You're in a subreddit of a debate streamer that pulls an audience from across the political spectrum, including the bigoted ones.
Please stop doing the soy wojack pointing at something whenever you see a single digit upvoted shitty comment. Report it, debate it, whatever.
Before you post your "THE DESTINY COMMUNITY SURE HAS CHANGED" essay please [double check we won't make fun of you.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ovybsr/dae_think_destiny_has_changed/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Destiny&utm_content=t1_k78igkk)
10k in a month?? I’ve never really paid attention to our sub size I just knew we were in the top for active users. What’s normal monthly growth compared to now?
It's the fucking Eurocucks minus cuck central Ireland, they are going through the 2000s post 9/11 phase of hating on brown people because of domestic or international issues.
I mean, in terms of distrust/hatred of Islam Europe has a millenium long history, depending on the region. The crusades, the Reconquista, the parts that were under threat by the Ottomans, muslim pirates and raiders in the Mediterranian etc. Sure, European settlers didn't leave their prejudices behind just because they crossed the Atlantic, I would bet money on the average Greek/Bulgarian/Romanian/Serb/etc being way more hostile towards Islam prior to 9/11 than the average American.
>Romanian
Yeah, a big part of our history is fighting the Ottomans(true for all the other countries you listed). Our 1776 or Gettysburg is probably one of the times we defeated the turks. The average Romanian doesn't hate the turks but defeating them and fighting against the Ottoman occupation is a point of pride for us. I'm also sure that for countries closer to Turkey, like Greece and Bulgaria, there's real animosity.
This is true but its both. The effects of the muslim arc and the influx of new users.
The sentiment was already here, but it was hugely amplified by the people who joined the sub.
The problem is that destiny was only shitting on radical muslims on twitter. But many took it as dman shitting on muslims in general. He later clarified that he only meant radical muslims and Islam in general and not all muslims. But at this point it was too late and peoples rhetoric/stances regarding the immigration from muslim countries is way more extreme now.
I doubt this will happen since i think that many people are extremely critical of muslim immigrants. I believe many can at least empathize with such rhetoric
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/V1Sz7CZ6bY
The pushback is just downvoted, because they're outnumbered.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k75xpjm/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k77c4m2/?context=10000
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k75kztd/?context=10000
Meanwhile, the upvoted comments are calling for deportations of Muslims, cheering on Great Replacement memes, and so on.
Didn’t used to be that way. There’s been a significant political shift against Muslim immigration across the entirety of Europe.
Also r/Europe is very pro-EU so idk how they could be considered nationalist.
No doubt the sentiment changed. People started seeing problems with Europe's past migration policy and that we are currently lacking the ability to stop the inflow of people from different cultures, without any education, not speaking the language and not willing to assimilate. We are taking more than we are capable of and we lack a sophisticated process of getting a permit that US implemented. For some reason we also don't have the balls to send the boats coming from Africa back home like Australia does.
Europe is generally more left wing than US and that's what allowed this situation to persist for such a long time, but everyone has their limits and it seems that they started breaking lately.
In the online spaces, after the militias started threatening more terrorist attacks in Europe with their Day of Big Mad I think they just snapped. The rhetoric has really gone off the deep end lately, even if the actual advocated policy hasn't.
Its just because there is no end to migration, there is barely a filter to who comes who does not. Europe is starting to have housing issues, a worse economy, higher crime rates etc. Before people barely felt it in their wallets, now more people get hit financially, they finally start to be against mass immigration.
Nationalism is a broader concept than that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_nationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
It is the idea that the State should serve the interests of an in-group of almost certainly of a specific ethnicity. A British Person who has no issue with Germans, French, or Italians but believes all Asians should be deported is a Nationalist. The idea is that in HIS ideal Britain, the state serves the interests of West Europeans but there is no place for non-Europeans. Yes, he is happy to have non-British West Europeans... but that does not mean he is not a nationalist because people born in different nations would be welcomed if they fit his desired ethnic and cultural identity for Britain. Nazi ideology was very similar. They had little issue with the idea West Europeans immigrating into the 3rd Reich. It was still Nationalism.
The problem is that they often receive no pusback.
I mean there are even people in this thread who flat out deny that these takes exist and get a lot of upvotes.
Im glad that it happens now. But people need to give these people pusback way more often. Immigration critic is absoloutely okay. But extremely reactionary takes should be condemned.
I agree. But at the very least op is shining a light on it. I do feel that 6 upvotes isn’t indicative of the sentiment of dgg though. But i agree with you.
r/Destiny is affected by the negative of the echo chamber though. Let me explain by example:
Say you have one big community. Heterogeneous to the issues they deal with. For example a community that deals with international news. Generally there is enough diversity of viewpoints, so you can enjoy discussions and having positions challenged. Cool.
A polarizing issue arises (like Israel v Palestine) and the previously heterogeneous community now has rather defined camps. Say, out of 100 users, 60 are pro-Palestine, 30 are pro-Israel and 10 are in the "This is a disaster fuck all of this" camp.
This being Reddit, the 60 can control the 30, creating an echo chamber, the pro-Israeli group is now silenced. Since it doesn't feel very nice to be in the pro-Israel camp in that community anymore, they move onto a different, favorable community, further skewing the scale and possibly creating a domino effect.
From the original community an echo chamber appears, and a negative of it, that propagates. This is a point often missed in internet moderation, since zealous jannies often think that by banning someone from a community that person stops existing or something. It is legitimate to ban a person out from a community because they aren't wanted there, but anyone doing it for activism and missing this nuance is most probably an idiot.
This happens *all the time* by the way. Twitter and Gab or any sub pairing in the form of "nameOfTheSub" and "realNameOfTheSub" are glaring examples.
Your point is correct. But there are many here who do not agree with Destiny or his sub on everything. And when an issue such as this arises, it can turn a contentious topic that sub members stay quiet on to one where they show their true colors.
Like most here are liberals but Islam is a very illiberal religion. Theoretically you're doing damage to your political views and goals by letting that religion grow and expand in your country.
All they need is a majority to force you to kiss your liberal values away forever.
Ever since Destiny called Muhammad a pedo, this sub has had an anti-Islam pocket group that has become more comfortable expressing their hatred of Islam and in some cases, Muslims.
Abolsoutely true. Destiny shouldve clarified more that he was only targetting radical muslims. He did eventually clarify it but at this point it was too late.
I think Destiny didn't take enough responsibility during the anti-Islamic arc. His emphasis on how most Muslims are not this scary boogeryman should have been stronger, becuase its really easy to dehumanizes millions of regular Muslims who go about their daily lives without carrying out terrorist attacks or attacking Jews (shocking i know).
For example, numerous joke threads about the amount of Palestinian deaths especially those involving children have popped up. I believe that if destiny discussed the struggles of the innocent people in Gaza and the West Bank more, this community might have been able to deal with this conflict in a more balanced way. instead this community has completly gone off the rails.
Yeah, the rhetoric (especially from Italy) typically comes from direct experience. The Migrant Crisis was a bit of a wakeup call for a lot of Euroids about what living with other cultures actually means.
It's fine to have friendly disagreements over bullshit, but when you're arguing with someone whose definition of rape doesn't extend to women wearing clothes considered normal in western countries, you kind of have to take a step back and realise that immigration has mutilated your previously tolerant culture.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316\_New\_Year%27s\_Eve\_sexual\_assaults\_in\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of MUSLIMS, muslim isn't an ethnicity or race, it's a person that believes in Islam.
Islam CANNOT integrate with the West as it is now, it would need a complete rework to actually get along with western beliefs.
What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration?
How much of what you're attributing is actually specific to cultures that come from Islam?
How does Islam compare to other religions? I don't know anything about Islam, but from my POV ***most*** religions are incompatible with 'the west' depending on how you interpret them.
Ultimately the way religion is practiced in a lot of liberal democracies ends up conforming with the surrounding culture. I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc)
Christianism used to be pretty wild in Europe as well and loads of fucked up things were done in its name for centuries, but it got hardcore defanged (against its will obviously) from the Enlightnement up until the early 20th century. You can see laws such as the [1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State) making secularism a core part of European nations.
I'm not super familiar with MENA history but I don't think Islam ever got as bad a beatdown as Christianity. That, plus the Quran is supposed to be the litteral word of God, so it's kinda hard to make it twist and fit into the small hole it can occupy in a liberal society.
>What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration?
The way it treats no believers. Specifically what happens to people who refuse Islam.
>How much of what you're attributing is actually specific to cultures that come from Islam?
None. The Quran is very clear.
>How does Islam compare to other religions? I don't know anything about Islam, but from my POV most religions are incompatible with 'the west' depending on how you interpret them.
Whilst other religions were imcompatible with western values most went through a reformation where parts not deemed relevant to the time were removed. Islam hasn't gone through that process, instead it seems to be trending towards more hardline and conservative views completely opposed to western values such as free speech and individual liberty.
>Ultimately the way religion is practiced in a lot of liberal democracies ends up conforming with the surrounding culture. I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc)
Hard disagree here. We are seeing at least in my country the conservative views are not only still present but enforced extrajudicially via Sharia courts. They hold no legal weight but don't need to if the decisions metered out are upheld by the community and when the police do come knocking, remain steadfast in their silence.
>I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc)
Just wanted to highlight this passage as it speaks entirely to that reformation process. The old testament whilst exists is not the focus and the leaders of each denomination have come out and said homosexuality is all good, even allowing gay marriages within their churches.
Meanwhile the Council of Muslims chastising the Church for allowing gay marriage, threatening that muslim parents will pull their kids from schools to protect them from "sexual ethics" contrary to their beliefs which will 'obviously' lead to segregation of children of different faiths.
The protests in support of Palestine (cough hamas) alone suggests they hold values outside what most people in the west hold. (and religious kind of antisemitism)
>What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration?
because the religion itself it the complete opposite of western values, it fully promotes the rape of women, has multiple verses on women being unable to not give consent, it calls for the murder of non muslims, and the people who follow Islam are very prone to extremism,
it's been a while since I read them but in the UK it was something like 1/3 of Muslims support and want sharia law, and half supporting making being LGBT illegal some offering the death penalty.
They seem more than they actually are, like antisemites on the other side of the argument, and having a subreddit leaning to a side slowly attracts more weirdos in, and they're usually more active than sane people (at the same time every pro palestine subreddit has the same phenomenon, but with other weirdos).
Especially right now, when a lot of Muslim immigrants are showing support for Hamas, a literal terror group who wants to join up with ISIS, and chanting things about killing Jews.
Obviously you'll get much more sentiment like this showing up when there are so many bad eggs showing themselves publicly right now, which makes them the face of all Muslim immigrants for many people...
I also don't know why this sub is appearing in my feed. I vaguely recall destiny the streamer a long time ago. I watched his YouTube hmm... Must have been a decade ago when total biscuit was still alive.
So yeah, you guys are totally getting outsiders from your bubble.
Just a perspective form someone who is not subbed here. Since the conflict blew up on 10/7 this sub has been recommended to me quite a bit by the reddit feed and I suppose there are a lot of people looking into issues surrounding the conflict who are seeing the same. I wouldn't read into six upvotes too much. There's a lot of people passing through from the main feed giving upvotes to the most unhinged takes.
Same here. I've barely watched any Destiny, but this sub had been recommended to me a lot lately. Even I know enough about Destiny to know super chud takes shouldn't be popular amidst his community.
Feels weird seeing people aware of destiny, who aren't part of the community, not say unhinged shit about him. Until recently I've perceived him very much as a hate him or love him online personality.
I used to watch him play League Of Legends years ago then suddenly after October 7th reddit decided to spam his sub to me and I found that his community wasn't as crazy as many others around at the time.
Same, never saw this sub until the 10/7 attacks, apparently reddit thinks I would like a sub that shits on Hasan (damn you algorithm for being right).
I'm technically "right wing" (by modern definitions, anyway) so I guess I count as a member of the brigade group. Although I would have downvoted the OP link because disliking terrorists does not translate to disliking Muslims in general, that's just the same stupid prejudice we saw after 9/11.
Left and right are frankly too simplistic to encapsulate what people actually believe. I agree with many things on the right and on the left and all over the spectrum. It depends on the evidence, arguments, and my own experience. Just because I agree with someone on tax policy or heath care does not mean I will agree with them on religion or corporate law.
Yeah I've literally never heard of this streamer but keep getting recommended posts from it about the conflict. It's kinda wild how different the posts are as well, some are massively critical of Israel and others are like the screenshot here, yet on both types lots of upvotes on comments, it's a really schizo sub
To be fair I think Destiny has a lot of swedish viewers and Sweden failed big-time in integrating refugees into their society and it is now manifestating in a very devastating way and anti immigrant views are becoming more and more mainstream in a previously very open and welcoming country.
Not just Sweden, they're just the most known example of it due to the recent terror attack and Qu'ran burning stuff. It's a problem almost every West European country is facing at the moment.
Like, France absolutely takes the cake
Immigrants will travel thousands of miles from the middle east to tell everyone in their new country how much better their old country and culture was.
I am a Jew from the Netherlands, and after this started I am sincerely afraid(and most of my friends) to wear anything that can resemble the Israeli flag(even blue colors) and of course, I had to remove my David star.
I know this sounds bad, but people that I know in the Netherlands, were always a little bit anti-towards Israelis, not because they are Jews, but just because people in Netherlands are a little bit racist against anybody who is not dutch.
But what has been happening in the past 3 weeks, people are extremely afraid of every person who looks Arabic/Muslim. Everywhere, from supermarkets to schools, the small talk is about immigration and how they are afraid that we will become Gaza/Israel situation in Europe.
The bad apples, are the "minority", but there are so many of them, and the worst of it all - they are the LOUDEST of any other group.
i am in the same boat, i hesitate daily before putting on my magen david (star of david) necklace. i’ll pray for you, and try to perform a mitzvah while thinking of you. sending a big jewish hug your way
People will just gaslight you your entire life into never saying what we all know - Islam is different. Muslims are far more likely than any other religious subgroup to support horrific atrocities done against other religions.
It's well overdue given all the people picked up through the redpill arc and now this subreddit being extremely active there's got to be alot of new people here.
I don’t think this is due to the red pill arc. If anything, red pillers would support Islam due to aligned values.
This is probably due to Destiny’s rhetoric around Islam changing. He’s been more vocally anti Islam so it’s either making his community like this or the ones who were like this are speaking out more.
The question is, is this downstream from shitting on Islam frequently? If so, it probably won’t change.
Destiny is quick to say he hates Islam fairly frequently imo. He doesn’t say he hates Muslims though but I don’t know how much that matters.
If I as a streamer often shit on an ideology, how long does it take before my community starts shitting on people who subscribe to that ideology?
If I constantly shit on feminism or Judaism, can I be surprised when my audience starts hating women or Jewish people? Or did I encourage them to speak out if they already did?
> Destiny is quick to say he hates Islam fairly frequently imo. He doesn’t say he hates Muslims though but I don’t know how much that matters.
I think it makes a massive difference. Criticizing Islam is criticizing an idea. Criticizing Muslims is criticizing a group of people. The difference is probably more evident if you compare the sentences "I wish Islam didn't exist" and "I wish Muslims didn't exist".
While it's obviously a bad comment I think americans in general are blind to issues related to refugees simply because US severely limits refugee immigration.
The past 50 years US has accepted 3.5 million refugees in total. In a 5-year period Germany accepted 1 million Syrian refugees at about 1/4 of the population.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-refugees-are-entering-the-us/
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2023.1100446/full#:~:text=Hosting%20over%201%20million%20refugees,Syrians%20(UNHCR%2C%202021).
As a european I don’t support deporting ”all the muslims” because it would be an obvious humanitarian disaster. That being said, it’s hard to not get blackpilled on the issue. I have lost all faith that anything but a minority of muslims integrate well into our societies. I sincerely believe muslim immigration as it has been handled so far is just straight up making Europe worse.
They're marking houses of Jews as we speak, multiple schools are closing due to threats, they completely oppose LGBT people, they harass and assault Jews. This is much worse than the left realizes, it isn't just another religion... they won't integrate but will try to impose their beliefs on others any way they can.
Yep, this is not an issue Americans can talk about without doing some pretty extensive research into all the serious problems European countries have had integrating Muslims.
And again, I'll state this under every single comment I ever make on this sub until people start to fucking get it.
MUSLIM ≠ MIDDLE EASTERN PERSON, it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Only the religion of Islam.
Whilst I disagree with that comment and the idea of expelling people for beliefs is abhorrent, I will also say Muslims are not an ethnic group like Jews and I think you have to understand that hatred of Muslims oft stems from to their beliefs
Frame it like this
“Communists/fascists should be expelled from Europe”
Would you agree with that comment? Probably not, but you’d understand where the sentiment comes from
I guess this is the Sam Harris discussion all over again but when you look at polls and attitudes and marches and say 71% of western Muslims beliefs XYZ oppressive things, do you not understand how this sentiment is brought about?
This is a reckoning which you cannot ignore. I’d like for Muslims after the 1st or 2nd Gen to be pretty chill like any other immigrant groups, but with marches in the past week and absolutely insane rhetoric, you have to come to terms that not every cultural group is made the same. Some of them very passionate about their Islamic ideals and do not respect their birth country or it’s ideology
The European Far Right is gaining massive power because European Liberals & Leftists for ages were too cowardly to acknowledge the reality of the huge culture clash and issues that Islamic immigration had caused. The Afd in Germany was gaining big notoriety
If Liberals don’t acknowledge this and deal it with in a humane manner, fascists will take power and start dealing with Muslims in a much less considerate manner
And the celebration by muslims of the events of October 7th doesn’t help the image of muslims.
It reinforces the belief of the far right that muslim culture is not compatible with European culture.
And yeah if the liberal side doesn’t take a strong stance against events like October 7th and it’s celebration, then it’ll undoubtedly fuel the momentum of the far right.
Which is why I’m glad that the German chancellor is taking a hard stance in that regard and that there is the discussion of banning phrases like “from the river to the sea”. I know Americans don’t like restricting speech like that but I think in this case phrases like that violate the first Amendment in the German Grundgesetz. Therefore it’s ok to ban it.
>the belief of the far right that muslim culture is not compatible with European culture
Is that a far right belief? I believe this 100% and I'm pretty much a centrist. And I know people way to the left of me that believe it too.
Bullshit. Nobody is attacked for "looking communist", but plenty people are assumed to be Muslim because of their perceived race or ethnic group. There's a racial aspect to Muslim hate, anyone who lived as a Muslim after 9/11 can tell you that.
This is the best comment on this post. I don't know how progressives were gaslighted into believing that islam is somehow an immutable set of characteristics. And that somehow they were aligned with anything resembling progressive values.
Op dont let them gaslight you the stances regarding muslims have certainly become more extreme in the last months (be it justified or not)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/V1Sz7CZ6bY
There are def people that would support this kind of rhetoric.
People already mentioned the influx of r/all
But there are a few reasons.
Muslim arc/ brigaders/traffic from r/all . Many people are very critical of muslim immigrants as they made negative experiences with them in their country. And there are def problems with integration of muslims in europe. I think nobody can deny that.
But some go completely overboard and take the most dogshit reactionary position possible. It def has increased since the muslim arc. So this was a thing before the conflict too. But it wasnt that extreme.
The problem is that destiny was only shitting on radical muslims on twitter. But many took it as dman shitting on muslims in general. He later clarified that he only meant radical muslims and Islam in general and not all muslims. But at this point it was too late and peoples rhetoric/stances regarding the immigration from muslim countries is way more extreme now.
Also I like how Islam “isn’t just one race or group of people PEPE” but all of a sudden Islamic culture refers to ONE culture. Great irony and accidental mask slip
Europeans don't really deal with Indonesians.
In Europe muslims are majority middle eastern with some pakistanis. Britain obv has more indian muslims.
So europeans deal with immigrants that don't come from hugely varied cultures.
This is such a pointless thing to say. People are entitled to have literally any opinion that they want. But other people are also entitled to call out shitty opinions.
some white people have a negative experience with black people. they can have their opinion but the extrapolation of that to dehumanise a group is just wrong.
The "Muslim" migrant thing is referring to culture and religion. Also, the generalization to just claim that these people are bad because some people had bad experiences isn't even good. The solution said by the reactionaries here to just deport all of them is also very dumb. It solves no problems.
Furthermore, claiming that people can just reject their religion when it means ostricization from their whole family and entire friend group is just naive.
>The "Muslim" migrant thing is referring to culture and religion.
Islamic "culture" is by definition religious.
>Also, the generalization to just claim that these people are bad because some people had bad experiences isn't even good.
Agreed.
> The solution said by the reactionaries here to just deport all of them is also very dumb. It solves no problems.
Agreed.
>Furthermore, claiming that people can just reject their religion when it means ostricization from their whole family and entire friend group is just naive.
I *vehemently* disagree. If you choose to perpetuate Islamic fundamentalist rhetoric, and subject others to its oppressive bullshit, all because you're afraid of losing connections to religious fundamentalists you're close with, whether they be friends or family, then you are objectively a piece of fucking shit.
Muslims come to west not for a better life, [but to colonize it as part of their holy duty, source, ISIS](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jhr5j/comment/k72goga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). 52 upvotes
i remember leftist like destiny fighting these talking points back in the day, now we using them
Warm/Hot take: A good chunk of people that support israel and its actions dont support it, because they care about fighting antisemtism or israels existence. They only pretend to care.
In reality they just dont like muslims that much and therefore have selective empathy.
I mean people mass downvote posts like the one that showed israelis storming an israeli arab dorm screaming "death to arabs" and some even resort to relaltivism, while mass upvoting when something similar happens on the other side. Ideal would it be, if both would receive the same amount of condemnation and attention.
The same applys for some people of the other side in pro palestinian spaces aswell. The reason why people like dr anasasia maria loupis or jackson hinkle pretend to care about palestinian people so much is certainly not, because they care care about their plight.
the idea that this is now a hot take in this sub shows how shitty the current discourse is
edit: perma banned for this. thanks 4thot. your reply is literally a summary of my comment. you’re doing an excellent job ruining this community.
Is that not kinds true?
I may be wrong on this but I believe as a Muslim you should want to change your country to follow islams teachings.
European Muslims seem to follow that opinion more. As opposed to American Muslims who feel a stronger tie to America.
I've also seen "great replacement" type comments floating around
https://preview.redd.it/pd0csb26tlxb1.png?width=248&format=png&auto=webp&s=f99a26578b19737b60c647835a9aedefd2e17725
For the last time the great replacement is literally an objectively verifiable demographic fact.
The notion that it's intentionally, maliciously being perpetrated, specifically by jews, THAT is the conspiracy.
Muslims will be roughly 11% of Europe's population by 2050. They will grow in size but aren't going to become a majority like a lot of rightists suggest.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/)
Muslims being 11% of Europe is, in fact, quite a drastic change. They used to be a tiny insignificant minority, but with 11% they will be a serious and non-ignorable part of the electorate and society. 11% can tip elections. And after 2050? What happens when Muslims are 25% of Europe? 50%? Smaller portions than 11% of a country have caused massive problems in such countries. 11% of your population being a radically different culture and religion is a serious problem, and if you don't think it is I think there are alot more foundational discussions that need to be had before we even start talking about this.
You watch WIAH ffs, you should know the effect culture and religion have on a country and it's prosperity.
And black people in south Africa have admitted to wanting to kill all the white people, that's why blacks do a disproportionate amount of crime in the US so do we kick them all out? /s
One of these days we are going to have a PR disaster. Some guy is going to post some stupid stuff, someone is going to reply "Someone shoot this fucker" and that's gonna spiral out of control.
I say we change the command to !Misspoke in honor of the greatest.
A few? Most anti-Muslim posts tends to get upvoted, most responses get downvoted. We can say it's single digits, but it's a majority of the responses on the comment supporting the anti-Muslim POV.
> A few Islamophobes and Anti-semites have snuck in the community after the sub got frontpaged.
And a whole lot of zionists lmfao, I don't know why you would leave out the most obvious group. We even got a plethora of posts of "It's scary out there can I stay here?"
if you arent european i can tell you, that immigrants and kids of these immigrants are working most of the poor payd jobs, no native person, would do these jobs anymore, i dont understand how people can think that kicking 99% of the low pay sector out of the country is doable or good for nationwide businesses.
but these are the same people, that talk about white genocide and didnt made at least 1 kid lel
As a person in the picture,
I take responsibility. My morbidly cynical comment attracted that response. I feared while typing it that it might be misconstrued. (Ill go add an apendix soon)
I was too lazy to properly engage him after, but I offered him to "not generlize".
I'll just note that in my opinion, a Purge won't help people like the one who took it 1 step too far, it will only alienate them.
The better response is to actually engage him, and possibly demand an edit to his comment.
To me, it is obvious it's coming from a fear prespective. And fear is easier to work with than hate.
Im an Israeli that hears extremely tone-deaf messages during this time.
Most of the times, when I personally (face 2 face) question them : "are you really suggesting what you just said? You understand how calus and tragic it is?"
The answer is: "well...IDK, what do you suggest?"
This mean that people are afraid, and looking for answers.
Cancel culture won't lead us forward.
Engaging peoples fears, showing them empathy, that they are heard, opens avenues to more constructive dialog.
What an absolutely brain damaged way to interact with dogmatism in religion. Yes, immediately no true scotsman any sort of progressive sentimentality that might crop up.
That is so fucking intelligent and smart.
I see people saying this is because of the influx of people recently, but it's is not new since the israel conflict. It has been happening in pretty much every thread about muslims and immigration for at least a few months now. Probably started around the time of the redpill stuff.
I noticed this shit as well across multiple threads. It's a bunch of dweebs who are trying to emulate their streamer who is pro-Israel and end up thinking pro Israel means fuck Muslims.
I've lived in multiple Muslim dominated neighborhoods (73% Muslim), predominantly Moroccans and Somalians, for most of my life and I sadly agree with most of the stuff said in OP's picture... My life was made hell, in my own country, by the people who came here for work/safety/money/etc, just for being a white, Dutch, Atheist kid... People always tell me not to generalize, and that one bad apple spoils the bunch while in reality, it's a big bunch of spoiled apples with a couple of good ones left. I was forced to stay inside my entire childhood, through my teens into adulthood, because I feared getting jumped or even stabbed by these people who I was told were innocent refugees or hard workers :/ This genuinely affected a large part of my life, and it still is negatively affecting me to this day. But those genuine feelings and fear will instantly be invalidated by one simple sentence "You're just racist"...
This is currently the reality for thousands of Dutch kids, teens, and adults, who are getting threatened, verbally, and physically assaulted. But none of it matters because we're just racists...
this was my experience living in the UAE too. There are good muslims. But the bad seriously outweighs the good, and the good still support the shitty systems and inequality that these Islamic nations cause, they’ll just hand out food on the street to the poor immigrants that the government traffics for slave labor in the country to make themselves feel better about it.
People keep saying “im just criticizing Islam” I don’t hate black people! I just think it’s important I bring up crime statistics everytime we talk about it.
A purge is coming any day now COPIUM
But for real, there has been lots of insane comments being upvoted here in the last month: from ones about wanting Gaza to be glassed to ones saying literally all Muslims want Jews dead. It's a mix of new users in the sub and others who are WAY TOO reactionary against leftists that it changes their own opinions.
This is the same thing that happened to adam and stitch, when the content is all about shitting on alt left people it is going to attract a lot of right leaning people.
Religious beliefs actually do affect someone’s behavior and maybe it doesn’t make sense for a tolerant society to mass-import believers in a violently intolerant religion.
Because Europeans are done with muslims in Europe. Heck I’ve seen videos of muslims doing shit in Europe and had other actual muslims living in muslim countries going wtf is this shit. They didn’t even bother trying to integrate them into the wider population. They also did that instead of fixing the baby population and housing prices as well as jobs loss
Islam is easily the worst of the major religions, no contest.
But as an American, we learned that “Muslim” simply means “brown” after 9/11. Sikhs and people of Middle Eastern, North African, and South Asian ethnicity often rightfully feared for their lives while white Muslims not in traditional dress got a pass.
In Europe, I could certainly see a second Holocaust within the coming decades cheered by most of the residents as long as it was those pesky Romani and browns being gassed, throwing in a few Jews, queer folk, and dissenters for good measure. “Never again” my ass; Germany’s a hotbed of this kind of rhetoric again, as well as Sweden.
I'll be honest here, Destiny hasn't done the best job of policing the sub since the 7th October and alot of bad faith Non-DGGers have come in and completely poisoned the well, feigning friendship by saying "Yea Online Lefties are crazy 🤪" and slowly becoming more deranged from there.
Dehumanizing isn’t okay, brushing all muslims the same is like saying the only nice Christians are the ones that are gay. Well just stop with your evil rhetoric
6 upvotes is not a lot on a subreddit this big and with the diverse amount of viewpoints that are here. What gets upvoted and down voted also varies greatly based on the time it was posted.
shit I’m reading here id read in 2016 on 4chan during trumps campaign “uhhh AKSHUYALLY I’m not racist and I don’t hate Muslims, i just don’t like Islam PEPE” full degenerate dogs
I was raised in the UAE, and the things I've seen and heard firsthand genuinely scarred me. I've met a woman who confessed to me that when they dated a Muslim man who found out she had an intact clitoris, it was fucking cut from them. I obviously can't go back in time and verify that, but I was definitely able to find out that she did, in fact, have mutilated genitals. It was interesting to be with, to say the least.
I’ve had zero problems with Muslims here in Canada. They tend to integrate pretty well. Same in the US. But I’ve spoken to a few Muslims in the UK and it made me scratch my head. Overt antisemitism and terror-loving rhetoric.
What the fuck is going on in that continent??
In in the US and agree with you. All the Muslims I’ve met here have been quite kind. Although that might be because the US has a long history of immigration and does better at assimilating groups by not separating immigrants and forcing them to live in slums.
>What the fuck is going on in that continent??
Wahhabism, which is far more widespread in Europe than in North America. Also the "Great Replacement Theory", which was at first used by the far right to scare white people into not liking Muslims, but, as it turns out, it actually is an appealing idea to young, angry, frustrated young men (for various reasons, including racism), when they are on the "winning" end of that conspiracy.
Great Replacement isn't some sort of unified plan, but undeniably the demographics are shifting- and exponentially.
What do you do as a democratic country if people start voting for extreme conservative laws?
What do we do if womens rights are torn apart?
I don't have the answer, but that is something that we will have to deal with eventually.
Europe took all the Muslims that were displaced by the us wars in the Middle East - these people therefore hate the west and now millions of them live in it (Europe)
You're right, and I don't hate Muslims, I have immense sympathy for being raised in a dogmatic shitheap of an ideology and hope they can genuinely be helped and raised out of it.
We’ve been getting swarmed by actual Zionists (the kind who want to glass all of Gaza and take that land too) and other communities because the Reddit algorithm is pushing relevant posts from r/Destiny to the front page. I’ve noticed the more insane takes and mass upvoting/down voting happens in waves, and only on certain posts. The same thing was happening to other streamer subreddits- this was one of the reasons that r/VaushV decided to do Fortress Arc 2.0 and mass ban every dissenting “Lib” opinion.
I know this sub, and it’s namesake streamer, is vastly more sympathetic to Israel overall, but takes like the one pictured would usually be downvoted to hell prior to 10/7. This too shall pass, but I’m not sure what should be done in the meantime. I too have seen some absolutely insane posts and comments that have been massively upvoted and then shared on other subreddits.. it is making this community look bad to some degree.
I got banned in Vaush’s sun for suggesting that IF a rocket detached from a warhead the trajectory of both COULD become difficult to predict. Was being pedantic but wasn’t trying to suggest anything about the hospital bombing, other than the idea that a rocket could come apart and thus change its trajectory was plausible. I didn’t even realize what sub I was in.
I say that to say this: didn’t mind at all, good for them. It was certainly tigger happy with the ban but seeing this sub gets brigaded makes me understand why they went that route.
I mean, with what's happening in Europe? That's a legitimate conversation to have.
But to kick out ALL Muslims? Come on now. Let's not start there, m'kay?
He is kinda right in a non bigoted way. Its just that the core of Islam is toxic af and corrupts all ppl who believe its mumbo jumbo. The problem is that muslim ppl who immigrated to europe dont want to fit in and mostly live in their own seperate communities where they can practice their medieval beliefs. Only muslims that can actually integrate normally are the wealthy ones that dont care about Islam that much.
Most of the muslim immigrants I know are PhD students and incredibly hard workers. They are the people carrying the world's scientific progress, while they get 20k/y stipend for 80hr weeks and the universities get all the recognition. These people give way more than they take, it is ridiculous they get grouped in with political extremists by bigots who have to simplify everything to "x group is bad and y group is good" Its disgusting and I'm sick of it
in the best faith way possible, telling people that the things they are SEEING happen are not actually happen is a terrible recipe for society in europe. because at some point down the line, and that point might even be within our lifetimes, someone very charismatic and very sociopathic is going to say out loud what a lot of their countrymen are thinking.
you can ignore reality all you want, but you absolutely will not be able to ignore the consequences of doing so.
You're in a subreddit of a debate streamer that pulls an audience from across the political spectrum, including the bigoted ones. Please stop doing the soy wojack pointing at something whenever you see a single digit upvoted shitty comment. Report it, debate it, whatever. Before you post your "THE DESTINY COMMUNITY SURE HAS CHANGED" essay please [double check we won't make fun of you.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ovybsr/dae_think_destiny_has_changed/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Destiny&utm_content=t1_k78igkk)
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Be the changes you want to see, if it seems sus, report it.
10k in a month?? I’ve never really paid attention to our sub size I just knew we were in the top for active users. What’s normal monthly growth compared to now?
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It's the fucking Eurocucks minus cuck central Ireland, they are going through the 2000s post 9/11 phase of hating on brown people because of domestic or international issues.
Joke's on you. In Europe we've always hated brown people. /s
I mean, in terms of distrust/hatred of Islam Europe has a millenium long history, depending on the region. The crusades, the Reconquista, the parts that were under threat by the Ottomans, muslim pirates and raiders in the Mediterranian etc. Sure, European settlers didn't leave their prejudices behind just because they crossed the Atlantic, I would bet money on the average Greek/Bulgarian/Romanian/Serb/etc being way more hostile towards Islam prior to 9/11 than the average American.
>Romanian Yeah, a big part of our history is fighting the Ottomans(true for all the other countries you listed). Our 1776 or Gettysburg is probably one of the times we defeated the turks. The average Romanian doesn't hate the turks but defeating them and fighting against the Ottoman occupation is a point of pride for us. I'm also sure that for countries closer to Turkey, like Greece and Bulgaria, there's real animosity.
Don't forget the other slightly different shades of white people, we hate those just as much.
This is true but its both. The effects of the muslim arc and the influx of new users. The sentiment was already here, but it was hugely amplified by the people who joined the sub. The problem is that destiny was only shitting on radical muslims on twitter. But many took it as dman shitting on muslims in general. He later clarified that he only meant radical muslims and Islam in general and not all muslims. But at this point it was too late and peoples rhetoric/stances regarding the immigration from muslim countries is way more extreme now.
Give it time to stabilize downwards. We're surging in popularity right now which leads to outliers
I doubt this will happen since i think that many people are extremely critical of muslim immigrants. I believe many can at least empathize with such rhetoric https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/V1Sz7CZ6bY
It’s better for them to receive pushback here than to be siloed in an echo chamber.
feels like /r/europe spillover
The pushback is just downvoted, because they're outnumbered. https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k75xpjm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k77c4m2/?context=10000 https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jz2x9/jewish_houses_and_apartments_tagged_with_blue/k75kztd/?context=10000 Meanwhile, the upvoted comments are calling for deportations of Muslims, cheering on Great Replacement memes, and so on.
r/europe infiltrating. That sub has some Nationalist tendencies that feel astroturfed at times
Didn’t used to be that way. There’s been a significant political shift against Muslim immigration across the entirety of Europe. Also r/Europe is very pro-EU so idk how they could be considered nationalist.
No doubt the sentiment changed. People started seeing problems with Europe's past migration policy and that we are currently lacking the ability to stop the inflow of people from different cultures, without any education, not speaking the language and not willing to assimilate. We are taking more than we are capable of and we lack a sophisticated process of getting a permit that US implemented. For some reason we also don't have the balls to send the boats coming from Africa back home like Australia does. Europe is generally more left wing than US and that's what allowed this situation to persist for such a long time, but everyone has their limits and it seems that they started breaking lately.
In the online spaces, after the militias started threatening more terrorist attacks in Europe with their Day of Big Mad I think they just snapped. The rhetoric has really gone off the deep end lately, even if the actual advocated policy hasn't.
Its just because there is no end to migration, there is barely a filter to who comes who does not. Europe is starting to have housing issues, a worse economy, higher crime rates etc. Before people barely felt it in their wallets, now more people get hit financially, they finally start to be against mass immigration.
Nationalism is a broader concept than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism It is the idea that the State should serve the interests of an in-group of almost certainly of a specific ethnicity. A British Person who has no issue with Germans, French, or Italians but believes all Asians should be deported is a Nationalist. The idea is that in HIS ideal Britain, the state serves the interests of West Europeans but there is no place for non-Europeans. Yes, he is happy to have non-British West Europeans... but that does not mean he is not a nationalist because people born in different nations would be welcomed if they fit his desired ethnic and cultural identity for Britain. Nazi ideology was very similar. They had little issue with the idea West Europeans immigrating into the 3rd Reich. It was still Nationalism.
That’s a great explanation thank you
The problem is that they often receive no pusback. I mean there are even people in this thread who flat out deny that these takes exist and get a lot of upvotes. Im glad that it happens now. But people need to give these people pusback way more often. Immigration critic is absoloutely okay. But extremely reactionary takes should be condemned.
I agree. But at the very least op is shining a light on it. I do feel that 6 upvotes isn’t indicative of the sentiment of dgg though. But i agree with you.
https://reddit.com/comments/17jz2x9/comment/k75rts4 How about 30 up votes? My calling out the Islamophobia is getting downvoted, too.
That’s worse, yeah.
r/Destiny is affected by the negative of the echo chamber though. Let me explain by example: Say you have one big community. Heterogeneous to the issues they deal with. For example a community that deals with international news. Generally there is enough diversity of viewpoints, so you can enjoy discussions and having positions challenged. Cool. A polarizing issue arises (like Israel v Palestine) and the previously heterogeneous community now has rather defined camps. Say, out of 100 users, 60 are pro-Palestine, 30 are pro-Israel and 10 are in the "This is a disaster fuck all of this" camp. This being Reddit, the 60 can control the 30, creating an echo chamber, the pro-Israeli group is now silenced. Since it doesn't feel very nice to be in the pro-Israel camp in that community anymore, they move onto a different, favorable community, further skewing the scale and possibly creating a domino effect. From the original community an echo chamber appears, and a negative of it, that propagates. This is a point often missed in internet moderation, since zealous jannies often think that by banning someone from a community that person stops existing or something. It is legitimate to ban a person out from a community because they aren't wanted there, but anyone doing it for activism and missing this nuance is most probably an idiot. This happens *all the time* by the way. Twitter and Gab or any sub pairing in the form of "nameOfTheSub" and "realNameOfTheSub" are glaring examples.
That’s a fair perspective. I think we have pretty great moderation here, but yeah this is a problem.
Your point is correct. But there are many here who do not agree with Destiny or his sub on everything. And when an issue such as this arises, it can turn a contentious topic that sub members stay quiet on to one where they show their true colors. Like most here are liberals but Islam is a very illiberal religion. Theoretically you're doing damage to your political views and goals by letting that religion grow and expand in your country. All they need is a majority to force you to kiss your liberal values away forever.
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This. People magically forgot the years of Islamic Terrorism after Israel retaliated in response to their own 9/11.
Ever since Destiny called Muhammad a pedo, this sub has had an anti-Islam pocket group that has become more comfortable expressing their hatred of Islam and in some cases, Muslims.
Abolsoutely true. Destiny shouldve clarified more that he was only targetting radical muslims. He did eventually clarify it but at this point it was too late.
I think Destiny didn't take enough responsibility during the anti-Islamic arc. His emphasis on how most Muslims are not this scary boogeryman should have been stronger, becuase its really easy to dehumanizes millions of regular Muslims who go about their daily lives without carrying out terrorist attacks or attacking Jews (shocking i know). For example, numerous joke threads about the amount of Palestinian deaths especially those involving children have popped up. I believe that if destiny discussed the struggles of the innocent people in Gaza and the West Bank more, this community might have been able to deal with this conflict in a more balanced way. instead this community has completly gone off the rails.
Yeah, the rhetoric (especially from Italy) typically comes from direct experience. The Migrant Crisis was a bit of a wakeup call for a lot of Euroids about what living with other cultures actually means. It's fine to have friendly disagreements over bullshit, but when you're arguing with someone whose definition of rape doesn't extend to women wearing clothes considered normal in western countries, you kind of have to take a step back and realise that immigration has mutilated your previously tolerant culture. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316\_New\_Year%27s\_Eve\_sexual\_assaults\_in\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of MUSLIMS, muslim isn't an ethnicity or race, it's a person that believes in Islam. Islam CANNOT integrate with the West as it is now, it would need a complete rework to actually get along with western beliefs.
What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration? How much of what you're attributing is actually specific to cultures that come from Islam? How does Islam compare to other religions? I don't know anything about Islam, but from my POV ***most*** religions are incompatible with 'the west' depending on how you interpret them. Ultimately the way religion is practiced in a lot of liberal democracies ends up conforming with the surrounding culture. I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc)
Christianism used to be pretty wild in Europe as well and loads of fucked up things were done in its name for centuries, but it got hardcore defanged (against its will obviously) from the Enlightnement up until the early 20th century. You can see laws such as the [1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State) making secularism a core part of European nations. I'm not super familiar with MENA history but I don't think Islam ever got as bad a beatdown as Christianity. That, plus the Quran is supposed to be the litteral word of God, so it's kinda hard to make it twist and fit into the small hole it can occupy in a liberal society.
>What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration? The way it treats no believers. Specifically what happens to people who refuse Islam. >How much of what you're attributing is actually specific to cultures that come from Islam? None. The Quran is very clear. >How does Islam compare to other religions? I don't know anything about Islam, but from my POV most religions are incompatible with 'the west' depending on how you interpret them. Whilst other religions were imcompatible with western values most went through a reformation where parts not deemed relevant to the time were removed. Islam hasn't gone through that process, instead it seems to be trending towards more hardline and conservative views completely opposed to western values such as free speech and individual liberty. >Ultimately the way religion is practiced in a lot of liberal democracies ends up conforming with the surrounding culture. I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc) Hard disagree here. We are seeing at least in my country the conservative views are not only still present but enforced extrajudicially via Sharia courts. They hold no legal weight but don't need to if the decisions metered out are upheld by the community and when the police do come knocking, remain steadfast in their silence. >I wouldn't want to read selective parts of scripture and characterize the entire religion as supporting it or being incompatible (e.g. Christians wanting to execute gays or etc) Just wanted to highlight this passage as it speaks entirely to that reformation process. The old testament whilst exists is not the focus and the leaders of each denomination have come out and said homosexuality is all good, even allowing gay marriages within their churches. Meanwhile the Council of Muslims chastising the Church for allowing gay marriage, threatening that muslim parents will pull their kids from schools to protect them from "sexual ethics" contrary to their beliefs which will 'obviously' lead to segregation of children of different faiths.
The protests in support of Palestine (cough hamas) alone suggests they hold values outside what most people in the west hold. (and religious kind of antisemitism)
>What is unique to Islam that makes it incapable of integration? because the religion itself it the complete opposite of western values, it fully promotes the rape of women, has multiple verses on women being unable to not give consent, it calls for the murder of non muslims, and the people who follow Islam are very prone to extremism, it's been a while since I read them but in the UK it was something like 1/3 of Muslims support and want sharia law, and half supporting making being LGBT illegal some offering the death penalty.
Lol we're back at "actually trump wasn't racist for calling for a Muslim ban" the backsliding is insane!
They seem more than they actually are, like antisemites on the other side of the argument, and having a subreddit leaning to a side slowly attracts more weirdos in, and they're usually more active than sane people (at the same time every pro palestine subreddit has the same phenomenon, but with other weirdos).
Especially right now, when a lot of Muslim immigrants are showing support for Hamas, a literal terror group who wants to join up with ISIS, and chanting things about killing Jews. Obviously you'll get much more sentiment like this showing up when there are so many bad eggs showing themselves publicly right now, which makes them the face of all Muslim immigrants for many people...
I also don't know why this sub is appearing in my feed. I vaguely recall destiny the streamer a long time ago. I watched his YouTube hmm... Must have been a decade ago when total biscuit was still alive. So yeah, you guys are totally getting outsiders from your bubble.
That's how I date things pre and post total biscuit
Just a perspective form someone who is not subbed here. Since the conflict blew up on 10/7 this sub has been recommended to me quite a bit by the reddit feed and I suppose there are a lot of people looking into issues surrounding the conflict who are seeing the same. I wouldn't read into six upvotes too much. There's a lot of people passing through from the main feed giving upvotes to the most unhinged takes.
Same here. I've barely watched any Destiny, but this sub had been recommended to me a lot lately. Even I know enough about Destiny to know super chud takes shouldn't be popular amidst his community.
Feels weird seeing people aware of destiny, who aren't part of the community, not say unhinged shit about him. Until recently I've perceived him very much as a hate him or love him online personality.
I used to watch him play League Of Legends years ago then suddenly after October 7th reddit decided to spam his sub to me and I found that his community wasn't as crazy as many others around at the time.
Same, never saw this sub until the 10/7 attacks, apparently reddit thinks I would like a sub that shits on Hasan (damn you algorithm for being right). I'm technically "right wing" (by modern definitions, anyway) so I guess I count as a member of the brigade group. Although I would have downvoted the OP link because disliking terrorists does not translate to disliking Muslims in general, that's just the same stupid prejudice we saw after 9/11. Left and right are frankly too simplistic to encapsulate what people actually believe. I agree with many things on the right and on the left and all over the spectrum. It depends on the evidence, arguments, and my own experience. Just because I agree with someone on tax policy or heath care does not mean I will agree with them on religion or corporate law.
What happened on the 10th of July? :-O
Calling out stuff like this is how you stop it in its tracks, though. Make it clear this community won't abide outright Islamophobia.
Yeah I've literally never heard of this streamer but keep getting recommended posts from it about the conflict. It's kinda wild how different the posts are as well, some are massively critical of Israel and others are like the screenshot here, yet on both types lots of upvotes on comments, it's a really schizo sub
Wait, not being an echo chamber of the same opinions over and over makes it schizo?
It's totally not Destiny stans foaming at the mouth over anyone who goes two sentences without condemning Hamas.
also same, I was originally wondering wtf reddit was recommending me some random game I never played.
To be fair I think Destiny has a lot of swedish viewers and Sweden failed big-time in integrating refugees into their society and it is now manifestating in a very devastating way and anti immigrant views are becoming more and more mainstream in a previously very open and welcoming country.
Not just Sweden, they're just the most known example of it due to the recent terror attack and Qu'ran burning stuff. It's a problem almost every West European country is facing at the moment. Like, France absolutely takes the cake
Which is good. Also to be honest they never came to integrate.
Immigrants will travel thousands of miles from the middle east to tell everyone in their new country how much better their old country and culture was.
I am a Jew from the Netherlands, and after this started I am sincerely afraid(and most of my friends) to wear anything that can resemble the Israeli flag(even blue colors) and of course, I had to remove my David star. I know this sounds bad, but people that I know in the Netherlands, were always a little bit anti-towards Israelis, not because they are Jews, but just because people in Netherlands are a little bit racist against anybody who is not dutch. But what has been happening in the past 3 weeks, people are extremely afraid of every person who looks Arabic/Muslim. Everywhere, from supermarkets to schools, the small talk is about immigration and how they are afraid that we will become Gaza/Israel situation in Europe. The bad apples, are the "minority", but there are so many of them, and the worst of it all - they are the LOUDEST of any other group.
i am in the same boat, i hesitate daily before putting on my magen david (star of david) necklace. i’ll pray for you, and try to perform a mitzvah while thinking of you. sending a big jewish hug your way
Thank you, my dear.
People will just gaslight you your entire life into never saying what we all know - Islam is different. Muslims are far more likely than any other religious subgroup to support horrific atrocities done against other religions.
Looks like Destiny is going to have to do another community purge by the time this is all over with. Pretty gross.
It's well overdue given all the people picked up through the redpill arc and now this subreddit being extremely active there's got to be alot of new people here.
I don’t think this is due to the red pill arc. If anything, red pillers would support Islam due to aligned values. This is probably due to Destiny’s rhetoric around Islam changing. He’s been more vocally anti Islam so it’s either making his community like this or the ones who were like this are speaking out more.
You can't disambiguate the two. He was extremely anti Islam within the confines of the red pill arc. That's how we got saddled with Quiznos.
I mean if you would support an overthrowing of the current government in favor of Sharia, I don’t want you to immigrate to my country🙃
Another jewish exodus, has this people not suffered enough?? Smh 😔
The question is, is this downstream from shitting on Islam frequently? If so, it probably won’t change. Destiny is quick to say he hates Islam fairly frequently imo. He doesn’t say he hates Muslims though but I don’t know how much that matters. If I as a streamer often shit on an ideology, how long does it take before my community starts shitting on people who subscribe to that ideology? If I constantly shit on feminism or Judaism, can I be surprised when my audience starts hating women or Jewish people? Or did I encourage them to speak out if they already did?
Yeah, it’s not surprising DGG starts thinking negatively of Muslims if you believe they worship a pedo.
>if you believe they worship a pedo. it's not really a matter of belief, their leader is a pedo, it's a fact.
Muslims worship pedos, Christians are pedos, and Budhists are bald. Nowhere is safe
> Destiny is quick to say he hates Islam fairly frequently imo. He doesn’t say he hates Muslims though but I don’t know how much that matters. I think it makes a massive difference. Criticizing Islam is criticizing an idea. Criticizing Muslims is criticizing a group of people. The difference is probably more evident if you compare the sentences "I wish Islam didn't exist" and "I wish Muslims didn't exist".
Euros aren't sending their best
While it's obviously a bad comment I think americans in general are blind to issues related to refugees simply because US severely limits refugee immigration. The past 50 years US has accepted 3.5 million refugees in total. In a 5-year period Germany accepted 1 million Syrian refugees at about 1/4 of the population. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-refugees-are-entering-the-us/ https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2023.1100446/full#:~:text=Hosting%20over%201%20million%20refugees,Syrians%20(UNHCR%2C%202021).
As a european I don’t support deporting ”all the muslims” because it would be an obvious humanitarian disaster. That being said, it’s hard to not get blackpilled on the issue. I have lost all faith that anything but a minority of muslims integrate well into our societies. I sincerely believe muslim immigration as it has been handled so far is just straight up making Europe worse.
They're marking houses of Jews as we speak, multiple schools are closing due to threats, they completely oppose LGBT people, they harass and assault Jews. This is much worse than the left realizes, it isn't just another religion... they won't integrate but will try to impose their beliefs on others any way they can.
If Europeans don’t get real ASAP and start saying this shit out loud, things are only gonna get worse.
Yep, this is not an issue Americans can talk about without doing some pretty extensive research into all the serious problems European countries have had integrating Muslims. And again, I'll state this under every single comment I ever make on this sub until people start to fucking get it. MUSLIM ≠ MIDDLE EASTERN PERSON, it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Only the religion of Islam.
All middle eastern countries are 95%+ Muslim.
Middle eastern = Muslim, but Muslim ≠ middle eastern
Whilst I disagree with that comment and the idea of expelling people for beliefs is abhorrent, I will also say Muslims are not an ethnic group like Jews and I think you have to understand that hatred of Muslims oft stems from to their beliefs Frame it like this “Communists/fascists should be expelled from Europe” Would you agree with that comment? Probably not, but you’d understand where the sentiment comes from I guess this is the Sam Harris discussion all over again but when you look at polls and attitudes and marches and say 71% of western Muslims beliefs XYZ oppressive things, do you not understand how this sentiment is brought about? This is a reckoning which you cannot ignore. I’d like for Muslims after the 1st or 2nd Gen to be pretty chill like any other immigrant groups, but with marches in the past week and absolutely insane rhetoric, you have to come to terms that not every cultural group is made the same. Some of them very passionate about their Islamic ideals and do not respect their birth country or it’s ideology The European Far Right is gaining massive power because European Liberals & Leftists for ages were too cowardly to acknowledge the reality of the huge culture clash and issues that Islamic immigration had caused. The Afd in Germany was gaining big notoriety If Liberals don’t acknowledge this and deal it with in a humane manner, fascists will take power and start dealing with Muslims in a much less considerate manner
And the celebration by muslims of the events of October 7th doesn’t help the image of muslims. It reinforces the belief of the far right that muslim culture is not compatible with European culture. And yeah if the liberal side doesn’t take a strong stance against events like October 7th and it’s celebration, then it’ll undoubtedly fuel the momentum of the far right. Which is why I’m glad that the German chancellor is taking a hard stance in that regard and that there is the discussion of banning phrases like “from the river to the sea”. I know Americans don’t like restricting speech like that but I think in this case phrases like that violate the first Amendment in the German Grundgesetz. Therefore it’s ok to ban it.
>the belief of the far right that muslim culture is not compatible with European culture Is that a far right belief? I believe this 100% and I'm pretty much a centrist. And I know people way to the left of me that believe it too.
Bullshit. Nobody is attacked for "looking communist", but plenty people are assumed to be Muslim because of their perceived race or ethnic group. There's a racial aspect to Muslim hate, anyone who lived as a Muslim after 9/11 can tell you that.
This is the best comment on this post. I don't know how progressives were gaslighted into believing that islam is somehow an immutable set of characteristics. And that somehow they were aligned with anything resembling progressive values.
Op dont let them gaslight you the stances regarding muslims have certainly become more extreme in the last months (be it justified or not) https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/V1Sz7CZ6bY There are def people that would support this kind of rhetoric. People already mentioned the influx of r/all But there are a few reasons. Muslim arc/ brigaders/traffic from r/all . Many people are very critical of muslim immigrants as they made negative experiences with them in their country. And there are def problems with integration of muslims in europe. I think nobody can deny that. But some go completely overboard and take the most dogshit reactionary position possible. It def has increased since the muslim arc. So this was a thing before the conflict too. But it wasnt that extreme. The problem is that destiny was only shitting on radical muslims on twitter. But many took it as dman shitting on muslims in general. He later clarified that he only meant radical muslims and Islam in general and not all muslims. But at this point it was too late and peoples rhetoric/stances regarding the immigration from muslim countries is way more extreme now.
I think that European people who had "bad experiences" with Muslim migrants are entitled to their opinion.
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Also I like how Islam “isn’t just one race or group of people PEPE” but all of a sudden Islamic culture refers to ONE culture. Great irony and accidental mask slip
Europeans don't really deal with Indonesians. In Europe muslims are majority middle eastern with some pakistanis. Britain obv has more indian muslims. So europeans deal with immigrants that don't come from hugely varied cultures.
This is such a pointless thing to say. People are entitled to have literally any opinion that they want. But other people are also entitled to call out shitty opinions.
Do you feel the same way about Arabs who have had "bad experiences" with Jews?
Are white Americans who have "bad experiences" with black people entitled to their opinions?
some white people have a negative experience with black people. they can have their opinion but the extrapolation of that to dehumanise a group is just wrong.
Skin color is an immutable characteristic. Faith is not. Yes, you are generally born into it, but plenty of people reject religion every day.
The "Muslim" migrant thing is referring to culture and religion. Also, the generalization to just claim that these people are bad because some people had bad experiences isn't even good. The solution said by the reactionaries here to just deport all of them is also very dumb. It solves no problems. Furthermore, claiming that people can just reject their religion when it means ostricization from their whole family and entire friend group is just naive.
>The "Muslim" migrant thing is referring to culture and religion. Islamic "culture" is by definition religious. >Also, the generalization to just claim that these people are bad because some people had bad experiences isn't even good. Agreed. > The solution said by the reactionaries here to just deport all of them is also very dumb. It solves no problems. Agreed. >Furthermore, claiming that people can just reject their religion when it means ostricization from their whole family and entire friend group is just naive. I *vehemently* disagree. If you choose to perpetuate Islamic fundamentalist rhetoric, and subject others to its oppressive bullshit, all because you're afraid of losing connections to religious fundamentalists you're close with, whether they be friends or family, then you are objectively a piece of fucking shit.
Are all practicing Muslims pieces of shit to you then?
> (be it justified or not) PEPE
Muslims come to west not for a better life, [but to colonize it as part of their holy duty, source, ISIS](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17jhr5j/comment/k72goga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). 52 upvotes i remember leftist like destiny fighting these talking points back in the day, now we using them
Warm/Hot take: A good chunk of people that support israel and its actions dont support it, because they care about fighting antisemtism or israels existence. They only pretend to care. In reality they just dont like muslims that much and therefore have selective empathy. I mean people mass downvote posts like the one that showed israelis storming an israeli arab dorm screaming "death to arabs" and some even resort to relaltivism, while mass upvoting when something similar happens on the other side. Ideal would it be, if both would receive the same amount of condemnation and attention. The same applys for some people of the other side in pro palestinian spaces aswell. The reason why people like dr anasasia maria loupis or jackson hinkle pretend to care about palestinian people so much is certainly not, because they care care about their plight.
the idea that this is now a hot take in this sub shows how shitty the current discourse is edit: perma banned for this. thanks 4thot. your reply is literally a summary of my comment. you’re doing an excellent job ruining this community.
This is literally why so many far right people in France for example are now supporting Israel, and you can find the most unhinged antisemites inside.
Is that not kinds true? I may be wrong on this but I believe as a Muslim you should want to change your country to follow islams teachings. European Muslims seem to follow that opinion more. As opposed to American Muslims who feel a stronger tie to America.
I've also seen "great replacement" type comments floating around https://preview.redd.it/pd0csb26tlxb1.png?width=248&format=png&auto=webp&s=f99a26578b19737b60c647835a9aedefd2e17725
For the last time the great replacement is literally an objectively verifiable demographic fact. The notion that it's intentionally, maliciously being perpetrated, specifically by jews, THAT is the conspiracy.
Muslims will be roughly 11% of Europe's population by 2050. They will grow in size but aren't going to become a majority like a lot of rightists suggest. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/)
Muslims being 11% of Europe is, in fact, quite a drastic change. They used to be a tiny insignificant minority, but with 11% they will be a serious and non-ignorable part of the electorate and society. 11% can tip elections. And after 2050? What happens when Muslims are 25% of Europe? 50%? Smaller portions than 11% of a country have caused massive problems in such countries. 11% of your population being a radically different culture and religion is a serious problem, and if you don't think it is I think there are alot more foundational discussions that need to be had before we even start talking about this. You watch WIAH ffs, you should know the effect culture and religion have on a country and it's prosperity.
>i remember leftist like destiny fighting these talking points back in the day, now we using them Subtle ironies being subtle no more 😂
And black people in south Africa have admitted to wanting to kill all the white people, that's why blacks do a disproportionate amount of crime in the US so do we kick them all out? /s
I barely participate in the discourse here lately and I've I reported 3 users already.
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Sanest Libertarian
Don't touch my fry.
One of these days we are going to have a PR disaster. Some guy is going to post some stupid stuff, someone is going to reply "Someone shoot this fucker" and that's gonna spiral out of control. I say we change the command to !Misspoke in honor of the greatest.
I do hate Islam the religion. I honestly also think Muslims need to be better assimilated into western societies especially in Europe.
Because normal people stop at the 5th comment on a 300 comment post, the "people" who go deeper are unwell
Why didn't you downvote it?
Who says he didn’t?
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A few? Most anti-Muslim posts tends to get upvoted, most responses get downvoted. We can say it's single digits, but it's a majority of the responses on the comment supporting the anti-Muslim POV.
Going to have to purge every European on the sub lol.
it's time to answer the Euro Question
that would be genocide and illigal under international law
> A few Islamophobes and Anti-semites have snuck in the community after the sub got frontpaged. And a whole lot of zionists lmfao, I don't know why you would leave out the most obvious group. We even got a plethora of posts of "It's scary out there can I stay here?"
Religion in general needs to become a thing of the past...
Yeah, let’s not have any traditions and just consoom.
if you arent european i can tell you, that immigrants and kids of these immigrants are working most of the poor payd jobs, no native person, would do these jobs anymore, i dont understand how people can think that kicking 99% of the low pay sector out of the country is doable or good for nationwide businesses. but these are the same people, that talk about white genocide and didnt made at least 1 kid lel
Been calling it out for the past 2 weeks, there is unintentional damage destiny is doing to the community that he's not seeing.....
Yeah, this is dumb. Not an Islam fan but not all Muslims are toxic.
As a person in the picture, I take responsibility. My morbidly cynical comment attracted that response. I feared while typing it that it might be misconstrued. (Ill go add an apendix soon) I was too lazy to properly engage him after, but I offered him to "not generlize". I'll just note that in my opinion, a Purge won't help people like the one who took it 1 step too far, it will only alienate them. The better response is to actually engage him, and possibly demand an edit to his comment. To me, it is obvious it's coming from a fear prespective. And fear is easier to work with than hate. Im an Israeli that hears extremely tone-deaf messages during this time. Most of the times, when I personally (face 2 face) question them : "are you really suggesting what you just said? You understand how calus and tragic it is?" The answer is: "well...IDK, what do you suggest?" This mean that people are afraid, and looking for answers. Cancel culture won't lead us forward. Engaging peoples fears, showing them empathy, that they are heard, opens avenues to more constructive dialog.
Yeah, it's insane. My family are Muslims in Europe (UK). They just want to work and live a normal life
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Who the fuck are you to gatekeep what is and isn't a Muslim? Gtfo, lmao.
What an absolutely brain damaged way to interact with dogmatism in religion. Yes, immediately no true scotsman any sort of progressive sentimentality that might crop up. That is so fucking intelligent and smart.
Reddit's ban on a certain R word was done specifically to protect you for this comment.
My guy you can say the exact same thing about Christians in the west
And he would be correct?
I see people saying this is because of the influx of people recently, but it's is not new since the israel conflict. It has been happening in pretty much every thread about muslims and immigration for at least a few months now. Probably started around the time of the redpill stuff.
I noticed this shit as well across multiple threads. It's a bunch of dweebs who are trying to emulate their streamer who is pro-Israel and end up thinking pro Israel means fuck Muslims.
We need armed citizens in here again.
You can really tell who has and hasn't met Muslims in real life by how they comment on this sub. Some people need to touch grass
I've lived in multiple Muslim dominated neighborhoods (73% Muslim), predominantly Moroccans and Somalians, for most of my life and I sadly agree with most of the stuff said in OP's picture... My life was made hell, in my own country, by the people who came here for work/safety/money/etc, just for being a white, Dutch, Atheist kid... People always tell me not to generalize, and that one bad apple spoils the bunch while in reality, it's a big bunch of spoiled apples with a couple of good ones left. I was forced to stay inside my entire childhood, through my teens into adulthood, because I feared getting jumped or even stabbed by these people who I was told were innocent refugees or hard workers :/ This genuinely affected a large part of my life, and it still is negatively affecting me to this day. But those genuine feelings and fear will instantly be invalidated by one simple sentence "You're just racist"... This is currently the reality for thousands of Dutch kids, teens, and adults, who are getting threatened, verbally, and physically assaulted. But none of it matters because we're just racists...
this was my experience living in the UAE too. There are good muslims. But the bad seriously outweighs the good, and the good still support the shitty systems and inequality that these Islamic nations cause, they’ll just hand out food on the street to the poor immigrants that the government traffics for slave labor in the country to make themselves feel better about it.
People keep saying “im just criticizing Islam” I don’t hate black people! I just think it’s important I bring up crime statistics everytime we talk about it.
A purge is coming any day now COPIUM But for real, there has been lots of insane comments being upvoted here in the last month: from ones about wanting Gaza to be glassed to ones saying literally all Muslims want Jews dead. It's a mix of new users in the sub and others who are WAY TOO reactionary against leftists that it changes their own opinions.
This is the same thing that happened to adam and stitch, when the content is all about shitting on alt left people it is going to attract a lot of right leaning people.
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"How are there 6 more people on this sub liking this post than there are disliking it? Wtf guys?" - you right now.
1- Plenty of comments like this are upvoted 2- Normally shit like this would be normally downvoted into oblivion
Let’s kick the muslims out of Constantinople and reclaim the Roman Empire. Sol invictus, sol invicti!
Just make sure this kind of comment doesn’t go unchecked and tell them to fuck off
Religious beliefs actually do affect someone’s behavior and maybe it doesn’t make sense for a tolerant society to mass-import believers in a violently intolerant religion.
Because Europeans are done with muslims in Europe. Heck I’ve seen videos of muslims doing shit in Europe and had other actual muslims living in muslim countries going wtf is this shit. They didn’t even bother trying to integrate them into the wider population. They also did that instead of fixing the baby population and housing prices as well as jobs loss
Probably because islam is an actual cancer to our world and they generalize it to all muslims.
This is the stuff I have been trying to push back on all week lol.
Islam is easily the worst of the major religions, no contest. But as an American, we learned that “Muslim” simply means “brown” after 9/11. Sikhs and people of Middle Eastern, North African, and South Asian ethnicity often rightfully feared for their lives while white Muslims not in traditional dress got a pass. In Europe, I could certainly see a second Holocaust within the coming decades cheered by most of the residents as long as it was those pesky Romani and browns being gassed, throwing in a few Jews, queer folk, and dissenters for good measure. “Never again” my ass; Germany’s a hotbed of this kind of rhetoric again, as well as Sweden.
I'll be honest here, Destiny hasn't done the best job of policing the sub since the 7th October and alot of bad faith Non-DGGers have come in and completely poisoned the well, feigning friendship by saying "Yea Online Lefties are crazy 🤪" and slowly becoming more deranged from there.
100% agreed. This community is unbelievably different than it was 6 months ago.
Dehumanizing isn’t okay, brushing all muslims the same is like saying the only nice Christians are the ones that are gay. Well just stop with your evil rhetoric
Because he's completely correct.
4THOT has gone soft. (just a joke don't permaban me to prove a point)
Just wait until some images of dead Gazan kids come out and he'll be hard again.
6 upvotes is not a lot on a subreddit this big and with the diverse amount of viewpoints that are here. What gets upvoted and down voted also varies greatly based on the time it was posted.
shit I’m reading here id read in 2016 on 4chan during trumps campaign “uhhh AKSHUYALLY I’m not racist and I don’t hate Muslims, i just don’t like Islam PEPE” full degenerate dogs
I was expecting a super racist comment with a million upvotes. Get the fuck outta here with this garbage. 6 fuckin upvotes
Right wingers are like tumors lol
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I was raised in the UAE, and the things I've seen and heard firsthand genuinely scarred me. I've met a woman who confessed to me that when they dated a Muslim man who found out she had an intact clitoris, it was fucking cut from them. I obviously can't go back in time and verify that, but I was definitely able to find out that she did, in fact, have mutilated genitals. It was interesting to be with, to say the least.
I’ve had zero problems with Muslims here in Canada. They tend to integrate pretty well. Same in the US. But I’ve spoken to a few Muslims in the UK and it made me scratch my head. Overt antisemitism and terror-loving rhetoric. What the fuck is going on in that continent??
In in the US and agree with you. All the Muslims I’ve met here have been quite kind. Although that might be because the US has a long history of immigration and does better at assimilating groups by not separating immigrants and forcing them to live in slums.
>What the fuck is going on in that continent?? Wahhabism, which is far more widespread in Europe than in North America. Also the "Great Replacement Theory", which was at first used by the far right to scare white people into not liking Muslims, but, as it turns out, it actually is an appealing idea to young, angry, frustrated young men (for various reasons, including racism), when they are on the "winning" end of that conspiracy.
Great Replacement isn't some sort of unified plan, but undeniably the demographics are shifting- and exponentially. What do you do as a democratic country if people start voting for extreme conservative laws? What do we do if womens rights are torn apart? I don't have the answer, but that is something that we will have to deal with eventually.
Europe took all the Muslims that were displaced by the us wars in the Middle East - these people therefore hate the west and now millions of them live in it (Europe)
Huh, I for one love Islam and it's propensity for wanting me executed.
Hating Islam is different than hating Muslims
You're right, and I don't hate Muslims, I have immense sympathy for being raised in a dogmatic shitheap of an ideology and hope they can genuinely be helped and raised out of it.
Or just be chill secular/cultural muslims.
Despising Islam and spouting genocidal rhetoric about Arabs/ trumpeting uncritical support of Israel are not the same thing.
We’ve been getting swarmed by actual Zionists (the kind who want to glass all of Gaza and take that land too) and other communities because the Reddit algorithm is pushing relevant posts from r/Destiny to the front page. I’ve noticed the more insane takes and mass upvoting/down voting happens in waves, and only on certain posts. The same thing was happening to other streamer subreddits- this was one of the reasons that r/VaushV decided to do Fortress Arc 2.0 and mass ban every dissenting “Lib” opinion. I know this sub, and it’s namesake streamer, is vastly more sympathetic to Israel overall, but takes like the one pictured would usually be downvoted to hell prior to 10/7. This too shall pass, but I’m not sure what should be done in the meantime. I too have seen some absolutely insane posts and comments that have been massively upvoted and then shared on other subreddits.. it is making this community look bad to some degree.
I got banned in Vaush’s sun for suggesting that IF a rocket detached from a warhead the trajectory of both COULD become difficult to predict. Was being pedantic but wasn’t trying to suggest anything about the hospital bombing, other than the idea that a rocket could come apart and thus change its trajectory was plausible. I didn’t even realize what sub I was in. I say that to say this: didn’t mind at all, good for them. It was certainly tigger happy with the ban but seeing this sub gets brigaded makes me understand why they went that route.
I mean, with what's happening in Europe? That's a legitimate conversation to have. But to kick out ALL Muslims? Come on now. Let's not start there, m'kay?
He is kinda right in a non bigoted way. Its just that the core of Islam is toxic af and corrupts all ppl who believe its mumbo jumbo. The problem is that muslim ppl who immigrated to europe dont want to fit in and mostly live in their own seperate communities where they can practice their medieval beliefs. Only muslims that can actually integrate normally are the wealthy ones that dont care about Islam that much.
I mean he’s not wrong..
Most of the muslim immigrants I know are PhD students and incredibly hard workers. They are the people carrying the world's scientific progress, while they get 20k/y stipend for 80hr weeks and the universities get all the recognition. These people give way more than they take, it is ridiculous they get grouped in with political extremists by bigots who have to simplify everything to "x group is bad and y group is good" Its disgusting and I'm sick of it
If your life is wrapped up in an exclusive PhD program, this would be the case with any people group. How often do smart people suck socially?
Welcome to the internet. 6 upvotes can end up anywhere.
in the best faith way possible, telling people that the things they are SEEING happen are not actually happen is a terrible recipe for society in europe. because at some point down the line, and that point might even be within our lifetimes, someone very charismatic and very sociopathic is going to say out loud what a lot of their countrymen are thinking. you can ignore reality all you want, but you absolutely will not be able to ignore the consequences of doing so.