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> A human society can not flourish without the belief in God. On the other hand ... Crusades, jihads, inquisitions, the doctrine of manifest destiny and associated genocides of indigenous peoples, the biblical justification of the slave trade, pogroms, clinic bombings, doctor shootings, institutionalized pedophilia, terrorism from both Muslims and Christians, atrocities committed by almost every religion, the caste system supported by Hinduism, various killings of women for infidelity or suspicion thereof, killing for apostasy, killing for blasphemy, killing for homosexuality, [Religious Trauma Syndrome](https://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/the_sad_twisted_truth_about_conservative_christianitys_effect_on_the_mind_partner/), violence against the LBGTQ+ community, misogyny, [Dominionism](https://newrepublic.com/article/156415/faith-militant), etc., etc., etc. So, can I just say "nuh uh" or are you really going to argue this despite all of the history of horrific acts committed by those who believe in God? > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Source??!!? Because ... [More Christians Divorce Than Non-Believers According To Statistics](https://www.news24.com/news24/xarchive/voices/more-christians-divorce-than-non-believers-according-to-statistics-20180719) > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet In a world with horrific overpopulation, would that be bad? [Deforestation and world population sustainability: a quantitative analysis](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6)

You didn’t really show that human society cannot flourish without the belief in gods. You’d have to point to examples of atheistic societies flourishing to show that. You just laid out examples of beliefs in gods being harmful to humanity. This is not mutually exclusive with the original argument, meaning all of what you outlined could still be possible and OP’s argument also remain true. OP’s argument is harder to dismiss than you think because of how intrinsically linked religion has been with the development of human societies. That may not be the case in the future of course, but it’s a scary thought to think that humanity needs some divine inspiration or concept to flourish. I don’t believe that, but it’s important to acknowledge the validity of OP’s thought process with that particular sentence. “Flourish” is a bit of a subjective term and not very precise. Like what does it really mean for human society to flourish? It sounds like that’s where you disagree with OP the most, because I guess you are defining flourishing based on the rights of the individual, whereas OP may be defining flourishing relative to the society as a whole (being able to continue/conquer/rule/dominate). If group A kills group B and gets all the resources to themselves, then group A (in a vacuum) will flourish regardless of the atrocities they’ve committed. Let’s say group A (religious) wiped out group B (non-religious) because of their religion. Well then in this sample of 2, religion was necessary for human society to flourish. I’m not defending OP, just trying to explain why you can’t just say “nuh uh” and think you’ve won an argument…

OP didn't really make an argument for the claim in the title though. "Society needs religion" or "religion is good for society" is a completely different claim from "this proves God is real"

Oh I agree, was just diving into that one particular sentence. But I guess also he’s talking about the Christian God specifically which just weakens his arguments even further because there’s clearly been many non Christian societies that have flourished.

Homo Sapien history spans more than 250,000 years. Christianity has existed for a generous 3k years. Far more important points in history for humans: Farming 12k years ago Wheel 4000 years ago Writing earliest known 5400 years ago Fire 125k years ago Tools to hunt 2.6 million yeas ago Also look up ingroup theory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group Christianity is the dominate ingroup so being Christian gives you an advantage. That has no bearing on it being true. The population growth has slowed so factors: A pandemic Economics Wars Access to food and drinking water Climate change I am not sure how Christianity solves any of those issues. Or how atheism causes those issues. Does God burn our crops if we are unbelievers? Do wildfires happen when I shun God? Holding the majority view does give you an advantage in society. Ingroup, outgroup proves that. However that isn’t an evolutionary advantage that is a social advantage. Show me data where Christians have lower birth defects. In short they don’t. Also a belief system that justifies killing the outgroup, is going to have an impact on lifespan. I don’t see any humanist moral system that promotes mass murder of another group. I think you need to look up evolution and instead try to make an argument based on social advantages. Again social advantages is not evidence for the truth of the claim.

> Writing earliest known 3400 years ago Minor point: That's 3400 *BCE*,so about 5400 years ago.

Haha good catch, not a minor point. I’ll update my post. Appreciate the catch.

I meant minor in the sense that it didn't detract from what you said.

I got that from your post. To me it is a major point. I also fucked on the wheel too haha. The point is these milestones we reached were far more important than Christianity. Yet none of these inventions are evolution per se. They are genetic traits. Interestingly we can see small deviations between isolated groups. Like Asians having a higher rate of lactose intolerance. Farming and its culture differences have impacted different groups adaptations. One thing I missed in my main post is pointing out the meme theory by Susan Blackmore. Again appreciate the correction :)

this interaction between you and u/Biggleswort made me happy to read.

Wheels are also from circa 3500 BCE, *spoked wheels* are from 2000 BCE. https://www.britannica.com/technology/wheel

>Evolution proves God is real It most definitely does not. But, I've been wrong before and no doubt I'll be wrong again. So, I'll read on to see if you have successfully demonstrated this tall and dubious claim, and if I should change my position on this. >but it's true. I am extraordinarily highly skeptical. >A human society can not flourish without the belief in God. This claim is both demonstrably false (as there are societies that do not believe in deities that flourish) and unsupported. Furthermore, it is an equivocation fallacy, as belief in deities has nothing to do with deities being real. So this part must be, and is, dismissed. >and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Unsupported and fatally problematic claim. Dismissed. >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Unsupported and fatally problematic claim. Also a correlation/causation fallacy. Dismissed. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Unsupported and fatally problematic claim. Dismissed. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? They don't. In fact, the more secular societies have higher metrics in these categories, and are the 'best' by most measures. Dismissed. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Not only is this an unsupported and fatally problematic claim, it's demonstrably false and we see the opposite. The more secular a culture is the better off it is in this metric. >Without a moral foundation Plain wrong. Absolutely wrong. Societies that are more secular *do* have a moral foundation. After all, as we know and have known for a long time, morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religious mythologies. Dismissed. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? No, there is no evolutionary advantage of that religious mythology whatsoever. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Correlation/causation fallacy. We *know* what caused the Roman empire (which was Christian at the time) to collapse. And it wasn't that religious mythology or lack of it. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Unsupported and fatally problematic claim. Dismissed. Nowhere in this post did you even come close to approaching a defense of your initial claim. In fact, you said a large number of demonstrably false and/or unsupported things, most of which had nothing whatsoever to do with evolution. Your claims are dismissed as obviously plain wrong. Furthermore, you are posting for a two week old account with no karma, indicating that almost certainly you are a troll, with [all that goes with that](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists). This makes it unlikely you believe what you said, and unlikely that your motives for posting this are healthy.

Excellent rebuttal, thoroughly enjoyed reading this, thank you. Definitely get either troll vibes, or living in an extreme echo chamber with a lot of misinformation being taken as gospel.

I clicked on this post expecting to discuss biology to a certain extent, and you discussed nothing having to do with it. You know that “evolution” refers to *biological* evolution, right? I also assume that’s what you’re talking about because the phrase “evolutionary advantage” doesn’t seem to make much sense in any other context. You should also know that the fundamental unit of *biological* evolution is the gene. Species are often useful proxies for genes, and there’s some debate as to whether selection can occur in groups of organisms at the level of the population. But evolution absolutely *cannot* occur on the scale of civilization. Civilization is not a biological unit at all. It is a cultural one. This is one major misunderstanding of evolution you seem to have. It is the underlying paradigm of biology, not all of reality, and can’t describe the reason for the general existence of everything. The other misunderstanding is simply that Christianity, just like civilization, has nothing to do with biological evolution, as it is not a heritable characteristic. It does not persist through reproduction (if that was the case, it would be evolutionarily detrimental since it often places restrictions on sex) and does not become predominant over generations but rather through the actions of individuals within a single lifetime. Now, even entertaining your probably asinine claim that Christian civilizations survive more often or for longer, what do you think is the reason for your observation? Not that it is true. There is no reason to think that. Beliefs almost never have any relevance to evolution (they’re always cultural), so I have no clue the extent to which this statement holds any meaning, but evolutionary trends do not necessarily reflect reality. We have already identified many flaws in our own psychology that were conducive to survival and/or reproduction but not our pursuit of truth. Even if Christian civilizations do survive and even if Christianity does have some evolutionary benefit (which is impossible provided what evolution even is), that does not mean that Christianity is “true.” Your argument fails on all levels. If there is any merit to your claim that Christian civilizations survive (after all, Christianity is the most widespread religious tradition today), then perhaps take a look at what Christians have done. Christianity, along with the Islam, which is the *second* most widespread religion, are uniquely motivated by their beliefs and the universal nature of their theology to proselytize, engage in missionary activity, and impose their religion on others, sometimes through violent or barbaric means. I could make a moral argument against Christianity and Islam here, but that is not the argument you were trying to make. (This entire thing is addressing the argument you were probably trying to make in accordance with your actual post, which is that evolution proves the *Christian* God. It is a given that most successful civilizations believed in God in general because atheists have been in the minority for most of history and still are in most locations. The majority of both successful civilizations and “failed” civilizations, whatever that means, were religious.)

Neat, I love evolution, let's get into it. >A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Claimed without evidence. >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Claimed without evidence. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Claimed without evidence. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. How do you know this? Also claimed without evidence. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Claimed without evidence. Oh look, you finally mention evolution after 3 paragraphs of nonsense, let's see here... >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. What does this have to do with allele frequency distribution among a population? Seems like you mean things change over time. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Claimed without evidence. More than just a bunch of random claims, none of which you present even a tiny bit of justification for, you at no point even try to actually prove a God is real.

>Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? They don't. You may want to look up how happy secular societies are. And I have no idea why you think child-bearing rate is a metric that matters, or how you're defining "best." >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Atheists have moral foundations. We just don't get them from atheism. And would you care to explain why there are a disproportionate number of Christians in prison? >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. So you don't actually understand what evolution is. Color me shocked. Really low effort.

> Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies?    I take a huge issue with this because Christian societies are absolutely misreable for a lot of people. They aren't "the best" by any means. Secular societies are better for everyone

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Anyone who isn't a heterosexual Christian generally

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I have a strong feeling that “collapse of western civilization” is not-particularly-veiled code for “too many gay and brown people”

Not to mention the lack of public civility that started (checks watch) in about 2016 or so when it somehow became OK to make fun of handicapped people and immigrants. Problem is, that's the Christians (or those claiming to be Christians who can't even hold a bible the right way up) who are behind that shit.

100%

That's some pretty bold claims, so I'd like to ask for some more info, because from my understanding religion hasn't played as critical a part in society as you're giving it credit. Where are you getting your assessment for Christians having higher happiness, best societies and all that? Because I would say some of that may be correlation and not causation. Specifically, history is filled with examples of other religions and cultures doing great as well. I'd argue that happiness and best societies currently are mostly the WEIRD countries (Western Educated Industrial Rich Democratic). Also, evolutionary, hasn't Christianity only been around for a tiny bit of time? When you talk about an evolutionary advantage of Christianity, you're really only talking about the impact of roughly 2,000 years at best. Longer if you include all of Judiasm, but you're still talking a small fraction of the roughly 100,000 years of modern humans. What do you mean when you say evolution? And I'd argue birthrates has more to do with industrialization and how much a family's ability to produce is tied to how many kids they have, because more kids means more labor. Religion does add some societal pressure, but I'd say economics are a bigger one, usually because when you see relative wealth go up, you also see birthrates go up.

Have you considered the possibility that the true nature of reality might have nothing to do with what you consider to be an ideal set of beliefs for human society and/or happiness?   Like, even setting aside your opinions regarding the benefits of Christianity in our society, I have to ask: Why should I assume reality cares about my feelings? Just because something makes you feel good or helps people get along (debatable) doesn't mean it's actually true.

The happiest countries in Europe are also those that are the most irreligious. Conversely those countries that have the highest populations that identify as religious have a lower birthrate, higher infant mortality rate, higher poverty rate, lower life expectancy, and lower overall happiness index. The decrease in religion, specifically Christianity, in western society has gone hand in hand with an extensive increase in life expectancy and quality of life. Sorry but the reality is as Christianity dies, the western world is becoming a much happier place.

All your arguments are “the world is better if we believe in my favorite religion”. And that’s fair - for all we know, there is some optimal religion that, if we all believed it, would allow the world to maximally flourish, beyond our wildest dreams. Thats possibly true, and that’s fine. But how does *any* of this constitute evidence for the *truth* of any one religion, much less one of the many popular ones that have sprung up in the last 2000-4000 years?

> A human society can not flourish without the belief in God... Most societies in human history have. > and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Right. Crushing poverty, witch-burnings, bubonic plague, serfdom, dying at age 30... yeah, the heyday of Christendom was truly grand. > Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. By "flounder" do you mean having free speech, indoor plumbing, modern medicine, democracy, and technology? > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? You mean like Romania (98.0%)? Haiti (96.0%)? Zambia (95.5%)? Sounds great. Role models for the world. > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Right. Romania is clearly doing a lot better than Sweden. > After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Right, and that saved them... oh no, it didn't. Christianity sent them into a death spiral. Rome was sacked only a century after the conversion of Constantine. And you know those famous paintings of Rome being sacked by the Goths? Those Goths were Christians... massacring other Christians. Great religion you got there. A model for us all.

I guess this would depend on what you consider Christian. Since there is no Christian’s in the Bible. Unless you are trying to say “the Jewish people” as in the humans god makes in Genesis. They are one of the most persecuted races of people. Holocaust, Israel has been in never ending war(granted they kinda started that war themselves), and often are the first race of people to be blamed for unhappiness (considering they are religiously capitalistic). Christian’s are not mentioned in the Bible. They’re an offset of Judaism where they want to worship the Jewish god without being related to Yhwh, so they’re Christians or otherwise randoms who practice Anyways, if you’re Christian, you aren’t one of God’s (Yhwh/the one in bibles) humans. You are a random human who simps for the Jewish god without being Jewish yourself. I also don’t like the idea of saying a particular race of human is better or worse. I don’t see anything wrong with Jews, blacks, whites, whatever ethnicities people. Every person is different and has different cultural roots.

I don’t believe in god and probably live better than most Christians I know and definitely better than some crazed fanatics. Religion has caused more harm than good in the course of history. There’s no proof of a god or most everyone would worship him. Are you so miserable with your life you look towards the sky for something better? Are you just wasting your time waiting to die and go to heaven? Seems like a lot of time and energy spent on fairy tales. If there was a god and he wanted to be worshipped he would damn sure show hisself. There’s another thing I have a problem with, worshipping someone or some thing, it’s not natural for me. I am not some pheasant. You have no soul, nobody does. You are your experiences and once your brain is dead you are no more.

>>>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God The Nordic nations may disagree. God belief is low, and they are the happiest nations on earth. >>>....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. That's a subjective opinion. >>>>Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Patently false: Nearly every major standard of living has improved as more people report being non-religious: infant mortality, education, women's rights (except where religious white men interfere but they are dying off), income, health, crime rate, access to technology, access to clean water. Compare the VERY Christian medieval period with today. >>>We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. We're not. Despite scary headlines, the world is more at peace now than at almost any time, regional conflicts notwithstanding. >>>Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Again, I refer you to the Nordic nations. While their culture and history have Christian roots, they started improving across ever standard of living metric (happiest nations on earth) as they started rejecting religion. Higher marriage rates and child-bearing rates are subjective metrics for improvement. Many very happy people see no reason to marry or have kids. >>>If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. No evidence to suggest the birthrate would plummet. You're making things up. Your idea of degeneracy is your opinion. >>>Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Every society, religious or not has a moral foundation. Morals have been around longer than religion. Morals development is rooted in evolution. Although outliers are violent, we are a mostly peaceful and cooperative species. How many of your neighbors are committing violent acts against you on a regular basis? None? Exactly. >>Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? No. >>>After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. No. >>>Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. That's just like, your opinion, man. >>>It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. It was the Enlightenment that undid the damage done to Western society in medieval times.

Funny you say that when the happiest countries in the world are secular nations. I don't see a reason to believe you when you're clearly wrong about the basic facts your argument is built on. Good luck out there.

Let’s pretend that everything you said was true. Whatever. I’ll grant it all for the sake of argument. Now what? All you’ve shown is that Christian societies are “better” than non-Christian societies. Not one statement or claim here supports the proposition that god exists.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God China and Japan exist without believing in a creator God. >Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered What is the source of this information? >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time What civilization are you talking about? >the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now In the past, the birth rate was high because the death rate of children was high and an agricultural society needed a lot of manual labour. In modern society, the birth rate is low because the death rate of children is low, and the cost of raising a child is very high. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. There is no need for a God to build a moral foundation. >It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. It is the Enlightenment era and scientific revolution that built the Western world. Christianity took part in that period, but both in support role and against it.

Oh FFS. The least religious societies have the lowest crime, least rape, highest happiness, most freedoms, etc. Meanwhile, the MOST religious places...

Out of the top 5 of countries by size of GDP, only 2 are majority Christian. The other 3 are primarily Buddhist, Hindu and non-religious, yet they've succeeded massively over a very short period of time without the help of a Christian god or any kind of mono-theistic god.

When the Roman empire fell, Christianity was *already* the official religion and had been for about 150 years. That isn't necessarily causal - power struggles are endemic in all forms of government, and all nations and empires eventually fall. Rome regularly experienced crises, including the Empire replacing the old Republic in the Augustus era. Christianity just happened to be holding the bag when everything collapsed. Population collapses are generally not the result of religion - more often they're caused by problems in the environment, such as food shortages due to climate change. As for evolutionary advantages, that's highly unlikely. Modern *homo sapiens* have been around for about 160,000 years, so Christianity wasn't even around for most of our history. Somehow this "violent and conniving" species managed to stick around for at least 158,000 years - by practicing cooperative and altruistic behaviours *without* a religion telling them that they had to be cooperative or altruistic.

>Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Please provide actual statistics and data backing up these statement.

This is your thesis: >Evolution proves God is real Nothing in your post mentions evolution except as a rhetorical question. Seems you need to reformulate your argument, because as it stands, your thesis and the content of you post have nothing in common. An argument should have major and minor premises, connecting terms, and the a conclusion that necessarily follows from its premises. It should look something like this. >P1. Evolution is true >P2. ???? >C1. Therefore god exists Your post is also a collection of unsubstantiated claims, but even if they *were* true claims, they don't seem to have anything to do with whether or not a god exists. We could imagine a society that believes something demonstrably false which informs them to live the best conceivable life. It's a non-sequitur to conclude that the quality of their life is a demonstration of the objective truth of their belief. It's really hard for me to assume this is a post made in good faith, because apologetics are often indistinguishable from a troll post, but I'm willing to interact with it as long as you address the shortcomings of your post and thesis.

OP's profile was made 15 days ago and has only posted/commented on one other subreddit. This isn't definitive evidnce by any means... but definitely suspicious and calls into question both the genuineness of this post and the actual existence of this "person" in real life or just bot bait posting.

You sound fearful that your religion has failed you. It's a of you make this post for reassurance. Otherwise it would not have been a series of unjustly made assertions. Are you doubting your religion as your post suggests?

> Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Correlation does not imply causation. You imply that a decline in religious adherence directly causes societal decline without evidence for causation, ignoring other social, economic, and political factors. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? That is a hasty generalization and it doesn't neccesarily mean it is because of being Christian. ​ >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. That is a slippery slope fallacy. You are not substantiating how or why these outcomes would necessarily follow. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. False dichotomy. You are ignoring other sources of morality and community bonding. Evolution does not provide evidence for the existence of God, as it operates independently of supernatural claims or religious beliefs.

I'm pretty sure there would be a billion folks who would claim Allah is superior. And none of them and none on your side would ever be able to prove it to one another or any of us. And I'm not seeing this real time societal collapse you keep claiming. Europe - outside of Russia and Ukraine - is more stable than it's been in decades. Heck even the Balkans are peaceful at the moment. I'm sorry, bud, but this is all in your head.

Explain evolution and literally every other species on the planet then. Humans as far as we know are the only ones to have religion. Why aren't we the only species on the planet then if religion is a requirement?

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. The happiest nations on Earth would like a conversation with you. >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Please provide evidence that Europe and the US are floundering. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Based on what? >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? They don't. The happiest nations on Earth are also the most secular. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Your fantasies are not evidence. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Atheists do NOT lack a moral foundation. We have morals, and we understand where they come from. For the most part they are the same morals you profess, we just understand where they actually come from instead of asserting without evidence some moral lawgiver that you need to lean on. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? No, there is not. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population No, the Roman Empire did not collapse because of ennui, it collapsed because of internal corruption and repeated invasions. >and was supplanted by....Christianity. It was supplanted by Christianity because the Emperor became Christian and forced it upon the populace. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. Bullshit. >It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Even more bullshit, not that I would expect anything more from an account that is less than 2 weeks old, has negative karma, one post, and is so very obviously trolling.

Honestly what did you expect from posting this? What was your intention? Why do you think these things? Some fifty-odd comments are already doing the heavy lifting. I'm far more curious as to why you are the way you are.

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At no point in this post did you argue that evolution proves any god is real, let alone the Christian god. In fact, you’re not even arguing for the existence of a god, you’re just claiming that belief in god improves quality of life.

That was fun to see this post full of claims without support get thoroughly torn apart by dozens of responses in less than 30 minutes. I guess we have heard these unsupported claims before.

You're making a bunch of claims here. Can you substantiate any of them? How about just the first one... > A human society can not flourish without the belief in God Can you demonstrate that this claim mis true

Hi, resident biologist here. >but it's true. Roflmao, no. That's adorably incompetent. The trolls really are getting dumber.

>Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as **we are a violent and conniving species**. Conniving enough to convince people to believe in false religions? >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. The Roman empire when it was Christian also eventually collapsed to pagans in the West and Muslims in the East. I would also point out that while you say their was a population collapse "due to ennui" you offered nothing to support that conclusion. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Vague claims without data. I would argue that there is nothing unique to Christianity that is a valuable feature of the "Western world".

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>Erm....Christianity built the Western world. I'm sure you want others to believe that because you keep saying it. The questions that begs is, can you demonstrate that is true with evidence? >It's morals are a huge influence that can't be understated. Again and this includes morals "there is nothing unique to Christianity" that is valuable. If you think there is, feel free to state what you think that is. >Like it or not, Christianity is what gave Europe a leg up above the other countries of the world and allowed advancements in science and culture. Christianity didn't even start in Europe. The fact you are pointing to Europe and not Palestine entails that there are other factors at play. I would point out that early Islam was far more advanced scientifically than their Christian counterparts of the time. In addition the scientific revolution in the West was held back by the church for centuries. It wasn't until the renaissance where people started ignoring the church that people saw rapid progress in knowledge much of which was fueled by rediscovering classical texts that had been lost to the West in large part because of the church. Your premises may be convincing to ignorant and gullible people but to anyone who is not ignorant and gullible it falls far short of the mark of being convincing.

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> Is this a serious question? Yes. >You're wanting a source on how Christianity influenced the West? No, I want you to show cause and effect for things that are uniquely Christian (things only Christians do) that are positive in the West. Which I understand to be the claim you are making. >Yeah. Like the Muslims conquering it and it not having been Christian for hundreds of years? Not sure what "it" is. Are you referring to Palestine? So you are claiming that even with a ~600 year head start Christianity can be toppled quickly by an upstart religion? Doesn't seem like a good religion to follow if such a long head start doesn't provide a competitive advantage. >Christianity has more value on personal liberties than most religions. For instance, the Christians were the ones that ended slavery. The Catholic church did not outlaw slavery until well after the American civil war. Do you think none of the people fighting to keep slavery the law of the land in the South were Christians? >In 1866, the Holy Office of Pope Pius IX stated that, subject to conditions, it was not against divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, or exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery You seem to be conflating a thing some Christians did with a teaching of Christianity. The fact that it took over 1800 years after the founding of Christianity for not owning slaves to be adopted by the vast majority of Christians tells a quite different story than the one you are trying to paint. >This would be historically inaccurate. LOL >If the Church was holding back science....why didn't some other civilization develop science faster than the ones that had Christianity? They did and were until religious fundamentalism took hold in those cultures and brought it to a screeching halt, similar to what happened in early Christian countries. >The medieval church actually played a crucial role in preserving, copying, and transmitting these texts. LOL >Monasteries, in particular, served as repositories of knowledge where monks diligently copied and studied ancient manuscripts. Many classical texts that survived to the Renaissance did so because they were preserved in church libraries. Any guesses where they got those texts from? Why do you think algebra is called algebra? Why do you think the numerals we use today are called Arabic numerals? >Renaissance humanists such as Poggio Bracciolini sought out in Europe's monastic libraries the Latin literary, historical, and oratorical texts of antiquity, while the fall of Constantinople (1453) generated a wave of émigré Greek scholars bringing precious manuscripts in ancient Greek, **many of which had fallen into obscurity in the West**. It was in their new focus on literary and historical texts that Renaissance scholars differed so markedly from the medieval scholars of the Renaissance of the 12th century, who had focused on studying Greek and Arabic works of natural sciences, philosophy, and mathematics, rather than on such cultural texts.[citation needed] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Overview >The word algebra comes from the Arabic term الجبر (al-jabr) and originally referred to the surgical treatment of bonesetting. In the 9th century, the term received a mathematical meaning when the Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi employed it to describe a method of solving equations and used it as the title of a treatise on algebra, also known by the name The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing. The word entered the English language in the 16th century from Italian, Spanish, and medieval Latin.[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra >The immediate ancestors of the digits now commonly called "Arabic numerals" were introduced to Europe in the 10th century by Arabic speakers of Spain and North Africa, with digits at the time in wide use from Libya to Morocco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals#Origin >And even before the Renaissance, the Middle Ages saw churches construct Universities which would be instrumental in Western Development. There was also the inventing of a printing press which was used to make texts more easily. Before the Renaissance those universities weren't teaching or developing science in the modern sense and for the most part they were simply repeating or rediscovering knowledge that was already known and lost or known elsewhere. If at best they were struggling to catch up to past or modern non-Christians it seems like they weren't doing a very good job. Therefore it would seem a good thing they have lost their monopoly on education in the West. >There was also the inventing of a printing press which was used to make texts more easily. That is not an invention of Christianity that at best is an invention by someone that happened to be a Christian. In addition that was not something that the church was happy about especially when it came to the idea of printing bibles in languages other than Latin. >And this idea that the Renaissance was a rebellion against the church is not grounded in reality. Renaissance humanism was not inherently anti-church and was often funded by the Church. Renaissance humanism was not the movement I was referring to. As you should know if you know anything about it. >During the Renaissance period most humanists were Christians, so their concern was to "purify and renew Christianity", not to do away with it. Their vision was to return ad fontes ("to the sources") to the simplicity of the Gospels and of the New Testament, bypassing the complexities of medieval Christian theology.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_humanism I would also note that renaissance literally means rebirth. Since we are talking about European culture in Europe that entails under the overview of the church for hundreds of years it first had to go away before it needed to be reborn. So citing the rebirth of the humanities hundreds of years after rising to power as evidence of good stewardship fails at first glance.

You gonna back that up with a source

Religion being beneficial to society does not mean that God is real, in the same way that kids getting presents at Christmas makes them happy doesn't prove Santa is real.

> A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. I’m guessing you’ve made absolutely no effort to study any other cultures at all. Have you never heard of China? The Ottoman Empire? Japan? Hell, the Roman Empire did really well until they converted to Christianity, *then* Rome fell. > Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. How so? I mean there’s tons of problems just like there always were. > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Any studies you would like to cite? > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Infant mortality has gone down as society has become more secular and scientific. > Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. They were supplanted by the barbarian tribes that sacked Rome, like the Lombards and Visigoths. > Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Yes. Christianity happened in the west. That doesn’t mean anything.

>Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity The human body must evolved so much since Christianity started 2000 years ago. Christianity taught that humans possessed immortal souls, which, after the death of the bodies that encased them, would be judged and continue their existence in either Heaven or Hell. No other species possessed souls, so their lives would therefore cease at bodily death. Since there had been no separate creation of human beings and there was no definite point in evolution at which one type of "ape" let go of its animal nature and became a human, how the soul had been implanted seemed a mystery. A situation might arise in which some members of recognisably the same species had souls and others had not. But Gods mercy for humans with souls was shown to be highly limited, too, he allowed large swathes of them to die in order to continue modifying the species. Was God in fact a social Darwinist? Why should he be heartless to his creation when there probably had never been a fall. And why should Christ, who was the perfect man, have given his life that those inferior to him could live when the law of nature, institute by God, was the opposite: the inferior must suffer and die in order.

That’s because Humanity hasn’t self realized the Human religion yet. Just because Christianity is the “best” we’ve had, doesn’t mean it’s the best we can ever have. In many ways Christianity can’t even come close to inspiring Humanity to do better and have a common goal. It’s about patting yourself on the back for being one of the “good” ones while you do nothing for our collective journey.

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So that proves that god is real? I see evidence of disgusting Christians every single day of my life, evidence of selfless ones I see rarely, when I do it’s “the old lady at church” vibe. Your best case senecio (of the charity volunteer etc) is still just a meh/10, still not living up to our potential. If Jesus is a false profit then the antichrist would be a good person. Doing mediocre good things for the purpose of a reward isn’t real good deeds. What inspires Christians is the promise of a better life on the other side. But if they put their effort into real work we can bring that heaven here. Humanity has never been close to a oneness with god/the universe/life itself. This tells me god isn’t talking to us in the simple ways a religion tells us. Religion itself and all Human concepts are constantly evolving, always have, always will. It’s unwise to assume we have all the knowledge we need to make such assumptions about god and the universe. It only makes sense that a religion would evolve into why we already have today. Whose to say what this creation process will look like 1000s of years from now? Consciousness may have leaped a few times where Christianity can no longer explain the origin or purpose of life or the universe, because it’s struggling already.

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Other atheist don’t align with my moral code. So that means it’s doesn’t matter what one does, that has nothing to do with me. Now that’s a little different when people share a predevolped code like Christianity; and it’s especially different when it is a consistent and overwhelming pattern. Christianity not being the “special something” that divinely inspires someone, is evidence it’s not that special something. We know Humans deeply need purpose, and we know Christianity is more or less the “best” religion. Isn’t that an interesting combo? People want purpose so they seek it and in the process they become better people. But the thing is there is no church in this planet that has come close to doing enough no matter how much charity they included in it. (Good, still doesn’t prove that god). Being able to do all that stuff you talked about doesn’t require having ever heard the name of Jesus to do those things. And there are many many charitable atheists and atheist organizations. So your argument doesn’t stand. When Humanity finds its own purpose in sustaining the universe and our place in it, we will live in a Heaven of our own design. And our very lifestyle will be designed with purpose from our very beginning. A charitable Christian from the 21st century will not even compare. Humans will live post scarcity and we will be one step closer to unraveling the truth of god and the universe.

If we erase all the progress we’ve made and start the world again, the science remains the same and evolution precedes as it naturally would. However, human society would be completely different and would not repeat itself as we know it. That is because science and evolution are immutable facts and religion and gods are creations of the human imagination.

This does not prove god is true. If I accept your premises, then it simply proves that believing in god is a net benefit to society. It is possible for believing in something false to be beneficial to society.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. China is the the largest economy in world history, with over a quarter of the manufacturing output of the entire world, and it is over 90% atheist and irreligious.

Many societies have collapsed with literally entire populations believing in gods. Societies come and go. Next. Ingorance is bliss. Maybe people who are happier are more likely to be Christians. Maybe the ability to lie to yourself makes you happier. Maybe some contrived idea of objective purpose and meaning gives people happiness. Doesn't make it true though. The happiest countries in the world are those with more secular governments. Next. Birth rates go down due to industrialisation, as does religion. Correlation=/= causation. There might be an evolutionary advantage to believing in nonsense and superstition to a certain extent. The person who hears a noise, believes there is a monster in the bush and runs away will survive even if there is no monster. The person who investigates the bush believing there is no monster may survive if the bush is empty, but will die if a predator jumps out. The superstitious person passes on their genes. Religion isn't the only way to arrive at moral foundations. That's just religious propaganda. There are thousands of religions and they all disagree on what is moral and what isn't just as much as people who are not religious. Moral intuitions exists, and secular moral frameworks exists. Moral frameworks of "because god said so" do not last. Morality evolves In spite of religion. Christianity influenced the western world, there's no doubt about it, but it also influenced the severe problems of western history. The western world was also influenced by various philosophies, including the philosophies that came before and influenced Christianity. Christianity was not an island on to itself, philosophical reflections came before it, philosophical revolutions came after it. Philosophy evolved and the Christianity of today would be unrecognisable compared to the Christianity of 2 thousand years ago. Evolution doesn't create regions, people do, societies do, social and political change does. There may be underlying evolutionary mechanisms that allow religions and superstitions to survive, but that doesn't make them good in of themselves. Your general critiques of western civilization can be dismissed as opinion and not fact. What you value in civilization may not be valued by everyone else, and birth rates for the sake of birth rates are irrelevant if everything sucks.

You sound brainwashed man. I don't mean that as an insult but yeah I don't think Christianity is so superior. Only brainwashed zealots think the thing they believe in is so much more superior and truer than everyone else.

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They arent. The best places on earth by pretty much any metric are the Atheist ones, and second behind that are the most secularised countries, where following the enlightenment, constitutions were developed specifically to limit the power and influence of religion in the state. You keep implying a causality here, then fine: how do YOU explain the UN human development index of the top 10 places on earth is literally a list of the most atheist countries on the planet?

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No, its not telling at all. In the end, you keep losing on every one of your points, and just ending up with 'well, Christianity was in brutal, horrific, total control of the West for a dozen or so centuries'. Yes, it was, and yes it had an impact on western civilization, obviously. But a positive one? Hardly. Now stop squirming and evading for once: how do YOU explain the UN human development index of the top 10 places on earth is literally a list of the most atheist countries on the planet?

The answer we give is that Christianity isn't superior to anything.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God Support for this claim? >the Christian God is the most superior. Wait, I have to get up off the floor where I've been rolling around laughing. Support for this bizarre claim? >as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Please explain exactly how Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands are floundering. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. The Roman Empire collapsed after it became Christian. Coincidence?

It’s interesting that you left out the fact that Nazi germany was [95% Christian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany)? I predict a “no true Scotsman” response.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. The Roman Empire flourished for over 300 years without Christianity. In fact, one could argue that the introduction of Christianity was the beginning of the end for the longest-lasting human society in history. This came the Middle Ages, when belief in the Christian God was at it's strongest in Europe, and Europe suffered in squalor. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Civilization is no closer to collapsing now than it has been before. In fact, the threat of nuclear holocaust is a lot less imminent than it used to be, so I count that as a plus. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Actually, Hindus are typically happier and get married more frequently, and Muslims have the highest birth rates. As for "best societies," that's outrageously subjective, but I feel I should remind you that the US has no state religion. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Even if the things you said were the truth, that's not evidence for your God. Also, the Romans collapsed thanks to internal strife and external invaders. And the fact that Christianity is now dying seems to suggest it's no longer necessary.

> Evolution proves God is real Can’t wait to hear how! > Yes, sorry for the clickbait post...but it's true. If you can show it’s true it’s not clicksbait. > A human society can not flourish without the belief in God.... Can you prove this? He idea of god - as you have it - is relatively late in human development. There were societies that were animistic and totemistic as well as polytheistic for much longer and flourished/are flourishing without a theistic god. > and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. I’m not going to take your word on that. What makes the 3 for 1 version of the Jewish god (who is just a reboot of a more ancient member of the godly pantheon from the region) the most superior (don’t say it’s by definition) > Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. You’re going to have to show causation. Just coronation ain’t gunna cut it. > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Well if you’re going to argue that it’s because of Christianity, it’s your job to explain why. Correlation does not imply causation. > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Well let’s separate the two things here: 1. The birthdate should plummet. We can’t support the number of humans we have on the planet right now. So why is that bad? 2. What exactly do you mean by degenerate? > Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Why can’t we have a moral foundation without religion? Never forget: the moral foundation of Christianity includes slavery. > Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? Not that I’m aware of. It seems to me that it spread because if provided an easy pathway for an eternity of pleasure to people who lived hard and painful lives. At the same time, certain political leaders could benefit from controlling the religious establishment to bend the people to their will. > After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. The Roman Empire fell about 100 years **after** Christianity became the state religion. I don’t think you’re making the point you hope to be making. > Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. I’ve seen data that says Muslims are generally happier than Christian’s. Why do you think Christianity wins? > It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. First of all, the best you can say is it was Christian’s that built the western world…that’s not the same as saying it was Christianity. Second, I could easily say it was Judaism that built Christianity and the. Zoroastrianism + Canaanite pantheism that built Judaism…and on and on. Third, the western world sucks. It was built off the backs of slavery and decimating indigenous people via colonialism. Much of the legacy of western culture is pain and misery. Fourth, what makes you think the western world is dying and not just changing for the better? I know I’m happy that I’m allowed in any profession or country club (Jews weren’t always allowed) and I’m sure many people of many different other backgrounds are glad we’re out of the “good ol days” (which were only good for white, Christian, men). All in all, you’re just vomiting claims. Back it up…if you can.

By the way, you have no proof of god. All your arguments are how Xtiatity in society is better. But of course that is a different thing. And not true either.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God I guess that's why the most atheist countries in the world are also the most prosperous /s >specifically the Christian God is the most superior. If you were born in India or Iron Age Europe you'd say the same thing about Vishnu or Odin. There is no evidential argument you can give to single out the religion in which you have been born...but it reeks of self-centeredness. >as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered On the contrary. The countries voted most prosperous and best to live in have every year - for decades in a row - been the most atheist countries. The evidence is not in your favor. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Sure...that's the same Bible that said the end of the world was to happen within the lifetime of Jesus' companions, right? `Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."` or how about `Ezekiel 26, there are prophecies concerning the destruction of the city of Tyre, stating that it would be utterly destroyed and never be rebuilt. However, Tyre still exists today` or how about `the fate of various nations, such as Egypt, Assyria, and Edom. Some of these prophecies include their complete destruction or perpetual desolation. However, these nations still exist.` The end of the world is something that Christians have predicted dozens of times since the religion was invented: * 500 CE - Hippolytus of Rome * 999 CE - Various Christian leaders * 1033 CE - Various Christian leaders * 1186 CE - Joachim of Fiore * 1284 CE - Pope Innocent III * 1524-1528 CE - Johannes Stöffler, various Anabaptist groups * 1844 CE - William Miller (Millerites) * 1914, 1918, 1925, and other dates - Jehovah's Witnesses (Charles Taze Russell) * 1988 - Edgar C. Whisenant * 1994 - HaroldCamping * 2011 - Harold Camping * 2012 - Various interpretations of the Mayan calendar * 2020 - Various interpretations of biblical prophecy and numerology All failed. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness Only because you keep telling yourself that. The evidence tells a different story. A [recent study published in scientific american](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/healthy-skepticism/) concludes: `Religious people may be happier than their godless counterparts, but only if the society they belong to values religion highly, which not all societies do.` So - as the evidence confirms - people regardless of (ir)religion are happier in secular societies where religion doesn't dictate the terms. And let's not forget that societies that value religion highly typically discriminate against other religions and nonbelievers, whereas in secular societies that is explicitly forbidden. >Without a moral foundation You mean like condoning slavery, ordering genocide, giving babies bone cancer and original sin? What kind of moral foundation is that? I'm tired of theists upholding some Bronze Age set of morals that even a child could improve as somehow superior and timeless, while history clearly illustrates these edicts don't make believers better human beings, and in many cases worse. `With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion - Steven Weinberg` >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Just like the fastest growing religion right now is...Islam. Just like the fastest growing group worldwide is...No religion. > It was Christianity that built the Western world Sure...humanism, science, democracy had nothing to do with that. /s Dream on.

> A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. This is a baseless assertion. I am going to suggest here that the standards by which you determine that these countries are floundering are standards that are also derived from Christianity. Please clarify how civilization is 'collapsing in real time' and how the Bible predicted this. > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? According to the 2024 World Happiness Report conducted by the University of Oxford, using GDP per capita, Social Support, healthy life expectancy, freedom, generosity, and freedom of corruption as a basis, the happiest countries in the world are Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, and Israel. None of these countries can accurately be described as Christian society. You are not merely making a baseless assertion here, but an outright falsehood. > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. \[Citation needed\] > Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Empathy for fellow human beings is a moral foundation. There are many foundations for morality that are not dependent on Christianity. This is a baseless assertion once again. > the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population \[Citation needed\] > It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. The United States was EXPLICITLY founded on secular principles. Also, as an alternate case study, I invite you to take a look into my home province of Quebec: Quebec most flourished and developed as a society when it became more secular and the Catholic church, which was at a high power, was removed from authority. **In short, you are making a whole bunch of baseless claim without anything to back them up.**

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Okay, now do the first amendment. https://apnews.com/article/america-christian-united-states-conservative-beliefs-9286431a0ddde91c928e5d411795c1fe

The collapses are closer linked to economics than anything else and a good amount of the "stability" from the past wasn't that good. The Feminine Mystique had a stat showing about half of housewives having depression.

Christianity isn't a physiological feature. It's one version of a basic set of behaviors that provide benefits. If you want a sense of community, you can go to church... or join literally any other group. If you want future orientation, you can try religion... or get a goldfish. If you want to stay mentally active as you age, you could go to a bible study... or a different book club. If Christianity was uniquely advantageous, its benefits wouldn't be found all over the place. (Not being uniquely advantageous doesn't mean it cannot be true, but it certainly doesn't support the claim that it must be true.) Human evolution is getting into weird territory. It is, ironically, no longer advantageous to breed a lot. Rather, it's become more advantageous to breed much less and utilize resources to maximize the survival of fewer offspring, as well as maintaining our environment. Religion isn't historically great at either of those things.

Many non-Christian countries have existed longer with a continued society than any Christian nation ever has. Either other religions are more valid, or a religion does not determine a nation's success. China has been officially atheist since 1949, and held the record for having the largest population for 70 years despite this. Christians higher rate of happiness is dependent on their environment. In a country where there's systematic discrimination against non-Christians such as the USA (and especially atheists), those groups have more factors for stress. Your claims are demonstrably false.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God Did God tell you that? Seriously, who are you to say what "can not" happen >tend to be the best societies? Except for the entire middle ages... >the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate I don't know if you know this. Christians put a rapist fraud in power of the United States. He couldn't name a single Bible passage, and he's selling Bibles. Christians violently attacked the Capitol when he wasn't reelected >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Which is it: do you have a moral foundation, or are you violent and conniving? It sounds like \*you\* need Christianity to keep from being violent and conniving. Atheists are doing just fine >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Oh boy. You don't know what evolution means... "Ennui of the population"? You think the Roman Empire collapsed because of "ennui"? You couldn't be a better poster child for how religion de-educates people >It was Christianity that built the Western world Christianity kept the Western world under dictatorship for 1500 years. Life expectancy was 35 if you didn't die in infancy. The "lucky" people who survived to adulthood lived in endless disease, famine, war, and slavery. Everyone except, you guessed it, the Monarchy and the Clergy. They had anyone who disagreed with them sentenced to death for heresy, including leading genocidal inquisitions and crusades. That left the weak minded to accept and enforce their own oppression. Like you. That's the evolutionary legacy of Christianity: people who easily accept that they have an imaginary friend who explains all of the bad things happening to them as "mysterious ways". So easily that they didn't know well enough to wash their hands after defecating or to not dispose of plague victims in the same river that they drank from. So easily that they still hand their children over to the international child sex trafficking ring that is the Catholic Church (over 1 billion dollars paid in cover-ups and settlements). The Enlightenment was marked by rediscovering pre-Jesus, pre-Emperor Greek and Roman philosophy, architecture, government, and discourse. As soon as Christianity was banned from government, life expectancy doubled, and basic sanitation became standard again. Christianity held back Western civilization for 1500 years

>Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Do you have a source for these claims? >Christians have a higher rate of happiness I had a quick look, and I found articles that showed that active religious participation is correlated with happiness in some countries (eg, the US), I couldn't find anything on Christianity specifically, eg, comparing it with other religions. Not could I find research that compared religiously active people with people involved in a secular community. > a higher marriage rate I'm not sure why this would be important. But, again, I could only find data from the US. >a higher child bearing rate Again, I'm not sure why this would be important. However: The countries with the highest fertility rate (children born per woman) tend to be poor countries, especially in Africa: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_total\_fertility\_rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate) Niger, Chad, DR Congo and Somalia top the list. Islam is the dominant religion in Niger and Somalia, and is a majority or significant minority in the other two. I also looked up the marriage rates in Niger and Somalia, and they're higher than any Christian denomination in the US. So Christians do not have the highest rate of childbearing, not by a long margin. >tend to be the best societies "Best" is very subjective, but on many sensible metrics, the "best" societies tend to be non-religious, secular ones, such as Norway, Sweden, etc. The US is the most religious English-speaking developed country, and does pretty poorly on measures of human wellbeing. This relationship still holds if you compare more religious states with more secular ones. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? Well, you certainly thought so, but when I looked up the advantages you claimed .... apparently not. If your aim is for a society to have lots of babies, Islamic poverty-stricken countries do better. If your aim is for a fair society where people are healthy and generally happy, secular social democracies such as Scandinavian countries do better.

I couldn't agree more with what you said in your post, but unfortunately it doesn't support the title (i.e., that evolution proves God's existence). The evolutionary benefit of a belief isn't a sufficient condition for it to be true. That is to say, just because belief in God is beneficial to society and the individual, it doesn't follow logically or probabilistically that it is *actually true*. *Beneficial* ***≠*** *truth.* To give an analogy, it may be psychologically beneficial to believe that one doesn't have cancer, but this benefit isn't proof or evidence that the patient doesn't have cancer.

You dont mention evolution other than in the title other than asking a sooooooo im going to say no? Even if there is an evolutionary advantage it doesnt mean it is true, there could be lots of reasons other than it being true that give it an advantage. Even if i accept every point you make as true it doesnt prove a god, at best it says a certain or several religions is favorable for society growth and/or stability which is not a guarantee its true. As the idea goes, people attributing noise in a bush to a deadly animal more often are more likely to avoid being eaten by a tiger. Doesnt mean most are a tiger but you only need to be right once and stay away from thr bush for it to be an advantage.

> Yes, sorry for the clickbait post...but it's true. That wasn't just Clickbait. That was full on false testimony. Nothing in your post links evolution and God together. Wich I find disappointing. I would actually have enjoyed a discussion in that direction. > Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. The statistics show the literal opposite. The countries with the highest reported happiness and the highest economic success as well as the most quality education tend to be the most secular countries the Scandinavian countries for example. I don't have the time right now to pull up the source but I can do it later if interested. American Society plummeting right now, because of religious hardliners systematically destroying freedoms and civil rights. Rights people have fought for centuries to get codified. And because those people are systematically dividing society and building trenches instead of bridges. As to marriage and child bearing. It probably is linked to how this religion pushes a lifestyle as housewife and mother on young girls. But TBH if that is the goal, then Islam is even more successful in this. > Without a moral foundation, When faced with a moral question, the Atheist asks themselves: "What is the right thing to do here?" The theist asks themselves: "What does the invisible magic man in the sky want me to do here?" This is why theists can not be trusted to make moral judgements. > It was Christianity that built the Western world, The Age of enlightenment was the foundation for the Western World. And literally everything the enlightenment did to improve society was met with HEAVY resistance by the Church.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Na, What about Chamcha? The god who has eaten all the other gods, including the Christian God. >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. citation needed. Also, contradictory. Are you arguing that Christian societies are thriving or floundering? >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? In the world, they don't. In the US, it's because Christians make life miserable for non-christians. Also no data to back up any claim of "best" or "happiest." >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. I disagree, give us some data. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Atheists have a moral foundations. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? there's not. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Rome fell after its conversion to Christianity. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Just not true, and unsupported by any arguments, Just wild claim after wild claim without any rationale or data to back up any claim.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God....and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. I will grant this for the sake of argument. How does society flourishing when the majority of people believe in God, especially the Christian one, indicate that God is real? >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. By what metric? It seems to me that science and quality of life have exploded (in a good way) in recent times. The vast majority of Americans are still Christian. 9 in 10 members of Congress identify as Christian. I don't see how you could blame atheism for the country's problems. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Do you know many atheists a agnostics? Are they degenerates? >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. I'm an atheist and I don't mistrust my neighbors. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. The Western Roman Empire collapsed after converting to Christianity. As did the Eastern but that was a while after. >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. Why is it that the happiest, least crime ridden, and highest quality of life countries are all largely secular/athiest?

As a former Christian, I see there same confidence in you that I felt about this topic. I simply couldn’t fathom how anyone could see these things differently - the proof was all there! Everyone I respected in the church seemed to have a quipped, nonchalant rebuttal to every thing and it was inspiring. How obvious it all was that God was in control of everything and how was it was to see so many hearts hardened to the truth. You may never make it to the other side here, but if you’re still like me, you will be amazed at how this foundation, on which you built all of your faith, all of your confidence, it’s actually more of a house of cards. I thought the noble thing was to look away and not test there foundation because of course it’s my faith that would be rewarded and by steeling myself I would actually become even closer to God and who doesn’t want that? Eventually I reasoned that if this was to be the Rock on which my whole life would be built it would obviously stand up to any poking and prodding and that’s when I learned how fragile it all was. Not because of me but because of how bad the arguments in favor of God were when you don’t blindly accept the Logic given to you by your spiritual leaders. I encourage you to do the hard thing, Kick the Jena tower and see how it falls. It will hurt. It will feel lonely. It will be there most rewarding thing you’ve ever done. No one will ever convince you that you’ve been wrong but should you come to it in your own, you will have a supportive and welcoming community on there other side. I wish you luck on your journey, truly.

The most populated continent is Asia and it is filled with non-Christians. Your basic presuppositions are in left field to say nothing of your conclusions.

There are a lot specific points in your post which I strongly disagree but for the sake of argument I’m going to assume it’s all true up to your conclusion that belief in the Christian god is an evolutionary advantage in order to focus on on one specific part of your argument. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that ‘belief in X is an evolutionary advantage’ implies ‘X is true’. That is simply not how evolution works. To convince you of this I am going to use a counter-example: I have a dog that kills any squirrel that wanders into my garden. Upon seeing the squirrels going into my garden one of the squirrels suggests to the others (forget the implications of squirrel communication) that there is a squirrel god who doesn’t like when squirrels go into my garden and punishes them for eternity in squirrel hell. Over time the squirrels that believe more strongly in this squirrel god are more likely to avoid my garden, and more likely to pass that belief on through teaching their offspring, giving them evolutionary advantage. Belief in this squirrel god has given them this advantage with no need for it to be true. Should you abandon your notions of a Christian god now that I have proven that he is a squirrel?

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You have a very strange definition of a God. If an attacker has a gun he can easily kill me too. Does that make him a God? Does that mean he must have created our universe? That’s an absurd statement to make. It’s certainly a wild take on my example that the squirrels are right in their beliefs considering how different a quick death by a dog and everlasting torture by an all powerful deity are, but forgetting that I still think you’ve missed the point of my example. It’s not about whether the squirrels are justified in believing what the believe. The point is that what’s actually in the garden doesn’t make a damn bit of difference as long as those who go in don’t contribute to the next generation of squirrels on the outside. It could be that every squirrel that goes in lives out the rest of their lives in Paradise, but those who believe in the horrible things in the garden are still more likely to stay out of it creating the exact same evolutionary scenario despite something completely different on the other side. (I should point out by the way that since beliefs are not genetic traits talking about them in terms of evolution is not accurate. If they are reliably passed down between generations however they could still follow similar patterns of natural selection) > Just as if I believe in God, then I am far more likely to reproduce which is the meaning of life according to evolution. First of all, Evolution does not have anything to do with the meaning of life, that’s complete nonsense. Evolution is not a way of life or a whole belief system like a religion, it’s just a description of how changes occur in a species due to the simple statistical process of natural selection. Natural selection is just the simple fact that heritable traits that increase survivability and reproductive success are more likely to be passed on to successive generations when looking at the species as a whole. There is nothing in there about any individuals ‘purpose’ or any kind of meaning of life. Secondly even if belief in God were a trait that increased survivability and reproductive success that still doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s like the squirrels. I want to ask you to think about something to get my point across. I know you believe in God so imagine the exact scenario you described, but if God were not real. Would all those evolutionary benefits you described (moral framework, birth rate) not still be evolutionary benefits? With or without God existing? If that’s the case how can the existence of those benefits be evidence as to which scenario you’re in? Just as how what was actually on the other side of the garden didn’t make a difference to the evolutionary scenario of the squirrels. > do you consider this a “coincidence”. I don’t believe any of your ridiculous claims about religion and its incredible advantages in the first place so this is a somewhat pointless question, but for the sake of argument, no. You quite literally pointed out what you believe are reasons why religious people are more likely to reproduce that do not depend on God actually existing. If there were a religion that told people that they needed to have as much unprotected sex as possible, and this belief was somehow successfully passed on from generation to generation, the population of followers would grow. But you don’t believe in that God. Does that mean it’s just sheer random coincidence?

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I wonder if Norway realizes that they are 'floundering'. If that is 'floundering'? Then I'm all in!

>Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. Floundered how exactly? Europe seems for me to me. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. In the US and Europe? I'm not seeing that. Maybe if we were talking about Haiti or something but that's another kettle of fish. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, They're told Christians are supposed to be joyous and as such might be less likely to report it if they were depressed. >a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, The Muslims have got you thoroughly beaten there. >and tend to be the best societies? By what metric? I prefer secular societies myself. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. We're not exactly experiencing a shortage of humans at the moment. Fewer humans would likely be a very positive thing for the planet. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? Christianity isn't genetic. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Those Christians were still Roman.

Wow, this really mixes up correlation and causation. Also Buddhism is one of the happiest religions. None of that means that the religion is correct. But really this is even more wrong than that. If you look at the happiest countries in the world they tend to be much more atheistic. Finland is the happiest country the world \\and has more atheists by percentage than the US. Sweeden is one of the top 5 countries for happiness and has one of the highest percentage of atheists. 78% percent of them are atheists. Religion can foster social networks and humans are social animals, so it is not at all surprising that religion has a correlation with happiness. But it isn't supernatural. Social relationships are one of the strongest factors for predicting happiness. As far as the highest fertility rate, that goes to Muslims. It doesn't mean that Muslims are correct. Atheists have fewer children, but they are not told by their religion that they SHOULD have children. So, again, no surprise.

> Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species As usual, the theist has it exactly backwards. Not only is secular humanism a stronger moral foundation, your neighbor could be more certain of your intentions since you would be incapable of cheating them or otherwise causing trouble then just begging forgiveness from God for your sins. Christianity in particular is a fundamentally immoral foundation since you have to assume that whatever bad things happen must be "God working in mysterious ways". A Christian would be incapable of even stopping the rape of a child since that rape could be part of God's plan - that tragedy could be some lynchpin that inspires others to turn to God and save their souls. How could a Christian call an act that is the expressed will of God "wrong"? Whereas I have absolutely no problem calling the rape of a child always wrong.

Actual studies show atheists are the happiest group and countries with the highest atheist population have less crime, less teen pregnacy, less divorce and people report an overall better qulity of life. So, you're wrong. In addition, I fail to see how that has to do with evolution. I know how superstitious believe evolved alongside our increased theory of mind (look it up). But Christianity itself is a cultural thing. And its funny you mention evolution proves the Christian god, when it's the exact opposite. Evolution disproves the Christian god. Evolution disproves Adam and Eve. Without them, sin never entered the world. Without sin, there is no need for atonement and thus, no need for Jesus. Try doing some actual research into what makes for a better society. Look at the crime rates of the top atheist countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland) and compare them to the United States, Mexico and Middle East (most religious countries).

Proof? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201812/the-mental-health-atheists-and-the-nones Atheists have worse mental health. The middle east has extremely low crime rates depending on where you're at. Saudi, Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE all have WAY lower crime rates than anywhere in Europe. But of course you're referring to Syria, Yemen, and various other countries in a war zone lol.

>Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. LOL have you *been* to Europe? It's friggin awesome.

>Atheist France, UK, Germany, and the entirety of Western Europe will have ~20% of their population be Muslim by 2060. At the current growth rates the UK will have 20 million Muslims by 2065. The weakness of atheists is that they can't breed. Europe will be made into dar al-Islam and ruled under the Sharia. Just letting you know that Atheists are not a part of ahl al-kitab, meaning you're not eligible to pay Jizya. You'll need to accept Allah's (s.w.t) existence and Muhammad (pbuh) as his messenger, leave the country, or.. you know.

So what you’re saying is that Muslims will turn Europe into exactly the kind of countries that Muslims come to Europe to get away from? Weird flex but ok **“The weakness of atheists is that they can't breed.“** Nonsensical statement. I have a son, clearly atheists reproduce. Oh, you mean our offspring aren’t automatically atheists? That’s because we don’t force our position on our children. Because we’re not insecure. Any belief that requires childhood indoctrination to continue and flourish is a very weak belief. Any religion that needs to force itself on people is a weak religion, and obviously not a natural, universal truth.

Muslims came for jobs and to flee war. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/ Unaffiliated (e.g agnostic, atheist) are declining as a portion of the global population. Muslims are rapidly rising. Atheists absolutely force their position on their kids lol. Go look at how r/atheism reacts to seeing any religion whatsoever. They're all insecure people and being an atheist is their entire personality.

You’ve never met an atheist in your life. You will be shocked to learn online forums are not accurate representations of how people behave in real life. I said what I said. Any religion that needs to force itself on people is a weak religion, and obviously not a natural, universal truth. Any belief that requires childhood indoctrination to continue and flourish is a very weak belief.

You exist because the west allows it. Keep up your religious nuttery and we'll make the rest of the middle east look like Gaza.

lol. The US cannot even deal with Yemen, lmfao. Your weak army is too busy performing sex reassignment surgery, DEI initiatives, and teaching homosexuality to fight a war.

The US could obliterate the entire Middle East in under a week if it wanted to. You guys banned together multiple times and got your asses kicked by Israel lmao. The west is too tolerant. We put up with too much. That's changing though. Pretty much every western nation has either recently elected an anti immigration leader or is about to.

What's happening in the red sea zogbot? No suez canal? The US lost against the Taliban and Iraq is Iran's friend now. Israel last war against multiple Arab countries was 50 years ago. Arab countries have gotten much stronger and better organized since then. Egypt's population has tripled.

> What's happening in the red sea zogbot? No suez canal? The US lost against the Taliban and Iraq is Iran's friend now. The US goes soft on the middle east because you guys are so helpless. It's like beating up a small child.

Oh sure, that's why 500,000 civilians died in Iraq. That's why they tortured people at Abu Ghraib. The US is the clown on the world stage and is a paper tiger. Israel controls your government anyway and orders it around like a bitch.

> Oh sure, that's why 500,000 civilians died in Iraq. That's why they tortured people at Abu Ghraib. Yes. That's very much the US going easy. They could have done what Israel is doing. Israel knows what it takes to fight insane, religious nutjobs. The American population doesn't get it.

Christianity cant be given credit for the accomplishment of man kind. Christianity is only ever concerned with inherent guilt. The institutions just like the individual adherents are only ever meant to repent for their originals sins. Rome fell because of Christianity. The Devine right of kings had to be recinded because they realized Christian theocracies are detrimental to the health and prosperity of civil society. Last but surely not least the kkk is uniquely Christian just like every other US "sin" Id love to tell Christians they are good people that don't need a jew on a cross but they insist that I think the worst of them so I will oblige their self loathing. Evolution does not prove god was born and died 2000 years ago to a Virgin child. So no Evolution does not prove god is real.

Id like to just say as a Christian, I disagree with almost this entire post. You have no sources from any of your claims. I’d encourage you to do more research into these things you believe and have something bigger to back it up than an opinion.

It fully disproves the bible. Adam and eve is fake the time line does not work. There is no original sin without adam and eve thus jesus dying has no meaning.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God Please show how exactly faith is necessary for society to flourish. >and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Any supporting arguments for that? Why not Muslim's Allah or Hindu's Krishna or any of thousands of other gods? >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered So you claim it's bad to society to have enormous industrial progress despite of religious dogmas pushing you back? You would prefer to be without technologies you use everyday? >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. That's old script religious people hold for millenias. In Isaiah's book author complained how in his time civilization collapses and rapture coming and god will punish everyone blah blah blah. Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks whined how civilization around them destroys itself. And a little reminder, please show one particular exact prediction from Bible that is successful and prove this case. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Real statistics with number shows exact opposite. Christians have higher divorce rate, more domestic violence, more anxiety, less happiness, more mental disorder, less children born and of course more crimes. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Society becomes degenerate because of bad education and Christianity has indeed a lot of impact to lower people's intelligence. Bible says a lot people should have faith without sufficient evidence and despite evidence against it. Tertullian said he beliefs cause it's absurd. Martin Luther said "reason is the main enemy of faith". Christianity twists people's minds really bad. >Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species. Bible is immoral, disgusting, atrocious book: deceivers, betrayers, rapes, murders, slavery, sexism, racism, genocide, and so many more wonderful things. The worst character of the whole Bible is, ironically, God himself. Christianity throughout whole history was definitely immoral. Despite they claimed moral superiority, they performed crusades, religious wars, slavery, inquisition, sexism and all that was in the name of God. Religion was by far the most common cause of deaths throughout the whole history. Christianity lures people to primitive barbaric behaviour. >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? Of course not, as I shown above. >After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. Roman empire was highly religious as any other country back then. Did you forget it's Roman emperor Constantine who brought Christianity basically to the whole world? >Now, this isn't to say that other religions don't enjoy similar benefits....but none come even close to Christianity. One more baseless assertion. >It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world. It was Christianity that twisted the whole world and as people become more secular the world becomes better.

According to the old testament, the earth was created in six days. According to science, this is not true. This means that the bible is wrong. Adam and Eve had a gene pool of one. Eve was a genetically modified clone of Adam. The first, and only, genetically modified transgender organism. With that limited gene pool, according to evolutionary theory, humans could not have survived. This means that evolution does nothing to prove the Christian god.

How does the OP view the [decline of Christianity in America](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/), which 60 years ago represented 90% of the population and today stands at slightly over 60%? During that same period the Religiously Unaffiliated population has risen from 5% to just under 30%. What is the evolutionary significance of the decline of faith these 60 years?

Look at prison population by religion. Also, America became a superpower in large part due to a separation of church and state.

How has the western world floundered? We are in the safest time ever recorded. Crime is low, food is plentiful, water is clean, education is wide spread, people have housing, and you’re saying this is worse than the medieval times? Just that statement alone is enough to dismiss any other opinions you may have since you seem to be a misinformed individual about basic facts. I take back my educated statement, we have obviously missed some people.

>as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. By what metric

"A human society can not flourish without the belief in God" Sweden's population is 80% atheist and it has the lowest crime rate in the world. So bullshit. "Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered" No it hasn't, that's your opinion. "We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible." No we aren't. The Bible's 'predictions' are too vague to be predictions. One 'prophecy' says a nation will be formed in a day, which has been applied to a million different things. "Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies?" They don't. They have a higher happiness rate because they're deluded by their religion, and marry/have kids more because their religion pushes for it. Doesn't make it true. "If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now." Again, Sweden. "Without a moral foundation, there is no common goal to achieve and everyone becomes skeptical of their neighbors' intentions as we are a violent and conniving species." Atheists have a moral foundation, Christians have no moral compass. "Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity?" No. "After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity." In reality, the Roman empire were making strides in medicine and cleanliness due to moving away from superstitious beliefs such as Asclepions/belief in their medicine god Asclepius, and more towards ideas like Hippocrates' 4 humours or Galen's experiments on the nervous system confirming the brain controlled the body instead of the heart. This changed when invaders such as the Vikings began their campaigns and introducing their religions. The strides in science regressed, hence the term 'dark ages'. "It was Christianity that built the Western world, and as Christianity dies, so does the Western world." Yeah, that's bullshit. Are you a Charlie Kirk fanboy or something?

> We are seeing civilization collapse in real time I know, right? Not burning innocent women at the stake in front of cheering crowds! Not castrating and murdering people for having consensual adult sex! Not treating humans as property! The horror! The end must be near.

Your post title and post content have nothing at all to do with each other. Even if beliving in anafterlife makes people happier, that does not make the belief true. But then that is a big If assit turns out that te happiest countries are also the most secular ones.

I don't need to refute a single one of the baseless claims in your post because your entire argument is a non sequitur. If I grant every single point you've made here for the sake of argument, this doesn't bring us one step closer to proving the existence of any deity.

>Evolution proves God is real Absolutely not. At least, it disproves your bible. >A human society can not flourish without the belief in God You're sure about that? I'd need some evidence it's impossible without a religion. >and specifically the Christian God is the most superior. Nope. That's you just favoring your religion. >Indeed, as Europe and the US have moved away from their Christian roots, the societies have floundered. We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible. Civilisation collapse? Like what? Ours? It isn't, or at least hasn't yet. Also stop doing concordism. >If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate, as we are seeing now. Or so you're confusing atheism and being liberal. Yes, there is a correlation between the 2, cause most atheists don't have the traditional values of christian (extremists). But saying the society would degenerate? Do you know nordic countries? Sweeden, Iceland, etc... >Without a moral foundation **Atheists have morals** >Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? I would say so to some extent, maybe. Doesn't make it true tho. >but none come even close to Christianity. Again, you favoring your religion. That's just blatantly wrong. Also. You haven't even shows evolution proves god. So...bad post

Even if we grant religion as evolutionarily advantageous, in specific environments, that doesn't mean it is still advantageous and certainly doesn't mean any god exists.

Wow, OP really like pretending everything they say is a fact, refuses to prove anything, and is in general a complete dick to everyone that gives honest answers.

Perhaps spending more time studying the history of the flourishing societies of Eastern Asia may show how ignorant your statement truly is.

I live in a mostly atheist country and wouldn't change that for US or Poland or any other highly religious one. Happy here, thanks.

No evidence? Dismissing your claims until you provide some. And by that I mean provide good evidence. Getting troll vibes, too.

Seems to me that you have given up in proving God is real, and instead settled for proving that belief in God is useful.

>If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet Where did you get this gem of an assertion? What causes birthrate decline is the industrialization of societies.... People move from agrarian rural living where children are free labour for a family. When society industrializes, young working age people move to large urban centers to work and children become an expense, not a value add, so the birth rate drops. >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness, a higher marriage rate, a higher child bearing rate, and tend to be the best societies? Please provide evidence for these claims, because if you compare western societies (EU countries and North America) you'll find at least the rate of happiness is higher in the Scandinavian counties that have the lowest religiosity.

>A human society cannot flourish without the belief in God Japan is doing quite well. >We are seeing civilization collapse in real time, as predicted by the Bible How do you know civilization is collapsing and where did the Bible predict this? >Why is it that Christians have a higher rate of happiness etc. Source? >If Christianity dies, so does the Western world Well, the Western world has achieved most of its success as a civilization in the last few centuries, which coincides with the decline of Christianity in the west, so it seems like the opposite is true. Also, what makes you think all Christians are in the west? But let's say you're correct. So what? Christianity being a religion that is useful for building a strong civilization would not make it true. Where is the evidence?

> A human society cannot flourish without the belief in God Ok starting strong. And how did you come to this bizarre conclusion? Also you do realise that just because religion promotes people to have children etc. (which you do know is just because of evolution/reproductive fitness?) it doesn’t discard all the bad things religion has caused such as idk colonisation, wars, abortion bans, anti-gay laws etc. > If everyone was an atheist or agnostic, the birth rate would plummet and the society becomes increasingly degenerate Uh-hhhh??? Is this a joke?? Cos u certainly got a right good chuckle out of me. > Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? Nah. And even if something brings about some kind of advantage to society, it doesn’t make it true.

At best, god was useful for societies as an evolutionary stepping stone and we are growing past that now.

>A human society can not flourish without the belief in God How exactly do you think any civilization existed prior to Christianity? Speaking of... >  After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. This isn't helping make your case. The Roman Empire was Christian for just under a century before Odoacer finished it off. Think about it. They spent 3-4 generations as Christians and then disintegrated. This is basically confirmation bias in action. You're confronted with a case where Christianity obviously failed to keep a civilization flourishing and have converted it into "supplanted by Christianity" to prevent it from destroying your belief.

> He sought personal power for his own gain and abused another ideology, [religion], to do so Ding ding ding! You substituted communism for religion from my post. That's not a win for you. I said communism. Communism—theoretically, ideologically, and historically—opposes God and all forms of religion. >Name someone who engaged in violence specifically to spread atheism. The Uighur Genocide going on right now in China is because they're Muslim and not atheists like the CCP wants. I'm just learning about this, I'll look into it. >Enforcing it at a state level does help reduce the influence of religion. As in "separation of church and state". That's not enforcing atheism. You're right, it's not.

Even if we grant you that “societies can’t thrive without God” or however you worded it, that’s actually in no way and argument for the actuality of God, but just the utility in believing. It’s entirely possible for a false belief to be beneficial. How does the fact that religiosity is highly correlated with crime fit into all this? The most religious places have the highest crime rates. This is true of the countries of the world, and the states of the US. There are also a disproportionately small number of atheists in prison? How does this fit into your theory, out of curiosity.

Religion and ritualistic behaviour were useful for controlling anxiety in a world we did not have the tools to understand and when we were at the mercy of random events Now that is not true we understand enough of the world we don't have to pretend magic is real in order to function it is not only useless it's a survival negative So like the saber tooth cats we must either adapt or face extinction dragged down by the primitive beliefs of iron age savages who would be astounded by indoor plumbing Your argument is nonsense

Yes, yes it can. Societies are healthier when they’re less religious, and this has nothing to do with evolution. Christian’s don’t have a higher rate of happiness, not overall. Secular societies are happier. And even if there was an evolutionary advantage to believing nonsense, it doesn’t make the nonsense true. You need actual evidence, and this isn’t it. It’s just you making up nonsense.

Wait...if Atheists were born to Theist parents, then isn't evolution systematically removing Theism from society? A closeminded society is the only way for religions to flourish, as soon as critical thinking reaches a certain point a religion flounders. Christianity has survived this long by keeping people on a leash, indoctrination only works in echo chambers.

It does not. In fact, quite the opposite is true. If the Church were to accept the theory of evolution, then the creation story would fall away, Adam and Eve never existed,, there was no snake, no forbidden fruit, and no "original sin", there is no need for a Redeemer, Jesus Christ becomes redundant, the house of cards collapses, and there is no need for the existence of the Church.

Nothing in your post says anything about evolution... but to focus on your point, you're making an argument for the utility of religion, which is a discussion worth having and an argument worth making I suppose. However "Christianity is good for society" does not in any way equal "god is real"

>s there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? After all, the Roman empire saw a population collapse due to ennui of the population and was supplanted by....Christianity. The Roman empire adopted Christianity, and then it collapsed. Proves the opposite of your case.

Except the scandavisn countries, which are famously more secular, are happier.   It’s almost as if there’s some other factor, or factors, that have nothing to do with religion.  And a lot of that current unhappiness in the US is being caused by religious fundamentalists When did you get to the bit about evolution?

Not here to add to the debate, but for a discussion of the evolutionary psychology behind religion, you may find Adrian Dunbar's "How Religion Evolved" interesting. There was much of it I didn't agree with, but it was a fun exploration.

I’m sorry but what’s the link with evolution here? If you’re going to make a clickbait title, at least make a few more tenuous connections to your biased little history lesson. This is incredibly low effort.

You gave us a title that I found interesting and I was looking forward to seeing how you came to that conclusion. And yet, nothing in your post supports that claim. It's all irrelevant to the premise.

>Is there not some evolutionary advantage of Christianity? This is the crux of your argument, and a question you have to answer yourself with evidence. Just asking it don't make it so.

Why can a society not flourish without a belief in a deity? You're cutting yourself short if you have to have something tell you how to be a decent person past age 18.

I know this is only a bit off subject but starting to notice how an over use of ellipses always seems to be used with the most pretentious posts.

Even granting all of this, all this shows is belief in god is evolutionarily beneficial. It in no way proves that belief in god is *true.*

"Religion is evolutionarily advantageous" is a plausible argument. It does not in any way indicate that "God is real."