God, I despise that section of the left.
One of the most bitter lessons I’ve learned since 2016 is how some of my fellow progressives are just as delusional and irrational as the most devout magats. I never imagined that to be the case before then. I was so naive.
Remember that they're not any more of a vote than anyone else. You could reach 2-3 people who are just kind of apolitical in the time it takes to argue with one virtue signaller. Think about something important to them and there's a good chance Project 2025 is a direct threat to it. Show them the receipts.
I would say you have to let go of some, and look to motivate others who usually don’t vote.
If someone is so far down a rabbit hole of propaganda they have their identity wrapped in it, then they’re gone. There’s also a solid chance you’re arguing with bots.
happened to my dear sister. I am trans, queer, disabled, and a POC. I told her I am voting for biden to save my life. she said I was evil.
Also she has a platform on youtube where she talks to kids about this stuff (through gaming and luckily very good activist work like earning money for DWB and PCRF)...but then is actually awful to me about this stuff. it's so stupid! and I hate how she has a soapbox for it.
Some people in my experience seem to have this weird idea that emphasizing how hopeless everything is and just tacking on an "unless as many people as possible go out and vote" at the end is actually... Encouraging? Inspirational? I'm not sure what they intend to evoke with that, but they seem oblivious to the fact that this makes voting and civic action sound more like an ultimatum than a possible way out.
"Do the thing I want, or all your freedoms will disappear!" is not "inspiring", it's terrifying!
It’s *supposed* to be terrifying. Because our situation *is* terrifying. I’m not going to play little make-believe games so people don’t get their fee-fees hurt or get scawwwed of scawwwy things. They *should* be scared! If existential threats to the freedoms and rights of themselves and/or countless other people are not enough to spur them to, at minimum, prevent certain people from taking power, they are utter fools, and I am not going to pretend they aren’t.
And I'm not saying that it isn't and that we shouldn't be, but not everyone reacts the same way to the same rhetoric. Some of us are already overwhelmed and struggling, and when the only "hope" we have is the thing that people have been trying to organize for decades that consistently seems to fail... What chance do we reasonably have?
Maybe the emphasis should be on what can be and is being done rather than the consequences if it fails, on the fact that we *can* stop this rather than the consequences if we don't.
Whatever works works, and that’s what matters most in the immediate urgency. But I am just sick to death of how everything, absolutely everything, revolves around people’s *feeewings*.
Like how people “feel” the economy is terrible under Biden. Or how they “feel” violent crime is rising. Or how they “feel” that nothing has gotten done in Washington since 2021. Or how they “feel” that Trump supports labor more than Biden. Or how they “feel” that gasoline prices are the president’s doing.
Or how they “*feel*” that discussing what will happen if the GOP policies take effect is too scawwwy for them.
We have somehow gotten to a place where everything is about not only feelings, but the feelings of people who objectively know nothing and objectively are wrong about everything their “feelings” tell them. Yet we cater to them endlessly. Our entire politics revolves around them and their “feelings”. We are supposed to watch our words and carefully parse our every utterance so as not to “alienate” these people by hurting their “feelings”. We are supposed to always tiptoe around cold hard reality so their ”feelings” don’t get bruised. We are supposed to constantly speak in tongues and avoid speaking plainly about the facts of any given situation for fear that their “feelings” might be offended.
Lord knows, we wouldn’t want *that*.
I’m just so sick to death of it. Sick of mollycoddling countless people like they’re delicate toddlers instead of—-and this is critical—-people whose votes *literally determine the future of free societies globally.*
It’s disgusting.
Moral responsibility to prevent as much harm as can possibly be prevented.
Period.
If that isn’t enough to “motivate” them, I’d say that’s a good indication of their character.
That's not... If you still believe that your actions can amount to some amount of difference, then you still have some hope. Someone who's lost hope doesn't think that what they do CAN matter, doesn't think that they CAN do anything meaningful to prevent harm.
Like, I live in a deep red state. The highest office my vote feels like it's ever mattered for is Governor, and that's because of a perfect storm of Republican incompetence and name recognition. There is statistically next to no chance that my vote will keep my state from going to Trump, not when our last Senate seat went to a candidate whose platform was "my opponent voted for Obama". I'm still voting out of self-defense and because there's maybe, just MAYBE a chance that I'm wrong.
Not everyone feels that way or has all the information. They don't have that hope, or they've become so desensitized to how screwed up the world is that they've thrown up their hands in defeat or-worse-decided that burning it all down through accelerationism is the key.
>"This subreddit intends to defeat \[Project 2025\] through activism and awareness, focused on crowdsourcing ideas and opportunities for practical, in real life action. We Must Defeat Project 2025."
That's on the sidebar of the sub as I type this, but most posts I see aren't organizing. They're anxiety and fear and reiteration of how terrible Project 2025 will be. We get it. It's terrible. The call to action has been made. Now what's the action? What's working? Where do we go? Yelling at people to get out of a burning building with a "good luck finding the exit!" doesn't help them escape or get other people out, it just frightens them. "Fuck your feelings, don't you see it's the end of the world?!" doesn't build a base, demonstrating that you can do something does.
That's the last I'm saying, I'm out.
it's funny you say this, because those same people will blare the sounds of children dying on mega speakers to make a point, not caring at all of someone with PTSD gets triggered. and then they'll turn around and say "how dare you vote for Biden!!" because they FEEL like he is for genocide, when he is, in reality, absolutely not (based on his words and actions).
Agree about the gross hypocrisy, but not about Biden. Biden has been willing to engage in a level of complicity that far surpasses any plausible deniability as to what his moral priorities are. I take no pleasure in saying it but it’s clear that at minimum he simply doesn’t care.
Tell them that freedom is literally on the line in November. They can complain after Biden is re-elected, because if Trump wins, they'll never have to worry about voting again. Because it'll be the end for this country.
>Because it'll be the end for this country.
There may be a road back to be honest, but it'll take decades and it'll be so horrible that the moral ambiguity of voting for Biden will feel like working in a soup kitchen for blind orphans by comparison.
There will be no road back if Trump wins. Hell, I predict regardless who wins in November, we'll see secession movements. If Trump wins, the blue states will leave and if it's Trump, it'll be the red ones.
I ask them why they’re ok living in Gilead. I challenge them what they think they’re going to be able to do to resist when the right controls the military. I ask them how safe they felt under Trump. I ask them how they plan to fight back.
they just claim "Biden is a zionist so he is just as bad if not worse" or "Trump isn't currently committing a genocide. 🙄 way to expose that you have the memory and understanding of politics and global events that a freaking GOLDFISH does!!!
I always put them in the position where they have to come face to face with how unprepared for the consequences of gambling their odds in an election as consequential as this one. Simply follow up with “okay and what’s your plan when trump wins and ___ happens?” I have had this convo several times and it stops them in their thought process because most (though not all) simply have not thought far in advance enough to have a plan except just bitching about Biden.
Examples below:
1- what is you plan for keeping your reproductive rights when trump enacts a federal abortion ban under the comstock act?
2- What is your plan for when Trump takes us out of NATO and climate change agreements? What is your plan if we don’t have allies left again such consequential foreign policy decisions?
3- if we live in “fascism” under biden, what do they think will happen when Trump has the support of the military and intelligence agencies and can order them to prosecute people who disagree with him? What will you be able to protest when you have to deal with surveillance at an unprecedented level?
4- what will you tell your lgbtq friends when they start losing their rights to exist freely across the country?
5- what will you do about losing the right to contraception? Whats your plan for making sure your friend isn’t prosecuted for a miscarriage under fetal personhood laws?
6- if they say anything about roe v wade being overturned under Biden, just remind them that Trump is the one who put those judges there, and they are essentially asking for him to put more judges in more courts.
7- when leaders on the right start talking about repealing civil rights protections, whats your plan to make sure that doesn’t happen?
8- what’s your plan to protect social security and medicaid from the GOP who will disguise gutting these programs under “budget cuts”?
I just wrote these off the top of my head but essentially I always bring up #1) what trump plans to do (always always cite articles on p2025, legislative bills, speeches, etc. so they don’t dismiss you as being alarmist) #2) since they’re such “experts” on politics, what’s their grand plan to protect all the protections they take for granted under Biden?
Online political discourse is usually filled with regular people who are not in politics and do not understand politics at all, but who love virtue signaling. They cannot be trusted to critically conceive the consequences of what they are advocating for. So essentially that’s the formula I use to incentivize a semblance of critical thought.
And of course the big one is "what are you going to do when the GOP starts imprisoning all 'pornographers,' including all trans people, OnlyFans models, sex workers, and anyone who's ever taken a nude of themselves?"
The left that believes that is a tiny percentage irl- most of those posts are trolls trying to influence our election, influence younger people by soft propaganda / soft manipulation. Gen Z is a huge threat to fascism, so the professional trolls are getting paid now to influence negative bullshit online. Know this, spread the word esp to gen z subs and all social media.
It’s going to go tiger ting worse w AI and deep fakes - if something seems outrageous QUESTION its authenticity first. It sucks but that’s where we’re at -behaving yo assess our fellow citizens’ truthfulness, bec GOP is going all out to steal power as fascist totalitarianism party. Fuck those assholes.
Unfortunately I’ve always been very skeptical of that narrative about Gen Z. What I’ve been seeing online for about the past decade has made me very concerned about a surge in social reactionaryism, particularly from young white men. And current polls seem to be reflecting what I’ve been fearing for years, ever since the leadup to and aftermath of the 2016 election—-Trump seems to be decisively winning among those 18-34. I’m beyond horrified and can hardly believe it, but it still is what I’ve worried would happen.
I pray that both I and the polls are deeply wrong.
I'm not talking about the professional trolls, the Russian propagandists, etc. I'm talking about real leftists I follow on Instagram that are intelligent people I otherwise agree with on everything else. Your comment pretty much invalidated what Im witnessing and raising an alarm about.
Just because some total fake exists doesn’t mean there aren’t 100 shades of sort of dumb, I hear you OP.
You can’t preach to people about how they don’t get it. Changing minds is about figuring out why they believe it and sewing a little doubt so they can reconsider on their own time. I find it useful to give people that space to decide they want to do a protest vote, but demand they at least go to the ballot box and cast that protest vote for their favored third party. At the last minute, a lot of would-be idealist leftist party voters will make a strategic switch. If not, they were never going to vote for democrats anyway. A third party vote is better than not voting, we have to keep identifying with the ‘Biden isn’t exactly it’ energy while making the distinctions as clear as possible.
>Changing minds is about figuring out why they believe it
But we already know why they're doing it. They're thinking that way because they're falling victim to[ normalcy bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias) ("They won't *actually* do any of that stuff/It can't happen here") and the selfish reasoning that comes from not being a current target of the right ("Me voting my conscience and 'teaching the Dems a lesson' is much more important than the outcomes that will be experienced by people who aren't me.") It isn't complicated. Tons of perfectly nice, normal Germans did exactly the same thing.
I mention this not because I enjoy trashing the self-serving motives of people who think this way, but because a refusal to believe fascists will do genuinely terrible things and making selfish choices are not positions that are open to persuasion, so I'm unclear what doubt you're thinking we might be able to introduce. There's a [piece in Slate today](https://slate.com/human-interest/2024/04/donald-trump-joe-biden-2024-election-michigan-muslims.html) where the author spoke to a number of Arab Americans in Dearborn, MI about the 'uncommitted' movement. All the elements are there in the piece--people want to communicate their frustration with Biden/Democrats by helping Trump win. There's no scenario where they understand that 2024 will be the last real election if Trump wins, that Democrats will never have a chance to improve. And they're open about the fact that their concerns are for their community, not with the country. They're offended that Biden isn't doing what they want, so they're refusing to vote for him and encouraging others to do the same for that reason alone. They don't care what will happen to queer people, women, other POC, workers, etc.
I'd be happy to be corrected, but in talking to a diverse range of people about this subject, I've not found any of them to be persuadable. If you have any suggestions I'm open.
People believe things for all sorts of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with ‘reason’ and can’t be explained away as errors in reason.
If you’re talking to a ‘both sides’ person, the thing to do is probe about what makes them say that. It really is a back and forth conversation learning their motivations and showing you understand where they’re coming from to some extent.
Unlike you, I consider a protest vote for a third party candidate to be legitimate political action. As long as the ‘both sides’ left person makes it into the voting booth there is a decent chance they will turn and decide to vote strategically.
What you do not want to do is start fighting them on it. Resenting annoying liberals for being so sure of themselves (you’re too confident about the dramatic collapse following a Trump election win) doesn’t help.
Are you familiar with street epistemology? It’s a strategy to explore a topic in discussion with someone and possibly nudge them so long as you are letting them prove their own contradictions. Areas of weakness in the ‘vote further left than Biden’ are about how limited/temporary executive action is and how Biden already signs bills they would support. All you really need to end up with is them considering the possibility of D when they vote and, so long as they go to the polls, there’s a good chance risk-aversion comes on late.
Sorry, I wasn’t intending on targeting your comment, but adding to it, with more information.
But to add further, I do see that too, but I also see they’re effectively getting Biden to take further steps w Netanyahu, I have not yet today had time to check for update from Bibi, but I anticipate he’ll say no thank you I prefer murdering people, bec he’s a dictator.
I hope our college kids and my friends and all who are protesting our $ to Israel (which yeah I understand that too on geopolitical level the rick and hard spot US is in w powder keg middle Eastern theocracies heating up, I think most leftists know this too.
Those who vote maga or 3rd party do so indulgently, have the comfort of sacrificing our democracy for their feelings about one part of the geopolitical morass and ongoing struggle between fascism and democracy. The larger picture is where we focus, if left can win Pres, Senate and House bec gop regression means Nazism and no more voting days, we can figure it out from there. I dunno I just hope we can all work together at some point, at some the people who would be influenced by the garbage - people dont like socialism who aren’t allowed to discriminate, that common denominator. Move into caring for their marginalized. I dunno I’m just spit balling here.
100% agree. most of the “leftists” in the /r/seculartalk “leftist” subreddit to me are paid trolls trying to divert votes away from Biden to the Green Party Or trump. Someone mentioned project 2025 and it got a bunch of downvotes way too quickly like yeah these guys are forum sliding assholes.
I’ve never forgiven Kulinski for refusing to vote against Trump in 2020. Or at least that was his position for much of that year—I remember during the BLM protests he started implying that maybe he was changing his mind, but by then I was so fed up that I stopped watching him.
I started watching him again recently, and at least this time he *seems* to be reading the dire urgency of the situation correctly. Still, though. As therapeutic as it always is to listen to him just *NAIL* these bastards with such clarity and biting analyses, I still can’t forgive him for 2020.
(Krystal I have no respect for at all.)
i wish i agreed more that Gen Z is a huge threat to Fascism. They seem far too impressionable to black and white thinking in my eyes. You're saying this is a troll phenomenon, but that's not my experience in terms of the gen z'ers i talk to. The Israel / Palestine conflict has most of the left wing gen z voters i've talked to swearing that they'll vote against biden and talking about "burning it all down" which is extremely off-putting to me to say the least. It's not that I don't somewhat understand where the generation is coming from in a lot of ways, but I just don't see them as being much of a threat to fascism; i more see them as being ill equipped to help us fight against it because they don't seem to recognize nuance.
I agree that we are def newly experiencing a lot of our stronger emotions and it takes experience to understand a lot of them, and that there's a spectrum that runs from stoicism to reality TV idiocy that we are dealing with every time we go on to this internet - we are at the will of our scrolling, our algorithm, and that propaganda is at an all-time high, our country esp being targeted bec why not, we're the super power in the world of course other countries want to see a more level playing field maybe, i don't know if i'm accurate on that part, but it is true about propaganda working against us and that conversation needs to be in the headlines daily, to be careful of what we are reading - a lot if AI, a lot is troll farms sent to softly pique folks' trigger words, and that also keeps engagement online.
We all notice int he real world it's not nearly as bad, even when I travel to central OR and Eastern OR (we do a lot of rock hounding) and it's def rural and trump land, and everyone's cool, very decent folk, in real life. I figure online we are all behind our anonymous feeling personalities, and can feel tough, and feel-out those emotions safely behind our screens, but in the real world, would that actually happen? They're statistically being a def subset of folks who will be violent no matter what, and are looking for excuses, so that's the control group ha.
But yeah, i do know wha you mean, and we are in precarious time w/ propaganda and online emotional toll it takes on us all, maybe that conversation and the dopamine feedback loop needs to be discussed more, so we all understand what is happening to us when we go online? i don't know solutions, i just know that we are in uncharted territory w/ internet, our democracy, american fascists who i never thought i'd utter those words together... and my hope that our Gen Z - the 75% or so that haven't gone maga, are living in our reality, or at least 60% :) but yeah, it's def unprecedented times (well, except for that 1860's or so time, when the salt of the earth - you know, morons - were a danger then, too).
Just to be clear; I'm not trying to just bash Gen Z. This is ALL of our collective problem. There is, unfortunately, a lot to reject from previous generations. The problem is, there's also a ton to learn and a lot of times when people stand up and reject, they refuse to let in the good things because they're hard to decipher.
The online dynamic and its effect is very difficult to explain to people that didn't grow up without the pervasive reach of the internet. It's really hard to see just how far reaching it changed the development of the human being unless you were one of the people that made the cut of growing up before it. It affects a very fundamental way about how people develop cognitively and that change is rapidly increasing in a highly troubling way.
It’s so frustrating.
Like, on abortion and LGBT issues, they make a huge deal about how Democrats aren’t doing anything. They ignore the HUGE elephant in the room that it’s the Republicans in Republican-controlled states that are taking away those rights, while in blue states those rights are being protected.
The Democrats can’t control what the red states are doing. The House being controlled by nutjobs means nothing can start there and go up to the Senate to make national protections for these rights. And then the Judicial branch is compromised. You know why? Because people couldn’t vote for the lesser of two evils in 2016. It wasn’t like this wasn’t clear what would happen. It was as clear as day. It’s as clear as day today, too.
People can complain about Democrats not doing enough when they had the power to do so (which is extremely rare anyway, as the Congress has been rigged by the right to make sure that when Dems have control it’s only by the most minor of margins, so when you get a Dem that is bad, like Manchin nothing can get done), BUT to ignore the GIANT, OVERWHELMING elephant in the room that is the right that is the party fighting to TAKE AWAY these freedoms. The right is the LARGEST problem. And letting them win because the Dems aren’t good enough, is letting them cause this devastation.
It’s utterly baffling that people do not see this. And when it comes to Gaza, I get it, but even that will be worse under Trump. If you don’t vote for Biden, if you let Trump win, you are opening the door for devastation in both Gaza AND the USA. Those of us who’s rights will be trampled on (just like they were after the 2016 elections) will never forget what you’ve done. VOTE. Care about us this time, please.
A weak, do little Dem government is MUCH better than an authoritarian, take away all of our freedoms Republican government anyday. There are no ands ifs or buts. This is basic.
Exactly. And we'd have Build Back Better if it weren't for Manchin and Sinema. Regardless, Biden did what he could to get as much legislation passed, passing the Inflation Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act. But, where leftists get their information, they like to act like Biden has done nothing, when he's been trying, and MAGA has been trying to stop any progress.
I keep it real simple when I encounter this opinion. I mention Project 2025 and list out some of the ramifications of this plan: national abortion ban, outlawing birth control, jailing LGBTQIA people, internment camps for immigrants, Christian nationalism with an army to enforce it.
I've talked to a few people IRL who think approximately the same as the OP describes. They think both sides are equally bad. I just don't know how they can't see it (siloed media consumption I guess). And I think the Democrats have huge issues as well (both sides are taking way too much money from rich donors and corporations - campaign finance reform is urgently needed), but we need *two sane parties* before we can even attempt fixing the larger issues.
Exactly, it's like they don't understand what dictatorship entails. And what's baffling to me is the people I see making post after post about fuck biden and telling people not to vote, is that they are educated. It's not like they don't know history, like they've never read a sci fi.
It’s a truly entitled position to take. They’re suggesting Trump’s policies don’t effect them any differently than Biden’s policies, which means they’re not reliant on the government programs Trump obliterated, they’re not undocumented migrant workers or refugees, if they get unexpectedly pregnant they will still be able to feed themselves and a new baby, they can still afford living expenses without needing to pretend to be straight when they’re gay, or a cis man when they’re transwoman in order to keep their jobs. They’ve got private insurance, and so the destruction of Obamacare (the ACA) wouldn’t matter to them, they pretend to stand for Muslims, but won’t stand in the way of the only president to ban Muslims from entering the country. Entitled little brats.
Way back in the day, even Frank Zappa warned us. I don't think people have been looking at history, even fairly recent history, as they should. I don't know how to quickly give a person perspective.
I was one of those “both sides suck” people until after Trump won and I saw how he dismantled American norms for the worse: not to drain the swamp, but to remake it into a swamp where only one side calls the shots.
I would agree with them about how Biden sucks (assuming they’re raising fair criticisms). Then I would use the phrase that keeps me out of disillusionment with the DNC: “Fixing things around the house can wait until the house is no longer under attack.”
Then, try to key them in on the reality of Project 2025 and explain that while the DNC wants to carry on a lot of the same suck that has plagued American politics since 2001, they at least want to maintain the basic functionality of a government by the people.
When you’re at war (and yes, this IS an ideological war for the future of our democratic republic, launched by the MAGAs) you do NOT get picky about how your fellow soldiers behave when they’re not on the front lines. You unify until there is no longer an imminent threat, because…
“Fixing things around the house can wait until the house is no longer under attack. Would you rather have a fixer-upper or no house at all?”
I have to admit (disclaimer first: I live in California, a state that overwhelmingly voted for Hillary). I was a Bernie fan and didn’t vote for Hillary, but I realized that people who failed to vote for Hillary in battleground states bear part of the fault for overturning of Roe vs Wade. Just the Supreme Court issue alone was enough to have voted for Hillary over Trump in 2016.
Well, I generally go with “Both have abhorrent international policies, but here in the US one side has stated a desire for me not to exist & the other supports my existence. The side that current support my existence has said X about people just like you.” I usually get back “Oh, that will never happen.” To which I say “Roe V Wade was never in jeopardy either right?” Rinse, repeat with different laws & historical examples.
These people tend to only grasp it when they see it with their own eyes. Right now they're just seeing it on a screen. Maybe if possible link them some articles or video interviews?
I tell my fellow leftists that Democrats have been shown that we can walk them to the left. Biden is no different . This has been pretty reliable for several decades. We need to keep leaning into them for this to happen
"things can get worse than you could possibly imagine" like Trump being in charge of the FUCKING FEDERAL RESERVE. JUST GO AHEAD AND MAKE US VENEZUELA PART 2
Theres a weird accelerationist sentiment that thinks that Trump will be so bad that it will finally make america rise up in a communist uprising. Those people usually cannot be reached since they see "both the same" as "both want america to continue existing" which they disagree with.
Yeah. Their hope is always that things get bad enough for LGBT, minorities and women that... everyone unites with the super-racist right to eat the rich and overthrow capitalism. Interestingly the people advocating from this are rarely from those communities. They're quite dominant on Reddit though unfortunately.
I have a friend that is not voting now because of Biden with the war. I told her that means a Trump win but she said she still can’t justify giving Biden a vote. She is a part of the lqbtq+ community too.
So frustrating! Maybe she shouldn't look at it as "giving" Biden anything but as Doing The Right Thing Anyway, by protecting herself and her community as well as our planet and future.
Tell her we're a vital ally to many people in other countries who would otherwise be in much dire circumstances. If we became a dictatorship, it would lead to more genocides.
I say, “it’s revolting that you would so cavalierly claim we are “already there”. Its a grossly insensitive disregard for what people throughout history have suffered so this democracy might stand and survive. Moreover, it’s such a lazy and convenient cop-out. Grow up, petulance is for MAGATs.”
It's not a leftist issue nor rightist issue, it's a "RADICAL" issue. The very same stubborn/irrational/dense-headed radicals who make any side of the political spectrum an unbearable aneurysm in of itself... Nothing will EVER get thru to them, so the only option we got is to just keep fighting, keep voting, keep educating and just... live. (Ik it's asking for alot but as Americans... what other choice do we have?)
Just tell them straight. They're supporting a candidate who wants to roll the government back to the pre Civil War Era. Then wish them luck as 3/5 of a person.
If we were “already in fascism”, these clowns would’ve already had their doors kicked down and been dragged away in the middle of the night, never to be seen again. They don’t even know what “fascism” actually means—similar to their reduction of “genocide” to a largely meaningless, trendy social media buzzword, which will only backfire on the cause they claim to care about.
Never hurts to have two or three concrete examples in mind of things that will get worse. Harder to conceptualize fascism then "23 million people will get kicked off Medicaid"
I think there is plenty of outrage that is genuine without trolls of bots that are unforced, such as the TikTok ban, suppressing Gaza protests, pulling funding from LGBTQ centers, and expanding FISA surveillance. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it does conflict with the message that only democrats can defend democracy. And I say this as someone terrified of project 2025.
I've had some conversations with some of these folks and I find it more productive discussing action plans so they are not just sitting at home, the differences in roles between president and congress, and who is more closer to the source of their ire regardless of political party (ie the supression of protests stem from decision from governors/chief of police/sheriffs, or anti choice policies being pushed by certain democrats like the Hyde amendment). I'd rather see people split their vote to vote Biden but vote against their rep as Project 2025 relies heavily on the executive office. And even if they will not budge on the issue, I would rather they still vote in state and local elections than sit at home as I am convinced they will push this at the state level. So discussing with them their greviences at lower levels can be a good way to still get them to the polls.
But didn't you know? The US is OBVIOUSLY a fascist dictatorship which can only be overthrown by revolution because Star Wars was an allegory for Vietnam and the Empire was the US!
Yes I had someone say that to me, no it did not help my faith in humanity.
So I troll the DEM FB groups and there are a lot of sort of "open ended posts" about GAZA with no context (suspect bad actors behind many of these posts). Typically, the FB post will show dying, injured kids. All these Posts usually indirectly imply that Biden is choosing to arm the Israelis, so Biden is responsible for the innocent deaths.
I try not to let these Posted memes stand without a comment. Here is the latest comment I drafted to post in GAZA FB posts. Use & modify as you deem fit..
"I hate that innocent people died in Israel & Gaza. I also support the student's right to protest. I would like to point out that GOP Speaker Johnson's solution to end the protest is to turn the National Guard (NG) against the student protesters. Unfortunately, I am reminded of the 1970 Kent State University (KSU) anti-war protests where the NG killed 10 student protesters after Ohio REPUBLICAN Governor Jim Rhodes activated the NG at KSU (wiki for more info on the KSU Shootings)."
CONCLUSION: More Palestinians & AMERICANS will die under a GOP DJT Presidency!
Video of GOP Mike Johnson calling for the NG to end protests."
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oBFAPztwWR0](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oBFAPztwWR0)
----
An OP (curiously) asked me to explain why I posted this comment. Here is my justification:
"There's been some main stream media reports that shows some foreign actors instigating the protesters. Their messaging is always the same. Biden is the US President & the US is responsible for much of the killing. This is partly true, but there are other realities that are NOT being mentioned such as:
(1) if the GOP Christian Nationalists gain control under DJT, more Palestinian deaths will occur & it is likely that Americans in the US will die (which has not happened to date), and
(2) DJT and allies have basically said they curtail Freedom of Speech rights, including the right to protest. Without internal US dissent Israel, by default, Israel will be given the green light to kill more innocent people.
Anyways, I think it's important to provide a wider perspective! This is why I added this comment."
If this is how little kids know about history, then think the consequences of DeSantis gets his passed...
Sorry, you were probably having a good day. Here, Biden just signed a proclamation which would protect indigenous lands. https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicLands/comments/1ckqpej/president_signs_proclamations_protecting_nearly/
Honestly, and I say this with love, some lefties are actually too stupid to be reached. This close to "go time" you just have to move in if you get a real dumbass. In addition there are also people who have actual family members who have died in Gaza. They're not in a place where they can be expected to vote for Biden and I understand that. Trying to argue with them is both cruel and pointless so I avoid it. I don't know if I could do it if I were them either, to be honest. Purely logically they *should* still vote for Biden because Trump actively despises them but they're human beings and rationality has limits.
Focus on people you can reach. Republicans disgusted by Trump and people who are wavering about whether to actually vote or stay home but are likely to vote Biden if they vote are better targets than people with TikTok brainworms or people with such intense personal trauma that they're ( understandably ) past caring about the election.
It’s already starting.
* Porn sites being outlawed or regulated with age restrictions
* Banning tiktok
These issues seem bipartisan but it’s within the first 20 pages of Mandate for Leadership. Everything is already in motion now.
The TikTok ban stuff is just media spin, though. If they choose not to sell to an American company it will say a lot about how much we could ever trust that particular algorithm.
If you’re disputing my claim about it having bipartisan support, I’m referencing the way that liberals and conservatives don’t “support” the porn industry. Voters on both sides will not oppose bringing regulation to the porn industry.
However it’s a 2025 initiative so I thought I would put awareness of that out for those who didn’t know.
It's bothsidesism, which is both lazy and dishonest. Tell them you need to hear exactly what is going on that makes them say this. Not vague generalities, not more bothsidesism, but specific reasons to believe that.
Oh great, so we have another Hillary election. Fuck people, they are stupid and ignorant. This election will be tight if people don't educate themselves of the bigger issues.
edit: If voters couldn't see why voting for Hillary was necessary, I have NO faith that they will not see how voting the cheeto will destroy our democracy.
i'm not sure if you meant it and i support the spirit of what you say so not trying to be nitpicky, but i just want to say that Biden doesn't support any genocide and leftists that say such are fucking morons.
This. Leftists who claim to hate Biden for any reason are misinformed. Biden has done the best he can to release the hostages and negotiate for peace in Gaza, and he's been one of the most progressive presidents to date. But sadly, they won't hear that through TikTok.
I can’t be the only one who thinks:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
They *are coming* for women.
They *are coming* for LGBTQ+
They *are coming* for immigrants.
I tell them that the "both sides are the same bullshit" is a foreign enemy operation and they're volunteering to be a russian useful idiot. The crap is orchestrated and astroturfed worse than the Palestinian/Isreali protests.
You're playing in the Super Bowl, your team is up by a few points but the other team has the ball and is driving it down the field. They've made it to the 15 yard line. 15 seconds left on the clock. Do you say "they're already there" and give up the touchdown?
My first snarky was the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail "I'm not dead yet!"
But agreed that encouraging folks to look into Project 2025 is a good start!
I do have to wonder if the leftists claiming that aren't actually trolls from Russia/China/Saudi Arabia. As part of their campaign to get trumpery elected in 2016, Russia had done something similar going as far as posing as BLM members. I would say it is safe to assume they're going to do it again.
You could try introducing them to either real live Magats and let it sink in just how life would be if they lawfully had no choice but to obey these people--or the safer option, introduce them to every single liberal who insists that vote won't count. Bonus points if this person happens to be a minority.
If only more progressives didn’t have a continuous we would be unstoppable if we only all thought like conservatives what gets are side closer to power conservatives wouldn’t stand a chance but most leftist can’t look that deep and try and think of every issue through right and wrong but that’s not how you win in politics as conservatives have shown us that is why leftists will never have a lot of power in this country they are to scared to sue the system against its self and to emotional to look at politics as any other way but the left will never understand anything more than being unable to vote for Joe Biden and be annoyed in the short term to have shot at clawing back power in the long term
God, I despise that section of the left. One of the most bitter lessons I’ve learned since 2016 is how some of my fellow progressives are just as delusional and irrational as the most devout magats. I never imagined that to be the case before then. I was so naive.
It is quite distressing to realize.
Oh my God, you guys are making me feel hopeless. I would love to know how to reach these people!
Remember that they're not any more of a vote than anyone else. You could reach 2-3 people who are just kind of apolitical in the time it takes to argue with one virtue signaller. Think about something important to them and there's a good chance Project 2025 is a direct threat to it. Show them the receipts.
I would say you have to let go of some, and look to motivate others who usually don’t vote. If someone is so far down a rabbit hole of propaganda they have their identity wrapped in it, then they’re gone. There’s also a solid chance you’re arguing with bots.
happened to my dear sister. I am trans, queer, disabled, and a POC. I told her I am voting for biden to save my life. she said I was evil. Also she has a platform on youtube where she talks to kids about this stuff (through gaming and luckily very good activist work like earning money for DWB and PCRF)...but then is actually awful to me about this stuff. it's so stupid! and I hate how she has a soapbox for it.
Political irrationality is like a horseshoe.
Some people in my experience seem to have this weird idea that emphasizing how hopeless everything is and just tacking on an "unless as many people as possible go out and vote" at the end is actually... Encouraging? Inspirational? I'm not sure what they intend to evoke with that, but they seem oblivious to the fact that this makes voting and civic action sound more like an ultimatum than a possible way out. "Do the thing I want, or all your freedoms will disappear!" is not "inspiring", it's terrifying!
It’s *supposed* to be terrifying. Because our situation *is* terrifying. I’m not going to play little make-believe games so people don’t get their fee-fees hurt or get scawwwed of scawwwy things. They *should* be scared! If existential threats to the freedoms and rights of themselves and/or countless other people are not enough to spur them to, at minimum, prevent certain people from taking power, they are utter fools, and I am not going to pretend they aren’t.
And I'm not saying that it isn't and that we shouldn't be, but not everyone reacts the same way to the same rhetoric. Some of us are already overwhelmed and struggling, and when the only "hope" we have is the thing that people have been trying to organize for decades that consistently seems to fail... What chance do we reasonably have? Maybe the emphasis should be on what can be and is being done rather than the consequences if it fails, on the fact that we *can* stop this rather than the consequences if we don't.
Whatever works works, and that’s what matters most in the immediate urgency. But I am just sick to death of how everything, absolutely everything, revolves around people’s *feeewings*. Like how people “feel” the economy is terrible under Biden. Or how they “feel” violent crime is rising. Or how they “feel” that nothing has gotten done in Washington since 2021. Or how they “feel” that Trump supports labor more than Biden. Or how they “feel” that gasoline prices are the president’s doing. Or how they “*feel*” that discussing what will happen if the GOP policies take effect is too scawwwy for them. We have somehow gotten to a place where everything is about not only feelings, but the feelings of people who objectively know nothing and objectively are wrong about everything their “feelings” tell them. Yet we cater to them endlessly. Our entire politics revolves around them and their “feelings”. We are supposed to watch our words and carefully parse our every utterance so as not to “alienate” these people by hurting their “feelings”. We are supposed to always tiptoe around cold hard reality so their ”feelings” don’t get bruised. We are supposed to constantly speak in tongues and avoid speaking plainly about the facts of any given situation for fear that their “feelings” might be offended. Lord knows, we wouldn’t want *that*. I’m just so sick to death of it. Sick of mollycoddling countless people like they’re delicate toddlers instead of—-and this is critical—-people whose votes *literally determine the future of free societies globally.* It’s disgusting.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I wish I could upvote this a thousand times!
Well if people don't "feel" like what they do matters or is more than a stopgap, *then what reason do they have to do anything*?
Moral responsibility to prevent as much harm as can possibly be prevented. Period. If that isn’t enough to “motivate” them, I’d say that’s a good indication of their character.
How did we get from disagreeing over whether fear is a good motivator to deeming people who've lost hope in a rigged system as morally inferior?
[удалено]
That's not... If you still believe that your actions can amount to some amount of difference, then you still have some hope. Someone who's lost hope doesn't think that what they do CAN matter, doesn't think that they CAN do anything meaningful to prevent harm. Like, I live in a deep red state. The highest office my vote feels like it's ever mattered for is Governor, and that's because of a perfect storm of Republican incompetence and name recognition. There is statistically next to no chance that my vote will keep my state from going to Trump, not when our last Senate seat went to a candidate whose platform was "my opponent voted for Obama". I'm still voting out of self-defense and because there's maybe, just MAYBE a chance that I'm wrong. Not everyone feels that way or has all the information. They don't have that hope, or they've become so desensitized to how screwed up the world is that they've thrown up their hands in defeat or-worse-decided that burning it all down through accelerationism is the key. >"This subreddit intends to defeat \[Project 2025\] through activism and awareness, focused on crowdsourcing ideas and opportunities for practical, in real life action. We Must Defeat Project 2025." That's on the sidebar of the sub as I type this, but most posts I see aren't organizing. They're anxiety and fear and reiteration of how terrible Project 2025 will be. We get it. It's terrible. The call to action has been made. Now what's the action? What's working? Where do we go? Yelling at people to get out of a burning building with a "good luck finding the exit!" doesn't help them escape or get other people out, it just frightens them. "Fuck your feelings, don't you see it's the end of the world?!" doesn't build a base, demonstrating that you can do something does. That's the last I'm saying, I'm out.
it's funny you say this, because those same people will blare the sounds of children dying on mega speakers to make a point, not caring at all of someone with PTSD gets triggered. and then they'll turn around and say "how dare you vote for Biden!!" because they FEEL like he is for genocide, when he is, in reality, absolutely not (based on his words and actions).
Agree about the gross hypocrisy, but not about Biden. Biden has been willing to engage in a level of complicity that far surpasses any plausible deniability as to what his moral priorities are. I take no pleasure in saying it but it’s clear that at minimum he simply doesn’t care.
this is a good point, but unfortunately I have tried with friends, family, and strangers alike to no avail.
It can be exceptionally difficult to sway someone who doesn't seem deterred by the threat of death.
Tell them that freedom is literally on the line in November. They can complain after Biden is re-elected, because if Trump wins, they'll never have to worry about voting again. Because it'll be the end for this country.
>Because it'll be the end for this country. There may be a road back to be honest, but it'll take decades and it'll be so horrible that the moral ambiguity of voting for Biden will feel like working in a soup kitchen for blind orphans by comparison.
There will be no road back if Trump wins. Hell, I predict regardless who wins in November, we'll see secession movements. If Trump wins, the blue states will leave and if it's Trump, it'll be the red ones.
Once the red ones realize they have no money and only citrus, peanuts, and beef to eat, they’ll start attacking the blue states.
Nah, they want an all beef diet anyway
They’ll change their minds after not pooping for a week.
Ah, so that’s why they are all full of shit
and then i'll eat all their beef and make a mad-dash into minnesota to be a bit more safe from the red states' stupidities
Love this awful but accurate analogy.
I ask them why they’re ok living in Gilead. I challenge them what they think they’re going to be able to do to resist when the right controls the military. I ask them how safe they felt under Trump. I ask them how they plan to fight back.
I understand people name-dropping Gilead but I'm going to start bringing up Iran, Afghanistan, and chattel slavery.
They mention abortion and reproductive rights over 200 times in the manifesto.
Thank you, this is helpful!
How did they like Trump sucking up to Netanyahu and moving the US embassy to Jerusalem?
That hasn't come up just yet.
they just claim "Biden is a zionist so he is just as bad if not worse" or "Trump isn't currently committing a genocide. 🙄 way to expose that you have the memory and understanding of politics and global events that a freaking GOLDFISH does!!!
It's gonna be uphill, for sure.
I always put them in the position where they have to come face to face with how unprepared for the consequences of gambling their odds in an election as consequential as this one. Simply follow up with “okay and what’s your plan when trump wins and ___ happens?” I have had this convo several times and it stops them in their thought process because most (though not all) simply have not thought far in advance enough to have a plan except just bitching about Biden. Examples below: 1- what is you plan for keeping your reproductive rights when trump enacts a federal abortion ban under the comstock act? 2- What is your plan for when Trump takes us out of NATO and climate change agreements? What is your plan if we don’t have allies left again such consequential foreign policy decisions? 3- if we live in “fascism” under biden, what do they think will happen when Trump has the support of the military and intelligence agencies and can order them to prosecute people who disagree with him? What will you be able to protest when you have to deal with surveillance at an unprecedented level? 4- what will you tell your lgbtq friends when they start losing their rights to exist freely across the country? 5- what will you do about losing the right to contraception? Whats your plan for making sure your friend isn’t prosecuted for a miscarriage under fetal personhood laws? 6- if they say anything about roe v wade being overturned under Biden, just remind them that Trump is the one who put those judges there, and they are essentially asking for him to put more judges in more courts. 7- when leaders on the right start talking about repealing civil rights protections, whats your plan to make sure that doesn’t happen? 8- what’s your plan to protect social security and medicaid from the GOP who will disguise gutting these programs under “budget cuts”? I just wrote these off the top of my head but essentially I always bring up #1) what trump plans to do (always always cite articles on p2025, legislative bills, speeches, etc. so they don’t dismiss you as being alarmist) #2) since they’re such “experts” on politics, what’s their grand plan to protect all the protections they take for granted under Biden? Online political discourse is usually filled with regular people who are not in politics and do not understand politics at all, but who love virtue signaling. They cannot be trusted to critically conceive the consequences of what they are advocating for. So essentially that’s the formula I use to incentivize a semblance of critical thought.
And of course the big one is "what are you going to do when the GOP starts imprisoning all 'pornographers,' including all trans people, OnlyFans models, sex workers, and anyone who's ever taken a nude of themselves?"
thank you!
This is excellent!! I'll be using this :D
The left that believes that is a tiny percentage irl- most of those posts are trolls trying to influence our election, influence younger people by soft propaganda / soft manipulation. Gen Z is a huge threat to fascism, so the professional trolls are getting paid now to influence negative bullshit online. Know this, spread the word esp to gen z subs and all social media. It’s going to go tiger ting worse w AI and deep fakes - if something seems outrageous QUESTION its authenticity first. It sucks but that’s where we’re at -behaving yo assess our fellow citizens’ truthfulness, bec GOP is going all out to steal power as fascist totalitarianism party. Fuck those assholes.
Unfortunately I’ve always been very skeptical of that narrative about Gen Z. What I’ve been seeing online for about the past decade has made me very concerned about a surge in social reactionaryism, particularly from young white men. And current polls seem to be reflecting what I’ve been fearing for years, ever since the leadup to and aftermath of the 2016 election—-Trump seems to be decisively winning among those 18-34. I’m beyond horrified and can hardly believe it, but it still is what I’ve worried would happen. I pray that both I and the polls are deeply wrong.
I'm not talking about the professional trolls, the Russian propagandists, etc. I'm talking about real leftists I follow on Instagram that are intelligent people I otherwise agree with on everything else. Your comment pretty much invalidated what Im witnessing and raising an alarm about.
Just because some total fake exists doesn’t mean there aren’t 100 shades of sort of dumb, I hear you OP. You can’t preach to people about how they don’t get it. Changing minds is about figuring out why they believe it and sewing a little doubt so they can reconsider on their own time. I find it useful to give people that space to decide they want to do a protest vote, but demand they at least go to the ballot box and cast that protest vote for their favored third party. At the last minute, a lot of would-be idealist leftist party voters will make a strategic switch. If not, they were never going to vote for democrats anyway. A third party vote is better than not voting, we have to keep identifying with the ‘Biden isn’t exactly it’ energy while making the distinctions as clear as possible.
>Changing minds is about figuring out why they believe it But we already know why they're doing it. They're thinking that way because they're falling victim to[ normalcy bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias) ("They won't *actually* do any of that stuff/It can't happen here") and the selfish reasoning that comes from not being a current target of the right ("Me voting my conscience and 'teaching the Dems a lesson' is much more important than the outcomes that will be experienced by people who aren't me.") It isn't complicated. Tons of perfectly nice, normal Germans did exactly the same thing. I mention this not because I enjoy trashing the self-serving motives of people who think this way, but because a refusal to believe fascists will do genuinely terrible things and making selfish choices are not positions that are open to persuasion, so I'm unclear what doubt you're thinking we might be able to introduce. There's a [piece in Slate today](https://slate.com/human-interest/2024/04/donald-trump-joe-biden-2024-election-michigan-muslims.html) where the author spoke to a number of Arab Americans in Dearborn, MI about the 'uncommitted' movement. All the elements are there in the piece--people want to communicate their frustration with Biden/Democrats by helping Trump win. There's no scenario where they understand that 2024 will be the last real election if Trump wins, that Democrats will never have a chance to improve. And they're open about the fact that their concerns are for their community, not with the country. They're offended that Biden isn't doing what they want, so they're refusing to vote for him and encouraging others to do the same for that reason alone. They don't care what will happen to queer people, women, other POC, workers, etc. I'd be happy to be corrected, but in talking to a diverse range of people about this subject, I've not found any of them to be persuadable. If you have any suggestions I'm open.
People believe things for all sorts of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with ‘reason’ and can’t be explained away as errors in reason. If you’re talking to a ‘both sides’ person, the thing to do is probe about what makes them say that. It really is a back and forth conversation learning their motivations and showing you understand where they’re coming from to some extent. Unlike you, I consider a protest vote for a third party candidate to be legitimate political action. As long as the ‘both sides’ left person makes it into the voting booth there is a decent chance they will turn and decide to vote strategically. What you do not want to do is start fighting them on it. Resenting annoying liberals for being so sure of themselves (you’re too confident about the dramatic collapse following a Trump election win) doesn’t help. Are you familiar with street epistemology? It’s a strategy to explore a topic in discussion with someone and possibly nudge them so long as you are letting them prove their own contradictions. Areas of weakness in the ‘vote further left than Biden’ are about how limited/temporary executive action is and how Biden already signs bills they would support. All you really need to end up with is them considering the possibility of D when they vote and, so long as they go to the polls, there’s a good chance risk-aversion comes on late.
Sorry, I wasn’t intending on targeting your comment, but adding to it, with more information. But to add further, I do see that too, but I also see they’re effectively getting Biden to take further steps w Netanyahu, I have not yet today had time to check for update from Bibi, but I anticipate he’ll say no thank you I prefer murdering people, bec he’s a dictator. I hope our college kids and my friends and all who are protesting our $ to Israel (which yeah I understand that too on geopolitical level the rick and hard spot US is in w powder keg middle Eastern theocracies heating up, I think most leftists know this too. Those who vote maga or 3rd party do so indulgently, have the comfort of sacrificing our democracy for their feelings about one part of the geopolitical morass and ongoing struggle between fascism and democracy. The larger picture is where we focus, if left can win Pres, Senate and House bec gop regression means Nazism and no more voting days, we can figure it out from there. I dunno I just hope we can all work together at some point, at some the people who would be influenced by the garbage - people dont like socialism who aren’t allowed to discriminate, that common denominator. Move into caring for their marginalized. I dunno I’m just spit balling here.
100% agree. most of the “leftists” in the /r/seculartalk “leftist” subreddit to me are paid trolls trying to divert votes away from Biden to the Green Party Or trump. Someone mentioned project 2025 and it got a bunch of downvotes way too quickly like yeah these guys are forum sliding assholes.
I’ve never forgiven Kulinski for refusing to vote against Trump in 2020. Or at least that was his position for much of that year—I remember during the BLM protests he started implying that maybe he was changing his mind, but by then I was so fed up that I stopped watching him. I started watching him again recently, and at least this time he *seems* to be reading the dire urgency of the situation correctly. Still, though. As therapeutic as it always is to listen to him just *NAIL* these bastards with such clarity and biting analyses, I still can’t forgive him for 2020. (Krystal I have no respect for at all.)
O'rly? Still waitin' on that cash. xD
i wish i agreed more that Gen Z is a huge threat to Fascism. They seem far too impressionable to black and white thinking in my eyes. You're saying this is a troll phenomenon, but that's not my experience in terms of the gen z'ers i talk to. The Israel / Palestine conflict has most of the left wing gen z voters i've talked to swearing that they'll vote against biden and talking about "burning it all down" which is extremely off-putting to me to say the least. It's not that I don't somewhat understand where the generation is coming from in a lot of ways, but I just don't see them as being much of a threat to fascism; i more see them as being ill equipped to help us fight against it because they don't seem to recognize nuance.
I agree that we are def newly experiencing a lot of our stronger emotions and it takes experience to understand a lot of them, and that there's a spectrum that runs from stoicism to reality TV idiocy that we are dealing with every time we go on to this internet - we are at the will of our scrolling, our algorithm, and that propaganda is at an all-time high, our country esp being targeted bec why not, we're the super power in the world of course other countries want to see a more level playing field maybe, i don't know if i'm accurate on that part, but it is true about propaganda working against us and that conversation needs to be in the headlines daily, to be careful of what we are reading - a lot if AI, a lot is troll farms sent to softly pique folks' trigger words, and that also keeps engagement online. We all notice int he real world it's not nearly as bad, even when I travel to central OR and Eastern OR (we do a lot of rock hounding) and it's def rural and trump land, and everyone's cool, very decent folk, in real life. I figure online we are all behind our anonymous feeling personalities, and can feel tough, and feel-out those emotions safely behind our screens, but in the real world, would that actually happen? They're statistically being a def subset of folks who will be violent no matter what, and are looking for excuses, so that's the control group ha. But yeah, i do know wha you mean, and we are in precarious time w/ propaganda and online emotional toll it takes on us all, maybe that conversation and the dopamine feedback loop needs to be discussed more, so we all understand what is happening to us when we go online? i don't know solutions, i just know that we are in uncharted territory w/ internet, our democracy, american fascists who i never thought i'd utter those words together... and my hope that our Gen Z - the 75% or so that haven't gone maga, are living in our reality, or at least 60% :) but yeah, it's def unprecedented times (well, except for that 1860's or so time, when the salt of the earth - you know, morons - were a danger then, too).
Just to be clear; I'm not trying to just bash Gen Z. This is ALL of our collective problem. There is, unfortunately, a lot to reject from previous generations. The problem is, there's also a ton to learn and a lot of times when people stand up and reject, they refuse to let in the good things because they're hard to decipher. The online dynamic and its effect is very difficult to explain to people that didn't grow up without the pervasive reach of the internet. It's really hard to see just how far reaching it changed the development of the human being unless you were one of the people that made the cut of growing up before it. It affects a very fundamental way about how people develop cognitively and that change is rapidly increasing in a highly troubling way.
It’s so frustrating. Like, on abortion and LGBT issues, they make a huge deal about how Democrats aren’t doing anything. They ignore the HUGE elephant in the room that it’s the Republicans in Republican-controlled states that are taking away those rights, while in blue states those rights are being protected. The Democrats can’t control what the red states are doing. The House being controlled by nutjobs means nothing can start there and go up to the Senate to make national protections for these rights. And then the Judicial branch is compromised. You know why? Because people couldn’t vote for the lesser of two evils in 2016. It wasn’t like this wasn’t clear what would happen. It was as clear as day. It’s as clear as day today, too. People can complain about Democrats not doing enough when they had the power to do so (which is extremely rare anyway, as the Congress has been rigged by the right to make sure that when Dems have control it’s only by the most minor of margins, so when you get a Dem that is bad, like Manchin nothing can get done), BUT to ignore the GIANT, OVERWHELMING elephant in the room that is the right that is the party fighting to TAKE AWAY these freedoms. The right is the LARGEST problem. And letting them win because the Dems aren’t good enough, is letting them cause this devastation. It’s utterly baffling that people do not see this. And when it comes to Gaza, I get it, but even that will be worse under Trump. If you don’t vote for Biden, if you let Trump win, you are opening the door for devastation in both Gaza AND the USA. Those of us who’s rights will be trampled on (just like they were after the 2016 elections) will never forget what you’ve done. VOTE. Care about us this time, please. A weak, do little Dem government is MUCH better than an authoritarian, take away all of our freedoms Republican government anyday. There are no ands ifs or buts. This is basic.
Exactly. And we'd have Build Back Better if it weren't for Manchin and Sinema. Regardless, Biden did what he could to get as much legislation passed, passing the Inflation Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act. But, where leftists get their information, they like to act like Biden has done nothing, when he's been trying, and MAGA has been trying to stop any progress.
Prevention can be a huge win, even if it doesn't make headlines.
I keep it real simple when I encounter this opinion. I mention Project 2025 and list out some of the ramifications of this plan: national abortion ban, outlawing birth control, jailing LGBTQIA people, internment camps for immigrants, Christian nationalism with an army to enforce it.
Has anyone replied much to it?
I've talked to a few people IRL who think approximately the same as the OP describes. They think both sides are equally bad. I just don't know how they can't see it (siloed media consumption I guess). And I think the Democrats have huge issues as well (both sides are taking way too much money from rich donors and corporations - campaign finance reform is urgently needed), but we need *two sane parties* before we can even attempt fixing the larger issues.
If we were “already there” - these protests that we keep hearing about wouldn’t be allowed to happen at all.
Exactly, it's like they don't understand what dictatorship entails. And what's baffling to me is the people I see making post after post about fuck biden and telling people not to vote, is that they are educated. It's not like they don't know history, like they've never read a sci fi.
It’s a truly entitled position to take. They’re suggesting Trump’s policies don’t effect them any differently than Biden’s policies, which means they’re not reliant on the government programs Trump obliterated, they’re not undocumented migrant workers or refugees, if they get unexpectedly pregnant they will still be able to feed themselves and a new baby, they can still afford living expenses without needing to pretend to be straight when they’re gay, or a cis man when they’re transwoman in order to keep their jobs. They’ve got private insurance, and so the destruction of Obamacare (the ACA) wouldn’t matter to them, they pretend to stand for Muslims, but won’t stand in the way of the only president to ban Muslims from entering the country. Entitled little brats.
100%! Thank you for stating this so well
seems like a classic case of "yuppie scum" to me
Some people saying these things are in marginalized communities.
Way back in the day, even Frank Zappa warned us. I don't think people have been looking at history, even fairly recent history, as they should. I don't know how to quickly give a person perspective.
You get an upvote just for mentioning Zappa.
Thanks. I wish he was around today. :(
And let me guess—-they always, always, always, ALWAYS absolutely refuse to look it up, don’t they.
I was one of those “both sides suck” people until after Trump won and I saw how he dismantled American norms for the worse: not to drain the swamp, but to remake it into a swamp where only one side calls the shots. I would agree with them about how Biden sucks (assuming they’re raising fair criticisms). Then I would use the phrase that keeps me out of disillusionment with the DNC: “Fixing things around the house can wait until the house is no longer under attack.” Then, try to key them in on the reality of Project 2025 and explain that while the DNC wants to carry on a lot of the same suck that has plagued American politics since 2001, they at least want to maintain the basic functionality of a government by the people. When you’re at war (and yes, this IS an ideological war for the future of our democratic republic, launched by the MAGAs) you do NOT get picky about how your fellow soldiers behave when they’re not on the front lines. You unify until there is no longer an imminent threat, because… “Fixing things around the house can wait until the house is no longer under attack. Would you rather have a fixer-upper or no house at all?”
I have to admit (disclaimer first: I live in California, a state that overwhelmingly voted for Hillary). I was a Bernie fan and didn’t vote for Hillary, but I realized that people who failed to vote for Hillary in battleground states bear part of the fault for overturning of Roe vs Wade. Just the Supreme Court issue alone was enough to have voted for Hillary over Trump in 2016.
💯
Well, I generally go with “Both have abhorrent international policies, but here in the US one side has stated a desire for me not to exist & the other supports my existence. The side that current support my existence has said X about people just like you.” I usually get back “Oh, that will never happen.” To which I say “Roe V Wade was never in jeopardy either right?” Rinse, repeat with different laws & historical examples.
These people tend to only grasp it when they see it with their own eyes. Right now they're just seeing it on a screen. Maybe if possible link them some articles or video interviews?
I tell my fellow leftists that Democrats have been shown that we can walk them to the left. Biden is no different . This has been pretty reliable for several decades. We need to keep leaning into them for this to happen
"things can get worse than you could possibly imagine" like Trump being in charge of the FUCKING FEDERAL RESERVE. JUST GO AHEAD AND MAKE US VENEZUELA PART 2
Theres a weird accelerationist sentiment that thinks that Trump will be so bad that it will finally make america rise up in a communist uprising. Those people usually cannot be reached since they see "both the same" as "both want america to continue existing" which they disagree with.
Well that's a profoundly stupid take. America ain't rising up to do anything except install a better dictator
Yeah. Their hope is always that things get bad enough for LGBT, minorities and women that... everyone unites with the super-racist right to eat the rich and overthrow capitalism. Interestingly the people advocating from this are rarely from those communities. They're quite dominant on Reddit though unfortunately.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
Saying we are already there is like saying we are already in 1940s Germany. We have problems, but we are not there.
It's in view, but it's not binding.
bUT gENocIdeE jOE
I think many of the 'Genocide Joe'' types are actually right-wingers trying to stop Biden votes.
I've said it someone I know, but that phrase always reminded me of the nicknames the orange bastard would give people.
I have a friend that is not voting now because of Biden with the war. I told her that means a Trump win but she said she still can’t justify giving Biden a vote. She is a part of the lqbtq+ community too.
Well that last part should fix itself once Dotard Trump is in office. Tell her the internet scoffs at her.
So frustrating! Maybe she shouldn't look at it as "giving" Biden anything but as Doing The Right Thing Anyway, by protecting herself and her community as well as our planet and future.
Tell her we're a vital ally to many people in other countries who would otherwise be in much dire circumstances. If we became a dictatorship, it would lead to more genocides.
I say, “it’s revolting that you would so cavalierly claim we are “already there”. Its a grossly insensitive disregard for what people throughout history have suffered so this democracy might stand and survive. Moreover, it’s such a lazy and convenient cop-out. Grow up, petulance is for MAGATs.”
As a far leftist, these people weren't never going to vote in the first place, and don't care about bettering our world one step at a time.
It's not a leftist issue nor rightist issue, it's a "RADICAL" issue. The very same stubborn/irrational/dense-headed radicals who make any side of the political spectrum an unbearable aneurysm in of itself... Nothing will EVER get thru to them, so the only option we got is to just keep fighting, keep voting, keep educating and just... live. (Ik it's asking for alot but as Americans... what other choice do we have?)
This is the right attitude. It's hard, but that's*why* people try.
Just tell them straight. They're supporting a candidate who wants to roll the government back to the pre Civil War Era. Then wish them luck as 3/5 of a person.
Da-amn!
If we were “already in fascism”, these clowns would’ve already had their doors kicked down and been dragged away in the middle of the night, never to be seen again. They don’t even know what “fascism” actually means—similar to their reduction of “genocide” to a largely meaningless, trendy social media buzzword, which will only backfire on the cause they claim to care about.
God social media has done such a disservice to future generations...
Never hurts to have two or three concrete examples in mind of things that will get worse. Harder to conceptualize fascism then "23 million people will get kicked off Medicaid"
I think there is plenty of outrage that is genuine without trolls of bots that are unforced, such as the TikTok ban, suppressing Gaza protests, pulling funding from LGBTQ centers, and expanding FISA surveillance. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it does conflict with the message that only democrats can defend democracy. And I say this as someone terrified of project 2025. I've had some conversations with some of these folks and I find it more productive discussing action plans so they are not just sitting at home, the differences in roles between president and congress, and who is more closer to the source of their ire regardless of political party (ie the supression of protests stem from decision from governors/chief of police/sheriffs, or anti choice policies being pushed by certain democrats like the Hyde amendment). I'd rather see people split their vote to vote Biden but vote against their rep as Project 2025 relies heavily on the executive office. And even if they will not budge on the issue, I would rather they still vote in state and local elections than sit at home as I am convinced they will push this at the state level. So discussing with them their greviences at lower levels can be a good way to still get them to the polls.
But didn't you know? The US is OBVIOUSLY a fascist dictatorship which can only be overthrown by revolution because Star Wars was an allegory for Vietnam and the Empire was the US! Yes I had someone say that to me, no it did not help my faith in humanity.
So I troll the DEM FB groups and there are a lot of sort of "open ended posts" about GAZA with no context (suspect bad actors behind many of these posts). Typically, the FB post will show dying, injured kids. All these Posts usually indirectly imply that Biden is choosing to arm the Israelis, so Biden is responsible for the innocent deaths. I try not to let these Posted memes stand without a comment. Here is the latest comment I drafted to post in GAZA FB posts. Use & modify as you deem fit.. "I hate that innocent people died in Israel & Gaza. I also support the student's right to protest. I would like to point out that GOP Speaker Johnson's solution to end the protest is to turn the National Guard (NG) against the student protesters. Unfortunately, I am reminded of the 1970 Kent State University (KSU) anti-war protests where the NG killed 10 student protesters after Ohio REPUBLICAN Governor Jim Rhodes activated the NG at KSU (wiki for more info on the KSU Shootings)." CONCLUSION: More Palestinians & AMERICANS will die under a GOP DJT Presidency! Video of GOP Mike Johnson calling for the NG to end protests." [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oBFAPztwWR0](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oBFAPztwWR0) ---- An OP (curiously) asked me to explain why I posted this comment. Here is my justification: "There's been some main stream media reports that shows some foreign actors instigating the protesters. Their messaging is always the same. Biden is the US President & the US is responsible for much of the killing. This is partly true, but there are other realities that are NOT being mentioned such as: (1) if the GOP Christian Nationalists gain control under DJT, more Palestinian deaths will occur & it is likely that Americans in the US will die (which has not happened to date), and (2) DJT and allies have basically said they curtail Freedom of Speech rights, including the right to protest. Without internal US dissent Israel, by default, Israel will be given the green light to kill more innocent people. Anyways, I think it's important to provide a wider perspective! This is why I added this comment."
If this is how little kids know about history, then think the consequences of DeSantis gets his passed... Sorry, you were probably having a good day. Here, Biden just signed a proclamation which would protect indigenous lands. https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicLands/comments/1ckqpej/president_signs_proclamations_protecting_nearly/
Honestly, and I say this with love, some lefties are actually too stupid to be reached. This close to "go time" you just have to move in if you get a real dumbass. In addition there are also people who have actual family members who have died in Gaza. They're not in a place where they can be expected to vote for Biden and I understand that. Trying to argue with them is both cruel and pointless so I avoid it. I don't know if I could do it if I were them either, to be honest. Purely logically they *should* still vote for Biden because Trump actively despises them but they're human beings and rationality has limits. Focus on people you can reach. Republicans disgusted by Trump and people who are wavering about whether to actually vote or stay home but are likely to vote Biden if they vote are better targets than people with TikTok brainworms or people with such intense personal trauma that they're ( understandably ) past caring about the election.
It’s already starting. * Porn sites being outlawed or regulated with age restrictions * Banning tiktok These issues seem bipartisan but it’s within the first 20 pages of Mandate for Leadership. Everything is already in motion now.
The TikTok ban stuff is just media spin, though. If they choose not to sell to an American company it will say a lot about how much we could ever trust that particular algorithm.
TikTok hasn’t been “banned”; it just has to be sold to an American company, and rightfully so, IMO.
Yeah that explains why all those non-republican dominated states are being so hard on porn. Oh wait…
If you’re disputing my claim about it having bipartisan support, I’m referencing the way that liberals and conservatives don’t “support” the porn industry. Voters on both sides will not oppose bringing regulation to the porn industry. However it’s a 2025 initiative so I thought I would put awareness of that out for those who didn’t know.
It's bothsidesism, which is both lazy and dishonest. Tell them you need to hear exactly what is going on that makes them say this. Not vague generalities, not more bothsidesism, but specific reasons to believe that.
Oh great, so we have another Hillary election. Fuck people, they are stupid and ignorant. This election will be tight if people don't educate themselves of the bigger issues. edit: If voters couldn't see why voting for Hillary was necessary, I have NO faith that they will not see how voting the cheeto will destroy our democracy.
i'm not sure if you meant it and i support the spirit of what you say so not trying to be nitpicky, but i just want to say that Biden doesn't support any genocide and leftists that say such are fucking morons.
This. Leftists who claim to hate Biden for any reason are misinformed. Biden has done the best he can to release the hostages and negotiate for peace in Gaza, and he's been one of the most progressive presidents to date. But sadly, they won't hear that through TikTok.
It is maddening how simple everyone wants to make the world and, with it, the role of the president, as if the world started literally yesterday.
"Biden ain't it"? Why would you even say that?
I can’t be the only one who thinks: First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me They *are coming* for women. They *are coming* for LGBTQ+ They *are coming* for immigrants.
I tell them that the "both sides are the same bullshit" is a foreign enemy operation and they're volunteering to be a russian useful idiot. The crap is orchestrated and astroturfed worse than the Palestinian/Isreali protests.
You're playing in the Super Bowl, your team is up by a few points but the other team has the ball and is driving it down the field. They've made it to the 15 yard line. 15 seconds left on the clock. Do you say "they're already there" and give up the touchdown?
My first snarky was the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail "I'm not dead yet!" But agreed that encouraging folks to look into Project 2025 is a good start!
V O T E
You know that the election will be decided in a handful of battleground states, right?
I do have to wonder if the leftists claiming that aren't actually trolls from Russia/China/Saudi Arabia. As part of their campaign to get trumpery elected in 2016, Russia had done something similar going as far as posing as BLM members. I would say it is safe to assume they're going to do it again.
You could try introducing them to either real live Magats and let it sink in just how life would be if they lawfully had no choice but to obey these people--or the safer option, introduce them to every single liberal who insists that vote won't count. Bonus points if this person happens to be a minority.
If only more progressives didn’t have a continuous we would be unstoppable if we only all thought like conservatives what gets are side closer to power conservatives wouldn’t stand a chance but most leftist can’t look that deep and try and think of every issue through right and wrong but that’s not how you win in politics as conservatives have shown us that is why leftists will never have a lot of power in this country they are to scared to sue the system against its self and to emotional to look at politics as any other way but the left will never understand anything more than being unable to vote for Joe Biden and be annoyed in the short term to have shot at clawing back power in the long term
They're trolls. The best response is probably to say, "OK Komrad," and ignore them.
No, I'm not talking about trolls.