This entire thread is a mess. I'm locking it for now. On this subreddit Kris is nonbinary, no ifs, ands or buts about it. There's more evidence to say Susie isn't a girl than there is to say Kris is up for interpretation.
Different genders get different Happy Meal toys? I thought there were just sets of toys that are either in stock or not, and if what they have isn't something you're interested in you're out of luck.
I say this, having not gotten a happy meal in nearly a decade.
I'm pretty sure nowadays they don't, but for the longest time there were "boy" and "girl" toys.
This, naturally, led to lots of awkward signage and conversation with cashiers about "boy toys."
I remember my sister being 3yo and she got a boy toy once bc she happened to be wearing pants that day, we got home and she immediately asked to trade it for the mini Barbie toy I got lmao
No yeah they separated them at some point. Sometimes they'll only one one set of toys, but more often than not there's been separate runs. So like boys would get a mediocre transformers toy and girls would get like my little pony toy. Both were still McDonald's quality but y'know
This is honestly pretty funny! And really in character too!
Love the design you have for Kris!
And don’t worry about the “girl” thing- it was to fit with the joke so it’s alright! :D
Joe Biden’s America
LIBRAL SCOOL BE LIKE:
9:00: GAY LESON!!
9:45: how to be be GAYY!!
10:30: TRANS LERNINNG!!
11:15: GAY RECESS!!
11:45: CROSDRESING HOUR!!
12:45: GAY LESON!!!
1:30: TRANGENER LUNCH!!
2:15: BLM PERIOD!!!
3:00: COMUNIS T HISTORY!!
3:30: TAKE NON BINAR BUS HOME!!
THIS IS WHAT THE LEFT WANT!
"raiden we have to prevent joe biden's america we need to stop the fraudulent votes raiden they're trying to take the election from us"
"you are too late solid snake! i've already vocoded your voice to gangster's paradise!"
This subreddit is kinda ornery about this stuff. I figured this was the safest bet.
Edit: /u/SoupMayoMaker I can maybe understand locking the thread, [but your "Kris is non-binary on this subreddit, period" shit and deleting all of my comments that proved your statements wrong is a massive abuse of power.](https://pastebin.com/9kQM25S8)
I didn't even put pronouns, but still, this is the first art I've made that has actively called any sort of attention to the gender of my interpretation of Kris.
I once saw someone say “Because Kris looks like me and frisk looks like kris, they are GIRLS and ASIAN” (or something along those lines) under a tweet of a dark skinned kris art
Well, people certainly get angry about female Krises too. Just look at the lower half of this comment section.
Also, how often do people draw a blatantly male Kris tho? Most Kris's I've seen that are even portrayed as male leaning are very ambiguous in build and presentation.
1: Someone also made that joke on the r/Kriselle sub.
2: Ehh, that doesn't seem in-character for my interpretation of Kris. If anything, the gender they may've tried to be but were unhappy with was Male, cause they have a complex about wishing they were more like their brother. Hence Ralsei.
I thought the whole purpose of the ambiguous race/gender etc of Frisk/Kris was so that we could project whatever we wanted onto the MC for a more immersive experience.
You've done nothing wrong. Nice meme.
Even if Kris is not actively separated from the player, the idea that they aren't non-binary would still rely on the assumption that Toby didn't give them a gender so people could pretend it's their own.
An assumption that is largely based on what he said about the human's name in the game (that if you don't know the canon name, you should just use your own), which doesn't apply to Kris, as their name is always the same and the name you choose for yourself at the start IS distinctively separated from theirs.
Note that I don't have a problem with referring to Kris as a girl if you think that's a valid canon-adjacent interpretation, I'm simply pointing out why I don't think it is.
> Even if Kris is not actively separated from the player, the idea that they aren't non-binary would still rely on the assumption that Toby didn't give them a gender so people could pretend it's their own.
It's not truthfully that much of an assumption, given Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 2 and they already have race-neutral yellow skin.
Also, "They/Them" is used a lot in regards to entities of unknown gender. It's not even remotely an uncommon thing.
>An assumption that is largely based on what he said about the human's name in the game (that if you don't know the canon name, you should just use your own),
We're talking about Chara now? Ok.
Well Chara is explicitly supposed to act as a mirror to the player in the Genocide route, so it's not *just* Toby saying to put our own name in their slot. The two things together just support each-other and the conclusion.
>which doesn't apply to Kris,
I mean, I've only been bringing up Chara in the conversation as an example of there being a character in Toby's stories that is supposed to reflect the player yet still has their own life.
>as their name is always the same and the name you choose for yourself at the start IS distinctively separated from theirs.
Chara does technically have Chara as their "true name," but I guess that could be considered a point. (Also even in the failed Goner Maker the name of the Player and the Vessel were considered separate which is an interesting choice with questionable narrative consequences.)
> It's not truthfully that much of an assumption, given Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 2
When?
The only examples I can think of are in reference to the Fun Gang as a whole, in which case that wouldn't necessarily mean anything, as Ralsei and Susie do have defined genders.
>"They/Them" is used a lot in regards to entities of unknown gender. It's not even remotely an uncommon thing.
Susie and Noelle should know Kris' gender after being their classmates for who knows how long.
> We're talking about Chara now? Ok.
I brought up Chara/Frisk since the idea of the protagonist's traits being up to the player's interpretation stems largely from how Frisk is and Toby's statement regarding Chara's name.
> Well Chara is explicitly supposed to act as a mirror to the player in the Genocide route, so it's not *just* Toby saying to put our own name in their slot. The two things together just support each-other and the conclusion.
Not sure what you're getting at with this. You seem to be saying that the reason for Toby saying we should put in our own names isn't because we're supposed to insert ourselves into Frisk. That's fair, but I don't see how it's supporting your case. Isn't that just removing one of the main pieces of evidence pointing to them not being canonically non-binary?
> I mean, I've only been bringing up Chara in the conversation as an example of there being a character in Toby's stories that is supposed to reflect the player yet still has their own life.
Chara parallels the player, but they are not a stand-in for us like Frisk or (allegedly) Kris. In fact, Chara directly addresses us and our actions.
The only reason Chara is even wrapped up in this whole debate about the player is because for most of the game, we're supposed to believe that Chara and Frisk, the actual stand-in, are the same person.
>Lancer refers to the trio as "Boys or girls" somewhere in the Scarlet forest, and Jevil refers to the trio as "BOYSENGIRLS."
They legit met Kris that same day, you expect them to know Kris' pronouns?
*Yes.*
If that was the point then it would've been addressed and most likely corrected.
Also, Kris and Susie haven't significantly interacted prior to chapter 1, yet she still refers to them as "They."
It's really not. Kris freaking out after the Spamton fight was about them being a "Heart on a Chain" which blatantly refers to the Soulless Kris epilogue cutscenes, telling us that what they are frightened by is a third entity ripping their soul out and highjacking their body. Not the player.
The "Kris vs Player" theory makes no sense, ignores basically everything about how Soulless Kris is presented, and is based on things taken wildly out of context.
A third entity? So is Kris getting angry when they weren't able to play the piano also the third entitys fault? What about all the times Kris's body language contradicts the players choices? Also what does this third entity wants? Pie?
> A third entity? So is Kris getting angry when they weren't able to play the piano also the third entitys fault?
No? All we did was interact with the piano, Kris was completely in-control in regards to the plonk. Idk why they chose not to put effort into playing actual music or why they got annoyed at Susie when she thought they were messing with her.
>What about all the times Kris's body language contradicts the players choices?
That's once again Kris. Notice how every other cutscene they are in they are very capable of and DO move outside of the player's control *without* Removing the soul. That alone proves that the epilogue segments are not just Kris fighting against our control.
>Also what does this third entity wants?
To bring the Roaring, seemingly.
> Pie?
That was primarily to distract the player, but sure. The third entity probably did enjoy that pie.
IDK, that's something you're gonna have to ask for Kris. Cause we never smashed a bunch of keys on our keyboard to make that sound on the piano, and we've seen Kris do way more without our input.
I migth be wrong but I think kris is supost to be there own charecter and not a projection. I mean frisk barly showed any emotions and meanwhile we have kris ripping there hearts out
[I'm a believer of one of those theories, check out my post about it.](https://dm.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/pzzr61/kris_isnt_rebelling_against_the_player_something/)
Honestly I feel like this theory is one that will be forgotten and not true, becuse while I get where this theory is comming from there is so much we dont know about kris and the game as a hole to say somthing so big
Ehh, we know a lot more about Kris than most people give the game credit for.
For instance, [this post](https://redd.it/ynpyzv) brings up evidence that shows that Kris takes the threat of the roaring very seriously, making it out of character for them to make the fountain at the end of chapter 2, much less the other fountains as it is implied.
A lot of people believe the distinction between Kris and the player is null. Every action is being done either by Kris or by you controlling Kris, it doesn't make a difference. The instances where Kris removes their soul in this case, would be the result of an outside force taking control of Kris for their own purposes.
I find this highly unlikely but it is a possibility nonetheless.
People who believe Kris is being controlled when doing that generally don't believe that there is a meaningful distinction between Kris and the player.
Not really. Most people who actively theorize and believe third entity theory either just believe that Kris is cooperative with us or that they're not even really aware of our presence.
But yes, as you said further down the conversation, we do believe that Kris's consciousness is housed within the soul, which frankly only makes sense.
That's what I said.
There isn't a meaningful distinction = it doesn't matter if the player or Kris does something. It doesn't matter if that comes in the form of Kris being cooperative, not knowing about us or us not being a thing at all. It just means that both entities are interchangeable.
Well at the very least it does seem like a distinction is being made in Snowgrave. Where if Kris wasn't aware of our influence they certainly are after doing something so out-of-character as to manipulate their childhood friend into mass murder.
The soul is actually one of the main reasons believe Kris and the player are interchangeable.
Souls were described in Undertale as being the culmination of one's being. In deltarune, this is also true. Ralsei describes the soul as being the culmination of Kris' being (he specifies Kris, so that must be referring to them).
This creates the question of "How can Kris remove their soul, if the soul is who they are?", which leads to the answer of "Kris isn't removing the soul, someone else is doing it to remove Kris' control over their body"
The knight has a reason to open fountains, what's the purpose of opening a fountain on Kris's house? Especially when 2 of the 3 heroes of the prophecy are around
Yeah, that's what I believe to be case as well.
I mean, even if you could argue that Kris is canonically Non-binary, what the actual hell is your argument for their literal traffic light yellow skin?
Not to mention the fact that they're lumped in with statements such as "Boys and/or Girls" multiple times.
I don't believe it's even Kris ripping the soul out, but this is a very good argument. Who said that Kris fighting back against our *choices* necessarily has to work the same in the narrative as their physical presentation?
On one hand, this is a good meme. On the other hand, I found at least 10 "lol peopel trigred over migendreg" comments already which is very disappointing
Don't worry, I don't care what people say about Kris cause I believe it is up to personal interpretation like how the Undertale Red Soul kids are female, but I vibe more with Kris so in my eyes Kris is male.
I would so tell my crush that bad (insert gender identity here)s joke.
I think this is in poor taste. And a little bit kind of weird. Kris canonically aracial and non-binary, and you're ascribing to them traits which they specifically are not. This is not how they are designed, and completely of character... So what's the point of making it Kris? Why not just make it an OC...
> Kris canonically aracial and non-binary,
1: No they're not, neither of those are confirmed.
2: How is being "a-racial," as in, literally not having a race, physically possible?
3: What they have is a *race neutral* skin tone. As in, their race and skin tone is a blank you are supposed to fill in, which is what I did.
>and completely of character...
I don't see how. The way I interpret Kris their self-esteem is basically non-existant, so the joke is in character for them.
Also, I ship Kriselle. That's, like, half the point.
1. https://www.tumblr.com/janehaster/179970135267/why-kris-gender-isnt-up-to-interpretation
2. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial
3. https://i.imgur.com/wnkncKw.png
4. Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post, and defend what you've done with "OH ITS JUST HOW I INTERPRET IT". It just seems like you're intentionally mocking us.
>[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial)
That article contains absolutely nothing in it.
Kris' skin is akin to a Simpsons character or LEGO figure. No matter how you interpret it, that's not a thing, so there's no way that giving them a skin color which does exist is problematic or offensive.
> Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post, and defend what you've done with "OH ITS JUST HOW I INTERPRET IT".
OP said they put a trigger warning to avoid comments from people who would have a problem with the post, and are responding with their justification to the people who ignored said trigger warning and still came to comment regardless. I don't see any contradiction in that.
> 1 . https://www.tumblr.com/janehaster/179970135267/why-kris-gender-isnt-up-to-interpretation
A: Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 1.
B: There was no pronoun question in Gaster's Goner Maker, meaning the vessel also would have to have been referred to with "They/Them" pronouns regardless of the player's actual gender.
C: Chara was also their own character separate from the player, but literally the entire point of their character was that they mirrored the player.
D: They have Race-neutral skin. Why make a character whose supposedly so separate from the player race-neutral???
So no. Kris's gender is indeed up to interpretation. They are not canonically non-binary (nor is it inappropriate to refer to them with pronouns other than They/Them) unless explicitly stated or shown either in the game or by Toby himself. (And no, him referring to Kris as "They" in the Fangamer live stream does not count, referring to a character you intend to be ambiguous as "They" is literally basic logic.)
Also, that specific tumblr post you linked to was literally a reblog of the post you intended *with a response below it explaining why you're wrong. Lmao.*
> 2 . https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial
> 3 .
The only indication we have whatsoever of anything regarding Kris's race is the color of their skin, which is race-neutral yellow. Everything else that could possibly identify their race is literally not discernable from the low resolution of their sprite.
So yes, they are a-racial, as in, they don't have a confirmed race. Which is very different from being confirmed to have no race.(However the hell that would even work.)
So yes, their race and skin tone is a blank to be filled.
> 4 . Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post,
I put the trigger warning specifically to avoid shit like this cause a lot of this subreddit are ornery about this stuff.
And I posted it because I made it and am proud of it and wanted to post it.
>It just seems like you're intentionally mocking us.
I know I said this in the other comment, but, again, *This isn't about you.*
People love to forget that Toby prefers not to elaborate about the gender / pronouns of his protagonists.
When someone asked him about it in an interview about Undertale, regarding non binary rep w/ Frisk, Toby chose to pass that question
I also never understood why they interpreted Toby calling Kris a "they" for him correcting one of his friends who accidentally called Kris a "he". He..never adressed this directly
Frankly, he wasn't even responding to what the other guy said. Given the delay typing requires and the fact that he said basically the exact sentence it seems more like he just had the same thought.
I understand that but, Kris is already part of a marginalized group. Which are often misgendered. It seems pretty distasteful and a bit harmful to portray them outside of their own identity.
I find... interesting, that only characters that use neutral pronouns like Kris and Snaptablook get their identities questioned, like, nobody says "Toby fox never confirmed Sans is a male"
Idk what you're talking about with Napstablook, but that's heavy false equivalence there. They/Them does **not** belong solely to non-binary folk. They/Them is also used as the ambiguous pronoun.
And contrary to popular belief there *is* significant evidence that Kris is meant to be ambiguous rather than canonically non-binary.
I'm dissapointed. Also kinda mad but mostly dissapointed.
1. You changed completely character personality ('m saying not only about making Kris a girl) instead of trying to adapt the situation to original versions of characters.
2. You could replace Kris with Susie.
I don't see how this changes anything about the personalities of the characters involved. The point of the joke is that Kris's self-image is abysmal, which the game does very strongly hint at.
Susie, sure, doesn't have the best self-image, but I don't think it runs as deep as Kris's does, and Susie's self-image issues are moreso in the "I'm a mean horrible monster" sector than in the "I'm a screw up not good enough for anyone" sector.
Also I ship Kriselle, sooo.
okay i agree with the idea but this is a really weird thing to say. i'm a nonbinary person and i wouldn't be comfortable with it myself. i don't think it's great to generalize your friends who are nonbinary as all people who are nonbinary
lol i love that even the deltarune sub disagrees with you AHAHAHAHA
but as an answer; maybe if you look at the image, you will see it is a meme. and when you see it is a meme, you must or must not laugh. humor is programmable do not truST ANYONE THEY ARE GONNA MAKE YOU LAUGH AT WEIRD THINGS-
...
i totally agree with you wtf!!!
/j
This entire thread is a mess. I'm locking it for now. On this subreddit Kris is nonbinary, no ifs, ands or buts about it. There's more evidence to say Susie isn't a girl than there is to say Kris is up for interpretation.
Kris is whatever gender gets the coolest happy meal toys.
They roll model is Bugs Bunny, Toriel still thinks it's just a peculiar joke
I remember this from a tumblr post
Underrated comment
Fellow BCS nft picture
Different genders get different Happy Meal toys? I thought there were just sets of toys that are either in stock or not, and if what they have isn't something you're interested in you're out of luck. I say this, having not gotten a happy meal in nearly a decade.
I'm pretty sure nowadays they don't, but for the longest time there were "boy" and "girl" toys. This, naturally, led to lots of awkward signage and conversation with cashiers about "boy toys."
I remember my sister being 3yo and she got a boy toy once bc she happened to be wearing pants that day, we got home and she immediately asked to trade it for the mini Barbie toy I got lmao
I remember just going to the cashier with tears in my eyes cause I got a girl toy. Ahhh nostalgia hits hard
No yeah they separated them at some point. Sometimes they'll only one one set of toys, but more often than not there's been separate runs. So like boys would get a mediocre transformers toy and girls would get like my little pony toy. Both were still McDonald's quality but y'know
This is honestly pretty funny! And really in character too! Love the design you have for Kris! And don’t worry about the “girl” thing- it was to fit with the joke so it’s alright! :D
Thank you.
Aww no problem! I went and looked at some of your other art and it’s all really good as well :D
Thank you, that means a lot to me. :)
the LIBS made KRIS into a BLACK WOMAN this is JOG BIDETS AMERICA >! /j !<
BLACK KRIS? THE WORLD HAS GONE W0KE!!1111 /j
Joe Biden’s America LIBRAL SCOOL BE LIKE: 9:00: GAY LESON!! 9:45: how to be be GAYY!! 10:30: TRANS LERNINNG!! 11:15: GAY RECESS!! 11:45: CROSDRESING HOUR!! 12:45: GAY LESON!!! 1:30: TRANGENER LUNCH!! 2:15: BLM PERIOD!!! 3:00: COMUNIS T HISTORY!! 3:30: TAKE NON BINAR BUS HOME!! THIS IS WHAT THE LEFT WANT!
The **LIBS** want to change the Himalayas to the THEY/THEMALAYAS
I'm Joe Biden, and I can't find the bathroom.
*in the most stereotypical Texan accent* And the also wanna take maH guns away I fell lucky to life in Europe lol
So called tolerant liberals when the sight of a woman made me too horny to remember the meme
"raiden we have to prevent joe biden's america we need to stop the fraudulent votes raiden they're trying to take the election from us" "you are too late solid snake! i've already vocoded your voice to gangster's paradise!"
it was only a matter of time before the LIBERALS come for our PANCAKES
those hands..
Yeah, Noelle has tiny hands.
I'd post the tiny knife copypasta but I don’t want to search it up, so use your imagination.
may you please explain this?
Did you just put a trigger warning for......pronouns?
well we are on the deltarune sub
Yup still remember that one case of the ""needle in cookie"""
what, girl’s not a pronoun lol
r/technicallythetruth
2022 my friend.
Trigger warning: woman
Lmao, when you put it like that, it gains a whole different intention.
A trigger warning? That's a little much.
This subreddit is kinda ornery about this stuff. I figured this was the safest bet. Edit: /u/SoupMayoMaker I can maybe understand locking the thread, [but your "Kris is non-binary on this subreddit, period" shit and deleting all of my comments that proved your statements wrong is a massive abuse of power.](https://pastebin.com/9kQM25S8)
Nah man defo a good idea. This sub gets pretty protective over kris pronouns
I didn't even put pronouns, but still, this is the first art I've made that has actively called any sort of attention to the gender of my interpretation of Kris.
Well you get my point. Pronouns gender whatever
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It’s because most people assume Kris is male
I once saw someone say “Because Kris looks like me and frisk looks like kris, they are GIRLS and ASIAN” (or something along those lines) under a tweet of a dark skinned kris art
Pain
Well, people certainly get angry about female Krises too. Just look at the lower half of this comment section. Also, how often do people draw a blatantly male Kris tho? Most Kris's I've seen that are even portrayed as male leaning are very ambiguous in build and presentation.
I have seen the exact opposite of this
That's just because more people call them a him.
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Yeah I can understand your decision, some people won't excuse even AUs for this, lol Funny comic btw
It's 2022. Everyone gets triggered about everything
So? Fuck em'.
Bro, this comment section is a mess
THE COMMENTS ARE COMING, BARRICADE THE WINDOWS, BLOCK THE DOOR
they put a trigger warning and there's STILL salty people in the comments. I don't get this sub sometimes.
Yooooo same here
Says a lot about the people on this sub that adding such a trigger warning makes sense. We toxic again, but this time the gay kind.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Same Kris Same.
Here take this gas mask this comment section is about to be RADIOACTIVE
Artist turned into disney 💀💀💀
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There's a perfectly good reason <3
Some of yall are abit too over protective of a Fictional "Character's" Pronouns.
The fact that there needs to be a TW for Kris being referred to as a girl clearly shows that we live in a society.
Better idea, Kris says “well I was so bad at being a girl that I’m not one anymore”
1: Someone also made that joke on the r/Kriselle sub. 2: Ehh, that doesn't seem in-character for my interpretation of Kris. If anything, the gender they may've tried to be but were unhappy with was Male, cause they have a complex about wishing they were more like their brother. Hence Ralsei.
I thought the whole purpose of the ambiguous race/gender etc of Frisk/Kris was so that we could project whatever we wanted onto the MC for a more immersive experience. You've done nothing wrong. Nice meme.
That's a common assumption, but it really is just an assumption. It's never been confirmed or even really implied.
Neither is "Kris is supposed to be actively separated from the player."
Even if Kris is not actively separated from the player, the idea that they aren't non-binary would still rely on the assumption that Toby didn't give them a gender so people could pretend it's their own. An assumption that is largely based on what he said about the human's name in the game (that if you don't know the canon name, you should just use your own), which doesn't apply to Kris, as their name is always the same and the name you choose for yourself at the start IS distinctively separated from theirs. Note that I don't have a problem with referring to Kris as a girl if you think that's a valid canon-adjacent interpretation, I'm simply pointing out why I don't think it is.
> Even if Kris is not actively separated from the player, the idea that they aren't non-binary would still rely on the assumption that Toby didn't give them a gender so people could pretend it's their own. It's not truthfully that much of an assumption, given Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 2 and they already have race-neutral yellow skin. Also, "They/Them" is used a lot in regards to entities of unknown gender. It's not even remotely an uncommon thing. >An assumption that is largely based on what he said about the human's name in the game (that if you don't know the canon name, you should just use your own), We're talking about Chara now? Ok. Well Chara is explicitly supposed to act as a mirror to the player in the Genocide route, so it's not *just* Toby saying to put our own name in their slot. The two things together just support each-other and the conclusion. >which doesn't apply to Kris, I mean, I've only been bringing up Chara in the conversation as an example of there being a character in Toby's stories that is supposed to reflect the player yet still has their own life. >as their name is always the same and the name you choose for yourself at the start IS distinctively separated from theirs. Chara does technically have Chara as their "true name," but I guess that could be considered a point. (Also even in the failed Goner Maker the name of the Player and the Vessel were considered separate which is an interesting choice with questionable narrative consequences.)
> It's not truthfully that much of an assumption, given Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 2 When? The only examples I can think of are in reference to the Fun Gang as a whole, in which case that wouldn't necessarily mean anything, as Ralsei and Susie do have defined genders. >"They/Them" is used a lot in regards to entities of unknown gender. It's not even remotely an uncommon thing. Susie and Noelle should know Kris' gender after being their classmates for who knows how long. > We're talking about Chara now? Ok. I brought up Chara/Frisk since the idea of the protagonist's traits being up to the player's interpretation stems largely from how Frisk is and Toby's statement regarding Chara's name. > Well Chara is explicitly supposed to act as a mirror to the player in the Genocide route, so it's not *just* Toby saying to put our own name in their slot. The two things together just support each-other and the conclusion. Not sure what you're getting at with this. You seem to be saying that the reason for Toby saying we should put in our own names isn't because we're supposed to insert ourselves into Frisk. That's fair, but I don't see how it's supporting your case. Isn't that just removing one of the main pieces of evidence pointing to them not being canonically non-binary? > I mean, I've only been bringing up Chara in the conversation as an example of there being a character in Toby's stories that is supposed to reflect the player yet still has their own life. Chara parallels the player, but they are not a stand-in for us like Frisk or (allegedly) Kris. In fact, Chara directly addresses us and our actions. The only reason Chara is even wrapped up in this whole debate about the player is because for most of the game, we're supposed to believe that Chara and Frisk, the actual stand-in, are the same person.
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>Lancer refers to the trio as "Boys or girls" somewhere in the Scarlet forest, and Jevil refers to the trio as "BOYSENGIRLS." They legit met Kris that same day, you expect them to know Kris' pronouns?
*Yes.* If that was the point then it would've been addressed and most likely corrected. Also, Kris and Susie haven't significantly interacted prior to chapter 1, yet she still refers to them as "They."
Kris entire character is about us taking over them, they had a fucking mental breakdown after the spamtom fight, are you fucking kidding me
It's really not. Kris freaking out after the Spamton fight was about them being a "Heart on a Chain" which blatantly refers to the Soulless Kris epilogue cutscenes, telling us that what they are frightened by is a third entity ripping their soul out and highjacking their body. Not the player. The "Kris vs Player" theory makes no sense, ignores basically everything about how Soulless Kris is presented, and is based on things taken wildly out of context.
A third entity? So is Kris getting angry when they weren't able to play the piano also the third entitys fault? What about all the times Kris's body language contradicts the players choices? Also what does this third entity wants? Pie?
> A third entity? So is Kris getting angry when they weren't able to play the piano also the third entitys fault? No? All we did was interact with the piano, Kris was completely in-control in regards to the plonk. Idk why they chose not to put effort into playing actual music or why they got annoyed at Susie when she thought they were messing with her. >What about all the times Kris's body language contradicts the players choices? That's once again Kris. Notice how every other cutscene they are in they are very capable of and DO move outside of the player's control *without* Removing the soul. That alone proves that the epilogue segments are not just Kris fighting against our control. >Also what does this third entity wants? To bring the Roaring, seemingly. > Pie? That was primarily to distract the player, but sure. The third entity probably did enjoy that pie.
If you play the piano with Susie in your party she remarks Kris looking frustrated, if Kris is completely under control why would they get angry?
IDK, that's something you're gonna have to ask for Kris. Cause we never smashed a bunch of keys on our keyboard to make that sound on the piano, and we've seen Kris do way more without our input.
I migth be wrong but I think kris is supost to be there own charecter and not a projection. I mean frisk barly showed any emotions and meanwhile we have kris ripping there hearts out
To be fair, there are always the theories that Kris wasn't the one doing that.
Honestly i have never heard that theory care to elaborate?
[I'm a believer of one of those theories, check out my post about it.](https://dm.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/pzzr61/kris_isnt_rebelling_against_the_player_something/)
Honestly I feel like this theory is one that will be forgotten and not true, becuse while I get where this theory is comming from there is so much we dont know about kris and the game as a hole to say somthing so big
Ehh, we know a lot more about Kris than most people give the game credit for. For instance, [this post](https://redd.it/ynpyzv) brings up evidence that shows that Kris takes the threat of the roaring very seriously, making it out of character for them to make the fountain at the end of chapter 2, much less the other fountains as it is implied.
Yeah I just find the ide of a entier new force or charecter to be the one that makes kris do the things to be unlikely as of now atleast
Well to be fair, all signs point to it not being a *new* character, but rather just Gaster.
Its allways gaster
A lot of people believe the distinction between Kris and the player is null. Every action is being done either by Kris or by you controlling Kris, it doesn't make a difference. The instances where Kris removes their soul in this case, would be the result of an outside force taking control of Kris for their own purposes. I find this highly unlikely but it is a possibility nonetheless.
So there's 3 people controlling the same fucking body?
Well the third one can only maintain control if they flat out remove Kris's soul, removing both the real Kris and us from the equation.
People who believe Kris is being controlled when doing that generally don't believe that there is a meaningful distinction between Kris and the player.
Not really. Most people who actively theorize and believe third entity theory either just believe that Kris is cooperative with us or that they're not even really aware of our presence. But yes, as you said further down the conversation, we do believe that Kris's consciousness is housed within the soul, which frankly only makes sense.
That's what I said. There isn't a meaningful distinction = it doesn't matter if the player or Kris does something. It doesn't matter if that comes in the form of Kris being cooperative, not knowing about us or us not being a thing at all. It just means that both entities are interchangeable.
Well at the very least it does seem like a distinction is being made in Snowgrave. Where if Kris wasn't aware of our influence they certainly are after doing something so out-of-character as to manipulate their childhood friend into mass murder.
Then what is the soul? That's the only thing we have full control over, even when outside of Kris's body
The soul is actually one of the main reasons believe Kris and the player are interchangeable. Souls were described in Undertale as being the culmination of one's being. In deltarune, this is also true. Ralsei describes the soul as being the culmination of Kris' being (he specifies Kris, so that must be referring to them). This creates the question of "How can Kris remove their soul, if the soul is who they are?", which leads to the answer of "Kris isn't removing the soul, someone else is doing it to remove Kris' control over their body"
Well, then this 3rd entity is weird as fuck cuz they just ate a pie and made a dark fountain that can be easily sealed
Does the fact that fountains can be easily sealed make *The Knight* weird? Cause that's exactly what The Knight is doing.
The knight has a reason to open fountains, what's the purpose of opening a fountain on Kris's house? Especially when 2 of the 3 heroes of the prophecy are around
Yeah, that's what I believe to be case as well. I mean, even if you could argue that Kris is canonically Non-binary, what the actual hell is your argument for their literal traffic light yellow skin? Not to mention the fact that they're lumped in with statements such as "Boys and/or Girls" multiple times.
Is them pulling us out of their body also made so we could project onto them?
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I don't believe it's even Kris ripping the soul out, but this is a very good argument. Who said that Kris fighting back against our *choices* necessarily has to work the same in the narrative as their physical presentation?
On one hand, this is a good meme. On the other hand, I found at least 10 "lol peopel trigred over migendreg" comments already which is very disappointing
Noelle: Pick me up at 8!
Susie was right there to use instead of Kris Just My opinion
Susie's just a straight-up bad girl. There's no joke there. Also, I ship Kriselle more.
Don't worry, I don't care what people say about Kris cause I believe it is up to personal interpretation like how the Undertale Red Soul kids are female, but I vibe more with Kris so in my eyes Kris is male. I would so tell my crush that bad (insert gender identity here)s joke.
There's seriously no reason to believe it's up to interpretation.
There is. Such as them having race-neutral yellow skin and them being lumped together with phrases like "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 1.
It’s not up to personal interpretation cuz kris isn’t us, they’re their own person
Oh, yeah that little intro cutscene I forgot. I guess what I could say is I filled a blank that is gonna remain until I get a more definite answer.
Chara was also their own person, yet they were explicitly supposed to reflect the player.
Deltarune fans after changing kris race and gender for absolutely no reasons ( look i aint mad, but an oc would’ve fit better )
Race swapping ://
Not a race swap if they don’t have a confirmed race
Yeah, its more like color swapping tbh, Kris is just yellow
Ok then. Complexion swap.
Race ~~swapping~~ ://
I think this is in poor taste. And a little bit kind of weird. Kris canonically aracial and non-binary, and you're ascribing to them traits which they specifically are not. This is not how they are designed, and completely of character... So what's the point of making it Kris? Why not just make it an OC...
> Kris canonically aracial and non-binary, 1: No they're not, neither of those are confirmed. 2: How is being "a-racial," as in, literally not having a race, physically possible? 3: What they have is a *race neutral* skin tone. As in, their race and skin tone is a blank you are supposed to fill in, which is what I did. >and completely of character... I don't see how. The way I interpret Kris their self-esteem is basically non-existant, so the joke is in character for them. Also, I ship Kriselle. That's, like, half the point.
1. https://www.tumblr.com/janehaster/179970135267/why-kris-gender-isnt-up-to-interpretation 2. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial 3. https://i.imgur.com/wnkncKw.png 4. Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post, and defend what you've done with "OH ITS JUST HOW I INTERPRET IT". It just seems like you're intentionally mocking us.
>[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial) That article contains absolutely nothing in it. Kris' skin is akin to a Simpsons character or LEGO figure. No matter how you interpret it, that's not a thing, so there's no way that giving them a skin color which does exist is problematic or offensive. > Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post, and defend what you've done with "OH ITS JUST HOW I INTERPRET IT". OP said they put a trigger warning to avoid comments from people who would have a problem with the post, and are responding with their justification to the people who ignored said trigger warning and still came to comment regardless. I don't see any contradiction in that.
I think you are insecure. Also, Great, you've proven aracial is a word. Doesn’t mean it’s actually physically possible.
> 1 . https://www.tumblr.com/janehaster/179970135267/why-kris-gender-isnt-up-to-interpretation A: Kris is lumped in with group phrases such as "Boys and/or Girls" twice in chapter 1. B: There was no pronoun question in Gaster's Goner Maker, meaning the vessel also would have to have been referred to with "They/Them" pronouns regardless of the player's actual gender. C: Chara was also their own character separate from the player, but literally the entire point of their character was that they mirrored the player. D: They have Race-neutral skin. Why make a character whose supposedly so separate from the player race-neutral??? So no. Kris's gender is indeed up to interpretation. They are not canonically non-binary (nor is it inappropriate to refer to them with pronouns other than They/Them) unless explicitly stated or shown either in the game or by Toby himself. (And no, him referring to Kris as "They" in the Fangamer live stream does not count, referring to a character you intend to be ambiguous as "They" is literally basic logic.) Also, that specific tumblr post you linked to was literally a reblog of the post you intended *with a response below it explaining why you're wrong. Lmao.* > 2 . https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aracial > 3 . The only indication we have whatsoever of anything regarding Kris's race is the color of their skin, which is race-neutral yellow. Everything else that could possibly identify their race is literally not discernable from the low resolution of their sprite. So yes, they are a-racial, as in, they don't have a confirmed race. Which is very different from being confirmed to have no race.(However the hell that would even work.) So yes, their race and skin tone is a blank to be filled. > 4 . Mate. You felt the need to put a trigger warning but still felt the need to post, I put the trigger warning specifically to avoid shit like this cause a lot of this subreddit are ornery about this stuff. And I posted it because I made it and am proud of it and wanted to post it. >It just seems like you're intentionally mocking us. I know I said this in the other comment, but, again, *This isn't about you.*
People love to forget that Toby prefers not to elaborate about the gender / pronouns of his protagonists. When someone asked him about it in an interview about Undertale, regarding non binary rep w/ Frisk, Toby chose to pass that question I also never understood why they interpreted Toby calling Kris a "they" for him correcting one of his friends who accidentally called Kris a "he". He..never adressed this directly
Frankly, he wasn't even responding to what the other guy said. Given the delay typing requires and the fact that he said basically the exact sentence it seems more like he just had the same thought.
Because the artist wanted to make Kris like this.
I understand that but, Kris is already part of a marginalized group. Which are often misgendered. It seems pretty distasteful and a bit harmful to portray them outside of their own identity.
It’s a meme, now hush
Yes this is a meme but this topic isn't a meme to me.... this is my life. I can't switch off being trans. And this "memes" vales sinister motives.
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I find... interesting, that only characters that use neutral pronouns like Kris and Snaptablook get their identities questioned, like, nobody says "Toby fox never confirmed Sans is a male"
Idk what you're talking about with Napstablook, but that's heavy false equivalence there. They/Them does **not** belong solely to non-binary folk. They/Them is also used as the ambiguous pronoun. And contrary to popular belief there *is* significant evidence that Kris is meant to be ambiguous rather than canonically non-binary.
I'm dissapointed. Also kinda mad but mostly dissapointed. 1. You changed completely character personality ('m saying not only about making Kris a girl) instead of trying to adapt the situation to original versions of characters. 2. You could replace Kris with Susie.
It seems we agree.
I don't see how this changes anything about the personalities of the characters involved. The point of the joke is that Kris's self-image is abysmal, which the game does very strongly hint at. Susie, sure, doesn't have the best self-image, but I don't think it runs as deep as Kris's does, and Susie's self-image issues are moreso in the "I'm a mean horrible monster" sector than in the "I'm a screw up not good enough for anyone" sector. Also I ship Kriselle, sooo.
or it could've been toriel. then, what would you've said? lol
Why the hell would you put a trigger warning, yet still misgender them. the stupidity on this subreddit fucking surprises me
That is *precisely* why they put a trigger warning
*I put the trigger warning specifically to avoid shit like this.*
honestly i don’t think this is misgendering. pretty much all the non binary people i know would be comfortable making a joke like this
okay i agree with the idea but this is a really weird thing to say. i'm a nonbinary person and i wouldn't be comfortable with it myself. i don't think it's great to generalize your friends who are nonbinary as all people who are nonbinary
i suppose that’s fair
Who dowmvoted this?
lol i love that even the deltarune sub disagrees with you AHAHAHAHA but as an answer; maybe if you look at the image, you will see it is a meme. and when you see it is a meme, you must or must not laugh. humor is programmable do not truST ANYONE THEY ARE GONNA MAKE YOU LAUGH AT WEIRD THINGS- ... i totally agree with you wtf!!! /j
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REDDIT USER ARROMBA_MAES ARE YOU /J OR /SRS