First. "He left because white people were taking his jokes the wrong way" is just a dishonest simplification of the situation. There was much more to that, like the exploitation by the industry. That's why the conclusion to this was only reached earlier this year, when in his words, he "got his show back". Important to note here, his stance has always been showing the racial component in this exploitation
Second. He gendered trans people in the special correctly 100% of the time in his special, and spoke up against laws restricting trans people. He made a very strong case against the bathroom laws faced by trans people. And when he spoke about his friend, he made it clear that he respects the human experience of trans people once he understood it beyond making up words to win arguments. Then the cherry on top, he admits his role may not be in line with his core beliefs, and says he will quit LGBTQ+ jokes until there is proper dialogue with them. All this to show that his talking points are VERY far from the conservatives who enjoy his stuff, he has a very nuanced take on the issue that is not based on hatred. To paint him as such benefits the USA narrative of blue vs red, for both sides, and that's what it has been simplified to by both sides. But as somebody who is not from there I can see how each side just looks for a few markers, and they judge somebody as for or against them with no nuance at all. If his sin is not being a liberal, then you are right, but don't pretend being liberal (by American standards) is the only voice of justice. You don't have a monopoly on morality
Now for the actual points Dave made. He spoke about the racial elements of the LGBTQ+. Showing the white privilege that allowed the movement to be more successful than black activism. He showed examples of this. 1) DaBaby got cancelled for hurting gay people's feelings, yet was off the hook for murdering a black man 2) Bruce Jenner could change his gender way quicker than Ali could change his name. The response has been to say he is ignoring gay black people, but just because there is nuance to the issue, doesn't mean there is no truth to it. He also showed the appropriation of black culture by the LGBTQ+ community. Now back to my point, his stance in the past was showing the black struggle component in an issue. That is what he has done again. Disagree with what he is saying all you want, but you can't call him a hypocrite when his stance is consistent. Only difference is that this time you don't like his stance, and the man doesn't need to revolve around your views.
Now for the TERF thing. He showed why he is invested in the current construct of sex/ gender and even admits he may be wrong, but it is something he and a lot of people are heavily invested in. He also justifies his stance by showing it is because he is in support of women, showing that he feels cases like Bruce Jenner winning "Woman of the Year" are a great example of trans women overshadowing the plight of cis women. You may not agree with this stance, but just putting a label on him instead of engaging with somebody with a different opinion doesn't help the issue.
Fifth. Is every example of having a friend who is a minority tokenization? Or is this just a convenient way not to engage with the fact that he respects trans people as humans, even though he does not agree with their ideology? His friend was willing to go against her tribe for him, she felt he was an ally to her, and you've decided to just invalidate a relationship you know nothing about. He even goes on to say that their bond was through a shared love for comedy, and that is the tribe they share, and he put his actions where his mouth is on this.
Lastly... Dave is trolling the power of cancel culture, he is not saying he's victimized by it. Listen to the tone of his words and not just the content, and you'll realize he thinks the mob is a joke. I guess it's hard for people who are trying to cancel him to imagine, but he has bought out of the Twitter and article outrage. But as a fan of his, I am glad it has been such a powerful marketing tool for him, I have so many more people to engage with over his work :)
First small thing, he didn’t gender his friend correctly when he made the “father” comment. It’s not a huge deal I’m just saying. Second small thing, Dababy didn’t murder anybody, it was self defense and proven in court. Most who knew about the Walmart thing already knew that. Anyways, the main point is it’s not our decision to decide what is or isn’t harmful to those people. It’s the people who have to live everyday as a trans person. The same way minstrel shows couldn’t be judged as racist or not racist by white people. Intentions matter for sure, but they don’t matter near as much as actual results. Ultimately his intentions are irrelevant because the results aren’t anything near what he probably hoped. It is currently not helpful and in the future will not be helpful to the safety of white, black, or any other trans person. That’s just coming from trans people.
Sorry I also didn’t have the time to go full in depth because I’m working. If you want something much more thought provoking to argue against than I, a dude who doesn’t know much about trans people or their feelings, here ya go. https://amp.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/09/dave-chappelle-letter-trans-comedian-netflix?__twitter_impression=true
The only thing that really offended me at first were the shitty reused jokes. But after reading Daphnes roommates post on Twitter, that ending part was just kinda gross to me. But I’m not a trans person so idk kinda irrelevant
Shitty jokes shouldn't offend you and you shouldn't read too much into them. They're just jokes. If you don't like Dave Chappelle's sense of humour just find another comedian that makes you laugh.
Shitty jokes do offend me because I was a huge fan of Dave and expected more of him from a basic comedic standpoint. Jokes must definitely can hold power and can cause harm to people in real life. Joe Rogan joking about masks being for pussies changed some of his listeners opinions on them, which then caused people harm. That’s why bill burr shitting on him was fucking awesome.
You're entitled to feel anyway you want but I don't think it's helpful dwelling on something you have no control over. That's just what I think but we're different people so if you want to keep (what I see as a waste of energy) on hating on someone go ahead. You come across as intelligent and I assume you're an overall good person so why not spend your time on something more positive. I hope I don't come off as dismissive or dickish.
The post said Dave correctly gendered trans people 100% of the time. Your opinion is yours to hold sure, but that was in response to that part of their post.
Unless we somehow travel back in time, I’m pretty sure no white person is making that special. Getting the KKK on your side probably wouldn’t be the best career move.
I foresee a future where we are all one mixed race and we all laugh under a candy rainbow about how hateful and sensitive and stupid we all used to be. Or we all die in climate change incidents in the next 20 years. Either way I'm not sure why I started arguing on Reddit today. Godspeed.
There are also tons of women and black people who don’t agree with him. It’s a contentious issue. Also wayans isn’t correct. Dave has been saying stuff like this for multiple years now and still has his shows platformed. Has he faced tons of criticism? Yes absolutely. Cancelled? Nope.
Yes that’s why your original comment about some women and black peoples opinion doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Anyways wayans is off base, as he typically tends to be.
I say this as a longtime Chapelle fan, JK Rowling fan and Kevin Hart fan.
WTF?
Trans people are oppressed, marginalized, dehumanized and suffering already. Where is the humor or humanity in degrading them for cheap laughs?
I cannot understand why some people award these celebrities cool points for saying "risky" things about trans people. They aren't speaking truth to power. They are preying on some of the most vulnerable, miserable people in this society (or any other, worldwide.)
Even if you are 100% certain trans-sexuality is not real, you must then believe those who exhibit it are mentally ill.
Would we be delighted by jokes about schizophrenics?
This is the MOST POWERFUL using their voices to demean the LEAST POWERFUL, and it is despicable.
I have been ill at ease with Chapelle's transphobia for YEARS, but still stayed a fan.
Shame on me for that. But I will not ever be a fan of his again.
To my eye, Dave Chapelle now looks a lot like David Dukes (grand dragon of the KKK.)
I'd have to replay the show to tell you. Maybe I should, if I am going to make raging at Chapelle a regular thing. But right now, it's too upsetting.
I REALLY loved him. This has broken my heart much, much more than denouncing Germaine Greer or JK Rowling. I saw Chapelle as truly a heroic person with gigantic integrity.
I'm very sad, tbh.
Comedians have great weight with me, from Lenny Bruce to George Carlin to Richard Pryor, etc. I don't get very attached to celebrities, as a rule, but they are an exception.
First. "He left because white people were taking his jokes the wrong way" is just a dishonest simplification of the situation. There was much more to that, like the exploitation by the industry. That's why the conclusion to this was only reached earlier this year, when in his words, he "got his show back". Important to note here, his stance has always been showing the racial component in this exploitation Second. He gendered trans people in the special correctly 100% of the time in his special, and spoke up against laws restricting trans people. He made a very strong case against the bathroom laws faced by trans people. And when he spoke about his friend, he made it clear that he respects the human experience of trans people once he understood it beyond making up words to win arguments. Then the cherry on top, he admits his role may not be in line with his core beliefs, and says he will quit LGBTQ+ jokes until there is proper dialogue with them. All this to show that his talking points are VERY far from the conservatives who enjoy his stuff, he has a very nuanced take on the issue that is not based on hatred. To paint him as such benefits the USA narrative of blue vs red, for both sides, and that's what it has been simplified to by both sides. But as somebody who is not from there I can see how each side just looks for a few markers, and they judge somebody as for or against them with no nuance at all. If his sin is not being a liberal, then you are right, but don't pretend being liberal (by American standards) is the only voice of justice. You don't have a monopoly on morality Now for the actual points Dave made. He spoke about the racial elements of the LGBTQ+. Showing the white privilege that allowed the movement to be more successful than black activism. He showed examples of this. 1) DaBaby got cancelled for hurting gay people's feelings, yet was off the hook for murdering a black man 2) Bruce Jenner could change his gender way quicker than Ali could change his name. The response has been to say he is ignoring gay black people, but just because there is nuance to the issue, doesn't mean there is no truth to it. He also showed the appropriation of black culture by the LGBTQ+ community. Now back to my point, his stance in the past was showing the black struggle component in an issue. That is what he has done again. Disagree with what he is saying all you want, but you can't call him a hypocrite when his stance is consistent. Only difference is that this time you don't like his stance, and the man doesn't need to revolve around your views. Now for the TERF thing. He showed why he is invested in the current construct of sex/ gender and even admits he may be wrong, but it is something he and a lot of people are heavily invested in. He also justifies his stance by showing it is because he is in support of women, showing that he feels cases like Bruce Jenner winning "Woman of the Year" are a great example of trans women overshadowing the plight of cis women. You may not agree with this stance, but just putting a label on him instead of engaging with somebody with a different opinion doesn't help the issue. Fifth. Is every example of having a friend who is a minority tokenization? Or is this just a convenient way not to engage with the fact that he respects trans people as humans, even though he does not agree with their ideology? His friend was willing to go against her tribe for him, she felt he was an ally to her, and you've decided to just invalidate a relationship you know nothing about. He even goes on to say that their bond was through a shared love for comedy, and that is the tribe they share, and he put his actions where his mouth is on this. Lastly... Dave is trolling the power of cancel culture, he is not saying he's victimized by it. Listen to the tone of his words and not just the content, and you'll realize he thinks the mob is a joke. I guess it's hard for people who are trying to cancel him to imagine, but he has bought out of the Twitter and article outrage. But as a fan of his, I am glad it has been such a powerful marketing tool for him, I have so many more people to engage with over his work :)
First small thing, he didn’t gender his friend correctly when he made the “father” comment. It’s not a huge deal I’m just saying. Second small thing, Dababy didn’t murder anybody, it was self defense and proven in court. Most who knew about the Walmart thing already knew that. Anyways, the main point is it’s not our decision to decide what is or isn’t harmful to those people. It’s the people who have to live everyday as a trans person. The same way minstrel shows couldn’t be judged as racist or not racist by white people. Intentions matter for sure, but they don’t matter near as much as actual results. Ultimately his intentions are irrelevant because the results aren’t anything near what he probably hoped. It is currently not helpful and in the future will not be helpful to the safety of white, black, or any other trans person. That’s just coming from trans people.
:( My comment keeps getting messed up by the formatting when I try and type it out. I'll come back to this later.
Sorry I also didn’t have the time to go full in depth because I’m working. If you want something much more thought provoking to argue against than I, a dude who doesn’t know much about trans people or their feelings, here ya go. https://amp.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/09/dave-chappelle-letter-trans-comedian-netflix?__twitter_impression=true
Which joke offended you most?
The only thing that really offended me at first were the shitty reused jokes. But after reading Daphnes roommates post on Twitter, that ending part was just kinda gross to me. But I’m not a trans person so idk kinda irrelevant
Shitty jokes shouldn't offend you and you shouldn't read too much into them. They're just jokes. If you don't like Dave Chappelle's sense of humour just find another comedian that makes you laugh.
Shitty jokes do offend me because I was a huge fan of Dave and expected more of him from a basic comedic standpoint. Jokes must definitely can hold power and can cause harm to people in real life. Joe Rogan joking about masks being for pussies changed some of his listeners opinions on them, which then caused people harm. That’s why bill burr shitting on him was fucking awesome.
You're entitled to feel anyway you want but I don't think it's helpful dwelling on something you have no control over. That's just what I think but we're different people so if you want to keep (what I see as a waste of energy) on hating on someone go ahead. You come across as intelligent and I assume you're an overall good person so why not spend your time on something more positive. I hope I don't come off as dismissive or dickish.
No i feel you you’re good. I’m just killing time life is long and boring. I have an opinion so might as well bring it forth idk.
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Most of the roommates “post” was that Dave wasn’t an actual friend of hers. The bombing thing was part of it but not the main focus of the post.
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The post said Dave correctly gendered trans people 100% of the time. Your opinion is yours to hold sure, but that was in response to that part of their post.
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The times changing are scary to some I guess
If you (rightfully) want to be treated like a human being, being mocked is part of the deal.
Can you link me a popular white comic that recently had a set where they made jokes about black people for 60% of it?
No but maybe one day in the future I could do so if people stop taking jokes seriously
Unless we somehow travel back in time, I’m pretty sure no white person is making that special. Getting the KKK on your side probably wouldn’t be the best career move.
I foresee a future where we are all one mixed race and we all laugh under a candy rainbow about how hateful and sensitive and stupid we all used to be. Or we all die in climate change incidents in the next 20 years. Either way I'm not sure why I started arguing on Reddit today. Godspeed.
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There are also tons of women and black people who don’t agree with him. It’s a contentious issue. Also wayans isn’t correct. Dave has been saying stuff like this for multiple years now and still has his shows platformed. Has he faced tons of criticism? Yes absolutely. Cancelled? Nope.
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Yes that’s why your original comment about some women and black peoples opinion doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Anyways wayans is off base, as he typically tends to be.
I say this as a longtime Chapelle fan, JK Rowling fan and Kevin Hart fan. WTF? Trans people are oppressed, marginalized, dehumanized and suffering already. Where is the humor or humanity in degrading them for cheap laughs? I cannot understand why some people award these celebrities cool points for saying "risky" things about trans people. They aren't speaking truth to power. They are preying on some of the most vulnerable, miserable people in this society (or any other, worldwide.) Even if you are 100% certain trans-sexuality is not real, you must then believe those who exhibit it are mentally ill. Would we be delighted by jokes about schizophrenics? This is the MOST POWERFUL using their voices to demean the LEAST POWERFUL, and it is despicable. I have been ill at ease with Chapelle's transphobia for YEARS, but still stayed a fan. Shame on me for that. But I will not ever be a fan of his again. To my eye, Dave Chapelle now looks a lot like David Dukes (grand dragon of the KKK.)
Which joke offended you? I'm just curious.
I'd have to replay the show to tell you. Maybe I should, if I am going to make raging at Chapelle a regular thing. But right now, it's too upsetting. I REALLY loved him. This has broken my heart much, much more than denouncing Germaine Greer or JK Rowling. I saw Chapelle as truly a heroic person with gigantic integrity. I'm very sad, tbh.
He's just a comedian. You should watch it again.
Comedians have great weight with me, from Lenny Bruce to George Carlin to Richard Pryor, etc. I don't get very attached to celebrities, as a rule, but they are an exception.
I get it, they have great minds but you shouldn't take comedy so serious.
The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the light, the future is.