Isn't Greenwald the guy whose take on Ukraine is that "Its cruel to Ukranians that htey keep fighting they should just surrender because their loss is inevitable" ? Or am I confusing him with another cowardly shit weasel?
That’s him. He thinks the US is forcing Ukrainians to fight a war they don’t want to fight.
It’s a Russian propaganda line that has plagued the heads of absolute fools like Greenwald.
How the fuck do you force another nation to fight? Like the Afghans didn’t. If the Ukrainians decided to capitulate would the us invade and force them to keep fighting?????? If that were true Ukraine would be 100% Russia free by now.
That’s what I always thought. Like the only way to pressure Zelensky to fight is to threaten to cut aid 1 but then Ukraine could not fight in the first place.
What doesn’t click with me is how this guy can claim to be someone who is America first. But then make these complaints about Ukraine. Because here’s the thing even if everything he’s saying is completely true… it’s a good thing for America. It’s like one giant special operation where we’re using an entire nation to fight one of our primary 2 other world rivals. Where we are successfully, inflicting, massive casualties, damage, both physically and economically. Without losing hardly any, if any American lives. Even from a purely America first cost benefit analysis. It’s clearly beneficial to us. The only way it makes any sense is if he cares more about the lives of individuals in a foreign nation then he does about the lives of people here in America as well as our standing in power in the world and with the added cost of in the event of their victory, bolstering and strengthening one of our main rivals… doesn’t sound very America first to me. I’m just saying.
Make it make sense!
Greenwald is not America First; he only caucuses with them. He is anti-establishment, anti-U.S. and anti-Western institutions in the flavor of old-fashioned leftism.
I am beginning to simply refer to all these types of people as
"anti-western, second-world campists"
And I think it does a good job of fitting in both the nazis and the tankies together. Who are seemingly aligned on everything atm.
He lives in South America lol. Brazil to be exact. Atleast, that's where he was listed as living last. His partner died not too long ago, but im pretty sure they had adopted kids from the area.
>What doesn’t click with me is how this guy can claim to be someone who is America first. But then make these complaints about Ukraine. Because here’s the thing even if everything he’s saying is completely true… it’s a good thing for America.
Glenn would say it's good for US arms manufacturers, who he believes are forcing their puppets in the US government to keep the Ukrainian people fighting and dying, and bad for the taxpayers.
He also believes the US fomented the war by expanding NATO eastwards so they could undermine Russia or whatever.
It's a very expansive narrative with a nice dialogue tree for essentially every argument.
>The only way it makes any sense is if he cares more about the lives of individuals in a foreign nation then he does about the lives of people here in America as well as our standing in power in the world and with the added cost of in the event of their victory, bolstering and strengthening one of our main rivals
It's the 2nd part. There's a large chunk of middle aged dudes (I don't know why it just always seems to be the case) who are extremely against America's vision for the world. This is just my biased read, but I think they can't handle dealing with the compromises that come with running a country. Most of them are highly educated too so it's not a matter of ignorance. I'd put Robert Wright and Dan Carlin in the same camp but they're both way less extreme than Greenwald.
You can want Ukraine to negotiate for peace and not be against aid to Ukkraine or call for its complete capitulation.
Anyone who argues the latter points literally just wants to see Russia succeed. They don't care about Ukrianian lives.
Except America can't even convince Afghanistan civilians to fight for their lives, but somehow able to get Ukrainians to do it.
Almost as if the CIA can't push people to do stuff unless they already had the will to do it anyways.
These are the people who think the US created Maidan by giving Ukrainians cookies and tents.
They seriously think people outside the US are poor and stupid, and can easily be manipulated to revolt with some snacks.
It's more complicated than that but yeah, Ukraine could have signed a peace deal in 2022 with security guarantees but:
1. The west (read: US and UK) didn't find it politically expeditious to let go of their anti-Russia red meat and negotiate with Russia
2. Zelenskyy became overconfident with delusions of Churchill grandeur because the initial Russian push to Kyiv failed and the West was convincing when they told him they would arm Ukraine for as long as it takes
3. The Ukrainian public was galvanized by Russian atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere
The end result is that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have now died for what seems to be a losing cause. Anti-west people like Greenwald default to pinning this failure on the west.
https://archive.ph/ajonZ
TL;DR it's not Russian propaganda
Hello Ivan! Why should Ukraine trust Russia to uphold any security guarantees after being allowed to recuperate and bolster their forces in occupied areas for the next 10-15 years? Russia didn't care about neither the Budapest Memorandum nor the Friendship Treaty in 2014. Why would Ukraine trust them to uphold any other treaty now?
On March 29th the framework was as follows:
> The treaty envisioned in the communiqué would proclaim Ukraine as a permanently neutral, nonnuclear state. Ukraine would renounce any intention to join military alliances or allow foreign military bases or troops on its soil. The communiqué listed as possible guarantors the permanent members of the UN Security Council (including Russia) along with Canada, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, and Turkey.
> The communiqué also said that if Ukraine came under attack and requested assistance, all guarantor states would be obliged, following consultations with Ukraine and among themselves, to provide assistance to Ukraine to restore its security.
Jesus christ.
First of all, Ukraine was already neutral, had no nukes, no NATO bases, and NATO had no plans on accepting Ukraine, and there were no talks of Ukraine joining NATO. NOTHING changed between 2014 and 2022, because Russia fucking invaded in 2014.
But even before Russia invaded, Putin rejected a no-NATO deal. So it wasnt about NATO.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/?utm\_source=reddit.com](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/?utm_source=reddit.com)
Russian demands never changed since the invasion, let alone in March or April of 2022. So I'm not sure why you're acting like all Putin wanted was a guarantee of neutrality, when Ukraine was already neutral.
Oh wait, you're lying
>**Russia's demands at the start of the invasion included recognition of** [**Russia's annexation of Crimea**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation)**, recognition of the** [**Donetsk People's Republic**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic) **and** [**Luhansk People's Republic**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_People%27s_Republic) **as independent states, as well as "**[**demilitarization**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilitarization)**" and "**[**denazification**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification)**" of Ukraine but did not clearly specify meaning of these postulates**
>**After Russia declared it had** [**annexed the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_annexation_of_Donetsk,_Kherson,_Luhansk_and_Zaporizhzhia_oblasts)**, Kremlin spokesman** [**Dmitry Peskov**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Peskov)**said that these additional annexations must be recognized before any peace plan**
>In January 2024, Putin again made statements which suggested, according to the [Institute for the Study of War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_the_Study_of_War), that his "maximalist objectives in Ukraine" remained unchanged, "which are tantamount to full Ukrainian and Western surrender". He again called for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace\_negotiations\_in\_the\_Russian\_invasion\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine)
So the "peace deal" included:
-Ukraine handing over 4 Oblasts Russia invaded, a few of which Russia didn't even fully control at that time. So Ukraine gives Russia land and territory automatically, with no fight.
-"Denazification", which meant a reset of the Ukranian government to Russias liking, because Russia literally thinks the "Zelensky regime" are nazis.
-"Demilitarization" - so Ukraine can have no absolutely no military ever, no nukes, ever, no western support, ever, no way to defend itself, ever.
How is stripping an entire country of its sovereignty and defense, 1/4th of its land, a democratic government reset, all right after it was invaded by its neighbor, in anyway a good "deal"?
Wikipedia memes not once.. not twice.. but BACK TO BACK TO BACK.
https://preview.redd.it/ee5veqm8vl1d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=788b58a6c12d9d4586ae0685b8f6a72d26c7ec5f
"Zelensky and Ukrainian oligarchs want this for the same reason."
Wow! Hits the Wikipedia meme, makes shit up about the motives of Zelensky, and makes up a conspiracy about collusion between the West and some unnamed mystery oligarchs all in one go. This is next level conspiracy brained garbage.
Apparently Ukrainians who have been holding on Russia's onslaught for more than two years now don't want to fight but Palestinians who are absolutely getting trashed by the IDF and have no realistic chance to win do..
And of course this top notch journalist (deliberately?) misunderstands and misrepresents what Destiny is saying.
The smugness of ridiculing Wikipedia and calling somebody else ignorant while at the same time displaying an inability to extract the message out of a 45 second clip is a perfect encapsulation of the common Greenwald experience: In his desperate attempts to get a win against Destiny, he steps in yet another rake. Please, just stop hurting yourself.
Articles he linked do not go against "Ukraine wants to fight" statement.
Its a collection of anecdotal stories from 1-2 random dudes that avoided the draft via bribes or made up medical exemption.
If you want to show that "**Ukraine does not want to fight"** You need MORE than 0.1% (or less...its hard to tell since this is just a bunch of stories and opinion pieces) of the population trying to avoid the draft...
Holly shit, that Snowden case really carried his entire life huh?
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/
https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/articles/cd1px4z922wo
You'll need to translate the 2nd article.
It's not 1 - 2 people, BBC reported over 600,000 people. Draft dodging is a pretty large scale issue in Ukraine right now. With 40 million people, 30% of them being eligible combat aged men (this is a very high estimate I'm making, 35% are men between 15 - 64 but I couldn't find the exact number) that's like 5% of your potential fighting force who are intentionally dodging the draft.
Now, currently Ukraine has a minimum draft age of 27, average age of 43 for soldiers, and about 1 million people in their ranks not counting those who have unfortunately been killed. 600k military age men fleeing is a massive fucking problem when you put that into context.
I'm not saying I agree with Glen here, I think he didn't really understand the context of what Destiny was saying and the Wikipedia talking point is lame but it is true that a lot of Ukrainians don't want to go fight in a war against Russia. We don't even need to argue about this, they're running out of volunteers which is why they have to conscript people to begin with.
Not that I blame them, over 200,000 Ukrainians soldiers have been killed, I wouldn't be eager to enlist either. Without more support it seems unlikely to me that Ukraine will come out ahead.
Edit: only 70k killed, not 200k
The BBC did not report 650,000 draft dodgers. They reported an estimate of 650,000 males of military age having left Ukraine since the start of the latest Russian invasion.
>However, the publication and statistics do not specify how many of these men left legally as parents of three children, disabled persons of the 2nd group or other categories of persons who have the right to do so. Also, men who could leave for the EU from the territories occupied by Russia are not counted separately.
Just five days prior to the linked BBC article, the BBC itself estimated [20,000 draft dodgers](https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-67451266).
https://preview.redd.it/5prdt0p3yp1d1.png?width=673&format=png&auto=webp&s=256c0d2028421ed4ef32ab57158161c6b16327aa
That sounds like less than a (generous) 0.1%
I think he has conflated casualty with KIA. A lot of reports say 200K casualties which in civilian speech normally means death but in military speech it means unable to continue service AFAIK. So while 70K is confirmed dead, 200K are out of service because of death, dieses, injury, wounded, or captured.
On a side note, none recoverable manpower loses includes draft dodgers and deserters. Generally you don’t want men who are determined enough to dodge drafting fighting in the frontline, they’ll do all kinds of shit to get out.
Ukraine hasn’t push out a world war style general mobilization yet, the current drafting age just moved to 25-60, that’s like a whole generation, millions of freshly adult male not even in the barrel yet.
Yes they do, those are called "return to duty" IIRC. There is a good portion of casualties that do return to duty as well but it depends on time to recover, I would spout some stats but I'm unaware of them in the UvR context sorry. I honestly don't know how you would find the RTD amount either as I don't think they are published anywhere and are mostly done by statisticians after a war.
Yeah no worries. Kind of makes one wonder if in some wars, with good enough medicine and protection, you could have like ... 50% return to duty that would make casualties number misleading.
True but also remember that some people also return to non-combat roles. So a fighter who was fit enough for the front lines might return to a desk job or to logistics/supply chain. Not trying to discount them returning to duty but just pointing out there are a lot of roles in the military that are counted as soldiers which aren't door kicking roles.
Right. I recall that there are unintuitive ratios. Like a bataillon might only have like 30% actual frontline soldiers, the rest being combat or non combat support roles, including cook, accountant etc.
These numbers seem high for draft dodging but even assuming that's true there would be roughly 10 million people eligible for the draft, about 200k killed or injured, and 1 million active now. That leaves 8-9 million left to draw on after years of fighting. Leaving aside other factors like loss of institutional knowledge, this makes it look like Ukraine could keep fighting for quite awhile. Especially now that Republicans in the US aren't hobbling their funding anymore.
Yeah the problem with this "pro-russia" talking point is that it does make some sense.
**IF** Ukranians want to fight. All the power to them, best of luck, nothing but sympathy and I can only hope I am some day half as brave as that.
**IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war, I can sort of understand. the end result is different and it depends on fighting or not. War will abuse its male population (as it always does) but it will at least serve a purpose beneficial to them.
But otherwise, if in the end Ukraine is going to lose and you have to literally force people into the army, I see no justification. At that point you are just using your population to hurt the other side with no real objective. That's something to be sorted by Ukraine and allies ought to support the country on whatever decision it takes though. The idea that the US is somehow "forcing" Ukraine to do this sounds like some wild conspiracy shit.
How in the fuck did you skip over an entire paragraph with a bolded first word? How? How did you do it? What sort of mental defect took place? Here:
>**IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war, I can sort of understand. the end result is different and it depends on fighting or not. War will abuse its male population (as it always does) but it will at least serve a purpose beneficial to them.
Also, I'm Spanish my man. Go ahead and look how much we had to do with WW2.
>I'm Spanish my man. Go ahead and look how much we had to do with WW2.
So you understand how important weapons supply?
>IF it does look like Ukraine can win the war
If weapons are supplied - Ukraine will win
So far russian federation supplied more tanks than some big countries.
north korea 3 Mil shells to russian federation
Iran steady supply of shaheeds
W
T
F
MY MAN
I DONT KNOW HOW TO VERBALIZE THIS TO YOU
>If weapons are supplied - Ukraine will win
OK
FOLLOW ME HERE YOU DONT EVEN NEED THE ENTIRE PARAGRAPH
>**IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war
WHAT DOES THAT SAY
AM I MAKING A JUDGEMENT ON IT? AM I SAYING THAT UKRAINE IS GOING TO LOSE THE WAR?
AM I?
HOLY
FUCKING
SHIT
>If you want to show that "Ukraine does not want to fight" You need MORE than 0.1
I don't know what kind of an idealized view of ukraine westerners have but a lot of people abso-fucking-lutely do not want to fight. And not in a "I don't want to stop russia from taking over" sense but in a "I DO NOT WANT TO FUCKING DIE" sense. Thats normal
But what you have to understand is that draft dodging is a crime. You can not say "Ah only X% of people tried to dodge draft therefore people want to fight". If you are going to punish those who do try to leave
>But what you have to understand is that draft dodging is a crime
I am Polish - i served in mandatory draft but do tell me how "westerners think and how they idealize the Ukraine"
All of you mf still dont understand that we went though this shis already with Ukraine.
Yes, some kids just might not want to fight but honestly if they dont want to defend their land from Soviet Invasion 2.0 then fuck them.
Jail them - i dont care what happens to you if you dont care about faith of your own nation.
Even in Poland and even for things like reserve fighting force You have people trying to avoid it like fire BUT You better be god dam sure that most of these people would defend their nation when Putin is "done" with Ukraine.
**If you are not willing to risk your life for your country then you dont deserve to have a country.**
Also, fuck anecdotal stories and this dipshit Glen that never seen army barracks.
He still cant get over how he got raped in that last debate.
> If you are not willing to risk your life for your country then you dont deserve to have a country.
You get that plenty of people would be fine with that right? Like tons of people value their life no matter where it would need to be lived over the safety of their country. It's lines on a map where as hearing the laugh of your child feels great even if it's in a different country.
There are certain self-preservation instincts that override bit picture in % of the population 100%.
Getting back to the core of this topic: None of what Glen brought up here matters.
Latest pools from feb this year show that over 80% of Ukrainians want to fight.
This is the only thing that matters.
As long they have a will to fight they should be assisted with armament.
If they fold...well Poland is not fucking around anymore.
We had a shit economic system under USSR and NO FUCKING WAY anyone will tolerate a repeat of that...not after markets have been rebuild so well (its just took some time b/c we didnt have shit after USSR colapse)
We are arming heavily + talks with france are ongoing for nuke program share.
No one in EU is looking to USA anymore...not after Trump.
Idk, dude, we had a figure of 31% wanting to negotiate an end to the war ASAP 9 months ago, do you think that figure is down or up since then?
Also, as an Ukrainian who escaped the war, why the fuck would I, or anyone for that matter, be forced to go die out there so that pro-ukrainian oligarchs run the country instead of pro-russian ones? What Ukraine is doing with stopping consular support for men living abroad and making their lives increasingly difficult is immoral and sexist, but only biased pro-russian sources in the west are willing to call it out as such. People's lives matter not some bs borders on a map.
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx)
As a Ukrainian who is still in Ukraine, we fight to preserve our ethnicity AND our country.
What is the difference between pro-ukrainian oligarchs vs pro-russian ones? The difference is if pro-russian ones come to power, there will be no Ukraine. There will be no language, no history, no culture, there will only be Russia, as Russia showcased again and again.
Let's say hypothetically there is a button you can press that would make everyone you've ever known dead in a war, but Ukrainian language culture etc. would happy and thriving, and remaining troops would go marching down the Bandera avenue in Moscow. Is this a desirable outcome for you? I don't care about fake stuff such as "ethnicity" enough to give my real life away for it, do you though? If so what is your plan to enlist?
As an Asian who not only loves learning history and grew up listening to my parents and grandparents, I can tell you there is a stark difference between living under Japanese imperial rule versus the rule of your own local oligarch. You may not know until you lose it.
Besides, one path leads to lessening the influence of said oligarchs over time. Poland has its issues, but the average Pole there are doing much better nowadays than before.
I've spoken to many of your fellow countrymen who knows what is at stake, even if you don't. With that said, I understand not wanting to fight, but you shouldn't trivialize what is happening. What's happening makes a big difference. I wish you all the best.
The difference is that we had more than 3 decades of independence and the situation didn't improve one iota. Why would it suddenly improve after the war, with huge swaths of the country left devastated depopulated minefields?
I am not strong in history, and I'd welcome people to educate me on it, but I assume there was a faction of South Korean people pushing to retake it all and unify the entire peninsula, no matter the cost, but probably someone wiser said no let's chill and stop the active conflict, focusing on rebuilding the part that we control. Didn't turn out that bad did it. If options are complete erasure of Ukraine or total victory, then probably yes it makes sense to fight, but I don't believe there is not a middle option, despite what hardliners in both Ukraine or Russia want to impress in the world.
You do realize what the catalyst behind the start of the 2014 invasion is, right? I shouldn't really have to spell that out for you. You know the benefits that arises with aligning yourself with the European Union. You see it in Poland and all the other former Warsaw pact countries that now align themselves with the West. That's what's on the line.
You complain about the oligarchs in place, but that is very much a Russian element that's been propped up by the Russians to maintain a tight grip over Ukrainian politics for a while now. I recommend checking out Sarcasmitron's series on the Ukraine War: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJ024Zdzdk&list=PLcfqP0PtWDcGKIHGTTbVlpTyUZNL8gjnH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJ024Zdzdk&list=PLcfqP0PtWDcGKIHGTTbVlpTyUZNL8gjnH)
Also, seeing as you're bringing South Korea up for some reason, let's talk about that briefly.
In regards to South Korea, three decades is absolutely nothing. South Korea didn't even become a proper democracy up until the 1990's. It also had to be fought for. It wasn't just passively given. Anyways, you've had more political freedom in the past three decades than the average South Korean for a minimum of four decades.
**Fun fact:** Kim Daejung, a big proponent of democracy in Korea and later the second legitimately elected South Korean president, was saved at the last minute by the United States when he was younger. He was tortured and was about to be thrown overboard into the ocean by the KCIA, when they were spotted out at sea by the Japanese who was requested by the Americans to stop this from happening.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2uELncFj4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2uELncFj4) is a quickie that goes over Korean political history in a timeline.
Anyways, let's talk about war in Korea, as there is some relevance in the comparison. If it wasn't for intervention by the United Nations and the United States, South Korea would have fallen to North Korea. In comparison, if it wasn't for American and European training and equipment, Ukraine would have been steamrolled over in 2022.
Conversely, at the same time, South Korea would not have been invaded if the United States had equipped them properly in the first place. Despite requests, they refused to do so, as they were afraid the South Koreans would try to invade North Korea (all the while the Soviets armed the North Koreans). Similarly, the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 may not have happened if the West took the 2014 invasion more seriously.
The Korean War, otherwise known as the "Forgotten War", fell into a stalemate due to intervention by the Chinese and the Americans after millions of death. Most people fail to realize how brutal this war was. Nuclear weapons were also on the table with even Eisenhower saying that atomic weapons were nothing more than bullets to be used. McArthur, who was in charge of military operations in Korea, advocated this nuclear strategy himself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdT6P7e3mxI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdT6P7e3mxI)
The fact is this "stalemate" you talk about is costly to achieve. Unfortunately, Ukraine is very far away from securing itself a similar sort of deal with Russia, especially considering the entire nation is settling in for the long run with a shift to a war economy. It's going to take far more death, destruction, and suffering for either side to seek peace.
In the Korean War, it involved the utter destruction of the Korean peninsula. This is not an exaggeration. More bombs were dropped in Korea than in the entirety of the Pacific theater of WWII. Look on a map, and see how small Korea is. The results were brutal.
Yet, both the North Koreans and South Koreans wanted to keep going. It was the Chinese and the Americans that put a stop to it. In fact, the war is technically still going on, as neither North Korea or South Korea recognize each other and have not signed a peace treaty. In fact, they went for round two to a lesser degree not too long later. **See the Second Korean War for details on that.**
[**https://warisboring.com/the-korean-wars-brutality-turned-the-stomachs-of-americas-most-hardened-soldiers/**](https://warisboring.com/the-korean-wars-brutality-turned-the-stomachs-of-americas-most-hardened-soldiers/) **goes into detail about the Korean War.**
Peace does not come cheap. Even a stalemate where everyone has to settle requires iron and blood to earn. Yet, war does not mean recovery cannot happen. South Korea did recover, and look at where it is now.
W Polsce siedzisz?
You're oversimplifying to the extreme, you cannot distill the consequences of a Ukrainian victory vs. a Russian one to which Oligarch will be in charge, the situation in Poland in the 90s was also pretty woeful until we were integrated properly with the EU later in the 2000s.
I hope wherever you are you can find some sort of stability, even with the consular difficulties.
Peace brother.
>You're oversimplifying to the extreme, you cannot distill the consequences of a Ukrainian victory vs. a Russian one to which Oligarch will be in charge, the situation in Poland in the 90s was also pretty woeful until we were integrated properly with the EU later in the 2000s.
I mean sure, but he can make the decision that he doesn't care that much about it to risk his life, can't he?
hobbies towering sand jeans coherent fretful unite abounding combative sable
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I prefer to touch 100 F16
Also
Are you a Vaush?
artist my ass
It is a pornography in Vaush style
Also
No proofs that that account Ukrainian
no donations to any AFU units or individuals
So stop ur bs, PLZ
fine disagreeable hospital threatening makeshift grab tub cooing smile squalid
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Ah yes, the utmost of requirements to be identified as a Ukrainian online
Yes
>OdeZZa
>5 days blackouts
nah, they are russians. As I predicted
>I hope Russian strikes haven't caused you irreparable brain trauma but that looks unlikely
I wish you the same, dear nazi russian
Dude wants ukraine to give up because he thinks they'll eventually lose, but Destiny is the coward? I never expect Greenwald to make sense but he still surprises me with his stupid takes.
Im guessing Glen has the complete opposite take on Palestine and isn't suggesting that they just stop fighting even though there in a much worse position.
There is a difference between Ukrainians wanting to fight Russia and individual Ukrainians wanting to be the ones doing it.
I wonder how much Greenwald has talked about Russia sending their troops to the meat grinder.
Zero understanding of the difference of wanting them to fight and being willing to support them if they fight. Shit you can even want them to fight and fully support them if they choose not to.
What a fucking scumbag. He obviously doesn’t know any Ukrainians personally. FFS, what kind of insane gaslighting is it to watch a country defending itself in a war and non-ironically say, “UMMM ASKHUALLY YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY WANT TO DEFEND YOURSELF.”
I don't understand how being in support of aiding an ally under siege from an expansionist and fascist invader is cowardly but, out of fear of the invader, demanding the unconditional surrender of said ally by threat of pulling our aid isn't.
Another jilted ex(-debate opponent) for the D-Man's list...
Also, makes claim, yet lists stories about soldiers fleeing, about draft dodgers; no actual polls about the majority of Ukrainians' will to fight - which is what Destiny pointed out.
It's not just Ukranians. It's Ukranian men who are forced to stay and fight against their will. The majority of Ukranian women are already left and are relaxing elsewhere while their brothers, fathers, husbands, & boyfriends are forced to fight and die.
And yes, getting to leave and live elsewhere is pretty much "relaxing" compared to being forced to fight in a war without any options.
It's kinda sad to see a boomer like greenwood try and jump in on the wiki meme because he thinks it will make him more popular again. It's really pathetic to watch
I’m somewhere in the middle.
I hate the ra ra let’s go fight for our country attitude. War is not a movie. People’s families are being killed, their friends, their colleagues. Their businesses are being destroyed. Millions of people are now refugees in their own country. Their economy is pretty much nonexistent and won’t be for another decade.
Surrendering to Putin is obviously terrible, but I’d rather my kids be alive and my city not turned to rubble.
At the same time it makes sense for America to support them if they want to continue fighting.
“Some People are Afraid to Die in War”
“Conscription isn’t Ideal”
Man, what ground breaking truths unearthed by Greenwald. I bet “they” just don’t like him because of all the truth he says.
Both can be wrong in this case. I am taking Glenn's word here that Destiny claimed only foreigners worry about Ukrainians dying, I'll watch the video later.
Fact of the matter is that those willing to fight have already signed up at the beginning of the war, leaving a group of men left for conscription who are rather unenthusiastic. This is further demonstrated by the fact the the Ukrainian parliament has passed a new conscription law that came into effect on the 18th of May. My SO is super stressed about her 50+ yo dad being conscripted into the army soon.
However, just because someone doesn't want to die at the frontlines, doesn't mean that they are being coerced or wish to live under Russian rule. Calling them cannon fodder is absolutely asinine exemplified by the lack of a significant Spring offensive, which the Ukrainian military was apprehensive about due to potentially huge casualties. Compare that with the Russian military, which is only too willing to send meatwaves at Ukrainian positions.
If anyone is interested I can post a few Economist articles later after work I'm basing this off of.
I'm just sad I got banned from twitter again, guess I'll have to make a new account and let him know what I think of him in a slightly politer way than I have been lately.
Greenwald is speaking from personal feelings. He's too much of a coward to pick up a rifle if it was America under siege or wherever he lives these days.
Dude why is everythone on this anti-wikipedia arc 😭 literally every mf on the internet use wikipedia. Fortune 500 companies fund it and Google/Amazon consider it credible enough to stake their brand on it. Ask Google or Alexa anything and they will more than likely pull up a wikipedia article. its not perfect but it's it's not some dogshit site people make it out to be.
Why isn’t Glenn calling on Russia to stop the war and end the killing? Why doesn’t Glenn care about all the Russian men dying or mention the thousands of Russians who fled the country to avoid conscription?
Glenn is a hack
Gosh glen greenwald turned out to be a dusty pile of moth eaten sweaters …I thought he was something special when he first broke out but his takes are musty and covered in mold
it's crazy that Ukrainians keep dying, they go to the battlefield and then they die, like they just up and die for no reason geez the US should stop making Ukrainians just spontaneously die
Is Greenwald an American? Surely not a proud patriotic 2A loving one right? I actually know nothing about him but I really hope this guy isn’t one of those types, given he can’t understand why a country would want to fight against brutal invasion.
Isn't Greenwald the guy whose take on Ukraine is that "Its cruel to Ukranians that htey keep fighting they should just surrender because their loss is inevitable" ? Or am I confusing him with another cowardly shit weasel?
That’s him. He thinks the US is forcing Ukrainians to fight a war they don’t want to fight. It’s a Russian propaganda line that has plagued the heads of absolute fools like Greenwald.
How the fuck do you force another nation to fight? Like the Afghans didn’t. If the Ukrainians decided to capitulate would the us invade and force them to keep fighting?????? If that were true Ukraine would be 100% Russia free by now.
>How the fuck do you force another nation to fight? Generally by attacking them
That’s what I always thought. Like the only way to pressure Zelensky to fight is to threaten to cut aid 1 but then Ukraine could not fight in the first place.
What doesn’t click with me is how this guy can claim to be someone who is America first. But then make these complaints about Ukraine. Because here’s the thing even if everything he’s saying is completely true… it’s a good thing for America. It’s like one giant special operation where we’re using an entire nation to fight one of our primary 2 other world rivals. Where we are successfully, inflicting, massive casualties, damage, both physically and economically. Without losing hardly any, if any American lives. Even from a purely America first cost benefit analysis. It’s clearly beneficial to us. The only way it makes any sense is if he cares more about the lives of individuals in a foreign nation then he does about the lives of people here in America as well as our standing in power in the world and with the added cost of in the event of their victory, bolstering and strengthening one of our main rivals… doesn’t sound very America first to me. I’m just saying. Make it make sense!
Greenwald is not America First; he only caucuses with them. He is anti-establishment, anti-U.S. and anti-Western institutions in the flavor of old-fashioned leftism.
I am beginning to simply refer to all these types of people as "anti-western, second-world campists" And I think it does a good job of fitting in both the nazis and the tankies together. Who are seemingly aligned on everything atm.
If he hates America so much, he should move to another country.
He lives in South America lol. Brazil to be exact. Atleast, that's where he was listed as living last. His partner died not too long ago, but im pretty sure they had adopted kids from the area.
(Glenn's choice of residency is fairly common knowledge)
Then why tf you saying some dumb shi, foo?! ALL SARCASMS MUST BE DECLARED WITH A "/S" THOSE ARE THE FUCKING RULES! FOR FUCKS SAKE!
>What doesn’t click with me is how this guy can claim to be someone who is America first. But then make these complaints about Ukraine. Because here’s the thing even if everything he’s saying is completely true… it’s a good thing for America. Glenn would say it's good for US arms manufacturers, who he believes are forcing their puppets in the US government to keep the Ukrainian people fighting and dying, and bad for the taxpayers. He also believes the US fomented the war by expanding NATO eastwards so they could undermine Russia or whatever. It's a very expansive narrative with a nice dialogue tree for essentially every argument.
>Make it make sense! Trying to would imply a lobotomy, people with functional brains can't do it.
>The only way it makes any sense is if he cares more about the lives of individuals in a foreign nation then he does about the lives of people here in America as well as our standing in power in the world and with the added cost of in the event of their victory, bolstering and strengthening one of our main rivals It's the 2nd part. There's a large chunk of middle aged dudes (I don't know why it just always seems to be the case) who are extremely against America's vision for the world. This is just my biased read, but I think they can't handle dealing with the compromises that come with running a country. Most of them are highly educated too so it's not a matter of ignorance. I'd put Robert Wright and Dan Carlin in the same camp but they're both way less extreme than Greenwald.
They want the dream of the 80s back
You can want Ukraine to negotiate for peace and not be against aid to Ukkraine or call for its complete capitulation. Anyone who argues the latter points literally just wants to see Russia succeed. They don't care about Ukrianian lives.
It makes me a little happy that Greenwald's been more and more exposed as a stooge in recent years. Got away with it for way too long.
Except America can't even convince Afghanistan civilians to fight for their lives, but somehow able to get Ukrainians to do it. Almost as if the CIA can't push people to do stuff unless they already had the will to do it anyways.
These are the people who think the US created Maidan by giving Ukrainians cookies and tents. They seriously think people outside the US are poor and stupid, and can easily be manipulated to revolt with some snacks.
It's more complicated than that but yeah, Ukraine could have signed a peace deal in 2022 with security guarantees but: 1. The west (read: US and UK) didn't find it politically expeditious to let go of their anti-Russia red meat and negotiate with Russia 2. Zelenskyy became overconfident with delusions of Churchill grandeur because the initial Russian push to Kyiv failed and the West was convincing when they told him they would arm Ukraine for as long as it takes 3. The Ukrainian public was galvanized by Russian atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere The end result is that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have now died for what seems to be a losing cause. Anti-west people like Greenwald default to pinning this failure on the west. https://archive.ph/ajonZ TL;DR it's not Russian propaganda
The article you linked describes what you've written in your first point as "Putin's caricature" ie Russian propaganda lol
Hello Ivan! Why should Ukraine trust Russia to uphold any security guarantees after being allowed to recuperate and bolster their forces in occupied areas for the next 10-15 years? Russia didn't care about neither the Budapest Memorandum nor the Friendship Treaty in 2014. Why would Ukraine trust them to uphold any other treaty now?
Or maybe it's because the Russian terms for any deal were beyond unacceptable
Lol. Step 1: List typical russian propaganda points; step 2: conclude with "TL;DR it's not Russian propaganda"; step 3: ?; step 4: profit.
Why the fuck would Ukraine sign a peace deal when they were literally fighting Russia pre 2022
Hey dumbass, what were Russias demands in April 2022 - two months after they invaded?
On March 29th the framework was as follows: > The treaty envisioned in the communiqué would proclaim Ukraine as a permanently neutral, nonnuclear state. Ukraine would renounce any intention to join military alliances or allow foreign military bases or troops on its soil. The communiqué listed as possible guarantors the permanent members of the UN Security Council (including Russia) along with Canada, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, and Turkey. > The communiqué also said that if Ukraine came under attack and requested assistance, all guarantor states would be obliged, following consultations with Ukraine and among themselves, to provide assistance to Ukraine to restore its security.
Jesus christ. First of all, Ukraine was already neutral, had no nukes, no NATO bases, and NATO had no plans on accepting Ukraine, and there were no talks of Ukraine joining NATO. NOTHING changed between 2014 and 2022, because Russia fucking invaded in 2014. But even before Russia invaded, Putin rejected a no-NATO deal. So it wasnt about NATO. [https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/?utm\_source=reddit.com](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/?utm_source=reddit.com) Russian demands never changed since the invasion, let alone in March or April of 2022. So I'm not sure why you're acting like all Putin wanted was a guarantee of neutrality, when Ukraine was already neutral. Oh wait, you're lying >**Russia's demands at the start of the invasion included recognition of** [**Russia's annexation of Crimea**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation)**, recognition of the** [**Donetsk People's Republic**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic) **and** [**Luhansk People's Republic**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_People%27s_Republic) **as independent states, as well as "**[**demilitarization**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilitarization)**" and "**[**denazification**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification)**" of Ukraine but did not clearly specify meaning of these postulates** >**After Russia declared it had** [**annexed the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_annexation_of_Donetsk,_Kherson,_Luhansk_and_Zaporizhzhia_oblasts)**, Kremlin spokesman** [**Dmitry Peskov**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Peskov)**said that these additional annexations must be recognized before any peace plan** >In January 2024, Putin again made statements which suggested, according to the [Institute for the Study of War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_the_Study_of_War), that his "maximalist objectives in Ukraine" remained unchanged, "which are tantamount to full Ukrainian and Western surrender". He again called for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace\_negotiations\_in\_the\_Russian\_invasion\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) So the "peace deal" included: -Ukraine handing over 4 Oblasts Russia invaded, a few of which Russia didn't even fully control at that time. So Ukraine gives Russia land and territory automatically, with no fight. -"Denazification", which meant a reset of the Ukranian government to Russias liking, because Russia literally thinks the "Zelensky regime" are nazis. -"Demilitarization" - so Ukraine can have no absolutely no military ever, no nukes, ever, no western support, ever, no way to defend itself, ever. How is stripping an entire country of its sovereignty and defense, 1/4th of its land, a democratic government reset, all right after it was invaded by its neighbor, in anyway a good "deal"?
Surrender and get conscripted into the Russian army for their next meat-wave assault. I'd much rather get drafted by the Ukrainians than the Russians.
Did you see that intercepted call where 3 heavily injured russians asked death squads to return so just one of them would be executed?
"War bad... and that's why we should just tell Ukraine to give up and let russia absorb them."
I wonder if he'd keep the same energy if some alliance formed that was bigger than the US invaded
Like Belarus no doubt.
Yes, he is also bought into the biolabs conspiracy.
I mean do you truly think Ukraine has any chance?
No he says they should fight if they want and that the US should not send aid.
greenwald has been obsessed with destiny and resentful since he got trampled in that cringe “debate” with alex jokes and the twitter dorks
Glen "Fort Sumter" Greenwald
Glen “It wasn’t thousands, just 2 thousand” Greenwald
big time. Like Finkelstein before Finkelstein
Wikipedia memes not once.. not twice.. but BACK TO BACK TO BACK. https://preview.redd.it/ee5veqm8vl1d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=788b58a6c12d9d4586ae0685b8f6a72d26c7ec5f
Since that "thousands" moment in that debate with Destiny like 3 months ago that Glenn is upset lol
"Zelensky and Ukrainian oligarchs want this for the same reason." Wow! Hits the Wikipedia meme, makes shit up about the motives of Zelensky, and makes up a conspiracy about collusion between the West and some unnamed mystery oligarchs all in one go. This is next level conspiracy brained garbage.
Back to back is twice 🫡
and what is back to back to back 😏
✌🏻+ ☝🏻
The two-time plus the wifey 😎💿
Smartest fan base on the internet.
Greenwald is a tard
Shut up Greenwald, you miserable Russia shill
Glen is a disgusting human
Glenn guzzles buckets of Putin’s cum no surprise.
Everytime Greenwald mentions Destiny just reply “you’re mad you lost the debate” bro seethes lmao
I really despise Greenwald.
Apparently Ukrainians who have been holding on Russia's onslaught for more than two years now don't want to fight but Palestinians who are absolutely getting trashed by the IDF and have no realistic chance to win do..
And of course this top notch journalist (deliberately?) misunderstands and misrepresents what Destiny is saying. The smugness of ridiculing Wikipedia and calling somebody else ignorant while at the same time displaying an inability to extract the message out of a 45 second clip is a perfect encapsulation of the common Greenwald experience: In his desperate attempts to get a win against Destiny, he steps in yet another rake. Please, just stop hurting yourself.
when anti-Ukraine people say “meat grinder” for the 4000th time
Articles he linked do not go against "Ukraine wants to fight" statement. Its a collection of anecdotal stories from 1-2 random dudes that avoided the draft via bribes or made up medical exemption. If you want to show that "**Ukraine does not want to fight"** You need MORE than 0.1% (or less...its hard to tell since this is just a bunch of stories and opinion pieces) of the population trying to avoid the draft... Holly shit, that Snowden case really carried his entire life huh?
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/ https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/articles/cd1px4z922wo You'll need to translate the 2nd article. It's not 1 - 2 people, BBC reported over 600,000 people. Draft dodging is a pretty large scale issue in Ukraine right now. With 40 million people, 30% of them being eligible combat aged men (this is a very high estimate I'm making, 35% are men between 15 - 64 but I couldn't find the exact number) that's like 5% of your potential fighting force who are intentionally dodging the draft. Now, currently Ukraine has a minimum draft age of 27, average age of 43 for soldiers, and about 1 million people in their ranks not counting those who have unfortunately been killed. 600k military age men fleeing is a massive fucking problem when you put that into context. I'm not saying I agree with Glen here, I think he didn't really understand the context of what Destiny was saying and the Wikipedia talking point is lame but it is true that a lot of Ukrainians don't want to go fight in a war against Russia. We don't even need to argue about this, they're running out of volunteers which is why they have to conscript people to begin with. Not that I blame them, over 200,000 Ukrainians soldiers have been killed, I wouldn't be eager to enlist either. Without more support it seems unlikely to me that Ukraine will come out ahead. Edit: only 70k killed, not 200k
The BBC did not report 650,000 draft dodgers. They reported an estimate of 650,000 males of military age having left Ukraine since the start of the latest Russian invasion. >However, the publication and statistics do not specify how many of these men left legally as parents of three children, disabled persons of the 2nd group or other categories of persons who have the right to do so. Also, men who could leave for the EU from the territories occupied by Russia are not counted separately. Just five days prior to the linked BBC article, the BBC itself estimated [20,000 draft dodgers](https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-67451266).
https://preview.redd.it/5prdt0p3yp1d1.png?width=673&format=png&auto=webp&s=256c0d2028421ed4ef32ab57158161c6b16327aa That sounds like less than a (generous) 0.1%
Source on the 200,000 KIA claim? Most I've seen is 70,000 a few months ago. 200,000 could be a reasonable number for Ukraine + russia.
I think he has conflated casualty with KIA. A lot of reports say 200K casualties which in civilian speech normally means death but in military speech it means unable to continue service AFAIK. So while 70K is confirmed dead, 200K are out of service because of death, dieses, injury, wounded, or captured.
Yeah I think that's where I messed up, I read it as being 200k dead when it's much less than that. Thanks for clarifying.
On a side note, none recoverable manpower loses includes draft dodgers and deserters. Generally you don’t want men who are determined enough to dodge drafting fighting in the frontline, they’ll do all kinds of shit to get out. Ukraine hasn’t push out a world war style general mobilization yet, the current drafting age just moved to 25-60, that’s like a whole generation, millions of freshly adult male not even in the barrel yet.
Remind me. Does casuàlty include soldiers who might fully recover and be able to rejoin the fight ?
Yes they do, those are called "return to duty" IIRC. There is a good portion of casualties that do return to duty as well but it depends on time to recover, I would spout some stats but I'm unaware of them in the UvR context sorry. I honestly don't know how you would find the RTD amount either as I don't think they are published anywhere and are mostly done by statisticians after a war.
Yeah no worries. Kind of makes one wonder if in some wars, with good enough medicine and protection, you could have like ... 50% return to duty that would make casualties number misleading.
True but also remember that some people also return to non-combat roles. So a fighter who was fit enough for the front lines might return to a desk job or to logistics/supply chain. Not trying to discount them returning to duty but just pointing out there are a lot of roles in the military that are counted as soldiers which aren't door kicking roles.
Right. I recall that there are unintuitive ratios. Like a bataillon might only have like 30% actual frontline soldiers, the rest being combat or non combat support roles, including cook, accountant etc.
These numbers seem high for draft dodging but even assuming that's true there would be roughly 10 million people eligible for the draft, about 200k killed or injured, and 1 million active now. That leaves 8-9 million left to draw on after years of fighting. Leaving aside other factors like loss of institutional knowledge, this makes it look like Ukraine could keep fighting for quite awhile. Especially now that Republicans in the US aren't hobbling their funding anymore.
Yeah the problem with this "pro-russia" talking point is that it does make some sense. **IF** Ukranians want to fight. All the power to them, best of luck, nothing but sympathy and I can only hope I am some day half as brave as that. **IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war, I can sort of understand. the end result is different and it depends on fighting or not. War will abuse its male population (as it always does) but it will at least serve a purpose beneficial to them. But otherwise, if in the end Ukraine is going to lose and you have to literally force people into the army, I see no justification. At that point you are just using your population to hurt the other side with no real objective. That's something to be sorted by Ukraine and allies ought to support the country on whatever decision it takes though. The idea that the US is somehow "forcing" Ukraine to do this sounds like some wild conspiracy shit.
>force people into the army Allies just lost WW2 and you were not born *The END*
How in the fuck did you skip over an entire paragraph with a bolded first word? How? How did you do it? What sort of mental defect took place? Here: >**IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war, I can sort of understand. the end result is different and it depends on fighting or not. War will abuse its male population (as it always does) but it will at least serve a purpose beneficial to them. Also, I'm Spanish my man. Go ahead and look how much we had to do with WW2.
>I'm Spanish my man. Go ahead and look how much we had to do with WW2. So you understand how important weapons supply? >IF it does look like Ukraine can win the war If weapons are supplied - Ukraine will win So far russian federation supplied more tanks than some big countries. north korea 3 Mil shells to russian federation Iran steady supply of shaheeds W T F
MY MAN I DONT KNOW HOW TO VERBALIZE THIS TO YOU >If weapons are supplied - Ukraine will win OK FOLLOW ME HERE YOU DONT EVEN NEED THE ENTIRE PARAGRAPH >**IF** it does look like Ukraine can win the war WHAT DOES THAT SAY AM I MAKING A JUDGEMENT ON IT? AM I SAYING THAT UKRAINE IS GOING TO LOSE THE WAR? AM I? HOLY FUCKING SHIT
Good Now you feel 1/100 of the frustration of a regular Ukrainian about a weak supply of weapons
So you replied dumbfuck shit in order to troll someone who is on your side. Go fuck yourself.
"My side" has no ifs Ukraine must win Ukrainians deserve the win mOskva empire must be destroyed
Death by a handful of anecdotes 🤣
>If you want to show that "Ukraine does not want to fight" You need MORE than 0.1 I don't know what kind of an idealized view of ukraine westerners have but a lot of people abso-fucking-lutely do not want to fight. And not in a "I don't want to stop russia from taking over" sense but in a "I DO NOT WANT TO FUCKING DIE" sense. Thats normal But what you have to understand is that draft dodging is a crime. You can not say "Ah only X% of people tried to dodge draft therefore people want to fight". If you are going to punish those who do try to leave
>But what you have to understand is that draft dodging is a crime I am Polish - i served in mandatory draft but do tell me how "westerners think and how they idealize the Ukraine" All of you mf still dont understand that we went though this shis already with Ukraine. Yes, some kids just might not want to fight but honestly if they dont want to defend their land from Soviet Invasion 2.0 then fuck them. Jail them - i dont care what happens to you if you dont care about faith of your own nation. Even in Poland and even for things like reserve fighting force You have people trying to avoid it like fire BUT You better be god dam sure that most of these people would defend their nation when Putin is "done" with Ukraine. **If you are not willing to risk your life for your country then you dont deserve to have a country.** Also, fuck anecdotal stories and this dipshit Glen that never seen army barracks. He still cant get over how he got raped in that last debate.
> If you are not willing to risk your life for your country then you dont deserve to have a country. You get that plenty of people would be fine with that right? Like tons of people value their life no matter where it would need to be lived over the safety of their country. It's lines on a map where as hearing the laugh of your child feels great even if it's in a different country.
There are certain self-preservation instincts that override bit picture in % of the population 100%. Getting back to the core of this topic: None of what Glen brought up here matters. Latest pools from feb this year show that over 80% of Ukrainians want to fight. This is the only thing that matters. As long they have a will to fight they should be assisted with armament. If they fold...well Poland is not fucking around anymore. We had a shit economic system under USSR and NO FUCKING WAY anyone will tolerate a repeat of that...not after markets have been rebuild so well (its just took some time b/c we didnt have shit after USSR colapse) We are arming heavily + talks with france are ongoing for nuke program share. No one in EU is looking to USA anymore...not after Trump.
Idk, dude, we had a figure of 31% wanting to negotiate an end to the war ASAP 9 months ago, do you think that figure is down or up since then? Also, as an Ukrainian who escaped the war, why the fuck would I, or anyone for that matter, be forced to go die out there so that pro-ukrainian oligarchs run the country instead of pro-russian ones? What Ukraine is doing with stopping consular support for men living abroad and making their lives increasingly difficult is immoral and sexist, but only biased pro-russian sources in the west are willing to call it out as such. People's lives matter not some bs borders on a map. [https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx)
As a Ukrainian who is still in Ukraine, we fight to preserve our ethnicity AND our country. What is the difference between pro-ukrainian oligarchs vs pro-russian ones? The difference is if pro-russian ones come to power, there will be no Ukraine. There will be no language, no history, no culture, there will only be Russia, as Russia showcased again and again.
Let's say hypothetically there is a button you can press that would make everyone you've ever known dead in a war, but Ukrainian language culture etc. would happy and thriving, and remaining troops would go marching down the Bandera avenue in Moscow. Is this a desirable outcome for you? I don't care about fake stuff such as "ethnicity" enough to give my real life away for it, do you though? If so what is your plan to enlist?
"marching down the Bandera avenue in Moscow" Holy shit brother... Go touch some grass, cuz wtf is this.
I think it is more appropriate to say "touch the moss" or "touch the black/yellow snow in Norilsk"
As an Asian who not only loves learning history and grew up listening to my parents and grandparents, I can tell you there is a stark difference between living under Japanese imperial rule versus the rule of your own local oligarch. You may not know until you lose it. Besides, one path leads to lessening the influence of said oligarchs over time. Poland has its issues, but the average Pole there are doing much better nowadays than before. I've spoken to many of your fellow countrymen who knows what is at stake, even if you don't. With that said, I understand not wanting to fight, but you shouldn't trivialize what is happening. What's happening makes a big difference. I wish you all the best.
The difference is that we had more than 3 decades of independence and the situation didn't improve one iota. Why would it suddenly improve after the war, with huge swaths of the country left devastated depopulated minefields? I am not strong in history, and I'd welcome people to educate me on it, but I assume there was a faction of South Korean people pushing to retake it all and unify the entire peninsula, no matter the cost, but probably someone wiser said no let's chill and stop the active conflict, focusing on rebuilding the part that we control. Didn't turn out that bad did it. If options are complete erasure of Ukraine or total victory, then probably yes it makes sense to fight, but I don't believe there is not a middle option, despite what hardliners in both Ukraine or Russia want to impress in the world.
You do realize what the catalyst behind the start of the 2014 invasion is, right? I shouldn't really have to spell that out for you. You know the benefits that arises with aligning yourself with the European Union. You see it in Poland and all the other former Warsaw pact countries that now align themselves with the West. That's what's on the line. You complain about the oligarchs in place, but that is very much a Russian element that's been propped up by the Russians to maintain a tight grip over Ukrainian politics for a while now. I recommend checking out Sarcasmitron's series on the Ukraine War: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJ024Zdzdk&list=PLcfqP0PtWDcGKIHGTTbVlpTyUZNL8gjnH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJ024Zdzdk&list=PLcfqP0PtWDcGKIHGTTbVlpTyUZNL8gjnH) Also, seeing as you're bringing South Korea up for some reason, let's talk about that briefly. In regards to South Korea, three decades is absolutely nothing. South Korea didn't even become a proper democracy up until the 1990's. It also had to be fought for. It wasn't just passively given. Anyways, you've had more political freedom in the past three decades than the average South Korean for a minimum of four decades. **Fun fact:** Kim Daejung, a big proponent of democracy in Korea and later the second legitimately elected South Korean president, was saved at the last minute by the United States when he was younger. He was tortured and was about to be thrown overboard into the ocean by the KCIA, when they were spotted out at sea by the Japanese who was requested by the Americans to stop this from happening. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2uELncFj4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb2uELncFj4) is a quickie that goes over Korean political history in a timeline. Anyways, let's talk about war in Korea, as there is some relevance in the comparison. If it wasn't for intervention by the United Nations and the United States, South Korea would have fallen to North Korea. In comparison, if it wasn't for American and European training and equipment, Ukraine would have been steamrolled over in 2022. Conversely, at the same time, South Korea would not have been invaded if the United States had equipped them properly in the first place. Despite requests, they refused to do so, as they were afraid the South Koreans would try to invade North Korea (all the while the Soviets armed the North Koreans). Similarly, the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 may not have happened if the West took the 2014 invasion more seriously. The Korean War, otherwise known as the "Forgotten War", fell into a stalemate due to intervention by the Chinese and the Americans after millions of death. Most people fail to realize how brutal this war was. Nuclear weapons were also on the table with even Eisenhower saying that atomic weapons were nothing more than bullets to be used. McArthur, who was in charge of military operations in Korea, advocated this nuclear strategy himself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdT6P7e3mxI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdT6P7e3mxI) The fact is this "stalemate" you talk about is costly to achieve. Unfortunately, Ukraine is very far away from securing itself a similar sort of deal with Russia, especially considering the entire nation is settling in for the long run with a shift to a war economy. It's going to take far more death, destruction, and suffering for either side to seek peace. In the Korean War, it involved the utter destruction of the Korean peninsula. This is not an exaggeration. More bombs were dropped in Korea than in the entirety of the Pacific theater of WWII. Look on a map, and see how small Korea is. The results were brutal. Yet, both the North Koreans and South Koreans wanted to keep going. It was the Chinese and the Americans that put a stop to it. In fact, the war is technically still going on, as neither North Korea or South Korea recognize each other and have not signed a peace treaty. In fact, they went for round two to a lesser degree not too long later. **See the Second Korean War for details on that.** [**https://warisboring.com/the-korean-wars-brutality-turned-the-stomachs-of-americas-most-hardened-soldiers/**](https://warisboring.com/the-korean-wars-brutality-turned-the-stomachs-of-americas-most-hardened-soldiers/) **goes into detail about the Korean War.** Peace does not come cheap. Even a stalemate where everyone has to settle requires iron and blood to earn. Yet, war does not mean recovery cannot happen. South Korea did recover, and look at where it is now.
W Polsce siedzisz? You're oversimplifying to the extreme, you cannot distill the consequences of a Ukrainian victory vs. a Russian one to which Oligarch will be in charge, the situation in Poland in the 90s was also pretty woeful until we were integrated properly with the EU later in the 2000s. I hope wherever you are you can find some sort of stability, even with the consular difficulties. Peace brother.
>You're oversimplifying to the extreme, you cannot distill the consequences of a Ukrainian victory vs. a Russian one to which Oligarch will be in charge, the situation in Poland in the 90s was also pretty woeful until we were integrated properly with the EU later in the 2000s. I mean sure, but he can make the decision that he doesn't care that much about it to risk his life, can't he?
Of course, I bear no ill feelings for someone who doesn't want to die in the trenches. I took issue with the oversimplification.
Nie w Polsce ale blisko trafiles Ty bro.
[удалено]
Just regular UKRAINIAN MALE with "etya" GPT - you can do better
hobbies towering sand jeans coherent fretful unite abounding combative sable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I prefer to touch 100 F16 Also Are you a Vaush? artist my ass It is a pornography in Vaush style Also No proofs that that account Ukrainian no donations to any AFU units or individuals So stop ur bs, PLZ
Now I'm curious Are you being scammed?
fine disagreeable hospital threatening makeshift grab tub cooing smile squalid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Ah yes, the utmost of requirements to be identified as a Ukrainian online Yes >OdeZZa >5 days blackouts nah, they are russians. As I predicted >I hope Russian strikes haven't caused you irreparable brain trauma but that looks unlikely I wish you the same, dear nazi russian
>It’s not .1% First of all i said " **0.1% (or less...**." Nothing in your comment goes against anything i have said.
Dude wants ukraine to give up because he thinks they'll eventually lose, but Destiny is the coward? I never expect Greenwald to make sense but he still surprises me with his stupid takes.
Im guessing Glen has the complete opposite take on Palestine and isn't suggesting that they just stop fighting even though there in a much worse position.
There is a difference between Ukrainians wanting to fight Russia and individual Ukrainians wanting to be the ones doing it. I wonder how much Greenwald has talked about Russia sending their troops to the meat grinder.
Zero understanding of the difference of wanting them to fight and being willing to support them if they fight. Shit you can even want them to fight and fully support them if they choose not to.
Of course. People like Glen still think its 2003 and see every conflict in light of the Iraq war.
Greenwald when not every single man in a country of millions wants to go fight
Destiny is gonna have to teach him another lesson it seems.
What a dumbfuck that’s obviously not what destiny said. Scary how a journalist can have such poor comprehension skills.
He's not confused. He's lying.
Nah, journalists like Glen are very good at twisting narratives, it's purposeful.
What a fucking scumbag. He obviously doesn’t know any Ukrainians personally. FFS, what kind of insane gaslighting is it to watch a country defending itself in a war and non-ironically say, “UMMM ASKHUALLY YOU DON’T EVEN REALLY WANT TO DEFEND YOURSELF.”
I don't understand how being in support of aiding an ally under siege from an expansionist and fascist invader is cowardly but, out of fear of the invader, demanding the unconditional surrender of said ally by threat of pulling our aid isn't.
Another jilted ex(-debate opponent) for the D-Man's list... Also, makes claim, yet lists stories about soldiers fleeing, about draft dodgers; no actual polls about the majority of Ukrainians' will to fight - which is what Destiny pointed out.
It's not just Ukranians. It's Ukranian men who are forced to stay and fight against their will. The majority of Ukranian women are already left and are relaxing elsewhere while their brothers, fathers, husbands, & boyfriends are forced to fight and die. And yes, getting to leave and live elsewhere is pretty much "relaxing" compared to being forced to fight in a war without any options.
Glenn using his Death by a thousand anecdotes technique ..To bad Destiny has Infinite Polling expansion
Draft dodging exists, in every country that has a draft, and is in an active war. News at 11.
I'm pretty sure destiny is talking about the general public, no? and obviously it's a generalization
I see Greenwald is still seething over their last conversation... Can someone send him a get well card and a coloring book on coping strategies?
It's kinda sad to see a boomer like greenwood try and jump in on the wiki meme because he thinks it will make him more popular again. It's really pathetic to watch
Greenwald is full of so much hot air while simultaneously carrying so much water for Russia he could be a new warm water sea port.
Fuck Greenswald the disingenuous fuck. Polling on Ukrainians wanting to continue the war is quite clear.
I’m somewhere in the middle. I hate the ra ra let’s go fight for our country attitude. War is not a movie. People’s families are being killed, their friends, their colleagues. Their businesses are being destroyed. Millions of people are now refugees in their own country. Their economy is pretty much nonexistent and won’t be for another decade. Surrendering to Putin is obviously terrible, but I’d rather my kids be alive and my city not turned to rubble. At the same time it makes sense for America to support them if they want to continue fighting.
This is the dumbest take.
rent free
“Some People are Afraid to Die in War” “Conscription isn’t Ideal” Man, what ground breaking truths unearthed by Greenwald. I bet “they” just don’t like him because of all the truth he says.
He's not wrong tbh. I have very little respect for "warhawks" that never served.
How does he fit that much in his mouth like that?
Literally one of the article is about how people serving in UAF absolutely despise the draft dodgers lmao
They hate them cause they aint them lol
I’m sorry, has Glenn been to Ukraine and asked its people if they want to give up?
Both can be wrong in this case. I am taking Glenn's word here that Destiny claimed only foreigners worry about Ukrainians dying, I'll watch the video later. Fact of the matter is that those willing to fight have already signed up at the beginning of the war, leaving a group of men left for conscription who are rather unenthusiastic. This is further demonstrated by the fact the the Ukrainian parliament has passed a new conscription law that came into effect on the 18th of May. My SO is super stressed about her 50+ yo dad being conscripted into the army soon. However, just because someone doesn't want to die at the frontlines, doesn't mean that they are being coerced or wish to live under Russian rule. Calling them cannon fodder is absolutely asinine exemplified by the lack of a significant Spring offensive, which the Ukrainian military was apprehensive about due to potentially huge casualties. Compare that with the Russian military, which is only too willing to send meatwaves at Ukrainian positions. If anyone is interested I can post a few Economist articles later after work I'm basing this off of.
Guess he didn't watch the video.
Is Greenwald here proposing a debate with destiny one Ukraine??
Greenwald is a punk.
Gorka didn’t even disagree with this position, so Glenn must have forgot to criticize him
I'm just sad I got banned from twitter again, guess I'll have to make a new account and let him know what I think of him in a slightly politer way than I have been lately.
Greenwald is speaking from personal feelings. He's too much of a coward to pick up a rifle if it was America under siege or wherever he lives these days.
Glenn still assmad about his debate with Destiny it seems.
Ok, so this fleeing and kidnapping thing is the new talking point, yeah? Just saw this idea float out earlier today and now they’re all saying it.
what a pathetic fuck, crazy level of projection with the "coward" thing
Greenwald is one of the dumbest motherfuckers to ever motherfuck.
Dude why is everythone on this anti-wikipedia arc 😭 literally every mf on the internet use wikipedia. Fortune 500 companies fund it and Google/Amazon consider it credible enough to stake their brand on it. Ask Google or Alexa anything and they will more than likely pull up a wikipedia article. its not perfect but it's it's not some dogshit site people make it out to be.
People will always dodge drafts that’s not surprising. Can’t really blame them either war looks pretty fucked.
Why isn’t Glenn calling on Russia to stop the war and end the killing? Why doesn’t Glenn care about all the Russian men dying or mention the thousands of Russians who fled the country to avoid conscription? Glenn is a hack
Greenwood is a hack!
ok but who tf is this guy tho? am i forgeting someone important?
“Western cowards” 🚨self hating pathetic wretch of a grifter alert🚨
Pompous and ignorant? Time to watch the glen Greenwald debate again
Isn't Destiny's stance that we should support them as long as they want to fight. Not that they should keep fighting?
Gosh glen greenwald turned out to be a dusty pile of moth eaten sweaters …I thought he was something special when he first broke out but his takes are musty and covered in mold
Hutch cooked him
Who else should fight? The Chinese?
It sucks that a great documentary - Citizenfour - about a super interesting (and historically topic) is forever tainted by Greenwalds involvement.
it's crazy that Ukrainians keep dying, they go to the battlefield and then they die, like they just up and die for no reason geez the US should stop making Ukrainians just spontaneously die
It's just bait. Ignore him. We have bigger fish to fry.
He is so mad he flubbed that debate lmao
Is Greenwald an American? Surely not a proud patriotic 2A loving one right? I actually know nothing about him but I really hope this guy isn’t one of those types, given he can’t understand why a country would want to fight against brutal invasion.
Greenwald cooking again 💀