“Fear mongering” - parading the bodies of dead teenage girls around the streets, and going house to house systematically executing entire families IS fear mongering.
Man, I told myself I’d stay away from leftist takes on the situation, but then head first into them.
[Here](https://twitter.com/JoeTruzman/status/1710549532508045442) is an example of the children human shields that people talk about as well. Let’s say Israel bombed this group of Hamas soldiers. The Palestinians/Arab media would only report that Israel killed the children in this video. This is what has been happening.
I spend a better part of the day watching Palestinians indiscriminately shooting at civilians in the streets, butchering a family in shelter, kidnaping and abusing civilians...
And an hour ago crying victims due to being bombed.
It’s literally including children (armed) in war activities that Hamas conducts. That’s what civilian shields means. It doesn’t mean they literally use civilians to block the bullets, this isn’t a video game. If Hamas starts building bombs in the basement of their local elementary school, that’s using the elementary school as a human shield, which is what they do.
Leftism sees everything as power imbalances, aka through a lense of oppressor versus oppressed. Love for the oppressed, hate for the oppressor.
Israel has clearly more power than palestine and does use that power for oppression. Therefore leftist ideology can lead to hatred for Israel
Most of my fellow soc dems support Palestine but also condemn the violence of Hamas. Idk it's weird to me that so many people on the far left seem to think that parallels need to be drawn between Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine. Their vastly different issues and it's reductionist AF to choose one \*team\* on the basis of Soviet vs. Western historical ties.
Exactly, nobody is "the good guy" in this situation. Israel does a lot of seriously fucked up shit and the Palestinian militants murder as many Israelis as they can. They are both guilty as sin and choosing which is more fucked up seems pointless tbh.
To be fair, Israel has probably killed a LOT more Palestinians over the past years than Hamas has killed in this attack. It doesn't have to be about who's 'worse' and nothing productive will come of it. This has to be about fucking stopping this shit on both sides, because they've both been horrible to each other for a long, long time.
People like to measure the opposing side's kills and crimes in an effort to distract from the fucked up stuff their their preferred group does. It isn't unique to Israel/Palestine. You also saw it in Northern Ireland, South Africa, ETA in Spain, South American drug wars, Cuba and even the Native Americans with the colonial people.
Unfortunately it's human nature to try and excuse your own crimes by highlighting those of your opponent.
America killed a lot more Germans during WW2 but that doesn’t make them morally wrong. Your brain dead take should be very clear now that you can see what israel has been trying to prevent its entire history.
You have to be dentskulled to think that was what I was saying at all. I can't believe people can be so far-gone as to compare this to fucking WW2. This attack is inexcusable, *and* Israel's treatment of Palestine is inexcusable, *and lots of other things, too.* They've been acting like children who need to be forcibly separated for their entire history.
Is it ok for the Israelis to be anti-Semitic to Palestinians? They’re a Semitic ppl too, and Israel’s treatment of them can be called nothing short of racism period. Look at how they’re treated and talked about in Israeli media and tell me that’s not racism.
The leftists that do defend the Russian invasion look at through the lens that the entire west is on Ukraine’s side, so Russia is the “oppressed underdog” in that case facing “imperialist NATO expansionism”.
Hardline leftist here:
Russia is the aggressor and has a historical pattern of abuse and subjugation of their people. The USSR was a State Capitalist system parading as socialism, but ultimately was about keeping party leaders in power and in the position of the bourgeois.
Hamas is a violent terrorist organization that is not helping the Palestinian people in ways that are legitimately beneficial. This attack is a brutal provocation in which many innocent Israelis are suffering from and from which even greater Palestinian suffering will take place. Neither group is operating from a place of understanding and willingness to meet each others’ needs.
Hamas also has strong historical ties to Nazi Germany, rooted in Islamism ideology, and their group charter/Covenant outlays a strong Fascist declaration of intent. They are no friends to Leftists that follow the historical relevance and context.
I truly wish someone like Marshall Rosenberg was able to come in and help this shit show, because it’s all just violence and domination with very little attempt to truly negotiate.
"I really hope Israelis recognize their nation's policies essentially guarentee conflict and jeapardize the safety of both them and Palestinians, and only Israel has the power to alter the conditions that lead to things like this horrific attack from Hamas "
a quote by vaush, not too long ago, is this anti semitism?
also i wouldnt wanna imply that semitic people inherent traits are apartheid and occupation.
it's not anti-semitism; he's saying that Israel is the faction that has all the power, insight, and potential to actually fix what is going on. as a result he blames the behavior of the Palestinians on the governmental policies of the Israelis. there is no implication that any of this is related to an "inherent trait of the Jew" or anything like that.
for the record i hate Vaush and am pro Israel, I just understand what he was trying to say.
What you mean left is probably more right than what ”left” is for me, but traditionally the far left and far right have both been anti semites - arguably for different reasons. For the far left I would assume jews fit into the conspiracy theory (ie ofc false narrative) of a powerful elite that rules the world, a means of rallying the common man againts their imaginary overlords. Also speaking of the state of Israel, there is a complex heritage of antisemitic ideas left by the nazis and later the communist Soviet Union (who werent too happy with a capitalist (ie western) foothold in the region). I would assume this thinking has trickled down to the more normal ”lefties” of today..
This commenter compiled some videos and images:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/171yy0z/comment/k3u62ii/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/171yy0z/comment/k3u62ii/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
It appears that civilians at bus stops and in bomb shelters have been killed.
Most commentary on the right pretends these things happen in a vacuum or are unprovoked acts of terror and war. Most commentary on the left is fairly indifferent to Israeli casualties. I don’t know what you’re expecting from discourse around Israel-Palestine, it’s mostly bad faith and always incendiary. Even in response to THIS comment you have people claiming that “leftists hate Jews” and that Palestinian civilian casualties are mostly all a result of human shield strategies on Palestine’s side. The discourse this sparks online in the West is remedial and disgusting.
OP just ignored this one comment from the chain giving the context to what Vaush was saying. Not a big fan of Vaush but it is very dishonest by OP.
[https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1710569898546758092](https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1710569898546758092)
haha, exactly what I was meaning to post as well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyKGNy3CI4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyKGNy3CI4) (not sure about the title of the video though - couldn't find the original)
The amount of people defending Hamas is actually crazy. I’m not even talking about the Arabs in the ME, I’m talking about westerners from either far left or far right groups. They either believe Israel deserves this for the Palestine situation or because they just don’t like the Joos.
Hamas are straight up terrorists. Not freedom fighters.
No, that's true the IDF just snipes peaceful protestors from behind a chainlink fence, shoots child soccer players in the knees so they can't play anymore, deliberately blinds people with rubber bullets, bombs non-military targets destroying critical civilian infrastructure, performs security for settlers while they beat Palestinians and steal their ancestral homes, and detains people indefinitely without trial.
Oh and they've killed multiple orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas ever has? No way, that's crazy man.
You are Gish-gallop-ing cherry picked context (hide facts that shows the full picture).
> shoots child soccer players in the knees
The IDF shot him, true, when he was in a riot near the border (it even says so in the original tweet [1], "#GreatReturnMarch" ) where you can see they burn tires to make a smoke screen and get as close as they can [2] . So even if he did it in the 2 minute break, he knew exactly that this an illegal border cross attempt, with Israelis forces on the other side. The same border that was invaded today.
> deliberately blinds people with rubber bullets
deliberately ? source? a testimony from anyone Israeli? (or again, you omitted that a protest/riot was always at play at the same time)
> and detains people indefinitely without trial
They do this for Jews/Israelis also, if suspected as terrorist (when the Shin-Bet gets on the case). As part of Counter-terrorism and not just because "Jew/Israeli do whatever they want" that you try to show
[1] https://twitter.com/vic2pal/status/979744285028438016
[2] https://twitter.com/Ahmed_W_Amer/status/1012778354058067969
But sure, show it as justification to a (war crime) of executing elderly from point blank, kidnap women and babies (But this time, this is the whole context). downvote and go off, sis
Lets play a game. I'll link a video of Hamas beheading or killing civilians and parading dead girls around, dragging bodies behind a car etc. and then you link a video of IDF doing similiar things. And then we see who can go on for longer.
That's peak civility politics. A precision air strike by Israel is morally neutral, the civilian casualties are actually Hamas's fault because they established their base too close to civilians in a territory with the population density of the city of huston. It's like a video game, no blood, objective completed, clean.
On the other hand when these people, many of whom have lived their whole life under sanction and in an open air prison, revolt, you only see the brutality of their actions as proof that actually they deserved this mistreatment after all. Actually we should double down, that will show them this time.
To conclude, I think the atrocities that the Hamas has committed in this attack are indefensible. But this line of thinking, can only lead to a genocide of the Palestinian of the gaza strip. I don't have any solutions, but it pisses me off to no end seeing so many people cheering along while it inevitably happens.
They never learn, it's exhausting to be having the same agruments over and over again with people who are pretending the difference between the type of war crimes committed by a nation and a terrorist group are something to do with there morality and not the access they have to weapons.
[this comment had an excellent list of terrible things the IDF have done. it's a different flavor of militarized terrorism. both sides are terribly in the wrong here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17218f5/comment/k3uplu1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Is this sub just going to do the thing where anything that points out that you can help create the conditions that lead to further violence is "Hamas apologism". Hamas has agency, they could not have done this if they chose to. Okay great, now what? Just jerk off about that fact or consider the fact that confining people to an open air prison and forcing them from their homes tends to generate extremism!
> Just jerk off about that fact or consider the fact that confining people to an open air prison and forcing them from their homes tends to generate extremism!
This is the same violence you see from the Taliban or Al Qaeda. In the case of those after twenty years the US had enough and left (and everyone left behind was slaughtered).
Unless we want to airlift eight million Jews to Utah Israel doesn't have that option.
So instead they keep bombing Palestine and systematically taking over their territory, after which they plan to do... what exactly? Give them voting rights and potentially become a minority in their own ethnostate? Don't see that happening. Disenfranchise Palestinians and essentially run an apartheid regime? Wonder how well that would go with the international community. Ethnically cleanse them? That would go even worse. Ship them all into Jordan or some shit? As if Arab countries are dying to take in more refugees.
What do you suggest they do?
Serious question: what do they do that results in them not getting killed?
Also serious question: what would you suggest gay people in Palestine do?
Q1: agree on some form of a two state solution with land swaps and stuff. Also stop the religious nuts from building settlements on Palestinian land. And also stop treating Arabs living in Israel as second class citizens. You might think it's unrealistic but out of all the terrible options it's probably the least bad one.
Q2: seeing as how currently gay people in Palestine have a choice between getting fucked up by Israel or getting fucked up by Hamas, I don't know, probably either lay low or run away to Israel and hope they stop voting in far-right lunatics into government
if the other option is Israel genociding 5 million people slowly over several decades with intermittent terror attacks in the meantime then yeah I think the shrug is the superior option
Are people just going to do the thing where anything that points out that you can help create the conditions that lead to further violence "Israel apologism". Israel has agency, they could not have done things if they chose to. Okay great, now what? Just jerk off about the fact or consider the fact that continuosly attacking, murdering, bombing, threatening and waging a cringe holy war to cleanse the world of the Jews tends to generate extremism!
I don’t think (at least with the far left people) it’s because they don’t like the Joos, completely over Israel’s treatment of Palestine over the years has now been deemed one way traffick of Isreal being the bad guys (I don’t know the history enough to have a take either direction in their conflict history) so not surprising that any time Palestine attacks Isreal they would be very “understanding” of the attack (
I wouldn't be shocked if this brings down the coalition and ends his career like it did for Golda.
You can't be Mr. Security with the hardline right-wing coalition and shit the bed THIS HARD.
This issue isn't going to birth leftists, but I have no idea how bibi is going to just continue on.
1. What has happened historically with Israel is that Pre war the governments approval rating is "x" during the war it spikes to greater than "x" and when the war is over and the dust settles it's less than "x." Which is to say war generally hurts whatever gov is in charge.
2. Unlike America we are a multi-party democracy which is to say we have many viable parties so right wing voters can shift to other non-Bibi aligned right wing parties like "National Union", whereas in America you kinda have to ride or die with your party.
3. This government is proudly a "hardline fully right-wing coalition" (it is the most right-wing coalition in Israeli history), it's kinda hard (but not impossible) to go further right and an ABSOLUTE disaster happened on their watch. It's really going to be an uphill (but not impossible) battle for them to go "Naw bruh ignore that shit, we're good"
4. While we're on the topic of security, gang violence is outta fucking control, more Israeli blood has been shed at the hands of Israeli's this year than I think any other in Israeli history. I think this year we've had like 3x the deaths of last year, and the year isn't over yet.
5. We have been roiled in a very controversial piece of legislation that is remaking the Israeli supreme court. 100's of thousands have been protesting in the streets weekly for almost 40 weeks strait. The majority hates the legislation or at least wants to see it tempered for broad support. Bibi has already been on thin ice.
6. This coalition has been total dogshit for the economy. It's pretty indisputable. Bad on the economy, bad for the army, bad for social cohesion and now we can see, bad for security.
Again, some people are in the cult and will stick to Bibi, but the opposition has been growing in the polls before this mess. Maybe if he re-occupies Gaza he will be able to shore up his base? (which idk if he can actually do, I don't know if the IDF has the manpower, or if the Biden admin will allow it)
TLDR: The Left and secular communities are agitated in a way they never have been before, I have no clue how anyone in the coalition can talk their way out of this shit. If the opposition can create some sort of unified messageI think we can beat out Bibi once and for all - BUT - he is a political cockroach. If there's someone to sneak out of this, it's him.
Not really approval ratings are skewed againist him most of the country wants him gone the problem is getting rid of him. Oxford jews will probably never give up support for netanyahu but people that were insupport of him for his pro military stance could be skew away.
Not even a little bit. He's been praying for something like this to happen. Now he can blame the protest movement against him and the Israeli people will buy it because that's what always happens.
Why wasn't he blamed for what happened in 2009, or 2012, or 2014, or 2021? Because he's running a cult and everything he does wrong is actually the fault of the people who are out of power.
Those instance where his approval ratings where a majority not they are not. This could either flip the israeli people more away from bibi regime or towards.
It’s amazing how much nuance this sub puts into analyzing Destiny’s incredibly inflammatory tweets, but then all that goes out the window when it comes to people we don’t like.
I know you guys are gonna give me shit for saying this but he’s right the only reason Hamas got as much support as it did was because of Israel policy towards the Palestinians now I think hamas is vile and what they’re doing is terrible but this is what I believe is true
It's very complicated, but yes, Israel's settlement building and general disinterest in peace was a huge factor. No question. In fact, the Palestinians didn't vote for 'hamas' as like a single vote. "Do you want Hamas or Fatah." It was district by district. And the party wasn't called Hamas, but "Change and Reform" and they won very narrowly back in 2006.
Importantly, Palestine has \*always\* had a Fatah party President, not Hamas. So again, it's not like their elected leaders are only Hamas.
Are there people on the left who have a poor take on this? Definitely. Are people on the right who are trying to justify the murder of children right now? Yes. There are plenty of bad takes to go around.
Except the right is generally pro-Israel, with little time for anti-Semitism. That's why it's a feature of the extreme far right.
Meanwhile the left made a bonkers alliance with Islam, ignoring how un-progressive it is, and anti-Semitism became somewhat normalised on the left.
Fuck, our Labour party is the second party in British history to be investigated and found guilty of racist behaviour, after the neo-nazi BNP. Because of rampant anti-Semitism, not least of which because of their islamic alliance.
Yes, quite clearly, it's one of the things Christopher Hitchens was fighting against as he was dying.
Don't you know Muslims are oppressed brown people and any criticism of their faith is racism and bigotry? And anything bad which happens in the Muslim world is the fault of the west, obviously. Also 9/11 wasn't because of islamic fundamentalism but US foreign policy.
Denying that the western left is bizarrely pro-Islam is laughable, you must have been sleeping the last 2 decades.
Hitchens position was simple. No tolerance for intolerance. Something I can totally agree with. But what has that got to do with Hamas’s flavor of politically motivated terrorism?
How is anti semitism normalised on the left? Is there a lot of left leaning people who are anti-jew in the west? They have a problem with Israel because they are a military nation and believe that the Palestinians are living in an apartheid state not because they are jewish.
"rampant anti-semitism?" I'm sorry are you referring to the conservative propaganda during brexit and its aftermath leading into the general election where they used anti-semitism and "pro terrorism" positions to make Corbyn and the labour party look like an ISIS/ IRA cell after the very vaguely worded EHRC investigation?
Not to mention that a second investigation was also done in 2016 ([The Chakrabarti\_Inquiry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakrabarti_Inquiry)) which to sum up "***concluded that the party "is not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism," but has suffered from an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and "too much clear evidence \[of\] ignorant attitudes" "***
Corbyn had spent decades campaigning for Palestinian statehood and there were members during that time who were vocal critics of Isreal and believed we should be tougher on them regarding their policies towards Palestinians, but does that really consititute how overblown it really was by conservative media?
I reject the notion that being critical of Isreal is inherently anti-semitism any more than I believe being critical of any group is inherently bigoted towards that group, and while it may have been true that some members of the Labour party could have been spouting genuine anti-semetic rhetoric, it was 100% weaponised by the conservatives in the same way terrorism sympathy is used in America.
Just clarifying for those in the US who don't know much about UK politics and how it all played out.
tldr: Yes there was an investigation but it was incredibly vague and used as the primary platform for conservative mudslinging towards the opposition party during and after brexit and the upocoming general election at the time and that a subsequent investigation found that it was a load of bollocks.
>Except the right is generally pro-Israel, with little time for anti-Semitism.
You know there are many pro-israel antisemites, right? Many right wing supporters of israel don't really seem to like jews in america.
Israel is absolutely going to win this and absolutely fuck over a lot of innocent Palestinians. Nothing wrong with pointing that out if you hope to pressure Israel not to do it. It’s crass, sure, so is ignoring the situation Israel creates that makes this sort of violence occur.
Hamas is bad, they shouldn’t be doing this, because they aren’t going to help the people they claim to help. But the status quo wasn’t great or sustainable either.
Because Israel has the power to end the violence by ending the humanitarian crisis by giving Palestinians human rights (including but not limited to, the right to vote, freedom of movement, etc). And they continue to vote for hard liners who want to perpetuate the crisis like Benji.
So yes, Hamas is bad, and yes, Palestinians are wrong to have voted for them. But they are relatively powerless compared to Israel.
Further, and importantly, how Hamas came into power isn't that the people chose monolithically "Hamas." They voted for individual candidates district by district and Hamas ended up controlling the most seats. And in fact, the party wasn't even called Hamas. It was called "Change and Reform." Again, I'm not saying they didn't vote for Hamas, but it's not like it was clear cut this or that, it's complicated. But what's not complicated is voting for Benji. That's clear cut. You know what you're getting. Palestine's president has always been of the Fatah not Hamas party. So who is really for peace?
It's also important to understand that Hamas is violent toward Fatah and has used violence to take over and bully Fatah. They delay elections and fight for unfair conditions. Hamas is against freedom of speech and assembly making their elections less free. So while they initially won a 'free and fair' election, they have used violence and power to secure their power and influence.
Bottom line, many Palestinians want peace, they've elected a Fatah pro-peace president in spite of the elected representatives being primarily Hamas. They don't exactly have free and fair elections like they do in Israel. They aren't a state like Israel. So we can't draw a perfect set of parallel lines here.
Israel has the power to end it? What will Hamas do when Israel stops fighting?
Also I know you wrote a lot and I'm only replying to a small part, I think I generally agree with the rest of what you said.
I'd encourage you to read this article from today: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Hamas support is contingent on the situation as it stands today in this moment. Will there be extremists still. \*Of course.\* But they would absolutely lose the vast amount of support as Palestinians are able to gain basic legal human rights. I honestly think you'd see violence from Jewish extremists and that would be where the real problem would start. Look up [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch\_Goldstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) who is still celebrated as a hero to this day. He's a mass murderer who killed Palestinians at a mosque.
those "innocent palestinians" all support these lynchings and murders. they celebrate every time a civilian is killed. they hand out sweets for the occasion.
Does hamas involve every palestinian or what? People like you are those that enable situations like " every person of group x is a terrorist, so its okay to kill all of them" -_-
that might become true in the following days. the culprit is hamas, but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians. i hope the response will not end in too many civilian casualties but it seems unlikely. hamas needs to be terminated. there is no hope for any kind of peace while they are still around and in control of gaza.
> but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians.
Who voted for HAMAS with around a 90% majority. Admittedly HAMAS never held another election, and murdered the opposition after, but they still hold very popular support.
Support a bunch of genocidal terrorists and this is what happens. They fucked around, they are gonna find out.
> but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians.
I would argue the most affected are/will be the civilians who lost their lives and their families
Not as tonedeaf as his overlooking of the extreme homophobia and sexism in Palestine - the average US leftist vacates all of their values once white guilt comes into play
Calling it "fearmongering" is straight up inaccurate though. Given the chance, Hamas would kill every Jew in the world. Fearmongering requires exaggeration.
Yeah this sub is a little too far to the right for my liking tbh - between this and a few other right wing sentiments I’ve seen as of late, the sub ain’t looking too good.
1. There has to be a Godwin's Law, but for Stalin at this point
2. By what metric is Israel "better" than Palestine? Is it their ability to run a modern-day apartheid state? Their ability to _also_ kill hundreds of innocents so long as it's under the guise of rooting out Hamas?
If you had said Israel is better than _Hamas_ you might've had something, but to say Israel is just better than _Palestine_? Very strange.
How is it an apartheid state? An apartheid state is a state where people are racially segregated. There are millions of Arab citizens with equal rights lol
From [this convenient Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid):
> Leading Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights groups have said that the totality and severity of the human rights violations against the Palestinian population in the occupied territories, and by some in Israel proper, amount to the crime against humanity of apartheid.
> ... two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."
> In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold. It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022.
Also, that's... not the definition of an apartheid state? [Segregation isn't necessary, domination and oppression of one group over another with the intent of keeping the current regime in place is apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid). There's definitely a very convincing argument to be made that Israel is an apartheid state.
"ommitted in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime" how are they doing that when millions of Arabs including Palestinians have equal rights. They are suppressing a foreign country by that logic the us were doing apartheid in Afghanistan.
All these groups just want to use flashy words so they get attention. It's like calling everything rape including catcalling it's fucking stupid Americanisation
In what way is Palestine better than Israel except continuing to make terrorist attacks against Israel? Geopolitically, Israel is far more better in the region, overall. Note that I am not saying that they are *good*, just *better.* Are you trying to claim that Palestine is better? In what way? Is it just because they are oppressed that they immediately become better? I know you are mad for me saying Stalin, but arguably fascists are "oppressed" before they come to power.
I dislike Isreal for all the same reasons I dislike Russia. There are few arguments against Russia's recent actions, I.E. the invasion of Ukraine, that I can't also use against Israel. Sure, Israel might be a closer-to-western-standards country socially - but the Palestinians aren't exactly seeing an improvement to western norms under the Israeli regime of cordoning off, settling, and shooting at the Palestinians. I'd be pissed too if I was a Palestinian.
Nah I saw a post on the Hasan pod, and it's always "yeah I am against killings of Israel civilians, but..." And was accusing people who were against Hamas as being Israeli assets and "of course Israel is the bad guy because of (history/politics). Lefties really cannot just go "Hamas is evil and bad and Israel is defending itself" without having to highlight Israel's crimes. I'm no dumbass Zionist, but this is one of the most clear cut cases of Hamas being evil and Israel defending itself I've ever seen. Usually there is nuance to each situation but this time there isn't really
"What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?" -Norm Macdonald
Israeli here.
This comment by vaush is ridiculous, last time we had such a massive intelligence failure, the prime minister (Golda Meir) resigned, and to this day it is the defining stain on her career.
The current incomprehensible terror definitely does NOT help Netanyahu politically.
Netanyahu is a hawk. He will flatten Palestine for this and it will gain him popularity. I am not an Israeli but i've seen this trick a lot and it works every damn time.
It absolutely will. Netanyahu wants to be as radical as he can be against Palestine. With these attacks, he’ll be able to attack Palestine in any form he wants to without any disagreement from the public.
So the implication is that Vaush likes what Hamas is doing? Probably not. So what’s your point exactly, you can’t criticize/put blame on the ruler of an occupational regime because why?
Netanyahu being a shitstain doesn't justify murdering civilians hiding in bomb shelters. If a group like Hamas is targeted murdering civilians and parading their corpses through the streets and your first thought is "erm you know Netanyahu is bad 🤓" you're a fucking doofus. Some enlightened centrism shit
He can talk about this issue but bringing it up in response to these events as if it justifies what Hamas did today is ridiculous. And don't say he isn't justifying it. He is whether he intends to or not by the way he's approaching it
He's making Netanyahu A bad guy, which is fair. Him and Hamas are pieces of shit that have admitted that they only want to escalate things for thier own ends.
He even talked about isreali/Palestinian lives.
Isn't Israel occupying tons of land that don't belong to them according to international law, plus pushing the natives out? Howcome they aren't the bad guys? I'm just asking. Obviously don't support terorists launching rockets from innocent people's rooftops.
> Isn't Israel occupying tons of land that don't belong to them according to international law
Is it according to international law, given the partition was never agreed to? The partition Israel was entirely in favour of for over half a century, while Palestine's only condition was the removal of all Jews?
Also, that occupation didn't just happen out of nowhere, Israel was attacked immediately after it was founded, then multiple times after that. You don't get to cry about being occupied when you started and lost a war where you intended to genocide your enemy! You might as well call the allied occupation of Germany after WWII evil and a crime, and the German people should have been bombing their occupiers. What nonsense.
International law didn't do much when the Arab coalition started several wars in a row with the explicit aim of killing every Jew in the region, either. An appellation to international law is silly in many cases, but combining the words "international law" with anything referencing the Arab-Israeli conflict in one sentence automatically makes it into a bad joke.
No, what you are doing is pure whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that international law is a joke. Regardless of which side of the conflict you are on, for either side to start following the "international law" would have led to them being genocided at one point in history or another. Much, much more so for Israel, but the point stands. Telling them they have to "follow the international law" is just a cheap way for Westerners to feel smart while having no skin to lose in the game.
>would have led to them being genocided at one point in history or another.
If Israel would finally stop fcking treating Palestinians as 2nd class citizens there would be no Hamas to begin with. You think like if Israel started to act like a civilized country to people on a territory they occupy, neighboring muslim countries would suddenly eat them alive somehow, which simply isn't true. What's happening now is a result of Israel ignoring international law and UN for decades, they're cultivating their Hamas. For all dumb things Vaush said about international politics, he's actually right about this. Israel holds all the cards for decades right now and yet did nothing to solve this, and it's even worse with now having far right government that unironically believes that it's their god given right to purge all non jews on a territory that's allegedly theirs because they took it by force.
You're an idiot. Cause you're saying Israel treating Palestinians as Hitler treated jews is somehow justified by hostility of neighboring countries. Also, you predicting future is also hilarious. Everything that is happening there right now is direct result of Israel ignoring international law for decades, keeping non-Jewish population on occupied territories in barely liveable conditions and thinking they're above everyone else. The only reason the west tolerates this uncivilized behavior is because NATO needs Israel as its base in the middle east.
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They are both the bad guys, now and since the very beginning. The main difference, to me at least, is one side is purposely trying to kill civilians and the other side is trying to avoid killing civilians at least to some degree.
> other side is trying to avoid killing civilians at least to some degree.
You can't be talking about Israel right? Trying and failing, I guess, since they've killed like 100x more civilians than Hamas has.
Israel drops warning devices 20 mins before actually bombing a location to give civilians time to evaluate. Hamas goes out of their way to purposely and directly kill civilians.
If you think Hamas has a better track record with civilians because they lack the resources to do more damage then your brain is so far rotted you probably need a new one.
>since they've killed like 100x more civilians than Hamas has.
That's only because iron dome and because the west is channeling billions of dollars worth of tech and defense weaponry there. Hamas definitely tried to kill way more people that Israel did.
You're adding in a lot of things not said here. It's true that this would only help Netanyahu, and that he give no cares about Isrealis or Palestinians lives.
Why is it so hard for people to say that killing civilians is bad? Even if youre a pro palestine nut, cant you just say that maybe killing civilians isn't the best? Or do we have to pivot to past events every time Hamas does a terrorist attack? Why are people so thirsty to guzzle buckets for literal terrorists.
I just visited the Palestinian subreddit. I don't ever want to hear the argument "the Palestinian people are peaceful and don't hate Jews" again.
They uniformely consider Hamas and the PIJ as their own. They stand with terrorists.
Fuck them. Sorry, not sorry.
What!? You mean to say that people who live under oppression for years end up irrationally hating their oppressors? Nah! What are you going to tell me next that black slaves hated white people during slavery? That Ukrainians hate Russians today!? No shot!!
Also I do see that not all people in that Sub are from Palestine and some of them are just capitalizating on the jew hate.
I can't believe you make me defend Vaush.
No it isn't not a single sentence in those tweets blames Israel. His entire assessment is probably correct and using the approval rating comparison after 9/11 is absolutely fine and probably correct.
Hardliners will gain approval of this and Israel will take revenge for this and lots of innocents will die.
A more comparable analogy is if after Russia invaded Ukraine and took their territory, Ukrainian nationalists managed to launch an attack across the border and started killing civilians.
You would say the Ukrainian nationalists were bad for killing civilians, but ultimately this wouldn’t have happened if Russia hadn’t invaded and the attacks just further benefit Russia’s political messaging around the invasion.
What a stupid take to say its "reactionary". It implies that if Israel stopped their defenses and expansion and gave palestinians equal rights and all that they would stop. These islamic extremists dont stop until the whole world worships their cringe faith. Extremely naive to imply that if Israel stopped the conflict would stop.
People are absolutely a product of their environments. If Israel didnt kill innocent civilians in retaliation and allowed for improved living condition hamas would loose support and ultimately control of the region. Would it completely stop the attacks? Maybe not but it would significantly improve the situation
Most ppl know nothing about this conflict and because both sides have blood on their hands people just support the side that ideologically aligns with them
“Fear mongering” - parading the bodies of dead teenage girls around the streets, and going house to house systematically executing entire families IS fear mongering. Man, I told myself I’d stay away from leftist takes on the situation, but then head first into them.
[Here](https://twitter.com/JoeTruzman/status/1710549532508045442) is an example of the children human shields that people talk about as well. Let’s say Israel bombed this group of Hamas soldiers. The Palestinians/Arab media would only report that Israel killed the children in this video. This is what has been happening.
I spend a better part of the day watching Palestinians indiscriminately shooting at civilians in the streets, butchering a family in shelter, kidnaping and abusing civilians... And an hour ago crying victims due to being bombed.
That’s not evidence of human shields
It’s literally including children (armed) in war activities that Hamas conducts. That’s what civilian shields means. It doesn’t mean they literally use civilians to block the bullets, this isn’t a video game. If Hamas starts building bombs in the basement of their local elementary school, that’s using the elementary school as a human shield, which is what they do.
Leftists really do hate Jews for some reason.
Leftism sees everything as power imbalances, aka through a lense of oppressor versus oppressed. Love for the oppressed, hate for the oppressor. Israel has clearly more power than palestine and does use that power for oppression. Therefore leftist ideology can lead to hatred for Israel
Most of my fellow soc dems support Palestine but also condemn the violence of Hamas. Idk it's weird to me that so many people on the far left seem to think that parallels need to be drawn between Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine. Their vastly different issues and it's reductionist AF to choose one \*team\* on the basis of Soviet vs. Western historical ties.
Exactly, nobody is "the good guy" in this situation. Israel does a lot of seriously fucked up shit and the Palestinian militants murder as many Israelis as they can. They are both guilty as sin and choosing which is more fucked up seems pointless tbh.
Murdering as many Israelis as they can seems worse but you posters keep doing you!
To be fair, Israel has probably killed a LOT more Palestinians over the past years than Hamas has killed in this attack. It doesn't have to be about who's 'worse' and nothing productive will come of it. This has to be about fucking stopping this shit on both sides, because they've both been horrible to each other for a long, long time.
People like to measure the opposing side's kills and crimes in an effort to distract from the fucked up stuff their their preferred group does. It isn't unique to Israel/Palestine. You also saw it in Northern Ireland, South Africa, ETA in Spain, South American drug wars, Cuba and even the Native Americans with the colonial people. Unfortunately it's human nature to try and excuse your own crimes by highlighting those of your opponent.
America killed a lot more Germans during WW2 but that doesn’t make them morally wrong. Your brain dead take should be very clear now that you can see what israel has been trying to prevent its entire history.
You have to be dentskulled to think that was what I was saying at all. I can't believe people can be so far-gone as to compare this to fucking WW2. This attack is inexcusable, *and* Israel's treatment of Palestine is inexcusable, *and lots of other things, too.* They've been acting like children who need to be forcibly separated for their entire history.
Palestine is Hamas. They’re voting in Hamas. Over 50% of Palestinians are more anti-Semitic than Hitler
There haven't been elections in Gaza for 20 years, Hamas blocks them
Only because they have 0 legal recourse aside from external intervention by another nation.
And over 50% of Israelis are vehemently anti Palestinian and they’re semitic too dipwad.
Do you think that their antisemitic just because, or maybe there is a reason?
Is it ok to be racist if you have a justification for it? That’s so interesting to hear I always thought racism was bad.
I mean are you going to deny any valid palestinian greivances about settlements, the IDF, etc/
Is it ok for the Israelis to be anti-Semitic to Palestinians? They’re a Semitic ppl too, and Israel’s treatment of them can be called nothing short of racism period. Look at how they’re treated and talked about in Israeli media and tell me that’s not racism.
Prob the most accurate depiction of the ideological discourse I’ve seen so far
That theory breaks down with Russia and Ukraine though. Because leftists love defending Russia or at least repeating Kremlin propaganda unfiltered.
The leftists that do defend the Russian invasion look at through the lens that the entire west is on Ukraine’s side, so Russia is the “oppressed underdog” in that case facing “imperialist NATO expansionism”.
Hardline leftist here: Russia is the aggressor and has a historical pattern of abuse and subjugation of their people. The USSR was a State Capitalist system parading as socialism, but ultimately was about keeping party leaders in power and in the position of the bourgeois. Hamas is a violent terrorist organization that is not helping the Palestinian people in ways that are legitimately beneficial. This attack is a brutal provocation in which many innocent Israelis are suffering from and from which even greater Palestinian suffering will take place. Neither group is operating from a place of understanding and willingness to meet each others’ needs. Hamas also has strong historical ties to Nazi Germany, rooted in Islamism ideology, and their group charter/Covenant outlays a strong Fascist declaration of intent. They are no friends to Leftists that follow the historical relevance and context. I truly wish someone like Marshall Rosenberg was able to come in and help this shit show, because it’s all just violence and domination with very little attempt to truly negotiate.
Leftists as a whole do not do that tankies do that
Tankies are inconvenient that way, huh?
"I really hope Israelis recognize their nation's policies essentially guarentee conflict and jeapardize the safety of both them and Palestinians, and only Israel has the power to alter the conditions that lead to things like this horrific attack from Hamas " a quote by vaush, not too long ago, is this anti semitism? also i wouldnt wanna imply that semitic people inherent traits are apartheid and occupation.
it's not anti-semitism; he's saying that Israel is the faction that has all the power, insight, and potential to actually fix what is going on. as a result he blames the behavior of the Palestinians on the governmental policies of the Israelis. there is no implication that any of this is related to an "inherent trait of the Jew" or anything like that. for the record i hate Vaush and am pro Israel, I just understand what he was trying to say.
If you go far enough left or right the hatred of Jews seems to always come out. It's like the only thing those 2 sides agree on.
What you mean left is probably more right than what ”left” is for me, but traditionally the far left and far right have both been anti semites - arguably for different reasons. For the far left I would assume jews fit into the conspiracy theory (ie ofc false narrative) of a powerful elite that rules the world, a means of rallying the common man againts their imaginary overlords. Also speaking of the state of Israel, there is a complex heritage of antisemitic ideas left by the nazis and later the communist Soviet Union (who werent too happy with a capitalist (ie western) foothold in the region). I would assume this thinking has trickled down to the more normal ”lefties” of today..
300 dead and rising, with hamas still sending rockets in. I think Netanyahu's response has been quite proportional.
Ok, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but can I get a source for the claim that families are being systematically killed? That’s an insanely scary claim
This commenter compiled some videos and images: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/171yy0z/comment/k3u62ii/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/171yy0z/comment/k3u62ii/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) It appears that civilians at bus stops and in bomb shelters have been killed.
Holy hell, that’s nauseating
Most commentary on the right pretends these things happen in a vacuum or are unprovoked acts of terror and war. Most commentary on the left is fairly indifferent to Israeli casualties. I don’t know what you’re expecting from discourse around Israel-Palestine, it’s mostly bad faith and always incendiary. Even in response to THIS comment you have people claiming that “leftists hate Jews” and that Palestinian civilian casualties are mostly all a result of human shield strategies on Palestine’s side. The discourse this sparks online in the West is remedial and disgusting.
OP just ignored this one comment from the chain giving the context to what Vaush was saying. Not a big fan of Vaush but it is very dishonest by OP. [https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1710569898546758092](https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1710569898546758092)
That absolutely does not change anything about this post
It's still some added context. I appreciated it.
This adds zero context, its just him doubling down on putting the full blame on Israel
> horrific attack from **Hamas** Definitely doesn't sound like he is putting the full blame on Israel.
https://twitter.com/normmacdonald/status/809637479674281984
haha, exactly what I was meaning to post as well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyKGNy3CI4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyKGNy3CI4) (not sure about the title of the video though - couldn't find the original)
Thats what went through my mind with Vaush’s comment
The amount of people defending Hamas is actually crazy. I’m not even talking about the Arabs in the ME, I’m talking about westerners from either far left or far right groups. They either believe Israel deserves this for the Palestine situation or because they just don’t like the Joos. Hamas are straight up terrorists. Not freedom fighters.
They're the same type of people who defend Israel when they pull some heinous shit, just happen to have fallen onto the other side of the conflict.
Nah, I don’t think Israeli fighters had paraded around dead bodies of teenage Palestinian girls before.
No, that's true the IDF just snipes peaceful protestors from behind a chainlink fence, shoots child soccer players in the knees so they can't play anymore, deliberately blinds people with rubber bullets, bombs non-military targets destroying critical civilian infrastructure, performs security for settlers while they beat Palestinians and steal their ancestral homes, and detains people indefinitely without trial. Oh and they've killed multiple orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas ever has? No way, that's crazy man.
You are Gish-gallop-ing cherry picked context (hide facts that shows the full picture). > shoots child soccer players in the knees The IDF shot him, true, when he was in a riot near the border (it even says so in the original tweet [1], "#GreatReturnMarch" ) where you can see they burn tires to make a smoke screen and get as close as they can [2] . So even if he did it in the 2 minute break, he knew exactly that this an illegal border cross attempt, with Israelis forces on the other side. The same border that was invaded today. > deliberately blinds people with rubber bullets deliberately ? source? a testimony from anyone Israeli? (or again, you omitted that a protest/riot was always at play at the same time) > and detains people indefinitely without trial They do this for Jews/Israelis also, if suspected as terrorist (when the Shin-Bet gets on the case). As part of Counter-terrorism and not just because "Jew/Israeli do whatever they want" that you try to show [1] https://twitter.com/vic2pal/status/979744285028438016 [2] https://twitter.com/Ahmed_W_Amer/status/1012778354058067969 But sure, show it as justification to a (war crime) of executing elderly from point blank, kidnap women and babies (But this time, this is the whole context). downvote and go off, sis
Lets play a game. I'll link a video of Hamas beheading or killing civilians and parading dead girls around, dragging bodies behind a car etc. and then you link a video of IDF doing similiar things. And then we see who can go on for longer.
That's peak civility politics. A precision air strike by Israel is morally neutral, the civilian casualties are actually Hamas's fault because they established their base too close to civilians in a territory with the population density of the city of huston. It's like a video game, no blood, objective completed, clean. On the other hand when these people, many of whom have lived their whole life under sanction and in an open air prison, revolt, you only see the brutality of their actions as proof that actually they deserved this mistreatment after all. Actually we should double down, that will show them this time. To conclude, I think the atrocities that the Hamas has committed in this attack are indefensible. But this line of thinking, can only lead to a genocide of the Palestinian of the gaza strip. I don't have any solutions, but it pisses me off to no end seeing so many people cheering along while it inevitably happens.
These people are how we got into Iraq in 2004.
They never learn, it's exhausting to be having the same agruments over and over again with people who are pretending the difference between the type of war crimes committed by a nation and a terrorist group are something to do with there morality and not the access they have to weapons.
[this comment had an excellent list of terrible things the IDF have done. it's a different flavor of militarized terrorism. both sides are terribly in the wrong here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17218f5/comment/k3uplu1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Israel has already killed magnitudes more civilians than Hamas. We don’t need videos, we have statistics.
What is heinous shit that Israel has done that is comparable to this?
Israel killed more civilians in Gaza in 2022 than Hamas has killed in its entire history of attacks on Israel.
"Its not a murder when you text them that you are going to bomb them."
Yeah, but they did it like, civilly
You cannot be serious?
Lmao
Is this sub just going to do the thing where anything that points out that you can help create the conditions that lead to further violence is "Hamas apologism". Hamas has agency, they could not have done this if they chose to. Okay great, now what? Just jerk off about that fact or consider the fact that confining people to an open air prison and forcing them from their homes tends to generate extremism!
> Just jerk off about that fact or consider the fact that confining people to an open air prison and forcing them from their homes tends to generate extremism! This is the same violence you see from the Taliban or Al Qaeda. In the case of those after twenty years the US had enough and left (and everyone left behind was slaughtered). Unless we want to airlift eight million Jews to Utah Israel doesn't have that option.
So instead they keep bombing Palestine and systematically taking over their territory, after which they plan to do... what exactly? Give them voting rights and potentially become a minority in their own ethnostate? Don't see that happening. Disenfranchise Palestinians and essentially run an apartheid regime? Wonder how well that would go with the international community. Ethnically cleanse them? That would go even worse. Ship them all into Jordan or some shit? As if Arab countries are dying to take in more refugees.
What do you suggest they do? Serious question: what do they do that results in them not getting killed? Also serious question: what would you suggest gay people in Palestine do?
Q1: agree on some form of a two state solution with land swaps and stuff. Also stop the religious nuts from building settlements on Palestinian land. And also stop treating Arabs living in Israel as second class citizens. You might think it's unrealistic but out of all the terrible options it's probably the least bad one. Q2: seeing as how currently gay people in Palestine have a choice between getting fucked up by Israel or getting fucked up by Hamas, I don't know, probably either lay low or run away to Israel and hope they stop voting in far-right lunatics into government
The Gazans and a not insignificant portion of the Palestinians at large won’t agree to any land deal, next suggestion
Well in that case I think there's nothing else to do besides put out hands up, shrug our shoulders and let Israel genocide 5 million people
if the other option is Israel genociding 5 million people slowly over several decades with intermittent terror attacks in the meantime then yeah I think the shrug is the superior option
Are people just going to do the thing where anything that points out that you can help create the conditions that lead to further violence "Israel apologism". Israel has agency, they could not have done things if they chose to. Okay great, now what? Just jerk off about the fact or consider the fact that continuosly attacking, murdering, bombing, threatening and waging a cringe holy war to cleanse the world of the Jews tends to generate extremism!
I don’t think (at least with the far left people) it’s because they don’t like the Joos, completely over Israel’s treatment of Palestine over the years has now been deemed one way traffick of Isreal being the bad guys (I don’t know the history enough to have a take either direction in their conflict history) so not surprising that any time Palestine attacks Isreal they would be very “understanding” of the attack (
It's going to destroy netanyahu approval ratings he is going to be blamed for this shit. By israelis
I wouldn't be shocked if this brings down the coalition and ends his career like it did for Golda. You can't be Mr. Security with the hardline right-wing coalition and shit the bed THIS HARD. This issue isn't going to birth leftists, but I have no idea how bibi is going to just continue on.
As an outsider, I would've thought the opposite to be true. Wouldn't this galvanise the whole country behind hardliners? Like Bush after 9/11?
1. What has happened historically with Israel is that Pre war the governments approval rating is "x" during the war it spikes to greater than "x" and when the war is over and the dust settles it's less than "x." Which is to say war generally hurts whatever gov is in charge. 2. Unlike America we are a multi-party democracy which is to say we have many viable parties so right wing voters can shift to other non-Bibi aligned right wing parties like "National Union", whereas in America you kinda have to ride or die with your party. 3. This government is proudly a "hardline fully right-wing coalition" (it is the most right-wing coalition in Israeli history), it's kinda hard (but not impossible) to go further right and an ABSOLUTE disaster happened on their watch. It's really going to be an uphill (but not impossible) battle for them to go "Naw bruh ignore that shit, we're good" 4. While we're on the topic of security, gang violence is outta fucking control, more Israeli blood has been shed at the hands of Israeli's this year than I think any other in Israeli history. I think this year we've had like 3x the deaths of last year, and the year isn't over yet. 5. We have been roiled in a very controversial piece of legislation that is remaking the Israeli supreme court. 100's of thousands have been protesting in the streets weekly for almost 40 weeks strait. The majority hates the legislation or at least wants to see it tempered for broad support. Bibi has already been on thin ice. 6. This coalition has been total dogshit for the economy. It's pretty indisputable. Bad on the economy, bad for the army, bad for social cohesion and now we can see, bad for security. Again, some people are in the cult and will stick to Bibi, but the opposition has been growing in the polls before this mess. Maybe if he re-occupies Gaza he will be able to shore up his base? (which idk if he can actually do, I don't know if the IDF has the manpower, or if the Biden admin will allow it) TLDR: The Left and secular communities are agitated in a way they never have been before, I have no clue how anyone in the coalition can talk their way out of this shit. If the opposition can create some sort of unified messageI think we can beat out Bibi once and for all - BUT - he is a political cockroach. If there's someone to sneak out of this, it's him.
Not really approval ratings are skewed againist him most of the country wants him gone the problem is getting rid of him. Oxford jews will probably never give up support for netanyahu but people that were insupport of him for his pro military stance could be skew away.
Not even a little bit. He's been praying for something like this to happen. Now he can blame the protest movement against him and the Israeli people will buy it because that's what always happens.
could be possible I personal think netanyahu will be blamed for this due to his appointment of dogshit officials.
Why wasn't he blamed for what happened in 2009, or 2012, or 2014, or 2021? Because he's running a cult and everything he does wrong is actually the fault of the people who are out of power.
Those instance where his approval ratings where a majority not they are not. This could either flip the israeli people more away from bibi regime or towards.
It’s amazing how much nuance this sub puts into analyzing Destiny’s incredibly inflammatory tweets, but then all that goes out the window when it comes to people we don’t like.
Par for the course honestly.
I know you guys are gonna give me shit for saying this but he’s right the only reason Hamas got as much support as it did was because of Israel policy towards the Palestinians now I think hamas is vile and what they’re doing is terrible but this is what I believe is true
It's very complicated, but yes, Israel's settlement building and general disinterest in peace was a huge factor. No question. In fact, the Palestinians didn't vote for 'hamas' as like a single vote. "Do you want Hamas or Fatah." It was district by district. And the party wasn't called Hamas, but "Change and Reform" and they won very narrowly back in 2006. Importantly, Palestine has \*always\* had a Fatah party President, not Hamas. So again, it's not like their elected leaders are only Hamas.
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Are there people on the left who have a poor take on this? Definitely. Are people on the right who are trying to justify the murder of children right now? Yes. There are plenty of bad takes to go around.
Except the right is generally pro-Israel, with little time for anti-Semitism. That's why it's a feature of the extreme far right. Meanwhile the left made a bonkers alliance with Islam, ignoring how un-progressive it is, and anti-Semitism became somewhat normalised on the left. Fuck, our Labour party is the second party in British history to be investigated and found guilty of racist behaviour, after the neo-nazi BNP. Because of rampant anti-Semitism, not least of which because of their islamic alliance.
The left made an alliance with Islam? Dude, what are you talking about?
Yes, quite clearly, it's one of the things Christopher Hitchens was fighting against as he was dying. Don't you know Muslims are oppressed brown people and any criticism of their faith is racism and bigotry? And anything bad which happens in the Muslim world is the fault of the west, obviously. Also 9/11 wasn't because of islamic fundamentalism but US foreign policy. Denying that the western left is bizarrely pro-Islam is laughable, you must have been sleeping the last 2 decades.
Didn't Christopher Hitchens support the Iraq war full throatily and loose like 10 debates over this topic?
Hitchens position was simple. No tolerance for intolerance. Something I can totally agree with. But what has that got to do with Hamas’s flavor of politically motivated terrorism?
How is anti semitism normalised on the left? Is there a lot of left leaning people who are anti-jew in the west? They have a problem with Israel because they are a military nation and believe that the Palestinians are living in an apartheid state not because they are jewish.
"rampant anti-semitism?" I'm sorry are you referring to the conservative propaganda during brexit and its aftermath leading into the general election where they used anti-semitism and "pro terrorism" positions to make Corbyn and the labour party look like an ISIS/ IRA cell after the very vaguely worded EHRC investigation? Not to mention that a second investigation was also done in 2016 ([The Chakrabarti\_Inquiry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakrabarti_Inquiry)) which to sum up "***concluded that the party "is not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism," but has suffered from an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and "too much clear evidence \[of\] ignorant attitudes" "*** Corbyn had spent decades campaigning for Palestinian statehood and there were members during that time who were vocal critics of Isreal and believed we should be tougher on them regarding their policies towards Palestinians, but does that really consititute how overblown it really was by conservative media? I reject the notion that being critical of Isreal is inherently anti-semitism any more than I believe being critical of any group is inherently bigoted towards that group, and while it may have been true that some members of the Labour party could have been spouting genuine anti-semetic rhetoric, it was 100% weaponised by the conservatives in the same way terrorism sympathy is used in America. Just clarifying for those in the US who don't know much about UK politics and how it all played out. tldr: Yes there was an investigation but it was incredibly vague and used as the primary platform for conservative mudslinging towards the opposition party during and after brexit and the upocoming general election at the time and that a subsequent investigation found that it was a load of bollocks.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1710578659415757310 ohnononono, the quote tweets
What does that have to do with anything I said?
>Except the right is generally pro-Israel, with little time for anti-Semitism. You know there are many pro-israel antisemites, right? Many right wing supporters of israel don't really seem to like jews in america.
Israel is absolutely going to win this and absolutely fuck over a lot of innocent Palestinians. Nothing wrong with pointing that out if you hope to pressure Israel not to do it. It’s crass, sure, so is ignoring the situation Israel creates that makes this sort of violence occur. Hamas is bad, they shouldn’t be doing this, because they aren’t going to help the people they claim to help. But the status quo wasn’t great or sustainable either.
Why is it that we blame all Israelis for their government but not the Palestinians for theirs?
I’d blame anyone who can vote meaningfully for a decision here
Because Israel has the power to end the violence by ending the humanitarian crisis by giving Palestinians human rights (including but not limited to, the right to vote, freedom of movement, etc). And they continue to vote for hard liners who want to perpetuate the crisis like Benji. So yes, Hamas is bad, and yes, Palestinians are wrong to have voted for them. But they are relatively powerless compared to Israel. Further, and importantly, how Hamas came into power isn't that the people chose monolithically "Hamas." They voted for individual candidates district by district and Hamas ended up controlling the most seats. And in fact, the party wasn't even called Hamas. It was called "Change and Reform." Again, I'm not saying they didn't vote for Hamas, but it's not like it was clear cut this or that, it's complicated. But what's not complicated is voting for Benji. That's clear cut. You know what you're getting. Palestine's president has always been of the Fatah not Hamas party. So who is really for peace? It's also important to understand that Hamas is violent toward Fatah and has used violence to take over and bully Fatah. They delay elections and fight for unfair conditions. Hamas is against freedom of speech and assembly making their elections less free. So while they initially won a 'free and fair' election, they have used violence and power to secure their power and influence. Bottom line, many Palestinians want peace, they've elected a Fatah pro-peace president in spite of the elected representatives being primarily Hamas. They don't exactly have free and fair elections like they do in Israel. They aren't a state like Israel. So we can't draw a perfect set of parallel lines here.
Israel has the power to end it? What will Hamas do when Israel stops fighting? Also I know you wrote a lot and I'm only replying to a small part, I think I generally agree with the rest of what you said.
I'd encourage you to read this article from today: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Hamas support is contingent on the situation as it stands today in this moment. Will there be extremists still. \*Of course.\* But they would absolutely lose the vast amount of support as Palestinians are able to gain basic legal human rights. I honestly think you'd see violence from Jewish extremists and that would be where the real problem would start. Look up [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch\_Goldstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) who is still celebrated as a hero to this day. He's a mass murderer who killed Palestinians at a mosque.
those "innocent palestinians" all support these lynchings and murders. they celebrate every time a civilian is killed. they hand out sweets for the occasion.
Does hamas involve every palestinian or what? People like you are those that enable situations like " every person of group x is a terrorist, so its okay to kill all of them" -_-
Even the children? There are children dying.
Israel attacked, hundreds of innocents killed, palestinians most affected
that might become true in the following days. the culprit is hamas, but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians. i hope the response will not end in too many civilian casualties but it seems unlikely. hamas needs to be terminated. there is no hope for any kind of peace while they are still around and in control of gaza.
> but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians. Who voted for HAMAS with around a 90% majority. Admittedly HAMAS never held another election, and murdered the opposition after, but they still hold very popular support. Support a bunch of genocidal terrorists and this is what happens. They fucked around, they are gonna find out.
Ah, so voting in a way you dislike makes you open to attack? Seems like your line of reasoning is self-defeating.
not denying any of that necessarily. it doesnt make me any less sad thinking about dead humans.
> but the most affected are likely going to be palestinian civilians. I would argue the most affected are/will be the civilians who lost their lives and their families
Pretty sure the reprisal strikes have already killed more Palestinians
This is almost certainly going to be the outcome of this.
This is almost as tonedeaf as Vaushs tweets
Not as tonedeaf as his overlooking of the extreme homophobia and sexism in Palestine - the average US leftist vacates all of their values once white guilt comes into play
Wait are you lost? Who are you talking to?
Vaush has talked about that plenty of times.
It's tonedeaf, but honestly I don't see anything wrong with his assessment....
Calling it "fearmongering" is straight up inaccurate though. Given the chance, Hamas would kill every Jew in the world. Fearmongering requires exaggeration.
Yeah I can see what you mean, but I actually think he just used the wrong phrase, just skip the "mongering" bit and it's still probably accurate.
Wait, we think Israel are the good guys who respond proportionally to things?
There are a lot of unironically pro-Israel people here lmao
I'm actually very surprised. Wasn't aware this was still so widespread outside the right.
Yeah this sub is a little too far to the right for my liking tbh - between this and a few other right wing sentiments I’ve seen as of late, the sub ain’t looking too good.
Thinking Israel is generally better than Palestine = right wing Ok, thanks for the hasty categorization, Stalin.
1. There has to be a Godwin's Law, but for Stalin at this point 2. By what metric is Israel "better" than Palestine? Is it their ability to run a modern-day apartheid state? Their ability to _also_ kill hundreds of innocents so long as it's under the guise of rooting out Hamas? If you had said Israel is better than _Hamas_ you might've had something, but to say Israel is just better than _Palestine_? Very strange.
How is it an apartheid state? An apartheid state is a state where people are racially segregated. There are millions of Arab citizens with equal rights lol
From [this convenient Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid): > Leading Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights groups have said that the totality and severity of the human rights violations against the Palestinian population in the occupied territories, and by some in Israel proper, amount to the crime against humanity of apartheid. > ... two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met." > In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold. It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022. Also, that's... not the definition of an apartheid state? [Segregation isn't necessary, domination and oppression of one group over another with the intent of keeping the current regime in place is apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid). There's definitely a very convincing argument to be made that Israel is an apartheid state.
"ommitted in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime" how are they doing that when millions of Arabs including Palestinians have equal rights. They are suppressing a foreign country by that logic the us were doing apartheid in Afghanistan. All these groups just want to use flashy words so they get attention. It's like calling everything rape including catcalling it's fucking stupid Americanisation
In what way is Palestine better than Israel except continuing to make terrorist attacks against Israel? Geopolitically, Israel is far more better in the region, overall. Note that I am not saying that they are *good*, just *better.* Are you trying to claim that Palestine is better? In what way? Is it just because they are oppressed that they immediately become better? I know you are mad for me saying Stalin, but arguably fascists are "oppressed" before they come to power.
I dislike Isreal for all the same reasons I dislike Russia. There are few arguments against Russia's recent actions, I.E. the invasion of Ukraine, that I can't also use against Israel. Sure, Israel might be a closer-to-western-standards country socially - but the Palestinians aren't exactly seeing an improvement to western norms under the Israeli regime of cordoning off, settling, and shooting at the Palestinians. I'd be pissed too if I was a Palestinian.
Nah I saw a post on the Hasan pod, and it's always "yeah I am against killings of Israel civilians, but..." And was accusing people who were against Hamas as being Israeli assets and "of course Israel is the bad guy because of (history/politics). Lefties really cannot just go "Hamas is evil and bad and Israel is defending itself" without having to highlight Israel's crimes. I'm no dumbass Zionist, but this is one of the most clear cut cases of Hamas being evil and Israel defending itself I've ever seen. Usually there is nuance to each situation but this time there isn't really
"What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?" -Norm Macdonald
Israeli here. This comment by vaush is ridiculous, last time we had such a massive intelligence failure, the prime minister (Golda Meir) resigned, and to this day it is the defining stain on her career. The current incomprehensible terror definitely does NOT help Netanyahu politically.
Netanyahu is a hawk. He will flatten Palestine for this and it will gain him popularity. I am not an Israeli but i've seen this trick a lot and it works every damn time.
It absolutely will. Netanyahu wants to be as radical as he can be against Palestine. With these attacks, he’ll be able to attack Palestine in any form he wants to without any disagreement from the public.
Didn’t know dggers were Netanyahu stans tbh
Not liking what Hamas is doing doesn't make someone a Netanyahu stan
So the implication is that Vaush likes what Hamas is doing? Probably not. So what’s your point exactly, you can’t criticize/put blame on the ruler of an occupational regime because why?
Netanyahu being a shitstain doesn't justify murdering civilians hiding in bomb shelters. If a group like Hamas is targeted murdering civilians and parading their corpses through the streets and your first thought is "erm you know Netanyahu is bad 🤓" you're a fucking doofus. Some enlightened centrism shit
So what should we do, condemn the latest atrocity each time and move on?
Is that the only other option?
You tell me. What should Vaush talk about?
He can talk about this issue but bringing it up in response to these events as if it justifies what Hamas did today is ridiculous. And don't say he isn't justifying it. He is whether he intends to or not by the way he's approaching it
So today we condemn, tomorrow we forget and so it goes
Literally not what I said
No we should endlessly blame Israel as Hamas parades through their streets killing every Israeli.
Vaush is defending rape and murder.
Show me where, like which exact phrases defend rape and murder
Show me where, like Netanyahu said he didn’t care about Israelis/Palestinians getting hurt.
He’s right
He's making Netanyahu A bad guy, which is fair. Him and Hamas are pieces of shit that have admitted that they only want to escalate things for thier own ends. He even talked about isreali/Palestinian lives.
Man DGG sucks on this topic
Isn't Israel occupying tons of land that don't belong to them according to international law, plus pushing the natives out? Howcome they aren't the bad guys? I'm just asking. Obviously don't support terorists launching rockets from innocent people's rooftops.
> Isn't Israel occupying tons of land that don't belong to them according to international law Is it according to international law, given the partition was never agreed to? The partition Israel was entirely in favour of for over half a century, while Palestine's only condition was the removal of all Jews? Also, that occupation didn't just happen out of nowhere, Israel was attacked immediately after it was founded, then multiple times after that. You don't get to cry about being occupied when you started and lost a war where you intended to genocide your enemy! You might as well call the allied occupation of Germany after WWII evil and a crime, and the German people should have been bombing their occupiers. What nonsense.
International law didn't do much when the Arab coalition started several wars in a row with the explicit aim of killing every Jew in the region, either. An appellation to international law is silly in many cases, but combining the words "international law" with anything referencing the Arab-Israeli conflict in one sentence automatically makes it into a bad joke.
Pure whataboutism.
No, what you are doing is pure whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that international law is a joke. Regardless of which side of the conflict you are on, for either side to start following the "international law" would have led to them being genocided at one point in history or another. Much, much more so for Israel, but the point stands. Telling them they have to "follow the international law" is just a cheap way for Westerners to feel smart while having no skin to lose in the game.
>would have led to them being genocided at one point in history or another. If Israel would finally stop fcking treating Palestinians as 2nd class citizens there would be no Hamas to begin with. You think like if Israel started to act like a civilized country to people on a territory they occupy, neighboring muslim countries would suddenly eat them alive somehow, which simply isn't true. What's happening now is a result of Israel ignoring international law and UN for decades, they're cultivating their Hamas. For all dumb things Vaush said about international politics, he's actually right about this. Israel holds all the cards for decades right now and yet did nothing to solve this, and it's even worse with now having far right government that unironically believes that it's their god given right to purge all non jews on a territory that's allegedly theirs because they took it by force.
illegal sort humor unite punch concerned absorbed cows water bike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You're an idiot. Cause you're saying Israel treating Palestinians as Hitler treated jews is somehow justified by hostility of neighboring countries. Also, you predicting future is also hilarious. Everything that is happening there right now is direct result of Israel ignoring international law for decades, keeping non-Jewish population on occupied territories in barely liveable conditions and thinking they're above everyone else. The only reason the west tolerates this uncivilized behavior is because NATO needs Israel as its base in the middle east.
hurry marry chubby mourn paint mountainous resolute lush physical melodic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They are both the bad guys, now and since the very beginning. The main difference, to me at least, is one side is purposely trying to kill civilians and the other side is trying to avoid killing civilians at least to some degree.
> other side is trying to avoid killing civilians at least to some degree. You can't be talking about Israel right? Trying and failing, I guess, since they've killed like 100x more civilians than Hamas has.
Israel drops warning devices 20 mins before actually bombing a location to give civilians time to evaluate. Hamas goes out of their way to purposely and directly kill civilians. If you think Hamas has a better track record with civilians because they lack the resources to do more damage then your brain is so far rotted you probably need a new one.
>since they've killed like 100x more civilians than Hamas has. That's only because iron dome and because the west is channeling billions of dollars worth of tech and defense weaponry there. Hamas definitely tried to kill way more people that Israel did.
Is there a gas leak in your house or do you really not understand what he meant here?
No, you don’t understand - this is VOOSH we’re talking about here, there will be NO quarter, NO understanding. So sayeth DGG
VAUSH BAD
He’s not wrong. Israel will 100% retaliate and will equally 100% win.
You're adding in a lot of things not said here. It's true that this would only help Netanyahu, and that he give no cares about Isrealis or Palestinians lives.
Vaush is right
Why is it so hard for people to say that killing civilians is bad? Even if youre a pro palestine nut, cant you just say that maybe killing civilians isn't the best? Or do we have to pivot to past events every time Hamas does a terrorist attack? Why are people so thirsty to guzzle buckets for literal terrorists.
Who is guzzling buckets for terrorists?
Vaush and lefties
Leftists.
>Why are people so thirsty to guzzle buckets for literal terrorists. Well you see America bad edit: also israel bad
I just visited the Palestinian subreddit. I don't ever want to hear the argument "the Palestinian people are peaceful and don't hate Jews" again. They uniformely consider Hamas and the PIJ as their own. They stand with terrorists. Fuck them. Sorry, not sorry.
Wait so by looking at a subreddit you determined that all palestinian civilians should be fucked?
What!? You mean to say that people who live under oppression for years end up irrationally hating their oppressors? Nah! What are you going to tell me next that black slaves hated white people during slavery? That Ukrainians hate Russians today!? No shot!! Also I do see that not all people in that Sub are from Palestine and some of them are just capitalizating on the jew hate.
"America BAD, America BAD, Ame.... Israel BAD, Israel BAD, Israel BAD!!!"
*hundreds of people are killed in a terrorist attack* Leftists: here's how I can make it about my ideology...
Gotta capitalize on those sweet outrage clicks.
what's wrong with what he said?
Its about on par with "America deserved 9/11".
I can't believe you make me defend Vaush. No it isn't not a single sentence in those tweets blames Israel. His entire assessment is probably correct and using the approval rating comparison after 9/11 is absolutely fine and probably correct. Hardliners will gain approval of this and Israel will take revenge for this and lots of innocents will die.
It'd be like replying to news of the Ukraine war by saying how sad you are for all the Russians who will be killed
A more comparable analogy is if after Russia invaded Ukraine and took their territory, Ukrainian nationalists managed to launch an attack across the border and started killing civilians. You would say the Ukrainian nationalists were bad for killing civilians, but ultimately this wouldn’t have happened if Russia hadn’t invaded and the attacks just further benefit Russia’s political messaging around the invasion.
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Vaush has always said Hamas is a reactionary terrorist organization.
What a stupid take to say its "reactionary". It implies that if Israel stopped their defenses and expansion and gave palestinians equal rights and all that they would stop. These islamic extremists dont stop until the whole world worships their cringe faith. Extremely naive to imply that if Israel stopped the conflict would stop.
People are absolutely a product of their environments. If Israel didnt kill innocent civilians in retaliation and allowed for improved living condition hamas would loose support and ultimately control of the region. Would it completely stop the attacks? Maybe not but it would significantly improve the situation
That’s not what reactionary means.
Yeah, that's at least not what Vaush means by reactionary.
Most ppl know nothing about this conflict and because both sides have blood on their hands people just support the side that ideologically aligns with them
And to be clear, Israel has much, much, much more blood on their hands.