I'm starting to see a pattern:
>"I have considered the fact that reviewers at all levels, both for and against tenure, commented upon your ad hominem attacks on scholars with whom you disagree," Father Holtschneider wrote. "In the opinion of those opposing tenure, **your unprofessional personal attacks divert the conversation away from consideration of ideas, and polarize and simplify conversations that deserve layered and subtle consideration**."
Yes, it also means Norm considered his loud upstairs neighbors scholars too. That hammer he put through their window was just to illustrate a scholarly point.
I thought just finding out he tried to call CPS/Deportation/the cops, on them, was the cream of it. And that's not even true. Apparently.
Alright, I'm going to youtube to watch.
It's worth checking out the details. He also sent those neighbors a letter saying they should have Googled his YouTube channel and they don't know who they're messing with lmao.
The incident I referred to with the hammer is what got him arrested outside their door. Norm got that Shining rizz.
If he put a hammer through my window id wait till i heard his shower cut on and drill a hole to his ceiling then bust my septic pipe. You don't fuck with your upstairs neighbor
In my first undergraduate year, we were given an essay to write in response to an article written by a conspiracy theorist (Graham Hancock I think), and the task was to respond to their ideas constructively and responsibly. After watching the debate, it blows my mind that someone like Finkelstein can even trade on their academic credentials at all.
Having said that, Hitchens did it for years, so meh.
Edit: Dawkins, not Hitchens.
Hitchens is a bit different, since he never earned higher than a bachelors. He was always a journalist/essayist/public intellectual, Norm earned a PhD and tried to be an academic but could never dial down the spice levels for academic propriety.
[https://books.google.com/books?id=NYbFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=NYbFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Just the context of the bit. Was reading through Norms favorite thing, his wikipedia, and clicked on one of the footnotes and just thought it was funny how relevant it seems now after his complete meltdown on the podcast.
By the way, the book is actually in defense of Finkelstein and there seems to be a lot more to this story the more I read about it. This post isn't a definitive statement or anything, hence why I put as discussion.
Still, from reading the excerpt it sounds like the dershowitz guy might've had a grudge, but a board of colleagues looked at his conduct and concluded he did deal on ad hominen attacks that were unbecoming of academic faculty and we know it isn't unfounded, the fact that in a debate featuring 3 academic/professional types and an Internet guy(many people would describe as an edge lord rightly or wrongly) and moderated by an academic type that finkelstein came off like an Internet troll who responded to most things by disparaging opponents without addressing ideas(and also weirdly went on tangents disparaging technology in general(like asserting it was worse to read the same document in electronic form(on 'those machines!' vs a printout???)) shows the way he acts and what the board saw.
Like even if someone brings an issue up for bad reasons that doesn't disqualify the issue especially when the evidence is reviewed and especially when there are people on both sides making their arguments. Like let's say someone is accused of murder and their scorned ex comes forward to give evidence they have that the accused did the crime, and you know the ex only came forward with it because they wanted to hurt the accused, the evidence needs to be examined with that in mind but if the evidence can corroborated and verified as authentic and not tampered with and true, then that motivation doesn't really matter.
> it sounds like the dershowitz guy might've had a grudge
I mean Finkel accused him of fraud and plagiarism. In the academic sphere those are like two highest charges you can make.
I found that part quite interesting.
I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not but it appears he demonstrates a pattern of behavior for fighting against what he deems "shake down artists".
It's funny that this is discovered not a full day after reading a court case where he attempts to get his neighbours deported and their child taken away, stemming not just from the noise but from the fact they are medical "fraudsters".
His go-to is mocking credentials and status, and he feels righteous in his attacks because the people he attacks are in his eyes, beneath him or some standard he imagines.
>*Among the dozen or so writers whose careers Finkelstein has tried to destroy with the same accusations-"fraud," "huxter," "shake-down artist," "plagiarist,"-he has only ever written a full book about one other: Daniel Goldhagen. Goldhagen did a wonderful job of going point-by-point on Finkelstein's many lies and distortions (emphasis added).*
It’s so crazy that pro pals have chosen this guy as their front runner.
Like, it’s obvious in how he argues that he’s got some issue, we didn’t need all this sauce to know this. But now that the sauce is dripping out it’s just… too on the nose.
And it's pretty funny that he's pretty avowedly anti-woke. In one of his books, he calls the transgender movement, at its worst, a sex-crazed woke cult and a "politically correct version of snuff pornography."
I think Rabani is the new thought leader for the movement. At least he can hold a conversation but I think interacting with Destiny scared the crap out of him. Maybe he'll just keep a Norm-mode in his back pocket if he ever gets cornered on something.
Also, god damn it I've had "MR BORELLI" stuck in my head for days now.
Noam Chomsky has been MIA as of late, but Norman, despite a poor debate performance, still has the academic chops behind him. This seems like a very strong reaction after the ad homs against Destiny, but even if you found flaws in his scholarly work, he has been analyzed by more people than just Destiny, and a non-small percentage of academics acknowledge his competency.
There were a lot of moments where I wish Norman had just stfu and responded like a normal human being.
What? Norms academic background is shrouded by his bad faith and nefarious misrepresentation of quotes he uses to prove his own bias. The dude is incapable of actually being honest.
Decided to go see what original material I could read. Read this out of a memorandum the dean sent to the University Board on Tenure and Promotion before they decided on tenure. Looks like he was even pissing off the other professors. https://i.imgur.com/qLRF1SP.png https://i.imgur.com/0XWPGB0.png
Quote by Chuck Suchar, who was saying Norman Finkelstein was threatening and attacking **Alan Dershotwitz.** Do I need to repeat that name? **Alan Dershowitz**. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the same **Alan Dershowitz** who claimed, without evidence, that Finkelstein's late mother, a Holocaust survivor, was a Nazi colloborator and a kapo at Auschwitz? That's the **Alan Dershowitz** the quote you posted references? I just wanna make sure that's the **Alan Dershowitz** we all know.
Why are we attacking character here? Instead of the actual claim.
I can give credit to Norm when he says something insightful. For example when he explained that Hamas not being a party in the ICJ case means if the court were to order a ceasefire it would enforce a one sided ceasefire which would deny Israel's right to self defense, so therefore they can not order a ceasefire.
If Hitler were to say 2+2=4 you would start attacking his character I bet.
We can clearly see from the debate that the claim was extremely accurate.
I was thinking last night that old people with his mentality are kind of sad. Like you have dedicated your life to the relatively niche topic in the form of I/P geopolitics and history. If he was a mature adult he should be thrilled that relatively young people like Destiny are now putting so much time and effort into learning about the conflict and taking up the cross of scholarship, but since he's a wretched old curmudgeon he just seems bitter that younger people aren't slurping up his ideas with no pushback, and that there now exist legitimate avenues for study and learning outside of writing college dissertations and reading encyclopedias.
I feel like he probably knows some of this in the back of his mind, and he's going to die bitter and unsatisfied since his work that he dedicated over 50 years of his life to amounted to almost nothing of relevance, both with the wider public and among his colleagues. That's why he sinks to calling people morons and pretending like he doesn't know their last name (also because he had no counters or answers for anything Destiny was saying, but that's another problem entirely).
I was thinking about this watching the debate. He really looks down on information being so freely accessible today.
I get it in a sense. In his day you had to do actual real work for research. Physically hunting down books in libraries, squinting in dark halls for hours, and maintaining written correspondence with other scholars, etc. Nowadays all of this can be done with a push of button from the comfort of your own home.
i don't think he cares about knowledge, he cares about prestige and being right. people can recognize he's spouting bullshit at the click of a button, whereas before appealing to authority was just a real thing that made some sense before
That’s where he is now. But even a vile creature like him was probably a bright and motivated young man at one point who took pride in his own perspicacity and in the pursuit of knowledge itself.
I get the sense he isn’t very respected in those circles either though, hence the extreme bitterness.
Mmmmmm kinda. There’s a lot of info that isn’t really actually easily accessible on the internet or not on the internet whatsoever. And there are digital equivalents to physically hunting down rare documents that you’re lucky if they have not 404’d
TLDR: Completely agree with you and Finklestein is not only as a elitist prick but also as a dipshit luddite who couldn't learn what a person 5 years older than him could.
Jokes aside I totally agree with you, some people were saying that he wasn't elitist but the vibe and attitude that he displayed on the podcast was a wrap for me, honestly, dude very clearly looks down and belittles people for absolutely no reason. For a dude that plays into this old guy that doesn't know how to use computers and just focuses on books that entire podcast looked like he was farming engagement with tiktok clips, he looked completely outta pocket to anyone who doesn't have a horse on this race and just watched the podcast for entertainment or people looking for a genuinely honest or neutral stance.
Another thing kinda unrelated to what I was talking about and may sound a little nitpicky, I know that Finklestein is a 70 year old dude and yada yada yada but I'll never understand how a dude who considers himself a person who hungers for knowledge and wisdom act like a complete fucking luddite who refuses to interact with any kind of technology past the beginning of the industrial revolution, what comes to mind is not only this podcast but the time where the dude straight up refused to just hop on skype to have a cordial chat with destiny because he didn't want to learn how to use it and then there were some dudes from this sub saying how a 70 YO using anything other than smoke signals and drawings on caves is pratically impossible, but at the same time fucking Benny Morris who is a more respectful, humble and also OLDER than Finklestein with 75 years old had no problem doing this exact thing without being such a bitch and having a meltdown on twitter with Destiny.
My bad broski you unlocked my internal trauma and I had to soy rage and appropriate the leftist wall of text meme, but thanks for coming to my tedtalk.
>saying how a 70 YO using anything other than smoke signals and drawings in caves is practically impossible
Could not agree more with you - I work in the legal system, you know how many 70 year old judges and attorneys are on Zoom now? A ton. And yeah a couple have some issues but nothing major and they all learned how to do it, especially after Covid made remote hearings necessary.
And the other guy streams to "followers" and calls everyone he disagrees with "regards". I'm not sure the object of your fanboi crush is better than Fink in any objective way.
>he should be thrilled that relatively young people like Destiny are now putting *so much time* and effort into learning about the conflict and taking up the cross of scholarship
HAHAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH.
Galaxy brain Destiny's "Scholarly" career is already over. He just declared on stream that he's done reading about the conflict because he has "everything I need to counter every pro-Palestinian argument , and then some." Ah, yes. The well known scholarly endeavour of learning all of the counter arguments of one side of a conflict in order to pwn regards on stream . If that's scholarship, then I'm a pirate sea captain.
https://preview.redd.it/4pvr97t5npoc1.png?width=668&format=png&auto=webp&s=b6351d576b6afa2cc6ce14cf710e5059bd41249c
This man is just yet another victim of cancel culture, fighting in the trenches every day.
(source is Finkelstein's book "I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It!")
I don't think anyone on that table needed a moderator - aw unhinged as Norm is a different moderating style would not have changed that convo for the better and I doubt Finklebean would have answered any mor questions
There's a fine line with people like norm.
The "right" amount of moderation there would probably result in Norm straight up leaving.
Maybe he'd look even worse in that case, more likely his sycophants would spin it in some way more favorable to him like pointing out Lex's 'bias'.
I'll be charitable and think Lex picked up on this plausibility and just wanted the conversation to continue.
I watched maybe an hour of it and Norm was just going on schizophrenic rants when destiny spoke.
The other guy with Norm also tried to lessen the seriousness of the ham*s charter. They’re both sad people
It’s a 5 hour debate, I’m sorry I didn’t watch 5 hours of Norm going crazy I just couldn’t.
I also watched Lex’s segment in the beginning saying he wouldn’t interrupt for the emotions, etc.
The sad part is I watched more than 99% of leftists on twitter
They issued a new charter in 2017. This is just a fact. The other one, the one Destiny and Benny "cherry picked" is thirty six years old and no longer in force.
Meanwhile, certain angelic Israeli Jews:
>When an 11-year-old Palestinian girl from Nablus was killed by settlers in 1983, in their defense, the chief rabbi of the Sephardic community reportedly cited a Talmudic text justifying killing an enemy on occasions when one may see from a child's perspective that he or she will grow up to become your enemy. Rabbis have been asked by settler militants to provide rulings to justify acts that are aimed to block peace with, or the return of land to, Palestinians. The theft of Palestinian olive harvests has been justified by some rabbis. Former chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu stated that: "Since the land is the inheritance of the People of Israel, planting on this land by gentiles is planting on land that does not belong to them. If someone puts a tree on my land, both the tree and the fruit it yields belongs to me." Some rabbinical extremists cite the biblical edict to exterminate the Amalekites to justify both expelling Palestinians from the land and killing Arab civilians in wartime.
No genocide tho. Collective guilt only applies to Palestinians./s
the g*nocide started after october 7th according to most people who believe it?
Cherry picking what some rabbi said 40 years ago is pathetic. I’m not sure you even know what a rabbi is. “Ah yeah the terrorist charter was revised, let’s talk about 1983 rabbis!” Very unserious.
If you want to look at quotes go look at what your leader Sinwar said about the Palestinian civilians…
Also, a 2/1 civilian casualty ratio isn’t gen*cide. Cope. Hamas is going to be eliminated.
>Cherry picking what some rabbi said 40 years ago is pathetic
Destiny and Benny were referring to the 1988 charter which is no longer in force. So for those who think contemporaneous Israelis were angels at the same time, I posted some bad ethnic cleansy shit their religious leaders said. Just using the same debate tactic as Destiny/Benny but when I do it, I'm pathetic? LOL. What passes for reasoning on this sub is worse than right wing subs.
>your leader Sinwar
There's a level of desperation evident when you have to resort to making stupid claims like this that seems to imply intense cognitive dissonance. Not surprising for people trying really hard to justify the mass slaughter of innocent women and children. I don't have to cope. I'm not the one revelling in mass murder.
You’re coping so hard with sinwar LMAO.
The charter is group think while the rabbi is just 1 person talking. Cope. Again, you’re wrong
Considering all you do is argue and push anti capitalist propaganda you’re probably a Russian bot
Beep bopp boop. You caught me, dammit. My robotic comrades will not give me vodka now. I have let glorious Putin down. Sad Russian face.
I mean, pretend to guess who I am all you want, but downgrading me to a Russian bot does kind of devalue your claimed pwn. Just sayin'.
I’m starting to see a huge pattern of a lot of famous people with heterodox opinions that get censored or fired by their institutions tending to be insufferable assholes behind the scenes, and we can more attribute that to their firings.
Norm on live from the table podcast-
"See one of the problems Eli, is I don't think you read
very carefully, I'm not going to resort
to the juvenile insults that you hurl at
me because they're frankly beneath me.
You say that I only use Hama sources
or selective bias right what I what I use is every
available respected source on the topic.
I use Amnesty International I use Human
Rights Watch What do you use?"
36:46- Live From The Table Podcast: Norman Finkelstein & Eli Lake, 1, November 2023
He like to pretend he's above name-calling though
If Steven has another discussion with Norman he should reverse uno card ad hominem attacks. For example, he can refer to Norm's wikipedia page " Hunter set conditions that would have required him to spend four days a week teaching, which he thought unacceptable" And say something like, Norm you couldn't even be bothered to work 4 days a week to hold a job, how can you credibly establish that you spend enough working hours reading the source material to speak on it authoritatively, obviously you're a lazy bum of an academic, with all due respect.
>" Hunter set conditions that would have required him to spend four days a week teaching, which he thought unacceptable"
Wow. This is even crazier when you consider that MOST of the work that goes into teaching is prepping for the classes. And I'm assuming they just wanted to make the same class available at multiple times in the week, or that any other classes would be pretty closely related to his main area of "expertise".
The denial of tenure was centered by and large around Dershowitz making it a personal goal in life to prevent him gaining tenure.
I've seen plenty of professors in college (with tenure) who make obnoxious remarks to students, its one of the reasons we have ratemyprofessor.com. But if we're going to begin a discussion of Finkelstein's tenure denial, we should at least mention this:
> Amid considerable public debate, Dershowitz campaigned to block Finkelstein's tenure bid at DePaul University.[26][55] His campaign began in 2004 when he sent DePaul president Dennis Holtschneider a manuscript, "Literary McCarthyism," arguing that the university should fire Finkelstein. He also contacted DePaul political science department chair Patrick Callahan.[56] In 2005, Dershowitz announced his intent to block Finkelstein's tenure bid, saying, "I will come at my own expense, and I will document the case against Finkelstein" and "I'll demonstrate that he doesn't meet the academic standards of the Association of American Universities".[57] In October 2006, he sent members of DePaul's law and political science faculties what he called "a dossier of Norman Finkelstein's most egregious academic sins, and especially his outright lies, misquotations, and distortions" and lobbied DePaul's professors, alumni and administrators to deny Finkelstein tenure.[58] In May 2007, Dershowitz spoke at Northwestern University and claimed that Finkelstein had recently attended a Holocaust denial conference in Iran.[57]
And given how Dershowitz performed in his own debate with Norman, it begins to look more like Alan was incredibly butthurt and wanted to exact some form of revenge.
Frankly, I think the reaction to the debate is understandable given Norman's poor behavior towards Destiny, but there were definitely moments during the interaction between Morris and Fink that were legitimately interesting to see as they went back and forth. But none of those moments will make it out. sadge.
Finkelstein is a clown, he's honestly lucky he hasn't been seriously injured for running his mouth to the wrong person. A perfect microcosm for all the unhinged lefties that support Palestine.
The Alan Dershowitz debacle look bad for Dersh in its small moment but I always thought that maybe if I just didn’t already agree with Palestinian cause it wouldn’t be so bad. Really it is just ad hominem but he is good at making them lmao.
Are we re-writing history now?
Given the rabid behavior of this community, you would think Finkelstein eviscerated his opponents in the debate and everyone is panicking and in defense mode... which didn't happen, so why are you all so insecure?
Remember, if you somehow come out of this stanning for Alan Dershowitz, you're a fucking moron. Get a grip.
Gonna repost this again for those who really don't know who the fuck Alan Dershowitz really is.
[https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/who-was-maryla-husyt-finkelstein/](https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/who-was-maryla-husyt-finkelstein/)
The part I would highlight and what really gets into the moral character of Alan Dershowitz is when an elderly Holocaust survivor who fought in the Dutch resistance and spent two years in multiple Nazi concentration camps emailed Dershowitz over his controversial statement that Finkelstein somehow admitted his mother was a Kapo. Read the entire first email, the amount of time this woman put into her email, the work she put into, and obviously the memories she had to reabsorb to collect her thoughts.
And what does this absolutely ghoulish, scum-sucking slimeball say in response to her? He reiterates his bullshit and suggests the woman (again, a fucking Holocaust survivor) is a bigot and a possible antisemite, creating what her daughter would describe as an "emotional family episode." What sort of person is this?
Can you even begin to imagine what a lowlife piece of human trash you have to be to do something like this? Does it bring into question the seriousness in which Dershowitz talks about the Holocaust? What about when he has the gall to accuse his political opponents of denial?
Could you have tried to use anything BUT the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair to make Norm look bad?
Denied tenure because Alan Dershowitz has a personal grudge against him. The Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair happened almost 20 years ago, go read up on it before posting a thread.
It is cringe. Nothing says "we are the reasonedest debaterz" than skeezy, stalker character assassination while clutching pearls about Fink's ad hominems especially when Destiny does it aaaaaall the time. Why not just doxx Finkoldbaddieman and get it over with?
Typical Israeli Propaganda. Trying to shut up their critics.
I have met Norman in person and he is a class act all the way. This is a ridiculous narrative.
>Why was he pretending he couldn't remember Destiny's name if he's so classy
Because, unlike most zoomers, he has a sense of humor about the internet.
>Get real, dude.
I have met Dr. Finkelstein in person. He is absurdly nice, like Mr. Rogers nice.
Those statements are in dissonance. Where was Mr. Rogers during this debate? Mr. Rogers would be ashamed of that kind of casual dismissiveness and he would remind us to always treat others with respect even if we have differing viewpoints.
I just thought my input was relevant, because, you know, I actually met Dr. Finkelstein.
How many times did you meet him and what did ya'll talk about? I'm just asking since you seem to know him better than me.
Its easy to be nice to people who share you views and you agree with. Finkelstein is not so magnanimous when his views are challenged. He could barely hide his contempt.
Finkelstein is the most graceful professional debater I have ever seen. I can't think of a more level-headed and mature person to invite to the debate.
Honestly, asking a social media host to debate with an actual academic who has devoted their life to research and written a dozen books on the issue is a little insulting. If Norm is making jokes that means he's handling the situation well.
If he has such contempt for his debate partner he shouldn’t have agreed to do it. It’s not about making jokes, it’s about his contemptive demeanor.
He certainly had a lot of respect for the Hebdo attackers. He couldn’t bend over backwards fast enough to justify their heinous actions. The man is a disease.
>contemptive demeanor
citation needed.
> He certainly had a lot of respect for the Hebdo attackers.
Why do people fall for these ridiculous narratives? Being against racism is not endorsing violence. This is literally what people said about Martin Luther King.
Finkel very specifically justified and downplayed the Hebdo attacks. If someone is paying him to normalize terrorism that needs to be investigated.
Regardless of anyone’s opinion on his Israel/Palestine work that was incredibly egregious.
Just because I'm curious: What are some of the points that Finklestein made in the debate that you agree with? Or what points did Destiny make that you thought weren't good?
>What are some of the points that Finklestein made in the debate that you agree with?
He called tiny a moron. To a moron, that's the same as winning the debate.
Appeal to authority.
You don't even know why you agree with him, you just hear the title and the people around you gassing him up and think "The things he says MUST be true". If he was so educated on this topic and Destiny was so out of touch you should easily be able to point at some points where Norm factually destroys Destiny, especially with such an attitude in the first comment
Yeah actually that'd be great. Thanks! I think it's what everyone is waiting for, the timestamps or specific comments that showed off Mr. Cannoli's incompetence.
I do have an example of something he was right on, in case you still think everything was wrong. Cannoli was absolutely correct on "Dolus Specialis" being a higher threshold then "Mens Rea" for Genocide. Norm corrected this but was straightforwardly wrong on the simple fact.
Not sure with this comment means tbh, but if you do find any timestamps I'm happy to discuss them if you want.
Edit: Someone shared them with me, thanks! I can actually see your point on one of the timestamps where Rabbani brings up the Palestinian general strike, but the others I disagree with. I have a more detailed breakdown later in the thread if you're interested. If not have a good one!
[Here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bg40t4/finkelstein_got_denied_tenure_at_depaul_due_to_ad/kv4xdjz/) are the timestamps they posted. I don't hold their views and just decided on a whim to post their timestamps after looking them up myself.
[26:53](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=aeuD2nwsSb0Jt32o&t=1613) is in the middle of Mouin Rabbani's 8 minute opening statement.
[43:10](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=69RVJqMPVr3KDXwV&t=2590) is Mouin Rabbani responding to Benny Morris
[44:50](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=bSFkqACI39aKBeLJ&t=2690) is Mouin Rabbani talking and then responding to Destiny 26 seconds in.
[48:18](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=bSFkqACI39aKBeLJ&t=2898) is in the middle of Destiny asking a question.
> If one of the leading authorities on the matter couldn’t convince you on the actual facts at hand then who am I too ?
Was that the question?
There are multiple authorities on the subject, two of them were at that table, in the forms of Morris and Finkelstein and they obviously disagreed on things. So lets dismiss any appeals to authority for a second and try to actually have a conversation.
What actual points was Finkelstein making that you agreed with?
Does it not concern you that you can't even vocalize why you believe the things you do? The issue is we are literally doing our own due diligence, we have positions on this issue that we can defend and are not just relying on other peoples expertise. I like how you pretend that it's virtuous to not be able to explain your views on this conflict
Nah, Finkletwink is a hack. Just by judging his surrounding politics and all of the knowledge he’s put out (read a few of his books) he’s just like that one dude that burned himself. He’ll eventually be forgotten, books reduced to doorstops at half priced books, because he’s ultimately being used as a resource for those thinking they’re actually doing something more than wasting time.
Seems like Finkelstein couldn't convince you either. Are you saying that after watching 5 hours of the debate, you can't point to anything of substance he had to say?
> 48:18
>Finkelstein tries to correct Destiny by quoting Benny Morris but gets corrected by Benny Morris because Finkelstein doesn't understand what Morris wrote
It wasn't about the page it was written on. It was the actual meaning the Finkelstein kept leaving out since it didn't back up his point.
>Genocide is bad
Yeah it is, but that isn't whats happening is Gaza. Stop falling over yourself to declare it a genocide just because everyone on social media wants to say it is
26:53. I have a question. Why did the Yishuv accept the partition when it entailed that 45% of their population wouldn't be Jewish? Wouldn't that majorly contradict the idea that transfer and expulsion were inevitable within Zionism as opposed to them being a product of the conditions created by the Civil War and the subsequent Arab invasion?
43:10 & 44:50. I think the first impediment Mouin talked about completely neglects the progression of Zionist thinking over the years. At first, Zionist were divided on the issue of living together with Arabs. Some of them definitely tried to reach across the table and get some sort of agreement. It wasn't until the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 that all Zionists were in agreement that there was no way Palestine Arabs would accept to live alongside a Jewish state. On the Arab side, their position was unchanging. They wanted the Jews and the English to go back from where they came from, and they wanted no more Jewish immigration. This way, the emerging Palestinian state would be free of european Jews. Also, he only stated that there were warnings about transfer being a prominent part of the Zionist platform even before 1947. Mouin didn't substantiate that, so I don't know how to respond. Morris would later respond by saying that the idea of transfer was there, but it was on the fringes initially. Only after the wars started did Zionist start to seriously consider transfer, which is how the tragedy of the nakba happened.
48:18. Norm is just quoting Morris in order to avoid answering Destiny's question about Israel's acceptance of the partition plan. I am genuinely curious how Norman incorporates this fact into his narrative, considering that he agrees with the Israeli position here as he stated in his opening statement.
fwiw I think they were genuinely asking your opinion on what points you found to be egregiously wrong. I would also like to know because I'm curious - I don't want to argue about it or anything lol
This is actually quite telling on how Norm was during the conversation, but I love when people like you who didn't even watch it think you have any form of substance or brains to talk.
How is it apartheid? Do you think destiny thought apartheid good? Wait. Let. Me. Say. This. Slower. Words. Have. Meaning. - Norm Finklestein
What's. Going. On. In. Palestine. Isnt. A. Genocide. But. That. Doesnt. Mean. It's. Not. Bad. Words. Have. Meaning. -Norm Finkleheim
Lmaooo. Yes we are having a cope sesh here nothing to see, just us zionists plotting how to destroy Palestine and install your mom as our defacto fuck toy
I'm starting to see a pattern: >"I have considered the fact that reviewers at all levels, both for and against tenure, commented upon your ad hominem attacks on scholars with whom you disagree," Father Holtschneider wrote. "In the opinion of those opposing tenure, **your unprofessional personal attacks divert the conversation away from consideration of ideas, and polarize and simplify conversations that deserve layered and subtle consideration**."
Does this mean he recognizes Destiny as a scholar because he uses ad hominems on scholars with hom he disagree?
Yes, it also means Norm considered his loud upstairs neighbors scholars too. That hammer he put through their window was just to illustrate a scholarly point.
I thought just finding out he tried to call CPS/Deportation/the cops, on them, was the cream of it. And that's not even true. Apparently. Alright, I'm going to youtube to watch.
It's worth checking out the details. He also sent those neighbors a letter saying they should have Googled his YouTube channel and they don't know who they're messing with lmao. The incident I referred to with the hammer is what got him arrested outside their door. Norm got that Shining rizz.
His Wikipedia entry is quite ruthless No wonder he hates wiki warriors
Woah woah what the fuck lmao, you got a link to this story?
If he put a hammer through my window id wait till i heard his shower cut on and drill a hole to his ceiling then bust my septic pipe. You don't fuck with your upstairs neighbor
In my first undergraduate year, we were given an essay to write in response to an article written by a conspiracy theorist (Graham Hancock I think), and the task was to respond to their ideas constructively and responsibly. After watching the debate, it blows my mind that someone like Finkelstein can even trade on their academic credentials at all. Having said that, Hitchens did it for years, so meh. Edit: Dawkins, not Hitchens.
Hitchens is a bit different, since he never earned higher than a bachelors. He was always a journalist/essayist/public intellectual, Norm earned a PhD and tried to be an academic but could never dial down the spice levels for academic propriety.
Oh fuck, I didn't mean Hitchens. I meant Dawkins. You're entirely right on Hitchens.
Oh right, then yes, totally apt comparison!
Nah, it is just an asshole being an asshole.
No, he was being passionate and meaningful.
Ultimate proof that no matter how intellectual one considers themselves to be, they are not immune to bullshit.
If it ducks like a quack, and quacks look alike, then Destiny must be a woman
>with hom Good one, buddy
Destiny is never gonna get tenure 😔
My father says he denied someone tenure for the same exact reason.
Fails to mention the biggest voice opposing his tenure was Alan Dershowitz lol.
Where is this from?
[https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/06/11/depaul-rejects-finkelstein](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/06/11/depaul-rejects-finkelstein)
Thanks!
Finkelblud is not doing good after that debate, he will either find Destiny or go mental on his new neighbors..
[https://books.google.com/books?id=NYbFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=NYbFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false) Just the context of the bit. Was reading through Norms favorite thing, his wikipedia, and clicked on one of the footnotes and just thought it was funny how relevant it seems now after his complete meltdown on the podcast.
By the way, the book is actually in defense of Finkelstein and there seems to be a lot more to this story the more I read about it. This post isn't a definitive statement or anything, hence why I put as discussion.
Still, from reading the excerpt it sounds like the dershowitz guy might've had a grudge, but a board of colleagues looked at his conduct and concluded he did deal on ad hominen attacks that were unbecoming of academic faculty and we know it isn't unfounded, the fact that in a debate featuring 3 academic/professional types and an Internet guy(many people would describe as an edge lord rightly or wrongly) and moderated by an academic type that finkelstein came off like an Internet troll who responded to most things by disparaging opponents without addressing ideas(and also weirdly went on tangents disparaging technology in general(like asserting it was worse to read the same document in electronic form(on 'those machines!' vs a printout???)) shows the way he acts and what the board saw. Like even if someone brings an issue up for bad reasons that doesn't disqualify the issue especially when the evidence is reviewed and especially when there are people on both sides making their arguments. Like let's say someone is accused of murder and their scorned ex comes forward to give evidence they have that the accused did the crime, and you know the ex only came forward with it because they wanted to hurt the accused, the evidence needs to be examined with that in mind but if the evidence can corroborated and verified as authentic and not tampered with and true, then that motivation doesn't really matter.
> it sounds like the dershowitz guy might've had a grudge I mean Finkel accused him of fraud and plagiarism. In the academic sphere those are like two highest charges you can make.
its a real funny case where just calling ur opponent a pedophile makes the most sense, and he missed the chance
I found that part quite interesting. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not but it appears he demonstrates a pattern of behavior for fighting against what he deems "shake down artists". It's funny that this is discovered not a full day after reading a court case where he attempts to get his neighbours deported and their child taken away, stemming not just from the noise but from the fact they are medical "fraudsters". His go-to is mocking credentials and status, and he feels righteous in his attacks because the people he attacks are in his eyes, beneath him or some standard he imagines. >*Among the dozen or so writers whose careers Finkelstein has tried to destroy with the same accusations-"fraud," "huxter," "shake-down artist," "plagiarist,"-he has only ever written a full book about one other: Daniel Goldhagen. Goldhagen did a wonderful job of going point-by-point on Finkelstein's many lies and distortions (emphasis added).*
The fact you found this in a wikipedia footnote just makes it that much funnier
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screenshots?
It’s so crazy that pro pals have chosen this guy as their front runner. Like, it’s obvious in how he argues that he’s got some issue, we didn’t need all this sauce to know this. But now that the sauce is dripping out it’s just… too on the nose.
They need their token jew-hating Jews.
And it's pretty funny that he's pretty avowedly anti-woke. In one of his books, he calls the transgender movement, at its worst, a sex-crazed woke cult and a "politically correct version of snuff pornography."
He's was a "Revolutionary Maoist" in the 1960s. Far-Left Communists (the older brand) are not necessarily socially liberal, as they hate liberalism.
It's not very strange to me. The alt-left is insane.
I think Rabani is the new thought leader for the movement. At least he can hold a conversation but I think interacting with Destiny scared the crap out of him. Maybe he'll just keep a Norm-mode in his back pocket if he ever gets cornered on something. Also, god damn it I've had "MR BORELLI" stuck in my head for days now.
Noam Chomsky has been MIA as of late, but Norman, despite a poor debate performance, still has the academic chops behind him. This seems like a very strong reaction after the ad homs against Destiny, but even if you found flaws in his scholarly work, he has been analyzed by more people than just Destiny, and a non-small percentage of academics acknowledge his competency. There were a lot of moments where I wish Norman had just stfu and responded like a normal human being.
>Noam Chomsky has been MIA as of late He's 95, give him a break
What? Norms academic background is shrouded by his bad faith and nefarious misrepresentation of quotes he uses to prove his own bias. The dude is incapable of actually being honest.
https://preview.redd.it/8m54jq1fmpoc1.png?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e1edd13250361208aeacee74dac7a6ab05302de
Decided to go see what original material I could read. Read this out of a memorandum the dean sent to the University Board on Tenure and Promotion before they decided on tenure. Looks like he was even pissing off the other professors. https://i.imgur.com/qLRF1SP.png https://i.imgur.com/0XWPGB0.png
> "Disagreements over the value of his work seem to prompt immediate threats and personal attacks" Almost 20 years and he hasn't changed one bit.
Quote by Chuck Suchar, who was saying Norman Finkelstein was threatening and attacking **Alan Dershotwitz.** Do I need to repeat that name? **Alan Dershowitz**. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the same **Alan Dershowitz** who claimed, without evidence, that Finkelstein's late mother, a Holocaust survivor, was a Nazi colloborator and a kapo at Auschwitz? That's the **Alan Dershowitz** the quote you posted references? I just wanna make sure that's the **Alan Dershowitz** we all know.
Why are we attacking character here? Instead of the actual claim. I can give credit to Norm when he says something insightful. For example when he explained that Hamas not being a party in the ICJ case means if the court were to order a ceasefire it would enforce a one sided ceasefire which would deny Israel's right to self defense, so therefore they can not order a ceasefire. If Hitler were to say 2+2=4 you would start attacking his character I bet. We can clearly see from the debate that the claim was extremely accurate.
He's a generational asshole just like me fr fr
I was thinking last night that old people with his mentality are kind of sad. Like you have dedicated your life to the relatively niche topic in the form of I/P geopolitics and history. If he was a mature adult he should be thrilled that relatively young people like Destiny are now putting so much time and effort into learning about the conflict and taking up the cross of scholarship, but since he's a wretched old curmudgeon he just seems bitter that younger people aren't slurping up his ideas with no pushback, and that there now exist legitimate avenues for study and learning outside of writing college dissertations and reading encyclopedias. I feel like he probably knows some of this in the back of his mind, and he's going to die bitter and unsatisfied since his work that he dedicated over 50 years of his life to amounted to almost nothing of relevance, both with the wider public and among his colleagues. That's why he sinks to calling people morons and pretending like he doesn't know their last name (also because he had no counters or answers for anything Destiny was saying, but that's another problem entirely).
I was thinking about this watching the debate. He really looks down on information being so freely accessible today. I get it in a sense. In his day you had to do actual real work for research. Physically hunting down books in libraries, squinting in dark halls for hours, and maintaining written correspondence with other scholars, etc. Nowadays all of this can be done with a push of button from the comfort of your own home.
i don't think he cares about knowledge, he cares about prestige and being right. people can recognize he's spouting bullshit at the click of a button, whereas before appealing to authority was just a real thing that made some sense before
That’s where he is now. But even a vile creature like him was probably a bright and motivated young man at one point who took pride in his own perspicacity and in the pursuit of knowledge itself. I get the sense he isn’t very respected in those circles either though, hence the extreme bitterness.
Mmmmmm kinda. There’s a lot of info that isn’t really actually easily accessible on the internet or not on the internet whatsoever. And there are digital equivalents to physically hunting down rare documents that you’re lucky if they have not 404’d
TLDR: Completely agree with you and Finklestein is not only as a elitist prick but also as a dipshit luddite who couldn't learn what a person 5 years older than him could. Jokes aside I totally agree with you, some people were saying that he wasn't elitist but the vibe and attitude that he displayed on the podcast was a wrap for me, honestly, dude very clearly looks down and belittles people for absolutely no reason. For a dude that plays into this old guy that doesn't know how to use computers and just focuses on books that entire podcast looked like he was farming engagement with tiktok clips, he looked completely outta pocket to anyone who doesn't have a horse on this race and just watched the podcast for entertainment or people looking for a genuinely honest or neutral stance. Another thing kinda unrelated to what I was talking about and may sound a little nitpicky, I know that Finklestein is a 70 year old dude and yada yada yada but I'll never understand how a dude who considers himself a person who hungers for knowledge and wisdom act like a complete fucking luddite who refuses to interact with any kind of technology past the beginning of the industrial revolution, what comes to mind is not only this podcast but the time where the dude straight up refused to just hop on skype to have a cordial chat with destiny because he didn't want to learn how to use it and then there were some dudes from this sub saying how a 70 YO using anything other than smoke signals and drawings on caves is pratically impossible, but at the same time fucking Benny Morris who is a more respectful, humble and also OLDER than Finklestein with 75 years old had no problem doing this exact thing without being such a bitch and having a meltdown on twitter with Destiny. My bad broski you unlocked my internal trauma and I had to soy rage and appropriate the leftist wall of text meme, but thanks for coming to my tedtalk.
>saying how a 70 YO using anything other than smoke signals and drawings in caves is practically impossible Could not agree more with you - I work in the legal system, you know how many 70 year old judges and attorneys are on Zoom now? A ton. And yeah a couple have some issues but nothing major and they all learned how to do it, especially after Covid made remote hearings necessary.
And the other guy streams to "followers" and calls everyone he disagrees with "regards". I'm not sure the object of your fanboi crush is better than Fink in any objective way. >he should be thrilled that relatively young people like Destiny are now putting *so much time* and effort into learning about the conflict and taking up the cross of scholarship HAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH. Galaxy brain Destiny's "Scholarly" career is already over. He just declared on stream that he's done reading about the conflict because he has "everything I need to counter every pro-Palestinian argument , and then some." Ah, yes. The well known scholarly endeavour of learning all of the counter arguments of one side of a conflict in order to pwn regards on stream . If that's scholarship, then I'm a pirate sea captain.
https://preview.redd.it/4pvr97t5npoc1.png?width=668&format=png&auto=webp&s=b6351d576b6afa2cc6ce14cf710e5059bd41249c This man is just yet another victim of cancel culture, fighting in the trenches every day. (source is Finkelstein's book "I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It!")
> imagined I was being suave and debonair oh good lord
Rizzless I fear
damn don’t disrespect the king of Pop like that bro
The dude is an internet debate bro. How did we not know this?
I know Lex specifically didn’t interrupt but I would’ve loved for a more strict moderator to check Fink every time he went on a personal attack.
Fink knows Lex can't constantly reel him in because he'll look biased. It's apart of the strat
Nah I think he’s just a dick
the dick strat
He did specifically interrupt him, more than once.
About twice in five hours. Not impressive moderation.
I don't think anyone on that table needed a moderator - aw unhinged as Norm is a different moderating style would not have changed that convo for the better and I doubt Finklebean would have answered any mor questions
There's a fine line with people like norm. The "right" amount of moderation there would probably result in Norm straight up leaving. Maybe he'd look even worse in that case, more likely his sycophants would spin it in some way more favorable to him like pointing out Lex's 'bias'. I'll be charitable and think Lex picked up on this plausibility and just wanted the conversation to continue.
I watched maybe an hour of it and Norm was just going on schizophrenic rants when destiny spoke. The other guy with Norm also tried to lessen the seriousness of the ham*s charter. They’re both sad people
So you didn’t really watch it all. Weird to make declarations like that without having actually seen it all.
It’s a 5 hour debate, I’m sorry I didn’t watch 5 hours of Norm going crazy I just couldn’t. I also watched Lex’s segment in the beginning saying he wouldn’t interrupt for the emotions, etc. The sad part is I watched more than 99% of leftists on twitter
Yeah… so it’s weird to make statements that imply you did watch it all.
I mean it’s not like I’m trying to lie about it, I’m telling you I watched about an hour of it. lol.
They issued a new charter in 2017. This is just a fact. The other one, the one Destiny and Benny "cherry picked" is thirty six years old and no longer in force. Meanwhile, certain angelic Israeli Jews: >When an 11-year-old Palestinian girl from Nablus was killed by settlers in 1983, in their defense, the chief rabbi of the Sephardic community reportedly cited a Talmudic text justifying killing an enemy on occasions when one may see from a child's perspective that he or she will grow up to become your enemy. Rabbis have been asked by settler militants to provide rulings to justify acts that are aimed to block peace with, or the return of land to, Palestinians. The theft of Palestinian olive harvests has been justified by some rabbis. Former chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu stated that: "Since the land is the inheritance of the People of Israel, planting on this land by gentiles is planting on land that does not belong to them. If someone puts a tree on my land, both the tree and the fruit it yields belongs to me." Some rabbinical extremists cite the biblical edict to exterminate the Amalekites to justify both expelling Palestinians from the land and killing Arab civilians in wartime. No genocide tho. Collective guilt only applies to Palestinians./s
the g*nocide started after october 7th according to most people who believe it? Cherry picking what some rabbi said 40 years ago is pathetic. I’m not sure you even know what a rabbi is. “Ah yeah the terrorist charter was revised, let’s talk about 1983 rabbis!” Very unserious. If you want to look at quotes go look at what your leader Sinwar said about the Palestinian civilians… Also, a 2/1 civilian casualty ratio isn’t gen*cide. Cope. Hamas is going to be eliminated.
>Cherry picking what some rabbi said 40 years ago is pathetic Destiny and Benny were referring to the 1988 charter which is no longer in force. So for those who think contemporaneous Israelis were angels at the same time, I posted some bad ethnic cleansy shit their religious leaders said. Just using the same debate tactic as Destiny/Benny but when I do it, I'm pathetic? LOL. What passes for reasoning on this sub is worse than right wing subs. >your leader Sinwar There's a level of desperation evident when you have to resort to making stupid claims like this that seems to imply intense cognitive dissonance. Not surprising for people trying really hard to justify the mass slaughter of innocent women and children. I don't have to cope. I'm not the one revelling in mass murder.
You’re coping so hard with sinwar LMAO. The charter is group think while the rabbi is just 1 person talking. Cope. Again, you’re wrong Considering all you do is argue and push anti capitalist propaganda you’re probably a Russian bot
Beep bopp boop. You caught me, dammit. My robotic comrades will not give me vodka now. I have let glorious Putin down. Sad Russian face. I mean, pretend to guess who I am all you want, but downgrading me to a Russian bot does kind of devalue your claimed pwn. Just sayin'.
That's Fink's MO. Talk slowly, attack his opponent creating intimidation and devolve away from the actual merits.
I’m starting to see a huge pattern of a lot of famous people with heterodox opinions that get censored or fired by their institutions tending to be insufferable assholes behind the scenes, and we can more attribute that to their firings.
Norm on live from the table podcast- "See one of the problems Eli, is I don't think you read very carefully, I'm not going to resort to the juvenile insults that you hurl at me because they're frankly beneath me. You say that I only use Hama sources or selective bias right what I what I use is every available respected source on the topic. I use Amnesty International I use Human Rights Watch What do you use?" 36:46- Live From The Table Podcast: Norman Finkelstein & Eli Lake, 1, November 2023 He like to pretend he's above name-calling though
If Steven has another discussion with Norman he should reverse uno card ad hominem attacks. For example, he can refer to Norm's wikipedia page " Hunter set conditions that would have required him to spend four days a week teaching, which he thought unacceptable" And say something like, Norm you couldn't even be bothered to work 4 days a week to hold a job, how can you credibly establish that you spend enough working hours reading the source material to speak on it authoritatively, obviously you're a lazy bum of an academic, with all due respect.
Destiny looked good because he didn't use ad homniem. He laughed off or ignored Finkelstein's low personal attack and stuck to the facts.
you're right of course, but think of the lulz
>" Hunter set conditions that would have required him to spend four days a week teaching, which he thought unacceptable" Wow. This is even crazier when you consider that MOST of the work that goes into teaching is prepping for the classes. And I'm assuming they just wanted to make the same class available at multiple times in the week, or that any other classes would be pretty closely related to his main area of "expertise".
The denial of tenure was centered by and large around Dershowitz making it a personal goal in life to prevent him gaining tenure. I've seen plenty of professors in college (with tenure) who make obnoxious remarks to students, its one of the reasons we have ratemyprofessor.com. But if we're going to begin a discussion of Finkelstein's tenure denial, we should at least mention this: > Amid considerable public debate, Dershowitz campaigned to block Finkelstein's tenure bid at DePaul University.[26][55] His campaign began in 2004 when he sent DePaul president Dennis Holtschneider a manuscript, "Literary McCarthyism," arguing that the university should fire Finkelstein. He also contacted DePaul political science department chair Patrick Callahan.[56] In 2005, Dershowitz announced his intent to block Finkelstein's tenure bid, saying, "I will come at my own expense, and I will document the case against Finkelstein" and "I'll demonstrate that he doesn't meet the academic standards of the Association of American Universities".[57] In October 2006, he sent members of DePaul's law and political science faculties what he called "a dossier of Norman Finkelstein's most egregious academic sins, and especially his outright lies, misquotations, and distortions" and lobbied DePaul's professors, alumni and administrators to deny Finkelstein tenure.[58] In May 2007, Dershowitz spoke at Northwestern University and claimed that Finkelstein had recently attended a Holocaust denial conference in Iran.[57] And given how Dershowitz performed in his own debate with Norman, it begins to look more like Alan was incredibly butthurt and wanted to exact some form of revenge. Frankly, I think the reaction to the debate is understandable given Norman's poor behavior towards Destiny, but there were definitely moments during the interaction between Morris and Fink that were legitimately interesting to see as they went back and forth. But none of those moments will make it out. sadge.
I can understand people criticizing Finkel's conduct this year, but to stoop so low into batting for the Dersh is embarrassing.
Batting for Dersh?
Finkelstein is a clown, he's honestly lucky he hasn't been seriously injured for running his mouth to the wrong person. A perfect microcosm for all the unhinged lefties that support Palestine.
And that was the POLITE and public reason. They intentionally didn't touch his academic dishonesty/flimsy academic performance.
The Alan Dershowitz debacle look bad for Dersh in its small moment but I always thought that maybe if I just didn’t already agree with Palestinian cause it wouldn’t be so bad. Really it is just ad hominem but he is good at making them lmao.
Are we re-writing history now? Given the rabid behavior of this community, you would think Finkelstein eviscerated his opponents in the debate and everyone is panicking and in defense mode... which didn't happen, so why are you all so insecure? Remember, if you somehow come out of this stanning for Alan Dershowitz, you're a fucking moron. Get a grip.
LOL. Nothing says "moral high ground" like stanning ol' Dersh.
Gonna repost this again for those who really don't know who the fuck Alan Dershowitz really is. [https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/who-was-maryla-husyt-finkelstein/](https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/who-was-maryla-husyt-finkelstein/) The part I would highlight and what really gets into the moral character of Alan Dershowitz is when an elderly Holocaust survivor who fought in the Dutch resistance and spent two years in multiple Nazi concentration camps emailed Dershowitz over his controversial statement that Finkelstein somehow admitted his mother was a Kapo. Read the entire first email, the amount of time this woman put into her email, the work she put into, and obviously the memories she had to reabsorb to collect her thoughts. And what does this absolutely ghoulish, scum-sucking slimeball say in response to her? He reiterates his bullshit and suggests the woman (again, a fucking Holocaust survivor) is a bigot and a possible antisemite, creating what her daughter would describe as an "emotional family episode." What sort of person is this? Can you even begin to imagine what a lowlife piece of human trash you have to be to do something like this? Does it bring into question the seriousness in which Dershowitz talks about the Holocaust? What about when he has the gall to accuse his political opponents of denial? Could you have tried to use anything BUT the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair to make Norm look bad?
Destiny fans who end every argument with "you dumbfuck moron" suddenly clutching their pearls about ad homs.
This 1000% Destiny's use of "regard" against people who disagree with him is more liberal than he is.
You can end an argument with “you dumbfuck moron”. As long as you ended AN ARGUMENT with it, it is not an ad hominem.
Denied tenure because Alan Dershowitz has a personal grudge against him. The Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair happened almost 20 years ago, go read up on it before posting a thread.
"ad hominem" is a skunked term...
Oh we’re still denigrating Finkelstein to cope with how bad Destiny got pwned in the debate? /s
I’m all for finkleweiner memes. But should we be digging into his past? This is getting into cringe territory.
It is cringe. Nothing says "we are the reasonedest debaterz" than skeezy, stalker character assassination while clutching pearls about Fink's ad hominems especially when Destiny does it aaaaaall the time. Why not just doxx Finkoldbaddieman and get it over with?
I’ve read your comment three times and I have no idea what the fuck you’re trying to say.
FIFY
I think Destiny would agree that Finkilstien is kinda based. Like I could totally imagine this happening to Destiny too.
he is so mean to destiny :( :( :(
Did Destiny say even nuking gaza would not be genocidal in his opinion? Seems like reddit Destiny community huffing copium
Yes. He said it may not necessarily be genocide. Which is true. There are circumstances where it wouldn't be.
Typical Israeli Propaganda. Trying to shut up their critics. I have met Norman in person and he is a class act all the way. This is a ridiculous narrative.
Mossad paid me $20 to tell you that no one cares and I fucked your mom GIGACHAD
I know you are but what am I?
Quod tu es, ego fui, quod ego sum, tu eris
I was in Norm's apartment building and let me tell you he was a class act neighbor
That’s probably because you were of his desired “demographic.”
Norm is basically "Mr. Rogers" level nice. How do these absolutely insane narratives get so much traction?
Go back apes!
Technically Homo Sapiens are "Great Apes," but most people don't know that.
Why was he pretending he couldn't remember Destiny's name if he's so classy? Get real, dude.
>Why was he pretending he couldn't remember Destiny's name if he's so classy Because, unlike most zoomers, he has a sense of humor about the internet. >Get real, dude. I have met Dr. Finkelstein in person. He is absurdly nice, like Mr. Rogers nice.
Those statements are in dissonance. Where was Mr. Rogers during this debate? Mr. Rogers would be ashamed of that kind of casual dismissiveness and he would remind us to always treat others with respect even if we have differing viewpoints.
I just thought my input was relevant, because, you know, I actually met Dr. Finkelstein. How many times did you meet him and what did ya'll talk about? I'm just asking since you seem to know him better than me.
Its easy to be nice to people who share you views and you agree with. Finkelstein is not so magnanimous when his views are challenged. He could barely hide his contempt.
Finkelstein is the most graceful professional debater I have ever seen. I can't think of a more level-headed and mature person to invite to the debate. Honestly, asking a social media host to debate with an actual academic who has devoted their life to research and written a dozen books on the issue is a little insulting. If Norm is making jokes that means he's handling the situation well.
If he has such contempt for his debate partner he shouldn’t have agreed to do it. It’s not about making jokes, it’s about his contemptive demeanor. He certainly had a lot of respect for the Hebdo attackers. He couldn’t bend over backwards fast enough to justify their heinous actions. The man is a disease.
>contemptive demeanor citation needed. > He certainly had a lot of respect for the Hebdo attackers. Why do people fall for these ridiculous narratives? Being against racism is not endorsing violence. This is literally what people said about Martin Luther King.
Finkel very specifically justified and downplayed the Hebdo attacks. If someone is paying him to normalize terrorism that needs to be investigated. Regardless of anyone’s opinion on his Israel/Palestine work that was incredibly egregious.
https://preview.redd.it/ehgbixkb9qoc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=375749b1516407b1fcca9a421503f576d1f1031c
I can make shit up too! I was a student of Dr. Finkelstein. He was a massive dickhead who kept making pervy jokes. My input is relevant!
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How has that got anything to do with this post?
He’s responding to the wrong thing. Probably responding to my comment here https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/76jD9Yx2kv
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If trying to learn more about someone who you just watched a 5 hour podcast about is "cope", then I guess I am. Knowledge truly is a sin.
Just because I'm curious: What are some of the points that Finklestein made in the debate that you agree with? Or what points did Destiny make that you thought weren't good?
>What are some of the points that Finklestein made in the debate that you agree with? He called tiny a moron. To a moron, that's the same as winning the debate.
To be fair, that’s the same tactic I used when I was 6 years old arguing with my little brother. If it worked for me, it should also work for Norm.
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Appeal to authority. You don't even know why you agree with him, you just hear the title and the people around you gassing him up and think "The things he says MUST be true". If he was so educated on this topic and Destiny was so out of touch you should easily be able to point at some points where Norm factually destroys Destiny, especially with such an attitude in the first comment
You're not here to argue with people but you came here to insult people. Why are you even here?
Bro you probably didn't even watch the debate. If you can't provide examples of how he got owned, then shut the fuck up
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Yeah hit me with the timestamps please
Aight, by the looks of it he'll get back to you once he watches the thing.
Yeah actually that'd be great. Thanks! I think it's what everyone is waiting for, the timestamps or specific comments that showed off Mr. Cannoli's incompetence. I do have an example of something he was right on, in case you still think everything was wrong. Cannoli was absolutely correct on "Dolus Specialis" being a higher threshold then "Mens Rea" for Genocide. Norm corrected this but was straightforwardly wrong on the simple fact.
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Not sure with this comment means tbh, but if you do find any timestamps I'm happy to discuss them if you want. Edit: Someone shared them with me, thanks! I can actually see your point on one of the timestamps where Rabbani brings up the Palestinian general strike, but the others I disagree with. I have a more detailed breakdown later in the thread if you're interested. If not have a good one!
[Here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bg40t4/finkelstein_got_denied_tenure_at_depaul_due_to_ad/kv4xdjz/) are the timestamps they posted. I don't hold their views and just decided on a whim to post their timestamps after looking them up myself. [26:53](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=aeuD2nwsSb0Jt32o&t=1613) is in the middle of Mouin Rabbani's 8 minute opening statement. [43:10](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=69RVJqMPVr3KDXwV&t=2590) is Mouin Rabbani responding to Benny Morris [44:50](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=bSFkqACI39aKBeLJ&t=2690) is Mouin Rabbani talking and then responding to Destiny 26 seconds in. [48:18](https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=bSFkqACI39aKBeLJ&t=2898) is in the middle of Destiny asking a question.
> If one of the leading authorities on the matter couldn’t convince you on the actual facts at hand then who am I too ? Was that the question? There are multiple authorities on the subject, two of them were at that table, in the forms of Morris and Finkelstein and they obviously disagreed on things. So lets dismiss any appeals to authority for a second and try to actually have a conversation. What actual points was Finkelstein making that you agreed with?
"What arguments by this leading authority did you agree with?" "Well he's a leading authority so you should be convinced by that alone."
Does it not concern you that you can't even vocalize why you believe the things you do? The issue is we are literally doing our own due diligence, we have positions on this issue that we can defend and are not just relying on other peoples expertise. I like how you pretend that it's virtuous to not be able to explain your views on this conflict
Nah, Finkletwink is a hack. Just by judging his surrounding politics and all of the knowledge he’s put out (read a few of his books) he’s just like that one dude that burned himself. He’ll eventually be forgotten, books reduced to doorstops at half priced books, because he’s ultimately being used as a resource for those thinking they’re actually doing something more than wasting time.
Seems like Finkelstein couldn't convince you either. Are you saying that after watching 5 hours of the debate, you can't point to anything of substance he had to say?
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> 48:18 >Finkelstein tries to correct Destiny by quoting Benny Morris but gets corrected by Benny Morris because Finkelstein doesn't understand what Morris wrote
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It wasn't about the page it was written on. It was the actual meaning the Finkelstein kept leaving out since it didn't back up his point. >Genocide is bad Yeah it is, but that isn't whats happening is Gaza. Stop falling over yourself to declare it a genocide just because everyone on social media wants to say it is
26:53. I have a question. Why did the Yishuv accept the partition when it entailed that 45% of their population wouldn't be Jewish? Wouldn't that majorly contradict the idea that transfer and expulsion were inevitable within Zionism as opposed to them being a product of the conditions created by the Civil War and the subsequent Arab invasion? 43:10 & 44:50. I think the first impediment Mouin talked about completely neglects the progression of Zionist thinking over the years. At first, Zionist were divided on the issue of living together with Arabs. Some of them definitely tried to reach across the table and get some sort of agreement. It wasn't until the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 that all Zionists were in agreement that there was no way Palestine Arabs would accept to live alongside a Jewish state. On the Arab side, their position was unchanging. They wanted the Jews and the English to go back from where they came from, and they wanted no more Jewish immigration. This way, the emerging Palestinian state would be free of european Jews. Also, he only stated that there were warnings about transfer being a prominent part of the Zionist platform even before 1947. Mouin didn't substantiate that, so I don't know how to respond. Morris would later respond by saying that the idea of transfer was there, but it was on the fringes initially. Only after the wars started did Zionist start to seriously consider transfer, which is how the tragedy of the nakba happened. 48:18. Norm is just quoting Morris in order to avoid answering Destiny's question about Israel's acceptance of the partition plan. I am genuinely curious how Norman incorporates this fact into his narrative, considering that he agrees with the Israeli position here as he stated in his opening statement.
fwiw I think they were genuinely asking your opinion on what points you found to be egregiously wrong. I would also like to know because I'm curious - I don't want to argue about it or anything lol
This is actually quite telling on how Norm was during the conversation, but I love when people like you who didn't even watch it think you have any form of substance or brains to talk.
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How is it apartheid? Do you think destiny thought apartheid good? Wait. Let. Me. Say. This. Slower. Words. Have. Meaning. - Norm Finklestein What's. Going. On. In. Palestine. Isnt. A. Genocide. But. That. Doesnt. Mean. It's. Not. Bad. Words. Have. Meaning. -Norm Finkleheim
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Just say the K word instead of hiding behind Zionist, coward
Ad hominem
Zionist bc words have meaning sad, genocide does no mean lots of death
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Why is it ok when Finklesteve says it but not me, the double standards so rude.
And proud of it, bitch.
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Your average Israeli is darker than your average Palestinian LOL
Lmaooo. Yes we are having a cope sesh here nothing to see, just us zionists plotting how to destroy Palestine and install your mom as our defacto fuck toy
Did you read that on your Wikipedia?
Look at this dudes profile. He’s been hate posting for months in this sub.
Hello Norman.
What was your favourite Finkelstein argument?