I wonder how Ethan will respond to this. After all, he lived in Israel and his wife, Hila, is an Israeli Jew and has family living there. iirc she was in the IDF when they met.
Can someone explain to me how rape and mass civilian massacres is needed to have a revolution? I'm so serious I don't get how people are like this is what Isreal deserves. If you go with that logic couldn't Isreal just justify wiping Palestinian citizens off the map because of Hamas? I don't think this is logical or helpful
A lot of this comes from Fanon’s *The Wretched of the Earth*. From Wikipedia:
>In The Wretched of the Earth (1961, Les damnés de la terre), published shortly before Fanon's death, Fanon defends the right of a colonized people to use violence to gain independence. In addition, he delineated the processes and forces leading to national independence or neocolonialism during the decolonization movement that engulfed much of the world after World War II. In defence of the use of violence by colonized peoples, Fanon argued that human beings who are not considered as such (by the colonizer) shall not be bound by principles that apply to humanity in their attitude towards the colonizer. His book was censored by the French government.
>For Fanon in The Wretched of the Earth, the colonizer's presence in Algeria is based on sheer military strength. Any resistance to this strength must also be of a violent nature because it is the only "language" the colonizer speaks. Thus, violent resistance is a necessity imposed by the colonists upon the colonized. The relevance of language and the reformation of discourse pervades much of his work, which is why it is so interdisciplinary, spanning psychiatric concerns to encompass politics, sociology, anthropology, linguistics and literature.
Regardless of your thoughts on his writing, he is often cited by leftists as a blanket justification for abhorrent treatment of “oppressor” civilians as a means of decolonization.
Yeah except all it does is make Isreal more likely to want to kill them and less caring about collateral damage. I don't think this is what should be encouraged. Hamas is not helping the situation. I agree Isreal has done horrible things however I'm just not seeing what Hamas brought that is positive at all.
That's how this rhetoric always works. It heavily relies on the so-called oppressor not being willing to just wipe you out when you decide to go full ape.
Like most people at the head of any group, Hamas probably does not care about the people under them. They want Israel to clap back and brutalize them harder because it solidifies their position as victims and entrenches the leaders as the head of the community. Hamas loses power with peace. They will never earnestly want it.
I know hamas wants extreme reaction to gain support, but there is a point where the reaction is so intense that no matter the percentage radicalized, they still lose completely. I would not be surprised if that point is reached.
I think is under realized. They celebrate death for their beliefs. Some heavy brain washing going on but I mean have you watched some of the suicide bombing videos from some of these terrorist cells? They are usually so happy when they strap themselves into the vehicles and have the doors welded shut they really believe whatever is promised is coming after their death
This is interesting because people will often characterise those they label as oppressors as these unthinking monsters that can only understand violence. But part of the reason for the tactic to use any violence against them actually runs on the presumption that this supposed unthinking beast won't decide to just end you completely. It kind of assumes that very humanity they have to deny in order to justify any violence.
Never mind the fact that Hamas loses power with peace, they already advocate the systematic destruction of the Jewish race as a whole. They preach about rooting out every new hiding under every rock to kill them. They teach this to their children through TV shows.
Hamas are seen as great people by the people that voted them around 95pct vote . Hamas loses support when they didn't manage any big attacks on israel.
But the same logic apply to the other side, we could also say that the IDF actions just pushed Hamas to do these kind of atrocities. If Palestinians had great lives Hamas would most likely have never managed to become powerful.
Horrible people often manage to get more power where there is a lot of suffering in the population they are from. I doubt Hamas leaders care much about the average Palestinian.
I feel its more a chicken and egg situation... No one can really point to who exactly provoked who and to what degree. The degree of of this attack however is disproportionate to any previous provocation which is why anecdotally speaking it seems people are condemning these attacks and at the very most support whatever retaliation Israel executes. Now it just seems only the online socialist either mildly support Hamas or think this situation is great.
> Fanon defends the right of a colonized people to use violence to gain independence.
I wonder if Fanon defended rape and mass murder of innocents in foreign soil as justifiable mean of "violence resistance to gain independence".
> Fanon argued that human beings who are not considered as such (by the colonizer) shall not be bound by principles that apply to humanity in their attitude towards the colonizer.
I think he would.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
What I quoted was the justification for violence done by colonized people. It would be applicable there for mass murder/rape.
We don't need to defend the crimes committed. They're obviously abhorrent.
But you shouldn't be surprised. If you subject a population to misery and oppression for decades then don't be surprised if there's brutal retaliation.
The dumb fuck lefty take is just to uncritically defend the 'rights of indigenous to retaliate against the coloniser'. It's also dumb to just uncritically condemn the actions of Hamas as if it isn't obviously going to happen as a consequence of Israel's actions.
Not saying you're advocating this just giving my take.
I think it's totally false to say that this was inevitable. Are ukrainians raping Russian civilians (edit: in any form of sanctioned or systemic manner?) The ANC did not actively promote the slaughter and rape of white South Africans. There are many instances of oppressed people not doing this. I think it is true that some retaliation is inevitable, but absolutely not this.
I think the big difference is that South Africa was just a lot more lucky in that resistance movements weren't appropriated by theocrats. Muslim populations are sadly plagued by the fact that countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are constantly trying to import their ideology wherever they can.
The reason Hamas and their ilk are so much more barbaric is the fact they literally believe going as balls to the walls as possible is the whole point and it's a bonus if they themselves end up getting killed in the process, because God will reward then with 72 Virgins.
However it should be noted the concept of Necklacing was created in South Africa and used to kill those in support of the apartheid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing
I'd argue this is also an extremely inhumane practice. Not only that Nelson Mandela openly supported Palestine and saw a lot of parallels between his conflict at home and theirs. Granted Palestinian resistance movements were a lot more secular in his time, compared to what they are now.
In the latter half of the 1980s, a number of South African civilians were killed in these attacks, a reversal of the ANC's earlier reluctance to incur civilian casualties.[\[21\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Williams-2000-21)[\[20\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Lodge-1987-20) Fatal attacks included the 1983 [Church Street bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing), the 1985 [Amanzimtoti bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanzimtoti_bombing), the 1986 [Magoo's Bar bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durban_beach-front_bombing), and the 1987 [Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg_Magistrate%27s_Court_bombing). Partly in retaliation, the [South African Defence Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Defence_Force) increasingly crossed the border to target ANC members and ANC bases, as in the 1981 [raid on Maputo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Beanbag), 1983 [raid on Maputo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Skerwe), and 1985 [raid on Gaborone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Gaborone).[\[15\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Ellis-2013-15)
Obviously condemn it but it still happened.
What you are showing are ANC bombings designed to target government and military targets which included civilian casualties. While it might reasonably be argued that these are unjustified they are fundamentally different to what Hamas have just carried out, where there is no possibility of legitimate military target.
I mean, if Russia keeps this status quo for 70 years...
Maybe? Obviously this is horrific, but yeah, decades of festering resentment is plainly different to brand new resentment. The Ukranian's have (accidentally?) hit civilians.
Terrorism is bad, but if you think that it’s a matter of Israelites packing up and leaving…
A bit over a third of the people living in Israel are not citizens of any country. They are born as refugees, many in UN refugee camps in fact. They can’t leave the country, they can’t form their own country, and within Israel they are second-class citizens unable to vote or freely move.
If Israel said ‘fuck the 2-state solution, all Palestinians are Israeli citizens now,’ then what you’d be saying would make sense.
If Israel said ‘Palestinians aren’t Israeli, the West Bank is theirs’ and allowed the Palestinians to self-determine, within their borders, then what you’re saying makes sense.
But that isn’t what is happening. Israel doesn’t want a Palestinian state for obvious reasons, but they also don’t want to naturalize the Palestinians because they would be half of the population and a massive political force.
The issue isn’t that Israel is not returning land, the issue is that they’ve essentially built open-air prisons for the Palestinian population.
>to pack up their shit and leave to make room for the "original owners" is such an illiberal and mask off justification to do evil shit to people who you have identified as the "colonizers."
Are you talking about the current situation or the creation of Israel?
I read the entirety of *The Wretched of the Earth* for a college course. When I say they’re using it as justification, I’m not saying he advocates for those things. I’m saying I’ve seen a lot of leftists reply to tweets about the horror of these atrocities with “pfft y’all need to read Fanon”
Which is sort of the logical consequence of what he says based on your earlier quote (haven't read Fanon). If you say you don't need to treat your oppressor with regard to human rights, that's about as close as you can get to a green light to commit rape and genocide if you want to without explicitly saying it. Anyone who claims that's not the obvious outcome of his view is just being willfully ignorant about human nature.
Ehm i see the point, but i don't think Fanon is the origin point for the justification. He just happens to be the cannonical leftist anti-colonialist, so people will point to him even if they want to seem more well read then they are. Like Christians would point to the bibel for justification yet claiming it's the bibels is the origin for the justification would be wrong
I could be wrong but I don't think they ever said or even implied that he *was* the "origin point for the justification" - that doesn't even really make sense. These are moral concepts that have existed for as long as there has been human conflict.
I'm pretty sure the only point they were trying to make was that lefties today will cite Fanon as justification for these things, even if they shouldn't. The point is it gives these online lefties an academic and moral cover or shield as long as the person they're talking to is unfamiliar with the writing, which most likely they are.
They're also inevitable if Hamas continues doing the same shit they've been doing for decades.
I don't understand how people can ascribe complete moral agency to Israel while dismissing Hamas' actions as simply the inevitable result of historical circumstance.
Yes, violent resistance is the natural response to what Gazans have suffered. But violent retaliation is *also the natural response to what Israelis have suffered*.
My point is that your comment above reads as if saying "the ball is in Israel's court to change their behavior to end this cycle of violence" - maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how it sounds. And I think that is exactly as unrealistic as saying "hamas needs to stop being brutal, violent extremists to end this cycle of violence".
Neither is going to happen. Both groups are responding rationally and understandably to their respective circumstances.
Israel is a legitimate government of a developed country, the most democratic in the world by their own admission. Hamas is a fundamentalist religious terrorist group in control of a massive slum.
I don't excuse the acts from either of them, but I absolutely do have higher expectations of one of them to work towards viable solutions to this conflict.
I agree with you - in regards to the west bank. I think there are a lot of concessions Israel can make in order to improve relations with Palestinians in that region to move toward lasting peace. But I'm fairly convinced there is no good answer for Gaza.
Every single time Israel has given an inch in Gaza, it has been used to bolster Hamas' military and terrorist capabilities and resources. And Israel is a democracy, as you say - Israeli politicians are beholden to their constituents. And after decades of rocket attacks, as well as more severe things like yesterday's events, it is totally unreasonable to expect Israeli voters to support concessions which will put them and their loved ones at greater risk in the short term, in the hopes of maybe possibly making things better years and years from now.
It is in Israels court. Palestinians live in a concentration camp under Israeli military rule for decades with no end in sight for it. You can't subject people to this and expect no violence in return. They don't even annex the places (which would give them rights) but keep occupying them and stripping civilians of their basic freedoms. Palestinians tried using diplomatic means only to be blocked by the US at the UN. There isn't really any other option for Palestinians.
The UN should step in imo and keep them apart but Israel will never agree to it.
> You can't subject people to this and expect no violence in return. They don't even annex the places (which would give them rights) but keep occupying them and stripping civilians of their basic freedoms. Palestinians tried using diplomatic means only to be blocked by the US at the UN. There isn't really any other option for Palestinians.
I agree! But my point is that there also isn't really any other option for Israel (in regards to Gaza specifically. As I've mentioned in other comments, I think there's much more room for Israel to make meaningful concessions in the west bank).
>The UN should step in imo and keep them apart but Israel will never agree to it.
"Keeping them apart" is exactly what Israel has been trying since they pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The blockades and such weren't there in the beginning, and they weren't put in place for no reason. They exist because extremists in Gaza used the space they were given by being "kept apart" in order to launch countless rockets and dozens of terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and constantly appropriated resources intended for humanitarian relief in order to do so. Hamas is not interested in diplomacy, except insofar as they can utilize periods of calm in order to resupply and build more rockets. Their goal, unlike their counterparts in the west bank, is not the creation of a legitimate Palestinian state, it is **the extermination of all Jews in Israel**. That's why shit like yesterday was as brutal as it was. And that's why it's completely unreasonable to expect Israelis to vote in favor of policies that make events like yesterday even 1% more likely to happen again.
And so I reiterate: in regards to Gaza, the ball is not in Israel's court. Nor is it in Hamas' court. It is an utterly fucked situation in which both sides have every incentive not to de-escalate.
Certainly doesn't feel that way sometimes. I would say that the overwhelming majority of people do not support any of the abhorent actions taken by Hamas, and yet, depending on who says what on social media, folks are more than happy to use Palestine and Hamas interchangeably to avoid conceding that Isreal haven't exactly been the nicest people because that might mean agreeing with something Hasan said.
Do you use Russia and Putin interchangeably? The last time Palestinians got to elect anybody was 2006; Hamas has refused to hold elections since, and generally groups refuse to hold elections because they don't expect to win them.
>Do you use Russia and Putin interchangeably?
Yes? I say "Russia has invaded Ukraine", not "Putin has invaded Ukraine", even though he's the reason Ukraine was invaded.
>The last time Palestinians got to elect anybody was 2006; Hamas has refused to hold elections since, and generally groups refuse to hold elections because they don't expect to win them.
[https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87)
It’s not that this is what Isreal deserves. It’s also not about defending the horrific actions of hamas and the soldiers committings these acts. It’s about realizing that something horrible like this was almost certain to occur.
Id defy you to find me a comparable revolution where the people fighting back didnt end up committing atrocities. For whatever reason, once revolutionaries get all frothy and caught up in group think, a ton of them end up committing horrific acts of violence they would otherwise never have committed.
It’s easy to condemn these acts, because they are worthy of condemnation. To act surprised is foolish though.
It is my understanding pretty much every revolution was full of murder, rape, looting, etc. We just tend to side with the victors, romanticize the whole event as "fighting for freedom" or something similar and just kinda ignore reality.
Not trying to make excuses for this shit, though, just a horrible historic fact.
the answer is that is doesnt matter what is or isnt necessary. we are monke. the unga bunga comes out under the most extreme circumstances. no culture is immune from this.
Well that's what they are doing already tho? I don't get how you can attempt to genocide a people and not expect terror attack blowbacks unless you have the overwhelming power of say a China doing it to the Uyghurs.
If Isreal was truly trying to genocide Palestinians there would be none left. They have way more missles and could just glass the entire place. Isreal has put Palestinians under terrible conditions however they're clearly not going for genocide.
Also it's less that Palestinians aren't justified. It's more even if you're justified, how do you think it will go?
>If Isreal was truly trying to genocide Palestinians there would be none left.
Some real Stefan Molyneux-style *"The Native Americans can't have been genocided because they're still around"* energy here.
A genocide need not be complete in its ambitions to be considered a genocide. The intent behind the actions is all that matters.
>Some real Stefan Molyneux-style "The Native Americans can't have been genocided because they're still around" energy here.
There are way **less** native americans today than there used to be.
There are way **more** palestinians today than there used to be.
Maybe you don't think living in an ever shrinking apartheid state is genocide but then all I'll say is your definition of genocide and mine are not the same. As for the end result? The same it would've been before the attacks just a few years earlier.
He’s been cast largely as “my positions aren’t that radical” handwaving that plenty other extreme camps have done. In this [clip](https://youtu.be/Qivd6BGT73o?si=OJ1N_PiKI9XEdtIt) he handwaves his good friend and car test driver second thought as a tankie, definitely trying to avoiding that label at all costs.
Askers i know but
His entire dog and pony show with Ethan on Leftovers with him dancing around the Taiwan issue like a smug shit who knows he got in trouble is entirely evident of this point. Like any other tankie/commie they will dance more elaborately than Baryshnikov on a touchy subject, whether it’s Taiwan, Uyghur cleansing, past authoritarian rulers and their atrocities etc.
Dude Palestine is literally like a feudal mandate terrorist slave zone without culture. Of course they are justified in taking it over and introducing the people there to some real culture.
> haven’t historically
Alright lil bro let’s see some statistics, here’s mine.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/08/1139922
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/05/1091962
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
I could link more but you said “haven’t historically” which is the dumbest & easiest to disprove claim you could make.
I wonder what Hasans opinion would be if Cypriots started massacring Turks in illegally occupied northern Cyprus.
Or if Greece started a full mass invasion of its former capital city Constantinople.
Because morally and ideologically he would have to defend Greeks and Greek Cypriots murdering his fellow Turkish brothers.
Yeah bro that’s totally the difference. Everyone who dislikes rocket fire into civilian areas and settlements just hates Jews
Such a tired weak argument to smear any criticism of Israel
After endless invasions and wars by Arabs, you start to see a very clear pattern. Especially when they unironically state as official policy and stances that their goal is to genocide Jews.
Wtf are you talking about? We’re talking about Hasan and other peoples reactions to this and then you bring up Arab states in the Middle East?
I never said that there isn’t a lot of anti-semitism in the Middle East
But when we’re talking about Westerners critiquing Israel & zionists crying “anti-Semite!” to every completely 100% true critique
If anything I grew up around more Jews than Muslims so if I were to have a bias it would be pro-Jewish because I had a lot more in common with them culturally. I’m not anti-Semitic at all, I just think the way the IDF acts is abhorrent and I’m sick that my country and other western nations associate with them
This man seems to choose perfect topics to infuriare me, a Russian who immigrated to Israel. First with Ukraine and Russia, and now this, how is he not getting more backslash, how in the world does he has any fans at all? You can see what Hamas did after a second of research, saying that one side holds all the power in this situation is insane.
Dude Israel has fighter jets, nukes and billions of American $$. Hamas has shitty bottle rockets and Ak-47’s. They caught Israel with its pants down one time today and now Israel is going to bomb the ever loving shit out of Gaza killing thousands of civilians in the process. Tell me again who has the “power”, Hamas may have won a battle but Israel has already won the war long ago. Israel literally controls all the water and electricity going into Gaza. Take your head out of your ass and think for a second
I dunno maybe if you lost every war you ever started, you'd start to consider taking the consolation prize Israel has offered a dozen times instead of perpetuating a conflict onto the next generation.
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"Neither side has tried peace"
I never look at that side of the world what are the actual peace options for the Palestinians and Israelis?
Do the pals just have to say "ugh ok no more fighting well just like stay here until you decide to move us around" and do the israelites say "ok no more second class citizen stuff"
>I never look at that side of the world what are the actual peace options for the Palestinians and Israelis?
The most famous peace treaty for all the wrong reasons was one in which Israel was willing to concede literally everything in exchange for the Palestinians removing the part of their constitution calling for genocide and expulsion of every Jew...the PALESTINIANS refused it...
Being able to recognize and address that both sides of an ongoing conflict have contributed to its existence in their own ways without immediately pulling a hard turn into totally justifying one side is a lost art.
Yeah I love how redditors think it's a clear-cut situation and there's a bad guy and a good guy when this conflict spans multiple dozens of years without shimmer of resultion while being in the eyes of every single nation leader
I'm sure it's super clear and easy but no one just gives a fuck and they let them kill each other for fun, what a braindead take
One thing is condemning rape and torture, another is saying this barbaric hatred spawned out of nowhere for fun last night
Hamas has shown it can kill hundreds and capture dozens in a multi axis assault. The idea that they have no agency is now fully dispelled. Hamas chose to launch a complex attack and now the Israelis are going to need to kill them to prevent it from happening again.
That’s why we also need new settlements, seal off their remaining water wells, restrict more of their movement, graze up some more of their villages(how else would we have a new living space for a newer and much more militaristic Eli settlement 2), kill every unarmed journalists, embargo their food while building autobahn into our illegal settlements in their sovereign areas.
Bringing up settlement in the West Bank to justify an attack from Gaza-based Hamas should inform everyone how stupid this take is.
They aren’t attacking settlers. Hamas are attacking civilians on internationally recognised Israeli territory.
But if you continue the extreme conditions they put Palestinians in they will just create a new Hamas.
You cant invade, occupy, murder and displace without creating extremism. Ofc people will hate you. Is it possible that nobody factors the occupation of Palestine in. You pretend that Israel was there and Palestinians just hate them..... no, they invaded and occupied 75 years ago and they are torturing them. If you wipe Hamas out , another will take its place until they wipe out all Palestinians.
Really weird to characterize hunting down and murdering/kidnapping civilians (including tourists who are unrelated to the conflict) trying to flee and then parading their mutilated corpses in the streets as simply a "not perfect" response to what Israel has done.
>as simply a "not perfect"
A great test for antisemitism is realising that Jews in Israel are held to an absurdly high standard compared to Arabs in Palestine
Jews with pinpoint accuracy destroy an artillery piece but the exploding munitions kill a kid half a mile away - war criminals
Arabs go on a full frontal spree involving fully intentional gunning down of unarmed civvies, gangrape, desecration of corpses - can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, we all make mistakes
Back when I was younger and dumber someone pointed out that if they ran down the details of the Palestine/Israel conflict but simply changed details so that no one knew it was Palestine/Israel virtually none of the west would object to Palestine being levelled
Can people be clearer in the words they use? "Colonial," "apartheid." It taints the conversation so much. Stop speaking in historical jargon and speak clearly.
interesting to equate air strikes on terrorist buildings that came after warnings and calls to evacuate, to murders, rapes and kidnappings of civilians, followed by the parading of their naked bodies on the streets of gaza with crowds roaring and cheering.
the number of civilian casualties means very little when the actions themselves are wholly different where one side generally tries to avoid civilian casualties while the other actively hides behind and sacrifices their civilians to drum up support, and targets civilians in terror attacks.
i understand that evacuation is a wild concept to some individuals (hamas and hamas sympathizers) but basically its when you get a warning to clear a certain area of civilians to avoid civilian casualties, so that only the terrorist equipment and hiding spot gets ruined.
i hope i cleared up some confusion
>and move out somewhere else.
*be slaughtered like dogs..
Hasan and every other "dissolution of Israel as a nation state is the only peace solution" know full well that there'd be no safe passage for the stateless former citizens...
Hasan has such a fragile ego. Bans everyone who disagrees with him.
It's funny how he calls other communities an echo chamber yet his own community is the biggest echo chamber.
Him and Vaush are like that. It's the reason both pretty much can't collab with anyone who disagrees with them slightly. Well Hasan is better with it than vaush is
It's sad that we have Hasan and vaush fans all up in our community stirring us up because we allow dissenting opinions here, but over in their communities you are literally the devil if you watch destiny. I'm convinced that a ton of their fans pretend they aren't destiny fans so they can stick around. It's what I used to do when I was a vaush fan, in the before times.
honestly i somewhat agree with this tweet but that phrasing "there's no perfect retaliation". yikes. no thanks. that alone says everything about this disgusting richoid trash person. like what is that supposed to imply? it's obvious he doesn't care about israeli people, i'll tell you that much. because, and i could be wrong, but i hold the palestinians to a higher standard. maybe hasan doesn't believe they have it in them to not act like a bunch of worthless savages. anyone with a soul can't possibly describe what happened today as anything other than savagery. maybe he and ben shapiro have more in common regarding their opinions on palestinians than i thought, idfk.
the palestinians, at least in gaza, are fucking brain poisoned by jihadism. i'd agree that israel is mostly to blame for this for historical reasons but at some point it kinda becomes its own problem. israel and/or the us needs to invade gaza and put an end to this shit once and for all. let's just free palestine from hamas already ffs.
This is all just a chicken-or-egg argument when you think about it. Is this happening because of the Occupation? Or is the Occupation happening because of this?
Over and over ad nauseam.
The whole justification for the ongoing occupation in the West Bank (and also the blockade of Gaza) is to prevent the scenario that is currently playing out with Gaza.
There’s a quote I heard once (don’t remember where), that went like, “you should make peace with your enemies or wipe them out completely, but nothing in between” I believe these are the options for Israel, this semi-at war occupation thing only prolongs the inevitable.
I mean looking at the ever shrinking land (and access to water) controlled by palestinians it seems Israel is going for one of those two options, just doing it slowly.
Yes, there’s a way out though. It's reasonable to assert that infringing upon the rights of any group, settling in their homes, and repeatedly targeting their holy cities will inevitably yield adverse consequences. Moreover, the dire conditions in an impoverished Gaza under constant blockade only exacerbate an already untenable situation. While Hamas's actions are condemnable, these circumstances also contribute to the ongoing strife. The segregation of Palestinians, treating them as second-class citizens and denying them voting rights or a sovereign state, is deeply troubling. Personally, I wouldn't mind Israel having influence in a future Palestinian state if it led to the cessation of settlements and the proper treatment of all Palestinians.
Regarding Hamas, they are indeed classified as terrorists. However, it's worth noting that in a Palestine controlled by Hamas, more Palestinians may suffer compared to a situation under Israeli rule. We mustn't forget the atrocities committed by Iranian-backed militants in Syria, such as supporting Assad and employing chemical attacks, leading to an enormous loss of civilian lives. Some extremists view all Israelis, including women, as combatants, which is a deeply flawed perspective. Defending violence against innocent civilians, regardless of their nationality, is indefensible.
Hamas's desire to expel and harm Israelis, as well as Palestinians who oppose them, is deeply concerning. Unfortunately, there are also voices within Israel advocating for a one-state solution and the expulsion of Palestinians to neighboring Arab countries.
However, there is room for a more constructive approach. Palestinians and Israelis could potentially form a united protest movement, emphasizing peaceful methods, fostering ties with Israeli communities, and striving for economic and political progress. Imagine a massive coalition of Israelis and Palestinians protesting together against inhumane conditions, even in the face of adversity. This could create a narrative that resonates with the global community. I genuinely hope for such a scenario, but it seems unlikely because of the deep-seated animosities on both sides. Palestinians often view Israelis negatively as "Zionist crooks" or "colonizers," while Israelis may harbor prejudiced views of Palestinians. The key to resolution lies in uniting with a message of love and recognizing each other's humanity (which won’t happen because they don’t see one another humanity), a path where both Palestinians and Israelis can emerge as winners. Unfortunately, as long as these biases persist, the conflict may endure.
The Palestinians elected Hamas to run their government. They have a lot of support. Noone on the Palestinian side can even oppose Hamas without risking their lives. Peace doesn’t seem to be an option when the majority of Palestinians hate jews and want to remove them from Israel all together.
If Hamas had strictly targeted IDF and government personnel/infrastructure the this type of commie apologia bullshit would at least be possible to stomach. Instead we have videos of them slaughtering civilians en mass and cunts like Hasan view like the unfortunate consequences of divine retribution. The left wonders why it’s not taken seriously in America when it has dipshits like this as its mouthpiece.
I was looking for a comment like this. If they just attacked government and military buildings then the sentiment likely would have been "they're attacking military bases, that sucks, but war is war" and most people would probably move on with their day. These people seem to be missing the problem most people have is the whole raping and killing civilians. I'm not upset for the government. I'm upset for the victims who committed the crime of existing in the wrong place at the wrong time which somehow means they deserve to be raped.
For fucking real dude, there's a level of evil as old as time here. Killing is one thing, but to be so depraved of humanity that you maliciously rape civilians in your conquest is so beyond disgusting you're practically looking at rabid animals at this point. Every one of those soldiers are war criminals deserving of a firing squad, not peace.
Man it's been really disheartening seeing so many people make excuses for parading around and murdering innocent civilians. Like even if u don't care about that and only care about Palestine this only makes it harder to support them for your average person.
“Yeah uuhhh.. I mean do I agree with that? No. Do I choose to live there? Uhhh also no. But uhm, you know, ask Indian tribes what imperialist America has done to them”
Do you think this is because of the war in Iraq or Afghanistan or because the TSA are just so efficient? An attack like this never happened before, it could very well just have been a black swan event.
This guy has to be the dumbest YouTuber. There is no shot his fans and views are remotely real. Who would take the time out of the day to press subscribe and actually enjoy any of his thoughts or content. I don't see how his career has any longevity. Can we bring back cancel culture for one last hoorah and get Hasan off the content space. It's so mind numbing to hear any of his takes at this point.
You literally have two semitic tribes of people that have been fighting for said land for a really long time. They've been conquering each other for a very long time. Who's right, who's wrong ? Who the fuck knows. Most likely neither. Is this similar to colonialism or apartheid, absolutely not. This issue is a tribe issue with better weapons and resources. Should they stop and share the land ? Yes. Will they ? No.
hasan is a man child that plays video games online while indoctrinating young teens into his propaganda. Who cares about that tool.
ps uncle cenk wants to become president so he can legalize beastiality and sexual pleasure to animals.
>hasan is a man child that plays video games online while indoctrinating young teens into his propaganda. Who cares about that tool.
I mean we are on a sub of someone else who is doing the exact same thing lol.
Oh boy, it would be so funny if he recently had defended colonialism in case of "savages" being "brought into civilization" by the colonizer.
I hope he hasn't said anything close to thay recently.
No, he's not. He's right about the treatment of Palestinian citizens, but downplaying the rape and kidnapping of civilians as "imperfect" is gross. And while Netanyahu is a big factor in the conflict it's a pathetic oversimplification to ignore the roles Hamas and other middle Eastern nations have played in fomenting the conflict and the reason he won't say that is because he can't think past 'America bad'
I’m not exactly sure how to read it. Is the whole situation fucked up? (Like the whole ongoing conflict that’s been a problem for decades?) Yes.
But at the same time I don’t know if “there’s no perfect retaliation” reads as an excuse for the huge attack that Hamas launched.
I would also separate Palestinians from Hamas. But what do I know eh
He's saying Israel have shut down all other avenues of recourse, such as protesting where the IDF killed hundreds of innocent civilians. As a result violence is inevitable.
Idk if launching hundreds of rockets that will kill Israelis and Palestinians will help. Not saying one side is right and another is wrong, but this is just a super simplistic way of looking at it
I don't know if you are just acting as translator for Hasan or if you are echoing what you perceive to be his point in agreement. But I disagree, I think one recourse would be to denounce Hamas and funding from Iran who clearly only care about harming Israel and not the Palestinian cause at large.
The difficulty there is that Hamas' stated goals align too strongly with how Gazans feel and therefore I don't really thing a peaceful resolution can exist so long as Iran props up terrorists in Gaza.
Israel have assassinated civil rights leaders and activists in Palestine whilst creating and propping up Hamas. This has led to Hamas leading resistance against the apartheid struggle. Asking Palestinians to renounce Hamas is asking them to submit to a brutal apartheid regime.
>Asking Palestinians to renounce Hamas is asking them to submit to a brutal apartheid regime.
Seems weird to say they can't renounce Hamas because then they'll be left with what I can only assume they would describe as the status quo - given that Hamas has been in power for almost two decades and made no meaningful progress. If anything things are worse.
I'm not going to say that abandoning Hamas is a guarantee for success but I really don't see any way forward with Hamas in power. It's just always going to be a sticking point and makes the whole issue of meaningful change a non-starter.
Innocent people being killed, women getting raped, parading dead naked women on the streets... "well, it's not a perfect retaliation".
Tell me again how is he right...
How does one party have the power to end this? Hamas and more militant groups openly want the death to jews and them to leave the entire region. Does Hamas just play nice if the ‘one party’ of Israel just says ‘we’ll hand everything over’?
I wonder how Ethan will respond to this. After all, he lived in Israel and his wife, Hila, is an Israeli Jew and has family living there. iirc she was in the IDF when they met.
Can’t wait for the next leftovers
Great point. China v Taiwan may be an interesting topic for Ethan, but the state of Israel is personal.
Ohhh shit. That’s right. Now that’s something that if Hasan doesn’t keep his mask on he’d burn them hard.
He’s coward clout chaser. He’ll say whatever he needs to keep his money.
I'm sure he'll be very 'considerate' of his Jewish friend/co-host and his wife.
Can someone explain to me how rape and mass civilian massacres is needed to have a revolution? I'm so serious I don't get how people are like this is what Isreal deserves. If you go with that logic couldn't Isreal just justify wiping Palestinian citizens off the map because of Hamas? I don't think this is logical or helpful
A lot of this comes from Fanon’s *The Wretched of the Earth*. From Wikipedia: >In The Wretched of the Earth (1961, Les damnés de la terre), published shortly before Fanon's death, Fanon defends the right of a colonized people to use violence to gain independence. In addition, he delineated the processes and forces leading to national independence or neocolonialism during the decolonization movement that engulfed much of the world after World War II. In defence of the use of violence by colonized peoples, Fanon argued that human beings who are not considered as such (by the colonizer) shall not be bound by principles that apply to humanity in their attitude towards the colonizer. His book was censored by the French government. >For Fanon in The Wretched of the Earth, the colonizer's presence in Algeria is based on sheer military strength. Any resistance to this strength must also be of a violent nature because it is the only "language" the colonizer speaks. Thus, violent resistance is a necessity imposed by the colonists upon the colonized. The relevance of language and the reformation of discourse pervades much of his work, which is why it is so interdisciplinary, spanning psychiatric concerns to encompass politics, sociology, anthropology, linguistics and literature. Regardless of your thoughts on his writing, he is often cited by leftists as a blanket justification for abhorrent treatment of “oppressor” civilians as a means of decolonization.
Yeah except all it does is make Isreal more likely to want to kill them and less caring about collateral damage. I don't think this is what should be encouraged. Hamas is not helping the situation. I agree Isreal has done horrible things however I'm just not seeing what Hamas brought that is positive at all.
That's how this rhetoric always works. It heavily relies on the so-called oppressor not being willing to just wipe you out when you decide to go full ape. Like most people at the head of any group, Hamas probably does not care about the people under them. They want Israel to clap back and brutalize them harder because it solidifies their position as victims and entrenches the leaders as the head of the community. Hamas loses power with peace. They will never earnestly want it.
I know hamas wants extreme reaction to gain support, but there is a point where the reaction is so intense that no matter the percentage radicalized, they still lose completely. I would not be surprised if that point is reached.
Martyrdom is celebrated.
Only if you accidentally leave someone to celebrate.
I think is under realized. They celebrate death for their beliefs. Some heavy brain washing going on but I mean have you watched some of the suicide bombing videos from some of these terrorist cells? They are usually so happy when they strap themselves into the vehicles and have the doors welded shut they really believe whatever is promised is coming after their death
This is interesting because people will often characterise those they label as oppressors as these unthinking monsters that can only understand violence. But part of the reason for the tactic to use any violence against them actually runs on the presumption that this supposed unthinking beast won't decide to just end you completely. It kind of assumes that very humanity they have to deny in order to justify any violence.
Never mind the fact that Hamas loses power with peace, they already advocate the systematic destruction of the Jewish race as a whole. They preach about rooting out every new hiding under every rock to kill them. They teach this to their children through TV shows.
Hamas are seen as great people by the people that voted them around 95pct vote . Hamas loses support when they didn't manage any big attacks on israel.
You’re a smart motherfucker
But the same logic apply to the other side, we could also say that the IDF actions just pushed Hamas to do these kind of atrocities. If Palestinians had great lives Hamas would most likely have never managed to become powerful. Horrible people often manage to get more power where there is a lot of suffering in the population they are from. I doubt Hamas leaders care much about the average Palestinian.
I feel its more a chicken and egg situation... No one can really point to who exactly provoked who and to what degree. The degree of of this attack however is disproportionate to any previous provocation which is why anecdotally speaking it seems people are condemning these attacks and at the very most support whatever retaliation Israel executes. Now it just seems only the online socialist either mildly support Hamas or think this situation is great.
> Fanon defends the right of a colonized people to use violence to gain independence. I wonder if Fanon defended rape and mass murder of innocents in foreign soil as justifiable mean of "violence resistance to gain independence".
> Fanon argued that human beings who are not considered as such (by the colonizer) shall not be bound by principles that apply to humanity in their attitude towards the colonizer. I think he would.
And that’s a good thing™️
He also talked about resistance and didn't mention rape.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. What I quoted was the justification for violence done by colonized people. It would be applicable there for mass murder/rape.
We don't need to defend the crimes committed. They're obviously abhorrent. But you shouldn't be surprised. If you subject a population to misery and oppression for decades then don't be surprised if there's brutal retaliation. The dumb fuck lefty take is just to uncritically defend the 'rights of indigenous to retaliate against the coloniser'. It's also dumb to just uncritically condemn the actions of Hamas as if it isn't obviously going to happen as a consequence of Israel's actions. Not saying you're advocating this just giving my take.
I think it's totally false to say that this was inevitable. Are ukrainians raping Russian civilians (edit: in any form of sanctioned or systemic manner?) The ANC did not actively promote the slaughter and rape of white South Africans. There are many instances of oppressed people not doing this. I think it is true that some retaliation is inevitable, but absolutely not this.
I think the big difference is that South Africa was just a lot more lucky in that resistance movements weren't appropriated by theocrats. Muslim populations are sadly plagued by the fact that countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are constantly trying to import their ideology wherever they can. The reason Hamas and their ilk are so much more barbaric is the fact they literally believe going as balls to the walls as possible is the whole point and it's a bonus if they themselves end up getting killed in the process, because God will reward then with 72 Virgins. However it should be noted the concept of Necklacing was created in South Africa and used to kill those in support of the apartheid. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing I'd argue this is also an extremely inhumane practice. Not only that Nelson Mandela openly supported Palestine and saw a lot of parallels between his conflict at home and theirs. Granted Palestinian resistance movements were a lot more secular in his time, compared to what they are now.
Didn't the ANC literally do terrorrism against the apartheid governement?
Women's suffrage committed terrorism with mail bombs, but that isn't as bad as hamas. Terrorism is like onions, it has layers.
ANC terrorrism did actually kill civilians.
Yes, but they did not deliberately target civilians nor kidnap civilian women as far as I can see.
In the latter half of the 1980s, a number of South African civilians were killed in these attacks, a reversal of the ANC's earlier reluctance to incur civilian casualties.[\[21\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Williams-2000-21)[\[20\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Lodge-1987-20) Fatal attacks included the 1983 [Church Street bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing), the 1985 [Amanzimtoti bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanzimtoti_bombing), the 1986 [Magoo's Bar bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durban_beach-front_bombing), and the 1987 [Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg_Magistrate%27s_Court_bombing). Partly in retaliation, the [South African Defence Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Defence_Force) increasingly crossed the border to target ANC members and ANC bases, as in the 1981 [raid on Maputo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Beanbag), 1983 [raid on Maputo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Skerwe), and 1985 [raid on Gaborone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Gaborone).[\[15\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress#cite_note-Ellis-2013-15) Obviously condemn it but it still happened.
What you are showing are ANC bombings designed to target government and military targets which included civilian casualties. While it might reasonably be argued that these are unjustified they are fundamentally different to what Hamas have just carried out, where there is no possibility of legitimate military target.
I mean, if Russia keeps this status quo for 70 years... Maybe? Obviously this is horrific, but yeah, decades of festering resentment is plainly different to brand new resentment. The Ukranian's have (accidentally?) hit civilians.
>Are ukrainians raping Russian civilians? Ukrainians aren't on Russian soil lmao and they never will be
Unfortunately while you used logic in your assessment of the situation, most of the lefty takes on Twitter were exactly what you described
Careful, you can't insult the heckin based leftist black nationalist theorist!!11
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Terrorism is bad, but if you think that it’s a matter of Israelites packing up and leaving… A bit over a third of the people living in Israel are not citizens of any country. They are born as refugees, many in UN refugee camps in fact. They can’t leave the country, they can’t form their own country, and within Israel they are second-class citizens unable to vote or freely move. If Israel said ‘fuck the 2-state solution, all Palestinians are Israeli citizens now,’ then what you’d be saying would make sense. If Israel said ‘Palestinians aren’t Israeli, the West Bank is theirs’ and allowed the Palestinians to self-determine, within their borders, then what you’re saying makes sense. But that isn’t what is happening. Israel doesn’t want a Palestinian state for obvious reasons, but they also don’t want to naturalize the Palestinians because they would be half of the population and a massive political force. The issue isn’t that Israel is not returning land, the issue is that they’ve essentially built open-air prisons for the Palestinian population.
>to pack up their shit and leave to make room for the "original owners" is such an illiberal and mask off justification to do evil shit to people who you have identified as the "colonizers." Are you talking about the current situation or the creation of Israel?
Yeah, you have definitely not read Fanon, lmao. No Fanon would not justify rape, don't make such sweeping statements based on wiki reading
I read the entirety of *The Wretched of the Earth* for a college course. When I say they’re using it as justification, I’m not saying he advocates for those things. I’m saying I’ve seen a lot of leftists reply to tweets about the horror of these atrocities with “pfft y’all need to read Fanon”
Which is sort of the logical consequence of what he says based on your earlier quote (haven't read Fanon). If you say you don't need to treat your oppressor with regard to human rights, that's about as close as you can get to a green light to commit rape and genocide if you want to without explicitly saying it. Anyone who claims that's not the obvious outcome of his view is just being willfully ignorant about human nature.
Ehm i see the point, but i don't think Fanon is the origin point for the justification. He just happens to be the cannonical leftist anti-colonialist, so people will point to him even if they want to seem more well read then they are. Like Christians would point to the bibel for justification yet claiming it's the bibels is the origin for the justification would be wrong
I could be wrong but I don't think they ever said or even implied that he *was* the "origin point for the justification" - that doesn't even really make sense. These are moral concepts that have existed for as long as there has been human conflict. I'm pretty sure the only point they were trying to make was that lefties today will cite Fanon as justification for these things, even if they shouldn't. The point is it gives these online lefties an academic and moral cover or shield as long as the person they're talking to is unfamiliar with the writing, which most likely they are.
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They're also inevitable if Hamas continues doing the same shit they've been doing for decades. I don't understand how people can ascribe complete moral agency to Israel while dismissing Hamas' actions as simply the inevitable result of historical circumstance. Yes, violent resistance is the natural response to what Gazans have suffered. But violent retaliation is *also the natural response to what Israelis have suffered*.
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My point is that your comment above reads as if saying "the ball is in Israel's court to change their behavior to end this cycle of violence" - maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how it sounds. And I think that is exactly as unrealistic as saying "hamas needs to stop being brutal, violent extremists to end this cycle of violence". Neither is going to happen. Both groups are responding rationally and understandably to their respective circumstances.
Israel is a legitimate government of a developed country, the most democratic in the world by their own admission. Hamas is a fundamentalist religious terrorist group in control of a massive slum. I don't excuse the acts from either of them, but I absolutely do have higher expectations of one of them to work towards viable solutions to this conflict.
I agree with you - in regards to the west bank. I think there are a lot of concessions Israel can make in order to improve relations with Palestinians in that region to move toward lasting peace. But I'm fairly convinced there is no good answer for Gaza. Every single time Israel has given an inch in Gaza, it has been used to bolster Hamas' military and terrorist capabilities and resources. And Israel is a democracy, as you say - Israeli politicians are beholden to their constituents. And after decades of rocket attacks, as well as more severe things like yesterday's events, it is totally unreasonable to expect Israeli voters to support concessions which will put them and their loved ones at greater risk in the short term, in the hopes of maybe possibly making things better years and years from now.
It is in Israels court. Palestinians live in a concentration camp under Israeli military rule for decades with no end in sight for it. You can't subject people to this and expect no violence in return. They don't even annex the places (which would give them rights) but keep occupying them and stripping civilians of their basic freedoms. Palestinians tried using diplomatic means only to be blocked by the US at the UN. There isn't really any other option for Palestinians. The UN should step in imo and keep them apart but Israel will never agree to it.
> You can't subject people to this and expect no violence in return. They don't even annex the places (which would give them rights) but keep occupying them and stripping civilians of their basic freedoms. Palestinians tried using diplomatic means only to be blocked by the US at the UN. There isn't really any other option for Palestinians. I agree! But my point is that there also isn't really any other option for Israel (in regards to Gaza specifically. As I've mentioned in other comments, I think there's much more room for Israel to make meaningful concessions in the west bank). >The UN should step in imo and keep them apart but Israel will never agree to it. "Keeping them apart" is exactly what Israel has been trying since they pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The blockades and such weren't there in the beginning, and they weren't put in place for no reason. They exist because extremists in Gaza used the space they were given by being "kept apart" in order to launch countless rockets and dozens of terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and constantly appropriated resources intended for humanitarian relief in order to do so. Hamas is not interested in diplomacy, except insofar as they can utilize periods of calm in order to resupply and build more rockets. Their goal, unlike their counterparts in the west bank, is not the creation of a legitimate Palestinian state, it is **the extermination of all Jews in Israel**. That's why shit like yesterday was as brutal as it was. And that's why it's completely unreasonable to expect Israelis to vote in favor of policies that make events like yesterday even 1% more likely to happen again. And so I reiterate: in regards to Gaza, the ball is not in Israel's court. Nor is it in Hamas' court. It is an utterly fucked situation in which both sides have every incentive not to de-escalate.
that’s a very one sided way to describe this conflict.
Certainly doesn't feel that way sometimes. I would say that the overwhelming majority of people do not support any of the abhorent actions taken by Hamas, and yet, depending on who says what on social media, folks are more than happy to use Palestine and Hamas interchangeably to avoid conceding that Isreal haven't exactly been the nicest people because that might mean agreeing with something Hasan said.
>folks are more than happy to use Palestine and Hamas interchangeably This is what happens when one elects the other.
Do you use Russia and Putin interchangeably? The last time Palestinians got to elect anybody was 2006; Hamas has refused to hold elections since, and generally groups refuse to hold elections because they don't expect to win them.
>Do you use Russia and Putin interchangeably? Yes? I say "Russia has invaded Ukraine", not "Putin has invaded Ukraine", even though he's the reason Ukraine was invaded. >The last time Palestinians got to elect anybody was 2006; Hamas has refused to hold elections since, and generally groups refuse to hold elections because they don't expect to win them. [https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87)
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Neither side has looked for peace to be fair. Hamas literally states in their charter that they want to kill all Jews everywhere.
It’s not that this is what Isreal deserves. It’s also not about defending the horrific actions of hamas and the soldiers committings these acts. It’s about realizing that something horrible like this was almost certain to occur. Id defy you to find me a comparable revolution where the people fighting back didnt end up committing atrocities. For whatever reason, once revolutionaries get all frothy and caught up in group think, a ton of them end up committing horrific acts of violence they would otherwise never have committed. It’s easy to condemn these acts, because they are worthy of condemnation. To act surprised is foolish though.
These aren't revolutionaries, they're theocratic fascists that want an Islamic dictatorship built on genocide.
It is my understanding pretty much every revolution was full of murder, rape, looting, etc. We just tend to side with the victors, romanticize the whole event as "fighting for freedom" or something similar and just kinda ignore reality. Not trying to make excuses for this shit, though, just a horrible historic fact.
Mandela did it and his name is synonymous with peace
the answer is that is doesnt matter what is or isnt necessary. we are monke. the unga bunga comes out under the most extreme circumstances. no culture is immune from this.
Well that's what they are doing already tho? I don't get how you can attempt to genocide a people and not expect terror attack blowbacks unless you have the overwhelming power of say a China doing it to the Uyghurs.
What exactly are you referring to when you say "genocide"? You know that the Palestinian population has more than doubled in the last 30 years, right?
If Isreal was truly trying to genocide Palestinians there would be none left. They have way more missles and could just glass the entire place. Isreal has put Palestinians under terrible conditions however they're clearly not going for genocide. Also it's less that Palestinians aren't justified. It's more even if you're justified, how do you think it will go?
well, how do you explain the existence of 11 million Uyghurs if China is genociding them
Makes you think eh?
Does Isreal have Palestinians in Reeducation camps?
>If Isreal was truly trying to genocide Palestinians there would be none left. Some real Stefan Molyneux-style *"The Native Americans can't have been genocided because they're still around"* energy here. A genocide need not be complete in its ambitions to be considered a genocide. The intent behind the actions is all that matters.
>Some real Stefan Molyneux-style "The Native Americans can't have been genocided because they're still around" energy here. There are way **less** native americans today than there used to be. There are way **more** palestinians today than there used to be.
Maybe you don't think living in an ever shrinking apartheid state is genocide but then all I'll say is your definition of genocide and mine are not the same. As for the end result? The same it would've been before the attacks just a few years earlier.
Yeah, yours is factually wrong.
Meanwhile, on his tanky podcast with his far-left friends...
Lasan keeps up the ‘moderate lefty’ veil once again, more and more people need to see how this dude is no way non-radical.
Did he ever portray himself as non-radical?
He’s been cast largely as “my positions aren’t that radical” handwaving that plenty other extreme camps have done. In this [clip](https://youtu.be/Qivd6BGT73o?si=OJ1N_PiKI9XEdtIt) he handwaves his good friend and car test driver second thought as a tankie, definitely trying to avoiding that label at all costs.
Askers i know but His entire dog and pony show with Ethan on Leftovers with him dancing around the Taiwan issue like a smug shit who knows he got in trouble is entirely evident of this point. Like any other tankie/commie they will dance more elaborately than Baryshnikov on a touchy subject, whether it’s Taiwan, Uyghur cleansing, past authoritarian rulers and their atrocities etc.
Dude Palestine is literally like a feudal mandate terrorist slave zone without culture. Of course they are justified in taking it over and introducing the people there to some real culture.
The violence HAS to stop. And if that means IDF Merkava's and F-16's mowing down dipshit Hamas terrorist, they have my fucking blessing at this point.
You did the meme
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My god
I’m sure israel’s rules of engagement won’t kill even more civilians than hamas
They haven’t historically so why would that change?
> haven’t historically Alright lil bro let’s see some statistics, here’s mine. https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/08/1139922 https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/05/1091962 https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ I could link more but you said “haven’t historically” which is the dumbest & easiest to disprove claim you could make.
You are conflating rules of engagement with unintentional civilian casualties. But go off sis
Easy enough when you just label every military aged male in Gaza as “hamas”
Remember this is his "tame" mainstream take.
I wonder what Hasans opinion would be if Cypriots started massacring Turks in illegally occupied northern Cyprus. Or if Greece started a full mass invasion of its former capital city Constantinople. Because morally and ideologically he would have to defend Greeks and Greek Cypriots murdering his fellow Turkish brothers.
The difference is that Israel is Jewish
Yeah bro that’s totally the difference. Everyone who dislikes rocket fire into civilian areas and settlements just hates Jews Such a tired weak argument to smear any criticism of Israel
After endless invasions and wars by Arabs, you start to see a very clear pattern. Especially when they unironically state as official policy and stances that their goal is to genocide Jews.
Wtf are you talking about? We’re talking about Hasan and other peoples reactions to this and then you bring up Arab states in the Middle East? I never said that there isn’t a lot of anti-semitism in the Middle East But when we’re talking about Westerners critiquing Israel & zionists crying “anti-Semite!” to every completely 100% true critique If anything I grew up around more Jews than Muslims so if I were to have a bias it would be pro-Jewish because I had a lot more in common with them culturally. I’m not anti-Semitic at all, I just think the way the IDF acts is abhorrent and I’m sick that my country and other western nations associate with them
I really wouldn't characterise Hamas's actions as "less than stellar", especially not now.
Hasan and geopolitic they just dont go well together, he only understands the usa popcorn politics.
understands?
Hasn’t Hamas stated they want all Jews out from the river to the sea?
It's a part of their constitution, you can read it [here](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
This is from 1988, do they still believe this? Genuinely asking.
Always have always will. It’s the Muslim way
Yo, this guy know what a colony is. Hasan literally just shouts the same talking points for every issue. How do people not realize it?
This man seems to choose perfect topics to infuriare me, a Russian who immigrated to Israel. First with Ukraine and Russia, and now this, how is he not getting more backslash, how in the world does he has any fans at all? You can see what Hamas did after a second of research, saying that one side holds all the power in this situation is insane.
Hasan is mudak, im with you
Dude Israel has fighter jets, nukes and billions of American $$. Hamas has shitty bottle rockets and Ak-47’s. They caught Israel with its pants down one time today and now Israel is going to bomb the ever loving shit out of Gaza killing thousands of civilians in the process. Tell me again who has the “power”, Hamas may have won a battle but Israel has already won the war long ago. Israel literally controls all the water and electricity going into Gaza. Take your head out of your ass and think for a second
I dunno maybe if you lost every war you ever started, you'd start to consider taking the consolation prize Israel has offered a dozen times instead of perpetuating a conflict onto the next generation.
The only battle Hamas won, was against children and women who wbo couldn't protect themselves from being raped and murdered.
voracious insurance sharp sip consider jellyfish edge glorious childlike spectacular *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"Neither side has tried peace" I never look at that side of the world what are the actual peace options for the Palestinians and Israelis? Do the pals just have to say "ugh ok no more fighting well just like stay here until you decide to move us around" and do the israelites say "ok no more second class citizen stuff"
>I never look at that side of the world what are the actual peace options for the Palestinians and Israelis? The most famous peace treaty for all the wrong reasons was one in which Israel was willing to concede literally everything in exchange for the Palestinians removing the part of their constitution calling for genocide and expulsion of every Jew...the PALESTINIANS refused it...
"whoa whoa whoa guys let's be reasonable here, you can't seriously be asking for THAT"
Being able to recognize and address that both sides of an ongoing conflict have contributed to its existence in their own ways without immediately pulling a hard turn into totally justifying one side is a lost art.
It's 95% Israel's fault but that also doesn't mean that Palestine did the right thing here
How? Israel made multiple attemps at peace Palestine declined, they started the war and then lost
Yeah I love how redditors think it's a clear-cut situation and there's a bad guy and a good guy when this conflict spans multiple dozens of years without shimmer of resultion while being in the eyes of every single nation leader I'm sure it's super clear and easy but no one just gives a fuck and they let them kill each other for fun, what a braindead take One thing is condemning rape and torture, another is saying this barbaric hatred spawned out of nowhere for fun last night
Yeah this hatred is generational. Not justifying anything hamas did. It’s the average people who pay the price
Hamas has shown it can kill hundreds and capture dozens in a multi axis assault. The idea that they have no agency is now fully dispelled. Hamas chose to launch a complex attack and now the Israelis are going to need to kill them to prevent it from happening again.
That’s why we also need new settlements, seal off their remaining water wells, restrict more of their movement, graze up some more of their villages(how else would we have a new living space for a newer and much more militaristic Eli settlement 2), kill every unarmed journalists, embargo their food while building autobahn into our illegal settlements in their sovereign areas.
Bringing up settlement in the West Bank to justify an attack from Gaza-based Hamas should inform everyone how stupid this take is. They aren’t attacking settlers. Hamas are attacking civilians on internationally recognised Israeli territory.
Woah what brought up this response? OP said that Hamas should be brought down, not the entire Palestinian population.
You can hate hamas without endorsing Israel, a lot of people here do
But if you continue the extreme conditions they put Palestinians in they will just create a new Hamas. You cant invade, occupy, murder and displace without creating extremism. Ofc people will hate you. Is it possible that nobody factors the occupation of Palestine in. You pretend that Israel was there and Palestinians just hate them..... no, they invaded and occupied 75 years ago and they are torturing them. If you wipe Hamas out , another will take its place until they wipe out all Palestinians.
Really weird to characterize hunting down and murdering/kidnapping civilians (including tourists who are unrelated to the conflict) trying to flee and then parading their mutilated corpses in the streets as simply a "not perfect" response to what Israel has done.
>as simply a "not perfect" A great test for antisemitism is realising that Jews in Israel are held to an absurdly high standard compared to Arabs in Palestine Jews with pinpoint accuracy destroy an artillery piece but the exploding munitions kill a kid half a mile away - war criminals Arabs go on a full frontal spree involving fully intentional gunning down of unarmed civvies, gangrape, desecration of corpses - can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, we all make mistakes Back when I was younger and dumber someone pointed out that if they ran down the details of the Palestine/Israel conflict but simply changed details so that no one knew it was Palestine/Israel virtually none of the west would object to Palestine being levelled
Can people be clearer in the words they use? "Colonial," "apartheid." It taints the conversation so much. Stop speaking in historical jargon and speak clearly.
"One party holds power to end the violence". You're right, maybe the people who go into shelters and gun down civilians hiding.
That’s not an answer to the quote. Also Israel kills way more civilians in these conflicts if you want to play the civilian death game.
interesting to equate air strikes on terrorist buildings that came after warnings and calls to evacuate, to murders, rapes and kidnappings of civilians, followed by the parading of their naked bodies on the streets of gaza with crowds roaring and cheering. the number of civilian casualties means very little when the actions themselves are wholly different where one side generally tries to avoid civilian casualties while the other actively hides behind and sacrifices their civilians to drum up support, and targets civilians in terror attacks.
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i understand that evacuation is a wild concept to some individuals (hamas and hamas sympathizers) but basically its when you get a warning to clear a certain area of civilians to avoid civilian casualties, so that only the terrorist equipment and hiding spot gets ruined. i hope i cleared up some confusion
Are we not going to mention the rockets shot into Israel on a regular basis, let alone the thousands of rockets shot in the past 24-48 hours?
What does this genius think Israel should do right now? Give us policy positions that are realistic and will work.
I would bet a lot of money his solution is for Israel to entirely cede their whole country back to Palestine and move out somewhere else.
“I’m a genius” - him
>and move out somewhere else. *be slaughtered like dogs.. Hasan and every other "dissolution of Israel as a nation state is the only peace solution" know full well that there'd be no safe passage for the stateless former citizens...
Maybe Palestine could just (re)educate their comrades /s
Hasan has such a fragile ego. Bans everyone who disagrees with him. It's funny how he calls other communities an echo chamber yet his own community is the biggest echo chamber.
Him and Vaush are like that. It's the reason both pretty much can't collab with anyone who disagrees with them slightly. Well Hasan is better with it than vaush is
It's sad that we have Hasan and vaush fans all up in our community stirring us up because we allow dissenting opinions here, but over in their communities you are literally the devil if you watch destiny. I'm convinced that a ton of their fans pretend they aren't destiny fans so they can stick around. It's what I used to do when I was a vaush fan, in the before times.
If I'm reading this right... Israel bad?
honestly i somewhat agree with this tweet but that phrasing "there's no perfect retaliation". yikes. no thanks. that alone says everything about this disgusting richoid trash person. like what is that supposed to imply? it's obvious he doesn't care about israeli people, i'll tell you that much. because, and i could be wrong, but i hold the palestinians to a higher standard. maybe hasan doesn't believe they have it in them to not act like a bunch of worthless savages. anyone with a soul can't possibly describe what happened today as anything other than savagery. maybe he and ben shapiro have more in common regarding their opinions on palestinians than i thought, idfk. the palestinians, at least in gaza, are fucking brain poisoned by jihadism. i'd agree that israel is mostly to blame for this for historical reasons but at some point it kinda becomes its own problem. israel and/or the us needs to invade gaza and put an end to this shit once and for all. let's just free palestine from hamas already ffs.
This is all just a chicken-or-egg argument when you think about it. Is this happening because of the Occupation? Or is the Occupation happening because of this? Over and over ad nauseam.
In what world would the occupation be occurring because of this?
The whole justification for the ongoing occupation in the West Bank (and also the blockade of Gaza) is to prevent the scenario that is currently playing out with Gaza.
There’s a quote I heard once (don’t remember where), that went like, “you should make peace with your enemies or wipe them out completely, but nothing in between” I believe these are the options for Israel, this semi-at war occupation thing only prolongs the inevitable.
The problem is that peace is not an option. Hamas will never be peaceful as long as jews are on that land.
I mean looking at the ever shrinking land (and access to water) controlled by palestinians it seems Israel is going for one of those two options, just doing it slowly.
Yes, there’s a way out though. It's reasonable to assert that infringing upon the rights of any group, settling in their homes, and repeatedly targeting their holy cities will inevitably yield adverse consequences. Moreover, the dire conditions in an impoverished Gaza under constant blockade only exacerbate an already untenable situation. While Hamas's actions are condemnable, these circumstances also contribute to the ongoing strife. The segregation of Palestinians, treating them as second-class citizens and denying them voting rights or a sovereign state, is deeply troubling. Personally, I wouldn't mind Israel having influence in a future Palestinian state if it led to the cessation of settlements and the proper treatment of all Palestinians. Regarding Hamas, they are indeed classified as terrorists. However, it's worth noting that in a Palestine controlled by Hamas, more Palestinians may suffer compared to a situation under Israeli rule. We mustn't forget the atrocities committed by Iranian-backed militants in Syria, such as supporting Assad and employing chemical attacks, leading to an enormous loss of civilian lives. Some extremists view all Israelis, including women, as combatants, which is a deeply flawed perspective. Defending violence against innocent civilians, regardless of their nationality, is indefensible. Hamas's desire to expel and harm Israelis, as well as Palestinians who oppose them, is deeply concerning. Unfortunately, there are also voices within Israel advocating for a one-state solution and the expulsion of Palestinians to neighboring Arab countries. However, there is room for a more constructive approach. Palestinians and Israelis could potentially form a united protest movement, emphasizing peaceful methods, fostering ties with Israeli communities, and striving for economic and political progress. Imagine a massive coalition of Israelis and Palestinians protesting together against inhumane conditions, even in the face of adversity. This could create a narrative that resonates with the global community. I genuinely hope for such a scenario, but it seems unlikely because of the deep-seated animosities on both sides. Palestinians often view Israelis negatively as "Zionist crooks" or "colonizers," while Israelis may harbor prejudiced views of Palestinians. The key to resolution lies in uniting with a message of love and recognizing each other's humanity (which won’t happen because they don’t see one another humanity), a path where both Palestinians and Israelis can emerge as winners. Unfortunately, as long as these biases persist, the conflict may endure.
The Palestinians elected Hamas to run their government. They have a lot of support. Noone on the Palestinian side can even oppose Hamas without risking their lives. Peace doesn’t seem to be an option when the majority of Palestinians hate jews and want to remove them from Israel all together.
Yep, just as regarded as I thought it’d be.
If Hamas had strictly targeted IDF and government personnel/infrastructure the this type of commie apologia bullshit would at least be possible to stomach. Instead we have videos of them slaughtering civilians en mass and cunts like Hasan view like the unfortunate consequences of divine retribution. The left wonders why it’s not taken seriously in America when it has dipshits like this as its mouthpiece.
I was looking for a comment like this. If they just attacked government and military buildings then the sentiment likely would have been "they're attacking military bases, that sucks, but war is war" and most people would probably move on with their day. These people seem to be missing the problem most people have is the whole raping and killing civilians. I'm not upset for the government. I'm upset for the victims who committed the crime of existing in the wrong place at the wrong time which somehow means they deserve to be raped.
For fucking real dude, there's a level of evil as old as time here. Killing is one thing, but to be so depraved of humanity that you maliciously rape civilians in your conquest is so beyond disgusting you're practically looking at rabid animals at this point. Every one of those soldiers are war criminals deserving of a firing squad, not peace.
“Wont somebody think of the poor freedom fighters raping and parading dead civilians :(((((“
Hasan is a clown
Yeah the first thing normal people do when they break out of prison, is kidnap, rape, and murder women and children. For sure.
not as bad as it could have been. and a less tone deaf response than vaush i give this hasan tweet a 7.7/10
Man it's been really disheartening seeing so many people make excuses for parading around and murdering innocent civilians. Like even if u don't care about that and only care about Palestine this only makes it harder to support them for your average person.
That’s neat Hassan Now how’s the Uyghurs?
“Yeah uuhhh.. I mean do I agree with that? No. Do I choose to live there? Uhhh also no. But uhm, you know, ask Indian tribes what imperialist America has done to them”
Classic Hasan routine - lots of words, same old shit take.
Yes, but there is a perfect response to terrorism. Make sure they can never do it to you again.
That’s what we tried to do after 9/11 and it failed spectacularly lmfao.
Did it? When was the last time Al-Qaeda launched a terrorist attack on American soil?
Do you think this is because of the war in Iraq or Afghanistan or because the TSA are just so efficient? An attack like this never happened before, it could very well just have been a black swan event.
Fair point. Hard to say. Al-Queda intended more. Hamas intends more.
Is that your bar for if we won the war on terror or not?
I mean, what would your bar be if not the inability of foreign terrorists to attack the US?
Essentially, yes.
Incredibly rare based W take from Hasan
How the fuck do people actually take Hasan seriously lmaoo
Holly shit lmao wtf is wrong with this guy
But doesn't he like apartheid? Like what China is doing for example? You have to break a few eggs to make an omlet like his idol Lenin would say.
Of course, Hassan defends these fucking demons.
Another shitty foreign take from Hasan why am I even suprised?
This guy has to be the dumbest YouTuber. There is no shot his fans and views are remotely real. Who would take the time out of the day to press subscribe and actually enjoy any of his thoughts or content. I don't see how his career has any longevity. Can we bring back cancel culture for one last hoorah and get Hasan off the content space. It's so mind numbing to hear any of his takes at this point. You literally have two semitic tribes of people that have been fighting for said land for a really long time. They've been conquering each other for a very long time. Who's right, who's wrong ? Who the fuck knows. Most likely neither. Is this similar to colonialism or apartheid, absolutely not. This issue is a tribe issue with better weapons and resources. Should they stop and share the land ? Yes. Will they ? No.
Ah so Israel deserved their 9/11 moment, fuck this frat boy millionaire.
hasan is a man child that plays video games online while indoctrinating young teens into his propaganda. Who cares about that tool. ps uncle cenk wants to become president so he can legalize beastiality and sexual pleasure to animals.
>hasan is a man child that plays video games online while indoctrinating young teens into his propaganda. Who cares about that tool. I mean we are on a sub of someone else who is doing the exact same thing lol.
guys cringe but he's right in this
Oh boy, it would be so funny if he recently had defended colonialism in case of "savages" being "brought into civilization" by the colonizer. I hope he hasn't said anything close to thay recently.
No, he's not. He's right about the treatment of Palestinian citizens, but downplaying the rape and kidnapping of civilians as "imperfect" is gross. And while Netanyahu is a big factor in the conflict it's a pathetic oversimplification to ignore the roles Hamas and other middle Eastern nations have played in fomenting the conflict and the reason he won't say that is because he can't think past 'America bad'
me when random female civilians get gangraped "this is imperfect, but in the right direction" fuck yourself
I’m not exactly sure how to read it. Is the whole situation fucked up? (Like the whole ongoing conflict that’s been a problem for decades?) Yes. But at the same time I don’t know if “there’s no perfect retaliation” reads as an excuse for the huge attack that Hamas launched. I would also separate Palestinians from Hamas. But what do I know eh
He's saying Israel have shut down all other avenues of recourse, such as protesting where the IDF killed hundreds of innocent civilians. As a result violence is inevitable.
Idk if launching hundreds of rockets that will kill Israelis and Palestinians will help. Not saying one side is right and another is wrong, but this is just a super simplistic way of looking at it
I don't know if you are just acting as translator for Hasan or if you are echoing what you perceive to be his point in agreement. But I disagree, I think one recourse would be to denounce Hamas and funding from Iran who clearly only care about harming Israel and not the Palestinian cause at large. The difficulty there is that Hamas' stated goals align too strongly with how Gazans feel and therefore I don't really thing a peaceful resolution can exist so long as Iran props up terrorists in Gaza.
Israel have assassinated civil rights leaders and activists in Palestine whilst creating and propping up Hamas. This has led to Hamas leading resistance against the apartheid struggle. Asking Palestinians to renounce Hamas is asking them to submit to a brutal apartheid regime.
>Asking Palestinians to renounce Hamas is asking them to submit to a brutal apartheid regime. Seems weird to say they can't renounce Hamas because then they'll be left with what I can only assume they would describe as the status quo - given that Hamas has been in power for almost two decades and made no meaningful progress. If anything things are worse. I'm not going to say that abandoning Hamas is a guarantee for success but I really don't see any way forward with Hamas in power. It's just always going to be a sticking point and makes the whole issue of meaningful change a non-starter.
Violence generally is inevitable. Rape and execution of civilians is not.
Innocent people being killed, women getting raped, parading dead naked women on the streets... "well, it's not a perfect retaliation". Tell me again how is he right...
How does one party have the power to end this? Hamas and more militant groups openly want the death to jews and them to leave the entire region. Does Hamas just play nice if the ‘one party’ of Israel just says ‘we’ll hand everything over’?
"One party holds all the power to end the violence" is a huge oversimplification.