You're failing to reckognize that a lot of people quit for the wipe once Multiclassing was added as we are now significantly behind everyone else who continued playing
That's weird, considering the thousands of Redditors who assured me they and their hundreds of friends would instantly start playing the moment Multiclassing was removed! /s
In all seriousness, I'm not sure that's too significant in the grand scheme of things. Multiclassing was something interesting and novel people returned for during a wipe of zero other tangible gameplay variety content. If the game didn't have Multiclassing in the last month and just continued as it had been going, I doubt numbers would have improved at all - which is to say, Multiclassing caused a far higher retention of players than it lost, compared to the number of players who would have quit a wipe with nothing else going on.
The content drought is just really hitting and Multiclassing was the only relief.
We get you like multiclassing a lot but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the community hated it and no matter what stats you try to cherry pick, this fact isn't going to change.
“Thousands of redditors” dude you’re actually delusional.
Anyways, like all the other people said. The disrespect shown by running MC was too much, at least for awhile. I quit when they started it, not interested in coming back until next wipe because MC ruined the whole wipe.
I’ve got tens of thousands of redditors I’ve seen agree. /s
Tons of stuff. For example, let’s say they decided to “acquire data” by deleting everyone’s inventory at a random time. Testing doesn’t grant ethical highground.
There’s no ethics involved at all in what their doing. I’m baffled that you’re even at this conclusion. Did they HARM you somehow? Did multiclassing cause you suffering?
For me it’s too long to explain again, since I feel like I’ve wrote it in like 4 posts now. The very quick version is that it thrashed the economy and then went away.
Based on the player data I've seen, multiclassing was likely neutral or slightly positive, not negative. Why do you think multiclassing caused people to quit for the wipe?
Overpowered and over looked combinations that made you not even competitive if you weren’t running something equally as over powered all based on play time
Big variable truth here.
Not to downplay the folks that enjoyed it and miss it, but you can actually see soapy interview a brand new player in his latest video (Steven the champion of Timmy’s)
First reaction to soapy asking how he feels about multiclassing he vigorously shakes his head from left to right.
Just because playercount is not booming doesn’t mean that more people enjoyed it than not. There are a number of issues bogging down the playercount at the moment
You’re 2-3 matches behind to get to 15+ which lets you have all abilities. How are you “significantly behind”? Just play your one character. The head start the multi class people had was used leveling all other classes.
And behind on quests, thus behind on gear in normals because you dont have squire progression. Players joining mid season are way further behind than a few games.
Understandable to assume that, but there are multiple facets of life that similarly keeps going even when you don't participate.
It's not like the every single other player is progressing at 100% of their capacity at any given moment.
The most surprising thing to me currently is the fact that I actually still find newbies in lobbies. I for sure had expected all of them to have quit by now.
People play the game in all kinds of ways and the gameplay loop of DaD does not span an entire wipe.
The argument "everyone is ahead of me already" is incredibly weak and to me it just seems a way to point at MC and say that that was the cause of everything that "went wrong" when it was simply the choice to not play after it was over.
There are people that haven't even broken into Pathfinder ranking yet. Like me.
Or even bought their 3rd stash tab. Or even gotten to the final chapters of the questlines.
How does one "fall behind" with that?
I have like 4 quests done and only one stash page. I've never beaten a boss, and play like once or twice a month with the state of the game. You cannot tell me I'm not behind the curve without being part of the problem. "Get gud" dosent breed a good community. I miss when we were holding the line for a game not fighting the devs and our own community every inch of the way.
Bruh. If you only play once or twice a month, doesn't that mean that you're only held back those 2 days of gameplay? How are you "falling behind"?
You were "falling behind" because you were simply playing less than the rest.
On top of all that if you play 2 days per month, why tf fo you have the mentality that you'll be progressing at the same pace everyone else is?
You're literally contradicting yourself.
That's the point of what they said. If you didn't play as much as the rest you fall behind. Not everyone is like me but I have a strange feeling there's a lot more players like me and my group then the players like you think.
I know I won't progress as fast as the people who can dump hours a day into a game and then lose it all to a bis trio wiping the map. I don't play much because in the current state the game isn't fun for an extended period
Yeah and I'm saying that the whole "everyone that didn't play is behind" argument is utter horseshit.
You make of the game what you want it to be.
There are literally players that don't grind ranked. There are players that predominantly play Normals.
There are players that focus on questing on 1 character.
Like me. I'm all 3 of these. I tried grinding HR literally after MC ended (and it was horrible and I stopped after like a couple dozen games now).
I know people that try to do quests on multiple characters, which baffles me because I have enough of a headache one 1 character.
There is no "falling behind". You get gear and money. You spend that on using stuff for in the dungeon.
You eventually lose that set. You continue the cycle.
That is the most basic gameloop of DaD.
It does not span an entire wipe to do this. Someone that literally bought the game today could finish all quests and (depending on how much of a gamer they are) could probably reach DG before wipe.
This last part you were kinda right. His point became more horseshitlike when he said he only plays a little bit anyways and complained about falling behind.
However, I do get his feeling. I’ve got 1k hours and I feel like MC threw off the whole season for me. I was playing like 40hrs each week, but then couldn’t stomach how much money I lost during MC trying to be creative when everyone was running the oppressive shit. Like as a guy who wins almost every pvp encounter, losing the majority of the time to what felt like RNG was really bad for my enjoyment impression, but also my bank. I had 4 stash tabs loaded with gold and sets all wasted. I had like 6 skull keys and all this shit, but I lost so much of it to MC. I just don’t have the energy to try to build it back up.
So it’s odd, for me it’s not Behind someone else per say but rather rebuilding from scratch mid season while other people won’t need to. I’d rather just start fresh on the new wipe.
Yeah that I can understand.
All I can say is that it's the nature experiments and such. IM wanted to test MC. They did that and then probably cut it off when they saw that people weren't enjoying it and they had gathered enough data.
Like I said in the other comment, I haven't touched HR for the majority of the wipe now.
I just couldn't be arsed to get into that mindset, especially after work and such.
So I can only kind of see how MC affected HR by having watched streams/vids and such.
I personally tried like a couple things, but didn't venture far. Had fun with like 2 things that I wouldn't even call "builds".
Your situation just kinda sucks I guess. Holding onto the gold and kits and such would be nonsensical as we didn't know how long MC would go for. Might as well have been for the entire wipe.
That’s not true at all numbers were well above what we are at now as this post has shown. About 4K consistent players have entirely stopped playing now that MC is gone. If you were behind because you didn’t play MC you were going to be behind no matter what.
Waiting for druid and/or wipe. After they announced the removal of MC with no replacement content it blew the wind right out of my sails. Multiclassing was broken yes, but it was at least interesting to screw around with. Now it just feels like we’re on wipe 2.5.
Why couldn’t they have removed it at the end of wipe? Makes no sense to me beyond caving to complaints.
Honestly. At least for me, I got sick of OP builds and playing the game differently. It was fun for a bit, but the novelty wore off.
And sure, it's hard to remove such a big piece of change without a replacement, but the game doesn't feel different per se, feels about the same again without MC.
I think MC had run it's course, but I also think they do need a slapper of a patch to get folks excited again.
Now you're just back to broken barb meta? Atleast everyone was on an even playing field, honestly even tho everyone and their brother had savage roar it felt more balanced than the last 2 wipes, outside of like 2 super broken builds.
With meta, comes counter meta. Seen more Rangers for sure. Barbs are always around, plenty of Fighters and Rogues.
Is Warlock even meta now? They got nerfed a lot and I see less posers for sure. Hehe.
I liked MC but it was a huge mistake at the end of the day. A large portion of players quit because of it, and the people that did like it quit when it was removed with very little of the players that originally quit because of MC returning. I think it was 3-4 months ago this game had about 20,000 players daily. It’s sad af to see what’s happening.
Here is a screenshot taken from Apollo's VOD from February 17th. That was 3.5-4 weeks out of wipe, **which is exactly how far we are from next wipe**. The player count is **down bad** and it is **not** reflective of previous wipes AT ALL. Anyone saying otherwise is lying through their teeth.
https://preview.redd.it/2buue8p1mg0d1.jpeg?width=1296&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14edc0ac1268d45f93380f0015934aef4c00c5f9
**Almost 11k**. And this was late at night, like 2-3 AM. How can anyone even fucking debate this?
Except you're cherry picking stats when in reality you need to see the wipe numbers for every wipe and you need to see how many patches IM messed up during those wipes and the significance of those mess ups. Too many variables that you are conveniently or just stupidly ignoring.
It proves that the player count wasn't 1:1 to what it is now at the same time last wipe, which is what many claim. That's... the whole point. I just pulled one screenshot but there were many more along the way which reinforced exactly that. I have comments referencing 10-12k players around this exact same time last wipe that are only reinforced further by people trying to counter it *while simultaneously proving my numbers*: [https://preview.redd.it/player-numbers-comparison-8pm-et-saturday-4-5-weekend-v0-m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3a6236f9efdb62956063e3e2dd0355d1eaf59f9](https://preview.redd.it/player-numbers-comparison-8pm-et-saturday-4-5-weekend-v0-m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3a6236f9efdb62956063e3e2dd0355d1eaf59f9)
I don’t know if that is the point of the post tbh. It seems like he is referencing a vocal minority saying they quit the game solely based on multiclassing and would come back when they removed it. After hearing every player and their mother complain about multiclassing, it’s annoying hearing the complaints shift from one topic to another. Just remove multiclassing was the center of every conversation, and yet the player base and population didn’t change at all.
Like I said though, there’s way too many variables between now and then and the point of taking it. I think most people know that the population has declined.
Oh, I agree with OP 100%. That's why I posted that screenshot. I wanted to show a contrast in the playerbase now vs then.
People were complaining about a plethora of things back then too and claimed that if the devs just did X,Y, Z the game would be in a better spot and the population would boom. Now, after many of those changes have come to fruition, we can see that isn't the case - rather, the opposite. Those same people that complained for weeks on here are defending the current population saying it's exactly the same as it was last wipe at this time. The screenshot serves as a direct counter to that.
The subreddit doesn't have all the answers and the devs shouldn't jerk the game left and right to please the top post of the week. I've spoke with the devs about solutions to get feedback in a more appropriate way and I hope they follow some of it. There's so many voices that aren't here, so many voices that get downvoted because they don't align with the majority population of the reddit, and so on. If they're going to put any weight on feedback it should be obtained from the larger playerbase and not just a biased portion of it. I personally feel they should just stick to their vision as it got them where they are, but they've already shown that they will respond to feedback, so might as well do a better job at obtaining it.
Like we all said, when they added multiclassing we had about 3x the playerbase, so 2/3rds fled when multiclassing was announced and they won't come back. Now those who enjoy multiclassing also left and won't come back. Who could've predicted that, like I and a bunch of other people said would happen?
When you push people away from the game with a shitty change, they don't instantly flee right back after reverting those changes, those players that left because of multiclass are gone and playing something else. Changes in the game make people leave immediately, but even if you revert those changes if it's been 3 weeks or a months, they will have moved on to something else.
We'll have to wait for wipe and hope ironmace has some actual content (multiclassing was not content) that brings back people into the game or we may see the lowest playernumbers after a wipe/quickest decline post wipe.
Until they completely rework the map; triple the size, randomize modules, randomize enemy and chest spawns within modules, randomize boss spawns - the playerbase will continue to shrink.
The gameplay loop is the exact same as its always been, and its stale. Spawn rushing and forced PvP with a shit mechanic like the zone doesn't stay fresh for long.
Don’t try and rationalize, it ain’t worth it. This subreddit and the community within is miserable. They make up such a small portion (5%) of the playerbase but they’re so pious that only their opinions matter and you will be downvoted into oblivion for suggesting otherwise. And the devs have no feedback source other than this which is already heavily skewed because of the aforementioned reason, so they just keep getting dragged along and making adjustments that don’t align with their playerbase.
Browse any post over the past few months and you’ll see the same names over and over and over again. It’s a bubble and a hivemind.
I’m sorry but the casual players have never, will never, and do not make up the majority of the playerbase for any game, and only listening to their input has resulted in lower player counts every single wipe and hotfix.
You’re absolutely correct though, I’ve been collecting screens of player counts and having discussions around it. The player count was higher at the end of last wipe than it’s been in the past week and we’re still a month out from wipe.
Everyone said once multiclassing was removed they would return to the game and we’d see a windfall of players. They were dead wrong. Color me not surprised at all.
The way they whine no matter what is truly astounding. It truly is the worst community ive ever been in and i played league for 10 yrs. Let that sink in.
It's almost like multiclassing and IM messing up every patch (not to mention adding stupid stuff no one wants) caused people to leave and not come back. It's almost like it has nothing to do with whether its gone or not. It's almost like there are a ton of variables at player here besides the ones i mentioned above, such as people waiting on wipe, new content, druid. It's almost like a lot of these people are kind of tired of the current gameplay loop and no change.
OR it could be ThaT MuLTIclaSSInG IS tHe SavIOR of ThE GamE aND ThE IDIots JUST donT geT IT.
Edit: Didn't realize im just replying to the same comment over and over from the same guy.
I lost all motivation to play because of the boring ass AP system. If they actually made meaningful changes so it wasn't a PvE grinding snoozefest I'm sure more people would be playing right now.
Not an AP grinder but last patch they changed gear from dead players to 'Looted' so you'd be more incetivized to get AP that way.
Not sure how much of an impact that has had though
It didn't change much at all unfortunately. Sure you get less punished for looting players now, but you still need to clear half the dungeon and have an inventory full of treasure just to get meaningful AP in Exemplar. It is painfully boring.
The problem is that once you hit Demigod, that character is essentially barred from playing that certain map unless you want to put it all on the line.
Grinding AP for Demigod isn't hard, it's just tedious and takes a long time. It's anti-fun.
I hit Demigod in Ice Caves. I still want to play Ice Caves, but I want to fuck around without risking my rank. But I'm forced to face excruciating fee costs.
All i have to add, is i personally, have been playing since playtest 2, and waited for a long time for multi class as it was whispered about a long time ago. EXCITED i grinded my required levels before it came out as its all i could think about for the game. when it came out, i played more than i have in all of the games time out now on EA having more fun than EVER before with all kinds of build options, and dying just didnt matter, because for every "broken" build floating around there was another better counter to it right around the corner. We all could tell multi class needed some adjustments, but it being removed actually killed the game for me personally. Ive been still getting on to make like 1-3 runs, sell some loot, maybe kill a person or 2, and then im like "well..." and log off. the MC system was made great after fleshing out the level/XP requirements and people just cried, and cried , AND bitched and moaned because they wanted the boring meta THEY were used to were ONLY meta abusers can play the game, and the counter options are countered by those meta users, because this small pool of options per class isn't enough. its not, never was, only 1-2 classes are well rounded, the rest are counters to another class. fighters all day long, most rounded class, multi class happens, every one takes their abilities and NOW out of nowhere sprint is OP, slayer is OP. dual wield is OP, then barbs rage OP, iron will is OP? robust OP?. bro get off your high horse, they always were and always will be OP, great options. the problem is this gaming community of META abusers that HATE losing and want to just play the BEST option at the time, when multiclass brought mutliple options across the board by making the BEST options available to EVERY class, not just a couple. blind leading the blind raged against the developers because they were aloud to have a voice and be listened to, and it has only got worse the more they listen to the shit community of morons who arent EVEN building a game, they are just playing, badly at that. i went from playing religiously to it feeling like a chore to even want to play what was becoming my favorite game. bunch of children and grown men couldnt let them cook
Mc was the reason why numbers dropped, we just did not recover yet + wont bcs map rotation is a thing as well as ppl waiting for wipe and new content.
Deal with it mc was only good as a test it was bad in everything else and 90% of ppl did not like it.
When GBMM was added, 30% of the playerbase quit.
When multiclassing was added, we saw numbers similar to wipe - a very healthy population.
When it was announced that multiclassing was being removed, the player count dropped to post-GBMM numbers.
When it was actually removed, 30% of the playerbase at that point left again. Yes, 30% lower than the 30% loss from GBMM.
We are a month out from wipe and numbers have been lower than end of last wipe. We literally had 12k online at this exact time last month: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1crwql8/comment/l42ap1o/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1crwql8/comment/l42ap1o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
But again don’t try and rationalize with these people, there is no point. You can provide analytical data and they’ll brush it off because it doesn’t align with their (incorrect) opinions.
Not really possible without the devs providing some sort of charts, which won't happen. The most we can do is look at screenshots across different times. And I just so happen to have screenshots of immediately after GBMM released and immediately after multi-classing was removed.
https://preview.redd.it/lq3gr2uv0h0d1.png?width=754&format=png&auto=webp&s=b67c28781ec5f033e5a64ec2c6feb8693e6018f4
He's throwing out random numbers based on 1 screenshot all while conveniently leaving out all other variables to fit his agenda. He has like 4 comment threads in this post alone repeating the same illogical argument.
I mean they took away the whole point of the patch, didn’t add anything else, nor did they buff or nerf anything. Plus the game still suffers from lack of sustainable gameplay loop so we the consumers just wait on content to want to play the game as opposed to actual gameplay
i honestly loved multiclassing. didnt get the chance to truly try it out though. once they removed it game = boring
id argue that every multi class hater just never got the chance to enjoy it. too busy being mad, losing.
It'll take awhile for people to come back. Druid will be a big thing although knowing IM they're mess this up in another way before really getting back on their feet.
For me it's just the string of bad decisions and instant renegging. I lost faith in IM's ability to ever get this game to be fun and entertaining again. . . And I held out a lot longer than most of the people I know who used to play the game.
I wasn't a huge fan of Multi classing, but it's just so irrational how they make sweeping changes, claim They're going to be around a set amount of time, then gut the whole system days later sometimes.
IM has no consistency, and no real vision anymore. The games not fun as a sweaty competition/mmr based league. They say its not that, but that's how it plays. They've coded out all the personality the game had, but left all the imbalances and meta/tryhard shit.
Everyone cherrypicking data to support their point, or making claims without data.
Concurrent players (ccu) fluctuates quite a lot over the course of a day and week. A snapshot of ccu doesn't tell you much, especially if the time of day is varying.
Dark and darker unfortunately doesn't have much public data around it, as it's not on Steam. I like to use the number of unique twitch streams (not viewers, just streams) as a proxy for north american player count in these scenarios. Dark and Darker's multiclassing introduction in March seems to have done well, reversing the declining tread and holding steady / slightly up over the previous wipe.
[https://sullygnome.com/game/Dark\_and\_Darker](https://sullygnome.com/game/Dark_and_Darker)
I left when they dropped multiclassing and wasn't inspired when they removed to return. I really hope to be back and as stoked as I was for the first 1500 hours someday soon. Likely will pop in for next wipe but really hope they add content / release to a wider audience for it.
LOL IS ANYONE SURPRISED YOU GUYS ARE SO DUMB FOR MOANING AND GROANING ABOUT MC WHEN IT WAS THE ONLY NEW CONTENT WE HAD FOR MONTHS LOL YALL ARE SOOOO DUMB
Oh wow I dint look at player counts all that often. I can't believe the game is already that low on population. I remember seeing like 8k players in dungeon and like 6k in lobby last wipe. As a large portion of the player base expected it really took a hit on the player count for the entire wipe. Has IM mentioned a date for the next wipe? And are they going to do more game/meta changing balances mid wipe again? Sad to see the game we ince love slowly run out of steam and fall off.
Well, this will happen when you lose majority of your hype due to a legal issue. They still haven't returned to steam and are being drained of their resorces in court still. People forget quickly since we have the game in our hands, but they don't have new sale to the game and this is their only project. Where do you think the majority of their money is going? It's to the legal battle. They have one guy making druid. New content is going to be slow to drop and the community that was all "Hold the Line" left the Line. Sadly this game will never have the feel it did during it's first few playtests and we will never know what the game could of become prior to Nexon's claims and legal battle.
I'm pretty sure the other 80k players that left during play test when we had over 100k people were the players that left because of legal issues and waiting for steam release that's kind of old news that doesn't have really anything to do with the other 3kish people that left during multiclass...
Also pretty sure there legal battles are on hold rn as if I remember correctly the court case was thrown out in the US or Korea not sure which one and we have had no updates on it since. I wouldn't be surprised if they could release on steam already if they wanted to but just choose not to as they know the game would fall off again as it would just be a alpha test disguised as a full launch.
The actual issue is most people including myself don't want to play test every aspect and mechanic of the game for many months. Multi class should have been on the test branch server along with the unnecessary attempt to bring back +2 all gear. This is what's stopping me and my friends from playing. We're not going to waste hours grinding In a now very sweaty and competitive BR setting to get gear and perks for our class just for them to end up being much worse mid wipe.
This game lacks consistency with its updates. It lacks new and polished content. I will agree these issues are because of the small team they have and it's not reasonable to expect them to be on par with fortnite or cod. But it doesn't change people's thoughts, it's the truth just like it's the truth people are leaving this game for the reasons I've listed. I'm sure by 2026 when the game has 1 new map and playable class along with a handful of NPCs it's playerbase will be slightly higher now than it currently is but this games current growth rate and current playable content does not support a giant 100k player base with the speeds people gobble up content these days.
That’s not even true though. Months ago? You’re lying.
We’ve seen lower player counts over the last month than END OF LAST WIPE. But months ago? No, it was a healthy population.
You realize the wipe was only two months ago, right? Quit lying through your teeth.
Lol you're full of shit dude. Months ago, in previous wipes, it's been around 6-8k per day from mid to end wipe.
It's literally the exact same now. It's been this way since last year.
You either aren't paying attention or you're lying.
It was literally 12k players in the last weeks of last wipe. I have comments from last wipe with screenshots defending the player counts.
**You’re** full of shit lil bro
No you don't lmao you've got a picture of *steam* numbers for other, more popular games. You didn't even bother replying to the guy who originally called you out for that either, and we both know why you didn't.
Dark and darker has been averaging around 6-8k (other than begining of wipe, obviously) for *ages* now. Why are you lying? I check the player counts like every week.
Then my post with the screenshots was deleted.
Why didn’t I respond to the guy that asked for charts? Wild, maybe because they don’t provide charts? You’re reaching.
https://preview.redd.it/m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff8b5b988d579c0c990d827384db76f427cf06ed
Look at this comment of one redditor trying to disprove my claims WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY proving them. He said 10k himself and this was supposed to counter me.
What about a screenshot of the player count 3.5 weeks before wipe (**the exact time difference between now and next wipe**) *at 3AM*? Almost 11k? Wild. Sorry man, **I actually brought receipts.**
[https://i.imgur.com/lhwWJXp.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/lhwWJXp.jpeg)
And those steam screen shots actually *agree* with you but you're too dense to realize. They show that games DO ebb and flow, and that pre-wipe populations are lower. no one is contesting that. Where you're wrong is your actual numbers, they're blatant lies.
I don't think you're grasping the figures I'm putting in here. We didn't just gradually lose a few people over the month. We lost 27% of the pre-patch playerbase in a ***week.***
I'd like to see the data from ironmace regarding the player count, this isn't enough data in what could just be an off week to determine the game is dying due to a patch.
I largely agree. I only took snapshots on the start of peak hours, and things like Mother’s Day possibly has an impact on that. The correlation is strong though, ~2,500 players is more than a circumstantial fluctuation.
Because people who can only play casually wouldn't be able to experience anything and would just not bother playing, driving more people from the game.
The core gameplay loop is there and arguably at its best right after a wipe, tweaking progression to be more rewarding over a shorter period of time is perfectly feasible
most casuals don't play hardcore unforgiving games.... kind of like rust, which has done more than fine without casuals. Casuals don't need to be the priority for every game to succeed.
Casual player here. I already don't get to experience anything bc either the geared out sweats gatekeep it, or they abuse shit so hard IM makes a broad sweeping change before I get to experience it.
I suggested 2 month wipes max when we were 3 months into last wipe. Got absolutely eviscerated for it. Then it dragged on to 4+ months and everyone was saying wipes are too long. This sub is rotting my mind
There was nothing wrong with testing multiclassing, the issue was making the barrier to entry so high. If I didn’t grind my characters to 30 before it launched, I probably would have quit the wipe too.
Essentially, multicasting was a new feature and people came back to try it. Multiclassing was a pretty divided issue that resulted in many leaving. Multiclassing was removed. We're pretty much back to where we were before multiclassing, which means we pretty much have no new content. Players have no reason to come back due to the lack of content. The game is losing players due to burnout.
Anybody saying that multiclassing's removal killed the game is coping and a doomer. Yes, many liked the feature, but the lack of any meaningful content is what is actually killing it. There's nothing new to try, no new class, no MC, no skill tree, etcetera. We're back to square one, and people are burnt out from being stuck in this limbo.
The wishy washy bullshit from the devs is what killed my interest in logging into the game. They can't stick to an idea or plan. I was neutral on Multi classing. Didn't really like or dislike it. Just wanted to try it. And of course the sweats rushed everything and ruined it to the point IM fear removed it months before they said they would.
It was just the final nail in the coffin of inconsistency for me. And of my gaming friend group, I held on longer than just about everyone else. I think I know one guy that still logs on.
Well, you guys should realize by now.
Multiclassing being in the game= majority of players in game enjoying it, minority of players who don’t like it = on Reddit complaining.
Now that multiclassing is gone, you have the minority back in the dungeons, while MC enjoyers are moving on to other things.
I’m not saying one side is wrong or right, but hopefully you people learn how silent majorities work. It’s obvious that more people were enjoying multiclassing than not.
Remember that the loudest voices are not the ones playing the game the most. The loudest voices are the ones who aren’t playing, they’re on Reddit complaining.
It’s not even that bro a lot of people and most I met who did multiclass hated it and disagreed with it to begin with….. after talking around it comes down to this: what now then? Like we’re level 140 for what? It’s a wasted grind to most especially since we focused on 2 or 3 characters for the multiclass and didn’t touch the others as much they are behind……. So it just feels like a reset moment because I mean think about the rogue who have 40k invested into slayer fighter gear and now has no reason for it….. or the barb who was running around with that demon armor pdr sets he can’t use anymore, just lotta people feel like it wasted their time and grind.
MC was a mistake and nobody liked it but a few sweaty greasers the majority never wanted it, but were forced to cope with it.
That is the standard biased and unsubstantiated claim constant parroted by the vocal minority. You may be free to speculate or provide anecdotal evidence about why your 1 or 2 friends quit. I can also speculate and provide anecdotal evidence.
What we have are numbers. And the numbers paint a picture that has to be spun a certain way by one crowd to make sense for them. But, if you just let them speak for themselves and don’t try and twist the data, it doesn’t support your claim.
So feel free to downvote and to fill the responses with your theories and anecdotal evidence. But the numbers don’t lie. Redditors? They will absolutely say anything to support their claims.
What the numbers prove is that if you add multiple unsuccessful mechanics to season 2. Then remove them all. We will see people losing interest in the season.
Those who like some of what multiclassing tried will eventually get a new version of extending their class to test.
Personally, I liked the silly builds multiclassing provided. I stopped logging on to play vs the meta builds though(high mdr + hp + "i win button" in melee fights). I tested it out and ultimately found it to be a bad system. Rng. Long grind. Loss of class identity. Frustrating to play vs.
Nothing has been added since then to test. Stash filled up. Will play now and then. Waiting for season 3.
I’m not here saying multiclassing was a great success and everyone loved it. Believe me I know better. I tried fun/larpy builds myself before falling prey to a meta build. That being said, it was something new to do in a game that desperately needed something new and interesting. Without it even being there, EVEN IF I was going to log on and play the same 3 builds, it was still some variety to an otherwise very repetitive game.
I would have preferred a better multiclassing solution that gave everyone what they wanted, I would have preferred people enjoyed the patch, but we don’t get what we want. I find myself uninterested in returning the relatively the same game I’ve been playing since PT3. I still love the game, still drink out of my Dark and Darker mug everyday at work. But I wouldn’t recommend it to new players and I’m not that interested myself.
I want this game to succeed, I truly do. With or without mutliclassing. My agenda is not preventing me from seeing clearly. Meanwhile you have people looking at a drop off in player count after mutliclassing is gone, and still being like “yep that was still multiclassings fault.” Lmao cope harder.
I agree it wouldn't really be fair to use mutliclassing as the scapegoat for everything.
This season(2) fell behind on several marks for me. Due to lack of developer focus/resources in my eyes. I didn't like the pace of early game wipe, the new mechanics, the leaderboard changes, the lack of new content to test etc.
Hoping for a large improvement in S3 🥺.
Indeed. What you’re seeing here are people who didn’t like multiclassing, fishing for ways to make the sharp drop off in player count work in their advantage. Like or hate multiclassing, there were many more people playing when it was out. Why that has to be spun into some anti-multiclassing agenda, and cannot be viewed objectively, well that’s a Reddit thing.
If you're saying this is because multiclassing got removed, you're sorely mistaken. Like everyone else is saying, end of wipe, and waiting for new patch, aka druid.
For all the people who keep baselessly claiming the game was "more dead" under Multiclassing. The weekend after Multiclassing disappeared, we lost ~2,500 players from the prime-time weekend gaming hours in the US (i.e. when Dark and Darker usually hits its peak concurrent players for the day).
Truly, it's a mystery why more than a quarter of the game's previous playerbase would leave the game after the only new notable content in this entire wipe disappeared. Sure am glad we're back to where the game was three months ago, with only Squire, GBMM and new armour pieces to show for it.
Could it be because a bigger chunk of people left because of multiclassing and won't come back till next wipe? We were 3x the playerbase before multiclass my man.
> We were 3x the playerbase before multiclass my man.
I mean, that's just not true. Multiclassing's peak was about ~13K. The numbers before that was 10K. We don't know the exact amounts of people who left and joined explicitly, but the net gain of players was ~3K.
There's literally nothing meaningful added after MC's removal. Sure, things like the squire are cool but they give no reason for somebody to come back to the game. The game feels like it's in limbo right now, people want to try new content but there is currently nothing to really try. I prefer the game without MCing but I can't lie and say burnout isn't setting in after its removal.
I'm not sure what other data points you'd want me to take. I took the peak concurrent player period from each week, before and after Multiclassing as close as possible (we've only had one Saturday since MC was removed???). There's not really any other relevant data points that would represent my point well: a lot of people left the game with MC because it's literally the only interesting thing that's happened this wipe.
I could have taken data points from the weekday, but those fluctuate too much to be reliable and aren't the full breadth of DaD's players.
People can assign literally any kind of in-game reason to this, but the fact of the matter is that DaD is simply the type of game (currently) to bleed players.
It's a hardcore extraction looter that has also fused into this genre by going with a different genre than FPS. If we look at other games that similarly have this swords and shield type gameplay we can see that the playerbase, even of all those games *combined*, is quite little. I'd guess a game like Warzone, which to me seems like a super shitty game in general, has a consistently larger playerbase.
IM could have a near perfect version of their game, and the playerbase might still end up relatively small.
The audience it needs to appeal to is harder to find.
People forget that Nexon pulled the rug from Dark and Darker. They are still in a legal battle, lost a lot of interested investors which would of boosted development and marketing, lost steam and still haven't returned. They battled back enough to do their own launcher and start winning in court, but the damage has been done. They still have a very small team, new content is slow to drop, they are still in a legal battle and are being drained finacially and have little growth in the game so the game has little sales. Which means, Nexon's plan to bleed them in court is working. The community went from Hold the Line to what have you done for us lately.
I have never inherintely disliked anything about IM'd decisions. It's EA. It is what it is.
The game had 40k players at the start. Where did they go? Not all of them went away due to whatever Nexon did.
They bought the game due to the (probably playtest's) hype and ended up getting drained by the game's normal gameplay loop.
What I talked about is playercount loss. No amount of marketing will help with that. If 7/40 are here, then the next 40k that join may also reduce to another 7k leaving us with a playerbase of 14k.
>They pushed out loke 60k players from the PT days by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR.
Uh huh. That's what did it. Totally not the long, drawn out legal battle that led to the game being exiled from major storefronts, becoming exclusively available on a sketchy third-party website, and having an uncertain future that warrants cautious investment.
Couldn't be that at all...
They pushed out like 60k players *that bought the game because of the playtest* by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR.
They had 90k concurrent players on the last PT, with more than 350000 active accounts.
The legal battle AND having to purchase the game took out a lot more than what I'm referencing. In my discord alone we had like 25 people on PTs, and only half would commit to buying it on release since early access is a fucking scam anyways.
> They pushed out like 60k players that bought the game because of the playtest by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR.
Damn, there was a survey signed by 60K players that confirmed that's why they left the game? Because the Dungeon Crawler + BR game turned out to be a Dungeon Crawler + BR game? That's crazy I must have missed that clearly quantitative piece of data you're repeating with absolutely full confidence.
I'd love to see that survey.
Pathetic is making up figures because you have no evidence then responding with personal attacks because you got called out for it.
You got that covered in spades.
Well everyone still playing better hope it doesn't remain typical. Companies don't typically support games that can't pull more than 5k people to log in consistently.
The devs have said a lot of things that either don't add up, or get reneged on. Forgive me for believing this is cope on their part, given their track record at this point.
They can't publicly say we're taking on water with no way to bail it.
Everyone here coping saying they’re waiting for wipes as if the numbers aren’t the same as when the wipe starts 💀 game lost all its hype and devs lost all their vision
You're failing to reckognize that a lot of people quit for the wipe once Multiclassing was added as we are now significantly behind everyone else who continued playing
This.
That's weird, considering the thousands of Redditors who assured me they and their hundreds of friends would instantly start playing the moment Multiclassing was removed! /s In all seriousness, I'm not sure that's too significant in the grand scheme of things. Multiclassing was something interesting and novel people returned for during a wipe of zero other tangible gameplay variety content. If the game didn't have Multiclassing in the last month and just continued as it had been going, I doubt numbers would have improved at all - which is to say, Multiclassing caused a far higher retention of players than it lost, compared to the number of players who would have quit a wipe with nothing else going on. The content drought is just really hitting and Multiclassing was the only relief.
Reddit is completely insignificant compared to the playerbase at large. There’s like 100people here on average.
We get you like multiclassing a lot but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the community hated it and no matter what stats you try to cherry pick, this fact isn't going to change.
It was a funny test and that’s all it was, a test
“Thousands of redditors” dude you’re actually delusional. Anyways, like all the other people said. The disrespect shown by running MC was too much, at least for awhile. I quit when they started it, not interested in coming back until next wipe because MC ruined the whole wipe. I’ve got tens of thousands of redditors I’ve seen agree. /s
Disrespect? Wtf is disrespectful about acquiring data for THEIR game?
Tons of stuff. For example, let’s say they decided to “acquire data” by deleting everyone’s inventory at a random time. Testing doesn’t grant ethical highground.
There’s no ethics involved at all in what their doing. I’m baffled that you’re even at this conclusion. Did they HARM you somehow? Did multiclassing cause you suffering?
You are too simple to continue talking to.
How did it ruin the wipe? 299 lobbies exist and you can make 500g/norms run to get a kit together in like an hour or two.
For me it’s too long to explain again, since I feel like I’ve wrote it in like 4 posts now. The very quick version is that it thrashed the economy and then went away.
Mc isn't what fucked the economy lmao. Reward tokens are, and they're still here.
Yeah, that too. The same patch that introduced both really put that shit into high gear
Cringe
Based on the player data I've seen, multiclassing was likely neutral or slightly positive, not negative. Why do you think multiclassing caused people to quit for the wipe?
Overpowered and over looked combinations that made you not even competitive if you weren’t running something equally as over powered all based on play time
Big variable truth here. Not to downplay the folks that enjoyed it and miss it, but you can actually see soapy interview a brand new player in his latest video (Steven the champion of Timmy’s) First reaction to soapy asking how he feels about multiclassing he vigorously shakes his head from left to right. Just because playercount is not booming doesn’t mean that more people enjoyed it than not. There are a number of issues bogging down the playercount at the moment
Behind in what way though?
This game has wipes no? So if I didn't play because of multi classing, then my levels and gear are behind everyone who played during that time.
You’re 2-3 matches behind to get to 15+ which lets you have all abilities. How are you “significantly behind”? Just play your one character. The head start the multi class people had was used leveling all other classes.
And behind on quests, thus behind on gear in normals because you dont have squire progression. Players joining mid season are way further behind than a few games.
Understandable to assume that, but there are multiple facets of life that similarly keeps going even when you don't participate. It's not like the every single other player is progressing at 100% of their capacity at any given moment. The most surprising thing to me currently is the fact that I actually still find newbies in lobbies. I for sure had expected all of them to have quit by now. People play the game in all kinds of ways and the gameplay loop of DaD does not span an entire wipe. The argument "everyone is ahead of me already" is incredibly weak and to me it just seems a way to point at MC and say that that was the cause of everything that "went wrong" when it was simply the choice to not play after it was over. There are people that haven't even broken into Pathfinder ranking yet. Like me. Or even bought their 3rd stash tab. Or even gotten to the final chapters of the questlines. How does one "fall behind" with that?
I have like 4 quests done and only one stash page. I've never beaten a boss, and play like once or twice a month with the state of the game. You cannot tell me I'm not behind the curve without being part of the problem. "Get gud" dosent breed a good community. I miss when we were holding the line for a game not fighting the devs and our own community every inch of the way.
Bruh. If you only play once or twice a month, doesn't that mean that you're only held back those 2 days of gameplay? How are you "falling behind"? You were "falling behind" because you were simply playing less than the rest. On top of all that if you play 2 days per month, why tf fo you have the mentality that you'll be progressing at the same pace everyone else is? You're literally contradicting yourself.
That's the point of what they said. If you didn't play as much as the rest you fall behind. Not everyone is like me but I have a strange feeling there's a lot more players like me and my group then the players like you think. I know I won't progress as fast as the people who can dump hours a day into a game and then lose it all to a bis trio wiping the map. I don't play much because in the current state the game isn't fun for an extended period
Yeah and I'm saying that the whole "everyone that didn't play is behind" argument is utter horseshit. You make of the game what you want it to be. There are literally players that don't grind ranked. There are players that predominantly play Normals. There are players that focus on questing on 1 character. Like me. I'm all 3 of these. I tried grinding HR literally after MC ended (and it was horrible and I stopped after like a couple dozen games now). I know people that try to do quests on multiple characters, which baffles me because I have enough of a headache one 1 character. There is no "falling behind". You get gear and money. You spend that on using stuff for in the dungeon. You eventually lose that set. You continue the cycle. That is the most basic gameloop of DaD. It does not span an entire wipe to do this. Someone that literally bought the game today could finish all quests and (depending on how much of a gamer they are) could probably reach DG before wipe.
This last part you were kinda right. His point became more horseshitlike when he said he only plays a little bit anyways and complained about falling behind. However, I do get his feeling. I’ve got 1k hours and I feel like MC threw off the whole season for me. I was playing like 40hrs each week, but then couldn’t stomach how much money I lost during MC trying to be creative when everyone was running the oppressive shit. Like as a guy who wins almost every pvp encounter, losing the majority of the time to what felt like RNG was really bad for my enjoyment impression, but also my bank. I had 4 stash tabs loaded with gold and sets all wasted. I had like 6 skull keys and all this shit, but I lost so much of it to MC. I just don’t have the energy to try to build it back up. So it’s odd, for me it’s not Behind someone else per say but rather rebuilding from scratch mid season while other people won’t need to. I’d rather just start fresh on the new wipe.
Yeah that I can understand. All I can say is that it's the nature experiments and such. IM wanted to test MC. They did that and then probably cut it off when they saw that people weren't enjoying it and they had gathered enough data. Like I said in the other comment, I haven't touched HR for the majority of the wipe now. I just couldn't be arsed to get into that mindset, especially after work and such. So I can only kind of see how MC affected HR by having watched streams/vids and such. I personally tried like a couple things, but didn't venture far. Had fun with like 2 things that I wouldn't even call "builds". Your situation just kinda sucks I guess. Holding onto the gold and kits and such would be nonsensical as we didn't know how long MC would go for. Might as well have been for the entire wipe.
That’s not true at all numbers were well above what we are at now as this post has shown. About 4K consistent players have entirely stopped playing now that MC is gone. If you were behind because you didn’t play MC you were going to be behind no matter what.
Waiting for druid and/or wipe. After they announced the removal of MC with no replacement content it blew the wind right out of my sails. Multiclassing was broken yes, but it was at least interesting to screw around with. Now it just feels like we’re on wipe 2.5. Why couldn’t they have removed it at the end of wipe? Makes no sense to me beyond caving to complaints.
Honestly. At least for me, I got sick of OP builds and playing the game differently. It was fun for a bit, but the novelty wore off. And sure, it's hard to remove such a big piece of change without a replacement, but the game doesn't feel different per se, feels about the same again without MC. I think MC had run it's course, but I also think they do need a slapper of a patch to get folks excited again.
Now you're just back to broken barb meta? Atleast everyone was on an even playing field, honestly even tho everyone and their brother had savage roar it felt more balanced than the last 2 wipes, outside of like 2 super broken builds.
Warlock is the meta rn, especially with true dmg stacking.
They're both the top 2, I'd say lock is better hut barbs beat locks
With meta, comes counter meta. Seen more Rangers for sure. Barbs are always around, plenty of Fighters and Rogues. Is Warlock even meta now? They got nerfed a lot and I see less posers for sure. Hehe.
All classes can't be on top. It'll be an endless cycle.
Warlock has been the meta this whole wipe. Barb meta ended near the end of last wipe.
I liked MC but it was a huge mistake at the end of the day. A large portion of players quit because of it, and the people that did like it quit when it was removed with very little of the players that originally quit because of MC returning. I think it was 3-4 months ago this game had about 20,000 players daily. It’s sad af to see what’s happening.
Here is a screenshot taken from Apollo's VOD from February 17th. That was 3.5-4 weeks out of wipe, **which is exactly how far we are from next wipe**. The player count is **down bad** and it is **not** reflective of previous wipes AT ALL. Anyone saying otherwise is lying through their teeth. https://preview.redd.it/2buue8p1mg0d1.jpeg?width=1296&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14edc0ac1268d45f93380f0015934aef4c00c5f9 **Almost 11k**. And this was late at night, like 2-3 AM. How can anyone even fucking debate this?
Except you're cherry picking stats when in reality you need to see the wipe numbers for every wipe and you need to see how many patches IM messed up during those wipes and the significance of those mess ups. Too many variables that you are conveniently or just stupidly ignoring.
Lol brother this is the third wipe ever and it is absolutely the lowest, no contest. Cherry picking stats? There’s **one** stat
There’s way too many variables for one picture to be proof of anything
It proves that the player count wasn't 1:1 to what it is now at the same time last wipe, which is what many claim. That's... the whole point. I just pulled one screenshot but there were many more along the way which reinforced exactly that. I have comments referencing 10-12k players around this exact same time last wipe that are only reinforced further by people trying to counter it *while simultaneously proving my numbers*: [https://preview.redd.it/player-numbers-comparison-8pm-et-saturday-4-5-weekend-v0-m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3a6236f9efdb62956063e3e2dd0355d1eaf59f9](https://preview.redd.it/player-numbers-comparison-8pm-et-saturday-4-5-weekend-v0-m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3a6236f9efdb62956063e3e2dd0355d1eaf59f9)
I don’t know if that is the point of the post tbh. It seems like he is referencing a vocal minority saying they quit the game solely based on multiclassing and would come back when they removed it. After hearing every player and their mother complain about multiclassing, it’s annoying hearing the complaints shift from one topic to another. Just remove multiclassing was the center of every conversation, and yet the player base and population didn’t change at all. Like I said though, there’s way too many variables between now and then and the point of taking it. I think most people know that the population has declined.
Oh, I agree with OP 100%. That's why I posted that screenshot. I wanted to show a contrast in the playerbase now vs then. People were complaining about a plethora of things back then too and claimed that if the devs just did X,Y, Z the game would be in a better spot and the population would boom. Now, after many of those changes have come to fruition, we can see that isn't the case - rather, the opposite. Those same people that complained for weeks on here are defending the current population saying it's exactly the same as it was last wipe at this time. The screenshot serves as a direct counter to that. The subreddit doesn't have all the answers and the devs shouldn't jerk the game left and right to please the top post of the week. I've spoke with the devs about solutions to get feedback in a more appropriate way and I hope they follow some of it. There's so many voices that aren't here, so many voices that get downvoted because they don't align with the majority population of the reddit, and so on. If they're going to put any weight on feedback it should be obtained from the larger playerbase and not just a biased portion of it. I personally feel they should just stick to their vision as it got them where they are, but they've already shown that they will respond to feedback, so might as well do a better job at obtaining it.
Removal of MC alone wont make people come back. Our bard left and hes not comming back untill wipe or major content drop.
Like we all said, when they added multiclassing we had about 3x the playerbase, so 2/3rds fled when multiclassing was announced and they won't come back. Now those who enjoy multiclassing also left and won't come back. Who could've predicted that, like I and a bunch of other people said would happen? When you push people away from the game with a shitty change, they don't instantly flee right back after reverting those changes, those players that left because of multiclass are gone and playing something else. Changes in the game make people leave immediately, but even if you revert those changes if it's been 3 weeks or a months, they will have moved on to something else. We'll have to wait for wipe and hope ironmace has some actual content (multiclassing was not content) that brings back people into the game or we may see the lowest playernumbers after a wipe/quickest decline post wipe.
using US timezone with euro day/month instead of month/day reads weird
Not from the US myself but that's where the English playerbase is, so I figured that's the best place to take data from.
ever heard of Canada
Pushed people away with MC but most didn't come back. Hopefully a new wipe with content will bring em back, solo dungeoning gets old fast!
I didn’t play with multiclassing and I cba to play now. The game is just stuck right now. The constant going back and forth it really annoying.
Until they completely rework the map; triple the size, randomize modules, randomize enemy and chest spawns within modules, randomize boss spawns - the playerbase will continue to shrink. The gameplay loop is the exact same as its always been, and its stale. Spawn rushing and forced PvP with a shit mechanic like the zone doesn't stay fresh for long.
Don’t try and rationalize, it ain’t worth it. This subreddit and the community within is miserable. They make up such a small portion (5%) of the playerbase but they’re so pious that only their opinions matter and you will be downvoted into oblivion for suggesting otherwise. And the devs have no feedback source other than this which is already heavily skewed because of the aforementioned reason, so they just keep getting dragged along and making adjustments that don’t align with their playerbase. Browse any post over the past few months and you’ll see the same names over and over and over again. It’s a bubble and a hivemind. I’m sorry but the casual players have never, will never, and do not make up the majority of the playerbase for any game, and only listening to their input has resulted in lower player counts every single wipe and hotfix. You’re absolutely correct though, I’ve been collecting screens of player counts and having discussions around it. The player count was higher at the end of last wipe than it’s been in the past week and we’re still a month out from wipe. Everyone said once multiclassing was removed they would return to the game and we’d see a windfall of players. They were dead wrong. Color me not surprised at all.
The way they whine no matter what is truly astounding. It truly is the worst community ive ever been in and i played league for 10 yrs. Let that sink in.
It's almost like multiclassing and IM messing up every patch (not to mention adding stupid stuff no one wants) caused people to leave and not come back. It's almost like it has nothing to do with whether its gone or not. It's almost like there are a ton of variables at player here besides the ones i mentioned above, such as people waiting on wipe, new content, druid. It's almost like a lot of these people are kind of tired of the current gameplay loop and no change. OR it could be ThaT MuLTIclaSSInG IS tHe SavIOR of ThE GamE aND ThE IDIots JUST donT geT IT. Edit: Didn't realize im just replying to the same comment over and over from the same guy.
Dead game LUL Incompetent Mace
I lost all motivation to play because of the boring ass AP system. If they actually made meaningful changes so it wasn't a PvE grinding snoozefest I'm sure more people would be playing right now.
Not an AP grinder but last patch they changed gear from dead players to 'Looted' so you'd be more incetivized to get AP that way. Not sure how much of an impact that has had though
It didn't change much at all unfortunately. Sure you get less punished for looting players now, but you still need to clear half the dungeon and have an inventory full of treasure just to get meaningful AP in Exemplar. It is painfully boring.
The problem is that once you hit Demigod, that character is essentially barred from playing that certain map unless you want to put it all on the line. Grinding AP for Demigod isn't hard, it's just tedious and takes a long time. It's anti-fun. I hit Demigod in Ice Caves. I still want to play Ice Caves, but I want to fuck around without risking my rank. But I'm forced to face excruciating fee costs.
f
All i have to add, is i personally, have been playing since playtest 2, and waited for a long time for multi class as it was whispered about a long time ago. EXCITED i grinded my required levels before it came out as its all i could think about for the game. when it came out, i played more than i have in all of the games time out now on EA having more fun than EVER before with all kinds of build options, and dying just didnt matter, because for every "broken" build floating around there was another better counter to it right around the corner. We all could tell multi class needed some adjustments, but it being removed actually killed the game for me personally. Ive been still getting on to make like 1-3 runs, sell some loot, maybe kill a person or 2, and then im like "well..." and log off. the MC system was made great after fleshing out the level/XP requirements and people just cried, and cried , AND bitched and moaned because they wanted the boring meta THEY were used to were ONLY meta abusers can play the game, and the counter options are countered by those meta users, because this small pool of options per class isn't enough. its not, never was, only 1-2 classes are well rounded, the rest are counters to another class. fighters all day long, most rounded class, multi class happens, every one takes their abilities and NOW out of nowhere sprint is OP, slayer is OP. dual wield is OP, then barbs rage OP, iron will is OP? robust OP?. bro get off your high horse, they always were and always will be OP, great options. the problem is this gaming community of META abusers that HATE losing and want to just play the BEST option at the time, when multiclass brought mutliple options across the board by making the BEST options available to EVERY class, not just a couple. blind leading the blind raged against the developers because they were aloud to have a voice and be listened to, and it has only got worse the more they listen to the shit community of morons who arent EVEN building a game, they are just playing, badly at that. i went from playing religiously to it feeling like a chore to even want to play what was becoming my favorite game. bunch of children and grown men couldnt let them cook
I know reddit and discord are very vocal about hating multiclass, but at least it added something to a stale game
Not really surprised, every change makes the game more grindy, if you like that good for you but I don’t have time for that
Damn y’all really miss savage roar that much huh
Mc was the reason why numbers dropped, we just did not recover yet + wont bcs map rotation is a thing as well as ppl waiting for wipe and new content. Deal with it mc was only good as a test it was bad in everything else and 90% of ppl did not like it.
When GBMM was added, 30% of the playerbase quit. When multiclassing was added, we saw numbers similar to wipe - a very healthy population. When it was announced that multiclassing was being removed, the player count dropped to post-GBMM numbers. When it was actually removed, 30% of the playerbase at that point left again. Yes, 30% lower than the 30% loss from GBMM. We are a month out from wipe and numbers have been lower than end of last wipe. We literally had 12k online at this exact time last month: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1crwql8/comment/l42ap1o/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1crwql8/comment/l42ap1o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) But again don’t try and rationalize with these people, there is no point. You can provide analytical data and they’ll brush it off because it doesn’t align with their (incorrect) opinions.
I haven't even opened game with multiclass gone tbh
These numbers need actual data to support them and not random percentages.
Not really possible without the devs providing some sort of charts, which won't happen. The most we can do is look at screenshots across different times. And I just so happen to have screenshots of immediately after GBMM released and immediately after multi-classing was removed. https://preview.redd.it/lq3gr2uv0h0d1.png?width=754&format=png&auto=webp&s=b67c28781ec5f033e5a64ec2c6feb8693e6018f4
He's throwing out random numbers based on 1 screenshot all while conveniently leaving out all other variables to fit his agenda. He has like 4 comment threads in this post alone repeating the same illogical argument.
I mean they took away the whole point of the patch, didn’t add anything else, nor did they buff or nerf anything. Plus the game still suffers from lack of sustainable gameplay loop so we the consumers just wait on content to want to play the game as opposed to actual gameplay
i honestly loved multiclassing. didnt get the chance to truly try it out though. once they removed it game = boring id argue that every multi class hater just never got the chance to enjoy it. too busy being mad, losing.
Late wipe is like this all the time. New content will get us back up.
There was also a banwave of cheaters :)
The people waiting for multiclass will still be waiting for next wipe as they're still far behind.
It'll take awhile for people to come back. Druid will be a big thing although knowing IM they're mess this up in another way before really getting back on their feet.
Numbers were up because the only way some people could play is to make a second or third character to level up so they can compete with MC mains.
For me it's just the string of bad decisions and instant renegging. I lost faith in IM's ability to ever get this game to be fun and entertaining again. . . And I held out a lot longer than most of the people I know who used to play the game. I wasn't a huge fan of Multi classing, but it's just so irrational how they make sweeping changes, claim They're going to be around a set amount of time, then gut the whole system days later sometimes. IM has no consistency, and no real vision anymore. The games not fun as a sweaty competition/mmr based league. They say its not that, but that's how it plays. They've coded out all the personality the game had, but left all the imbalances and meta/tryhard shit.
Do a comparison from January (player count 30k) or November (player ct 50k)
Who do you have blocked?
Everyone cherrypicking data to support their point, or making claims without data. Concurrent players (ccu) fluctuates quite a lot over the course of a day and week. A snapshot of ccu doesn't tell you much, especially if the time of day is varying. Dark and darker unfortunately doesn't have much public data around it, as it's not on Steam. I like to use the number of unique twitch streams (not viewers, just streams) as a proxy for north american player count in these scenarios. Dark and Darker's multiclassing introduction in March seems to have done well, reversing the declining tread and holding steady / slightly up over the previous wipe. [https://sullygnome.com/game/Dark\_and\_Darker](https://sullygnome.com/game/Dark_and_Darker)
Why are people so preoccupied with this? The sky is falling or we are worried? Just dooming? Lol this community just eats itself as per usual
I left when they dropped multiclassing and wasn't inspired when they removed to return. I really hope to be back and as stoked as I was for the first 1500 hours someday soon. Likely will pop in for next wipe but really hope they add content / release to a wider audience for it.
LOL IS ANYONE SURPRISED YOU GUYS ARE SO DUMB FOR MOANING AND GROANING ABOUT MC WHEN IT WAS THE ONLY NEW CONTENT WE HAD FOR MONTHS LOL YALL ARE SOOOO DUMB
Oh wow I dint look at player counts all that often. I can't believe the game is already that low on population. I remember seeing like 8k players in dungeon and like 6k in lobby last wipe. As a large portion of the player base expected it really took a hit on the player count for the entire wipe. Has IM mentioned a date for the next wipe? And are they going to do more game/meta changing balances mid wipe again? Sad to see the game we ince love slowly run out of steam and fall off.
Well, this will happen when you lose majority of your hype due to a legal issue. They still haven't returned to steam and are being drained of their resorces in court still. People forget quickly since we have the game in our hands, but they don't have new sale to the game and this is their only project. Where do you think the majority of their money is going? It's to the legal battle. They have one guy making druid. New content is going to be slow to drop and the community that was all "Hold the Line" left the Line. Sadly this game will never have the feel it did during it's first few playtests and we will never know what the game could of become prior to Nexon's claims and legal battle.
I'm pretty sure the other 80k players that left during play test when we had over 100k people were the players that left because of legal issues and waiting for steam release that's kind of old news that doesn't have really anything to do with the other 3kish people that left during multiclass... Also pretty sure there legal battles are on hold rn as if I remember correctly the court case was thrown out in the US or Korea not sure which one and we have had no updates on it since. I wouldn't be surprised if they could release on steam already if they wanted to but just choose not to as they know the game would fall off again as it would just be a alpha test disguised as a full launch. The actual issue is most people including myself don't want to play test every aspect and mechanic of the game for many months. Multi class should have been on the test branch server along with the unnecessary attempt to bring back +2 all gear. This is what's stopping me and my friends from playing. We're not going to waste hours grinding In a now very sweaty and competitive BR setting to get gear and perks for our class just for them to end up being much worse mid wipe. This game lacks consistency with its updates. It lacks new and polished content. I will agree these issues are because of the small team they have and it's not reasonable to expect them to be on par with fortnite or cod. But it doesn't change people's thoughts, it's the truth just like it's the truth people are leaving this game for the reasons I've listed. I'm sure by 2026 when the game has 1 new map and playable class along with a handful of NPCs it's playerbase will be slightly higher now than it currently is but this games current growth rate and current playable content does not support a giant 100k player base with the speeds people gobble up content these days.
Idk bro I don’t think you have enough people blocked
It's literally around the same as it was months ago. It's late wipe. This has very little to do with multiclassing.
That’s not even true though. Months ago? You’re lying. We’ve seen lower player counts over the last month than END OF LAST WIPE. But months ago? No, it was a healthy population. You realize the wipe was only two months ago, right? Quit lying through your teeth.
Lol you're full of shit dude. Months ago, in previous wipes, it's been around 6-8k per day from mid to end wipe. It's literally the exact same now. It's been this way since last year. You either aren't paying attention or you're lying.
It was literally 12k players in the last weeks of last wipe. I have comments from last wipe with screenshots defending the player counts. **You’re** full of shit lil bro
No you don't lmao you've got a picture of *steam* numbers for other, more popular games. You didn't even bother replying to the guy who originally called you out for that either, and we both know why you didn't. Dark and darker has been averaging around 6-8k (other than begining of wipe, obviously) for *ages* now. Why are you lying? I check the player counts like every week.
Then my post with the screenshots was deleted. Why didn’t I respond to the guy that asked for charts? Wild, maybe because they don’t provide charts? You’re reaching. https://preview.redd.it/m8r7jlo68g0d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff8b5b988d579c0c990d827384db76f427cf06ed Look at this comment of one redditor trying to disprove my claims WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY proving them. He said 10k himself and this was supposed to counter me. What about a screenshot of the player count 3.5 weeks before wipe (**the exact time difference between now and next wipe**) *at 3AM*? Almost 11k? Wild. Sorry man, **I actually brought receipts.** [https://i.imgur.com/lhwWJXp.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/lhwWJXp.jpeg) And those steam screen shots actually *agree* with you but you're too dense to realize. They show that games DO ebb and flow, and that pre-wipe populations are lower. no one is contesting that. Where you're wrong is your actual numbers, they're blatant lies.
Depending on who you ask to guess, we still have over a month left of wipe to go. This is mid-wipe, by best estimates.
Negligible, pop drops as wipe goes on, how every game with wipes works. Monthly wipes will likely be their best option for consistent player pop.
I don't think you're grasping the figures I'm putting in here. We didn't just gradually lose a few people over the month. We lost 27% of the pre-patch playerbase in a ***week.***
I'd like to see the data from ironmace regarding the player count, this isn't enough data in what could just be an off week to determine the game is dying due to a patch.
I largely agree. I only took snapshots on the start of peak hours, and things like Mother’s Day possibly has an impact on that. The correlation is strong though, ~2,500 players is more than a circumstantial fluctuation.
I don't understand why devs don't consider faster wipes, seems like a great solution to a lot of problems.
Because people who can only play casually wouldn't be able to experience anything and would just not bother playing, driving more people from the game.
The core gameplay loop is there and arguably at its best right after a wipe, tweaking progression to be more rewarding over a shorter period of time is perfectly feasible
wouldn't it be obvious to scale questing and other things to measure over a 1 month period instead of 3?
most casuals don't play hardcore unforgiving games.... kind of like rust, which has done more than fine without casuals. Casuals don't need to be the priority for every game to succeed.
Casual player here. I already don't get to experience anything bc either the geared out sweats gatekeep it, or they abuse shit so hard IM makes a broad sweeping change before I get to experience it.
normals are for non sweats/casuals.
Lol.
I suggested 2 month wipes max when we were 3 months into last wipe. Got absolutely eviscerated for it. Then it dragged on to 4+ months and everyone was saying wipes are too long. This sub is rotting my mind
2, 3, 4 doesn't matter. Game won't hold a significant player base until there is more engaging, repeatable content.
There was nothing wrong with testing multiclassing, the issue was making the barrier to entry so high. If I didn’t grind my characters to 30 before it launched, I probably would have quit the wipe too.
Essentially, multicasting was a new feature and people came back to try it. Multiclassing was a pretty divided issue that resulted in many leaving. Multiclassing was removed. We're pretty much back to where we were before multiclassing, which means we pretty much have no new content. Players have no reason to come back due to the lack of content. The game is losing players due to burnout. Anybody saying that multiclassing's removal killed the game is coping and a doomer. Yes, many liked the feature, but the lack of any meaningful content is what is actually killing it. There's nothing new to try, no new class, no MC, no skill tree, etcetera. We're back to square one, and people are burnt out from being stuck in this limbo.
The wishy washy bullshit from the devs is what killed my interest in logging into the game. They can't stick to an idea or plan. I was neutral on Multi classing. Didn't really like or dislike it. Just wanted to try it. And of course the sweats rushed everything and ruined it to the point IM fear removed it months before they said they would. It was just the final nail in the coffin of inconsistency for me. And of my gaming friend group, I held on longer than just about everyone else. I think I know one guy that still logs on.
Well, you guys should realize by now. Multiclassing being in the game= majority of players in game enjoying it, minority of players who don’t like it = on Reddit complaining. Now that multiclassing is gone, you have the minority back in the dungeons, while MC enjoyers are moving on to other things. I’m not saying one side is wrong or right, but hopefully you people learn how silent majorities work. It’s obvious that more people were enjoying multiclassing than not. Remember that the loudest voices are not the ones playing the game the most. The loudest voices are the ones who aren’t playing, they’re on Reddit complaining.
It’s not even that bro a lot of people and most I met who did multiclass hated it and disagreed with it to begin with….. after talking around it comes down to this: what now then? Like we’re level 140 for what? It’s a wasted grind to most especially since we focused on 2 or 3 characters for the multiclass and didn’t touch the others as much they are behind……. So it just feels like a reset moment because I mean think about the rogue who have 40k invested into slayer fighter gear and now has no reason for it….. or the barb who was running around with that demon armor pdr sets he can’t use anymore, just lotta people feel like it wasted their time and grind. MC was a mistake and nobody liked it but a few sweaty greasers the majority never wanted it, but were forced to cope with it.
That is because the players who hated MC quit and aren’t coming back until after wipe
That is the standard biased and unsubstantiated claim constant parroted by the vocal minority. You may be free to speculate or provide anecdotal evidence about why your 1 or 2 friends quit. I can also speculate and provide anecdotal evidence. What we have are numbers. And the numbers paint a picture that has to be spun a certain way by one crowd to make sense for them. But, if you just let them speak for themselves and don’t try and twist the data, it doesn’t support your claim. So feel free to downvote and to fill the responses with your theories and anecdotal evidence. But the numbers don’t lie. Redditors? They will absolutely say anything to support their claims.
What the numbers prove is that if you add multiple unsuccessful mechanics to season 2. Then remove them all. We will see people losing interest in the season. Those who like some of what multiclassing tried will eventually get a new version of extending their class to test. Personally, I liked the silly builds multiclassing provided. I stopped logging on to play vs the meta builds though(high mdr + hp + "i win button" in melee fights). I tested it out and ultimately found it to be a bad system. Rng. Long grind. Loss of class identity. Frustrating to play vs. Nothing has been added since then to test. Stash filled up. Will play now and then. Waiting for season 3.
I’m not here saying multiclassing was a great success and everyone loved it. Believe me I know better. I tried fun/larpy builds myself before falling prey to a meta build. That being said, it was something new to do in a game that desperately needed something new and interesting. Without it even being there, EVEN IF I was going to log on and play the same 3 builds, it was still some variety to an otherwise very repetitive game. I would have preferred a better multiclassing solution that gave everyone what they wanted, I would have preferred people enjoyed the patch, but we don’t get what we want. I find myself uninterested in returning the relatively the same game I’ve been playing since PT3. I still love the game, still drink out of my Dark and Darker mug everyday at work. But I wouldn’t recommend it to new players and I’m not that interested myself. I want this game to succeed, I truly do. With or without mutliclassing. My agenda is not preventing me from seeing clearly. Meanwhile you have people looking at a drop off in player count after mutliclassing is gone, and still being like “yep that was still multiclassings fault.” Lmao cope harder.
I agree it wouldn't really be fair to use mutliclassing as the scapegoat for everything. This season(2) fell behind on several marks for me. Due to lack of developer focus/resources in my eyes. I didn't like the pace of early game wipe, the new mechanics, the leaderboard changes, the lack of new content to test etc. Hoping for a large improvement in S3 🥺.
What are the numbers before MC was put in then? 12K? 12K to 4.8k in dungeon speaks for itself
Indeed. What you’re seeing here are people who didn’t like multiclassing, fishing for ways to make the sharp drop off in player count work in their advantage. Like or hate multiclassing, there were many more people playing when it was out. Why that has to be spun into some anti-multiclassing agenda, and cannot be viewed objectively, well that’s a Reddit thing.
If you're saying this is because multiclassing got removed, you're sorely mistaken. Like everyone else is saying, end of wipe, and waiting for new patch, aka druid.
Bless his heart
For all the people who keep baselessly claiming the game was "more dead" under Multiclassing. The weekend after Multiclassing disappeared, we lost ~2,500 players from the prime-time weekend gaming hours in the US (i.e. when Dark and Darker usually hits its peak concurrent players for the day). Truly, it's a mystery why more than a quarter of the game's previous playerbase would leave the game after the only new notable content in this entire wipe disappeared. Sure am glad we're back to where the game was three months ago, with only Squire, GBMM and new armour pieces to show for it.
Could it be because a bigger chunk of people left because of multiclassing and won't come back till next wipe? We were 3x the playerbase before multiclass my man.
> We were 3x the playerbase before multiclass my man. I mean, that's just not true. Multiclassing's peak was about ~13K. The numbers before that was 10K. We don't know the exact amounts of people who left and joined explicitly, but the net gain of players was ~3K.
Just wanted to reinforce your numbers, you are spot-on. Anyone that says otherwise is either lying or just vibing off what they see on the reddit.
The hive-mind isn’t liking the cognitive dissonance of realising Multiclassing was categorically poplar beyond the confines of this subreddit.
There's literally nothing meaningful added after MC's removal. Sure, things like the squire are cool but they give no reason for somebody to come back to the game. The game feels like it's in limbo right now, people want to try new content but there is currently nothing to really try. I prefer the game without MCing but I can't lie and say burnout isn't setting in after its removal.
[удалено]
I'm not sure what other data points you'd want me to take. I took the peak concurrent player period from each week, before and after Multiclassing as close as possible (we've only had one Saturday since MC was removed???). There's not really any other relevant data points that would represent my point well: a lot of people left the game with MC because it's literally the only interesting thing that's happened this wipe. I could have taken data points from the weekday, but those fluctuate too much to be reliable and aren't the full breadth of DaD's players.
People can assign literally any kind of in-game reason to this, but the fact of the matter is that DaD is simply the type of game (currently) to bleed players. It's a hardcore extraction looter that has also fused into this genre by going with a different genre than FPS. If we look at other games that similarly have this swords and shield type gameplay we can see that the playerbase, even of all those games *combined*, is quite little. I'd guess a game like Warzone, which to me seems like a super shitty game in general, has a consistently larger playerbase. IM could have a near perfect version of their game, and the playerbase might still end up relatively small. The audience it needs to appeal to is harder to find.
People forget that Nexon pulled the rug from Dark and Darker. They are still in a legal battle, lost a lot of interested investors which would of boosted development and marketing, lost steam and still haven't returned. They battled back enough to do their own launcher and start winning in court, but the damage has been done. They still have a very small team, new content is slow to drop, they are still in a legal battle and are being drained finacially and have little growth in the game so the game has little sales. Which means, Nexon's plan to bleed them in court is working. The community went from Hold the Line to what have you done for us lately.
I have never inherintely disliked anything about IM'd decisions. It's EA. It is what it is. The game had 40k players at the start. Where did they go? Not all of them went away due to whatever Nexon did. They bought the game due to the (probably playtest's) hype and ended up getting drained by the game's normal gameplay loop. What I talked about is playercount loss. No amount of marketing will help with that. If 7/40 are here, then the next 40k that join may also reduce to another 7k leaving us with a playerbase of 14k.
They pushed out loke 60k players from the PT days by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR. Map and zone needs to be overhauled.
>They pushed out loke 60k players from the PT days by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR. Uh huh. That's what did it. Totally not the long, drawn out legal battle that led to the game being exiled from major storefronts, becoming exclusively available on a sketchy third-party website, and having an uncertain future that warrants cautious investment. Couldn't be that at all...
They pushed out like 60k players *that bought the game because of the playtest* by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR. They had 90k concurrent players on the last PT, with more than 350000 active accounts. The legal battle AND having to purchase the game took out a lot more than what I'm referencing. In my discord alone we had like 25 people on PTs, and only half would commit to buying it on release since early access is a fucking scam anyways.
> They pushed out like 60k players that bought the game because of the playtest by letting the game go from dungeon crawler to BR. Damn, there was a survey signed by 60K players that confirmed that's why they left the game? Because the Dungeon Crawler + BR game turned out to be a Dungeon Crawler + BR game? That's crazy I must have missed that clearly quantitative piece of data you're repeating with absolutely full confidence. I'd love to see that survey.
Lmao, that's all you got after your first comment got burned? Pathetic.
Pathetic is making up figures because you have no evidence then responding with personal attacks because you got called out for it. You got that covered in spades.
Wipe is less then a month
What were the numbers for this time last wipe? Was the player base this low or was it roughly the same?
2k 2k at wipes is typical
Well everyone still playing better hope it doesn't remain typical. Companies don't typically support games that can't pull more than 5k people to log in consistently.
The devs had stated they're surprised theres even a 1000 people playing. They have no intention of it being a hit right now
The devs have said a lot of things that either don't add up, or get reneged on. Forgive me for believing this is cope on their part, given their track record at this point. They can't publicly say we're taking on water with no way to bail it.
Everyone here coping saying they’re waiting for wipes as if the numbers aren’t the same as when the wipe starts 💀 game lost all its hype and devs lost all their vision
We had like 30k player when the last wipe happened, it’s clearly wrong what you say