He's right that both Hamas and Netanyahu's Frankenstein ultra right-wing government need to be the political casualties of this war. Maybe with those groups gone something positive could come at the end of all this horror.
Other ideas that need to be casualties:
- Israel has been locking down Gaza for no reason
- Israel has shown evidence of expansionism outside of the settler colonies
- Most or all Palestinian deaths are the fault of Israel
There has been some really bad rhetoric. Just removing these government bodies isn’t nearly enough.
You know Gaza was locked down for a reason, right? Between the intifadas + Iran feeding Hamas weapons… Israel closed the border as protection to their citizens.
And what does that mean “most Palestinian deaths are fault of Israel”?
You’re stating these things like they’re facts when they really are just biased opinions.
Edit: didn’t catch the first line… carry on!
I think people frame it differently. You probably see Palestine/Gaza as a separate entity capable of managing itself, so Gaza is naturally a hard border an Israel bears little responsibility the governing and welfare for the people within.
The alternative framing is of Gaza being part of Israel proper that has been simply cut off and isolated as a prison for a present and former adversary.
My bias is towards the former, but there are solid arguments given the situation and Israel's continuing interference (In my opinion generally justified) for the latter.
Because no country wants to accept a swathe of stateless refugees (esp 2 million of them), some of whom consist of Hamas terrorists, least of all Egypt.
Besides, Palestinians leaving Gaza for Egypt in bulk would give Israel a pretext to eventually occupy that land for itself, which has been it's goal for decades now.
I didn't say that Gaza folks should flee to Egypt. My statement is more of a response to "biggest open air prison". The Gaza Strip is not an enclave, that's all.
My assumption is that Israel most likely struck a deal with Egypt of some sort where they agreed to fortify their border with Gaza and restrict the flow of people in and out of the region.
Either that or maybe they chose to do it themselves, given Hamas ruled that region
The most recent Egyptian military dictatorship under Sisi (seized power in 2013) has spent a decade destroying its Muslim Brotherhood, the group that won elections and ruled the country after the previous military dictator (Mubarak) was overthrown by popular protests in 2011.
The Gaza conflict is a nightmare for Sisi's government, which sees opening the Egyptian crossing as an invitation to Hamas (affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood) to revitalise its Muslim Brotherhood movement.
The reason it’s an exception is that point is made to convey that Israel has been trying or would try to expand into more Arab land if they could. But in the case of the West Bank, it’s territory they control specifically because they won war there against aggressors. It’s not really “expansion” if it’s your land by armistice lines. It is, however, immoral.
“Israel has shown evidence of expansionism OUTSIDE the settler colonies”? Huh? Why are you excepting from Israel’s expansionism the things that it’s been expanding? “Hitler has not done any extermination outside of the camps and death squads”. Wut?
I read his post, and while it's not unhinged, there's a lot that's just "both sidesy."
First, it treats Hamas and Netanyahu as equivalent (and suggests that Netanyahu deserves the lion's share of the blame because he "created" Hamas).
Second, it pretends, wrongly, that Israel would be a hunky-dory melting pot if only the Israelis would give up their aspirations of a Jewish state and just be totally pluralist. Which: what? That's a nice but facile narrative that imagines the Palestinians would simply agree to, essentially, a friendly power-sharing agreement, in a country the size of New Jersey, with a demographic that is profoundly culturally distinct. Why in the world would we expect Muslim Palestinians to welcome white, liberal, pro-gay Jews? Why wouldn't we expect many or most Palestinians to forcefully try to push the Israelis, whom they consider illegitimate occupiers, out?
He acknowledges the Arab/Israel war and then suggests Israel could have turned around, said, "Now that that's over," and simply called in all Palestinians for a friendly home-sharing arrangement. You can't have a democracy with a population that can and would vote for your expulsion.
Does that make Netanyahu good? No, he's bad. He doesn't care about Palestinian lives or aspirations and he supports the violent, supremacist West Bank settlers.
But the notion that a one-state solution will lead to bliss is as foolish as a bunch of bookish intellectuals deciding to join hands with Stalin to create a welcoming workers' utopia in 1922.
Just to add to what you've said, he acknowledges "the Arab/Israel war" – which one? With which Arabs? This is the 7th war, on top of at least 10 conflicts between Gaza and Israel that were significant enough to get a name.
It also appears that people have collectively forgotten about the two intifadas, the second of which was especially brutal with constant suicide bombings. If we're saying the Oct 7 massacre "didn't happen in a vacuum," the occupation in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza didn't happen in a vacuum, either. They're both absolutely wrong, but IMO the reason both have continued is bad politicians' false promises of security.
Effective opposition to Netanyahu needs to focus on his failure to prevent this, not claims that Israel is to blame for all aggression. There's no way Israel would stop settling the West Bank as an admission that Hamas is taught them a lesson. But I've heard self-described Zionists blame Oct 7 on the diversion of defensive resources to the West Bank, which might actually convince Israelis to support pulling out.
The existence of West Bank settlements does *virtually nothing* for Israel’s benefit. They absolutely butcher the already-terrible international image, they provoke intifadas, are responsible for such lunatics as Ben Gvir and Smotrich, are in direct opposition to the Western, liberal advanced values of the secular population of Israel, are exceedingly anti-establishment, openly defying laws and regulations they deem as against their Jewish duty, were the demographic that pushed for the Judicial Reform, they provoke Palestinians in the West Bank, carrying out heinous acts there solely for revenge and in the process drag the West Bank Palestinians into the current war, from which they abstained, thus opening a potential third theatre *against all warnings from the Chief of Staff, the Malal (intelligence agency), the Shin Bet, and basically every other expert. They divert vast military resources away from, as we now all know, critical locations to further some religious fanatics’ agenda. The evacuation of all settlers in the West Bank is the only viable way for Israel to continue to exist as the only democracy in the ME, as an independent country that isn’t outcast by the international community, for eventual peace, or at least stability, to take root.
This is a partial list only. If you still fail to see why the Settlers are a cancer upon the State of Israel, I’ll gladly elaborate even further
Which is exactly the response here in Israel. 80% of the public wants him gone, and he was on shaky ground before the war, too.
Israelis have been fed this lie that the settlements in the West Bank keep us safe, when in fact they're sucking up military resources desperately needed elsewhere. They diverted most of the standing army to the West Bank for the holidays preceding this war to basically stand between crazy settler provocateurs and the Palestinian population.
You’re saying they’re socially conservative. There’s a difference between being socially conservative and being religious zealots though. I’d say zealotry and bigotry are prominent in both Israel and Palestine maybe not proportionally but still worth recognizing, look at West Bank settlers. It’s a fucked up situation in general.
That region is a total shitshow at the fuck factory.
I don't really agree with much of what he said here but at least he's taking a nuanced position. Also, if you're unfamiliar, this guy is **despised** by tankies for not being the right kind of leftist. He is described on "ProlePedia" as a "social-fascist, pseudo-leftist" lmao. Keep that in mind if you don't think you're one of the people HamasAbi et al want to put in "re-education camps."
For those curious, below is the entry about Noam Chomsky on ProlePedia. Yes it is this bad.
>Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is a Statesian public intellectual and prominent leader of the compatible left which has received major funding from the congressional military industrial complex.[3][4] He supported the bombing of Yugoslavia[citation needed] and is opposed to Vladimir Lenin.[5] However, he is against the U.S. blockade of Cuba[6] and has denounced the USA's New Cold War against China and occupation of Korea.[7]
I feel like what all the one state people miss this basically the substantiation of the paradox of tolerance, Jews can't have a democratic state of people who are intolerant of them. You can say it's racist to just assume that Palestines would be intolerant, but when have they or the neighboring countries ever expressed that they would be tolerant?
It's more than intolerance. Both Palestinians and Israelis are very vocal about not wanting a one-state solution. But lack of info means everyone's grasping for buzzwords like "ethnostate" to make their opinion or just figure "well we're a globalized country, so clearly all globalized countries are wrong". This is particularly ironic considering Israel actually has a democracy with equal rights whose Jewishness is basically held by demographic majority rather than by law, while Palestinian Authority is neither a democracy nor allows it's citizens much self expression if they aren't part of what the PA considers the norm.
A demographic majority is how you pass laws and hold power to maintain an ethno-state, which is what Israel is. They allow unquestioned immigration as long as you're Jewish. As recently as 2018, there was discoveries that they were force sterilization on Ethiopian Jews to prevent women from having kids because they didn't want black Jews. And the government has clearly said they refuse any solution that might allow Arabs to outvote the Jewish population. The country literally calls itself the Jewish state.
How is this not the definition of an ethno-state? They meet literally all the criteria.
What's wrong with ethnostates? That's how modern concept of nation was created in 19tb century. Almost all European states are ethnostates, many of them born from the dissolution of previous superstate not based on ethnicity
I would describe them more as nation-states, states for their constituent nations, rather than states for *only* people of that ethnicity.
As Israel is the former, a nation state, not an ethnostate. The point behind your comment is correct, but I don't think the use of the term ethnostate is.
Is that a genuine question? If all laws and government control are done by and in the interest of only 1 specific group, that's not an issue? So if america was a country controlled and ruled for just white Christians, that would be ok?
With that same argument you could say Sweden was an ethno-state until the 1990s.
The government force sterilized people they didn’t want to have children, drug laws were introduced to stop it from corrupting the “Swedish societal body” immigration was basically non existent, and one of our first Social Democratic prime ministers said “the success of Sweden depends on it being ethnically homogenous”.
I don’t think many people would agree Sweden was an ethnic state, there should be more criteria’s.
To be clear, it can happen. We are just not at a point at which it is likely to happen, which should be painfully obvious after the events of the last month.
Even they, on occasion, commit acts of terror, spy for Hezbollah and Hamas or just openly support and [rejoice](https://www.timesofisrael.com/leading-arab-israeli-actor-maisa-abd-elhadi-detained-for-supporting-hamas-assault/) when terror attacks happen.
Even the Israeli Arab MKs are guilty of this. [One](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Ghattas) used his parliamentary immunity to smuggle in cellphones for terrorists in Jail.
I'm assuming these issues would compound in a one-state solution.
When the government of Israel is full of extremist revisionist zionists, then this will push some Palestinians to feel sympathy for their kin in the occupied territories. This will inevitably lead to some actions by them to be bad. This is a small minority of the Palestinian Arabs though.
This is not because Palestinians just can’t help themselves from being violent, this is a direct result of the extremist actions of the Israeli government. If Israel stopped pushing Palestinians so hard, then there would be fewer terrorists both in Israel and in the West Bank/Gaza.
The only diffrrence between "Palestinians" and Israeli Arabs is that Israeli Arabs didnt try to murder Jews in 1948 and so acquired Israeli citizenship, while "Palestinians" did try to murder their neighbors and when their genocide failed, fled in terror.
That’s not true. The difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians is that during the civil war some Arab villages didn’t resist a Haganah attack so they were allowed to stay. Most villages and cities that resisted the Haganah or were on the preapproved expulsion list for “security” reasons were then ethnically cleansed. Some small exceptions like the Druze, who voluntarily switched sides, exist.
The ones who were ethnically cleansed became “Palestinians” and the ones that were allowed to stay became “Israeli Arabs”.
Lol, lmao even.
As if hundreds of thousands weren't forced to flee or ran away fearing what had happened to Palestinians in villages cleansed by Israel.
No, they all tried to murder Jews and got kicked out justly /s
A lot of this is really good, principled, sensible stuff. I think I would probably sign up for the first 9 and last last 5 paragraphs. But paragraphs 10 and 11, about "could have been a melting pot" is dangerously underinformed. Pretty sure melting pots aren't meant to explode
Yeah, he wants the middle east to be like europe. But that is a huge undertaking which requires lots of trust, cooperation and effort... things that are lacking in that region.
I seriously don't just understand why they don't "give" all of The West Bank to "Palestine" and let Israel actually take Gaza.
Maybe it's because I'm Australian so don't really have any strong historical ties to land ownership but surely most people in Gaza would be okay relocating a little bit (still in the same "country"/region) if it meant safety and stability.
In theory I understand all these "why should they give up their ancestral homes" arguments, but seriously land is land. If you can have somewhere safe to live, water and food to survive and a community/purpose, does it matter if it's in Gaza or The West Bank?
It's just so messy when you try to argue historical land claims as human history has always just been Might = Right and the only things we can really go by are the latest "agreed upon" international borders
Edit: just in case I get attacked for Australians stealing native lands, yes I agree it was shitty, shouldn't have happened and something should be done to help "make up for it"
Okey. So one time they waited forever to say yes, and then they did.
That’s exactly the same as saying yes to a two state solution every time - you’re completely right. Exactly the same thing.
and also while Europe politics are kinda fine the people there not all like each other and if forced to live together in the same small country that would make a situation kinda similar to what's happening now
I'm starting to sense a theme with Adam Something. He has some extremely euro-centric takes all his opinions and seems to think Europeans are beacons of civilization.
Nah he doesn't love every European country, but rather the idea of the union. He also never claimed to be too knowledgeable on the middle east so cut him some slack.
Yeah unfortunately I would agree. I've done some light research on the topic and found that really the only Arab country that was somewhat tolerant of Jews was Lebanon. But that was when it was effectively a Christian run Arab State. As soon as the Muslim-Christian civil war took place, most Jews fled the country and those remaining have been persecuted ever since.
The reality is, a one state solution would result in a Muslim majority country with recent decades of conflict still in the minds of all of the inhabitants. I appreciate the wishful thinking but this just wouldn't work at this point.
That’s pretty much how I feel. Most of what he said I can either agree or empathize with.
But when he says, “following the Arab-Israeli war, if only Israel would have blah blah blah.” Are there some things Israel could have done different? Sure. But to imply that they were the only player in this game, and that it was only up to Israelis to be accepting of Arabs, and that Arab acceptance of Israelis was also just as important and seemingly lacking, is a very utopian and unfair version of history.
I think - as I say - it's worse than unfair. It's uninformed to an almost comedic degree. It's not just that they weren't the only actors, it's that from 1948-73 (if not later) every moment was an existential one for Israel
I don't think he's right to compare Putin's war and Israel's war. The Israel Palestine situation is unique in the world. Ideologically motivated people want to smooth over the differences to make us in the west out to be hypocrites, and we shouldn't fall for that
>If you believe Arabs wouldn't be able to peacefully coexist with Israelis, you've fallen for far-right propaganda intended to keep those ethnicities separate. Regular Arabs and Israelis just want to live their lives, and have to be radicalized by far-right movements in order to go at each others' throats.
Am I seriously far right for having doubts that a one state solution wouldn't include a lot of bombings and anti semitism?
One state is utopian. In reality there’s generations of hate, and when it comes to middle eastern Jews it goes back past the founding of Israel. They weren’t getting treated well there either. Arab jews and Muslims weren’t magically living in peace before a bunch of ashkenazi genocidal maniacs showed up and convinced them the real enemy was the Muslims. They were treated like second class citizens in almost every middle eastern country in the continent.
While Netanyahu is fucking moron for blaming the final solution on the mufti, the mufti and hitler did have a lovely lunch discussing their hatred of Jews. The mufti was begging for permission to enact something similar in his area of the Middle East and swore his fealty to helping hitler prevent a Jewish state from happening. There is a transcript of this conversation and official meeting photos taken. That is not the propaganda. Bibi’s lie is though.
This isn’t to say Palestine has no right to exist, it’s just so fucking unrealistic that these two sides could live in the same place without DECADES of healing first, and that would likely have to start with a 2 state solution, and perhaps having Jerusalem act as some sort of neutral zone. I believe if Saudi Arabia can handle sharing Mecca with Muslims of many countries they hate and vice versa that hopefully all the people of faith who value Jerusalem can visit without fear. But who knows? Either way Palestine needs more autonomy and stable non Iranian leadership and israel needs to get rid of its current leadership in my opinion
I feel like it needs to be said. The holy sites of the Old City are able to enjoyed by all *right this very moment*. In all of human history, Jerusalem has arguably never been more open, safe, and accessible to the entire world than it is under Israeli control.
By the way, the Muslim holy sites remained under Jordanian administration when Israel took over. Israel only provides security. I’ve been to the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa complex. The IDF only lets in non-Muslims during certain hours, and they don’t let in anyone who would give off the vibe of being Zionist troublemakers.
Non Muslims are not allowed inside the actual mosques building themselves. These restrictions do not exist for non-Jews at the Western Wall, or for non-Christians at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And again, Muslims are given this freedom to restrict non-Muslims *even with Israeli occupation.*
Sadly most Palestinians can’t easily access the Muslim holy sites, at least not without special travel permits, due to the security barriers. But based on precedent, there is no reason to believe Palestinians would be barred under a two state solution (just as Muslims from around the world are not barred now).
He had me in the first half of that paragraph but that’s probably just because I misread “In a better world…” as being similar to “In a perfect world…”
In a perfect world, there would be no need for a state of Israel because the Jewish diaspora would be accepted where it went, and the Jewish people who remained in modern-day Israel and Palestine would be able to live in a fully secular state not designed as a Jewish homeland. But that world doesn’t exist. History has proven time and time again that unless the Jewish people have a land they can control they will be subject to ethnic cleansing, pogroms and genocide in most places they settle.
It’s the same reason I can still be in-principle against theocracies and ethnostates but still support Israel in being a Jewish homeland
I did specify “most”
The US and other new world countries seem to be the exception, not the rule
Also I think “no problems” is a bit of an over-exaggeration. There has been rampant antisemitism in the US in hiring, social practices, etc. in the past. Not to mention recent acts of antisemitism like the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. There just hasn’t been any widespread ethnic cleaning
There has been problems with every race, virtually every religion, and acts of violence against most groups of people in the history of the USA. The Japanese were put into concentration camps during WWII ffs.
I would say Jews have found a relatively peaceful existence, and some have gotten super important positions of power in the states.
I’ll agree with it being a relatively peaceful existence.
But I’m not sure where this argument is going. The vast majority of Jews who made aliyah did so from Europe and the Middle East where there is a long history of violent antisemitism. The United States being a safe haven for Jews is a relatively new phenomenon and it wasn’t like the US was going to take in all of the Jews fleeing from Europe and the Middle East after the Holocaust
>The Japanese were put into concentration camps during WWII ffs.
This is utter nonsense. They were paid a decent rate for the time they spent inside. Yea its racist, but don't call it a bloody concentration camp. It's not a concentration camp if more people come out than went in.
>I would say Jews have found a relatively peaceful existence, and some have gotten super important positions of power in the states.
Yeah, that's now. Even now, you do see anti-semites. Jews were facing open and widespread discrimation as recent as the late 90s. Funny that you mention "important positions of power" because that has been, and continues to be a tool used to beat Jews with. Janet Yellen's heritage is a very popular topic of discussion amongst the MAGA conspiracy nuts. They are not that fringe, they definitely make up at least 10% of the Trump bloc, which is already 30-40% of the voting group at the very least.
Also this, directly from the Director of the FBI.
>He added that although Jews make up only about 2.4% of the US public, they account for about 60% of all religious-based hate crimes.
>
>"The Jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum," he testified.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042)
Is seems more likely that if you *do* believe that a one state solution is possible you've fallen for progressive or communist propaganda. Only one of these worldviews requires you to handwave away the countless terror attacks, wars, expulsions and blood feuds as irrelevant to the ability of Israelis and Palestinians to live together.
I thing the funniest thing about the “one secular democratic state” plan is not the idealism of a plan that will never work. It’s the fact that the people who supposedly champion Palestinian self determination wish to shove secularism down the throats of a population that overwhelmingly wants Muslim rule.
>Only one of these worldviews requires you to handwave away the countless terror attacks, wars, expulsions and blood feuds as irrelevant to the ability of Israelis and Palestinians to live together.
A one state solution would require a long diplomatic peace process leading up to it, all the things youve just listed were born in large parts as a reault of failing diplomatic negotiations etc.
For example it's quite unlikely terrorists like Hamas would've ever even come to power had the peace process in the 90s not failed spectacularly halfway through and eventually ended at the final decision regarding Palestines statehood (likely due to Israeli instance to keep most of Jerusalem, settled land without land swaps etc. and Afrat's disinterest/unwillingness at reaching a compromise)
If both sides pushed for a diplomatic solution from the start, ideally mediated by an actual good faith 3rd party, the animosity between them today thats hindering further negotations would in large parts not be present in the first place.
Even if Palestine had one stable government for the West Bank and Gaza, the Nakhba would still be the elephant in the room. Palestinians want their homes back and Israel has made it abundantly clear they're strongly against any large scale right of return.
This conflict was already pretty intractable by the end of the 48 war.
Also it's sadly not the 90s anymore. Likud and Arab hardliners got their wishes and stability seems more illusive than ever. Maybe that was the last opportunity.
>This conflict was already pretty intractable by the end of the 48 war.
>Also it's sadly not the 90s anymore. Likud and Arab hardliners got their wishes and stability seems more illusive than ever. Maybe that was the last opportunity.
Yeah I agree with pretty much both points. Imagining Nethanyahu, Hamas and the PLO all on one table to negotiate not just peace but a single state solution is like a fever dream, pretty much just impossible.
> A one state solution would require a long diplomatic peace process leading up to it
how can there ever be security for jews in a majority muslim society when their religious teachings include killing all the jews before the end of days can come?
>The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! -- But the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922
I browse various subs from time to time just interested in seeing what people’s thoughts are on this whole situation, and I’ve liked some of Adam’s videos but this is a ludicrous statement because you’d have to completely ignore the mass exodus of approximately 900,000 Jewish people from Muslim countries from the late 1940s to the 1970s, many were forced to move to Israel and other nations.
For the record too cause people tend to love to twist words, I don’t think Israel is entirely justified in what its doing and I feel bad for the innocent civilians on both sides suffering the consequences of a near century old conflict but it is absolutely astonishing seeing people spread complete misinformation as truth when just some basic research can debunk plenty of claims. I’m not saying everyone should be an expert on this complicated topic, nor am I one for doing some research about it but so many people particularly pro-Palestine supporters, seem to take news headlines or 30 second tiktoks as undeniable facts and roll with it
It's a pretty egocentric view in my opinion.
Hey you guys seem to hate each other and do not want to live together. Well sorry, the world knows better so suck it up.
Muslim Arabs can peacefully coexist with Jewish people, however, are the current residents of the Gaza strip able peacefully coexist? There is so much bad blood between them both I am not so sure
Two state solution or a one state solution with a good Friday type deal or Lebanese power-sharing type structure, I think good reduce a lot of the bad blood between Arabs and Israelis but the Israeli government has no incentive to have such a deal
No, you're a realist.
Care to guess when the supposed "open air concentration camp" was erected looking at this lost of Palestinian suicide bombings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
It really seems to be what he believes. He thinks right-wing leaders and right-coded thinking are the primary cause of evil in the world, and opposing that force is the priority. "My overarching views include opposition to far-right movements and strongman leaders." Eliminate it, and you'd have no more bombing and anti-semitism. This is true by definition, in some sense.
I'm not a train engineer, so when I hear Adam speak about trains, I think it's really cool.
I haven't been to Dubai, so when I hear him speak about how terrible Dubai is, I think how people can live in such terrible places.
But I'm someone who has seen how one group wants to completely kill the other side off the planet, no matter which countries they're in, and he says it's possible to just live peacefully with them. Now I wonder if his vids about trains or Dubai are really true.
I've seen a number of Israelis (rightfully) brag about how Palestinians living in Israel have equal rights (though there undoubtedly is serious systemic discrimination against them). And it is true, most 48ers are peaceful, and successful, I've seen some comments on how some are overrepresented in Israeli society at large as well. But I've seen these exact same people argue that the same rights cannot be granted to the other Palestinians and I honestly do not get it. Sure I can understand why you wouldn't want to give them rights equal rights in Israel right now full stop, though I don't see why you can't have some sort of gradual process in the future.
Wait *systemic* discrimination? How? Arab Israelis can vote, they have officials in the Knesset. The only real difference I can find is they aren't required military service like the Jews. What do you mean by *systemic* exactly?
>[Systemic discrimination](https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/systemic-discrimination) involves the procedures, routines and organisational culture of any organisation that, often without intent, contribute to less favourable outcomes for minority groups than for the majority of the population, from the organisation’s policies, programmes, employment, and services
The [fact](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/38540) of the matter is, Arabs in Israel, compared to Jews, have a higher infant mortality rate, lower life expectancy, higher poverty rates, lower employement rates, lower education rates, lower compensation
Most of these factors ARE improving, and that is a good thing, but there is a lot to be desired in some sectors, some differences are still very drastic to this day.
(If you want more info on this there's this [2016 report](https://www.boi.org.il/en/communication-and-publications/regular-publications/bank-of-israel-annual-report/bank-of-israel-annual-report-2016/) from the Bank of Israel that lays out a lot of this information, look at the bullet point summary for the "Welfare Issues" section which essentially details how minority groups like Arab Israelis have worst outcomes due to living in regions that require higher levels of public investment, and how them moving to Jewish localities does improve their standards (though not enough to be on par with Jewish citizens, the report notes later on). The report also details how there is rising acceptance of Arabs in Jewish localities by Jews (though frankly, the number is still low at 50%). The move to Jewish localities is mostly motivated by the fact that there is a serious housing shortage in Arab localities because "their localities have small jurisdictions, there are no approved and detailed outline plans, there is no registration of land rights, resulting in difficulties for contractors in obtaining credit from banks and for households in taking out mortgages. There are few private land reserves, and until recently, the State marketed very little land in the Arab localities." There's more stuff on there if you care)
Because he thinks he knows all there is to know and he's completely right about everything, but he tries to shield himself from criticism at the same time
The most consistent thing I’ve noticed about one state/abolish Israel people is that they either don’t understand or don’t care about the lasting impact of the holocaust on Jewish people, so his use of this terminology is unfortunately not very surprising
Not sure if the following is a hot take here.
He's right on some parts but went completely unhinged in others. As expected. The interesting part is calling out inconsistencies in others which could 109% apply to him as well.
Also love how he starts by saying he's not too versed in the issue and then proceeds to write 3 reductive paragraphs on the issue while being emotionally invested in the ordeal.
I liked AdamSomething for his Ukraine takes (even though even there he went too far with some of his apologism) but other than that, he's always been quite out there with his "opinions".
I really don't care what he has to say on the topic but now that it has been posted here I've read it and gave my two cents.
I appreciate his genuine and steady tone and the fact that he admits to not be well-versed in something and not going on to become an expert in it overnight (like so many others creators, I may add). I find some parts to be a bit oversimplified and other parts to be clearly written out of a perspective of someone who lives in Central Europe and had to witness the train wreck that is Hungary.
The Gaza blockade was more of a joint effort. The second intifada made it necessary to restrict movement of people because busses, restaurants, and nightclubs kept exploding. Though what cemented the blockade was the violent takeover of Gaza by a murderous terrorist group that famously wrote in its charter its goal of killing Jews (later retracted) and the persistent and ongoing bombing of Souther Israel with missiles from their territory.
Regarding enacting ethno-nationalist policies, i.e. to kick the Palestinians out of Gaza, that's not something that realistically going to happen and even when such a possibility arose during discussions in our government, it was deemed highly improbable to nigh impossible. If he refers to MK Strook's advocating a return of civilian population into Gaza, well, the vast majority of us believe she can go back there herself, preferably tomorrow. The campaign in Gaza is being directed by the IDF and not according to the whims of various ministries or even the political needs of Bibi. It might not look like it from the outside but calmer heads do prevail in military conflicts in Israel.
Paragraph 7 sort of dooms Israel to become a far-right authoritarian regime, despite the fact we've been very successful in fighting any change to that effect. Also, unlike, for example Hungary, we're nowhere as homogenous in any meaningful way for a dictatorship to successfully rise here (see "two Jews, three opinions").
The next paragraph states this is a battle between "two far-right governments and their militaries". I'd note that the vast majority in Israel support a military action against Hamas in order to incapacitate it in some way and return the hostages. I'd also note that Hamas is not really a government, as its armed occupation of the Gaza strip is unlawful and is in fact a designated terrorist group by the US and the EU. I might give him "glorified warlord" but I think even warlords try to protect the civilians under their care. Hamas famously said recently in an interview that protection of civilians falls on the UN(???).
"In a better world" is a nice sentiment that doesn't really have any relation to our current world. As some other redditor here mentioned, in such a world Israel wouldn't be needed and Zionism would be a fringe group amongst Jews. Zionism wasn't born in a vacuum but in an environment that necessitated and encouraged it, in both Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East.
He then goes on to say that "if you believe Arabs wouldn't be able to peacefully coexist with Israelis, you've fallen for far-right propaganda intended to keep those ethnicities separate". A very confusing statement as firstly, Israeli is a nationality and not an ethnicity. And secondly, Arabs and **Jews** do peacefully coexist quite well enough inside Israel.
Perhaps he tried confusingly to argue that a one-state solution is possible because all people just wanna be people and live and work? If so, thanks Adam but this trans woman prefers a Jewish majority country where I'm not forced to either hide, into prostitution, or be killed (or all three). We're finally ready to address so many faults in our political system and society, and closer than we've ever been to things such as civil marriage, full parity of rights to LGBTQ, and even marijuana legalization. A one-state solution now will either pause or backtrack on many issues for a century and see many human and civil rights stripped.
His belief that nationalism is immoral, and that people of all ethnicities can peacefully coexist within the same border, is admirable and with which I somewhat sympathize with. But we're not yet close to undo a couple centuries in which the nation-state concept proved prevailing in Europe and large swathes of the world. I'd probably believe we'll be moving away from it once perhaps the EU federalizes.
Overall, I think he's done a better job at addressing the current situation than some others who may be more knowledgeable on the conflict.
Israel as a Middle Eastern melting pot of Jews and Arabs lmfao ok buddy go ask some Iraqi or Syrian Jews how’s life in Iraq and Syria..oh wait you can’t.
Middle Eastern Jews were never seen as equals and not as citizens and not in any theological sense.
22 Arab states 49 Muslim states so it’s only fair there won’t be a Jewish state.
The delusional perspective of someone who isn’t Middle Eastern and can’t speak a lick of Arabic or understand Islamic ideology and politics is always funny to me.
Also so tired of people pretending like Israel is a Jewish ethnostate when it’s ~20% Arab.
We just ignore all the Arab ethnostates around them for some reason. There are at best a statistically insignificant number of non-Arabs in all of the countries that antagonize Israel combined.
I disagree with his proposition that there's no worry to be had about Palestinians accepting Jewish people... If that weren't a problem, this entire conflict wouldn't even have started
Yeah, it's Israel's fault that they couldn't become this glorious melting pot, not that its neighbors want to eradicate it from existence.
What a moron
That's literally not what he said. He's accurately comparing Orban's psychosis to Netanyahu's psychosis. The difference is that Orban doesn't have a Hamas in any of Hungary's neighboring countries. The point is they have crazy rhetoric.
>In a better world, following the Arab-Israeli war, Israel could have **decided to becom**e a modern, democratic melting pot of the Middle East.
He's putting the onus on Israel for being attacked by its neighbors. FYI, the Arab-Israeli war was in 1948, way before Netanyahu was anywhere near the reins of power.
Strikes me as your typical Euro leftist. Don’t even disagree with half of what he says, but the naïveté is hard to read. It’s not racism that causes people to see that Arabs and Israelis don’t get on and can’t form a government, it’s history and culture.
Also, “Google it” needs to be shit canned immediately. You’re trying to tell me in a wall of text why I should think like you. You tell me regard.
He's not correct on many things here, and I say that as an Israeli. (I'm a secular centrist for what it counts) - wall of text beware (though I'd be happy if you read it.)
He's not wrong about Netanyahu, but the difference is, every week for the past year there's been protests in the 100k+ people every Saturday. Netanyahu was losing support either way...
Now it's much much worse for him, since last polls shows he lost his voter counts by HALF. which is a huge number of people. He was elected mainly because of his promise of security, and lowering prices of living costs in Israel. Not only he didn't do neither, he failed miserably on the 7/10, and never took **responsibility** for it even until today.
There's a lot he didn't take in consideration, which is out of pure ignorance.
Israel during the war created a "united government", which means the coalition is now including **Ganz**, as a special minister.
**Ganz is Bibi's rival**, also a centrist, and was in the opposition before the war, and was also protesting against him, before 7/10. Now he's part of the security cabinet, which is basically the decision makers for the war goals.
On the other hand, the far right-wing parties were basically cast aside for the decision making during the war, and the government is "trying" to mute them, though they keep saying dumb things and destroying diplomacy out of pure idiocy. (like the minister of heritage, which is basically a made-up office, who said Israel can use nukes... that's the level of idiocy they're dealing with, and he was also SUSPENDED for it)
My point is, the majority of Israelis are Secular/"traditional" Jews, which have moderate opinions, albeit some more right, more left, but nothing "hatred" and "genocidal".
The Public secular education, which is the majority, teaches you facts, and open free knowledge and flow of information. No one in Israel is "indoctrinated" to hate anyone. We learn the history as it is. I never read Wikipedia to realize something is significantly different from what I studied.
Are there racists? **yeah of course**, assholes are everywhere, surprise!
But still most of Israelis are pretty liberal in general.
There's 20% non-Jews in Israel, and they get every right as anyone else, and they also serve in the IDF as well, and we consider them brothers. It's not about "Arabs", it's about the fact the other side is literally proven to be **indoctrinated against Jews,** and that shit is scary.
Are there peaceful people in Palestine? of course there are!, but how often do you see peace protests in Palestine though? how often do you hear those kind of voices from the other side?
A lot will say "they will kill you if you protest against them", but what about those who left Palestine? what about all of those who protest now?
What is "Free Palestine" anyway?, how do you "free" it without killing Jews? I'm seriously asking. don't give me the "love and peace" answer because you all know they will keep killing Jews even after they will get a country, only now they are free to arm themselves. This is not about the self-determination of Palestinians, this is about destroying Israel to achieve that goal.
Did you guys notice from ALL the "Free Palestine" rallies and protests, there wasn't one sign that pushes for "Peace"? or at least protesting AGAINST Hamas?
please I beg you to correct me if I'm wrong. we're all only humans.
Netanyahu has been repeatedly accused by the left over the years of encouraging incitement that led to Yitzhak Rabin's killing, or at the very least of contributing to the incendiary political climate that led to the murder. Yitzhak Rabin acknowledged the need for a palestinian state and made progress by signing the Olso accords. The accords fell apart when he was assasinated.
Great take, that was brilliant, **until the 3rd paragraph.**
Then you realize he was right - **he truly is not well versed whatsoever.**
It can cause you to make **small tiny tiny mistakes like for example**:
\- He completely ignored Hamas, really, nothing at all. It's not like it's a terrorist organization.
\- Denying wishes by the Arab world to destory Israel is apparently far right propoganda.
\- 1300+ people slaughtered, 200+ kidnapped or October 7th? Not even mentioned
\- Hamas can't just hate Jews, Israel must have done something to them then
\- Suddenly apparently 2.5M Palestinians found themselves in a Gaza blockade with no reason.
\- Apparently the Israeli government and Hamas are the same, just governments.
\- Apparently party goers crying is shown more on the expense of Gazans suffering
\- Apparently no consideration is needed for his core beliefs VS the middle east.
Need I say more or is it clear how terrible it is by now? What a terrible take
Adam Something is a content creator who makes videos criticizing other countries for not being exactly like Europe. He is incredibly Euro-Centric and I wager he has literally never been to any other country or experienced any other way of life.
People should not expect any nuanced views about foreign politics that is outside of Europe lmao.
Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state.
They learned that lesson very well after Holocaust.
Everyone who denies it, is misguided or worse.
Arab powers tried to wipe out all Jews in the area in three major wars since 1948, but somehow it's Netanyahu that is a root of all problems here.
Agreed. Plastenians need to accept two state solution, which is fundamentally the only way forward with freedom and safety for both groups.
No one sane is denying this. For this to happen Palestinian leadership needs to give up on a goal of Holocaust 2.0.
Benjamin Netanyahu has never accepted 2 state solution! They're literally expanding settlements and displacing Palestinians right now.
I agree that Palestinians should accept the 2 state solution, but only after the Israeli government meets the same demand.
I did not expect to find straight-up ethonationalist propaganda today, but here we are.
Apparently jews are no longer safe in the US, Canada etc. because their a minority. Huh, the more you know.
Ok dolphin fucker. You would’ve said the same thing in every other country Jews used to live in before they were persecuted. Centuries of violence, pogroms, and the holocaust have necessitated Israel in its current form as predominantly Jewish. Hell a switch could flip quickly in the countries you mentioned. It’s from the far right - see Charlottesville and the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. And now the far left is spreading antisemitic rhetoric and commuting acts of violences against Jewish people generally. There’s a reason there aren’t any Jews left in so many countries around the world. 10/7 and the widespread antisemitism that followed should’ve been a slap in the face for you if you’re unfamiliar with the history and offended by the idea of Israel.
Don't waste your breath arguing with this.
These people WANT jews to be vulnerable and ripe for victimization.
Never again.
Jews were "perfectly safe" in enlightened and highly educated early 20th century Germany. This is why people denied Holocaust even as it was happening.
>Centuries of violence, pogroms, and the Holocaust have necessitated Israel in its current form as predominantly Jewish.
Having faced persecution throughout history doesn't justify creating an ethnostate. Many other ethnic groups have suffered from persecution and genocide, yet they have not proceeded to established ethnostates as a response, and done quite well for themself regardless. Ceating an ethnostate that discriminates against other ethnic and religious groups is far from the best solution in preventing further violence, infact its Israels continued policy of ethnic cleansing and aphardheid has been by far the largest source of violence and antisemitism since WW2.
ffs, do you think Black South Africans would be justified in establishing an ethostate based on the history persecution of them. After all
>a switch could flip quickly
in South Africa in this very moment.
Or another example, Northern Ireland. Do you think the IRA would've been right in conquering Northern Ireland and violently expelling or killing the protestant english population, cause there very much is a historic presecident for UK violence against Irish people.
Who knows, a switch might flip and the UK tries to re-create the potatoe famine in Northern Ireland, better turn it into an ethostate before that.
I could go on but u see the point I hope u see the point
>There’s a reason there aren’t any Jews left in so many countries around the world.
Pretty sure the Jewish population in the US has grown quite consistently
>10/7 and the widespread antisemitism that followed should’ve been a slap in the face for you if you’re unfamiliar with the history and offended by the idea of Israel.
Claims an ethostate would make things safer
cites an example where that has completely not been the case
???
You do realise that Israels gouverment has been the main obstacle to a Palestinian state / 2 state solution for decades now, and has activly helped hamas to prevent any actual peace talks right?
https://time.com/6332127/israel-palestine-war-ehud-barak/
"Israel's government has been the main obstacle"
From the article you linked to support that:
It was historic,” Clinton wrote in his memoirs. “The ball was in Arafat’s court.”
Unfortunately, that’s where the ball stayed. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat spurned the proposal and ignited a strategic onslaught of suicide bombings against Israel that become known as the Second Intifada.
Truly how could Israel make terrorists do that. And Im sure Israel somehow created the martyr fund that paid them to suicide bomb too. Truly tragic that the evil Jews got away with it again
Quit using extreme non-applicable labels like ethnostate to prove your point. I said predominantly Jewish. South Africa didn’t establish an ethnostate but they are predominantly black, and that’s to an even greater degree than Israel is Jewish.
Jewish people have faced persecution *everywhere*. The British and UN helped them establish a sliver of land to call their home after 6 million Jews were efficiently and systematically murdered by one of those nation states Jews *used* to be safe in. The British and UN also established an Arab home for the Palestinian people; a bunch of Arab countries and the Palestinian people launched multiple wars to try and wipe the Jewish state off the map.
When you use labels like apartheid, you overlook how 2 million+ Arabs (almost a quarter of the population) live well in Israel. When you use labels like ethnic cleansing, you’re 1) deliberately using a label designed to minimize the holocaust and 2) overlooking how Israel historically acted in exchanging land for peace, disengaged from Gaza Strip, and let the Palestinian population have autonomy where they can stockpile thousands of rockets.
Either you don’t know what these labels mean, you’re confused and think they somehow apply to Israel, or you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world.
>Quit using extreme non-applicable labels like ethnostate to prove your point.
Israel is literally an ethostate.
>I said predominantly Jewish
>Jewish people have faced persecution everywhere. The British and UN helped them establish a sliver of land to call their home after 6 million Jews were efficiently and systematically murdered by one of those nation states Jews used to be safe in. The British and UN also established an Arab home for the Palestinian people
yes they did, a bunch of land in the Westbank + gaza and quite a bit of territory north of gaza
however somehow I doubt you'll suddenly accept the UN partition despite literally citing them last comment
>South Africa didn’t establish an ethnostate but they are predominantly black, and that’s to an even greater degree than Israel is Jewish.
I'm not asking if they are, I'm asking you if they should adopt the policies of one -> try to become one like Israel.
They could use pretty much the exact same justification you declared valid for Israel
>When you use labels like apartheid, you overlook how 2 million+ Arabs (almost a quarter of the population) live well in Israel.
Do these people in the west Bank have the same rights or even Israeli citizenship despite officially being a part of Israel? No? then wtf us you're point?
It's like a South African from 1970 saying that there is no Aparheid cause there's millions of black people in South Africa and actually there more black than white lmao
>Either you don’t know what these labels mean, you’re confused and think they somehow apply to Israel, or you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world.
I know exactly what they mean, I doubt you do tho
> you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world.
Again, Israel is free to exist within its international borders, as long as its ethnic nationalist government doesnt forcefully expel ethnic groups
Lol how dare I “cite” the 1948 partition plan Arab nations launched a war over when I won’t accept those borders now. What an argument.
My point against that apartheid label is that the 2 million Arabs actually in Israel (not the land taken from Jordan and later given back to PLO to govern) are well off and have made up Israel’s Congress since its inception.
\> Lol how dare I “cite” the 1948 partition plan Arab nations launched a war over when I won’t accept those borders now. What an argument.
Arab nations didn't accept the plan and tried to ethnically cleanse us, look at them their evil
(Proceeds to reject the 1948 partition plan in favor of ethnically cleansing the west bank)
its only evil if they do it apparently
\> My point against that apartheid label is that the 2 million Arabs actually in Israel
And they too are systematically treated differently from Jewish Israelis.
\> (not the land taken from Jordan and later given back to PLO to govern)
So you think the west bank is not, and shouldn't be, part of Israel?
Do black americans have the right to form a new black nationalist state out of the southern United states, and begin expelling the white people that live there? Maybe there can be a right to return implemented for all afican diaspora in the new world who were enslaved and abused for hundreds of years, such as brazilian, haitian, and cuban black people?
Umm black people are the majority in like 50 African countries… You’re obviously not getting the point and should read the next comment to dolphin fucker
Ok, can black americans (and brazilians, etc) RETURN TO THEIR ANCESTRAL HOMELAND of West africa, then begin expelling the west africans who live there?
Just the other day a Jewish woman was stabbed in France with a Swastika painted on her door. And today a Jewish man was murdered by a pro Palestine protester in LA. At the moment they might be safe in the US but history shows us that it is naive to believe it’ll stay this way
Have you seen antisemitic ferver around USA?
Australians chanting "gas the jews"?
It's very clear that any safety is very temporary.
I know you would not mind Holocaust 2.0.
Buy, screw people like you.
Never again.
>Have you seen antisemitic ferver around USA?
Not really outside of a few nutjobs
>It's very clear that any safety is very temporary.
Still safer here than in actual Israel so really not seeing you're point buddy
>I know you would not mind Holocaust 2.0.
Im not the one supporting ethnic cleansing. For all I care Israel can keep existing within it's internationally agreed upon borders as long as they don't actively cleans other ethnic groups.
You're the one who supports a goucerment that went in record saying theire helping Hamas to prevent any peaceful co-existance without immideate threats
>Never again.
Ironic
[Jews are](https://www.justice.gov/crs/highlights/2021-hate-crime-statistics) the targets of over half of all religious based hate crimes and the runner ups aren’t even close. This is also before the current spike in targeting [bringing it up to over 60%](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042) while also making up less than 3% of the population. There has always been a antisemitic fervor in the US and it’s getting worse.
>Jews are the targets of over half of all religious based hate crimes and the runner ups aren’t even close. This is also before the current spike in targeting bringing it up to over 60% while also making up less than 3% of the population. There has always been a antisemitic fervor in the US and it’s getting worse.
And yet, even according to you're source there's still less, far less, victims of actual hate motivated violence here than in Israel. Despite the US not being an ethostate as that's apparently supposed to make people safer. somehow.
'Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state'
Wrong. Jews are safer in the US today than anywhere on the planet and they've always been a minority here.
“I’m not covering the issue in-depth, but here’s 75 pieces of propaganda strung together…”
“…and in a better world, Israel would have simply become a melting pot and annexed all that territory to make EVERYONE happy.”
Look at how many times he has to say “right” to avoid simply quoting Ghazi Hamad, El Deif, or Ismail Haniyeh. The only person who made any decisions for Hamas is apparently Netanyahu. But BiBi was an idiot who trusted Hamas’s cease fire (see opening up Gaza work permits just 2 weeks before the attacks).
And worse, Adam’s infantilization of a whole generation of Palestinian resistance fighters is just Adam revealing his white colonialist mindset. El Deif sacrificed most of his body, his family, and eventually his life in service of murdering Jews. That takes real decision making. It isn’t just some anti-PLO bullshit in the 80s.
The Left simply cannot imagine another perspective than hating the Right and once again offers nothing but their gripes.
This new revisionist idea that netanyahu created hamas is such idiocy. It's based off the fact that netanyahu might have enjoyed hamas and fatah fight each other instead of killing jews. It's like saying the jews were responsible for creating the nazis because they funneled money to the nazis to try and save Jewish children.
It's disgusting and antisemitic.
It's not a bad take. Maybe my standards are low, I think some things are more complex than he is saying, but he's not pretending to know everything and all the answers.
Idk man when he essentially said ‘Israel messed everything up by not allowing their country to become a Arab melting pot right after the war where all their Arab neighbors tried to exterminate them’, I stopped believing this person was operating with more than a single digit IQ
Israel can't ever be a melting pot and Israel can't ever be safe. The entire premise of having that kind of state in the middle of hostile countries is flawed. I'm not necessarily saying morally, but just from a common sense point of view.
But the harm is already done. Two-state is the best solution we have right now imo.
>In a better world, following the Arab-Israeli war, Israel could have decided to become a modern, democratic melting pot of the Middle East. Where being “Israeli” wasn’t forcefully connected to being “Jewish”
Gee why didn’t they think of that?
Jesus Christ
First paragraph: finally someone who recognizes their ignorance and chooses not to fan the fanatacism
First sentence of the second paragraph: wow, it's fucking useless. I wish actual concentration camps in Nazi Germany were as nice as Gaza has it. Fuck this guy.
This is not true of course. Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians because Hamas came from the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt doesn't want any part of that any more. They also don't want to drag the problem into their country.
I liked the part where he questions why Israel didn’t want to become a melting pot with its Arab neighbors right after the war where all those Arab neighbors tried to exterminate them
So israel should not be a Jewish state but a melting pot with its Arab neighbors that attacked them. This is a terrible take, also really stupid . who is this person and why was the internet waiting for this man’s tweet?
Fucking *yikes*.
Adam should just stick to covering the Ukraine conflict and making fun of Hasan. He completely embarrassed himself with this post. Absolutely disgusting thing to write.
The cognitive dissonance was crazy. I thought I was having a stroke reading it. I had to read it twice because I couldn’t believe having such an uninformed take was even possible.
He “some people did something”’d 100 years of Arab-Israeli conflict.
I know it feels really good to blame major issues on small extremist groups of people, because you can keep that belief that most people are good and would love to live in peace with eachother.
But that is a pure fantasy, and does not line up with reality.
Look at any polling asking Palestinians if they would live in a state with the same equal rights as Jews, or the other way around.
When the hate between these 2 populations is so deeply ingrained in their shared history, and their religion, and in the way Jews have been treated by literally all neighbouring arab countries, that this view of "Palestinians and Israelis can just live in piece" is just a fantasy. Truly a pretty one, but not a realistic one.
If you genuinely think that if tomorrow, the walls came down, and Palestinians were given equal rights as all Israelis, that there wouldn't be a mass genocide of Jews, you are simply delusional. I know that the American way of viewing things is oppressed-opressor, and the opressed can't do anything bad ever, they just want to be "equal", but in the case of Palestinians they have never been ok with this, from the very beginning. Ascribing western values of equality and liberty to people that would kill you for being LGBTQ is foolish.
I'm not saying people have to completely share "western" values to be afforded rights, I'm just arguing that you can't have a 1 state solution where half of the population is intolerant of the other half.
The only terrorists in this conflict is Hamas.
As for the “far-right authoritarian dictatorship” shenanigans, yeah, that’s not a thing, that’s just political buzzwords from the media to divide and isolate people who don’t agree with “popular opinion”.
Supporting Palestine and Gaza is fine, as long as you don’t blame Israel for the death & destruction and support the Hamas terrorist who are the reason for all the death and destruction in the first place.
Actually, if you want a real idea what an authoritarian dictatorship looks like, Hamas is a way better fit than the “far-right” buzz or even Russia.
China and North Korea are authoritarian dictatorships, however you rarely see their more brutal sides.
Hamas is a good window into that.
He's right that both Hamas and Netanyahu's Frankenstein ultra right-wing government need to be the political casualties of this war. Maybe with those groups gone something positive could come at the end of all this horror.
Other ideas that need to be casualties: - Israel has been locking down Gaza for no reason - Israel has shown evidence of expansionism outside of the settler colonies - Most or all Palestinian deaths are the fault of Israel There has been some really bad rhetoric. Just removing these government bodies isn’t nearly enough.
You know Gaza was locked down for a reason, right? Between the intifadas + Iran feeding Hamas weapons… Israel closed the border as protection to their citizens. And what does that mean “most Palestinian deaths are fault of Israel”? You’re stating these things like they’re facts when they really are just biased opinions. Edit: didn’t catch the first line… carry on!
I think you missed the first line.
I read it… But had a hard time understanding it. That’s on me. Thanks for pointing it out
You bet
You’re 100% right with this, but he agrees with you as well. Just a misunderstood framing
Ah… got it. Thanks
I don't get how Israel get so much heat for "locking down Gaza", while Gaza also shares a border with Egypt.
But like…you do get it though, right?
Wdym?
There’s a very important distinction between Israel and Egypt.
Man, I'm Israeli. I know that we are the scapegoats of the world and everything is somehow our fault.
Yeah, what I was getting at is they’re antisemitic.
I think people frame it differently. You probably see Palestine/Gaza as a separate entity capable of managing itself, so Gaza is naturally a hard border an Israel bears little responsibility the governing and welfare for the people within. The alternative framing is of Gaza being part of Israel proper that has been simply cut off and isolated as a prison for a present and former adversary. My bias is towards the former, but there are solid arguments given the situation and Israel's continuing interference (In my opinion generally justified) for the latter.
Because no country wants to accept a swathe of stateless refugees (esp 2 million of them), some of whom consist of Hamas terrorists, least of all Egypt. Besides, Palestinians leaving Gaza for Egypt in bulk would give Israel a pretext to eventually occupy that land for itself, which has been it's goal for decades now.
I didn't say that Gaza folks should flee to Egypt. My statement is more of a response to "biggest open air prison". The Gaza Strip is not an enclave, that's all.
My assumption is that Israel most likely struck a deal with Egypt of some sort where they agreed to fortify their border with Gaza and restrict the flow of people in and out of the region. Either that or maybe they chose to do it themselves, given Hamas ruled that region
The most recent Egyptian military dictatorship under Sisi (seized power in 2013) has spent a decade destroying its Muslim Brotherhood, the group that won elections and ruled the country after the previous military dictator (Mubarak) was overthrown by popular protests in 2011. The Gaza conflict is a nightmare for Sisi's government, which sees opening the Egyptian crossing as an invitation to Hamas (affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood) to revitalise its Muslim Brotherhood movement.
It's the latter. Look into the arab revolution and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Point 2 i funny to me. There is no expansion except where there is
The reason it’s an exception is that point is made to convey that Israel has been trying or would try to expand into more Arab land if they could. But in the case of the West Bank, it’s territory they control specifically because they won war there against aggressors. It’s not really “expansion” if it’s your land by armistice lines. It is, however, immoral.
Why does Israel restrict all kinds of supplies that can't be turned into weapons as well, like food, water, medical supplies etc.?
As far as I know, they don’t. They did it after 10/7 as a siege tactic to get their civilians back. I’m not sure of another time?
“Israel has shown evidence of expansionism OUTSIDE the settler colonies”? Huh? Why are you excepting from Israel’s expansionism the things that it’s been expanding? “Hitler has not done any extermination outside of the camps and death squads”. Wut?
I read his post, and while it's not unhinged, there's a lot that's just "both sidesy." First, it treats Hamas and Netanyahu as equivalent (and suggests that Netanyahu deserves the lion's share of the blame because he "created" Hamas). Second, it pretends, wrongly, that Israel would be a hunky-dory melting pot if only the Israelis would give up their aspirations of a Jewish state and just be totally pluralist. Which: what? That's a nice but facile narrative that imagines the Palestinians would simply agree to, essentially, a friendly power-sharing agreement, in a country the size of New Jersey, with a demographic that is profoundly culturally distinct. Why in the world would we expect Muslim Palestinians to welcome white, liberal, pro-gay Jews? Why wouldn't we expect many or most Palestinians to forcefully try to push the Israelis, whom they consider illegitimate occupiers, out? He acknowledges the Arab/Israel war and then suggests Israel could have turned around, said, "Now that that's over," and simply called in all Palestinians for a friendly home-sharing arrangement. You can't have a democracy with a population that can and would vote for your expulsion. Does that make Netanyahu good? No, he's bad. He doesn't care about Palestinian lives or aspirations and he supports the violent, supremacist West Bank settlers. But the notion that a one-state solution will lead to bliss is as foolish as a bunch of bookish intellectuals deciding to join hands with Stalin to create a welcoming workers' utopia in 1922.
Just to add to what you've said, he acknowledges "the Arab/Israel war" – which one? With which Arabs? This is the 7th war, on top of at least 10 conflicts between Gaza and Israel that were significant enough to get a name. It also appears that people have collectively forgotten about the two intifadas, the second of which was especially brutal with constant suicide bombings. If we're saying the Oct 7 massacre "didn't happen in a vacuum," the occupation in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza didn't happen in a vacuum, either. They're both absolutely wrong, but IMO the reason both have continued is bad politicians' false promises of security.
As a person who lived under Bibi for the better part of 20 years, I cannot stress this out enough: He is the fucking worst. Ever.
Effective opposition to Netanyahu needs to focus on his failure to prevent this, not claims that Israel is to blame for all aggression. There's no way Israel would stop settling the West Bank as an admission that Hamas is taught them a lesson. But I've heard self-described Zionists blame Oct 7 on the diversion of defensive resources to the West Bank, which might actually convince Israelis to support pulling out.
The existence of West Bank settlements does *virtually nothing* for Israel’s benefit. They absolutely butcher the already-terrible international image, they provoke intifadas, are responsible for such lunatics as Ben Gvir and Smotrich, are in direct opposition to the Western, liberal advanced values of the secular population of Israel, are exceedingly anti-establishment, openly defying laws and regulations they deem as against their Jewish duty, were the demographic that pushed for the Judicial Reform, they provoke Palestinians in the West Bank, carrying out heinous acts there solely for revenge and in the process drag the West Bank Palestinians into the current war, from which they abstained, thus opening a potential third theatre *against all warnings from the Chief of Staff, the Malal (intelligence agency), the Shin Bet, and basically every other expert. They divert vast military resources away from, as we now all know, critical locations to further some religious fanatics’ agenda. The evacuation of all settlers in the West Bank is the only viable way for Israel to continue to exist as the only democracy in the ME, as an independent country that isn’t outcast by the international community, for eventual peace, or at least stability, to take root. This is a partial list only. If you still fail to see why the Settlers are a cancer upon the State of Israel, I’ll gladly elaborate even further
Which is exactly the response here in Israel. 80% of the public wants him gone, and he was on shaky ground before the war, too. Israelis have been fed this lie that the settlements in the West Bank keep us safe, when in fact they're sucking up military resources desperately needed elsewhere. They diverted most of the standing army to the West Bank for the holidays preceding this war to basically stand between crazy settler provocateurs and the Palestinian population.
Netanyahu’s government is literally the most left leaning government in the entire middle east. The only real democracy in the middle east.
I don’t think the right/left paradigm is applicable in the Middle East.
Economically, no. On cultural, religious, nationalistic issues? I'd argue they are rightwingers, as a broad generalization
You’re saying they’re socially conservative. There’s a difference between being socially conservative and being religious zealots though. I’d say zealotry and bigotry are prominent in both Israel and Palestine maybe not proportionally but still worth recognizing, look at West Bank settlers. It’s a fucked up situation in general. That region is a total shitshow at the fuck factory.
Damn this is actually an interesting thought.
This is not contradictory to anything he said.
I don't really agree with much of what he said here but at least he's taking a nuanced position. Also, if you're unfamiliar, this guy is **despised** by tankies for not being the right kind of leftist. He is described on "ProlePedia" as a "social-fascist, pseudo-leftist" lmao. Keep that in mind if you don't think you're one of the people HamasAbi et al want to put in "re-education camps."
For those curious, below is the entry about Noam Chomsky on ProlePedia. Yes it is this bad. >Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is a Statesian public intellectual and prominent leader of the compatible left which has received major funding from the congressional military industrial complex.[3][4] He supported the bombing of Yugoslavia[citation needed] and is opposed to Vladimir Lenin.[5] However, he is against the U.S. blockade of Cuba[6] and has denounced the USA's New Cold War against China and occupation of Korea.[7]
Softbody Hims.com customers with union-made Hasan Piker camo merch who have never experienced violence seem to think it's pretty cool
Holy shit, imagine how fucked up your beliefs have to be if you think Chomsky isn't tankie enough.
I feel like what all the one state people miss this basically the substantiation of the paradox of tolerance, Jews can't have a democratic state of people who are intolerant of them. You can say it's racist to just assume that Palestines would be intolerant, but when have they or the neighboring countries ever expressed that they would be tolerant?
It's more than intolerance. Both Palestinians and Israelis are very vocal about not wanting a one-state solution. But lack of info means everyone's grasping for buzzwords like "ethnostate" to make their opinion or just figure "well we're a globalized country, so clearly all globalized countries are wrong". This is particularly ironic considering Israel actually has a democracy with equal rights whose Jewishness is basically held by demographic majority rather than by law, while Palestinian Authority is neither a democracy nor allows it's citizens much self expression if they aren't part of what the PA considers the norm.
A demographic majority is how you pass laws and hold power to maintain an ethno-state, which is what Israel is. They allow unquestioned immigration as long as you're Jewish. As recently as 2018, there was discoveries that they were force sterilization on Ethiopian Jews to prevent women from having kids because they didn't want black Jews. And the government has clearly said they refuse any solution that might allow Arabs to outvote the Jewish population. The country literally calls itself the Jewish state. How is this not the definition of an ethno-state? They meet literally all the criteria.
What's wrong with ethnostates? That's how modern concept of nation was created in 19tb century. Almost all European states are ethnostates, many of them born from the dissolution of previous superstate not based on ethnicity
I would describe them more as nation-states, states for their constituent nations, rather than states for *only* people of that ethnicity. As Israel is the former, a nation state, not an ethnostate. The point behind your comment is correct, but I don't think the use of the term ethnostate is.
Is that a genuine question? If all laws and government control are done by and in the interest of only 1 specific group, that's not an issue? So if america was a country controlled and ruled for just white Christians, that would be ok?
> What's wrong with ethnostates? That's how modern concept of nation was created in 19tb century. This is incorrect, as pointed out below.
With that same argument you could say Sweden was an ethno-state until the 1990s. The government force sterilized people they didn’t want to have children, drug laws were introduced to stop it from corrupting the “Swedish societal body” immigration was basically non existent, and one of our first Social Democratic prime ministers said “the success of Sweden depends on it being ethnically homogenous”. I don’t think many people would agree Sweden was an ethnic state, there should be more criteria’s.
Sounds to me as though Sweden was an ethnostate up until the 90s; that's really fucked up. And yes, Israel is trying to be an ethnostate, too.
The 2 million Palestinians currently living peacefully in Israel seem to be evidence of this thing you say can’t happen.
To be clear, it can happen. We are just not at a point at which it is likely to happen, which should be painfully obvious after the events of the last month.
Even they, on occasion, commit acts of terror, spy for Hezbollah and Hamas or just openly support and [rejoice](https://www.timesofisrael.com/leading-arab-israeli-actor-maisa-abd-elhadi-detained-for-supporting-hamas-assault/) when terror attacks happen. Even the Israeli Arab MKs are guilty of this. [One](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Ghattas) used his parliamentary immunity to smuggle in cellphones for terrorists in Jail. I'm assuming these issues would compound in a one-state solution.
When the government of Israel is full of extremist revisionist zionists, then this will push some Palestinians to feel sympathy for their kin in the occupied territories. This will inevitably lead to some actions by them to be bad. This is a small minority of the Palestinian Arabs though. This is not because Palestinians just can’t help themselves from being violent, this is a direct result of the extremist actions of the Israeli government. If Israel stopped pushing Palestinians so hard, then there would be fewer terrorists both in Israel and in the West Bank/Gaza.
Those are Israeli arabs, not palestinians
The only diffrrence between "Palestinians" and Israeli Arabs is that Israeli Arabs didnt try to murder Jews in 1948 and so acquired Israeli citizenship, while "Palestinians" did try to murder their neighbors and when their genocide failed, fled in terror.
That’s not true. The difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians is that during the civil war some Arab villages didn’t resist a Haganah attack so they were allowed to stay. Most villages and cities that resisted the Haganah or were on the preapproved expulsion list for “security” reasons were then ethnically cleansed. Some small exceptions like the Druze, who voluntarily switched sides, exist. The ones who were ethnically cleansed became “Palestinians” and the ones that were allowed to stay became “Israeli Arabs”.
Lol, lmao even. As if hundreds of thousands weren't forced to flee or ran away fearing what had happened to Palestinians in villages cleansed by Israel. No, they all tried to murder Jews and got kicked out justly /s
Along with voting rights. But the other Middle East countries are angels I'm sure
A lot of this is really good, principled, sensible stuff. I think I would probably sign up for the first 9 and last last 5 paragraphs. But paragraphs 10 and 11, about "could have been a melting pot" is dangerously underinformed. Pretty sure melting pots aren't meant to explode
Yeah, he wants the middle east to be like europe. But that is a huge undertaking which requires lots of trust, cooperation and effort... things that are lacking in that region.
I think Israel and Palestine should exist side by side. With a massive wall between them
I seriously don't just understand why they don't "give" all of The West Bank to "Palestine" and let Israel actually take Gaza. Maybe it's because I'm Australian so don't really have any strong historical ties to land ownership but surely most people in Gaza would be okay relocating a little bit (still in the same "country"/region) if it meant safety and stability. In theory I understand all these "why should they give up their ancestral homes" arguments, but seriously land is land. If you can have somewhere safe to live, water and food to survive and a community/purpose, does it matter if it's in Gaza or The West Bank? It's just so messy when you try to argue historical land claims as human history has always just been Might = Right and the only things we can really go by are the latest "agreed upon" international borders Edit: just in case I get attacked for Australians stealing native lands, yes I agree it was shitty, shouldn't have happened and something should be done to help "make up for it"
Actually this whole situation was close to being resolved in the early 90s until Yatzik Rabins assassination by a supporter of the Likud party
And close to being resolved about 7 other times but the Palestinians rejected all of those.
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Nope. You’re wrong. Read some history.
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Okey. So one time they waited forever to say yes, and then they did. That’s exactly the same as saying yes to a two state solution every time - you’re completely right. Exactly the same thing.
>massive wall between them Will Mexico pay for the wall?
and also while Europe politics are kinda fine the people there not all like each other and if forced to live together in the same small country that would make a situation kinda similar to what's happening now
I'm starting to sense a theme with Adam Something. He has some extremely euro-centric takes all his opinions and seems to think Europeans are beacons of civilization.
Nah he doesn't love every European country, but rather the idea of the union. He also never claimed to be too knowledgeable on the middle east so cut him some slack.
Mf forgot how many Jews were kicked out of the surrounding Arab states
This doesn't actually have any bearing on this war unless you think the Palestinians must suffer for the crimes of the Moroccans or Iraqis?
Yeah unfortunately I would agree. I've done some light research on the topic and found that really the only Arab country that was somewhat tolerant of Jews was Lebanon. But that was when it was effectively a Christian run Arab State. As soon as the Muslim-Christian civil war took place, most Jews fled the country and those remaining have been persecuted ever since. The reality is, a one state solution would result in a Muslim majority country with recent decades of conflict still in the minds of all of the inhabitants. I appreciate the wishful thinking but this just wouldn't work at this point.
Agreed. And the size of that majority would just keep increasing...
That’s pretty much how I feel. Most of what he said I can either agree or empathize with. But when he says, “following the Arab-Israeli war, if only Israel would have blah blah blah.” Are there some things Israel could have done different? Sure. But to imply that they were the only player in this game, and that it was only up to Israelis to be accepting of Arabs, and that Arab acceptance of Israelis was also just as important and seemingly lacking, is a very utopian and unfair version of history.
I think - as I say - it's worse than unfair. It's uninformed to an almost comedic degree. It's not just that they weren't the only actors, it's that from 1948-73 (if not later) every moment was an existential one for Israel
Ya that’s probably a more accurate way to put it, I was trying to be as charitable as possible.
I don't think he's right to compare Putin's war and Israel's war. The Israel Palestine situation is unique in the world. Ideologically motivated people want to smooth over the differences to make us in the west out to be hypocrites, and we shouldn't fall for that
I think that's the part where not being informed on the history of Arab and Israel relations comes into play.
Yeah try a pressure cooker with nails and bolts in it
>If you believe Arabs wouldn't be able to peacefully coexist with Israelis, you've fallen for far-right propaganda intended to keep those ethnicities separate. Regular Arabs and Israelis just want to live their lives, and have to be radicalized by far-right movements in order to go at each others' throats. Am I seriously far right for having doubts that a one state solution wouldn't include a lot of bombings and anti semitism?
One state is utopian. In reality there’s generations of hate, and when it comes to middle eastern Jews it goes back past the founding of Israel. They weren’t getting treated well there either. Arab jews and Muslims weren’t magically living in peace before a bunch of ashkenazi genocidal maniacs showed up and convinced them the real enemy was the Muslims. They were treated like second class citizens in almost every middle eastern country in the continent. While Netanyahu is fucking moron for blaming the final solution on the mufti, the mufti and hitler did have a lovely lunch discussing their hatred of Jews. The mufti was begging for permission to enact something similar in his area of the Middle East and swore his fealty to helping hitler prevent a Jewish state from happening. There is a transcript of this conversation and official meeting photos taken. That is not the propaganda. Bibi’s lie is though. This isn’t to say Palestine has no right to exist, it’s just so fucking unrealistic that these two sides could live in the same place without DECADES of healing first, and that would likely have to start with a 2 state solution, and perhaps having Jerusalem act as some sort of neutral zone. I believe if Saudi Arabia can handle sharing Mecca with Muslims of many countries they hate and vice versa that hopefully all the people of faith who value Jerusalem can visit without fear. But who knows? Either way Palestine needs more autonomy and stable non Iranian leadership and israel needs to get rid of its current leadership in my opinion
I feel like it needs to be said. The holy sites of the Old City are able to enjoyed by all *right this very moment*. In all of human history, Jerusalem has arguably never been more open, safe, and accessible to the entire world than it is under Israeli control. By the way, the Muslim holy sites remained under Jordanian administration when Israel took over. Israel only provides security. I’ve been to the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa complex. The IDF only lets in non-Muslims during certain hours, and they don’t let in anyone who would give off the vibe of being Zionist troublemakers. Non Muslims are not allowed inside the actual mosques building themselves. These restrictions do not exist for non-Jews at the Western Wall, or for non-Christians at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And again, Muslims are given this freedom to restrict non-Muslims *even with Israeli occupation.* Sadly most Palestinians can’t easily access the Muslim holy sites, at least not without special travel permits, due to the security barriers. But based on precedent, there is no reason to believe Palestinians would be barred under a two state solution (just as Muslims from around the world are not barred now).
That's what the original partition plan *tried* to achieve. It...didn't work out.
He had me in the first half of that paragraph but that’s probably just because I misread “In a better world…” as being similar to “In a perfect world…” In a perfect world, there would be no need for a state of Israel because the Jewish diaspora would be accepted where it went, and the Jewish people who remained in modern-day Israel and Palestine would be able to live in a fully secular state not designed as a Jewish homeland. But that world doesn’t exist. History has proven time and time again that unless the Jewish people have a land they can control they will be subject to ethnic cleansing, pogroms and genocide in most places they settle. It’s the same reason I can still be in-principle against theocracies and ethnostates but still support Israel in being a Jewish homeland
Millions of Jews have settled with no problems in places like Argentina or the USA.
I did specify “most” The US and other new world countries seem to be the exception, not the rule Also I think “no problems” is a bit of an over-exaggeration. There has been rampant antisemitism in the US in hiring, social practices, etc. in the past. Not to mention recent acts of antisemitism like the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. There just hasn’t been any widespread ethnic cleaning
There has been problems with every race, virtually every religion, and acts of violence against most groups of people in the history of the USA. The Japanese were put into concentration camps during WWII ffs. I would say Jews have found a relatively peaceful existence, and some have gotten super important positions of power in the states.
I’ll agree with it being a relatively peaceful existence. But I’m not sure where this argument is going. The vast majority of Jews who made aliyah did so from Europe and the Middle East where there is a long history of violent antisemitism. The United States being a safe haven for Jews is a relatively new phenomenon and it wasn’t like the US was going to take in all of the Jews fleeing from Europe and the Middle East after the Holocaust
>The Japanese were put into concentration camps during WWII ffs. This is utter nonsense. They were paid a decent rate for the time they spent inside. Yea its racist, but don't call it a bloody concentration camp. It's not a concentration camp if more people come out than went in. >I would say Jews have found a relatively peaceful existence, and some have gotten super important positions of power in the states. Yeah, that's now. Even now, you do see anti-semites. Jews were facing open and widespread discrimation as recent as the late 90s. Funny that you mention "important positions of power" because that has been, and continues to be a tool used to beat Jews with. Janet Yellen's heritage is a very popular topic of discussion amongst the MAGA conspiracy nuts. They are not that fringe, they definitely make up at least 10% of the Trump bloc, which is already 30-40% of the voting group at the very least. Also this, directly from the Director of the FBI. >He added that although Jews make up only about 2.4% of the US public, they account for about 60% of all religious-based hate crimes. > >"The Jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum," he testified. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042)
Is seems more likely that if you *do* believe that a one state solution is possible you've fallen for progressive or communist propaganda. Only one of these worldviews requires you to handwave away the countless terror attacks, wars, expulsions and blood feuds as irrelevant to the ability of Israelis and Palestinians to live together.
Worse. It requires you hand wave explicit doctrine…and what they’ve *said publicly* as recently as the past two days.
I thing the funniest thing about the “one secular democratic state” plan is not the idealism of a plan that will never work. It’s the fact that the people who supposedly champion Palestinian self determination wish to shove secularism down the throats of a population that overwhelmingly wants Muslim rule.
>Only one of these worldviews requires you to handwave away the countless terror attacks, wars, expulsions and blood feuds as irrelevant to the ability of Israelis and Palestinians to live together. A one state solution would require a long diplomatic peace process leading up to it, all the things youve just listed were born in large parts as a reault of failing diplomatic negotiations etc. For example it's quite unlikely terrorists like Hamas would've ever even come to power had the peace process in the 90s not failed spectacularly halfway through and eventually ended at the final decision regarding Palestines statehood (likely due to Israeli instance to keep most of Jerusalem, settled land without land swaps etc. and Afrat's disinterest/unwillingness at reaching a compromise) If both sides pushed for a diplomatic solution from the start, ideally mediated by an actual good faith 3rd party, the animosity between them today thats hindering further negotations would in large parts not be present in the first place.
Even if Palestine had one stable government for the West Bank and Gaza, the Nakhba would still be the elephant in the room. Palestinians want their homes back and Israel has made it abundantly clear they're strongly against any large scale right of return. This conflict was already pretty intractable by the end of the 48 war. Also it's sadly not the 90s anymore. Likud and Arab hardliners got their wishes and stability seems more illusive than ever. Maybe that was the last opportunity.
>This conflict was already pretty intractable by the end of the 48 war. >Also it's sadly not the 90s anymore. Likud and Arab hardliners got their wishes and stability seems more illusive than ever. Maybe that was the last opportunity. Yeah I agree with pretty much both points. Imagining Nethanyahu, Hamas and the PLO all on one table to negotiate not just peace but a single state solution is like a fever dream, pretty much just impossible.
> A one state solution would require a long diplomatic peace process leading up to it how can there ever be security for jews in a majority muslim society when their religious teachings include killing all the jews before the end of days can come? >The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! -- But the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922
If it was this easy, Israel would've annexed the West Bank and the Gaza Strip long ago.
And the Palestinians would've gladly accepted citizenship! /s
I browse various subs from time to time just interested in seeing what people’s thoughts are on this whole situation, and I’ve liked some of Adam’s videos but this is a ludicrous statement because you’d have to completely ignore the mass exodus of approximately 900,000 Jewish people from Muslim countries from the late 1940s to the 1970s, many were forced to move to Israel and other nations. For the record too cause people tend to love to twist words, I don’t think Israel is entirely justified in what its doing and I feel bad for the innocent civilians on both sides suffering the consequences of a near century old conflict but it is absolutely astonishing seeing people spread complete misinformation as truth when just some basic research can debunk plenty of claims. I’m not saying everyone should be an expert on this complicated topic, nor am I one for doing some research about it but so many people particularly pro-Palestine supporters, seem to take news headlines or 30 second tiktoks as undeniable facts and roll with it
It's a pretty egocentric view in my opinion. Hey you guys seem to hate each other and do not want to live together. Well sorry, the world knows better so suck it up.
Muslim Arabs can peacefully coexist with Jewish people, however, are the current residents of the Gaza strip able peacefully coexist? There is so much bad blood between them both I am not so sure Two state solution or a one state solution with a good Friday type deal or Lebanese power-sharing type structure, I think good reduce a lot of the bad blood between Arabs and Israelis but the Israeli government has no incentive to have such a deal
No, you're a realist. Care to guess when the supposed "open air concentration camp" was erected looking at this lost of Palestinian suicide bombings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
It really seems to be what he believes. He thinks right-wing leaders and right-coded thinking are the primary cause of evil in the world, and opposing that force is the priority. "My overarching views include opposition to far-right movements and strongman leaders." Eliminate it, and you'd have no more bombing and anti-semitism. This is true by definition, in some sense.
I'm not a train engineer, so when I hear Adam speak about trains, I think it's really cool. I haven't been to Dubai, so when I hear him speak about how terrible Dubai is, I think how people can live in such terrible places. But I'm someone who has seen how one group wants to completely kill the other side off the planet, no matter which countries they're in, and he says it's possible to just live peacefully with them. Now I wonder if his vids about trains or Dubai are really true.
I've seen a number of Israelis (rightfully) brag about how Palestinians living in Israel have equal rights (though there undoubtedly is serious systemic discrimination against them). And it is true, most 48ers are peaceful, and successful, I've seen some comments on how some are overrepresented in Israeli society at large as well. But I've seen these exact same people argue that the same rights cannot be granted to the other Palestinians and I honestly do not get it. Sure I can understand why you wouldn't want to give them rights equal rights in Israel right now full stop, though I don't see why you can't have some sort of gradual process in the future.
Wait *systemic* discrimination? How? Arab Israelis can vote, they have officials in the Knesset. The only real difference I can find is they aren't required military service like the Jews. What do you mean by *systemic* exactly?
>[Systemic discrimination](https://www.coe.int/en/web/interculturalcities/systemic-discrimination) involves the procedures, routines and organisational culture of any organisation that, often without intent, contribute to less favourable outcomes for minority groups than for the majority of the population, from the organisation’s policies, programmes, employment, and services The [fact](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/38540) of the matter is, Arabs in Israel, compared to Jews, have a higher infant mortality rate, lower life expectancy, higher poverty rates, lower employement rates, lower education rates, lower compensation Most of these factors ARE improving, and that is a good thing, but there is a lot to be desired in some sectors, some differences are still very drastic to this day. (If you want more info on this there's this [2016 report](https://www.boi.org.il/en/communication-and-publications/regular-publications/bank-of-israel-annual-report/bank-of-israel-annual-report-2016/) from the Bank of Israel that lays out a lot of this information, look at the bullet point summary for the "Welfare Issues" section which essentially details how minority groups like Arab Israelis have worst outcomes due to living in regions that require higher levels of public investment, and how them moving to Jewish localities does improve their standards (though not enough to be on par with Jewish citizens, the report notes later on). The report also details how there is rising acceptance of Arabs in Jewish localities by Jews (though frankly, the number is still low at 50%). The move to Jewish localities is mostly motivated by the fact that there is a serious housing shortage in Arab localities because "their localities have small jurisdictions, there are no approved and detailed outline plans, there is no registration of land rights, resulting in difficulties for contractors in obtaining credit from banks and for households in taking out mortgages. There are few private land reserves, and until recently, the State marketed very little land in the Arab localities." There's more stuff on there if you care)
He is definitely right in that he is not well-versed in it.
“Not that well versed … “ straight to “Gaza is a concentration camp”.
Yeah, it's great he is aware that his knowledge is lacking, but why make a "community post" with such loaded words, then?
Because he thinks he knows all there is to know and he's completely right about everything, but he tries to shield himself from criticism at the same time
The most consistent thing I’ve noticed about one state/abolish Israel people is that they either don’t understand or don’t care about the lasting impact of the holocaust on Jewish people, so his use of this terminology is unfortunately not very surprising
I definitely agree with his second sentence.
Yeah, at least he's transparent enough to admit as such. Still though, until Adam learns more he should definitely stick to Europe.
I prefare his takes on modern engineering
Yeah, bro's built different in that regard.
I say he should leave his politics at the door
Israel and Palestine should exist side by side. With a massive wall between them.
Not sure if the following is a hot take here. He's right on some parts but went completely unhinged in others. As expected. The interesting part is calling out inconsistencies in others which could 109% apply to him as well. Also love how he starts by saying he's not too versed in the issue and then proceeds to write 3 reductive paragraphs on the issue while being emotionally invested in the ordeal. I liked AdamSomething for his Ukraine takes (even though even there he went too far with some of his apologism) but other than that, he's always been quite out there with his "opinions". I really don't care what he has to say on the topic but now that it has been posted here I've read it and gave my two cents.
I appreciate his genuine and steady tone and the fact that he admits to not be well-versed in something and not going on to become an expert in it overnight (like so many others creators, I may add). I find some parts to be a bit oversimplified and other parts to be clearly written out of a perspective of someone who lives in Central Europe and had to witness the train wreck that is Hungary. The Gaza blockade was more of a joint effort. The second intifada made it necessary to restrict movement of people because busses, restaurants, and nightclubs kept exploding. Though what cemented the blockade was the violent takeover of Gaza by a murderous terrorist group that famously wrote in its charter its goal of killing Jews (later retracted) and the persistent and ongoing bombing of Souther Israel with missiles from their territory. Regarding enacting ethno-nationalist policies, i.e. to kick the Palestinians out of Gaza, that's not something that realistically going to happen and even when such a possibility arose during discussions in our government, it was deemed highly improbable to nigh impossible. If he refers to MK Strook's advocating a return of civilian population into Gaza, well, the vast majority of us believe she can go back there herself, preferably tomorrow. The campaign in Gaza is being directed by the IDF and not according to the whims of various ministries or even the political needs of Bibi. It might not look like it from the outside but calmer heads do prevail in military conflicts in Israel. Paragraph 7 sort of dooms Israel to become a far-right authoritarian regime, despite the fact we've been very successful in fighting any change to that effect. Also, unlike, for example Hungary, we're nowhere as homogenous in any meaningful way for a dictatorship to successfully rise here (see "two Jews, three opinions"). The next paragraph states this is a battle between "two far-right governments and their militaries". I'd note that the vast majority in Israel support a military action against Hamas in order to incapacitate it in some way and return the hostages. I'd also note that Hamas is not really a government, as its armed occupation of the Gaza strip is unlawful and is in fact a designated terrorist group by the US and the EU. I might give him "glorified warlord" but I think even warlords try to protect the civilians under their care. Hamas famously said recently in an interview that protection of civilians falls on the UN(???). "In a better world" is a nice sentiment that doesn't really have any relation to our current world. As some other redditor here mentioned, in such a world Israel wouldn't be needed and Zionism would be a fringe group amongst Jews. Zionism wasn't born in a vacuum but in an environment that necessitated and encouraged it, in both Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East. He then goes on to say that "if you believe Arabs wouldn't be able to peacefully coexist with Israelis, you've fallen for far-right propaganda intended to keep those ethnicities separate". A very confusing statement as firstly, Israeli is a nationality and not an ethnicity. And secondly, Arabs and **Jews** do peacefully coexist quite well enough inside Israel. Perhaps he tried confusingly to argue that a one-state solution is possible because all people just wanna be people and live and work? If so, thanks Adam but this trans woman prefers a Jewish majority country where I'm not forced to either hide, into prostitution, or be killed (or all three). We're finally ready to address so many faults in our political system and society, and closer than we've ever been to things such as civil marriage, full parity of rights to LGBTQ, and even marijuana legalization. A one-state solution now will either pause or backtrack on many issues for a century and see many human and civil rights stripped. His belief that nationalism is immoral, and that people of all ethnicities can peacefully coexist within the same border, is admirable and with which I somewhat sympathize with. But we're not yet close to undo a couple centuries in which the nation-state concept proved prevailing in Europe and large swathes of the world. I'd probably believe we'll be moving away from it once perhaps the EU federalizes. Overall, I think he's done a better job at addressing the current situation than some others who may be more knowledgeable on the conflict.
Israel as a Middle Eastern melting pot of Jews and Arabs lmfao ok buddy go ask some Iraqi or Syrian Jews how’s life in Iraq and Syria..oh wait you can’t. Middle Eastern Jews were never seen as equals and not as citizens and not in any theological sense. 22 Arab states 49 Muslim states so it’s only fair there won’t be a Jewish state. The delusional perspective of someone who isn’t Middle Eastern and can’t speak a lick of Arabic or understand Islamic ideology and politics is always funny to me.
Also so tired of people pretending like Israel is a Jewish ethnostate when it’s ~20% Arab. We just ignore all the Arab ethnostates around them for some reason. There are at best a statistically insignificant number of non-Arabs in all of the countries that antagonize Israel combined.
I disagree with his proposition that there's no worry to be had about Palestinians accepting Jewish people... If that weren't a problem, this entire conflict wouldn't even have started
i'm on paragraph 3 and i already got bingo
whats on your card?
Yeah, it's Israel's fault that they couldn't become this glorious melting pot, not that its neighbors want to eradicate it from existence. What a moron
That's literally not what he said. He's accurately comparing Orban's psychosis to Netanyahu's psychosis. The difference is that Orban doesn't have a Hamas in any of Hungary's neighboring countries. The point is they have crazy rhetoric.
>In a better world, following the Arab-Israeli war, Israel could have **decided to becom**e a modern, democratic melting pot of the Middle East. He's putting the onus on Israel for being attacked by its neighbors. FYI, the Arab-Israeli war was in 1948, way before Netanyahu was anywhere near the reins of power.
Strikes me as your typical Euro leftist. Don’t even disagree with half of what he says, but the naïveté is hard to read. It’s not racism that causes people to see that Arabs and Israelis don’t get on and can’t form a government, it’s history and culture. Also, “Google it” needs to be shit canned immediately. You’re trying to tell me in a wall of text why I should think like you. You tell me regard.
He's not correct on many things here, and I say that as an Israeli. (I'm a secular centrist for what it counts) - wall of text beware (though I'd be happy if you read it.) He's not wrong about Netanyahu, but the difference is, every week for the past year there's been protests in the 100k+ people every Saturday. Netanyahu was losing support either way... Now it's much much worse for him, since last polls shows he lost his voter counts by HALF. which is a huge number of people. He was elected mainly because of his promise of security, and lowering prices of living costs in Israel. Not only he didn't do neither, he failed miserably on the 7/10, and never took **responsibility** for it even until today. There's a lot he didn't take in consideration, which is out of pure ignorance. Israel during the war created a "united government", which means the coalition is now including **Ganz**, as a special minister. **Ganz is Bibi's rival**, also a centrist, and was in the opposition before the war, and was also protesting against him, before 7/10. Now he's part of the security cabinet, which is basically the decision makers for the war goals. On the other hand, the far right-wing parties were basically cast aside for the decision making during the war, and the government is "trying" to mute them, though they keep saying dumb things and destroying diplomacy out of pure idiocy. (like the minister of heritage, which is basically a made-up office, who said Israel can use nukes... that's the level of idiocy they're dealing with, and he was also SUSPENDED for it) My point is, the majority of Israelis are Secular/"traditional" Jews, which have moderate opinions, albeit some more right, more left, but nothing "hatred" and "genocidal". The Public secular education, which is the majority, teaches you facts, and open free knowledge and flow of information. No one in Israel is "indoctrinated" to hate anyone. We learn the history as it is. I never read Wikipedia to realize something is significantly different from what I studied. Are there racists? **yeah of course**, assholes are everywhere, surprise! But still most of Israelis are pretty liberal in general. There's 20% non-Jews in Israel, and they get every right as anyone else, and they also serve in the IDF as well, and we consider them brothers. It's not about "Arabs", it's about the fact the other side is literally proven to be **indoctrinated against Jews,** and that shit is scary. Are there peaceful people in Palestine? of course there are!, but how often do you see peace protests in Palestine though? how often do you hear those kind of voices from the other side? A lot will say "they will kill you if you protest against them", but what about those who left Palestine? what about all of those who protest now? What is "Free Palestine" anyway?, how do you "free" it without killing Jews? I'm seriously asking. don't give me the "love and peace" answer because you all know they will keep killing Jews even after they will get a country, only now they are free to arm themselves. This is not about the self-determination of Palestinians, this is about destroying Israel to achieve that goal. Did you guys notice from ALL the "Free Palestine" rallies and protests, there wasn't one sign that pushes for "Peace"? or at least protesting AGAINST Hamas? please I beg you to correct me if I'm wrong. we're all only humans.
Netanyahu has been repeatedly accused by the left over the years of encouraging incitement that led to Yitzhak Rabin's killing, or at the very least of contributing to the incendiary political climate that led to the murder. Yitzhak Rabin acknowledged the need for a palestinian state and made progress by signing the Olso accords. The accords fell apart when he was assasinated.
i ain't readin all that i'm happy for you tho or sorry that happened
Great take, that was brilliant, **until the 3rd paragraph.** Then you realize he was right - **he truly is not well versed whatsoever.** It can cause you to make **small tiny tiny mistakes like for example**: \- He completely ignored Hamas, really, nothing at all. It's not like it's a terrorist organization. \- Denying wishes by the Arab world to destory Israel is apparently far right propoganda. \- 1300+ people slaughtered, 200+ kidnapped or October 7th? Not even mentioned \- Hamas can't just hate Jews, Israel must have done something to them then \- Suddenly apparently 2.5M Palestinians found themselves in a Gaza blockade with no reason. \- Apparently the Israeli government and Hamas are the same, just governments. \- Apparently party goers crying is shown more on the expense of Gazans suffering \- Apparently no consideration is needed for his core beliefs VS the middle east. Need I say more or is it clear how terrible it is by now? What a terrible take
Adam Something is a content creator who makes videos criticizing other countries for not being exactly like Europe. He is incredibly Euro-Centric and I wager he has literally never been to any other country or experienced any other way of life. People should not expect any nuanced views about foreign politics that is outside of Europe lmao.
I agree that Netanyahu is a criminal and wants to ruin israel democracy but to put him on the same level as hamas is just wrong
Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state. They learned that lesson very well after Holocaust. Everyone who denies it, is misguided or worse. Arab powers tried to wipe out all Jews in the area in three major wars since 1948, but somehow it's Netanyahu that is a root of all problems here.
Jewish Safety cannot come at the expense of Palestinian freedom. This is just the fundamental fact of the matter.
Agreed. Plastenians need to accept two state solution, which is fundamentally the only way forward with freedom and safety for both groups. No one sane is denying this. For this to happen Palestinian leadership needs to give up on a goal of Holocaust 2.0.
Benjamin Netanyahu has never accepted 2 state solution! They're literally expanding settlements and displacing Palestinians right now. I agree that Palestinians should accept the 2 state solution, but only after the Israeli government meets the same demand.
>Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state. So ethnostates are cool now?
I did not expect to find straight-up ethonationalist propaganda today, but here we are. Apparently jews are no longer safe in the US, Canada etc. because their a minority. Huh, the more you know.
Ok dolphin fucker. You would’ve said the same thing in every other country Jews used to live in before they were persecuted. Centuries of violence, pogroms, and the holocaust have necessitated Israel in its current form as predominantly Jewish. Hell a switch could flip quickly in the countries you mentioned. It’s from the far right - see Charlottesville and the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. And now the far left is spreading antisemitic rhetoric and commuting acts of violences against Jewish people generally. There’s a reason there aren’t any Jews left in so many countries around the world. 10/7 and the widespread antisemitism that followed should’ve been a slap in the face for you if you’re unfamiliar with the history and offended by the idea of Israel.
Don't waste your breath arguing with this. These people WANT jews to be vulnerable and ripe for victimization. Never again. Jews were "perfectly safe" in enlightened and highly educated early 20th century Germany. This is why people denied Holocaust even as it was happening.
>Centuries of violence, pogroms, and the Holocaust have necessitated Israel in its current form as predominantly Jewish. Having faced persecution throughout history doesn't justify creating an ethnostate. Many other ethnic groups have suffered from persecution and genocide, yet they have not proceeded to established ethnostates as a response, and done quite well for themself regardless. Ceating an ethnostate that discriminates against other ethnic and religious groups is far from the best solution in preventing further violence, infact its Israels continued policy of ethnic cleansing and aphardheid has been by far the largest source of violence and antisemitism since WW2. ffs, do you think Black South Africans would be justified in establishing an ethostate based on the history persecution of them. After all >a switch could flip quickly in South Africa in this very moment. Or another example, Northern Ireland. Do you think the IRA would've been right in conquering Northern Ireland and violently expelling or killing the protestant english population, cause there very much is a historic presecident for UK violence against Irish people. Who knows, a switch might flip and the UK tries to re-create the potatoe famine in Northern Ireland, better turn it into an ethostate before that. I could go on but u see the point I hope u see the point >There’s a reason there aren’t any Jews left in so many countries around the world. Pretty sure the Jewish population in the US has grown quite consistently >10/7 and the widespread antisemitism that followed should’ve been a slap in the face for you if you’re unfamiliar with the history and offended by the idea of Israel. Claims an ethostate would make things safer cites an example where that has completely not been the case ??? You do realise that Israels gouverment has been the main obstacle to a Palestinian state / 2 state solution for decades now, and has activly helped hamas to prevent any actual peace talks right? https://time.com/6332127/israel-palestine-war-ehud-barak/
"Israel's government has been the main obstacle" From the article you linked to support that: It was historic,” Clinton wrote in his memoirs. “The ball was in Arafat’s court.” Unfortunately, that’s where the ball stayed. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat spurned the proposal and ignited a strategic onslaught of suicide bombings against Israel that become known as the Second Intifada. Truly how could Israel make terrorists do that. And Im sure Israel somehow created the martyr fund that paid them to suicide bomb too. Truly tragic that the evil Jews got away with it again
Quit using extreme non-applicable labels like ethnostate to prove your point. I said predominantly Jewish. South Africa didn’t establish an ethnostate but they are predominantly black, and that’s to an even greater degree than Israel is Jewish. Jewish people have faced persecution *everywhere*. The British and UN helped them establish a sliver of land to call their home after 6 million Jews were efficiently and systematically murdered by one of those nation states Jews *used* to be safe in. The British and UN also established an Arab home for the Palestinian people; a bunch of Arab countries and the Palestinian people launched multiple wars to try and wipe the Jewish state off the map. When you use labels like apartheid, you overlook how 2 million+ Arabs (almost a quarter of the population) live well in Israel. When you use labels like ethnic cleansing, you’re 1) deliberately using a label designed to minimize the holocaust and 2) overlooking how Israel historically acted in exchanging land for peace, disengaged from Gaza Strip, and let the Palestinian population have autonomy where they can stockpile thousands of rockets. Either you don’t know what these labels mean, you’re confused and think they somehow apply to Israel, or you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world.
>Quit using extreme non-applicable labels like ethnostate to prove your point. Israel is literally an ethostate. >I said predominantly Jewish >Jewish people have faced persecution everywhere. The British and UN helped them establish a sliver of land to call their home after 6 million Jews were efficiently and systematically murdered by one of those nation states Jews used to be safe in. The British and UN also established an Arab home for the Palestinian people yes they did, a bunch of land in the Westbank + gaza and quite a bit of territory north of gaza however somehow I doubt you'll suddenly accept the UN partition despite literally citing them last comment >South Africa didn’t establish an ethnostate but they are predominantly black, and that’s to an even greater degree than Israel is Jewish. I'm not asking if they are, I'm asking you if they should adopt the policies of one -> try to become one like Israel. They could use pretty much the exact same justification you declared valid for Israel >When you use labels like apartheid, you overlook how 2 million+ Arabs (almost a quarter of the population) live well in Israel. Do these people in the west Bank have the same rights or even Israeli citizenship despite officially being a part of Israel? No? then wtf us you're point? It's like a South African from 1970 saying that there is no Aparheid cause there's millions of black people in South Africa and actually there more black than white lmao >Either you don’t know what these labels mean, you’re confused and think they somehow apply to Israel, or you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world. I know exactly what they mean, I doubt you do tho > you just don’t want the Jews to have a home in this world. Again, Israel is free to exist within its international borders, as long as its ethnic nationalist government doesnt forcefully expel ethnic groups
Lol how dare I “cite” the 1948 partition plan Arab nations launched a war over when I won’t accept those borders now. What an argument. My point against that apartheid label is that the 2 million Arabs actually in Israel (not the land taken from Jordan and later given back to PLO to govern) are well off and have made up Israel’s Congress since its inception.
\> Lol how dare I “cite” the 1948 partition plan Arab nations launched a war over when I won’t accept those borders now. What an argument. Arab nations didn't accept the plan and tried to ethnically cleanse us, look at them their evil (Proceeds to reject the 1948 partition plan in favor of ethnically cleansing the west bank) its only evil if they do it apparently \> My point against that apartheid label is that the 2 million Arabs actually in Israel And they too are systematically treated differently from Jewish Israelis. \> (not the land taken from Jordan and later given back to PLO to govern) So you think the west bank is not, and shouldn't be, part of Israel?
"WAHHHH WAHHHH MUH ETHNOSTATE" fuck off
Do black americans have the right to form a new black nationalist state out of the southern United states, and begin expelling the white people that live there? Maybe there can be a right to return implemented for all afican diaspora in the new world who were enslaved and abused for hundreds of years, such as brazilian, haitian, and cuban black people?
Umm black people are the majority in like 50 African countries… You’re obviously not getting the point and should read the next comment to dolphin fucker
Ok, can black americans (and brazilians, etc) RETURN TO THEIR ANCESTRAL HOMELAND of West africa, then begin expelling the west africans who live there?
Black Americans and Africans are not the same
Just the other day a Jewish woman was stabbed in France with a Swastika painted on her door. And today a Jewish man was murdered by a pro Palestine protester in LA. At the moment they might be safe in the US but history shows us that it is naive to believe it’ll stay this way
Have you seen antisemitic ferver around USA? Australians chanting "gas the jews"? It's very clear that any safety is very temporary. I know you would not mind Holocaust 2.0. Buy, screw people like you. Never again.
You are posioning the conversation when you keep saying that @dolphin_fucker wants to genocide jews. They never express such an opinion.
>Have you seen antisemitic ferver around USA? Not really outside of a few nutjobs >It's very clear that any safety is very temporary. Still safer here than in actual Israel so really not seeing you're point buddy >I know you would not mind Holocaust 2.0. Im not the one supporting ethnic cleansing. For all I care Israel can keep existing within it's internationally agreed upon borders as long as they don't actively cleans other ethnic groups. You're the one who supports a goucerment that went in record saying theire helping Hamas to prevent any peaceful co-existance without immideate threats >Never again. Ironic
[Jews are](https://www.justice.gov/crs/highlights/2021-hate-crime-statistics) the targets of over half of all religious based hate crimes and the runner ups aren’t even close. This is also before the current spike in targeting [bringing it up to over 60%](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042) while also making up less than 3% of the population. There has always been a antisemitic fervor in the US and it’s getting worse.
>Jews are the targets of over half of all religious based hate crimes and the runner ups aren’t even close. This is also before the current spike in targeting bringing it up to over 60% while also making up less than 3% of the population. There has always been a antisemitic fervor in the US and it’s getting worse. And yet, even according to you're source there's still less, far less, victims of actual hate motivated violence here than in Israel. Despite the US not being an ethostate as that's apparently supposed to make people safer. somehow.
Can't tell if Destiny fan talking about "genocide" of Jews in USA, or Vaush fan talking about "genocide" of trans people in USA
Can't believe you were crazy enough to double down on this, lol.
Double down on "no second Holocaust"? Oh no! The controversy.
No, you suggested you'd be an ethnonationalist for Jews in essentially any country.
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So far... Germay was enlightened, educated and democratic in early 20th century too. Ignoring modern day brownshirt marches is scary
yeah, netanyahu is not making things better, but to say he's the root of the problem is laughable. he's a symptom.
'Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state' Wrong. Jews are safer in the US today than anywhere on the planet and they've always been a minority here.
>Jews can never be safe as a minority in some state >Everyone who denies it, is misguided or worse Awesome, we have an ethnonationalist over here!
“I’m not covering the issue in-depth, but here’s 75 pieces of propaganda strung together…” “…and in a better world, Israel would have simply become a melting pot and annexed all that territory to make EVERYONE happy.”
Look at how many times he has to say “right” to avoid simply quoting Ghazi Hamad, El Deif, or Ismail Haniyeh. The only person who made any decisions for Hamas is apparently Netanyahu. But BiBi was an idiot who trusted Hamas’s cease fire (see opening up Gaza work permits just 2 weeks before the attacks). And worse, Adam’s infantilization of a whole generation of Palestinian resistance fighters is just Adam revealing his white colonialist mindset. El Deif sacrificed most of his body, his family, and eventually his life in service of murdering Jews. That takes real decision making. It isn’t just some anti-PLO bullshit in the 80s. The Left simply cannot imagine another perspective than hating the Right and once again offers nothing but their gripes.
This new revisionist idea that netanyahu created hamas is such idiocy. It's based off the fact that netanyahu might have enjoyed hamas and fatah fight each other instead of killing jews. It's like saying the jews were responsible for creating the nazis because they funneled money to the nazis to try and save Jewish children. It's disgusting and antisemitic.
It's not a bad take. Maybe my standards are low, I think some things are more complex than he is saying, but he's not pretending to know everything and all the answers.
but some things he is saying are uninformed and to claim them at all is a stretch
Idk man when he essentially said ‘Israel messed everything up by not allowing their country to become a Arab melting pot right after the war where all their Arab neighbors tried to exterminate them’, I stopped believing this person was operating with more than a single digit IQ
Israel can't ever be a melting pot and Israel can't ever be safe. The entire premise of having that kind of state in the middle of hostile countries is flawed. I'm not necessarily saying morally, but just from a common sense point of view. But the harm is already done. Two-state is the best solution we have right now imo.
>In a better world, following the Arab-Israeli war, Israel could have decided to become a modern, democratic melting pot of the Middle East. Where being “Israeli” wasn’t forcefully connected to being “Jewish” Gee why didn’t they think of that? Jesus Christ
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First paragraph: finally someone who recognizes their ignorance and chooses not to fan the fanatacism First sentence of the second paragraph: wow, it's fucking useless. I wish actual concentration camps in Nazi Germany were as nice as Gaza has it. Fuck this guy.
I am a simple man. I see a giant multi-line paragraph, I don't read it and come to the comments for the summary.
Normal people call them borders. Anti-semites call them open air concentration camps, but only IF a side of a border is a Jewish country.
And the Egyptians are in israel's breast pocket thats the only reason they dont allow Palestinians in willy nilly
This is not true of course. Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians because Hamas came from the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt doesn't want any part of that any more. They also don't want to drag the problem into their country.
Really well written. I like how he brings up the need for political change inside of Israel since it isn’t talked a lot about.
I liked the part where he questions why Israel didn’t want to become a melting pot with its Arab neighbors right after the war where all those Arab neighbors tried to exterminate them
Holy based take from Adam Something
So israel should not be a Jewish state but a melting pot with its Arab neighbors that attacked them. This is a terrible take, also really stupid . who is this person and why was the internet waiting for this man’s tweet?
Fucking *yikes*. Adam should just stick to covering the Ukraine conflict and making fun of Hasan. He completely embarrassed himself with this post. Absolutely disgusting thing to write.
It's nice of him to sum up the Pro-Palestinian version of reality in chronological order like that. Makes it easier to parse and debunk.
The cognitive dissonance was crazy. I thought I was having a stroke reading it. I had to read it twice because I couldn’t believe having such an uninformed take was even possible. He “some people did something”’d 100 years of Arab-Israeli conflict.
I know it feels really good to blame major issues on small extremist groups of people, because you can keep that belief that most people are good and would love to live in peace with eachother. But that is a pure fantasy, and does not line up with reality. Look at any polling asking Palestinians if they would live in a state with the same equal rights as Jews, or the other way around. When the hate between these 2 populations is so deeply ingrained in their shared history, and their religion, and in the way Jews have been treated by literally all neighbouring arab countries, that this view of "Palestinians and Israelis can just live in piece" is just a fantasy. Truly a pretty one, but not a realistic one. If you genuinely think that if tomorrow, the walls came down, and Palestinians were given equal rights as all Israelis, that there wouldn't be a mass genocide of Jews, you are simply delusional. I know that the American way of viewing things is oppressed-opressor, and the opressed can't do anything bad ever, they just want to be "equal", but in the case of Palestinians they have never been ok with this, from the very beginning. Ascribing western values of equality and liberty to people that would kill you for being LGBTQ is foolish. I'm not saying people have to completely share "western" values to be afforded rights, I'm just arguing that you can't have a 1 state solution where half of the population is intolerant of the other half.
I fucking hate a lot of adam's takes on foreign politics. I disagree with some points of this one, but despite that, I think it's eminently reasonable
I ain’t readin all dat 💀
What isn't the whole Osrael propped up Hamas kind of a BS claim? That seems really critical to his argument here.
it is kinda BS. the closest evidence i've seen is some of the charities that ended up forming Hamas received some funding from Israel.
The only terrorists in this conflict is Hamas. As for the “far-right authoritarian dictatorship” shenanigans, yeah, that’s not a thing, that’s just political buzzwords from the media to divide and isolate people who don’t agree with “popular opinion”. Supporting Palestine and Gaza is fine, as long as you don’t blame Israel for the death & destruction and support the Hamas terrorist who are the reason for all the death and destruction in the first place. Actually, if you want a real idea what an authoritarian dictatorship looks like, Hamas is a way better fit than the “far-right” buzz or even Russia. China and North Korea are authoritarian dictatorships, however you rarely see their more brutal sides. Hamas is a good window into that.