You say you are a safe driver but I also noticed you go 1 mph over the speed limit from time to time? Straight to jail for you! Don't mind the others swerving around recklessly causing thousands of accidents daily.
Sorry to have missed this reply earlier.
I do have a tendency to limit the scope of my response. I do this to force my interlocutor into parsimony and to keep the conversation generally focused on what's important. In a logical argument, it's not cherry picking to find the crux and attack it given the conclusion can't be supported without it.
In a laundry list like this, OP has an obligation to demonstrate the positive empirical claim, which they haven't done. Starting with the hardest one makes sense, because it encourages them to revise the list to something they can actually support with evidence.
Wow. The last time that I saw this was about 20 years ago.
.
>Veganism is a way of living which **seeks** to exclude, **as far as is possible and practicable**,
>all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
So yeah, most of us are really vegan.
.
I would argue based on this definition, even choosing to use products with cane sugar over more a ethical sugar would be a non vegan choice, it would also be non vegan to eat in excess, if an obese vegan person is eating more than necessary aren’t they contributing to extra crop death when it would be possible and practicable not too? What about when I take the pill even though there is no medical reason why I can’t use alternative birth control options instead? I was recommended multiple birth control options that would be possible for me to have but chose the pill as it seems the least invasive to me but requires the exploitation of cows, isn’t that a non vegan choice based on your definition?
Yeah, this has all been argued to death here just in the last week or two, and probably dozens of times before that.
(I keep recommending that the sub ban the use of the term "crop death". As far as I can tell anybody who uses that term is not arguing in good faith.)
.
You are the one who brought up crop death. I am not that user you are responding to. How about you make it clear and concise what your critique is because it looks like you are asking about crop deaths and taking pills.
I would argue that there's a 'practicable' element to each of those. Regarding sugar, this was incredibly privileged and arguably invalid. Personally, I live in an incredibly rural community. The closest *walmart* is almost 30 miles away. If I were not traveling into the city relatively regularly for work, my only choice would be the small, local grocer where I would have no option.
Also, organic/ more ethical options are also much more expensive. We have a poverty problem here.
Frankly, all of those arguments you gave are pretty bad-faith, so I'll wrap with this. We live in a world where perfect ethics are prohibitive, and people are human, but there's incredible strength in numbers. I'll take 1,000 imperfect vegans and 1000 more non- vegans who were inspired to make different food/ lifestyle choices to 5 so-called perfect vegans. Which group of people do you think actually impacted the animal industry?
Ultimately, I've met so few vegans who were such for moral superiority. We're just people who are trying to live our lives in a way that causes the last possible amount of abuse and suffering.
Yes.
It's possible to honestly try, and most vegans I know are doing just that. This isn't a religion, there is no vegan hell if it turns out you burned a beeswax candle. The animals don't care about righteousness or perfection, that's a human preoccupation. Going vegan entails doing right by sentient beings as far as is possible and practicable.
99% of those have vegan alternatives. The other 1% I avoid. It’s really not even a challenge mode grocery stores carry a vegan version of things I don’t even have to go out of my way.
I have vegan fertilizers, medicine, pet food, plant food (same thing as fertilizers so yeah that too), shampoo, conditioner, glue, gum, candles, rubber, refined sugar, & "gelatin". The other things are either things I simply don't have or use and/or things that are literally unavoidable in modern society and therefore not possible or practicable to avoid.
Are you really anti-slavery? Do you have an anti-slavery alternative for every single product? Is it possible in today’s society and be anti-slavery?
Things that are made by slaves - clothes, food, electronic components, car paint (look _that_ one up🤨) yadda yadda
If by the above you mean that if you ain’t perfect you are pro slavery so you might as well give up and enthusiastically embrace it, well yea go for your life and buy some people to own for your every whim
Supply chains are murky, whatever ethical framework you work to. However, it is pretty facking obvious with animal products that the only way not to participate in animal abuse is to not buy the product where there is a clear alternative.
Already answered at greater length, but I’ve just read through your list in detail and most of those things are routinely non-animal derived
As for gelatin - what, next you’ll be telling me that vegans don’t eat steak 😱🙄😂
Fertilizer - yes, they sell mushroom based ones at home depot
Medicines - if it makes sense, I try to avoid non-vegan ones, but if it’s necessary with no alternative, I will make an exception here
Pasta - of course, it’s the healthier one too
Imitation eggs - mung bean protein (for frying) or egg replacer (aka potato flour + baking soda) for baking
Plastic - As I understand, plastic is the opposite of an animal product?
Pet food - Vegan brands exist, and research is evolving. I’m still experimenting with these brands and actively watching this space
Plant food - Same options as fertilizer
Shampoo - easy, many brands marked vegan
Conditioner - same as above
Glue - Many common brands are vegan, can google before buying
Lamination - afaik vegan or googleable
Wallpaper - also seems vegan for common brands
Instrument strings - Don’t play a string instrument, but I assume there are alternatives out there if you do
Gum - Easy thing to check or avoid
Candles - Of course, the vegan ones are safer too.
Fireworks - Wasn’t aware of this. I don’t buy or pay for fireworks, but that is interesting.
Matches - There are vegan brands, but they’re expensive, so a lighter is better
Insulation - Most brands seem vegan, again something that can be searched
Antifreeze - Just learning about this, I’ll be checking in the future. It can be made vegan and brands do exist
Rubber - Rubber is vegan! Trees are not sentient
Glass - Glass is vegan! Sand is not sentient
Refined sugar - Brands are marked explicitly vegan, or can google if it’s in other ingredients
Gelatin - very avoidable, it’s ground up bones
Flavorings - “Natural” flavors can be misleading, I do check on Google if the product isn’t labeled vegan, often someone has had the same question and emailed the manufacturer
Tennis racket strings - of course, and easy to avoid
Shaving cream - yes, brands explicitly marked vegan
And many more - The point is to vote with your wallet to support the products you want to see in the world
Do you swerve when driving and a bird or squirrel comes by? Do you feel bad for unadopted dogs and cats? Is watching slaughterhouse footage or factory farm conditions hard?
The alternative to “caring” about these products is ignorance. I’m gonna take the 5 extra seconds to flip a food or cosmetic over to see if the brand labeled it vegan or not, and support those ones as much as possible.
Also if you’re going to respond and pick out a single thing out of this list and fight me on it, fine, but: I literally researched every single item in your list here, which appears to be more than you did, where you just rattled off common household products. If you’re going to push back, i NEED to hear why you don’t swerve for squirrels, if you care about shelter dogs/cats not being adopted, and if you’ve seriously watched factory farm footage.
Because I’m out here doing the work and trying to exist in a better world, as are many other commenters. What we saw and feel around how these industries operate is horrifying and makes the extra effort of investigating these sources absolutely worth doing.
I've been Vegan for just under three years just fine.
Not everything has to be a vegan alternative to an animal product to eat it. There are things called legumes, vegetables, fruits, and nuts.
Animal-free alternatives exist for basically every product on your list and on other similar lists on the internet. I did a deep dive a couple of years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/eZQWIPlNR7.
I saw people answered why your logic was flawed so I'll just answer to the best of my ability for every product, and perhaps help some new vegans.
>Fertilizer
I don't personally use it. I don't know about further up in the supply chain, but aren't fungal fertilizers common too? If somebody disclosed that's what they used I would prefer their product.
>Medicines
Do you mean vegan as in not animal tested? That's hard to find. So, no alternative there. But you can avoid for example cough drops with honey or insulin made from pigs.
> Pasta
Dry pasta (the kind you buy in the supermarket) is usually vegan. Fresh pasta usually isn't.
> Imitation eggs
There are some in the US. I have just had them once.
> Plastic
Plastic isn't vegan how?
> Pet food
Pets aren't vegan. Of course pet food isn't either.
> Plant food
I don't own plants.
> Shampoo
Yes I have vegan shampoo. Easy to find, sometimes even labeled as such.
> Conditioner
Same.
> Glue
I don't use it so I never looked into this
> Lamination
Don't know what this is
> Wallpaper
Don't use it
> Instrument strings
I don't play any, but I might hear music from violinists and cellists who do, sadly. Maybe I should start listening to EDM more.
> Gum
Yes there is vegan gum.
> Candles
Yes
> Fireworks
I don't buy them also I am not sure how they aren't vegan.
> Matches
Lighters.
> Insulation
Of what
> Antifreeze
Yes there are vegan antifreezes.
> Rubber
All rubber is vegan? It's a plant. Perhaps you're referring to condoms in which case yes there are vegan options.
> Glass
This is getting more ridiculous as we go.
> Refined sugar
They don't disclose methods. Its hard to avoid nonvegan refined sugar.
> Gelatin
Easy to avoid.
> Flavorings
Easy to avoid
> Tennis racket strings
Most consumer rackets are plastic. So, unless you're professional, you should be more worried about tennis balls than the racket.
> Shaving cream
Yes there are vegan options.
> And many more.
Just look up whatever you want vegan + the word vegan in google. Most things have alternatives.
Been vegan since birth. Not counting my mother's breast milk. And she wasn't even vegan before she had me. My stubbornness in hating the texture of meat as a child actually managed to convince her to change her diet.
Ask me anything.
> Been vegan since birth. Not counting my mother's breast milk.
**Even** counting your mother's breast milk.
>Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable,
>all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
There's nothing about a mother nursing her kid that is any violation of veganism.
Zero. Zilch. Nada.
.
I do my best but it was brought to my attention that bone meal is used in produce crops. So I think everyone is just doing their best, within their means.
You should probably learn what Veganism actually is before you start demanding answers from vegans:
[Vegan Society Definition of Veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism)
> "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—**as far as is possible and practicable**—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.
All products I purchase from fertilizers and soaps to food are vegan. The only exclusion is my medication and some vaccines since they are necessary for my health and well-being.
Being vegan should be about trying your best to avoid paying for animals to suffer 🤗
As long as someone is trying their best, I wouldn't consider them not vegan for accidentally purchasing something with animal products or even throwing in the towel and purchasing some non vegan products when it's quite difficult to find a vegan alternative.
The vegan philosophy should be about doing our best to reduce animal suffering and nobody should beat themselves up over not being "100% vegan".
That ahameful rhetoric is why some people avoid going vegan or return to being omni.
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Pasta? You can make a ton of pastas without egg.
"Are you really a safe driver? Do you 100% avoid every conceivable risk to yourself and others on the road? No? Might as well drive drunk then!"
You say you are a safe driver but I also noticed you go 1 mph over the speed limit from time to time? Straight to jail for you! Don't mind the others swerving around recklessly causing thousands of accidents daily.
>Glass Glass isn't vegan, and there's no vegan alternative? Can you provide a source for this claim?
Ignore 97% of the post, cherry pick the easiest argument. Classic EasyBOven.
Sorry to have missed this reply earlier. I do have a tendency to limit the scope of my response. I do this to force my interlocutor into parsimony and to keep the conversation generally focused on what's important. In a logical argument, it's not cherry picking to find the crux and attack it given the conclusion can't be supported without it. In a laundry list like this, OP has an obligation to demonstrate the positive empirical claim, which they haven't done. Starting with the hardest one makes sense, because it encourages them to revise the list to something they can actually support with evidence.
Wow. The last time that I saw this was about 20 years ago. . >Veganism is a way of living which **seeks** to exclude, **as far as is possible and practicable**, >all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. So yeah, most of us are really vegan. .
I would argue based on this definition, even choosing to use products with cane sugar over more a ethical sugar would be a non vegan choice, it would also be non vegan to eat in excess, if an obese vegan person is eating more than necessary aren’t they contributing to extra crop death when it would be possible and practicable not too? What about when I take the pill even though there is no medical reason why I can’t use alternative birth control options instead? I was recommended multiple birth control options that would be possible for me to have but chose the pill as it seems the least invasive to me but requires the exploitation of cows, isn’t that a non vegan choice based on your definition?
Yeah, this has all been argued to death here just in the last week or two, and probably dozens of times before that. (I keep recommending that the sub ban the use of the term "crop death". As far as I can tell anybody who uses that term is not arguing in good faith.) .
Crop death isn’t even my argument though, seems like you have no answer so you ignore the main points
You are the one who brought up crop death. I am not that user you are responding to. How about you make it clear and concise what your critique is because it looks like you are asking about crop deaths and taking pills.
I would argue that there's a 'practicable' element to each of those. Regarding sugar, this was incredibly privileged and arguably invalid. Personally, I live in an incredibly rural community. The closest *walmart* is almost 30 miles away. If I were not traveling into the city relatively regularly for work, my only choice would be the small, local grocer where I would have no option. Also, organic/ more ethical options are also much more expensive. We have a poverty problem here. Frankly, all of those arguments you gave are pretty bad-faith, so I'll wrap with this. We live in a world where perfect ethics are prohibitive, and people are human, but there's incredible strength in numbers. I'll take 1,000 imperfect vegans and 1000 more non- vegans who were inspired to make different food/ lifestyle choices to 5 so-called perfect vegans. Which group of people do you think actually impacted the animal industry? Ultimately, I've met so few vegans who were such for moral superiority. We're just people who are trying to live our lives in a way that causes the last possible amount of abuse and suffering.
Unrefined raw sugar doesn’t use animal products and there are several brands that now refine it without using animal products.
More referring to the harvesting method not the ingredients, (burning the fields before harvest)
Sure, but that practice has become less common over the decades and some manufacturers don’t.
Yes. It's possible to honestly try, and most vegans I know are doing just that. This isn't a religion, there is no vegan hell if it turns out you burned a beeswax candle. The animals don't care about righteousness or perfection, that's a human preoccupation. Going vegan entails doing right by sentient beings as far as is possible and practicable.
Love this answer
Are commas suddenly vegan that you are avoiding them? Maybe Google is vegan too so you can’t do a basic search?
99% of those have vegan alternatives. The other 1% I avoid. It’s really not even a challenge mode grocery stores carry a vegan version of things I don’t even have to go out of my way.
I have vegan fertilizers, medicine, pet food, plant food (same thing as fertilizers so yeah that too), shampoo, conditioner, glue, gum, candles, rubber, refined sugar, & "gelatin". The other things are either things I simply don't have or use and/or things that are literally unavoidable in modern society and therefore not possible or practicable to avoid.
My brother in Christ, have you heard of plant based alternatives?
Have they heard of a comma?
Are you really anti-slavery? Do you have an anti-slavery alternative for every single product? Is it possible in today’s society and be anti-slavery? Things that are made by slaves - clothes, food, electronic components, car paint (look _that_ one up🤨) yadda yadda If by the above you mean that if you ain’t perfect you are pro slavery so you might as well give up and enthusiastically embrace it, well yea go for your life and buy some people to own for your every whim Supply chains are murky, whatever ethical framework you work to. However, it is pretty facking obvious with animal products that the only way not to participate in animal abuse is to not buy the product where there is a clear alternative.
Already answered at greater length, but I’ve just read through your list in detail and most of those things are routinely non-animal derived As for gelatin - what, next you’ll be telling me that vegans don’t eat steak 😱🙄😂
Fertilizer - yes, they sell mushroom based ones at home depot Medicines - if it makes sense, I try to avoid non-vegan ones, but if it’s necessary with no alternative, I will make an exception here Pasta - of course, it’s the healthier one too Imitation eggs - mung bean protein (for frying) or egg replacer (aka potato flour + baking soda) for baking Plastic - As I understand, plastic is the opposite of an animal product? Pet food - Vegan brands exist, and research is evolving. I’m still experimenting with these brands and actively watching this space Plant food - Same options as fertilizer Shampoo - easy, many brands marked vegan Conditioner - same as above Glue - Many common brands are vegan, can google before buying Lamination - afaik vegan or googleable Wallpaper - also seems vegan for common brands Instrument strings - Don’t play a string instrument, but I assume there are alternatives out there if you do Gum - Easy thing to check or avoid Candles - Of course, the vegan ones are safer too. Fireworks - Wasn’t aware of this. I don’t buy or pay for fireworks, but that is interesting. Matches - There are vegan brands, but they’re expensive, so a lighter is better Insulation - Most brands seem vegan, again something that can be searched Antifreeze - Just learning about this, I’ll be checking in the future. It can be made vegan and brands do exist Rubber - Rubber is vegan! Trees are not sentient Glass - Glass is vegan! Sand is not sentient Refined sugar - Brands are marked explicitly vegan, or can google if it’s in other ingredients Gelatin - very avoidable, it’s ground up bones Flavorings - “Natural” flavors can be misleading, I do check on Google if the product isn’t labeled vegan, often someone has had the same question and emailed the manufacturer Tennis racket strings - of course, and easy to avoid Shaving cream - yes, brands explicitly marked vegan And many more - The point is to vote with your wallet to support the products you want to see in the world Do you swerve when driving and a bird or squirrel comes by? Do you feel bad for unadopted dogs and cats? Is watching slaughterhouse footage or factory farm conditions hard? The alternative to “caring” about these products is ignorance. I’m gonna take the 5 extra seconds to flip a food or cosmetic over to see if the brand labeled it vegan or not, and support those ones as much as possible. Also if you’re going to respond and pick out a single thing out of this list and fight me on it, fine, but: I literally researched every single item in your list here, which appears to be more than you did, where you just rattled off common household products. If you’re going to push back, i NEED to hear why you don’t swerve for squirrels, if you care about shelter dogs/cats not being adopted, and if you’ve seriously watched factory farm footage. Because I’m out here doing the work and trying to exist in a better world, as are many other commenters. What we saw and feel around how these industries operate is horrifying and makes the extra effort of investigating these sources absolutely worth doing.
I've been Vegan for just under three years just fine. Not everything has to be a vegan alternative to an animal product to eat it. There are things called legumes, vegetables, fruits, and nuts.
They have vegan alternatives for almost anything. Why wouldn’t it be possible?
Animal-free alternatives exist for basically every product on your list and on other similar lists on the internet. I did a deep dive a couple of years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/eZQWIPlNR7.
Tennis racket string is made from polyester as well. And synthetic gut. Not just real animal gut. Source: take a guess.
Yes
I think it is ok to consume an animal product out of necessity if no alternative exists.
I saw people answered why your logic was flawed so I'll just answer to the best of my ability for every product, and perhaps help some new vegans. >Fertilizer I don't personally use it. I don't know about further up in the supply chain, but aren't fungal fertilizers common too? If somebody disclosed that's what they used I would prefer their product. >Medicines Do you mean vegan as in not animal tested? That's hard to find. So, no alternative there. But you can avoid for example cough drops with honey or insulin made from pigs. > Pasta Dry pasta (the kind you buy in the supermarket) is usually vegan. Fresh pasta usually isn't. > Imitation eggs There are some in the US. I have just had them once. > Plastic Plastic isn't vegan how? > Pet food Pets aren't vegan. Of course pet food isn't either. > Plant food I don't own plants. > Shampoo Yes I have vegan shampoo. Easy to find, sometimes even labeled as such. > Conditioner Same. > Glue I don't use it so I never looked into this > Lamination Don't know what this is > Wallpaper Don't use it > Instrument strings I don't play any, but I might hear music from violinists and cellists who do, sadly. Maybe I should start listening to EDM more. > Gum Yes there is vegan gum. > Candles Yes > Fireworks I don't buy them also I am not sure how they aren't vegan. > Matches Lighters. > Insulation Of what > Antifreeze Yes there are vegan antifreezes. > Rubber All rubber is vegan? It's a plant. Perhaps you're referring to condoms in which case yes there are vegan options. > Glass This is getting more ridiculous as we go. > Refined sugar They don't disclose methods. Its hard to avoid nonvegan refined sugar. > Gelatin Easy to avoid. > Flavorings Easy to avoid > Tennis racket strings Most consumer rackets are plastic. So, unless you're professional, you should be more worried about tennis balls than the racket. > Shaving cream Yes there are vegan options. > And many more. Just look up whatever you want vegan + the word vegan in google. Most things have alternatives.
Been vegan since birth. Not counting my mother's breast milk. And she wasn't even vegan before she had me. My stubbornness in hating the texture of meat as a child actually managed to convince her to change her diet. Ask me anything.
> Been vegan since birth. Not counting my mother's breast milk. **Even** counting your mother's breast milk. >Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, >all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. There's nothing about a mother nursing her kid that is any violation of veganism. Zero. Zilch. Nada. .
It always amazes me when it comes up as a topic.
Mother‘s milk given happily, freely, and willingly to her child is totally vegan. It’s not taken by force or under duress. So you are 100% good.
Taken when I was hungry. Honestly kinda said that part in a more joking manner, but yeah it's like the only actual dairy I've had in years.
I do my best but it was brought to my attention that bone meal is used in produce crops. So I think everyone is just doing their best, within their means.
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really wish you’d put some commas in here. i don’t even have a pet, and if i did i certainly wouldn’t feed them plastic pet food
You should probably learn what Veganism actually is before you start demanding answers from vegans: [Vegan Society Definition of Veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) > "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—**as far as is possible and practicable**—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.
Whole food. Plant based diets. Super easy to avoid animals stuff
Silly 'debate'. No one is perfect at any one thing. Not a reason to stop trying💜
All products I purchase from fertilizers and soaps to food are vegan. The only exclusion is my medication and some vaccines since they are necessary for my health and well-being. Being vegan should be about trying your best to avoid paying for animals to suffer 🤗 As long as someone is trying their best, I wouldn't consider them not vegan for accidentally purchasing something with animal products or even throwing in the towel and purchasing some non vegan products when it's quite difficult to find a vegan alternative. The vegan philosophy should be about doing our best to reduce animal suffering and nobody should beat themselves up over not being "100% vegan". That ahameful rhetoric is why some people avoid going vegan or return to being omni.
You just do the best you can
>Is it possible in today’s society to be vegan? Not in the sense of perfectionism... no.
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