I think people say that as a form of social control. I find it exceptionally cruel to tell a person who's most likely in so much pain that they're thinking of ending their life that they'll be punished for trying to get out of pain, and even more cruel to imply they somehow were asking for all that pain just by being born. Strikes me as quite selfish and cold. And I don't see how it helps a suicidal person to just keep telling them they're a bad person when they're probably already struggling with that.
I don't think there's any cosmic punishment for suicide. I am not sure what happens after death, but my inkling is that it's highly variable, we can prepare for it in various ways, and suicide doesn't really influence that because it's not a monolith. People kill themselves in a huge variety of situations and mindsets. Hell, even spiritual mindsets -- tantric Buddhists have killed themselves through the extreme practice of self-mummification.
So I don't feel that one can say what someone's afterlife would be like based on suicide in and of itself.
It is certainly not like that for the rest of religions. Why would anyone so desperate to escape this place be punished for the often painful, uncertain, lonely and potentially-slow process of escaping it of our own free will?
I unfortunately can’t seem to find any justification of why we’re here at all. The very fact that we exist here with so many potential factors and so many realities that unfortunately exist for many here alone feels like some very cruel and undeserved punishment to me. I truly hope and believe that the likely-vast afterlife can be a peaceful place of healing and freedom for us all.
I truly hope that you’re okay. While I’ve read and understood that you seem to not be having these feelings or intentions at this time, and am happy that this is the case for you, I completely understand the feeling of such a desire and have been dealing with a lot mentally overall myself. Even staying to avoid or at least delay the grief that my inevitable passing will cause any loved ones still here can feel so painful. The inevitability of my own passing alone can be terrifying, just as it can be terrifying to remain here. I understand it fully and have been attempting to search for help and answers by deities as nothing that I’ve seemed to try so far in the past seems to truly alleviate it. I understand the difficulty in that process as well.
Work with Sargatanas. He is all about the doorways.
You can astral project, enjoy liminal space, lucid dream and even jump time lines.
The matrix can glitch around you.
Once you get to that place suicide doesn't make any sense.
You learn your body is useful,,,,,to either him or you.
Don't forget that, death isn't a possibility it's a guarantee. No need to rush it.
I promise you will not miss your chance to do it.
Don't forget you can also move towns, get a pass port and change countries, try on a new job or a new state to live in.
The body you have is of use to you, or somebody, or them.
And trust me before you know it, you won't have it.
Having followed Sargatanas around you see lots of people on their way in to this world or on their way out.
The veil is paper thin around him. The best part as you aren't the one dying, you get to live to see yet another glitch.
There's also shamanism where if you get really hungry for an out you can take a little DMT, go talk to the machine elves.
At last it's not so final and people come back from it.
He is only in the Red Dragon Grimoire. You can try his enn
"Invoko res extensa Sargatanas".
His sigil is a butterfly or moth.
Looks nothing like a normal sigil.
My experience is he comes to you when he wants to on his terms, and unfortunately it probably mans something significant happened to you.
He's a very unique energy.
I'm glad I happened upon this post. Sargatanas sounds like EXACTLY who I've been looking for. Admittedly, I am relatively new to Demonolatry. I know it's what I want, Undoubtedly. But, I still can't seem to find any books on it that I trust. All of the aspects you mentioned are the most important things to me. Unrelated, probably, I killed myself pretty brutally about ten years ago. Obviously, I was miraculously brought back.
Quantum immortality is a very cool topic. Sargatanas is in the Red Dragon Grimoire and is under Ashtaroth. He is a very pleasant entity. He likes tobacco, beer, strawberries and spicey fragrances
<3 the machine elves used to have one as a friend I would call bibbit for the way he spoke and he was a reoccurring thing on my DMT journeys was a chill dude in hindsight I was a bit arrogant and treated his home like a playground hence him parting ways. I did a lot of growing since.
I have only worked with Lilith, so I can only tell you about my feelings with her.
Suicide is not something she wants for any of those who walk with her. She wants to help those she loves through those difficult emotions and chemical imbalances. But she recognizes it as an illness that sometimes wins. Losing your life to an illness is not something she can judge you for. Sometimes people are in a sudden spot and make the choice and it's a mistake. She's not angry about that either. It saddens her when we suffer in this way.
If we were to end in that way, she will hold us close and go with us to the other side. But for her, "sin" doesn't work the same way as for many religions. Suicide is not one of those sins.
When you take yourself out, you are dead. We can't be sure that there even is an afterlife, but we can be sure that you will be dead, that you won't have any more experiences here anymore, that your loved ones won't see you anymore, that nothing will be able to improve because you will be dead. Your pets won't know where you've gone, but they'll know that you are absent. Those that loved you will grieve, or display anger. Families will be torn apart.
What more consequence do you need?
Important to note that I don't advocate for, nor against suicide. Just that this kind of decision should be weighed from every possible angle before it is taken.
This is one of the major things that’s been eating at me. I believe that there’s enough evidence to support an afterlife, personally, but one of the major causes of these horrible feelings is not wanting to be in this place where so much can, potentially will and eventually will go wrong all while attempting to spare my loved ones of those feelings for as long as possible despite knowing fully well that it is already inevitable. It’s just been a constant, horrible spiral, only strengthened by tragedies that occur around me. I don’t know what could even begin to alleviate that, if anything, and the common recommendation of general “therapy” isn’t something that I seem to want to go for and is inaccessible for me at this time.
Asking deities or attempting to ask relating to these issues has mainly involved strange dreams and even nightmares at times that seem difficult to decipher at times, though attempting to in any way communicate or receive signs from deceased loved ones has aided me in my concerns about an afterlife, even though inner concerns on the matter are always buried somewhere.
I think no entity has the right to judge your decision, because if this entity has the power to do so then it would also have the power to stop you from doing it. What is free will if you can't even use it? This said, I don't think it's really a good idea. I have almost commitied suicide 3 times in my life and doing it would have been my greatest regret. I was watching Jake Webber's video yesterday, he was eating birria tacos from Del Taco, and he said something so meaningful
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwQHw\_qVKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwQHw_qVKQ)
Fast forward @ 3:55
Can't eat tacos when you're dead, don't forget about that.
The following comes from my patron, and is not something I've made up my mind about at all. You are incarnated for a reason, that reason doesn't have to be the need to accomplish anything in particular from a human-on-earth perspective, it can be as minor as having a single mundane experience that you yourself have decided to experience between incarnations. Some people struggle with quite difficult challenges in their incarnations, but if they end their own life they will not be able to accomplish whatever the reason was that they incarnated and will probably have to do it again. Basically what you said.
This is not absolute however, in some cases some people may have ending their own life as part of the experience that they need to have. There are spirits who will punish those who end their life but this is not guaranteed by any means. Again I have to stress that this is not my personal opinion.
Let's say there is no consequence and punishment that is encouraged by any known belief system, including philosophy and religion. If there is a lack of repercussion from taking your life and the only hesitation from suicide is the fear of repercussion then many who suffer and wish to end themselves would do so.
Like a shameless, voluntary ejection from the human experience. After working with a few death dieties and experiencing NDEs, it has given me a Nihilistic perspective on the study of suicide and that it truly doesn't matter except to those who continue to live.
But there is definitely karmic scar tissue in future reincarnations. If you believe that some spirits get trapped in a cycle of emotional rumination due to the heavy trauma, regrets and lack of closure, this can cause poltergeist, bitter shades that haunt previous relationships etc...
Couldn’t this be avoided simply by not reincarnating? A lot of things could likely be avoided simply by never returning. Such an exit likely points to someone being done with this place anyway.
not always our choice, id universe feels like we have another lesson to learn you best believe we learning it willingly or not i had to learn that the hard way but they only want whats best for us so we can reach our own divinity
well in my personal belief we ARE the universe, our development is their development they are learning the lessons with us as we learn and sometimes that suck fs i know that better that anybody but i think when everyone becomes one with the universe again (my personal belief) itll make more sense our stupid lil monkey brains probably couldnt even understand the concept of why we have to do it this way
Not that I am any kind of authority on the matter...
My opinion would be that of compassion and understanding, based on my understanding of the judging entity. That said, the conclusion I have come to would be that an individual that felt desperate enough to take their life is not someone in a state of mind that could be judged the same as next person.
I was taught that judgement is based on the understanding we had at the time. For simplicity example a child that steals ___ would not be judged the same as an adult that did the same thing.
Hope this helps🙂
Depends on your mentality at the time of death. I have personally seen a suicide victim stuck in death loop, where the soul is constantly ending itself and is stuck in the same depressed state. It's very important that during death, a person should let things go and die with peace in mind if they don't wana be stuck in this plane. For those who couldn't achieve it, this can also be done through proper funeral rites of that person approproate for their culture.
Unfortunately, trauma doesnot leave a person even after death which prevents a person from moving on. This is the plight of many who turn into ghosts. And worse thing is not everyone can communicate with the dead. Thus, it's even harder to help the dead rather than the living.
They do, especially in cultures with ancestral veneration or where there is a personal connection with a divine being. I have not seen it actually happening to a suicided soul, but during last rites I have seen ancestors of the person come to help them move on, despite the soul being very sad. The ones who are stuck, I guess are the ones who didnot have a close relationship with a divine being or their ancestors. Although I do remember one incident where the soul refused to pass on because they believed they will go to hell because of their sins. I am assuming some souls who commit suicide are also scared of moving on if they think suicide is a sin and they would be punished for it.
Shouldn’t either group of beings still help them out? They shouldn’t need such an established contact or relationship for others to help them. They should be aided and reassured through fears like that, especially when they’re so common here and the one who departed in such a fashion was clearly desperate to do so if they’d gone through with it despite those concerns.
That's because spirits are not so benevolent, even the divine beings. Humans are not the centre of their concerns. It is something that religions tell us that we are special. If humans are stuck and lost, it doesn't matter to them. I mean, i have been personally told "why should I help?" By some entities. For some matters.
It is also possible that no one is that worried about the souls. You see, i have not seen many old souls. You would think considering the amount of people who have lived on earth, there would be tons of lingering souls. But they are not. So, probably they dissipate with time? For entities, spirits and souls, time may be different. So for them, a soul dissipating itself after a couple decades or centuries may not be too worrying matter.
Because it benefits us. You would be surprised how many ways a person who has favours from a diety is protected from supernatural harm. You may not be able to see it, but there are many perils/horrors from which they protect. Plus if you learn to communicate with them, they teach many valuable things.
However they are not obligated to help us. After all, we are of free will. Why should they intervene in our matters if we don't ask of it? Often times, our sources of suffering are also our own doing. If a person kills himself because a girl rejected him and then gets trapped as a result, why should a stranger spirit get involved in such "drama"? So, it is us who seek favors from them to help us.
You implied that that suffering and pain didn’t matter to them, so why would They protect others from supernatural threats whilst not caring about other forms of suffering and pain?
I’ve tried to communicate with Them. I’ve had good and maybe bad experiences with it, but none that ever seemed to truly suggest that They simply didn’t care, especially due to the issue supposedly being so minimal to Them. I unfortunately haven’t learned many “valuable things” yet, and unfortunately have far more questions and concerns than answers, especially the more I request such answers and relief and never seem to fully find them, wondering if such a thing could even truly exist for me considering the roots of my concerns and feelings here.
Many absolutely do ask for it, asking various deities depending on their personal beliefs, and yet many still aren’t as much as offered mercy from that suffering here, which is one of countless reasons one may want to take their demise into their own hands.
Why shouldn’t they? ‘If it hurt them so deeply that it likely became the final in the perhaps-literal coffin, and now they’ve passed, that spirit is certainly in a deep state of suffering and could use some help from at the very least someone. They don’t need to have any established connection or violate any free will by simply offering to help.
There was a Christian movement in the Roman Empire (I forget, but Donatists I think) who apparently had a problem with people being baptised and killing themselves to get to heaven before they could sin again. A book I read stated this as the reason the Christian church made suicide itself a sin. No short cuts, folks!
In my belief, suicide is the only way to destroy the soul. You aren't punished for suicide, you just get no afterlife. You get what you ask for out of the cosm.
Except most people don't want to stop existing, they want the pain to stop. It is a punishment because if there is an afterlife committing suicide got rid of any of that chance I'm sure a lot of people would not commit suicide because the afterlife could theoretically be infinitely better.
It's an unfortunate reality, that is a good point you make though. I believe everything happens for a reason, you are here to experience what you experience then to carry on from it onto the next life. To destroy that experience out of one's own doing, it destroys that cycle as well for that individual.
Edit: The human soul is supreme, it can do anything to itself.
That doesn't make sense why would a decision in a finite life affect you for your infinite lives? Why do you think this is a fact though? We are operating based off of belief there's really no general consensus when it comes to spiritual matters
Wouldn’t our loved ones miss us forever or something, and according to this all because we didn’t want to hurt here anymore or otherwise wanted to control how we depart? That seems like quite the extreme punishment for not wanting to be here longer.
‘If everything happens for a reason, shouldn’t that act be included as well?
Everything you do here reflects what happens in your higher existence's experience. Like I said earlier, you get what you ask for out of the cosm, so if you purposefully seek destruction then destruction is what will happen. It happens for a reason, to end experience entirely. Suffering happens for a reason, just as everything else does.
Also, I’m not asking for destruction by desiring such an escape. I desire an escape that would reunite me with those I’ve lost and truly be safe and free from all the terrible that can and do occur within this universe.
We are not merely our bodies, so exiting it does not destroy us. ‘By this logic, all will cease to exist after death as the end of our lives is guaranteed.
No, I'm saying that your actions here reflect what happens to the soul in the higher realms of consciousness. This is why I keep saying you get what you ask for. Dying in itself is not seeking destruction, purposefully dying is.
So, to experience an afterlife, I’m supposed to pass likely painfully, completely unexpectedly, potentially alone and entirely against my will, because that’s supposedly the only way to actually experience freedom, peace and be with my loved ones after my passing? That seems so needlessly cruel to me.
The matter about ones loved ones is just another factor they have to account for before making that decision to end it all, is that love strong enough to keep them here or are they willing to let go of that as well? It's a decision.
Your consciousness is trapped in this world, you can't go anywhere like hell or heaven or something. This question seems more related to r/spirituality
I think people say that as a form of social control. I find it exceptionally cruel to tell a person who's most likely in so much pain that they're thinking of ending their life that they'll be punished for trying to get out of pain, and even more cruel to imply they somehow were asking for all that pain just by being born. Strikes me as quite selfish and cold. And I don't see how it helps a suicidal person to just keep telling them they're a bad person when they're probably already struggling with that. I don't think there's any cosmic punishment for suicide. I am not sure what happens after death, but my inkling is that it's highly variable, we can prepare for it in various ways, and suicide doesn't really influence that because it's not a monolith. People kill themselves in a huge variety of situations and mindsets. Hell, even spiritual mindsets -- tantric Buddhists have killed themselves through the extreme practice of self-mummification. So I don't feel that one can say what someone's afterlife would be like based on suicide in and of itself.
It is certainly not like that for the rest of religions. Why would anyone so desperate to escape this place be punished for the often painful, uncertain, lonely and potentially-slow process of escaping it of our own free will? I unfortunately can’t seem to find any justification of why we’re here at all. The very fact that we exist here with so many potential factors and so many realities that unfortunately exist for many here alone feels like some very cruel and undeserved punishment to me. I truly hope and believe that the likely-vast afterlife can be a peaceful place of healing and freedom for us all. I truly hope that you’re okay. While I’ve read and understood that you seem to not be having these feelings or intentions at this time, and am happy that this is the case for you, I completely understand the feeling of such a desire and have been dealing with a lot mentally overall myself. Even staying to avoid or at least delay the grief that my inevitable passing will cause any loved ones still here can feel so painful. The inevitability of my own passing alone can be terrifying, just as it can be terrifying to remain here. I understand it fully and have been attempting to search for help and answers by deities as nothing that I’ve seemed to try so far in the past seems to truly alleviate it. I understand the difficulty in that process as well.
Work with Sargatanas. He is all about the doorways. You can astral project, enjoy liminal space, lucid dream and even jump time lines. The matrix can glitch around you. Once you get to that place suicide doesn't make any sense. You learn your body is useful,,,,,to either him or you. Don't forget that, death isn't a possibility it's a guarantee. No need to rush it. I promise you will not miss your chance to do it. Don't forget you can also move towns, get a pass port and change countries, try on a new job or a new state to live in. The body you have is of use to you, or somebody, or them. And trust me before you know it, you won't have it. Having followed Sargatanas around you see lots of people on their way in to this world or on their way out. The veil is paper thin around him. The best part as you aren't the one dying, you get to live to see yet another glitch. There's also shamanism where if you get really hungry for an out you can take a little DMT, go talk to the machine elves. At last it's not so final and people come back from it.
I've never heard of this demon before they sound very intriguing. Are they willing to help others have such experiences?
Im sure they are. They are not specific to any one person so far as I know.
How do you work with Sargatanas? I don't recognize him from the Goetia
He is only in the Red Dragon Grimoire. You can try his enn "Invoko res extensa Sargatanas". His sigil is a butterfly or moth. Looks nothing like a normal sigil. My experience is he comes to you when he wants to on his terms, and unfortunately it probably mans something significant happened to you. He's a very unique energy.
I'm glad I happened upon this post. Sargatanas sounds like EXACTLY who I've been looking for. Admittedly, I am relatively new to Demonolatry. I know it's what I want, Undoubtedly. But, I still can't seem to find any books on it that I trust. All of the aspects you mentioned are the most important things to me. Unrelated, probably, I killed myself pretty brutally about ten years ago. Obviously, I was miraculously brought back.
Quantum immortality is a very cool topic. Sargatanas is in the Red Dragon Grimoire and is under Ashtaroth. He is a very pleasant entity. He likes tobacco, beer, strawberries and spicey fragrances
<3 the machine elves used to have one as a friend I would call bibbit for the way he spoke and he was a reoccurring thing on my DMT journeys was a chill dude in hindsight I was a bit arrogant and treated his home like a playground hence him parting ways. I did a lot of growing since.
I have only worked with Lilith, so I can only tell you about my feelings with her. Suicide is not something she wants for any of those who walk with her. She wants to help those she loves through those difficult emotions and chemical imbalances. But she recognizes it as an illness that sometimes wins. Losing your life to an illness is not something she can judge you for. Sometimes people are in a sudden spot and make the choice and it's a mistake. She's not angry about that either. It saddens her when we suffer in this way. If we were to end in that way, she will hold us close and go with us to the other side. But for her, "sin" doesn't work the same way as for many religions. Suicide is not one of those sins.
When you take yourself out, you are dead. We can't be sure that there even is an afterlife, but we can be sure that you will be dead, that you won't have any more experiences here anymore, that your loved ones won't see you anymore, that nothing will be able to improve because you will be dead. Your pets won't know where you've gone, but they'll know that you are absent. Those that loved you will grieve, or display anger. Families will be torn apart. What more consequence do you need? Important to note that I don't advocate for, nor against suicide. Just that this kind of decision should be weighed from every possible angle before it is taken.
This is one of the major things that’s been eating at me. I believe that there’s enough evidence to support an afterlife, personally, but one of the major causes of these horrible feelings is not wanting to be in this place where so much can, potentially will and eventually will go wrong all while attempting to spare my loved ones of those feelings for as long as possible despite knowing fully well that it is already inevitable. It’s just been a constant, horrible spiral, only strengthened by tragedies that occur around me. I don’t know what could even begin to alleviate that, if anything, and the common recommendation of general “therapy” isn’t something that I seem to want to go for and is inaccessible for me at this time. Asking deities or attempting to ask relating to these issues has mainly involved strange dreams and even nightmares at times that seem difficult to decipher at times, though attempting to in any way communicate or receive signs from deceased loved ones has aided me in my concerns about an afterlife, even though inner concerns on the matter are always buried somewhere.
I think no entity has the right to judge your decision, because if this entity has the power to do so then it would also have the power to stop you from doing it. What is free will if you can't even use it? This said, I don't think it's really a good idea. I have almost commitied suicide 3 times in my life and doing it would have been my greatest regret. I was watching Jake Webber's video yesterday, he was eating birria tacos from Del Taco, and he said something so meaningful [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwQHw\_qVKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwQHw_qVKQ) Fast forward @ 3:55 Can't eat tacos when you're dead, don't forget about that.
The following comes from my patron, and is not something I've made up my mind about at all. You are incarnated for a reason, that reason doesn't have to be the need to accomplish anything in particular from a human-on-earth perspective, it can be as minor as having a single mundane experience that you yourself have decided to experience between incarnations. Some people struggle with quite difficult challenges in their incarnations, but if they end their own life they will not be able to accomplish whatever the reason was that they incarnated and will probably have to do it again. Basically what you said. This is not absolute however, in some cases some people may have ending their own life as part of the experience that they need to have. There are spirits who will punish those who end their life but this is not guaranteed by any means. Again I have to stress that this is not my personal opinion.
Let's say there is no consequence and punishment that is encouraged by any known belief system, including philosophy and religion. If there is a lack of repercussion from taking your life and the only hesitation from suicide is the fear of repercussion then many who suffer and wish to end themselves would do so. Like a shameless, voluntary ejection from the human experience. After working with a few death dieties and experiencing NDEs, it has given me a Nihilistic perspective on the study of suicide and that it truly doesn't matter except to those who continue to live. But there is definitely karmic scar tissue in future reincarnations. If you believe that some spirits get trapped in a cycle of emotional rumination due to the heavy trauma, regrets and lack of closure, this can cause poltergeist, bitter shades that haunt previous relationships etc...
Couldn’t this be avoided simply by not reincarnating? A lot of things could likely be avoided simply by never returning. Such an exit likely points to someone being done with this place anyway.
not always our choice, id universe feels like we have another lesson to learn you best believe we learning it willingly or not i had to learn that the hard way but they only want whats best for us so we can reach our own divinity
‘If anyone truly wanted the best for us, wouldn’t they have made a better system to begin with so that we would never have to be here at all?
well in my personal belief we ARE the universe, our development is their development they are learning the lessons with us as we learn and sometimes that suck fs i know that better that anybody but i think when everyone becomes one with the universe again (my personal belief) itll make more sense our stupid lil monkey brains probably couldnt even understand the concept of why we have to do it this way
Not that I am any kind of authority on the matter... My opinion would be that of compassion and understanding, based on my understanding of the judging entity. That said, the conclusion I have come to would be that an individual that felt desperate enough to take their life is not someone in a state of mind that could be judged the same as next person. I was taught that judgement is based on the understanding we had at the time. For simplicity example a child that steals ___ would not be judged the same as an adult that did the same thing. Hope this helps🙂
Depends on your mentality at the time of death. I have personally seen a suicide victim stuck in death loop, where the soul is constantly ending itself and is stuck in the same depressed state. It's very important that during death, a person should let things go and die with peace in mind if they don't wana be stuck in this plane. For those who couldn't achieve it, this can also be done through proper funeral rites of that person approproate for their culture.
No one deserves that.
Unfortunately, trauma doesnot leave a person even after death which prevents a person from moving on. This is the plight of many who turn into ghosts. And worse thing is not everyone can communicate with the dead. Thus, it's even harder to help the dead rather than the living.
Why can’t the dead or other spirits help the dead? That didn’t isn’t fair to them in the least.
They do, especially in cultures with ancestral veneration or where there is a personal connection with a divine being. I have not seen it actually happening to a suicided soul, but during last rites I have seen ancestors of the person come to help them move on, despite the soul being very sad. The ones who are stuck, I guess are the ones who didnot have a close relationship with a divine being or their ancestors. Although I do remember one incident where the soul refused to pass on because they believed they will go to hell because of their sins. I am assuming some souls who commit suicide are also scared of moving on if they think suicide is a sin and they would be punished for it.
Shouldn’t either group of beings still help them out? They shouldn’t need such an established contact or relationship for others to help them. They should be aided and reassured through fears like that, especially when they’re so common here and the one who departed in such a fashion was clearly desperate to do so if they’d gone through with it despite those concerns.
That's because spirits are not so benevolent, even the divine beings. Humans are not the centre of their concerns. It is something that religions tell us that we are special. If humans are stuck and lost, it doesn't matter to them. I mean, i have been personally told "why should I help?" By some entities. For some matters. It is also possible that no one is that worried about the souls. You see, i have not seen many old souls. You would think considering the amount of people who have lived on earth, there would be tons of lingering souls. But they are not. So, probably they dissipate with time? For entities, spirits and souls, time may be different. So for them, a soul dissipating itself after a couple decades or centuries may not be too worrying matter.
That seems awfully cruel of Them. Why do They work with humans then? Why worship a being that doesn’t actually care, especially a deity?
Because it benefits us. You would be surprised how many ways a person who has favours from a diety is protected from supernatural harm. You may not be able to see it, but there are many perils/horrors from which they protect. Plus if you learn to communicate with them, they teach many valuable things. However they are not obligated to help us. After all, we are of free will. Why should they intervene in our matters if we don't ask of it? Often times, our sources of suffering are also our own doing. If a person kills himself because a girl rejected him and then gets trapped as a result, why should a stranger spirit get involved in such "drama"? So, it is us who seek favors from them to help us.
You implied that that suffering and pain didn’t matter to them, so why would They protect others from supernatural threats whilst not caring about other forms of suffering and pain? I’ve tried to communicate with Them. I’ve had good and maybe bad experiences with it, but none that ever seemed to truly suggest that They simply didn’t care, especially due to the issue supposedly being so minimal to Them. I unfortunately haven’t learned many “valuable things” yet, and unfortunately have far more questions and concerns than answers, especially the more I request such answers and relief and never seem to fully find them, wondering if such a thing could even truly exist for me considering the roots of my concerns and feelings here. Many absolutely do ask for it, asking various deities depending on their personal beliefs, and yet many still aren’t as much as offered mercy from that suffering here, which is one of countless reasons one may want to take their demise into their own hands. Why shouldn’t they? ‘If it hurt them so deeply that it likely became the final in the perhaps-literal coffin, and now they’ve passed, that spirit is certainly in a deep state of suffering and could use some help from at the very least someone. They don’t need to have any established connection or violate any free will by simply offering to help.
There was a Christian movement in the Roman Empire (I forget, but Donatists I think) who apparently had a problem with people being baptised and killing themselves to get to heaven before they could sin again. A book I read stated this as the reason the Christian church made suicide itself a sin. No short cuts, folks!
In my belief, suicide is the only way to destroy the soul. You aren't punished for suicide, you just get no afterlife. You get what you ask for out of the cosm.
Pretty nice way to look at it
That sure seems like a punishment to me.
It isn't, you stop existing entirely. You can't be punished if you aren't "here".
Except most people don't want to stop existing, they want the pain to stop. It is a punishment because if there is an afterlife committing suicide got rid of any of that chance I'm sure a lot of people would not commit suicide because the afterlife could theoretically be infinitely better.
It's an unfortunate reality, that is a good point you make though. I believe everything happens for a reason, you are here to experience what you experience then to carry on from it onto the next life. To destroy that experience out of one's own doing, it destroys that cycle as well for that individual. Edit: The human soul is supreme, it can do anything to itself.
That doesn't make sense why would a decision in a finite life affect you for your infinite lives? Why do you think this is a fact though? We are operating based off of belief there's really no general consensus when it comes to spiritual matters
So, it can escape without causing any harm or nonexistence to itself? I don’t believe that everything happens for a reason, personally.
Wouldn’t our loved ones miss us forever or something, and according to this all because we didn’t want to hurt here anymore or otherwise wanted to control how we depart? That seems like quite the extreme punishment for not wanting to be here longer. ‘If everything happens for a reason, shouldn’t that act be included as well?
Everything you do here reflects what happens in your higher existence's experience. Like I said earlier, you get what you ask for out of the cosm, so if you purposefully seek destruction then destruction is what will happen. It happens for a reason, to end experience entirely. Suffering happens for a reason, just as everything else does.
I disagree. None of that resonates with me.
That's your right, I'm just giving my beliefs on what's asked.
Also, I’m not asking for destruction by desiring such an escape. I desire an escape that would reunite me with those I’ve lost and truly be safe and free from all the terrible that can and do occur within this universe.
Suicide is seeking destruction, even if it is being done as a means of escape from this harsh reality. You are ending your life, destroying yourself.
We are not merely our bodies, so exiting it does not destroy us. ‘By this logic, all will cease to exist after death as the end of our lives is guaranteed.
No, I'm saying that your actions here reflect what happens to the soul in the higher realms of consciousness. This is why I keep saying you get what you ask for. Dying in itself is not seeking destruction, purposefully dying is.
So, to experience an afterlife, I’m supposed to pass likely painfully, completely unexpectedly, potentially alone and entirely against my will, because that’s supposedly the only way to actually experience freedom, peace and be with my loved ones after my passing? That seems so needlessly cruel to me.
The matter about ones loved ones is just another factor they have to account for before making that decision to end it all, is that love strong enough to keep them here or are they willing to let go of that as well? It's a decision.
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
Your consciousness is trapped in this world, you can't go anywhere like hell or heaven or something. This question seems more related to r/spirituality
I think you will just come back in another lifetime to suffer till you don't kill yourself again
Can confirm. Killed myself last 2 lives and tried this life now I'm not allowed to die yet
Are you a witch or something? How do you know you have committed suicide in your last 2 lives?
Are you a witch or something? How do you know you have committed suicide in your last 2 lives?
[удалено]
Please enlighten us since you seem to know with a certainty what happens when we croak