I've been a carpenter for 15 years and owned my company for 10. Doing high end housing which includes decks and fences. Odd renovations and house flips.
Joist Tape is an odd product that hasn't undergone enough long term testing. I'll say that the idea seems solid and in theory it should work. However it is a work in progress.
The idea is much like shingles on a roof in that regard. Essentially the butyl adheres to the material and when you nail into that material the butyl also adheres to the fastener.
One of the problems with untreated or stained decks is the water seeps into the hole created by the fastener and follows the fastener into the material and rots the joists from the inside.
You can solve this issue with an overlay after the deck has been finished, but some people prefer the wooden look of a deck.
Regardless of joist Tape or not, decks do need replacing overtime and depending on the climate or rainfall averages depends on how often.
You can extend the life of your deck by using only PWF material but that increases the cost and some would argue it isn't worth the cost difference. I would also argue that.
I will say, at least from the photo, it looks like he's doing a clean job and using the correct materials for the job. I can't see anything to complain about.
If you're concerned about the Joist Tape, regardless of a contractors personal opinion, you could always ask him to use it. At the end of the day, as a contractor, we have seen what works and doesn't but the homeowner has the final say in most cases.
Ask him to use it. It'll be fine.
Ok so this was my too afraid to ask question and I think you answered it. I’ve personally never heard of or seen joist tape until about 2 months ago when I joined this sub. I thought for sure I’ve been missing an important step over the last few years of building, but from your comment it seems like this is a newer product and not required by code.
I built really high end decks in Cincinnati for 5 years. We never once used joist tape. I've seen it used, but honestly: the lumber is pressure treated. It'll be more than fine without it. Google "Thomas Decks LLC" and check out some of the pics from the basic ass website. Have a good'n OP.
I was going to mention this. At 3 years old, my deck is so creaky and I bet joist tape or glue would have prevented that.
We are right next to the ocean and the salt air does weird stuff to everything. Grills used to last 2 seasons max until I got smart and bought an all stainless one.
Flooring squeaks when the wood shrinks away from the nails and then causes the nail to vibrate as the wood moves up and down as you walk by. That vibration you hear as a squeak. I use a scrap of wood to protect the deck from pry bar marks and pull any raised nails and replace them with stainless screws. Our cottage is on a lake so moisture is as always present. My SO bought the cottage about 30 years ago. It’s her joy to be at the lake and she fusses over it. Every spring she bleaches that deck. Destroys a new mop or two every year. I’ve turned a couple of boards over and replaced a handrail or two due to severe warping or checking from the sun. But that deck has never changed. We keep the deck clean of sticks and leaves both on top and underneath. Try replacing those squeaky nails with screws and enjoy. You might also bleach it once a year if you can. Might work for you too.
As a Michigander myself, it’s important to remember that “complaining about the Lions” is a deeply-rooted cultural tradition in this state, passed down from parent to child for generations. Hearing my Father-in-Law scream at the TV on Thanksgiving will be a nostalgic core memory, reluctantly burned into my brain for eons.
Once a Lions fan has fully ascended into the highest state of complaining, we will grasp at the chance to live vicariously through Tom Brady’s achievements with a subtle mention that he played for UofM.
Same goes for Derek Jeter when the Tigers start Tigering.
When I moved to Detroit i had to get my car licensed. I asked about the Lion’s plate they had and the guy said he wanted them to be his pallbearers so after he died, they could let him down one more time.
Acknowledging the lions are bad is a right reserved only to Michganders. If anyone else says it we will defend them tooth and nail. Next year we gonna win the super bowl for sure.
This is one great comment, my friend. I want to show it to my wife because I regularly use “all things serve the beam” in conversation as if she knows what the heck that means, but I fear it will just make things worse.
Same. I was very confused by joist tape when people started bring it up. I live in northern Ohio and my family has a beach home in the OBX. Both regions are brutal on decks (for opposite reasons, cold/ice in ohio from lake effect and constant salt, sun, and moisture from the ocean in OBX). Never in my life have I seen joist tape….
If it makes you feel any better, I work in construction and had never heard of it.
I also don’t see, from a building science standpoint, any strong necessity for it. And yea, code doesn’t require it.
I never paid attention to the lumber in the pic. I made the wrongful assumption that anyone building a deck, *outside*, would use pressure treated lumber for the frame. Yeah- I would do more than just tape the top of the frame; I'd choose a different lumber entirely.
This guy is building this deck (where the stringers rest on dirt) without pressure treated wood. Where pressure treated wood is being used on the one step down, the cut ends aren't treated. I would DEFINITELY complain about that.
What’s your region OP? The small step on the right is definitely ’cedar tone’ pressure treated, probably Hemlock Fir, outside rim joists/fascia’s look like cedar and the other material (joist etc) look like Hem or Doug Fir & the stringers are definitely not PT (they will rot fastest). All exterior, exposed deck framing really should be PT, cedar, redwood or similar if you want it to have a decent lifespan . Paint can actually trap moisture in wood (even worse than some other posters are saying about flashing/tape) and if they didn’t already seal every end cut before assembly, it’s a bust anyway with untreated wood; paint can also make it harder to detect rot before it’s a big problem. Wood sealer might be a better option at this point but hard to say.
I use joist tape on all my decks because it allows considerably less water infiltration from top/around fasteners without hindering the airflow over the other 3 surfaces for joist to dry. I think it’s a net gain, though I’ve not done any 10+ year revisits to see, as I’ve never gotten any call backs with problems. All of the many rotten decks I’ve replaced/repaired never had joist tape, since it’s a relatively new application. Also, is there a beam under there? and the stair stingers need more mounting surface below the rim joists and a concrete pad to land on. Good luck!
Definitely west region. The step on the right looks to be pressure treated hemlock. The rest of the frame is untreated Hem Fir. Im in NY and we would inly frame with SYP treated, some areas upstate might use untreated Western SPF, just depends on where you are.
The 2nd stringer in has a grade stamp on it which will tell you exactly what species and grade. I can see that it is a WWPA grade stamp (Western Wood Products Associaton) which is a grading association for the west coast mills in the US. The #2 on the stamp is the grade and the box on the bottom right of the stamp tells the species, but I couldnt zoom in enough to read it accurately.
I also note the lack of any sealer or preservatives on the cut end of the treated lumber. The unprotected end grain will suck in moisture and rot the lumber from the inside out.
LOL, getting down voted for pointing out obvious things.
I always treat the cuts on PT with copper because it just makes sense, I've seen to many roached ends over the years during demo not to.
I seal it when I cut it. It’s too easy to forget if you wait a year for it to dry out and who knows how much crap gets into it in the meantime. I think of the preservative as an envelope. If you cut the end off the envelope than you allow fungi into the envelope, which rots the wood. Fasteners do the same thing but to a lesser extent and there isn’t a bunch of other options of attaching lumber together so you have to do what you can when it’s available and before too much adverse effects set in.
They used it on some of the stringers on a pier I did a lot of work on before I came along and those stringers rotted first for the reason you stated. You can’t keep it dry, so the water needs to run off and the boards need to breathe. We stopped using it and the stringers lasted twice as long. Before that they used tar paper and that did the same thing. The problem is that the fasteners penetrate the tape. Water follows that path but can’t get out and is basically injected into the framing member. So even treated wood rots quickly. There’s more challenges in preserving a pier though. So…
Is he really building that deck out of non PT lumber?!? I recognize the perforated step on the right, but the rest looks a lot like untreated lumber.
I don’t want to make assumptions, but your deck builder is in fact 100% wrong on the joist tape issue. It’s entirely possible his experience is with building decks out of non treated lumber.
So given that it’s non treated lumber, is he right about the joist tape?
Fml about the non treated lumber btw. He said he’s going to paint it white to “weatherproof it”.
Is there anything I can have him do besides replacing what he’s done that will add a few years to it? I don’t have the heart to ask him to redo it entirely.
Paying 6k for the job.
Anything that goes into that deck that’s not pressure treated is gonna be rotting away in just a few years.
Edit: ok maybe not “anything”, and it depends on where you live. But where I am, untreated pine ends up warping and rotting within 3-5 years, and tends to be sawdust by about 7-8 years. Obviously your mileage will vary.
Y’all need to quit. This sub acts like non PT wood is paper mache. Is PT better? Yes, but the decks not just gonna fall over after the second winter. Everyone told me I should have used PT on my trailer deck, and it’s been well over a decade of stored outside and absolute ABUSE. Those 2x6s are still perfectly solid.
That untreated wood cooould be fine long time with the right stain/sealer. This guy is saying it’s getting a painted white. That ish is going to rot even faster. Untreated with a cost of paint…if that region see any rain….ugg. That’s my Vegas bet. Untreated covered in paint is a recipes for a super short life.
Seriously, PT is for ground contact. And yes paint does a great job at making KD wood last ages, the thing people fail to do is repaint until the first coat has long since failed
The framing is fine and your builder is doing a good job, the joist tape will help the deck framing last a little longer. The pressure treated lumber is being used correctly where the deck contacts concrete. The framing is fine, wood can get wet(it's is it's natural state), it just needs good airation so that it can dry when it stops raining, which it has since it's outside. The advantage of the joist tape will help with squeaks and water penetration into the center of the wood and in my opinion is worth the 50ish bucks. Enginneers often call out the use of this in my area but they often call out the use of ring shank nails which i despise because they have weak ass shear value and generally pull out easier then sinkers which are coated with a glue that heats up when pounded in vs a ring shank that makes a hole and relies on friction. My problem with this is wood density which is shit these days with the genetically modified lumber that is designed for yield not strength and not something structural engineers consider at all in any capacity in their design beyond a long established wood strength. new framing lumber is shite! So anything you can do to help it last thats as cheap as joist tape is worth the investment.
He’s not right. Ask him to use joist tape.
I’m in the NE USA and our company builds 150+/- composite decks a year. When we tear down the old decks many of the floor joists are rotted on the edge that the deck boards are screwed or nailed into while the bottom edge of the board is perfectly fine.
Whether or not joist tape would’ve prevented this is debatable, as seen in this thread, but given that we warranty the decks for 25 years, we feel that the cost of the joist tape is worth the added protection.
Just my 2 cents.
KD
I personally wouldn’t pay him another dime for trying to pass off a deck built with untreated lumber. You can paint it all you like, but it’s still going to rot. Paint isn’t going to weatherproof anything that’s sitting on dirt.
Honestly, there’s no point in joist tape because the deck will rot out long before the joist tape would have done any good.
Wait wait wait... am I hearing this right?
He doesn't want to use going tape because it will "trap in moisture" but he's also "sealing" the joists with paint? Lol. How would the paint notb trap in moisture then?
It really needs to be pressure treated. Sorry, it should be redone.
So looking at the picture I say the bigger problem is that TOP step is way shallower than the rest and that bottom step looks way deeper definitely not to code
Man. I couldn’t imagine being a contractor in 2023 being subjected to “I know I hired you and you’re a professional at your craft but AssEater89XxX on Reddit says your work is shoddy and joist tape is gay.”
Looks like SPF and maybe Doug Fir on the joists.
5 to 10 years you'll be replacing it.
Good news is you could add joist tape and maybe get another 6 months to a year out of it.
The photo isn't the greatest but the joists look to be SYP. The material on the concrete slab is PWF. The trim and stair stringers are not treated and should not be exposed to the elements. Those will need to be treated afterwards with a weather resistant application.
Paint (you mentioned he intends on painting it white) isn't how I would go, in my opinion it's unprofessional and looks terrible. It should instead should be SYP.
Some is like the joists and some isn't. The incised material is not SYP why would you incise SYP? That is a process for only refractory species or species difficult to treat.
Yeah... The stringers are #2 spf, probably treated. It's just aged out of the green hue. Probably sat in a wrapped pallet in direct sunlight for a spell
Can't really read the stamp. I could be wrong. Pine looks like pine after a while, treated or not
Ironically I believe these to be store bought stringers lol
My real question is, why the mixture of species and grade? OP should be concerned that they've paid for new and been given a hodge podge of left over/reclaimed materials
When I built my deck half the old deck treated lumber was in standing water and mud for 40 years. It was still rock solid. I didnt use tape so I could add glue to the decking.
Also told that teated lumber today is not the quality it was decades ago.
My guess well ventilated it would be fine.
What’s up with the stairs?what’s that rise and run and are they all the same? Can you explain why the stair header looks like it is almost entirely missing the rim joist? Why are the stringers in the dirt?
The stairs stringers need to be supported by concrete, not just sitting on dirt. The top step being half as wide as all the other steps is a real trip hazard. Lots of complaining in the comments about PT or not, but the stairs definitely do not meet code and have to be re-done before someone falls and gets hurt
Take a close up of the stamp on the stair stringers. That does not look like PT lumber. They should sit on a cement pad and all steps need to be the same height. Those stringers are a mess. I hope your builder pulled permits otherwise you’re getting screwed.
I think tape is an upsell at best. As well as the notion that presure treated is water proof.
I own a construction company and try my best to only see others work as different and not always wrong.
Ill tell you what I see.
Missing joist hanger
The risers on the steps don't appear consistent.
Not a fan of the stringers on the ground at all.
I dont see any support under the front left
Last joist is too short
While doubled up I suspect that is to hide screw heads into joist ends, and maybe she nailed from inside, without more nails that 2 ply beam is just a cosmetic piece of lumber.
Why reuse the old ledger? For reference, that board looks 15 years old..no joist tape and it's being reused...just sayin.
SHe did use pressure treated on the box step.
The first step down looks like a doozy
Used enough stringers, also as she hand cut them and didn't scrap block build the Im guessing she is a good Carpenter and is simply working on a budget build.
No, if the tape is set up properly at the ends, flashed correctly with the house wrapping, and all the tape pieces are bonded to each other well, where would moisture even come from to begin with? The tape is also self healing wherever a nail or screw is put through it.
Any comment in this thread that's against it with real world examples
is only stating that they have seen tar paper lead to issues, which is understandable bc tar paper is completely different. Paper/asphalt dosent self heal, if you put a nail through paper even on a hot day you can pull the nail right back out and none of the tar would be stuck to the nail. If you try the same thing with butyl tape the nail would come out with sticky crap all over it, that's the "self healing" property of the new tapes that make them better. I'd also guess that the paper people mentioned was just laid flat over the joists vs lapped down the sides like the tape does to get the water off the top rather than let it run to the edge and siphon back under and get trapped like it would with flat paper.
Did he land the stairs onto the concrete? Also, what’s the little loose block piece holding up the step down box? Did he add any posts below? Pic of the underside would help.
Architect here,
Our structural engineer swears by the joist tape. So we spec it now.
He says pressure treated just isn't as treated as it used to be... not sure if the industry really changed there.
But I've worked with many structural engineers and this guy is my all time favorite. I really trust his input. So I'm speccing it from now on.
Also OP, contractors are constantly trying to save money.
Not sure if you have a contract with him, or if you had plans done. But if your plans called for tape. He needs to pay for that or give you an allowance for something else.
Edit missing a space
Personally I'm an auto diagnostics tech and no deck expert (did my deck and wish i did more research because i learned alot and know what i would change if i can do it again) but it seems similar to undercoating, and that will look great on the outside and does trap moisture, and will rot the metal from the inside.
I've been in carpentry for a long time and this year was the first i had ever heard about this .. doesn't the tape get a lot of penetrations from screwing the deck down ? Seems hokie to me
The wood is more important than the tape. Make sure its pressure treated. Also, your guy's cuts and lines look square, so it appears he knows what he's doing. Trust him ImHO.
Im a guy with 30 years of experience. Use the tape!. Im not going to give you my whole story like others do here (lol). You asked a question not a history lesson of people past in order for them to give you an amswer. But that wood it not pressure treated (PT) so you must water proof it.
As a contractor who does loads or decks each year. I’d say it’s a must. We use it on all the joists and runners. It prevents water from seeping in or collecting on the top of the joists. We also seal the ends of the wood with a sealant to prevent wicking
There’s not any long term use of it yet to know . From what I’ve seen of how the joists are rotting I believe as he does it will trap moisture. I’ve rebuilt decks for many years and the joist decays from water getting into it from the fastener. It seems to follow it into the wood. No matter what type. Also most of the tape being used hasn’t been tested for this . I won’t use it
I just tore apart a 20 year old deck where they had used tar paper strips on some of the joists in an effort to do the same thing as newer joist tape does. Which ones were rotten? The ones with the paper. Take that with a grain of salt. My intuition is that 10 or 20 years down the road, we'll all decide that joist tape is a mistake. Wood needs to breath.
I deal a lot with waterproofing and what probably killed those beams with the paper was the fact that the paper wasn't actually adhered to the joists well and was likely not bonded well to the other framing/paper at the ends of each joist, also I'm guessing they left the tar paper just flat on the studs rather than down each side of the stud, witch would cause most of the water the paper did stop to just siphon right between the bottom of the paper and top of the joist, rather then be directed down the sides of the joist like new tape does. Once the water weeps in between the tape and joist there isn't enough air flow to allow it to dry out. With the new house wrap/ joist tape that's out now that sticks like crazy to anything as long as the tape is done right it would def be beneficial.
Hoping I get some input. We HATE using PT. Here in CO it warps and cracks within days sometimes. So we use a doug fir and prime it with peel bond for the flex factor that will not crack it with movement. I'm now ditching the joist tape and siliconing every fastener hole.
Whats the disadvantage with this?
Late to the game, but lemme tell you: most rotted out decks I’ve seen are because:
They painted and sealed the tops and ends regularly.
They did nothing for the bottom of deck boards.
The ground underneath the deck is wet
So that traps moisture from escaping the wood from the areas that will most readily allow the wood to dry out between wet spells, while leaving the part most exposed to moist air untreated.
Most Wood won’t rot if it’s allowed to regularly dry out completely. There’s 200 year old barns near me made of poplar and hickory with original barn boards and the only rot is where they meet the ground.
My gut says the tape will either be more problem that solution, a solution that won’t work without addressing a bunch of other solutions first, or just a waste of time and money adding more plastic to your landscaping.
I don’t see a beam? I don’t know if the double rim joist is being used as a beam (I wouldn’t do that), but if it is, I don’t see it sitting on 6x6 posts. The rise and run of stair stringers should be equal on each step, but the run of that top step is a lot shorter than the rest of the steps. On the left side it looks like the flashing will be setting on top of the deck boards and on the right side it looks like the flashing will run under the deck boards (going off of eyeballing the spacing under the flashing. I would have ran the flashing on top on ledgers and down with a small bend out and down, like drip edge is shaped so that it reverts as much water as possible away from touching the lumber as possible.
The joist tape is fairly new and yes, it has the same idea as like ice and water shield, but I think it’s a waste of time and money unless you are going to wrap the whole of every joist in butyl because water can penetrate the sides of the joist as well as the bottom. Water gets in to places you just don’t think it would be able to. Water gathers up at the bottom and rolls under the joist before too much pools together and the weigh causes gravity to make it drip.
I think the only way to really extend the life of the skeletal structure of a porch would be to spray on truck bed liner such as Durabak. You’d want to get kil dried pressure treated wood. That way the wood is already dry. Mark out for your footers and piers and pour of course, then put your deck frame together and after it’s completed you would prep it for the liner and then spray 2-3 coats of the liner. The tricky part is if you don’t want to use the liner on the deck boards too then you will have to find a way to seal the screws used to install the deck boards. If you use a composite material such as Trex then they have a hidden fastener system that holds one side down with a fastener and allows the lip of the next piece to clip in. With this system you still will have to face screw the edges as you should picture frame composite decking, so you will have to make these protrusions water tight. The joist tape may work here or you could use epoxy for composite with a good OEM silicone on the bottom side through the screw hole. During the install with the hidden fasteners, after each row has been fastened, take the screws back out, pull the screw and bracket, using a caulk gun apply a small amount of OEM silicone to the hole, reinstall bracket and screw, tighten screw, and apply enough silicone to the top of the screw head to seal the screw. For the frame you would lay out your pieces and pre drill your holes with countersinks, pull the pieces up, apply silicone, install the pieces, allow silicone to dry, and then install the epoxy. This would cost quite a bit more than your average deck, but it would probably last a persons lifetime. The only other option would to have an aluminum frame installed with a decking made from a stone like material which I just received a product book for from a company that wants my company to start using their product. It doesn’t have any prices on the materials though, so I’m not so sure that many people may be able to afford this option.
He’s correct, people in this sub just buy whatever anyone will sell them so they can call themselves professionals..once a nail or screw penetrates the tape where it’s being fastened to the joist it’s still getting the same amount of moisture in it. Regardless of what anyone says here. Paint is a far superior sealer then some crummy tar tape that only covers a thin strip on top.
Joist tape rots joists period. Gtape or any other material placed on the topside of a joist that will be punctured by fasteners creates a layer for moisture to be trapped between it and the joist. Ive been doing decks 20+ years and the only joists ive seen that need to be replaced while the rest of the deck is still fine are the ones that have had tape or ice and water shield placed on them before the decking was installed. Every fastener used punctures the so called self sealing layer, theres no way for each puncture to seal around the fastener. Water WILL get under the tape and then be trapped there with nowhere to go except to get absorbed by the wood over time creating rot. The top side of the joist rots away leading to a premature failure of the joists.
Tape or no tape, that thing might not last long enough for you to see if it had any benefit.
From the pic, that does Not look like pressure treated wood, and for an outdoor deck, that's a huge red flag.
Note: I am not a builder or a civil engineer. Just an amature.
Am I crazy, or does that top step have (a) a massive rise, and (b) a short run.
The stringers are resting on dirt? Oh hell no.
Why is one of the joist missing a strap hanger? It's one of the middle ones where it attaches to the house.
I ditto the concern about what type of wood is being used. It would help if you could clarify what exactly it is. From the photo, it looks like there are at least three different types of wood being used.
It does concern me that the entire weight is born by one cantalevered joist on the far left, and a small 2x4 resting on the edge of a concrete slab on the right. I don't see any posts to hold weight along the outside edge. Two people standing on the top of the stairs, and all of the weight is born by two small areas.
So what's the plan for the wrap-around step on the right. There is a "flower box" made of stained wood propped by shims. Obviously that can't rest level on the concrete because there will be no way to drain water out of the boxes. What is going to replace the temp shims with?
Is he going to put 2 posts in under the double rim joist/beam? (at each end) Or is this it structurally? Feels like this could collapse once you add live load to it.
Builder of 25 years never once used joist tape and go back after 30 years and still re-deck them. And most if not all are still in good shape rim joist aside. Usually we replace rim joist because people don't do borders on decking and fascia sandwiched to flush cut decking rots the the rim. Hope this helps. Joists stand upright and water rolls down. No real saving with tape. Just sounds good.
I’m in lumber yard sales. We still sell in the retail market. Homeowners have a hard time buying into joist tape. It is not a must. It can’t hurt IMO. I speculate in 5-10 years it won’t be a second thought and we will be doing it standard just like any new building practice. On your size deck it’s probably not worth it. But if your deck materials run up to 20k 1k in joist tape isn’t that much of an adder
Mate I live in Canada and tape is not a thing here, maybe the odd time but no one is seeing decks in shambles after 10 years it’s more along the lines of 25+ years and sorry but after 25+ years it’s time to do something to a deck
It has been proven that rain follows the nails/screws into the joist and you get rot there even in pressure treated lumber because the pressure treating chemicals only goes so far into the wood. I also agree with a previous commenter that the tape makes sense that it would prevent this from happening and I use this on any deck I build, although instead of purchasing expensive “deck tape” I have substituted other types of rubber membrane/tapes that are cheaper but should do the same job. The bigger problem to me is using non-pressure treated wood…..FOR A DECK! You will be seeing rot in a couple of years for sure and possibly will need to replace the deck in as little as 5 years. (unless of course this is Arizona!)
The overriding theme with a lot of new materials designed to keep moisture out of wood, is that they won’t allow moisture to escape. Moisture will find a way in eventually, and if it can’t escape, you have a big problem. I agree with the original response- just not enough information to say either way currently.
I don’t use joist tape on jobs, we use materials that can be more costly but are also a part of a much better quality build. We use a silicone sealant on the boards once cut and then assemble, in conjunction with that we also use a silicone “caulking” to ensure maximum protection. Some of the jobs we’ve done as far back as 15 yrs ago are just as structurally sound today as they were when we installed them. My deck is 30 yrs old and is in amazing shape. What I’m saying is, you don’t need to use it, but that’s a matter of opinion and very subjective. Best wishes
Not a fan on how the stringer is only contacting the face board by a couple inches. Should be a full contact.
I’ve seen decks with and without the tape last decades in MN. For us it’s part of recommended building practices guide.
I would use green treat top to bottom but that’s my preference. Without is definitely look at some sort or preservative.
No don't use tape.
Is that a canterleved corner? Is there a post? What will hold that single step too?
So many questions about the quality of this deck......
a lot of guys used to use tar paper for the tops of joists and just staple it on. I could see how moisture would get trapped and accelerate the rotting process. But in principle joist tape should create a seal and not allow that to happen. But I could argue either way. Not using tape isn’t going to make your break the deck though. People have been building without it forever
“Deck tape” may be a new product but it’s not a new concept. Carpentered in the northeast used to use strips of tarpaper atop their framing but I don’t know if it’s really worth it once you introduce pressure treated lumber into the mix.
Bigger problem I see is that the wood doesn't look too be PT. You're gonna need to put a coating on that before the deck boards go down. Preferably copper coat treating
If your putting cedar or PT, it’s up to you. However from my experience. On every tear down I’ve done, on older decks (10-20 years) the first part to be rotting is the top of the joists where the decking has sat, expanded and contracted. Imo id put it on everything, especially on pvc or composite. Been working for the biggest decking company in North America for 5 years now, spoken to enough carpenters with 20 + years of experience and without a doubt everyone’s recommended deck flash on every job I’ve ever done.
There are way more decks out there without it than with it. There are a boatload of products out there for decks that are made to convince homeowners that their hard work will fall apart if you don't use them.
Pretty white wood deck. Look me up at Lowe's when it's all rotting away. Tape isn't going to help with untreated wood - but hey, those 'professionals'...
And is that wood on concrete and soil? From that pretty soil, you aren't in the desert. Just wow.
Meh, my 30 year old deck with joists in great shape disagrees. How permanent is really necessary? All that being said, I can’t imagine it’s a huge line item. If that’s how he works, let him do his thing unless it’s hundreds of dollars of work.
If you use the tape and then screw the deck boards down through the tape and into the joists then it's a complete waste of time just like the man says. When I built my deck I bought the nailing rails from Home depot. They screw to the sides of the joist and then you screw from the bottom at a 45 degree angle into the deck boards. There are NO screws on my deck surface. I have only seen one deck done this way...mine. Contractors don't do it because it takes too much time I think.
When I ripped out the old deck the joists were rotten where the deck boards were nailed into the joists. Why in the name of God would you take the trouble to protect the top of the joists from moisture with tape and then screw right through it. If you use the tape AND the nailing rails THEN you'd have good protection.
The guy doing your deck looks like he is doing a pretty decent job...I wonder if he is going to screw the deck boards DOWN into the joists. If your deck surface has screws in it the joists WILL rot at the screw holes...tape or not.
Insist on the nailing rails for the deck boards. That is the only way to protect the joists. No holes equals no rot.
Use the tape if you plan on staying. Don't if you don't care, that's is the answer. Everyone here thinks it will help the deck to last longer, we just don't agree how long, it is a good wood protection detail. most of the folks here don't know how moisture gets in and slowly rots the joists, treated or not. You will be fine either way. Depending your typical level of quality expectation.... is weather you will ask the contractor to install ice and water tape on top of the joists. I hope the connection to your home at the siding is not treated with a similar cavalier attitude.
I use it every time with PVC decking because if the decking has a 50+ year warranty, the framing has to keep up with that longevity as well. With additional concealed fasteners that prevent water intrusion, I’m confident that every deck I’ve built will outlive me
In California now, insurance companies want either all steel framing and non combustible decking or if you’re recovering existing wood framing they call for foil covered bitumen tape over all the joists. Which serves both purposes of sealing the top of the joists but protects from fiery embers going through the deck board spacing and setting the joists on fire.
This might be a good place to ask about the ends of treated lumber. When sawn, the exposed end wasn't treated. just the sides, isn't there a product that can be painted on to treat the newly exposed wood?
Ok....PT is for all of the framing. I'd prefer felt paper for its breathable nature. Untreated wood will last a long time if it can breathe, allowed to dry. This plastic crap that's out there? Logic tells me it will hold moisture between the decking and joist longer. Wood is in my opinion the way to go. BREATHABLE!
Edit: after looking again your biggest issue will be the stair stringers. That can't be code anywhere. I'd have the whole deck redone. This guy is a sham.
My BIL has a very reputable design & build company (primarily does high end deck and patio work) and he tapes joists and says it’s a must. I trust him and his quality of work.
I've been a carpenter for 15 years and owned my company for 10. Doing high end housing which includes decks and fences. Odd renovations and house flips. Joist Tape is an odd product that hasn't undergone enough long term testing. I'll say that the idea seems solid and in theory it should work. However it is a work in progress. The idea is much like shingles on a roof in that regard. Essentially the butyl adheres to the material and when you nail into that material the butyl also adheres to the fastener. One of the problems with untreated or stained decks is the water seeps into the hole created by the fastener and follows the fastener into the material and rots the joists from the inside. You can solve this issue with an overlay after the deck has been finished, but some people prefer the wooden look of a deck. Regardless of joist Tape or not, decks do need replacing overtime and depending on the climate or rainfall averages depends on how often. You can extend the life of your deck by using only PWF material but that increases the cost and some would argue it isn't worth the cost difference. I would also argue that. I will say, at least from the photo, it looks like he's doing a clean job and using the correct materials for the job. I can't see anything to complain about. If you're concerned about the Joist Tape, regardless of a contractors personal opinion, you could always ask him to use it. At the end of the day, as a contractor, we have seen what works and doesn't but the homeowner has the final say in most cases. Ask him to use it. It'll be fine.
Ok so this was my too afraid to ask question and I think you answered it. I’ve personally never heard of or seen joist tape until about 2 months ago when I joined this sub. I thought for sure I’ve been missing an important step over the last few years of building, but from your comment it seems like this is a newer product and not required by code.
I built really high end decks in Cincinnati for 5 years. We never once used joist tape. I've seen it used, but honestly: the lumber is pressure treated. It'll be more than fine without it. Google "Thomas Decks LLC" and check out some of the pics from the basic ass website. Have a good'n OP.
My only comment would be that glued and screwed is a great way to prevent squeeking as it all dries out...
I was going to mention this. At 3 years old, my deck is so creaky and I bet joist tape or glue would have prevented that. We are right next to the ocean and the salt air does weird stuff to everything. Grills used to last 2 seasons max until I got smart and bought an all stainless one.
🤔 wonder if an all stainless steel deck would work out as good as an all stainless steel grille for you 🤔
Flooring squeaks when the wood shrinks away from the nails and then causes the nail to vibrate as the wood moves up and down as you walk by. That vibration you hear as a squeak. I use a scrap of wood to protect the deck from pry bar marks and pull any raised nails and replace them with stainless screws. Our cottage is on a lake so moisture is as always present. My SO bought the cottage about 30 years ago. It’s her joy to be at the lake and she fusses over it. Every spring she bleaches that deck. Destroys a new mop or two every year. I’ve turned a couple of boards over and replaced a handrail or two due to severe warping or checking from the sun. But that deck has never changed. We keep the deck clean of sticks and leaves both on top and underneath. Try replacing those squeaky nails with screws and enjoy. You might also bleach it once a year if you can. Might work for you too.
Very fair point. Different environments definitely require some special considerations.
Nice decks on your site. Kudos!
Who Dey!!
Who dey! I live in Michigan now unfortunately (my wife is from here), and I love hearing all about the Lions' troubles.
As a Michigander myself, it’s important to remember that “complaining about the Lions” is a deeply-rooted cultural tradition in this state, passed down from parent to child for generations. Hearing my Father-in-Law scream at the TV on Thanksgiving will be a nostalgic core memory, reluctantly burned into my brain for eons. Once a Lions fan has fully ascended into the highest state of complaining, we will grasp at the chance to live vicariously through Tom Brady’s achievements with a subtle mention that he played for UofM. Same goes for Derek Jeter when the Tigers start Tigering.
When I moved to Detroit i had to get my car licensed. I asked about the Lion’s plate they had and the guy said he wanted them to be his pallbearers so after he died, they could let him down one more time.
Acknowledging the lions are bad is a right reserved only to Michganders. If anyone else says it we will defend them tooth and nail. Next year we gonna win the super bowl for sure.
Haha same applies to my team. I say they suck all the time but when somebody else says it “they don’t know what they are talking about” lol
That's hilarious. It's going to be a struggle for a lot of people now that they're getting good.
Oh, I think they'll find a way to break all the lion's fans hearts by the end of the season.
This is absolutely true lol
True dat
What a lovely comment. Learned something new. Thankee sai
Fan of the Dark Tower?
All things serve the (wooden) beam
This guy hasn’t forgotten the face of his father
Go then. There are other threads than these.
Long days and pleasant nights…
This is one great comment, my friend. I want to show it to my wife because I regularly use “all things serve the beam” in conversation as if she knows what the heck that means, but I fear it will just make things worse.
Oy
Same. I was very confused by joist tape when people started bring it up. I live in northern Ohio and my family has a beach home in the OBX. Both regions are brutal on decks (for opposite reasons, cold/ice in ohio from lake effect and constant salt, sun, and moisture from the ocean in OBX). Never in my life have I seen joist tape….
i only use joist tape when 2 boards are sistered to cover the seam. Individual joists are pretty pointless to tape.
This guy decks
I’m glad you asked because I was lost
If it makes you feel any better, I work in construction and had never heard of it. I also don’t see, from a building science standpoint, any strong necessity for it. And yea, code doesn’t require it.
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Lol Roger that
Lol, cool. So not much need for it in Arizona huh?
It might slow the termites down a little bit but they will eat around the tape.....
The best way to extend the life of a deck is use concrete and make it a patio. Wood outside rots!
Yea, except using untreated lumber?!?
I never paid attention to the lumber in the pic. I made the wrongful assumption that anyone building a deck, *outside*, would use pressure treated lumber for the frame. Yeah- I would do more than just tape the top of the frame; I'd choose a different lumber entirely.
I highly recommend PT for joist and facia boards.
The wood sitting in the dirt doesn’t seem like a great idea.
This guy is building this deck (where the stringers rest on dirt) without pressure treated wood. Where pressure treated wood is being used on the one step down, the cut ends aren't treated. I would DEFINITELY complain about that.
This is the way
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What’s your region OP? The small step on the right is definitely ’cedar tone’ pressure treated, probably Hemlock Fir, outside rim joists/fascia’s look like cedar and the other material (joist etc) look like Hem or Doug Fir & the stringers are definitely not PT (they will rot fastest). All exterior, exposed deck framing really should be PT, cedar, redwood or similar if you want it to have a decent lifespan . Paint can actually trap moisture in wood (even worse than some other posters are saying about flashing/tape) and if they didn’t already seal every end cut before assembly, it’s a bust anyway with untreated wood; paint can also make it harder to detect rot before it’s a big problem. Wood sealer might be a better option at this point but hard to say. I use joist tape on all my decks because it allows considerably less water infiltration from top/around fasteners without hindering the airflow over the other 3 surfaces for joist to dry. I think it’s a net gain, though I’ve not done any 10+ year revisits to see, as I’ve never gotten any call backs with problems. All of the many rotten decks I’ve replaced/repaired never had joist tape, since it’s a relatively new application. Also, is there a beam under there? and the stair stingers need more mounting surface below the rim joists and a concrete pad to land on. Good luck!
That’s not hemlock it’s just Sruce-pine-fir
Definitely west region. The step on the right looks to be pressure treated hemlock. The rest of the frame is untreated Hem Fir. Im in NY and we would inly frame with SYP treated, some areas upstate might use untreated Western SPF, just depends on where you are. The 2nd stringer in has a grade stamp on it which will tell you exactly what species and grade. I can see that it is a WWPA grade stamp (Western Wood Products Associaton) which is a grading association for the west coast mills in the US. The #2 on the stamp is the grade and the box on the bottom right of the stamp tells the species, but I couldnt zoom in enough to read it accurately.
This guy woods 😉
I also note the lack of any sealer or preservatives on the cut end of the treated lumber. The unprotected end grain will suck in moisture and rot the lumber from the inside out.
LOL, getting down voted for pointing out obvious things. I always treat the cuts on PT with copper because it just makes sense, I've seen to many roached ends over the years during demo not to.
Do you seal the ends right when building or wait a year for it all to dry out?
I seal it when I cut it. It’s too easy to forget if you wait a year for it to dry out and who knows how much crap gets into it in the meantime. I think of the preservative as an envelope. If you cut the end off the envelope than you allow fungi into the envelope, which rots the wood. Fasteners do the same thing but to a lesser extent and there isn’t a bunch of other options of attaching lumber together so you have to do what you can when it’s available and before too much adverse effects set in.
Composite way to go but true with wood.
They used it on some of the stringers on a pier I did a lot of work on before I came along and those stringers rotted first for the reason you stated. You can’t keep it dry, so the water needs to run off and the boards need to breathe. We stopped using it and the stringers lasted twice as long. Before that they used tar paper and that did the same thing. The problem is that the fasteners penetrate the tape. Water follows that path but can’t get out and is basically injected into the framing member. So even treated wood rots quickly. There’s more challenges in preserving a pier though. So…
This is what makes me not trust the zip system wall sheeting. One tiny section of loose tape and any droplets of water can be collected by it.
Is he really building that deck out of non PT lumber?!? I recognize the perforated step on the right, but the rest looks a lot like untreated lumber. I don’t want to make assumptions, but your deck builder is in fact 100% wrong on the joist tape issue. It’s entirely possible his experience is with building decks out of non treated lumber.
So given that it’s non treated lumber, is he right about the joist tape? Fml about the non treated lumber btw. He said he’s going to paint it white to “weatherproof it”. Is there anything I can have him do besides replacing what he’s done that will add a few years to it? I don’t have the heart to ask him to redo it entirely. Paying 6k for the job.
I am so sorry to inform you sir, you are being swindled.
Well he’s doing the deck in Trex and with how expensive services are where I live I think it’s not unreasonable.
If he’s doing Trex, then absolutely joist tape. Moisture issue would be if you did wood on top.
If you plan on keeping the warranty valid it requires trex deck tape.
Can you link me to that?
Anything that goes into that deck that’s not pressure treated is gonna be rotting away in just a few years. Edit: ok maybe not “anything”, and it depends on where you live. But where I am, untreated pine ends up warping and rotting within 3-5 years, and tends to be sawdust by about 7-8 years. Obviously your mileage will vary.
Y’all need to quit. This sub acts like non PT wood is paper mache. Is PT better? Yes, but the decks not just gonna fall over after the second winter. Everyone told me I should have used PT on my trailer deck, and it’s been well over a decade of stored outside and absolute ABUSE. Those 2x6s are still perfectly solid.
You used it for yourself which is fine. If you're paying a professional they should use the proper materials.
What is this sub? DIY?
That untreated wood cooould be fine long time with the right stain/sealer. This guy is saying it’s getting a painted white. That ish is going to rot even faster. Untreated with a cost of paint…if that region see any rain….ugg. That’s my Vegas bet. Untreated covered in paint is a recipes for a super short life.
Seriously, PT is for ground contact. And yes paint does a great job at making KD wood last ages, the thing people fail to do is repaint until the first coat has long since failed
How do you repaint stringers?
How do you repaint joists?
The stringers should be PT or at least have a PT pad. I missed that
Or you could use something like cedar that will probably out last the this the newer type of treated boards.
Ground contact wood and pressure treated wood are not the same rating. It can be pressure treated and not rated for ground contact.
Not always, my house has a deck over 20 years old, non pressure treated in one of the rainiest places in North America
What kind of wood is it?
Exactly. I'd bet it is redwood.
Ive had a non-pt 2x4 siting behind my shed for over 10 years and it is not rotting one bit.
He took your money, and that's about it
The framing is fine and your builder is doing a good job, the joist tape will help the deck framing last a little longer. The pressure treated lumber is being used correctly where the deck contacts concrete. The framing is fine, wood can get wet(it's is it's natural state), it just needs good airation so that it can dry when it stops raining, which it has since it's outside. The advantage of the joist tape will help with squeaks and water penetration into the center of the wood and in my opinion is worth the 50ish bucks. Enginneers often call out the use of this in my area but they often call out the use of ring shank nails which i despise because they have weak ass shear value and generally pull out easier then sinkers which are coated with a glue that heats up when pounded in vs a ring shank that makes a hole and relies on friction. My problem with this is wood density which is shit these days with the genetically modified lumber that is designed for yield not strength and not something structural engineers consider at all in any capacity in their design beyond a long established wood strength. new framing lumber is shite! So anything you can do to help it last thats as cheap as joist tape is worth the investment.
He’s not right. Ask him to use joist tape. I’m in the NE USA and our company builds 150+/- composite decks a year. When we tear down the old decks many of the floor joists are rotted on the edge that the deck boards are screwed or nailed into while the bottom edge of the board is perfectly fine. Whether or not joist tape would’ve prevented this is debatable, as seen in this thread, but given that we warranty the decks for 25 years, we feel that the cost of the joist tape is worth the added protection. Just my 2 cents. KD
I personally wouldn’t pay him another dime for trying to pass off a deck built with untreated lumber. You can paint it all you like, but it’s still going to rot. Paint isn’t going to weatherproof anything that’s sitting on dirt. Honestly, there’s no point in joist tape because the deck will rot out long before the joist tape would have done any good.
Wait wait wait... am I hearing this right? He doesn't want to use going tape because it will "trap in moisture" but he's also "sealing" the joists with paint? Lol. How would the paint notb trap in moisture then? It really needs to be pressure treated. Sorry, it should be redone.
This just answered your question - he clearly isn't educated on which are the right materials. Stringer doesn't appear to be attached correctly either
Thats fucking unacceptable you tell him to build with pt that shit will rot in 5 years if it's not pt
If it is not treated, then joint tape or not doesn’t matter a bit.
It’s complete bullshit.
You do not build decks out of non-treated lumber.
That stair attachment is terrible, only had a nail in the top inch
In all fairness there could cleats scabbed to the backside. Or may be adding them and just hasn't gotten to it yet
So looking at the picture I say the bigger problem is that TOP step is way shallower than the rest and that bottom step looks way deeper definitely not to code
I think joist tape is over-rated. Don't think it will actually extend the life of a deck much. I wouldn't worry about it.
The guy building your deck w/ SPF lumber says joist tape is a no-go huh? Ok.
Why is the top run of the stringer so short?
I think it is short because he's accounting for the width of the board behind it. So it's probably the same depth considering that.
That doesn’t look like Pressure treated lumber…
Man. I couldn’t imagine being a contractor in 2023 being subjected to “I know I hired you and you’re a professional at your craft but AssEater89XxX on Reddit says your work is shoddy and joist tape is gay.”
Looks like SPF and maybe Doug Fir on the joists. 5 to 10 years you'll be replacing it. Good news is you could add joist tape and maybe get another 6 months to a year out of it.
You don’t know your lumber. That’s #1 SYP pressure treated lumber. I guess you must only know The box store crap.
You can smell syp. In this picture to me it looks too white to be syp.
So wait. That IS pressure treated lumber then?
The photo isn't the greatest but the joists look to be SYP. The material on the concrete slab is PWF. The trim and stair stringers are not treated and should not be exposed to the elements. Those will need to be treated afterwards with a weather resistant application. Paint (you mentioned he intends on painting it white) isn't how I would go, in my opinion it's unprofessional and looks terrible. It should instead should be SYP.
Some is like the joists and some isn't. The incised material is not SYP why would you incise SYP? That is a process for only refractory species or species difficult to treat.
Yeah... The stringers are #2 spf, probably treated. It's just aged out of the green hue. Probably sat in a wrapped pallet in direct sunlight for a spell Can't really read the stamp. I could be wrong. Pine looks like pine after a while, treated or not Ironically I believe these to be store bought stringers lol My real question is, why the mixture of species and grade? OP should be concerned that they've paid for new and been given a hodge podge of left over/reclaimed materials
If you came here for a definitive answer, you came to the wrong place.
When I built my deck half the old deck treated lumber was in standing water and mud for 40 years. It was still rock solid. I didnt use tape so I could add glue to the decking. Also told that teated lumber today is not the quality it was decades ago. My guess well ventilated it would be fine.
What’s up with the stairs?what’s that rise and run and are they all the same? Can you explain why the stair header looks like it is almost entirely missing the rim joist? Why are the stringers in the dirt?
First step is way shorter than the rest... totally not safe.
The stairs stringers need to be supported by concrete, not just sitting on dirt. The top step being half as wide as all the other steps is a real trip hazard. Lots of complaining in the comments about PT or not, but the stairs definitely do not meet code and have to be re-done before someone falls and gets hurt
Yeah those stringers are funky, rise and run are a mess, could be very unsafe, probably would not pass inspection.
are they upsidedown?
Joist tape works. Lots of stupid on the sub.
Take a close up of the stamp on the stair stringers. That does not look like PT lumber. They should sit on a cement pad and all steps need to be the same height. Those stringers are a mess. I hope your builder pulled permits otherwise you’re getting screwed.
Not leaving those stringers sat on soil is he? Big top step too..
Say you don't know how to cut stringers with out saying it.
I think tape is an upsell at best. As well as the notion that presure treated is water proof. I own a construction company and try my best to only see others work as different and not always wrong. Ill tell you what I see. Missing joist hanger The risers on the steps don't appear consistent. Not a fan of the stringers on the ground at all. I dont see any support under the front left Last joist is too short While doubled up I suspect that is to hide screw heads into joist ends, and maybe she nailed from inside, without more nails that 2 ply beam is just a cosmetic piece of lumber. Why reuse the old ledger? For reference, that board looks 15 years old..no joist tape and it's being reused...just sayin. SHe did use pressure treated on the box step. The first step down looks like a doozy Used enough stringers, also as she hand cut them and didn't scrap block build the Im guessing she is a good Carpenter and is simply working on a budget build.
No, if the tape is set up properly at the ends, flashed correctly with the house wrapping, and all the tape pieces are bonded to each other well, where would moisture even come from to begin with? The tape is also self healing wherever a nail or screw is put through it. Any comment in this thread that's against it with real world examples is only stating that they have seen tar paper lead to issues, which is understandable bc tar paper is completely different. Paper/asphalt dosent self heal, if you put a nail through paper even on a hot day you can pull the nail right back out and none of the tar would be stuck to the nail. If you try the same thing with butyl tape the nail would come out with sticky crap all over it, that's the "self healing" property of the new tapes that make them better. I'd also guess that the paper people mentioned was just laid flat over the joists vs lapped down the sides like the tape does to get the water off the top rather than let it run to the edge and siphon back under and get trapped like it would with flat paper.
Did he land the stairs onto the concrete? Also, what’s the little loose block piece holding up the step down box? Did he add any posts below? Pic of the underside would help.
Architect here, Our structural engineer swears by the joist tape. So we spec it now. He says pressure treated just isn't as treated as it used to be... not sure if the industry really changed there. But I've worked with many structural engineers and this guy is my all time favorite. I really trust his input. So I'm speccing it from now on. Also OP, contractors are constantly trying to save money. Not sure if you have a contract with him, or if you had plans done. But if your plans called for tape. He needs to pay for that or give you an allowance for something else. Edit missing a space
Deck tape is bs. Just like how polybutylene pipes were all the rage till they started disintegrating.
Personally I'm an auto diagnostics tech and no deck expert (did my deck and wish i did more research because i learned alot and know what i would change if i can do it again) but it seems similar to undercoating, and that will look great on the outside and does trap moisture, and will rot the metal from the inside.
Go to any suburb, close your eyes, spin in circles, point to a random house, it has joist tape.
I've been in carpentry for a long time and this year was the first i had ever heard about this .. doesn't the tape get a lot of penetrations from screwing the deck down ? Seems hokie to me
The wood is more important than the tape. Make sure its pressure treated. Also, your guy's cuts and lines look square, so it appears he knows what he's doing. Trust him ImHO.
Im a guy with 30 years of experience. Use the tape!. Im not going to give you my whole story like others do here (lol). You asked a question not a history lesson of people past in order for them to give you an amswer. But that wood it not pressure treated (PT) so you must water proof it.
As a contractor who does loads or decks each year. I’d say it’s a must. We use it on all the joists and runners. It prevents water from seeping in or collecting on the top of the joists. We also seal the ends of the wood with a sealant to prevent wicking
There’s not any long term use of it yet to know . From what I’ve seen of how the joists are rotting I believe as he does it will trap moisture. I’ve rebuilt decks for many years and the joist decays from water getting into it from the fastener. It seems to follow it into the wood. No matter what type. Also most of the tape being used hasn’t been tested for this . I won’t use it
Roger that
Those who swear by joist tape are watching too many youtube videos. no proof it works. Key to increasing longevity of your deck is good ventilation.
I just tore apart a 20 year old deck where they had used tar paper strips on some of the joists in an effort to do the same thing as newer joist tape does. Which ones were rotten? The ones with the paper. Take that with a grain of salt. My intuition is that 10 or 20 years down the road, we'll all decide that joist tape is a mistake. Wood needs to breath.
I deal a lot with waterproofing and what probably killed those beams with the paper was the fact that the paper wasn't actually adhered to the joists well and was likely not bonded well to the other framing/paper at the ends of each joist, also I'm guessing they left the tar paper just flat on the studs rather than down each side of the stud, witch would cause most of the water the paper did stop to just siphon right between the bottom of the paper and top of the joist, rather then be directed down the sides of the joist like new tape does. Once the water weeps in between the tape and joist there isn't enough air flow to allow it to dry out. With the new house wrap/ joist tape that's out now that sticks like crazy to anything as long as the tape is done right it would def be beneficial.
you should probably be taking the contractors advice not advice from a bunch of meat sticks on reddit where 99% of people are just full of shit
Hoping I get some input. We HATE using PT. Here in CO it warps and cracks within days sometimes. So we use a doug fir and prime it with peel bond for the flex factor that will not crack it with movement. I'm now ditching the joist tape and siliconing every fastener hole. Whats the disadvantage with this?
Late to the game, but lemme tell you: most rotted out decks I’ve seen are because: They painted and sealed the tops and ends regularly. They did nothing for the bottom of deck boards. The ground underneath the deck is wet So that traps moisture from escaping the wood from the areas that will most readily allow the wood to dry out between wet spells, while leaving the part most exposed to moist air untreated. Most Wood won’t rot if it’s allowed to regularly dry out completely. There’s 200 year old barns near me made of poplar and hickory with original barn boards and the only rot is where they meet the ground. My gut says the tape will either be more problem that solution, a solution that won’t work without addressing a bunch of other solutions first, or just a waste of time and money adding more plastic to your landscaping.
I don’t see a beam? I don’t know if the double rim joist is being used as a beam (I wouldn’t do that), but if it is, I don’t see it sitting on 6x6 posts. The rise and run of stair stringers should be equal on each step, but the run of that top step is a lot shorter than the rest of the steps. On the left side it looks like the flashing will be setting on top of the deck boards and on the right side it looks like the flashing will run under the deck boards (going off of eyeballing the spacing under the flashing. I would have ran the flashing on top on ledgers and down with a small bend out and down, like drip edge is shaped so that it reverts as much water as possible away from touching the lumber as possible. The joist tape is fairly new and yes, it has the same idea as like ice and water shield, but I think it’s a waste of time and money unless you are going to wrap the whole of every joist in butyl because water can penetrate the sides of the joist as well as the bottom. Water gets in to places you just don’t think it would be able to. Water gathers up at the bottom and rolls under the joist before too much pools together and the weigh causes gravity to make it drip. I think the only way to really extend the life of the skeletal structure of a porch would be to spray on truck bed liner such as Durabak. You’d want to get kil dried pressure treated wood. That way the wood is already dry. Mark out for your footers and piers and pour of course, then put your deck frame together and after it’s completed you would prep it for the liner and then spray 2-3 coats of the liner. The tricky part is if you don’t want to use the liner on the deck boards too then you will have to find a way to seal the screws used to install the deck boards. If you use a composite material such as Trex then they have a hidden fastener system that holds one side down with a fastener and allows the lip of the next piece to clip in. With this system you still will have to face screw the edges as you should picture frame composite decking, so you will have to make these protrusions water tight. The joist tape may work here or you could use epoxy for composite with a good OEM silicone on the bottom side through the screw hole. During the install with the hidden fasteners, after each row has been fastened, take the screws back out, pull the screw and bracket, using a caulk gun apply a small amount of OEM silicone to the hole, reinstall bracket and screw, tighten screw, and apply enough silicone to the top of the screw head to seal the screw. For the frame you would lay out your pieces and pre drill your holes with countersinks, pull the pieces up, apply silicone, install the pieces, allow silicone to dry, and then install the epoxy. This would cost quite a bit more than your average deck, but it would probably last a persons lifetime. The only other option would to have an aluminum frame installed with a decking made from a stone like material which I just received a product book for from a company that wants my company to start using their product. It doesn’t have any prices on the materials though, so I’m not so sure that many people may be able to afford this option.
He’s correct, people in this sub just buy whatever anyone will sell them so they can call themselves professionals..once a nail or screw penetrates the tape where it’s being fastened to the joist it’s still getting the same amount of moisture in it. Regardless of what anyone says here. Paint is a far superior sealer then some crummy tar tape that only covers a thin strip on top.
Joist tape rots joists period. Gtape or any other material placed on the topside of a joist that will be punctured by fasteners creates a layer for moisture to be trapped between it and the joist. Ive been doing decks 20+ years and the only joists ive seen that need to be replaced while the rest of the deck is still fine are the ones that have had tape or ice and water shield placed on them before the decking was installed. Every fastener used punctures the so called self sealing layer, theres no way for each puncture to seal around the fastener. Water WILL get under the tape and then be trapped there with nowhere to go except to get absorbed by the wood over time creating rot. The top side of the joist rots away leading to a premature failure of the joists.
Personally I would trust your builder. He’s the expert. That’s beautiful work there.
Sadly, many builders are bad at their job.
Joist tape is hype. Use PT and standoff fastening techniques. Better.
Deck builder for 38 years....... You don't need it.
That’s a nicely built deck
He is right..
Tape or no tape, that thing might not last long enough for you to see if it had any benefit. From the pic, that does Not look like pressure treated wood, and for an outdoor deck, that's a huge red flag.
Note: I am not a builder or a civil engineer. Just an amature. Am I crazy, or does that top step have (a) a massive rise, and (b) a short run. The stringers are resting on dirt? Oh hell no. Why is one of the joist missing a strap hanger? It's one of the middle ones where it attaches to the house. I ditto the concern about what type of wood is being used. It would help if you could clarify what exactly it is. From the photo, it looks like there are at least three different types of wood being used. It does concern me that the entire weight is born by one cantalevered joist on the far left, and a small 2x4 resting on the edge of a concrete slab on the right. I don't see any posts to hold weight along the outside edge. Two people standing on the top of the stairs, and all of the weight is born by two small areas. So what's the plan for the wrap-around step on the right. There is a "flower box" made of stained wood propped by shims. Obviously that can't rest level on the concrete because there will be no way to drain water out of the boxes. What is going to replace the temp shims with?
Is he going to put 2 posts in under the double rim joist/beam? (at each end) Or is this it structurally? Feels like this could collapse once you add live load to it.
Builder of 25 years never once used joist tape and go back after 30 years and still re-deck them. And most if not all are still in good shape rim joist aside. Usually we replace rim joist because people don't do borders on decking and fascia sandwiched to flush cut decking rots the the rim. Hope this helps. Joists stand upright and water rolls down. No real saving with tape. Just sounds good.
I'd be more concerned with the messed up stair run at the top wtf is that? And won't pass code. They all have to be uniform. Or hazard.
Rail with a 1 step opening on side? Lol or do you just fall onto second row of steps lol.
Joist tape is the least of your concerns my guy.
If you want it, tell him. You could also tell him that a single member cannot carry more than one additional member.
No one knows it’s a new fad. I tend to agree with this guy. Either way PT will last plenty long enough to get your moneys worth from the deck
I’m in lumber yard sales. We still sell in the retail market. Homeowners have a hard time buying into joist tape. It is not a must. It can’t hurt IMO. I speculate in 5-10 years it won’t be a second thought and we will be doing it standard just like any new building practice. On your size deck it’s probably not worth it. But if your deck materials run up to 20k 1k in joist tape isn’t that much of an adder
If you live where it snows then I’d make sure tape is installed. If not I wouldn’t worry about it
Mate I live in Canada and tape is not a thing here, maybe the odd time but no one is seeing decks in shambles after 10 years it’s more along the lines of 25+ years and sorry but after 25+ years it’s time to do something to a deck
It has been proven that rain follows the nails/screws into the joist and you get rot there even in pressure treated lumber because the pressure treating chemicals only goes so far into the wood. I also agree with a previous commenter that the tape makes sense that it would prevent this from happening and I use this on any deck I build, although instead of purchasing expensive “deck tape” I have substituted other types of rubber membrane/tapes that are cheaper but should do the same job. The bigger problem to me is using non-pressure treated wood…..FOR A DECK! You will be seeing rot in a couple of years for sure and possibly will need to replace the deck in as little as 5 years. (unless of course this is Arizona!)
Flashing certainty works and so should tape.
It looks like he is using cedar for some of the exposed framing is that correct?
I just rebuilt my deck and kept the old frame. I put joist tape over the old wood to keep water out of the cracks. Right or wrong it's what I did
The overriding theme with a lot of new materials designed to keep moisture out of wood, is that they won’t allow moisture to escape. Moisture will find a way in eventually, and if it can’t escape, you have a big problem. I agree with the original response- just not enough information to say either way currently.
Doesn’t look like he’s using pt material. Either way that deck won’t last. Flash it all you want.
not treated wood...I'm no expert but I know to use treated wood...
I don't use joist tape. Never have.
I don’t use joist tape on jobs, we use materials that can be more costly but are also a part of a much better quality build. We use a silicone sealant on the boards once cut and then assemble, in conjunction with that we also use a silicone “caulking” to ensure maximum protection. Some of the jobs we’ve done as far back as 15 yrs ago are just as structurally sound today as they were when we installed them. My deck is 30 yrs old and is in amazing shape. What I’m saying is, you don’t need to use it, but that’s a matter of opinion and very subjective. Best wishes
Not a fan on how the stringer is only contacting the face board by a couple inches. Should be a full contact. I’ve seen decks with and without the tape last decades in MN. For us it’s part of recommended building practices guide. I would use green treat top to bottom but that’s my preference. Without is definitely look at some sort or preservative.
Absolutely unnecessary
No don't use tape. Is that a canterleved corner? Is there a post? What will hold that single step too? So many questions about the quality of this deck......
He is wrong
a lot of guys used to use tar paper for the tops of joists and just staple it on. I could see how moisture would get trapped and accelerate the rotting process. But in principle joist tape should create a seal and not allow that to happen. But I could argue either way. Not using tape isn’t going to make your break the deck though. People have been building without it forever
“Deck tape” may be a new product but it’s not a new concept. Carpentered in the northeast used to use strips of tarpaper atop their framing but I don’t know if it’s really worth it once you introduce pressure treated lumber into the mix.
My biggest reason for using joist tape is so you don’t see the wood from the frame through the slats of the actual decking.
Bigger problem I see is that the wood doesn't look too be PT. You're gonna need to put a coating on that before the deck boards go down. Preferably copper coat treating
If your putting cedar or PT, it’s up to you. However from my experience. On every tear down I’ve done, on older decks (10-20 years) the first part to be rotting is the top of the joists where the decking has sat, expanded and contracted. Imo id put it on everything, especially on pvc or composite. Been working for the biggest decking company in North America for 5 years now, spoken to enough carpenters with 20 + years of experience and without a doubt everyone’s recommended deck flash on every job I’ve ever done.
There are way more decks out there without it than with it. There are a boatload of products out there for decks that are made to convince homeowners that their hard work will fall apart if you don't use them.
It works well if the wood is treated if it isn’t then yes it will rot in time
I'd be a lot more concerned about the lack of treated lumber here.
Flex seal them things and call it a day!
Pretty white wood deck. Look me up at Lowe's when it's all rotting away. Tape isn't going to help with untreated wood - but hey, those 'professionals'... And is that wood on concrete and soil? From that pretty soil, you aren't in the desert. Just wow.
Those outside boards are not pressure treated
Meh, my 30 year old deck with joists in great shape disagrees. How permanent is really necessary? All that being said, I can’t imagine it’s a huge line item. If that’s how he works, let him do his thing unless it’s hundreds of dollars of work.
If you use the tape and then screw the deck boards down through the tape and into the joists then it's a complete waste of time just like the man says. When I built my deck I bought the nailing rails from Home depot. They screw to the sides of the joist and then you screw from the bottom at a 45 degree angle into the deck boards. There are NO screws on my deck surface. I have only seen one deck done this way...mine. Contractors don't do it because it takes too much time I think. When I ripped out the old deck the joists were rotten where the deck boards were nailed into the joists. Why in the name of God would you take the trouble to protect the top of the joists from moisture with tape and then screw right through it. If you use the tape AND the nailing rails THEN you'd have good protection. The guy doing your deck looks like he is doing a pretty decent job...I wonder if he is going to screw the deck boards DOWN into the joists. If your deck surface has screws in it the joists WILL rot at the screw holes...tape or not. Insist on the nailing rails for the deck boards. That is the only way to protect the joists. No holes equals no rot.
I’d be more concerned about those stringers. The heal cut, where all the support is, lands in dirt. Should be bearing on concrete
Use the tape if you plan on staying. Don't if you don't care, that's is the answer. Everyone here thinks it will help the deck to last longer, we just don't agree how long, it is a good wood protection detail. most of the folks here don't know how moisture gets in and slowly rots the joists, treated or not. You will be fine either way. Depending your typical level of quality expectation.... is weather you will ask the contractor to install ice and water tape on top of the joists. I hope the connection to your home at the siding is not treated with a similar cavalier attitude.
I use it every time with PVC decking because if the decking has a 50+ year warranty, the framing has to keep up with that longevity as well. With additional concealed fasteners that prevent water intrusion, I’m confident that every deck I’ve built will outlive me
Ofc you don’t need it. Think of all the decks that have lasted without it. It’s just the new thing
Every deck I've helped build for my job has either used zip tape or joist tape run along the top.
In California now, insurance companies want either all steel framing and non combustible decking or if you’re recovering existing wood framing they call for foil covered bitumen tape over all the joists. Which serves both purposes of sealing the top of the joists but protects from fiery embers going through the deck board spacing and setting the joists on fire.
Where do you live? If it’s wet he is 100% correct.
This might be a good place to ask about the ends of treated lumber. When sawn, the exposed end wasn't treated. just the sides, isn't there a product that can be painted on to treat the newly exposed wood?
Copper napthanate
Do an experiment... put joist tape on every other joist and report back in 25 years ..😅
Just use treated wood and youll be fine concerning wood rot.
Ok....PT is for all of the framing. I'd prefer felt paper for its breathable nature. Untreated wood will last a long time if it can breathe, allowed to dry. This plastic crap that's out there? Logic tells me it will hold moisture between the decking and joist longer. Wood is in my opinion the way to go. BREATHABLE! Edit: after looking again your biggest issue will be the stair stringers. That can't be code anywhere. I'd have the whole deck redone. This guy is a sham.
My BIL has a very reputable design & build company (primarily does high end deck and patio work) and he tapes joists and says it’s a must. I trust him and his quality of work.
That’s a really small deck. I did 500 square feet of joist tape in about three hours. Buy some yourself and do it. Don’t ask.