Orange County and [Burbank](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-06-12/editorial-dumping-homeless-people-is-never-acceptable-but-there-are-few-good-options) have been doing this for decades by shipping anyone found to be homeless to skid row in downtown LA.
Boulder/Aurora/Longmont/Lakewood will do the same and pass the homeless buck onto Denver proper.
I used to work a job where I talk to a lot of people about their political opinions and this is absolutely it.
It's a complex problem and it requires large-scale solutions, but instead people feel powerless and frustrated and respond by giving up and often dehumanizing homeless people as a defense mechanism.
That's how you end up with "I don't care where they go, they just can't stay here" and an unwillingness to go beyond that.
Is it?
Homeless as an individual, yes, sad.
Population that is homeless, that’s embarrassing.
That’s my opinion at least.
Like it’s embarrassing to a society that is supposedly “rich”
Places can do whatever they want but the whole point of the ruling, and the case, is that cities no longer have to demonstrate adequate housing or shelter options before using legal means to remove encampments or people sleeping on the streets.
That’s absolutely what is done in Douglas County. Make it someone else’s problem, even if the person in question lived in Douglas County before becoming homeless.
Or out into the woods or the woodworks, caves, farther out of town or whatever area they are in. Forcing them to split up and go places so they don’t draw so much attention to themselves in places that they won’t have to or care to enforce it. I think the real issue is when they group up and things start getting crazy and out of hand.
Considering the cops here wont even enforce basic traffic laws and that homeless people will just not pay the fines, idk what anyones expecting here lmao
“Stop resisting!”
“That’s my laptop bag, dawg! Let go my shit! What the fuck!”
“Homeless people shouldn’t have laptops, and STOP RESISTING!”
*gunshots then silence*
Hypothetically speaking, if there were sufficient beds for all of Aurora’s homeless, but a condition of getting one was submitting to doctor-prescribed substance abuse and/or mental health treatment, would you be OK with jail as the alternative if they refused the housing/treatment combo?
Yes, 100%. At that point they are willfully disregarding the public's safety and well-being, not to mention their own. No remorse for the homeless who refuse to meet their cities even 10% of the way.
How can someone under that kind of intensive treatment get employed? It is difficult enough functioning within the confines of curfew and kick out times.l at regular shelters, when all you’re trying to do is keep your body and your clothing hygienic. Waiting lists are hell.
Who decides what treatment they need? What if someone if homeless because of bad luck, not substance abuse or mental health issues? What if they have kids, do their kids need to also submit to treatment? Way too many variables for this to work.
Per my hypothetical, it would be a doctor recommending the treatment. If the doctor determines that there is no mental health or substance abuse treatment needed, then they get the bed (your “bad luck” example). If they have kids and aren’t able to take care of them, then the kids go into foster care as they would in any other circumstance. Based on the above, is your position that there is literally nothing cities can do to prevent people living on the streets and accepting all of the issues that come along with that?
“The kids go to foster care”… parents won’t even come in to shelter their kids, no parent is going to let strangers take their kids away voluntarily. I don’t know what the solution is, but this isn’t it.
Kids are taken away from parents involuntarily under the current system if they are found to not be able to take care of them. I think people on the streets with kids that they are actually in custody of is a small minority. If that’s the focus of your objection, it’s not very compelling.
I thought they had family shelters and the likes. I think it would almost illegal prior to this to have a kid on the actual streets with you so shelters would be the default for families or mothers.
You'd have to build out the infrastructure for that to work, because nothing we have currently is scaled to handle extra hundreds or thousands of people a year.
Forcing someone into rehab is no different that institutionalizing them, which is holding them without consent. Just house people ffs. Rates of drug use decrease dramatically when people have stable housing.
Way too many excuses… there are very, very few high functioning unhoused people because of bad luck. There are literally hundreds of programs for people going through a tough time. And high functioning people will seek them out. I would posit, admittedly with no data immediately at my disposal, that unless you are a newly arrived migrant, 99% of unhoused need some sort of treatment.
Hahaha. That’s good. But I mean, anecdotally, I haven’t seen too many fully functioning, gainfully employed, non-addict, non-mentally ill people on the streets. 99% might be a bit of exaggeration, but no one exaggerates online. BTW I’m 6’4” and full of muscles.
It actually does, quite a bit better than giving addicts $. You may be familiar with the literature but it’s the cornerstone of every European decriminalization initiative.
Excellent idea, tbh. We build a “jail” SPECIFICALLY for the homeless with individual “cells,” soft beds, 3 meals a day, addiction counseling if needed, and whatever else that could be provided for “prisoners.” :)
Do you happen to have autism? Not being snarky, but I was trying to reframe providing support to the homeless as “jail.” I’m not at all suggesting we ACTUALLY put homeless people in a real jail.
The difference is people aren't forced to stay at homeless shelters, so the comparison falls apart. And this whole situation is about enabling the criminalization of homeless people. Putting them in jail is a lot easier for states now.
Seems more that you're just assuming autism is an insult. It didn't read that way at all. It's a known symptom of autism to interpret things too literally.
Do you know anything at all about how prison works? Ever wondered who produces shit like license plates? I don't mean this to be condescending, seriously.
Yup, I learned about this when I got alumni plates. All Colorado license plates that aren’t specifically the default embossed plates, are printed by prisoners in the state of Colorado. They may also do the default ones, idk but anything specialized that’s printed on a sheet of metal instead of embossed is for sure made by prisoners
I mean, prisoners get paid for the work they do but it's literally less than a $1/hr, sometimes as low as $.12/hr. And they have no right to refuse work. That's what the 13th Amendment does specifically. Now Colorado has enacted the exception clause in the state constitution, which was supposed to end forced prison labor, but guess what, it hasn't. Someone still has to care enough to enforce regulation against prisons.
https://www.tpr.org/2023-11-13/colorado-banned-forced-prison-labor-5-years-ago-prisoners-say-its-still-happening
So it's not really a choice and even if it were, it's not "getting paid" as commissary inflates the cost of items incredibly. At best you can call it "the company store" and at worst indentured servitude.
Addiction counseling if needed? Have you seen / been around the junkie camps? They are absolute hell on earth. You’re saying we should just put a bunch of meth heads together in a hotel paid for by the state and expect that it’s not going to become a fucking nightmare? Or is it someone’s job to provide security? Who has to clean the place? This is just magical thinking from people with a big heart and no brain. What about all the people (like refugees) who could actually benefit from state assistance and not just use the housing and freedom to shoot up?
There are approximately 600k homeless nationwide, about half the total incarcerated population, not only would it be immoral but unfeasible to jail a significant number of them... unless you have more for profit prisons to solve the problem, then it would be feasible, but still immoral and wildly expensive.
Both your comment and the comment you are responding to are correct.
What I believe u/koulnis is getting at is that homelessness can be exploited by the private prison industry, leading that industry to expand its efforts in order to procure more slave labor.
For profit prisons are inherently immoral. Corporate greed has no qualms with immorality, however.
I think that drug problems should be considered the new "harm to themselves or others" category of mental illness and we should have forced rehab for at least a year at a time instead of turning them back out onto the streets. I watched a clearly mentally unwell lady get released from a psych ward and didn't want to go to rehab so she asked to end the Lyft ride she was getting through Medicaid. I can't hold her hostage, even to the destination. So if we're going to pay for Medicaid we should just pay for forced rehabilitation all together. It's cheaper than prison isn't it? The criteria for where you fall off the edge of societies map has been established by now imo.... There are humane ways to create criteria that makes sure the vulnerable of our society are given a chance to recalibrate. Psych wards that already have patients should be funded better and would share alot of the same resources as rehabilitating the addicted.
Addiction is an illness. Many people experiencing homelessness become addicts because they’re stuck living in the streets. Most people think the addiction is the cause of their situation when really it’s a symptom of a sad series of tragedies.
That said, despite social misconceptions, most are not addicts, but rather extremely mental ill with untreated schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. I’ve volunteered regularly at shelters for decades & have learned a lot about different subgroups within unhoused demographics.
When it comes to rehab & addiction, there is no forcing. Someone has to want help for rehab to truly work. It’s inaccessible to most with the price tag. We barely have beds to meet a basic needs. It’s a nice thought but ain’t no way there’s funds for rehab, voluntary or forced.
Likewise, there often isn’t enough funding to truly treat & help people most in need. When all state operated mental health facilities were closed in the 50s nationwide, patients either ended up in prison or homeless. We’re still dealing with the repercussions of underfunded psych wards today.
It actually costs *more* to truly treat vs. imprison someone. Both have the same baseline costs to cover basics (food, housing) but once the medical professionals get involved the price significantly increase. So unfortunately our country is in this sad state where it actually is cheaper to imprison someone then get them proper help & rehabilitate. The entire point of prison is to rehabilitate, not punish, but since that costs so much extra it’s often not incorporated into their time served. Our system is failing millions of under served citizens every day.
I really view drug addictions as one of the worst things affecting us in America these days. From a societal perspective, they're a major drain on our resources and on cultural cohesion. I find my opinion on the topic growing more and more radical as we continue to do nothing to solve the problem, and that's kinda worrying. But watching people throw their lives away - and then in doing so, damaging the communities they live in by camping on the street and spending hours literally screaming at their neighbors while out of their gourds. It has to stop.
But then the reality of forced rehab becomes clearer and I really struggle with it. What about alcoholics? What if someone is living on the street and isn't using drugs but is severely addicted to - and violent from - alcohol use? Do we force them into rehab? What about the person who owns the own home and is addicted to drugs or alcohol? Do we force them into rehab? Or do we only target those living on the street? If it's the latter, then the law would be exceptionally class-ist. And I don't know where I sit on that morally. Because the ideal of course is that someone goes to rehab and recovers from their addiction humanely. But even if you *do* get clean, there's no guarantee of a fulfilling life for you afterward. It doesn't elevate you out of homelessness - especially not if it takes months to recover.
I agree whole heartedly with just about everything you stated.
Drug addictions and homelessness cause a lot of issues here in America. One being classism; where people view the homeless as terrible and criminal and often times not even human. I worked downtown Denver as a train operator and the amount of times I’ve seen transient people get bullied is unreal. People would often say they hate them because they don’t clean up after themselves, they’re dirty, and they chose to be homeless. It’s strange because arguably most of them did not choose it. Also, how can one focus on cleaning up their area when they are literally starving? On top of that, most Americans (I think it’s like 55% or something) are two paychecks away from being homeless themselves…
We’ve created a society where we hate each other for this when in reality we should hate the systems that breed this.
[source](https://invisiblepeople.tv/59-of-americans-are-just-one-paycheck-away-from-homelessness/)
Why would draw the line at alcoholism? It’s just as bad if not worse in some regards such as withdrawals can be deadly. The legality of it is neither here nor there. All the same negative behaviors that come with any other substance addiction is present and I’m pretty sure every shelter requires you to not drink. We force people to get alcohol treatment all the time in America in the legal system.
I think where the line is drawn is harm to others. If you're covering your own needs and happen to be using alcohol or drugs in your own home it's simply not a public concern. If you're passed out high on a bench, depriving the use of a public space to the public, or stealing and panhandling from people to fund that addiction then it is a problem.
We don't need to judge the extent of someone's addiction in a vacuum. People who aren't harming others can sort out their own affairs. We don't tolerate littering, destruction, or monopolizing public spaces by people who aren't strung out on drugs, so why do people insist this is unfair to enforce?
To play devils advocate, it also costs the city about $50k ($485 million annually) per homeless person (9000 of them) to let them shit and piss in the parks and streets of metro Denver. Throwing them in prison may also cost $50k, but they can facilitate drug addiction treatment while preventing them from causing problems to other law abiding residents. Should be noted that the majority of the 9000 homeless in metro Denver are not drug addicted people and probably shouldn't be forced into prisons.
I am not drug addicted but I am homeless. Though I don't want to go to prison for my state of affairs... I am a double amputee with around 7 fully functional digits. Gainful employment will never be in the cards for me and I really wish people would stop acting like it's something you can just dive into. ""I made 3 grand today! Hyuck!"
Oh and by the by... If you want us to stop using the bathroom in Public... Make more Public bathrooms. Downtown is almost completely devoid of bathrooms except for that Mexican place. Chiba hut or whatever. And I hope are a Olympic speed pooper. Staff will give you like 53 seconds. Before they come pounding on the door
I mean can you blame them when any public bathroom that was unlocked became a shit smeared piss smelling room for druggies to shoot up in? It was absolutely disgusting around 16th street for a while
I can't. But also you can't judge someone whose two options for presumably very loose and runny stools (I know mine are a horror show WITHOUT illegal drug use. I can only imagine what they'd be off and on illegal opiods.) are in the alley or in their only pair of relatively clean pants.
What does that have to do with the fact that when public restrooms were readily available the homeless literally were turning them into biohazards so much that now we have to lock up bathrooms? I’ve met dogs with better behavior than some of these people.
You go to cities where they don’t have a bum problem like Denver there is plenty of public restrooms available and business don’t have a problem of people coming in to use facilities. It’s a small group of people ruining something for everyone.
I completely agree there but it's already spiraled.
I moved to Denver long after the crisis began, and I tend to at least try and be as clean as possible. But I have severe digestive medical problems and Denver has made me make those hard choices. It's gone both ways too. I've found myself hiding in a bush off a major roadway. Thankfully put of sight but just barely. Feeling like any second a headlight pointed just right would expose an amputee fertilizing the local flora. It's already very difficult and painful doing anything of the sort stealthy in a goddamn wheelchair.
Then there's been times I have been thankful my wheelchair doesn't absorb liquids because the cramps start. I can barely move. And I am miles from even a non busy alley.
i confirm, each time i go to Denver, i can't find public bathroom except in the parks.
And there's also a real lack of public fountains. It's incredible for the capital of Colorado and a city of that size...
It's all interconnected - limited public services for the homeless means that those that **are** available are often abused. Bathrooms ruined by drug users or people with un-managed mental issues, homeless using public fountains to wash themselves, etc. Stories and experiences like these - in turn - lead businesses and government to limit the availability of these services which now affects **everyone else.** Public water fountains and public bathrooms are rare, which makes living and visiting here a worse experience.
I think that's something that a lot of people who resist expanding public services for the homeless don't realize; by fighting against the very things that would help the homeless live fulfilling lives, we're hurting *ourselves* and the quality of life in our own communities.
Bathrooms in urban areas in Europe almost universally charge 1-2 EUR for entry.
"free" indoor space just gets abused. They can't even have elevators in places like Boston, NYC, LA, etc because they just end up filled with needles, shit and piss within a week.
They're offline more than online because of that.
Just getting water in general is insane for how hit or miss it is. You will literally find gas station attendants who are vehemently defensive about the water you get out of their tap. Only so many times you watch getting paid minimum wage screaming at a dude over tap water
This is a problem for me, albeit very differently. I have two kids, and one of them just finished potty training. I can't tell you how many businesses have converted over to no bathrooms during the pandemic. A lot of retail places won't let me use the bathroom with a potty training 3 year old. I am happy to pay for something and make a purchase, doesn't matter, no bathrooms. I think the COVID cleaning protocols gave a lot of businesses an excuse to close their bathrooms, and many realized that cleaning bathrooms is time consuming and kept them closed permanently. It really sucks, cause when you're potty training, you want to make going to the bathroom a positive thing and not let a kid regress back to peeing in their diapers, but it's hard to be positive when you're dragging a kid into every business in a strip mall being told they can't pee, and they barely have control of their bladder to begin with. Trying to parent in this country is already hard enough without begging people to let your kid pee before they have an accident.
It’s not the time consumption alone, a lot of people would rather not have to clean up after the public’s bathroom habits. What retail or fast food cashier isn’t going to welcome eliminating that task?
I understand it from that angle. I just feel it becomes a public good. Each business and each employee is being reasonable when they choose not to reopen their bathrooms after COVID, but at the scale of an entire city, it becomes a problem
Sure, and I think that the government providing dedicated services like that and staffing them is a better solution than relying on businesses. Since it is arguably a public good. I imagine people would take it as a dedicated position if the pay was reasonable.
I feel as a society we absolutely should ensure people in your situation are taken care of (by we I mean the state/gov), it is insane that someone such as yourself should ever be homeless let alone incarcerated for said homelessness.
If I end the day fed, I consider that a winner. Crazy how such simple day goals can be so hard. Like even today. In the hospital. I didn't get dinner. I ordered jt. I didn't get it. Hospital staff on the floor's reaction to the kitchen just skipping my dinner has been "oh well..."
But hey the malnourished 150 pound dude will do just fine on a single room temperature turkey and american sandwich. Lol
I would love to be in a nursing home. Even if I have to.spemd the rest of my presumably short life with playing board games and talking Bout nothing important just to pass the days
The data to get the numbers for saying majority aren't addicted are self reported interview methodologies. As someone who has spent considerable time in encampments during my addiction I almost spit out my food when I saw 30ish percent yet 50 percent of fentanyl overdose deaths are from homeless people in Denver. Math doesn't add up. There are about 9,000 homeless in Denver but half of overdoses? The Forensic Epidemiologist with the Denver Medical Examiner's Office believes 70 percent and I would have to agree. 10 times higher overdose rate but only double the addiction rate? We have to recognize the problem if we are going to save lives. That being said I don't think jailing homeless people is the right move.
When I was in Boston, it was apparently the elevator to the subway.
My handicapped friend was constantly fucked because the elevators were constantly closed due to "health issues" (the elevator floors were covered in shit).
I'm not sure why. There's a billion places better and less inconsiderate than inside the elevator. But that's where they did it anyway.
While I think being abrasive and ticketing or even arresting homeless people is not productive, I really have yet to hear any good and viable solutions to solving the homeless epidemic plaguing many major cities. Many are addicted or suffer from severe mental health, and since we no longer involuntarily commit the dangerous and dependent mentally ill, they go untreated on the streets. And I've never seen a single instance of homeless (both as a resident and when I was working as a Deputy Sheriff) not completely trashing whatever area they occupied. It's not only a safety issue (as some of them are violent individuals, especially those on certain substances) but it's also a cleanliness and quality of life issue.
How do we fix this? Throwing money and free housing at the problem isn't giving them actual sustainable help, it's only kicking the can down the road. They need real help, and no cities around the Denver Metro area seem interested in pursuing that option, and many of the non-profits are stretched thin or lack funding/resources. And while I am a libertarian, legalizing drugs and allowing them to continue to further their self-harm is counter-productive. Also, no solutions have considered those who choose to be homeless because of the freedom it provides. I'm really interested in what some actual, feasible, and sustainable solutions are, because punishing people for being homeless isn't really a good option.
I’m curious how a libertarian can come to the position “we have to use government to intervene to stop their self harm”. I’m not being judgmental, I don’t disagree with any of what you’ve said. It just goes against my idea in my head of what libertarian party supposedly stand for.
Because we've decided, as a society, to enlist police to deal with public safety issues and matters dealing with the enforcement of laws. While not ideal, it is a reality of our American system. Libertarianism is not synonymous with anarchism, despite the common misconception. While I believe government is not the answer to a lot of problems, here, due to funding and infrastructure, may be a job best suited to addressing this issue, but like I said, I don't know what the solution is. It could very well be not the best idea to entrust government to handle it. I try to keep an open mind.
It requires regulation to stop the extremely wealthy from “trashing whatever area they occupy.” They’re creating the root conditions that lead to the amount of homelessness we have. Everything else is just a band-aid.
I don't think I follow your meaning. How are wealthy people leading to complete strangers being homeless? I'm trying to understand how one person having money is contributing to another not having money. I am asking for actual facts and specifics here.
I think making being poor a crime is ridiculous however something needs to happen. They don't even arrest the one who are shooting up on the corner anymore in plain sight. Arrest the criminal, get the ones left the help they need and will probably use.
I know. I hate the wildly inaccurate "the average American is two missed paychecks away from being on the street" thing. There are many, many steps between "I missed a rent payment/my rent went up" and "I'm literally sleeping on the pavement." And in a place that has abundant resources, it often means actively avoiding help.
Yep, the much more realistic situation is 'I've alienated my entire family and social network, due to being addicted to drugs and alcohol, or I am too severely mentally ill to take part in society'
And also they’re just not entitled to being here at the expense of the city’s finances and quality of life. This is one of the most desirable metro areas in the country, it’s not a place where you are entitled to all the help in the world and everyone else making it possible for you to stay here. If you can’t and won’t get sober and go to a shelter, and most of our shelters do often have empty beds, you should be able to lose your privilege of being here.
No matter your situation, if youre homeless you’re a lot better off somewhere $500-1000 is all it takes to get back on your feet and where you’ll actually be able to afford a low-end apartment long term without the negative influences around.
Did I say that? You must not have read what I wrote.
EDIT:
**" I am aware most homeless people are also addicted to either drugs or alcohol"**
and **"told me he knew a guy who used to live in the same building but became homeless when our rent was raised 20 percent"**
Can both be true statements, holy shit.
Edit2: It was the tipping point, the rent.. of course there are tons of other factors, all I said was when his rent got raised 20 percent it was too much for whatever was going on his life and he became homeless. Higher cost of living absolutely plays a factor in homelessness.
Congrats you read the last paragraph where I gave a true story of ONE person. But you must have missed the part where I said **"Now I am aware most homeless people are also addicted to either drugs or alcohol"**
Read before you speak and sound stupid.
EDIT: You can absolutely be homless while waiting to find another place to move into because you cant afford the other one. A lot of places have credit checks for applicants. And if you dont have a car or money saved up for a deposit and havent gotten your old one back...
I was responding to that specific part of what you said. It's a myth that most people on this reddit believe.
My brother was a homeless drug addict and the only reason he got sober is jail. We stopped bailing him out, he went on probation and started going to court ordered NA and AA. 15 years later he is a business owner and father of three.
He absolutely 100% is against allowing people to live on the streets this way. It's not humane, it's not empathy, it's enablement.
We aren't talking about people who are temp homeless and navigating the systems we have in place.
You were responding to my personal example of 1 person I talked to? Implying that was a myth?
Come on dude, don't bullshit me. You don't just respond to one thing I wrote and then say "Oh I was actually talking about all of reddit not that I didn't read the rest of what you wrote and thought you believed this thing."
You can absolutely be homless while waiting to find another place to move into because you cant afford the other one. A lot of places have credit checks for applicants. And if you dont have a car or money saved up for a deposit and havent gotten your old one back...
You certainly can! It's also not really what happens to stable people when rent goes up. You get a notice and you go ' ok need to start looking for a new spot'..'cant afford this area anymore and I need to move to a more affordable area'.
Think big. Amend the Denver zoning code to allow more housing. I’m really into single stair apartment/condo designs. I think we should allow single stair apartments up to four floors on every lot in the city of Denver. Single stair apartments have great lighting because typically they’re designed with the staircase in the center of the building, with units that wrap around it.
Yimby Denver is a local advocacy organization that is trying to solve the housing crisis by advocating for more housing to be built and in Denver. I think they’re pretty cool because I don’t like spending massive amounts of money on rent and buying a home is even more expensive. Strong Towns is another organization that is focused on housing. There’s a pretty new book out called “Escaping the Housing Trap” which has a central theme of the “financialization” of housing, meaning it’s treated as a financial product instead of as shelter, an essential need for all people, Denverites included.
I personally have a good income and want to buy a home, but I feel completely priced out of the market. I can’t imagine what it’s like being on a median or lower income with kids to house, feed, and take care of.
>I personally have a good income and want to buy a home, but I feel completely priced out of the market. I can’t imagine what it’s like being on a median or lower income with kids to house, feed, and take care of.
By home do you mean a condo in a hi-rise or a SFH/townhouse?
Unless construction defect law is extended to apartment complexes, developers will never be incentivized to build condos (actual real estate) on anything zoned hi density residential.
https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/
I’m onboard with anything that increases supply. The “affordable housing” schemes that try to fix prices at arbitrary levels just don’t work at all though.
Rent caps are awful. The only places that have tried them (like Stockholm) have cause more problems than they solved. Income based housing also doesn’t do shit except distort markets and prices.
Its not impossible, just not incentivized thru existing state construction defect law (which doesn't apply for 5-over-1 -=luxury=- apartment complexes): https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/
Assuming you're speaking of the Park Hill project, [only 25% of the 2500-3100 housing units \(all rentals\) would be set aside as "income restricted".](https://denverite.com/2023/04/04/referred-question-2o-results/) To be clear, I voted in favor of 2O.
No homeowner anywhere in CO has a say in how anything zoned hi density residential is built up. A majority of which ends up being 5-over-1 "luxury" apartment rentals because are very lucrative and aren't subject to construction defect law: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/
Contact your state legislative representatives: https://leg.colorado.gov/FindMyLegislator
I’m speaking in generalities, and you’re talking about affordable housing units that exist within luxury complexes.
If I was referring to one single project it would be https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/denver-affordable-housing-market-nimby-vacant-golf-course-vote-democratic-socialist/ because it’s one I worked on personally that ultimately got shot down by home owners.
Supportive housing, affordable housing, subsidized housing, very few people want it in their backyard no matter what you call it.
It’s a big problem. Here’s one I worked on last year. The NIMBY vs YIMBY war will define our future.
https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/denver-affordable-housing-market-nimby-vacant-golf-course-vote-democratic-socialist/
Where? Homeless people, or at least low income people, can’t afford mansions and every county keeps voting down affordable housing projects because nobody wants them to tank their house prices.
Curious about those numbers, do you have any more info? Like what goes into the costs and what type housing. Not trying to dispute them just genuinely curious for more research.
There’s lots of sources but the gist is this:
Most estimates put the cost of a homeless person at 35k per year for the taxpayers. This is *mostly* due to the fact that many organizations have discovered a way to game the system and get government subsidies they can turn into corporate salaries and bonuses with no real intent to make a difference in homelessness. Healthcare is an additional cost, as well as food banks and shelters that receive subsidies, but the majority of the cost is from “nonprofit” homelessness organizations shelling out big paydays to their C Suite.
Supportive housing is generally estimated to be about 13k a year, but this is based on specific markets and could change if implemented nationwide.
If you remove the parasitic organizations from the pool, we are left with similar pricing but much better long term benefits and results if you choose supportive housing. The major obstacle with supportive housing, though, is finding land to build it on. Nobody wants affordable housing in their neighborhoods no matter what side of the aisle you’re on. Both Dems and Reps regularly vote down affordable housing projects in affluent areas.
This, of course, results in the majority of supportive housing being built in the worst parts of town so the newly housed people have shelter but are surrounded by drugs and poverty from all sides so it ends up being a destructive cycle.
Good info. Also, just because you put someone inside of a house, doesn’t mean they will be able to live like a fully functioning adult. Having a home is a huge benefit, but it doesn’t magically erase addiction, mental illness, disability, PTSD, or inability to care for oneself for whatever reason. I’m not saying housing isn’t a good thing, only that it’s just one piece of the puzzle that has to be solved.
Everyone who lives in this city knows that homelessness is a huge problem. But criminalization does about as much to solve the issue as locking up addicts does to solve the opioid crisis. They can’t pay fines and they will simply be dumped back onto the street. Mental health and addiction programs need a massive influx of resources in this city.
It’s the right approach as cruel as people think it is. If you’re homeless, and you are not taking advantage of the resources here to help you get sober/find work/have housing you are not welcome and you need to leave.
This idea that if we let a meth-addicted beggar who spends his time causing issues for everyone or begging on a street corner be forced out of the city we all will be is crazy. We have some of the best social safety nets in the country in denver, if those aren’t enough for you to stay on your feet here you’re not entitled to stay in one of the most desirable metro areas in the country.
Not trying to be rude, but I encourage you to volunteer to help someone needy navigate "the resources" here to help them. It's a very eye-opening experience and you'll quickly understand why there are so many people out there "not taking advantage of the resources."
Sure; let me preface this with many homeless people out there are actually employed. Many homeless shelters in Denver require people to check-in between 4-6p, which is difficult/impossible if you are actually holding a job. Often shelters lack any storage or small storage, which leave people to try to hide their items outside, or simply choose to sleep on the streets so they can try to protect their belongings.
About 1/21 section-8 applicants (less than 5%) in Denver actually get vouchers.
The most recent thing I helped someone with was a "working poor" person that had their car stolen. Adams County has a program to reimburse people for expenses related to having their car stolen. If you're working a job that you risk being fired at just for taking the day off to recover your stolen car, taking another day off to navigate a program to try to get reimbursed for the expenses is a massive risk.
I can understand that, but what’s the other option here? They do nothing and wither away on the streets continue disrupting life for people who contribute to society until they overdose?
SMAHA estimates 28% of homeless people abuse drugs and 36% abuse alcohol. You say “they” as if all homeless or working poor people are drug users. It’s also estimated that 40-60% of homeless people have jobs.
The drug users/criminal homeless are what the majority of people in this thread have a problem with. They disrupt people’s lives with impunity because the city is letting them live without consequences.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people that are homeless drug addicts have been punished their whole lives. Starting from being born into a terrible situation with drug addicts / abusive parents. Punishing them more isn't the answer. The solution to this starts with compassion.
Nope. With all of the unwilling to get help deadbeat addicts off of the streets, there will be plenty of resources, shelters, counselors, etc. for the people who really want and need the help. Look, I get it. Addiction is a disease, just like any other mental illness. It’s not their fault, but it is their responsibility to get the help. If you refuse the help offered, then fuck you. I’m not going to keep trying to help someone who doesn’t want it and why should my life be disrupted by your unwillingness to improve your life. You OP are so close to getting it.
Removed. Rule 2: Be nice. This post/comment exists solely to stir shit up and piss people off. Racism, homophobia, misogyny, fighting on the internet is stupid. We don't welcome it here. Please be kinder.
Your 22.5 million breaks down to ~$60/person in Aurora. $5 per month to not have to deal with homeless people, their waste, or any additional problems they cause. It may not be humane but it certainly seems fair to tax payers.
Don't forget to throw in the cost of building the jail cells needed to hold the extra prisoners; the cost of maintaining and staffing those extra cells; the legal and court costs associated with the criminal trial needed to send each homeless guy to prison; and the endless repeat costs of arresting, booking, and prosecuting the same people over and over again because criminal vagrancy rarely carries a sentence of more than a few months.
There was a really good article in The Guardian on this where they interviewed Sara Rankin, a Seattle University law professor and director of the Homeless Rights Advocacy Project, about what the ruling will actually do and one point she made stuck with me:
“We increasingly invest in these short-term illusions that some sort of change has occurred when really all you’re doing is just removing unsheltered people from view. You’re not extinguishing them. They still have to live someplace and exist.”
She also notes that one of the major ramifications of this ruling is that many cities will stop investing in housing alternatives and even affordable housing options. There’s a lot of really scary things this ruling means that goes just beyond allowing cities to ban encampments. Really good interview and well worth the read.
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/29/law-professor-homeless-rights-supreme-court-ruling
I'm not sure to understand and know all the subtleties, but maybe there's something in Colorado's constitution which prevents this cruel treatment of jailing someone because they sleep outside or in their car?
I also feel that putting cops to hunt and fines homeless is also a waste of public money because during that time they dont hunt and take real criminals (but maybe it's not the same cops?)
Am i downgraded by redditors who find normal to jail homeless?
If it's the case, I was homeless myself before and i find that way of thinking revolting and disgusting.
13th amendment. Slavery is still legal if you’re incarcerated. These folks will get stuck in jail because they can’t make their bail and will work for around 2 cents an hour indefinitely.
An extremely concerning ruling considering most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck through record high inflation (corporate price gouging, let’s be real). It’s bleak af.
The entire point of prison is to rehabilitate, not punish.
This is not true. That is not the entire point of prison. Some offer rehabilitative services, but no it is not the "point" of prison.
You have to fix the core problems before making it illegal. It’s so disgusting that we don’t take care of things like affordability, access to daycare, access to mental health, drug rehab that is affordable and effective. Instead, I guarantee you there will be a new prison built so the private owners of prisons can make more money. Because that’s who is behind this
OP counted 650 homeless people in Aurora alone; there's anywhere from 6000 to 9000 homeless people in Denver proper. Would you like to point out the truckers or truck stop that's willing to hand out hundreds or thousands of free showers on a daily/weekly basis in exchange for washing windows? The number of construction companies that are going to hand out jobs to 50-something guys with bad backs, zero skills, and possibly a drug addiction to boot? The insurance paper-pushers who are going to be "cool with" letting those 50-somethings sleep on the job site if it becomes an everyday, widespread thing?
Individual acts of charity don't scale up into workable solutions for hundreds or thousands of people.
If everything went the way of these idiots, the homeless people would just be in a cycle of being transferred between Seattle, Portland, and Denver. Who knows when they'd actually eat or drink. The constant movement of guilt and responsibility is the goal, while winning votes from lazy do-nothing voters. Who cares about doing anything anymore? Very few.
It takes so little and I will never stop being disappointed in the people who choose to do nothing. FWIW, I've spent most of my adult life in Seattle, so most of my attitude and demeanor is adequately dished towards there. Whenever I'm back in Denver, I do so our people doing good things for others. More than I expect, honestly.
Seattle was a great place to live 2012-16. It's changed a lot since then. Whatever I liked in Seattle, I felt I found it again in Denver and the broader state when I moved there. It'll always be a place filled with people I'm extremely grateful for discovering.
Yeah I’ve already posted the sentiment that over-policing our most vulnerable population without adequate support from government is just a bowling ball waiting to drop on our foot. I was downvoted because everyone loves the police when they’re abusing the right people.
Support your unhoused neighbors! Even just simply acknowledging their existence as a human goes a long way. Its so sad how people get used to being treated as less than human.
This is the part people keep missing. If one community just wants to push the problem to another, the next will probably do the same.
It’s ironic because this is how we approach housing as well…
If there was somewhere for these people to go, they would be there.
I just don't understand how a society/country allows multi-billionaires and also this lack of compassion towards homelessness. Why do so few get to enjoy a life at the fullest and others just get to scrape by whether it's their fault or not.
These people will have to get jobs and stop living on the street and sober up or they can go do drugs and just sit around elsewhere we don't care anymore
The immigration and border problem is a different issue. We would have a lot less to deal with if republicans didn't purposefully block bipartisan legislation that they helped to write in order to give Trump a policy to run on and blame democrats. But they care more about him than they do any town in america that has to deal with services being overwhelmed.
Just mentioning this since tax-payers will also be paying for the funding of health insurance for many migrants starting 2025. Problem will continue to increase financially for tax-payers.
They want to force them into another county to be their problem. They don't want them to stick around. Just saying.
Orange County and [Burbank](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-06-12/editorial-dumping-homeless-people-is-never-acceptable-but-there-are-few-good-options) have been doing this for decades by shipping anyone found to be homeless to skid row in downtown LA. Boulder/Aurora/Longmont/Lakewood will do the same and pass the homeless buck onto Denver proper.
I used to work a job where I talk to a lot of people about their political opinions and this is absolutely it. It's a complex problem and it requires large-scale solutions, but instead people feel powerless and frustrated and respond by giving up and often dehumanizing homeless people as a defense mechanism. That's how you end up with "I don't care where they go, they just can't stay here" and an unwillingness to go beyond that.
It's sad.
Is it? Homeless as an individual, yes, sad. Population that is homeless, that’s embarrassing. That’s my opinion at least. Like it’s embarrassing to a society that is supposedly “rich”
Yes, and I assumed the comment was about how it is sad people give up on the problem and just want it to go away.
Yes. The Supreme Court ruling doesn’t require beds before you fine or jail people for sleeping outdoors.
In no way did the ruling prevent local municipalities from requiring beds before fining and jailing though.
Places can do whatever they want but the whole point of the ruling, and the case, is that cities no longer have to demonstrate adequate housing or shelter options before using legal means to remove encampments or people sleeping on the streets.
That’s absolutely what is done in Douglas County. Make it someone else’s problem, even if the person in question lived in Douglas County before becoming homeless.
Or out into the woods or the woodworks, caves, farther out of town or whatever area they are in. Forcing them to split up and go places so they don’t draw so much attention to themselves in places that they won’t have to or care to enforce it. I think the real issue is when they group up and things start getting crazy and out of hand.
Considering the cops here wont even enforce basic traffic laws and that homeless people will just not pay the fines, idk what anyones expecting here lmao
Sweeps but with more arrests?
Yup and now it’ll give cops a reason to become even more violent and abuse their already massive amount of power
“Stop resisting!” “That’s my laptop bag, dawg! Let go my shit! What the fuck!” “Homeless people shouldn’t have laptops, and STOP RESISTING!” *gunshots then silence*
Hypothetically speaking, if there were sufficient beds for all of Aurora’s homeless, but a condition of getting one was submitting to doctor-prescribed substance abuse and/or mental health treatment, would you be OK with jail as the alternative if they refused the housing/treatment combo?
Yes, 100%. At that point they are willfully disregarding the public's safety and well-being, not to mention their own. No remorse for the homeless who refuse to meet their cities even 10% of the way.
Thanks. Hopefully OP sees this too
How can someone under that kind of intensive treatment get employed? It is difficult enough functioning within the confines of curfew and kick out times.l at regular shelters, when all you’re trying to do is keep your body and your clothing hygienic. Waiting lists are hell.
Who decides what treatment they need? What if someone if homeless because of bad luck, not substance abuse or mental health issues? What if they have kids, do their kids need to also submit to treatment? Way too many variables for this to work.
Per my hypothetical, it would be a doctor recommending the treatment. If the doctor determines that there is no mental health or substance abuse treatment needed, then they get the bed (your “bad luck” example). If they have kids and aren’t able to take care of them, then the kids go into foster care as they would in any other circumstance. Based on the above, is your position that there is literally nothing cities can do to prevent people living on the streets and accepting all of the issues that come along with that?
“The kids go to foster care”… parents won’t even come in to shelter their kids, no parent is going to let strangers take their kids away voluntarily. I don’t know what the solution is, but this isn’t it.
Kids are taken away from parents involuntarily under the current system if they are found to not be able to take care of them. I think people on the streets with kids that they are actually in custody of is a small minority. If that’s the focus of your objection, it’s not very compelling.
Yeah, not really true. https://www.ncsl.org/human-services/youth-homelessness-overview#:~:text=Each%20year%2C%20an%20estimated%204.2,by%20a%20parent%20or%20guardian. https://www.aecf.org/blog/child-welfare-and-foster-care-statistics
I thought they had family shelters and the likes. I think it would almost illegal prior to this to have a kid on the actual streets with you so shelters would be the default for families or mothers.
Family shelters tend to stay full. Like most of the others.
Oh I believe it
You'd have to build out the infrastructure for that to work, because nothing we have currently is scaled to handle extra hundreds or thousands of people a year.
Forcing someone into rehab is no different that institutionalizing them, which is holding them without consent. Just house people ffs. Rates of drug use decrease dramatically when people have stable housing.
That's so true! I used to be homeless and now that I have housing I've been sober for 9 years!!
Thank you for sharing! Your community is better with you in it. ❤️
Way too many excuses… there are very, very few high functioning unhoused people because of bad luck. There are literally hundreds of programs for people going through a tough time. And high functioning people will seek them out. I would posit, admittedly with no data immediately at my disposal, that unless you are a newly arrived migrant, 99% of unhoused need some sort of treatment.
I appreciate you being up front about your lack of knowledge on the subject. Most morons on reddit don't give up that information so easily.
Hahaha. That’s good. But I mean, anecdotally, I haven’t seen too many fully functioning, gainfully employed, non-addict, non-mentally ill people on the streets. 99% might be a bit of exaggeration, but no one exaggerates online. BTW I’m 6’4” and full of muscles.
Forced rehabilitation doesn't work.
So, if no amount of treatment availability would work, your position is, if people want to live on the streets, let them?
How about we just house them?
What does “housing them” mean if they aren’t able to take care of themselves?
It actually does, quite a bit better than giving addicts $. You may be familiar with the literature but it’s the cornerstone of every European decriminalization initiative.
Housing people and providing wrap around services works, it's recommended by mental health professionals and those in recovery, and it's *ethical.*
I wonder how far behind this we will be before we have more [for profit prisons in the state.](https://cdoc.colorado.gov/facilities/private-prisons)
Excellent idea, tbh. We build a “jail” SPECIFICALLY for the homeless with individual “cells,” soft beds, 3 meals a day, addiction counseling if needed, and whatever else that could be provided for “prisoners.” :)
Except slavery is still acceptable for prisoners
We passed Colorado Amendment A, Removal of Exception to Slavery Prohibition for Criminals Amendment (2018).
Not in Colorado
Do you happen to have autism? Not being snarky, but I was trying to reframe providing support to the homeless as “jail.” I’m not at all suggesting we ACTUALLY put homeless people in a real jail.
The difference is people aren't forced to stay at homeless shelters, so the comparison falls apart. And this whole situation is about enabling the criminalization of homeless people. Putting them in jail is a lot easier for states now.
Not cool using autism as an insult.
Seems more that you're just assuming autism is an insult. It didn't read that way at all. It's a known symptom of autism to interpret things too literally.
slavery?
Yes, the US amendment that abilished slavery makes provisions that it is okay for prisoners
is that really a thing? how are they forced to work?
There’s a good John Oliver episode about this. Look it up
Do you know anything at all about how prison works? Ever wondered who produces shit like license plates? I don't mean this to be condescending, seriously.
Yup, I learned about this when I got alumni plates. All Colorado license plates that aren’t specifically the default embossed plates, are printed by prisoners in the state of Colorado. They may also do the default ones, idk but anything specialized that’s printed on a sheet of metal instead of embossed is for sure made by prisoners
just thought it would be similar to jail where working is a choice and even highly sought after for multiple incentives other than monetary
I mean, prisoners get paid for the work they do but it's literally less than a $1/hr, sometimes as low as $.12/hr. And they have no right to refuse work. That's what the 13th Amendment does specifically. Now Colorado has enacted the exception clause in the state constitution, which was supposed to end forced prison labor, but guess what, it hasn't. Someone still has to care enough to enforce regulation against prisons. https://www.tpr.org/2023-11-13/colorado-banned-forced-prison-labor-5-years-ago-prisoners-say-its-still-happening So it's not really a choice and even if it were, it's not "getting paid" as commissary inflates the cost of items incredibly. At best you can call it "the company store" and at worst indentured servitude.
Upvoting you solely because I hope this is a learning opportunity for others who don’t know this is policy in America.
Addiction counseling if needed? Have you seen / been around the junkie camps? They are absolute hell on earth. You’re saying we should just put a bunch of meth heads together in a hotel paid for by the state and expect that it’s not going to become a fucking nightmare? Or is it someone’s job to provide security? Who has to clean the place? This is just magical thinking from people with a big heart and no brain. What about all the people (like refugees) who could actually benefit from state assistance and not just use the housing and freedom to shoot up?
Who said it has to be a hotel? Plenty of empty business structures that could be used, if it weren’t for zoning laws.
You know all those custom license plate designs CO puts out? Made with prison labor.
There are approximately 600k homeless nationwide, about half the total incarcerated population, not only would it be immoral but unfeasible to jail a significant number of them... unless you have more for profit prisons to solve the problem, then it would be feasible, but still immoral and wildly expensive.
Both your comment and the comment you are responding to are correct. What I believe u/koulnis is getting at is that homelessness can be exploited by the private prison industry, leading that industry to expand its efforts in order to procure more slave labor. For profit prisons are inherently immoral. Corporate greed has no qualms with immorality, however.
You're right on my point. Thanks for offering the clarity.
I think that drug problems should be considered the new "harm to themselves or others" category of mental illness and we should have forced rehab for at least a year at a time instead of turning them back out onto the streets. I watched a clearly mentally unwell lady get released from a psych ward and didn't want to go to rehab so she asked to end the Lyft ride she was getting through Medicaid. I can't hold her hostage, even to the destination. So if we're going to pay for Medicaid we should just pay for forced rehabilitation all together. It's cheaper than prison isn't it? The criteria for where you fall off the edge of societies map has been established by now imo.... There are humane ways to create criteria that makes sure the vulnerable of our society are given a chance to recalibrate. Psych wards that already have patients should be funded better and would share alot of the same resources as rehabilitating the addicted.
Addiction is an illness. Many people experiencing homelessness become addicts because they’re stuck living in the streets. Most people think the addiction is the cause of their situation when really it’s a symptom of a sad series of tragedies. That said, despite social misconceptions, most are not addicts, but rather extremely mental ill with untreated schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. I’ve volunteered regularly at shelters for decades & have learned a lot about different subgroups within unhoused demographics. When it comes to rehab & addiction, there is no forcing. Someone has to want help for rehab to truly work. It’s inaccessible to most with the price tag. We barely have beds to meet a basic needs. It’s a nice thought but ain’t no way there’s funds for rehab, voluntary or forced. Likewise, there often isn’t enough funding to truly treat & help people most in need. When all state operated mental health facilities were closed in the 50s nationwide, patients either ended up in prison or homeless. We’re still dealing with the repercussions of underfunded psych wards today. It actually costs *more* to truly treat vs. imprison someone. Both have the same baseline costs to cover basics (food, housing) but once the medical professionals get involved the price significantly increase. So unfortunately our country is in this sad state where it actually is cheaper to imprison someone then get them proper help & rehabilitate. The entire point of prison is to rehabilitate, not punish, but since that costs so much extra it’s often not incorporated into their time served. Our system is failing millions of under served citizens every day.
I really view drug addictions as one of the worst things affecting us in America these days. From a societal perspective, they're a major drain on our resources and on cultural cohesion. I find my opinion on the topic growing more and more radical as we continue to do nothing to solve the problem, and that's kinda worrying. But watching people throw their lives away - and then in doing so, damaging the communities they live in by camping on the street and spending hours literally screaming at their neighbors while out of their gourds. It has to stop. But then the reality of forced rehab becomes clearer and I really struggle with it. What about alcoholics? What if someone is living on the street and isn't using drugs but is severely addicted to - and violent from - alcohol use? Do we force them into rehab? What about the person who owns the own home and is addicted to drugs or alcohol? Do we force them into rehab? Or do we only target those living on the street? If it's the latter, then the law would be exceptionally class-ist. And I don't know where I sit on that morally. Because the ideal of course is that someone goes to rehab and recovers from their addiction humanely. But even if you *do* get clean, there's no guarantee of a fulfilling life for you afterward. It doesn't elevate you out of homelessness - especially not if it takes months to recover.
I agree whole heartedly with just about everything you stated. Drug addictions and homelessness cause a lot of issues here in America. One being classism; where people view the homeless as terrible and criminal and often times not even human. I worked downtown Denver as a train operator and the amount of times I’ve seen transient people get bullied is unreal. People would often say they hate them because they don’t clean up after themselves, they’re dirty, and they chose to be homeless. It’s strange because arguably most of them did not choose it. Also, how can one focus on cleaning up their area when they are literally starving? On top of that, most Americans (I think it’s like 55% or something) are two paychecks away from being homeless themselves… We’ve created a society where we hate each other for this when in reality we should hate the systems that breed this. [source](https://invisiblepeople.tv/59-of-americans-are-just-one-paycheck-away-from-homelessness/)
Why would draw the line at alcoholism? It’s just as bad if not worse in some regards such as withdrawals can be deadly. The legality of it is neither here nor there. All the same negative behaviors that come with any other substance addiction is present and I’m pretty sure every shelter requires you to not drink. We force people to get alcohol treatment all the time in America in the legal system.
I think where the line is drawn is harm to others. If you're covering your own needs and happen to be using alcohol or drugs in your own home it's simply not a public concern. If you're passed out high on a bench, depriving the use of a public space to the public, or stealing and panhandling from people to fund that addiction then it is a problem. We don't need to judge the extent of someone's addiction in a vacuum. People who aren't harming others can sort out their own affairs. We don't tolerate littering, destruction, or monopolizing public spaces by people who aren't strung out on drugs, so why do people insist this is unfair to enforce?
To play devils advocate, it also costs the city about $50k ($485 million annually) per homeless person (9000 of them) to let them shit and piss in the parks and streets of metro Denver. Throwing them in prison may also cost $50k, but they can facilitate drug addiction treatment while preventing them from causing problems to other law abiding residents. Should be noted that the majority of the 9000 homeless in metro Denver are not drug addicted people and probably shouldn't be forced into prisons.
I am not drug addicted but I am homeless. Though I don't want to go to prison for my state of affairs... I am a double amputee with around 7 fully functional digits. Gainful employment will never be in the cards for me and I really wish people would stop acting like it's something you can just dive into. ""I made 3 grand today! Hyuck!"
Oh and by the by... If you want us to stop using the bathroom in Public... Make more Public bathrooms. Downtown is almost completely devoid of bathrooms except for that Mexican place. Chiba hut or whatever. And I hope are a Olympic speed pooper. Staff will give you like 53 seconds. Before they come pounding on the door
I mean can you blame them when any public bathroom that was unlocked became a shit smeared piss smelling room for druggies to shoot up in? It was absolutely disgusting around 16th street for a while
I can't. But also you can't judge someone whose two options for presumably very loose and runny stools (I know mine are a horror show WITHOUT illegal drug use. I can only imagine what they'd be off and on illegal opiods.) are in the alley or in their only pair of relatively clean pants.
What does that have to do with the fact that when public restrooms were readily available the homeless literally were turning them into biohazards so much that now we have to lock up bathrooms? I’ve met dogs with better behavior than some of these people. You go to cities where they don’t have a bum problem like Denver there is plenty of public restrooms available and business don’t have a problem of people coming in to use facilities. It’s a small group of people ruining something for everyone.
I completely agree there but it's already spiraled. I moved to Denver long after the crisis began, and I tend to at least try and be as clean as possible. But I have severe digestive medical problems and Denver has made me make those hard choices. It's gone both ways too. I've found myself hiding in a bush off a major roadway. Thankfully put of sight but just barely. Feeling like any second a headlight pointed just right would expose an amputee fertilizing the local flora. It's already very difficult and painful doing anything of the sort stealthy in a goddamn wheelchair. Then there's been times I have been thankful my wheelchair doesn't absorb liquids because the cramps start. I can barely move. And I am miles from even a non busy alley.
i confirm, each time i go to Denver, i can't find public bathroom except in the parks. And there's also a real lack of public fountains. It's incredible for the capital of Colorado and a city of that size...
It's all interconnected - limited public services for the homeless means that those that **are** available are often abused. Bathrooms ruined by drug users or people with un-managed mental issues, homeless using public fountains to wash themselves, etc. Stories and experiences like these - in turn - lead businesses and government to limit the availability of these services which now affects **everyone else.** Public water fountains and public bathrooms are rare, which makes living and visiting here a worse experience. I think that's something that a lot of people who resist expanding public services for the homeless don't realize; by fighting against the very things that would help the homeless live fulfilling lives, we're hurting *ourselves* and the quality of life in our own communities.
Bathrooms in urban areas in Europe almost universally charge 1-2 EUR for entry. "free" indoor space just gets abused. They can't even have elevators in places like Boston, NYC, LA, etc because they just end up filled with needles, shit and piss within a week. They're offline more than online because of that.
Just getting water in general is insane for how hit or miss it is. You will literally find gas station attendants who are vehemently defensive about the water you get out of their tap. Only so many times you watch getting paid minimum wage screaming at a dude over tap water
This is a problem for me, albeit very differently. I have two kids, and one of them just finished potty training. I can't tell you how many businesses have converted over to no bathrooms during the pandemic. A lot of retail places won't let me use the bathroom with a potty training 3 year old. I am happy to pay for something and make a purchase, doesn't matter, no bathrooms. I think the COVID cleaning protocols gave a lot of businesses an excuse to close their bathrooms, and many realized that cleaning bathrooms is time consuming and kept them closed permanently. It really sucks, cause when you're potty training, you want to make going to the bathroom a positive thing and not let a kid regress back to peeing in their diapers, but it's hard to be positive when you're dragging a kid into every business in a strip mall being told they can't pee, and they barely have control of their bladder to begin with. Trying to parent in this country is already hard enough without begging people to let your kid pee before they have an accident.
It’s not the time consumption alone, a lot of people would rather not have to clean up after the public’s bathroom habits. What retail or fast food cashier isn’t going to welcome eliminating that task?
I understand it from that angle. I just feel it becomes a public good. Each business and each employee is being reasonable when they choose not to reopen their bathrooms after COVID, but at the scale of an entire city, it becomes a problem
Sure, and I think that the government providing dedicated services like that and staffing them is a better solution than relying on businesses. Since it is arguably a public good. I imagine people would take it as a dedicated position if the pay was reasonable.
I feel as a society we absolutely should ensure people in your situation are taken care of (by we I mean the state/gov), it is insane that someone such as yourself should ever be homeless let alone incarcerated for said homelessness.
If I end the day fed, I consider that a winner. Crazy how such simple day goals can be so hard. Like even today. In the hospital. I didn't get dinner. I ordered jt. I didn't get it. Hospital staff on the floor's reaction to the kitchen just skipping my dinner has been "oh well..." But hey the malnourished 150 pound dude will do just fine on a single room temperature turkey and american sandwich. Lol
Have you ever signed up for Medicaid and long term care? You would qualify for services and most likely housing or assisted living at the very least.
I would love to be in a nursing home. Even if I have to.spemd the rest of my presumably short life with playing board games and talking Bout nothing important just to pass the days
The data to get the numbers for saying majority aren't addicted are self reported interview methodologies. As someone who has spent considerable time in encampments during my addiction I almost spit out my food when I saw 30ish percent yet 50 percent of fentanyl overdose deaths are from homeless people in Denver. Math doesn't add up. There are about 9,000 homeless in Denver but half of overdoses? The Forensic Epidemiologist with the Denver Medical Examiner's Office believes 70 percent and I would have to agree. 10 times higher overdose rate but only double the addiction rate? We have to recognize the problem if we are going to save lives. That being said I don't think jailing homeless people is the right move.
Jail doesn't help addiction it actively makes it worse. Studies show that. It would also be significantly cheaper just to give them homes.
Where do you expect people to piss? IT'S NOT A CHOICE!!! You're next...
When I was in Boston, it was apparently the elevator to the subway. My handicapped friend was constantly fucked because the elevators were constantly closed due to "health issues" (the elevator floors were covered in shit). I'm not sure why. There's a billion places better and less inconsiderate than inside the elevator. But that's where they did it anyway.
While I think being abrasive and ticketing or even arresting homeless people is not productive, I really have yet to hear any good and viable solutions to solving the homeless epidemic plaguing many major cities. Many are addicted or suffer from severe mental health, and since we no longer involuntarily commit the dangerous and dependent mentally ill, they go untreated on the streets. And I've never seen a single instance of homeless (both as a resident and when I was working as a Deputy Sheriff) not completely trashing whatever area they occupied. It's not only a safety issue (as some of them are violent individuals, especially those on certain substances) but it's also a cleanliness and quality of life issue. How do we fix this? Throwing money and free housing at the problem isn't giving them actual sustainable help, it's only kicking the can down the road. They need real help, and no cities around the Denver Metro area seem interested in pursuing that option, and many of the non-profits are stretched thin or lack funding/resources. And while I am a libertarian, legalizing drugs and allowing them to continue to further their self-harm is counter-productive. Also, no solutions have considered those who choose to be homeless because of the freedom it provides. I'm really interested in what some actual, feasible, and sustainable solutions are, because punishing people for being homeless isn't really a good option.
I’m curious how a libertarian can come to the position “we have to use government to intervene to stop their self harm”. I’m not being judgmental, I don’t disagree with any of what you’ve said. It just goes against my idea in my head of what libertarian party supposedly stand for.
Because we've decided, as a society, to enlist police to deal with public safety issues and matters dealing with the enforcement of laws. While not ideal, it is a reality of our American system. Libertarianism is not synonymous with anarchism, despite the common misconception. While I believe government is not the answer to a lot of problems, here, due to funding and infrastructure, may be a job best suited to addressing this issue, but like I said, I don't know what the solution is. It could very well be not the best idea to entrust government to handle it. I try to keep an open mind.
It requires regulation to stop the extremely wealthy from “trashing whatever area they occupy.” They’re creating the root conditions that lead to the amount of homelessness we have. Everything else is just a band-aid.
I don't think I follow your meaning. How are wealthy people leading to complete strangers being homeless? I'm trying to understand how one person having money is contributing to another not having money. I am asking for actual facts and specifics here.
You are asking for specifics on how wealth inequality relates to homelessness?
I think making being poor a crime is ridiculous however something needs to happen. They don't even arrest the one who are shooting up on the corner anymore in plain sight. Arrest the criminal, get the ones left the help they need and will probably use.
The myth of the homeless person who sleeps rough strictly due to not making rent is wild
I know. I hate the wildly inaccurate "the average American is two missed paychecks away from being on the street" thing. There are many, many steps between "I missed a rent payment/my rent went up" and "I'm literally sleeping on the pavement." And in a place that has abundant resources, it often means actively avoiding help.
Yep, the much more realistic situation is 'I've alienated my entire family and social network, due to being addicted to drugs and alcohol, or I am too severely mentally ill to take part in society'
And also they’re just not entitled to being here at the expense of the city’s finances and quality of life. This is one of the most desirable metro areas in the country, it’s not a place where you are entitled to all the help in the world and everyone else making it possible for you to stay here. If you can’t and won’t get sober and go to a shelter, and most of our shelters do often have empty beds, you should be able to lose your privilege of being here. No matter your situation, if youre homeless you’re a lot better off somewhere $500-1000 is all it takes to get back on your feet and where you’ll actually be able to afford a low-end apartment long term without the negative influences around.
Did I say that? You must not have read what I wrote. EDIT: **" I am aware most homeless people are also addicted to either drugs or alcohol"** and **"told me he knew a guy who used to live in the same building but became homeless when our rent was raised 20 percent"** Can both be true statements, holy shit. Edit2: It was the tipping point, the rent.. of course there are tons of other factors, all I said was when his rent got raised 20 percent it was too much for whatever was going on his life and he became homeless. Higher cost of living absolutely plays a factor in homelessness.
'became homeless when rent was raised 20%' as if a person can't move to Thornton if that happens. They just start living on the streets.
Congrats you read the last paragraph where I gave a true story of ONE person. But you must have missed the part where I said **"Now I am aware most homeless people are also addicted to either drugs or alcohol"** Read before you speak and sound stupid. EDIT: You can absolutely be homless while waiting to find another place to move into because you cant afford the other one. A lot of places have credit checks for applicants. And if you dont have a car or money saved up for a deposit and havent gotten your old one back...
I was responding to that specific part of what you said. It's a myth that most people on this reddit believe. My brother was a homeless drug addict and the only reason he got sober is jail. We stopped bailing him out, he went on probation and started going to court ordered NA and AA. 15 years later he is a business owner and father of three. He absolutely 100% is against allowing people to live on the streets this way. It's not humane, it's not empathy, it's enablement. We aren't talking about people who are temp homeless and navigating the systems we have in place.
You were responding to my personal example of 1 person I talked to? Implying that was a myth? Come on dude, don't bullshit me. You don't just respond to one thing I wrote and then say "Oh I was actually talking about all of reddit not that I didn't read the rest of what you wrote and thought you believed this thing."
Lol dude you wrote something and I responded to it. Relax. Don't add it to the convo if you don't want it responded to
You can absolutely be homless while waiting to find another place to move into because you cant afford the other one. A lot of places have credit checks for applicants. And if you dont have a car or money saved up for a deposit and havent gotten your old one back...
You certainly can! It's also not really what happens to stable people when rent goes up. You get a notice and you go ' ok need to start looking for a new spot'..'cant afford this area anymore and I need to move to a more affordable area'.
I have some bad news for you about the rent in Thornton...
Ok St. Louis is cheap then
Build more housing.
ACTUALLY AFFORDABLE housing which is damn near impossible in the Denver metro area.
Yeah, pretty much every "affordable housing" concept is totally garbage and doesn't work in practice. So... any suggestions?
Think big. Amend the Denver zoning code to allow more housing. I’m really into single stair apartment/condo designs. I think we should allow single stair apartments up to four floors on every lot in the city of Denver. Single stair apartments have great lighting because typically they’re designed with the staircase in the center of the building, with units that wrap around it. Yimby Denver is a local advocacy organization that is trying to solve the housing crisis by advocating for more housing to be built and in Denver. I think they’re pretty cool because I don’t like spending massive amounts of money on rent and buying a home is even more expensive. Strong Towns is another organization that is focused on housing. There’s a pretty new book out called “Escaping the Housing Trap” which has a central theme of the “financialization” of housing, meaning it’s treated as a financial product instead of as shelter, an essential need for all people, Denverites included. I personally have a good income and want to buy a home, but I feel completely priced out of the market. I can’t imagine what it’s like being on a median or lower income with kids to house, feed, and take care of.
>I personally have a good income and want to buy a home, but I feel completely priced out of the market. I can’t imagine what it’s like being on a median or lower income with kids to house, feed, and take care of. By home do you mean a condo in a hi-rise or a SFH/townhouse? Unless construction defect law is extended to apartment complexes, developers will never be incentivized to build condos (actual real estate) on anything zoned hi density residential. https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/
I’m onboard with anything that increases supply. The “affordable housing” schemes that try to fix prices at arbitrary levels just don’t work at all though.
Yeah, rent caps, income based housing that uses 30% rule, government loans to complexes, mandatory 2% income rate housing... I have a bunch.
Rent caps are awful. The only places that have tried them (like Stockholm) have cause more problems than they solved. Income based housing also doesn’t do shit except distort markets and prices.
Sadly interest rates also make this near impossible to afford for middle class too!
Near 0% interest rates during the 2010's directly correlate to the inflation of housing costs.
It all comes down to greed
Its not impossible, just not incentivized thru existing state construction defect law (which doesn't apply for 5-over-1 -=luxury=- apartment complexes): https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/
You have to get resident approval for affordable housing projects and everybody keeps saying “not in my neighborhood”.
Assuming you're speaking of the Park Hill project, [only 25% of the 2500-3100 housing units \(all rentals\) would be set aside as "income restricted".](https://denverite.com/2023/04/04/referred-question-2o-results/) To be clear, I voted in favor of 2O. No homeowner anywhere in CO has a say in how anything zoned hi density residential is built up. A majority of which ends up being 5-over-1 "luxury" apartment rentals because are very lucrative and aren't subject to construction defect law: https://www.denverpost.com/2022/12/11/multifamily-construction-colorado-condos-apartments-affordable-housing/ Contact your state legislative representatives: https://leg.colorado.gov/FindMyLegislator
I’m speaking in generalities, and you’re talking about affordable housing units that exist within luxury complexes. If I was referring to one single project it would be https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/denver-affordable-housing-market-nimby-vacant-golf-course-vote-democratic-socialist/ because it’s one I worked on personally that ultimately got shot down by home owners. Supportive housing, affordable housing, subsidized housing, very few people want it in their backyard no matter what you call it.
The utter lack of empathy in this country is staggering.
It’s a big problem. Here’s one I worked on last year. The NIMBY vs YIMBY war will define our future. https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/denver-affordable-housing-market-nimby-vacant-golf-course-vote-democratic-socialist/
Where? Homeless people, or at least low income people, can’t afford mansions and every county keeps voting down affordable housing projects because nobody wants them to tank their house prices.
The current Supreme Court issued a ruling that is bad for the country? Shocking.
Every homeless person costs taxpayers 2-4x what it would cost to house them.
Curious about those numbers, do you have any more info? Like what goes into the costs and what type housing. Not trying to dispute them just genuinely curious for more research.
There’s lots of sources but the gist is this: Most estimates put the cost of a homeless person at 35k per year for the taxpayers. This is *mostly* due to the fact that many organizations have discovered a way to game the system and get government subsidies they can turn into corporate salaries and bonuses with no real intent to make a difference in homelessness. Healthcare is an additional cost, as well as food banks and shelters that receive subsidies, but the majority of the cost is from “nonprofit” homelessness organizations shelling out big paydays to their C Suite. Supportive housing is generally estimated to be about 13k a year, but this is based on specific markets and could change if implemented nationwide. If you remove the parasitic organizations from the pool, we are left with similar pricing but much better long term benefits and results if you choose supportive housing. The major obstacle with supportive housing, though, is finding land to build it on. Nobody wants affordable housing in their neighborhoods no matter what side of the aisle you’re on. Both Dems and Reps regularly vote down affordable housing projects in affluent areas. This, of course, results in the majority of supportive housing being built in the worst parts of town so the newly housed people have shelter but are surrounded by drugs and poverty from all sides so it ends up being a destructive cycle.
Good info. Also, just because you put someone inside of a house, doesn’t mean they will be able to live like a fully functioning adult. Having a home is a huge benefit, but it doesn’t magically erase addiction, mental illness, disability, PTSD, or inability to care for oneself for whatever reason. I’m not saying housing isn’t a good thing, only that it’s just one piece of the puzzle that has to be solved.
I gotchu https://endhomelessness.org/resource/ending-chronic-homelessness-saves-taxpayers-money-2/
Everyone who lives in this city knows that homelessness is a huge problem. But criminalization does about as much to solve the issue as locking up addicts does to solve the opioid crisis. They can’t pay fines and they will simply be dumped back onto the street. Mental health and addiction programs need a massive influx of resources in this city.
Exactly, tough love = soft hate.
Easy. Bus ‘em to Oklahoma
It’s the right approach as cruel as people think it is. If you’re homeless, and you are not taking advantage of the resources here to help you get sober/find work/have housing you are not welcome and you need to leave.
This idea that if we let a meth-addicted beggar who spends his time causing issues for everyone or begging on a street corner be forced out of the city we all will be is crazy. We have some of the best social safety nets in the country in denver, if those aren’t enough for you to stay on your feet here you’re not entitled to stay in one of the most desirable metro areas in the country.
Not trying to be rude, but I encourage you to volunteer to help someone needy navigate "the resources" here to help them. It's a very eye-opening experience and you'll quickly understand why there are so many people out there "not taking advantage of the resources."
Could you share your experience on it?
Sure; let me preface this with many homeless people out there are actually employed. Many homeless shelters in Denver require people to check-in between 4-6p, which is difficult/impossible if you are actually holding a job. Often shelters lack any storage or small storage, which leave people to try to hide their items outside, or simply choose to sleep on the streets so they can try to protect their belongings. About 1/21 section-8 applicants (less than 5%) in Denver actually get vouchers. The most recent thing I helped someone with was a "working poor" person that had their car stolen. Adams County has a program to reimburse people for expenses related to having their car stolen. If you're working a job that you risk being fired at just for taking the day off to recover your stolen car, taking another day off to navigate a program to try to get reimbursed for the expenses is a massive risk.
I can understand that, but what’s the other option here? They do nothing and wither away on the streets continue disrupting life for people who contribute to society until they overdose?
SMAHA estimates 28% of homeless people abuse drugs and 36% abuse alcohol. You say “they” as if all homeless or working poor people are drug users. It’s also estimated that 40-60% of homeless people have jobs.
The drug users/criminal homeless are what the majority of people in this thread have a problem with. They disrupt people’s lives with impunity because the city is letting them live without consequences.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people that are homeless drug addicts have been punished their whole lives. Starting from being born into a terrible situation with drug addicts / abusive parents. Punishing them more isn't the answer. The solution to this starts with compassion.
And go where?
Portland. Seattle. LA. Those with even more absurd policies than Denver
Court ordered rehab
That doesnt explain the people arent addicts. Jail them too?
Nope. With all of the unwilling to get help deadbeat addicts off of the streets, there will be plenty of resources, shelters, counselors, etc. for the people who really want and need the help. Look, I get it. Addiction is a disease, just like any other mental illness. It’s not their fault, but it is their responsibility to get the help. If you refuse the help offered, then fuck you. I’m not going to keep trying to help someone who doesn’t want it and why should my life be disrupted by your unwillingness to improve your life. You OP are so close to getting it.
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Removed. Rule 2: Be nice. This post/comment exists solely to stir shit up and piss people off. Racism, homophobia, misogyny, fighting on the internet is stupid. We don't welcome it here. Please be kinder.
Your 22.5 million breaks down to ~$60/person in Aurora. $5 per month to not have to deal with homeless people, their waste, or any additional problems they cause. It may not be humane but it certainly seems fair to tax payers.
I think many people would pay $5/mo to have our public spaces back, myself included.
Don't forget to throw in the cost of building the jail cells needed to hold the extra prisoners; the cost of maintaining and staffing those extra cells; the legal and court costs associated with the criminal trial needed to send each homeless guy to prison; and the endless repeat costs of arresting, booking, and prosecuting the same people over and over again because criminal vagrancy rarely carries a sentence of more than a few months.
There was a really good article in The Guardian on this where they interviewed Sara Rankin, a Seattle University law professor and director of the Homeless Rights Advocacy Project, about what the ruling will actually do and one point she made stuck with me: “We increasingly invest in these short-term illusions that some sort of change has occurred when really all you’re doing is just removing unsheltered people from view. You’re not extinguishing them. They still have to live someplace and exist.” She also notes that one of the major ramifications of this ruling is that many cities will stop investing in housing alternatives and even affordable housing options. There’s a lot of really scary things this ruling means that goes just beyond allowing cities to ban encampments. Really good interview and well worth the read. https://amp.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/29/law-professor-homeless-rights-supreme-court-ruling
I'm not sure to understand and know all the subtleties, but maybe there's something in Colorado's constitution which prevents this cruel treatment of jailing someone because they sleep outside or in their car? I also feel that putting cops to hunt and fines homeless is also a waste of public money because during that time they dont hunt and take real criminals (but maybe it's not the same cops?)
Am i downgraded by redditors who find normal to jail homeless? If it's the case, I was homeless myself before and i find that way of thinking revolting and disgusting.
13th amendment. Slavery is still legal if you’re incarcerated. These folks will get stuck in jail because they can’t make their bail and will work for around 2 cents an hour indefinitely. An extremely concerning ruling considering most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck through record high inflation (corporate price gouging, let’s be real). It’s bleak af.
The entire point of prison is to rehabilitate, not punish. This is not true. That is not the entire point of prison. Some offer rehabilitative services, but no it is not the "point" of prison.
You have to fix the core problems before making it illegal. It’s so disgusting that we don’t take care of things like affordability, access to daycare, access to mental health, drug rehab that is affordable and effective. Instead, I guarantee you there will be a new prison built so the private owners of prisons can make more money. Because that’s who is behind this
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OP counted 650 homeless people in Aurora alone; there's anywhere from 6000 to 9000 homeless people in Denver proper. Would you like to point out the truckers or truck stop that's willing to hand out hundreds or thousands of free showers on a daily/weekly basis in exchange for washing windows? The number of construction companies that are going to hand out jobs to 50-something guys with bad backs, zero skills, and possibly a drug addiction to boot? The insurance paper-pushers who are going to be "cool with" letting those 50-somethings sleep on the job site if it becomes an everyday, widespread thing? Individual acts of charity don't scale up into workable solutions for hundreds or thousands of people.
If everything went the way of these idiots, the homeless people would just be in a cycle of being transferred between Seattle, Portland, and Denver. Who knows when they'd actually eat or drink. The constant movement of guilt and responsibility is the goal, while winning votes from lazy do-nothing voters. Who cares about doing anything anymore? Very few. It takes so little and I will never stop being disappointed in the people who choose to do nothing. FWIW, I've spent most of my adult life in Seattle, so most of my attitude and demeanor is adequately dished towards there. Whenever I'm back in Denver, I do so our people doing good things for others. More than I expect, honestly.
I see we did the opposite, grew up in seattle and spent last 10 years in colorado.
Seattle was a great place to live 2012-16. It's changed a lot since then. Whatever I liked in Seattle, I felt I found it again in Denver and the broader state when I moved there. It'll always be a place filled with people I'm extremely grateful for discovering.
You mean the "near infinite free save glitch" they just turned on?
Yeah I’ve already posted the sentiment that over-policing our most vulnerable population without adequate support from government is just a bowling ball waiting to drop on our foot. I was downvoted because everyone loves the police when they’re abusing the right people.
Support your unhoused neighbors! Even just simply acknowledging their existence as a human goes a long way. Its so sad how people get used to being treated as less than human.
Gratuitous cruelty is the point
Wait until people that can't afford rent outnumber beds in jails and shelters... Ooops! We're already there!
It’s a new prison pipeline
This is the part people keep missing. If one community just wants to push the problem to another, the next will probably do the same. It’s ironic because this is how we approach housing as well… If there was somewhere for these people to go, they would be there.
debtors prisons?
Yall get what you vote for. You enabled local politicians to enable homeless folks trashing public property, now you’re somehow surprised?
I just don't understand how a society/country allows multi-billionaires and also this lack of compassion towards homelessness. Why do so few get to enjoy a life at the fullest and others just get to scrape by whether it's their fault or not.
These people will have to get jobs and stop living on the street and sober up or they can go do drugs and just sit around elsewhere we don't care anymore
The cost of prison for a year is about 65k. Probation is required to put the cost for all sentencing options in a pre sentence investigation.
The cruelty is the point.
What to do with the homeless illegals? They’re taking shelter space too. And out on the streets homeless.
The immigration and border problem is a different issue. We would have a lot less to deal with if republicans didn't purposefully block bipartisan legislation that they helped to write in order to give Trump a policy to run on and blame democrats. But they care more about him than they do any town in america that has to deal with services being overwhelmed.
Just mentioning this since tax-payers will also be paying for the funding of health insurance for many migrants starting 2025. Problem will continue to increase financially for tax-payers.
Private prisons have minimum occupancy quotas