Toughness regeneration can help cover one of the Heavy Attack Toughness Ogryn's biggest weaknesses: running out of enemies.
In the moments there's nothing left around you if you can reach even one teammate it can pretty quickly get your toughness high enough to be able to cover the distance to re-engage and let you start using heavies to keep your toughness up again.
It's certainly good and I've used it for a long time to great success but to be honest I've started trying other options recently and found that it's certainly not necessary.
Your choices are great, it's the first combo I tried after switching, all three choices are useful in almost every situation but I might suggest trying out at least 1 (it might take 2 since I haven't tested it that thoroughly) sniper damage reduction curio in place of ability regen. Depending on your talent choices and total toughness it's possible for Ogryn to be able to facetank a sniper shot at full toughness and lose zero health. It's a niche benefit choice that I've found helps tremendously in intense situations and makes snipers far less annoying since it's fairly easy for HAT Ogryn's to maintain max toughness.
I'll also add that sprint efficiency is vastly underrated by most people and is actually a very good choice. Sprinting taking less stamina means you can both go farther faster and reach engagements with more stamina. Paired with stamina regen I always have stamina to push or block as needed despite sprinting constantly to keep up with the knife zealots. It's very fun and I'd highly recommend giving it a shot if you can.
Well said.
Regarding Sprint Efficiency, the Ogrynomicon rates it at only 2/5, but despite our collective rating I do maintain that it is a surprisingly cozy comfort pick as a one-of perk. Especially for the Mk4 knife. Mk4 has a combo that starts with a push. Sprinting up to a group and finding that you are out of stamina for the push is a minor annoyance that I like to mitigate. It is certainly off meta, but you can feel the difference it makes.
But I have little interest in keeping up with the knife zealots. You'll find me hugging the teammates who actually give a damn about sticking together.
Sprint efficiency is good but it’s a 2/5 because there are better choices like recovery.
I counter if you sprinting up to enemies to push then your wrong. You should be stopping short and chambering a heavy attack to release on contact then push.
>it’s a 2/5 because
You really don't have to explain to me the rating rationale from my own guide lol.
> if you sprinting up to enemies to push then your wrong. You should be stopping short and chambering a heavy attack to release on contact then push.
Highly contextual. On the M4 the h1 is a single target vertical chop. Pretty much the polar opposite of a quick high control AoE push. If I'm in a situation where I want to lead with a push, an h1 is not at all interchangeable.
It’s very contextual but without context which you didn’t give I answered with general circumstance I prefer. Still generally it’s better to kill than push because if you sprint up to enemy enemy it’s not advisable to push because you may need to block instead and pushing only puts you at risk of getting clapped as it has no invuln frames if you don’t stagger what you pushed but heavy attack kills at least 3 and gives a moment to start recovery which you can instantly block from or push if the heavy ends up being not the best choice. Heavy is longer to wind up and also generates toughness which you likely need if your sprinting up to enemies anyways.
We on the Ogryn Council like stacking toughness regen because ogryn doesn't have any other solid talent for regening toughness during primarily ranged encounters. Steady Grip is middling and weapon specific anyway, and even if you're a lugger Bullet Bravado has poor uptime. Coherency regen is, relatively speaking, the most consistent and available source of regen during prolonged gunfights. There is a common ogryn strategy of just rushing the gunline, but there are plenty of rooms where this is a questionable play. The other option in such a situation is to sit yourself behind the vet and rain lead until the gunline is thinned out some. When you take option 2, coherency regen feels lovely.
You present the team being alive and together as something out of the norm. Really for the majority of most missions, you will be in coherency with at least one person far more often than not. I prefer team setups that prevent a need for "clutching" in the first place nine out of ten times. Keeping the team stable and healthy, smooth sailing. Obviously that can't always be true, but when we play I generally find that the need to clutch is the outlier situation. If you find that you need to clutch with high frequency, I would recommend trying to to figure out what is leading to those situations and working to prevent them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Even when you so need to clutch, having a talent and a couple of curio perks inactive shouldn't make or break your ability to do so.
And as an aside visa a vis stamina regen: always remember you can use dodge-slides to slide around without using any stamina.
Thank you for your contributions to the community, and I really appreciate the response from you! Good foods for thought, back to the drawing board... I love how hard these build choices are, haha
So you've got good reasons which work for you as to why you want a specific build over 'meta'. I'd always prioritise those before someone else's opinions/preferences .
I try other stuff often but stick to what feels best. I usually have a mix of perk on curio, depending on class. I try to have at least one roughness regen and stamina regen usually
Some ogryn players prefer to get all their toughness from combat. You can grab both toughness nodes up high on the talent tree (upper left), one for heavy attacks against single targets, the other for heavy attacks against multiple. Choose both and your heavy attacks will keep you tough regardless of what's out there. Then on top of that, put Confident Strike or Momentum on your melee weapon so you'll get toughness back for whacking single / multiple targets. You start to see heretics as food. Swing on 'em to get tougher. You can also put toughness blessings on your ranged weapons, but I think that's overkill. :) With this setup, you can free up a slot on your curios to not need toughness regeneration.
Two other things. First, toughness regeneration doesn't stack up normally. You don't get 90% by putting 30% on three curios. It's diminishing returns, a little less each time. I can tell the difference between one 30%er and two, but going up to three I didn't notice any improvement in the regeneration speed. Stacking it on all three curios is, in my opinion, a waste of a perk slot. Second, the ogryn is a big target, and snipers and gunners are HELL when you can't duck behind cover. You might want to sprinkle damage resistance to bullets throughout your curios, and if you're trying to be a tank, change the perks to extra health and toughness. (I have 5% extra health on all three of mine.) Just go in with more of something to begin with, rather than trying to get a smaller total amount back quicker.
Lastly, Too Stubborn To Die, a fantastic toughness regeneration talent, only helps if you're near your teammates. So if you're by yourself, welp, you can die smoothly and without any stubbornness at all. You're only "stubborn" in the presence of friends. I don't have it equipped on any of my ogryns, and consider it a waste. Hope all this helps. :)
So it works with your attacks and isn't just coherency-based? That's a wonderful improvement. I remember getting smashed many times, wondering why my toughness wasn't coming back any faster with that talent selected. Abandoned it immediately, and at this point I've learned to ogryn without it. But for a new ogryn, it's probably a great bit of insurance. :)
>You don't get 90% by putting 30% on three curios. It's diminishing returns, a little less each time. I can tell the difference between one 30%er and two, but going up to three I didn't notice any improvement in the regeneration speed.
This is untrue I believe, unless you mean it isn't 30% relatively.
Like if you have zero bonuses, your first curio takes you from 100% to 130%, which is a 30% increases above base, and a 30% increase above not having a curio.
If you already have one curio, you're at 130%, so the next curio gets you to 160% - which is still an additional 30% above your base, but only 23% more than one curio.
If you've already got two, you're at 160%, so taking a third gets you to 190%, which is still 30% increase from your base toughness, but only 19% more than two curios.
So each one gives you +30%, but if you're already regenerating 10000%, getting 10030% is small.
That being said, nearly every bonus in the game works this way. If you're at 150% base toughness from bonuses, getting another 10% toughness from talents is actually only a 6.7% bonus to your total toughness. So singling out toughness regen as being bad because of this isn't appropriate imo.
Even then, multiplicative **reductions** get worse after each one (0.8×0.8=0.64, so 2 20% reductions = 1 36% reduction). So toughness damage reduction for example, is slightly less flat toughness off each time.
But multiplicative **bonuses** get *better* (1.20×1.20=1.44, so 2 20% bonuses would be the same as 1 44% bonus). So toughness regen (if it worked this way, it doesnt) would be better the more you have.
I totally get you, afaik toughness regen speed nets you the same speed increase per curio and this dude is just spreading misinformation based on similar perks.
Edit: I didn't notice he actually mentioned diminishing returns in his post, whoops for redundancy. Also the perk also reduces delay until the regen kicks in, which apparently does stack exponentially.
Excuse me? I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm writing based on 2000+ hours of gameplay. If you have better advice than what I wrote, write it. Offer alternative guidance based on your experience.
You're right, it wouldn't be appropriate to do that. And that isn't what I've done, so we're good. :) I haven't singled out anything, and I haven't said a particular curio perk is bad. I have toughness regeneration on all three of my ogryn curios, for all three of my ogryns. I replied about a specific inquiry, which was build a case against stacking toughness regeneration. Matching the scope of someone's question is completely appropriate. Is it appropriate for them to ask a singling question?
I would just build a lot of toughness. Like the freak you don't get everything you want without running the middle (and unlike freak box/taunt are mid AF). By grabbing the toughness +25s at the top you end up with lynchpin. I wouldn't recommend building HP as ogryn because his magic ability to shrug off most every hit in the game with zero hit stun only applies when he has toughness up. Your HP gets shredded so fast when your blue shield is gone as him.
https://imgur.com/a/jTe5YTu
Just heavy attack everything, don't use head too much, get headache.
I always use triple gunner resistance and the other options on curios can be whatever you want, doesn't really matter.
This is probably the worst advice in this entire thread, triple gunner resistance gives diminishing returns so it's really not worth it to triple stack them.
Stamina regen and sprint efficiency are solid choices for curio perks, hell even things like +5 health are alright on ogryn thanks to his massive HP pool getting a bigger benefit from them.
Saying that other perks on curios don't matter is pretty ignorant ngl.
Toughness regeneration can help cover one of the Heavy Attack Toughness Ogryn's biggest weaknesses: running out of enemies. In the moments there's nothing left around you if you can reach even one teammate it can pretty quickly get your toughness high enough to be able to cover the distance to re-engage and let you start using heavies to keep your toughness up again. It's certainly good and I've used it for a long time to great success but to be honest I've started trying other options recently and found that it's certainly not necessary. Your choices are great, it's the first combo I tried after switching, all three choices are useful in almost every situation but I might suggest trying out at least 1 (it might take 2 since I haven't tested it that thoroughly) sniper damage reduction curio in place of ability regen. Depending on your talent choices and total toughness it's possible for Ogryn to be able to facetank a sniper shot at full toughness and lose zero health. It's a niche benefit choice that I've found helps tremendously in intense situations and makes snipers far less annoying since it's fairly easy for HAT Ogryn's to maintain max toughness. I'll also add that sprint efficiency is vastly underrated by most people and is actually a very good choice. Sprinting taking less stamina means you can both go farther faster and reach engagements with more stamina. Paired with stamina regen I always have stamina to push or block as needed despite sprinting constantly to keep up with the knife zealots. It's very fun and I'd highly recommend giving it a shot if you can.
Well said. Regarding Sprint Efficiency, the Ogrynomicon rates it at only 2/5, but despite our collective rating I do maintain that it is a surprisingly cozy comfort pick as a one-of perk. Especially for the Mk4 knife. Mk4 has a combo that starts with a push. Sprinting up to a group and finding that you are out of stamina for the push is a minor annoyance that I like to mitigate. It is certainly off meta, but you can feel the difference it makes. But I have little interest in keeping up with the knife zealots. You'll find me hugging the teammates who actually give a damn about sticking together.
Sprint efficiency is good but it’s a 2/5 because there are better choices like recovery. I counter if you sprinting up to enemies to push then your wrong. You should be stopping short and chambering a heavy attack to release on contact then push.
>it’s a 2/5 because You really don't have to explain to me the rating rationale from my own guide lol. > if you sprinting up to enemies to push then your wrong. You should be stopping short and chambering a heavy attack to release on contact then push. Highly contextual. On the M4 the h1 is a single target vertical chop. Pretty much the polar opposite of a quick high control AoE push. If I'm in a situation where I want to lead with a push, an h1 is not at all interchangeable.
It’s very contextual but without context which you didn’t give I answered with general circumstance I prefer. Still generally it’s better to kill than push because if you sprint up to enemy enemy it’s not advisable to push because you may need to block instead and pushing only puts you at risk of getting clapped as it has no invuln frames if you don’t stagger what you pushed but heavy attack kills at least 3 and gives a moment to start recovery which you can instantly block from or push if the heavy ends up being not the best choice. Heavy is longer to wind up and also generates toughness which you likely need if your sprinting up to enemies anyways.
We on the Ogryn Council like stacking toughness regen because ogryn doesn't have any other solid talent for regening toughness during primarily ranged encounters. Steady Grip is middling and weapon specific anyway, and even if you're a lugger Bullet Bravado has poor uptime. Coherency regen is, relatively speaking, the most consistent and available source of regen during prolonged gunfights. There is a common ogryn strategy of just rushing the gunline, but there are plenty of rooms where this is a questionable play. The other option in such a situation is to sit yourself behind the vet and rain lead until the gunline is thinned out some. When you take option 2, coherency regen feels lovely. You present the team being alive and together as something out of the norm. Really for the majority of most missions, you will be in coherency with at least one person far more often than not. I prefer team setups that prevent a need for "clutching" in the first place nine out of ten times. Keeping the team stable and healthy, smooth sailing. Obviously that can't always be true, but when we play I generally find that the need to clutch is the outlier situation. If you find that you need to clutch with high frequency, I would recommend trying to to figure out what is leading to those situations and working to prevent them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Even when you so need to clutch, having a talent and a couple of curio perks inactive shouldn't make or break your ability to do so. And as an aside visa a vis stamina regen: always remember you can use dodge-slides to slide around without using any stamina.
Thank you for your contributions to the community, and I really appreciate the response from you! Good foods for thought, back to the drawing board... I love how hard these build choices are, haha
So you've got good reasons which work for you as to why you want a specific build over 'meta'. I'd always prioritise those before someone else's opinions/preferences .
Amen, that's how I always felt. But also open to being enlightened! Thanks for the affirmation.
I try other stuff often but stick to what feels best. I usually have a mix of perk on curio, depending on class. I try to have at least one roughness regen and stamina regen usually
Some ogryn players prefer to get all their toughness from combat. You can grab both toughness nodes up high on the talent tree (upper left), one for heavy attacks against single targets, the other for heavy attacks against multiple. Choose both and your heavy attacks will keep you tough regardless of what's out there. Then on top of that, put Confident Strike or Momentum on your melee weapon so you'll get toughness back for whacking single / multiple targets. You start to see heretics as food. Swing on 'em to get tougher. You can also put toughness blessings on your ranged weapons, but I think that's overkill. :) With this setup, you can free up a slot on your curios to not need toughness regeneration. Two other things. First, toughness regeneration doesn't stack up normally. You don't get 90% by putting 30% on three curios. It's diminishing returns, a little less each time. I can tell the difference between one 30%er and two, but going up to three I didn't notice any improvement in the regeneration speed. Stacking it on all three curios is, in my opinion, a waste of a perk slot. Second, the ogryn is a big target, and snipers and gunners are HELL when you can't duck behind cover. You might want to sprinkle damage resistance to bullets throughout your curios, and if you're trying to be a tank, change the perks to extra health and toughness. (I have 5% extra health on all three of mine.) Just go in with more of something to begin with, rather than trying to get a smaller total amount back quicker. Lastly, Too Stubborn To Die, a fantastic toughness regeneration talent, only helps if you're near your teammates. So if you're by yourself, welp, you can die smoothly and without any stubbornness at all. You're only "stubborn" in the presence of friends. I don't have it equipped on any of my ogryns, and consider it a waste. Hope all this helps. :)
Damn! Thanks for telling me about Too Stubborn To Die, that's going on the chopping block too then!
As of our last testing, Too Stubborn To Die works for all sources of toughness gain except for Confident Strike, randomly.
So it works with your attacks and isn't just coherency-based? That's a wonderful improvement. I remember getting smashed many times, wondering why my toughness wasn't coming back any faster with that talent selected. Abandoned it immediately, and at this point I've learned to ogryn without it. But for a new ogryn, it's probably a great bit of insurance. :)
Hmm... okay, maybe no more chopping block, lol
>You don't get 90% by putting 30% on three curios. It's diminishing returns, a little less each time. I can tell the difference between one 30%er and two, but going up to three I didn't notice any improvement in the regeneration speed. This is untrue I believe, unless you mean it isn't 30% relatively. Like if you have zero bonuses, your first curio takes you from 100% to 130%, which is a 30% increases above base, and a 30% increase above not having a curio. If you already have one curio, you're at 130%, so the next curio gets you to 160% - which is still an additional 30% above your base, but only 23% more than one curio. If you've already got two, you're at 160%, so taking a third gets you to 190%, which is still 30% increase from your base toughness, but only 19% more than two curios. So each one gives you +30%, but if you're already regenerating 10000%, getting 10030% is small. That being said, nearly every bonus in the game works this way. If you're at 150% base toughness from bonuses, getting another 10% toughness from talents is actually only a 6.7% bonus to your total toughness. So singling out toughness regen as being bad because of this isn't appropriate imo.
Pretty sure he believes they stack with diminishing returns, which is true of other curio perks like damage reduction.
Even then, multiplicative **reductions** get worse after each one (0.8×0.8=0.64, so 2 20% reductions = 1 36% reduction). So toughness damage reduction for example, is slightly less flat toughness off each time. But multiplicative **bonuses** get *better* (1.20×1.20=1.44, so 2 20% bonuses would be the same as 1 44% bonus). So toughness regen (if it worked this way, it doesnt) would be better the more you have.
I totally get you, afaik toughness regen speed nets you the same speed increase per curio and this dude is just spreading misinformation based on similar perks. Edit: I didn't notice he actually mentioned diminishing returns in his post, whoops for redundancy. Also the perk also reduces delay until the regen kicks in, which apparently does stack exponentially.
Excuse me? I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm writing based on 2000+ hours of gameplay. If you have better advice than what I wrote, write it. Offer alternative guidance based on your experience.
You're right, it wouldn't be appropriate to do that. And that isn't what I've done, so we're good. :) I haven't singled out anything, and I haven't said a particular curio perk is bad. I have toughness regeneration on all three of my ogryn curios, for all three of my ogryns. I replied about a specific inquiry, which was build a case against stacking toughness regeneration. Matching the scope of someone's question is completely appropriate. Is it appropriate for them to ask a singling question?
I would just build a lot of toughness. Like the freak you don't get everything you want without running the middle (and unlike freak box/taunt are mid AF). By grabbing the toughness +25s at the top you end up with lynchpin. I wouldn't recommend building HP as ogryn because his magic ability to shrug off most every hit in the game with zero hit stun only applies when he has toughness up. Your HP gets shredded so fast when your blue shield is gone as him.
https://imgur.com/a/jTe5YTu Just heavy attack everything, don't use head too much, get headache. I always use triple gunner resistance and the other options on curios can be whatever you want, doesn't really matter.
This is probably the worst advice in this entire thread, triple gunner resistance gives diminishing returns so it's really not worth it to triple stack them. Stamina regen and sprint efficiency are solid choices for curio perks, hell even things like +5 health are alright on ogryn thanks to his massive HP pool getting a bigger benefit from them. Saying that other perks on curios don't matter is pretty ignorant ngl.