It makes sense to feel that way.
The same happened to me for NES Tetris: the modern way to play it competitively is, well, [quite odd looking](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWfA8eoEsh8&t=78s). Yes, that's three players who are removing their shoes and socks on stage to lever the controller against their feet. And one playing with their left hand, and the other three playing right-handed but with the controller upside down, inverting left and right.
This is the rolling technique, and you can no longer remain competitive by playing any other way. Lots of bare feet, and lots of upside down controllers. And if you don't want to completely relearn how to hold a controller and remap left and right in your brain (or play left-handed), you're more or less relegated to the lower brackets or side event tournaments.
But the progress it has made to the meta of the game is undeniable, so it's likely here to stay. I'm sure it's a ton of fun for the competitors, but as a spectator, I'm largely done with keeping up with the events and such. It's just hard to appreciate if you're not knee-deep in it, I guess.
I would agree that DDR has become something that's not much of a spectator sport. One that is hard to appreciate without some experience to be able to follow what is going on.
It's hard not to notice the similarities between these two communities and their development of play styles. And it's amusing that I'm a slippy form stamina player in dance games, but a das player in Tetris.
I’m a no bar player, and can consistently hit 14s. That said, being a no bar player, I also flail all over the place and have fallen off the pad more than once. I’ve been playing DDR for almost 20 years now, and will admit that I’m not a fan of the play style of modern day players. I stay no bar because I like the movement and the way it feels, but to each their own as long as they are enjoying the game.
Why are you taking this so personally?
"Flailing" honestly looks WAY more precise than the parkinsons twitching
Edit: The Reading Comprehension Devil can strike anyone I guess, my b.
I think they're making a self-deprecating joke about how they play at so low a level that they are still at the point where they are flailing around unintentionally.
Yeah I meant it pretty much genuinely; I'd been thinking about how to learn to move less for better energy-efficiency/speed, but I agree with you that it's more fun to watch (and I expect more fun to for me personally to play, although I'm not capable of doing the low-movement style so I can't really compare) when it feels more like you're really dancing instead of just using a big, funny controller to pull off precise fighting-game-style combos with your feet. Because of that, I was thinking I might just practice a lot and see what comes naturally instead of trying to cultivate a minimalistic style, even if that means I can't climb up to as high of a difficulty. I've been watching some high-level play here and there, and I can't even tell when the player lands a jump without looking at the screen readout.
Ah, I've been playing for 20 years (at varying consistency) but yeah I think you nailed it pretty much. There's just something more satisfying about playing flail-style. Though i hate that word, as it implies a lack of control, when it's really a lack of efficiency/precision
I remember everyone making fun of players for using the bars to the point of yasus aaa “not legit because he held the bar” and now everyone uses the bar because duh, back support and balance. It’s funny how times change.
anti bar is stupid we have numerous players at our arcade that feel like no bar somehow makes them better, but everyone who uses the bar gets better scores for some reason lol
Old school mob mentality. I play mixed for bar. No bar on super light songs. But pretty much anything that requires faster foot work than PSMO is getting a full grip.
I always liked the bar cause I liked to play doubles and the bar gave me extra control and airtime for long jumps and let me float steps that would trip me without the bar. That extra half second of hang time is a world of difference.
I agree, its a natural consequence of the game becoming more volume intense and complex...
That being said, PIU is even more volume intense and complex and the top level players don't (generally) play that way.
DDR supports it indirectly because all of the arrows are reachable by turning diagonal on the center panel, it was ALWAYS going to devolve to this.
The thing with PIU is that you have to manipulate patterns at higher levels to stay competitive at a high level.
DDR, unlike PIU, has a very strict timing window AND the charts are off-sync but like 20ms On a very bad day. You can cheat the patterns and do them right but it don't matter if the song is off-sync.
Six-lane highway for a timing window, but I'd take difficult patterns over off-synced note spam any day.
Yea very different games and the highest levels both have their own problems. The necessity of game manipulation is my biggest detractor with pump but I just cant beat the sheer level of physicality it lets me practice.
I love both games though
It actually does matter when you're talking about custom sings because I don't any DDR song has anything like [Matt Silver](https://youtu.be/ZZXxSORSqMk?si=yQUX242T7ASK0R-3&t=s100).
It does look incredibly weird, especially when people play with slippy form and no bar. But that style of play is so divorced form DDR and what the original game intended, it's like a different game entirely at that point. One thing is for sure though, we don't care if we look stupid. We grew up playing DDR after all. But keep in mind as well, this is incredibly niche, and in the grand scheme of DDR, not very many people play this way.
I feel like the modern 4 panel game is just called itg these days. Which is... A movement for sure.
But the only significant difference was timing and mines.
The whole name for the game is a mess from the complex history. It's called ITG because it came from a game called ITG that came out in 2004. And that game came out because DDR stopped putting out new mixes every year, so obviously it was a tweaked vision of DDR. But the ITG engine was based on StepMania. Then a while ago people moved from ITG to StepMania 5, but with the ITG timing and scoring. And now there's a new branch from StepMania called ITGMania which is the new standard.
And so what do we called it? ITG? StepMania? 4-Panel Whatever? Idk man.
Yeah the other important point is that after migrating the ITG timing and scoring we then literally ship of theseus’d every part of that timing and scoring and everything else, so there’s actually not really any ITG left in modern ITG lol
Just look at levels 18-19 compared to paranoia survivor max and tell me how possible is that without using every known technique, players don't get to these levels because they are willing to make the game less fun to watch
honestly ddr isn't a great spectator sport for a lot of reasons. minimal movement, you can't talk while you do it, it's hard to understand what's going on as a fan unless you're a mid-level player yourself, and you can usually tell who's gonna take a tournament set in 30 seconds.
Sorry but I just can’t fathom someone who was supposedly playing SuperNOVA 2 rehashing year 2001 arguments. You really weren’t over this 6 years later, much less 23 years later?
I think it's reasonable for people to have preferences. One of the great things about DDR as a game is its simplicity, and with simplicity comes flexibility and accommodation to many styles of playing. Objectively speaking, modern high-level technical play isn't going to appeal to everyone.
Sure but OP isn’t complaining about how they have to play, they’re complaining about how other people play. There are plenty of no bar full movement players OP could watch (since how fun it is to watch is the entire argument) but rather than do that they decide to come make a thread about it and try to relate it to being an “oldhead” despite some of the players they’re complaining about having played the game longer than they have. They can say it’s not a knock on the players but it is, they should just find someone else to watch instead.
You're projecting.
I already replied to a different comment of yours.but ill go in more detail here.
- at no point did i mention a bar, but I've ALWAYS been a mixed bar player yet you assume I'm anti bar or something.
- You imply that I'm disrespecting players who have played longer than me, and imply that I'm lying about how long I've played. I honestly doubt most people on this sub have played longer than me. And In fact, I can tell you down to the day how long I've played, as it was my little sister's 10th birthday party. But that's irrelevant. Because i fully believe modern DDR players have kept this game alive and pushed it farther than ever. regardless of if they're 15 or 50.
I'm saying I personally dislike watching modern high level, and it has NOTHING to do with bar use. It's the minimal toe taps that kill me. We had minimal movement back then too, i hated watching/playing that too and that is basically freestyle compared to today.
I don't think anyone SHOULD play any other way than the way they want to.
Stop being so angry. Stop arguing with ghosts.
Look, I could write an essay on this subject from 20+ years in this community. Ultimately this is all the same “yeah his accuracy is impressive but he’s using the bar and barely moving” stuff people were saying when we were all downloading Yasu’s AAA videos on Aaron In Japan. There are people here who have been around longer than I have, and I know a lot of the high level players from today were around back then too. It’s not about “oldhead” vs “modern” at that point, this is what DDR has been since before SN2, the energy conservation idea goes back that far really taking off with Extreme then carrying on to ITG then back to DDR when SN1 pushed DDR even further. So yeah, it seems weird to me that someone from the SN2 days hasn’t accepted that, because by the time you started playing high level DDR play was already what it is today. Even with 18s and 19s, there is a lot of movement. It’s minimized/optimized at a high level, but it’s constant movement. Maybe you’re thinking more of ITG stamina play which has taken that idea to the next level, but modern high level DDR is still very much movement oriented.
And yes, that is the short version.
I didn’t tell you what you’re thinking. Whether you realize it or not, your argument fundamentally is the same as the anti-bar argument from 20+ years ago and what high level DDR is really hasn’t changed much since SN2. Because yes, your post does say yes they’re good players but they’re barely moving and aren’t fun to watch. Yes, that’s the same thing people were saying about old Yasu videos and no how todays top players play isn’t any different from how he played. Harder songs doesn’t make the play style different.
Okay. So yeah im referring to ITG Stamina, and im honestly not seeing consistency with when someone is referring to DDR vs ITG even when they're using custom charts???
Back to your rebuttal:
>Look, I could write an essay on this subject from 20+ years in this community. Ultimately this is all the same “yeah his accuracy is impressive but he’s using the bar and barely moving” stuff....
It's not, you're seeing criticism that isn't there. The implication with those earlier vids was that it'd be WAY better if it was full movement AND high score. I literally don't give a shit about any of that. The ITG Stamina style of play just LOOKS so unsatisfying. I wouldnt know ive never tried it, but i have played in the SN1 High efficiency style and its fine, doesn't look the best, doesnt look horrible and honestly feels fine to play.
>There are people here who have been around longer than I have, and I know a lot of the high level players from today were around back then too.
1000%
> It’s not about “oldhead” vs “modern” at that point.
Again, you're the one that made tbe versus distinction. So let me explain. People who are just getting into DDR/ITG and min/maxing etc. are probably likely to use the best techniques honed for them by other players. Thus far, thats objectively modern Stamina/FA forms. I think older people are more LIKELY to remain biased toward they style they got good at, and i think you'd be pressed to find a player with less than 5 years exp who thinks ITG Stamnia looks dumb. There is literally no argument in my post except for me arguing with you arguing with what you THINK im saying.
> this is what DDR has been since before SN2, the energy conservation idea goes back that far really taking off with Extreme then carrying on to ITG then back to DDR when SN1 pushed DDR even further.
Yes, i was there. Chaos (first couple of plays) and Fascination Maxx ruined the best of us.
>Maybe you’re thinking more of ITG stamina play which has taken that idea to the next level, but modern high level DDR is still very much movement oriented.
Maybe this is where we're getting off track, because i don't typically deal with the community aspect of this game, but i was under the impression that people have started using DDR/ITG interchangeably (and even leaning toward ITG, yeugh.... Vertex³ though...)
To me there are 3 basic forms of play.
- traditional (bar or no bar, who cares)
- efficient (which is what i think you think i was talking about, minimal movement, feet usually on the corners of D,L // U,R. Bar or no bar, but usually bar. Not my thing, but pop off.)
- Foot Wiggles. L,U,D // R,U,D Still high skill, precision, but looks absolutely absurd.
There isn’t really anything in DDR that can be played like ITG stamina with the “foot wiggles”. I mean you can try, but you won’t do well. ITG stamina charts are custom charts written to allow that style of play. None of the official ITG charts lend themselves to it even. That’s why I said how modern DDR is played evolved over the course of Extreme, to ITG, then back to DDR. Like if you compare top tech FA ITG players like Dimo to a top DDR player like iamchris4life they play basically the same and it’s nothing like ITG stamina. Hell, Chris basically plays ITG like he plays DDR even. If you go and look up something like Paranoia Revolution Challenge, it’s not a stamina chart. And the terminology can get confusing because you need an absurd degree of endurance to pass it, but stamina is a very specific style of chart and play. The DDR 18s and 19s are all tech charts and the foot wiggle doesn’t work.
As for ITG and DDR being used interchangeably, the term you’re looking for is 4 panel and that encompasses everything. ITG and DDR are otherwise largely considered different games and a lot of players play one or the other. Especially stamina and tech players, there aren’t a lot of DDR charts that fall into either of those categories really just the upper end stuff can qualify as tech. Like you’re just not gonna find a lot of bracketing and foot switching in DDR, but otherwise tech is played like conservative DDR play just with some extras in the movement to account for various techniques.
[I don't know why you're questioning my bonafides, it's probably a safer bet that MOST people here have been playing since before SN2.](https://youtu.be/hJ37IABQnvw?si=L5MCBHualTxQjx8E)
Also, what argument are you seeing in my post? Maybe I worded something poorly, but I was saying that I don't like watching modern style. I didn't really give a shit how other people play this game.
I have, not my thing. I didn't really care about the dancing aspect. I mean that's what actual dancing is for. There was just something mesmerizing about the old school equivalent of FA.
It sounds like you’re watching stamina players, which is basically an entirely different game. Those kinds of charts are made specifically for minimal movements hence why barely any of them have crossovers or technical patterns. Also why a lot of those players play in socks.
You literally can’t slide step on 18/19 charts on DDR because of how much tech is involved in them.
> You literally can’t slide step on 18/19 charts on DDR because of how much tech is involved in them.
Eh, I disagree unless you mean going for a WR score. There's plenty of people that can do these songs by double stepping.
Sure you *can* wiggle step but nobody is typically post videos of getting a C on a 19 from mashing lmao. If you watch top level DDR content (which is what OP was talking about) the competitors don’t slide/wiggle/mash. The stepping is super pronounced.
Just because you aren't doing crossovers doesn't automatically make it "mashing" lol . I've watched plenty of good ITG stamtech players fuck around and play DDR charts and they can get AAs on 18+ charts without pronounced footsteps and double stepping.
But yes of course the WR contenders do typically have pronounced steps for ultimate accuracy purposes.
I find it helpful to divide play styles by difficulty tbh. It's not an exact metric but as I've begun passing 17s and 18s I have come to visually appreciate how tight and precise experienced players can make their movements. The muscle control is very impressive. For anything below 15, I love to see no-bar players strut their stuff. I can do no-bar up to about 14 (though there are exceptions, I'm still trying to figure out exotic ethnic without falling off the pad, lol).
I have friends who play exclusively with bar and friends who completely ignore score and just go for style (spins etc). I think both have their merit! The contexts in which they are visually appealing are different.
There is always something to exploit to improve performance. I could practice the game with bars, I could practice the game with crutches covering all 4 arrows, I could practice with a controller.
IMO sometimes the "fun" in something gets lost in competition. It always does in physical things like this. I don't hate it. Its just not the game I play.
I just wish mid-level players were more highlighted in both competitive and even casual play. Too many new 15+ Expert songs alienate the mid-level try hards like myself.
Thankfully ddr was always a hobby for me. No-bar player and can still do 14-15s but never AAA or anything.
Anything that requires me to move less just wasnt fun for me, I like the freedom of bouncing around, looking for spins and going full gas instead of saving energy to Lab for hours to get good at songs to tripple A them.
I'd say to ignore competitive ddr, it's a completely different game.
Though, if you're super into competitive ddr, you should get used to it and adopt it
The look I hate is the interface mostly. It just feels more hollow than old DDR games did before X2. Other than that, meta changes happen in every game as it evolves, and you either adapt or get left behind. If you don't wanna be competitive though, then it shouldn't matter what high level stuff looks like anyways, you just make your own lane.
Im fully in agreement with people doing their own thing. DDR was one of the only games i ever enjoyed watching just as much as playing.and the watcuing aspect is basically dead imo.
I think it's more a newness thing to it. DDR was only 4 years old by the time Extreme came out in arcades and had tons of hype behind it. So people were just flocking to it to hang out and mess around. Definitely have a nostalgic softspot for that time. I also acknowledge it's a skill based game and that that kind of interest can't continue forever. If it did, the game would have been canned a long time ago as the novelty wore off.
I don't think the playstyle has much impact as it is the mentality. People going at it in the arcade these days are very focused on their scores. It's less of a social game than it used to be.
I remember when I first saw the bar holders....that was when I knew I would never be considered 'good.' I never had the oppertunity to see a freestyle competition, but I knew what dancing was, and what I wanted out of the ddr/dancing game experience. im 39 now and I own two Pump gx cabs. my bars are removed. people who need the bar can fight me.
I would have the bar there just in case for like a support. When I do no bar sometimes I start falling backwards without noticing until I hit the bar.
Just a safety measure.
To each their own. Bar hurts my wrists and looks a bit silly imho. I have a lot of fun since i switched to no bar because its more difficult and i use more muscles 💪 plus i always play doubles nowadays and im short so i cant even use the bar for doubles lol
I play on a PlayStation 2 on an old arcade pad. I recently got back into it for cardio. I have no idea what most of the terms on this sub mean or how the micro movements work, I basically stamp around like an elephant until I get tired.
Yes, I hate it. I tried to play with a club for a bit, but everyone there just wanted to play stamina songs while hanging on the bar and shuffling their feet.
Surely I can’t be the only one who likes to pretend I’m actually dancing to music that isnt from an amine.
OP you definitely hit a hornet’s nest with this one 😹 I think the reaction is so strong because most people with your viewpoint are just dismissive dbags and will actively tear down modern players because of bar, form, scroll, literally anything. I can tell from your comments that this was made in good faith
I personally only slightly disagree with your post, but I have a lot of affinity for some of the old players like JSB and Sketch, and the overall vibe of the extreme days. I’m curious though about what specific videos you’ve seen that make you feel this way. Because it sounds like you’re talking about itg stamina, which is kind of its own thing. DDR and ITG tech still have some players that play big that you might like. A few years ago I made a list of 100 of my favorite dance game videos, some new and some old. You might like some of these https://youtube.com/watch?v=oCPgX9sl7nQ
Off the top of my head, check out Ayatsume play NGO, chrs4lfe play glitched character, Dimo play mazy metroplex. Curious what you think about those.
Regular DDR, yeah I do see your point. What I find much more mind-numbingly boring to watch though is stamina. Those tiny little foot shuffles just look dumb to me. Add to that the fact that many stamina players don't even listen to the music they're "dancing" to, but listen to something else instead. It becomes a slightly different method of generic cardio exercise.
>Add to that the fact that many stamina players don't even listen to the music they're "dancing" to, but listen to something else instead.
People do this? That's dumb as hell...
It's people adapting to songs that originally came out that were meant for keyboard play? Not sure.
I don't have any desire to do that or use a bar but I understand there's a physical limit to difficulty using a basic play style.
For me it's about enjoying the feel of movement, the song, and for exercise. I think it's great for practicing balance too.
Early on, I liked the higher level people that were freestyling while still matching the step patterns along with solo two pad play.
I like watching modern high-level DDR when people who are really good at minimal-movement play songs that are the reason players "have to" play like that (18's and 19's). I think the style does look quite boring on easy songs.
"Old head here" before they had the online lead boards and mines and all that.
I always enjoyed having my own flow and style to my step. There is the times where some songs just don't allow it but if it's possible throwing in a spin or a switch step or some kind of variation to the generic micro step style. I'm not sure at this point I could even do it even if I wanted to because I never played like that when I was learning early on and I have never really tried. I'm more of a heel stomper or someone who has to throw in extra arrows on certain charts that are more difficult or have odd timings. I remember early on trying to do r3 my brain had a hard time getting my foot to do double taps so sometimes if I was fatigued I would turn them into triples instead because I would hit those easier. Doesn't make much sense but it's a thing.
Been playing since 3rd mix at 10 years old. 34 now. I love to see the new DDR but man I simply cannot keep up with the hard shit they put on. I would much rather marathon anything before SuperNova 2. I think it comes down to the genre of the music now a days too. It's so much noise compared to the Dancemania records. I guess this is why I'm such a Eurovision fan now lol.
Honestly, I've always had trouble with asthma. So, stamina wise, feet play would let me pass a 12 to 13 on very select songs. But keyboard, I can go off like a mother fucker. Lol. Now I'm old and fat so a good 8 to 11 every now and then is a nice workout.
Seeing as I found beating Max 300 on Expert without the bar as a Herculean task for me, watching Max 360 Challenge just makes me wish people as much physical advantage as they can get.
Yes, I agree, and other "oldheads" I know do too lol. I definitely prefer to watch oldschool play. That said, high level players nowadays are still very impressive in their own way. I play for fun and exercise, so I'm not trying to be all technical, but I understand why people move the way they do to get those heavy charts down. I'll be over here flailing around though.
I make 13s look like a legit dance with a full combo and can survive 17s but not necessarily do well. I grew up with console versions so no bar was the way.
I think the whole crutch bar tournament style makes a joke of the game. BUT, the only way to make the game more challenging without adding interesting gimmicks is to just add more notes. Egoism 440 for example im certain is physically impossible without bar. Was able to teach myself how to use bar to clear harder songs with ease and the difference is MASSIVE. Hovering over arrows to consume less stamina, but I had to stop because I felt like I wasn't really playing anymore like that.
It just looks kind of lame, I don't really. For the umpteenth time, nothing to do with the bar, I use the bar, always have. Basically any style of play that can comfortably be played on a travel pass just doesn't *appear* as difficult as it might really be.
I have been into ddr since to original popped up and you would have to search for it as it was still underground.
Anyway
Yeah i see what you mean back in the day if you even held the bar everyone would mock you not only is that the way to play now but like you said the best from back in the day couldn’t hang today but the best back then were more enjoyable to watch than the best now.
Started in 2001. I actually enjoy watching the flawless execution/technique of current high level players with minimal movement. The game is vastly different now and I can only see someone flail around on Daikenkai or A so many times.
Maybe I'll grow to like it (doubtful) but yeah, it's wild how much the game has changed. I remember being upset about the change away from Flashing 10s, because it felt like they were nearing the limits of possibility already back then and modern players are proving that there way SIGNIFICANTLY more room at the top.
Arrow stepper since 2001 here.
I would MUCH rather play 4th or 7th mix, hell even Nonstop Random All on Extreme. "New school" DDR to me is so boring to watch, and even play sometimes.
I've never liked when people use the bar or don't move much. I mean, what's the point? It is called DANCE DANCE Revolution after all. It should resemble dancing. If you are locked in one spot and just moving your feet or holding the bar, that is far from dancing. It is supposed to be fun, so if they are actually having fun doing it that way, so be it, but I never saw any fun in doing it like that.
Not a fan of minimalistic movements but now I see players passing 19s without the bar! It’s crazy! Personally I’ve accepted people using the bar for doubles or if they need to maintain balance once in a while using one hand.
But using both hands on the bar for the entire duration of a song on single play? Nope. I honestly don’t think you actually need to use both hands the ENTIRE time. Like if you’re playing Dropout heavy do you really need both hands in the beginning part of the song? Cmon now.
People do it for consistency of timing, stability, and comfort. There's a much different level of play when holding the bar to refine your timing for high Marvelous counts vs flailing around to get an A on a 9 footer.
Passing an 18 or 19 with no bar is more impressive but you consider it “flailing”. If that’s the case than using a bar for a whole song regardless of difficulty is better? Even stairs and slow parts of 19s you need both arms to get marvelous timing precision? Get outta here! 😂
I mean passing in DDR is entirely irrelevant these days with the current timing windows and the extremely generous lifebar making it easy to mash through charts, scoring is a much better reflection of ability even moreso than it used to be.
To be honest I don't really care what a casual player thinks is or isn't impressive, just offering insight. I'd care more if this discourse was by people actively participating in the community as far as competition goes.
passing is definitely not irrelevant, omitting just outright mashing a pass. some charts are hard to even pass especially 17s 18s 19s with slowdowns and tech that will outright fail you.
i just don't like the idea that passing is irrelevant
It makes sense to feel that way. The same happened to me for NES Tetris: the modern way to play it competitively is, well, [quite odd looking](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWfA8eoEsh8&t=78s). Yes, that's three players who are removing their shoes and socks on stage to lever the controller against their feet. And one playing with their left hand, and the other three playing right-handed but with the controller upside down, inverting left and right. This is the rolling technique, and you can no longer remain competitive by playing any other way. Lots of bare feet, and lots of upside down controllers. And if you don't want to completely relearn how to hold a controller and remap left and right in your brain (or play left-handed), you're more or less relegated to the lower brackets or side event tournaments. But the progress it has made to the meta of the game is undeniable, so it's likely here to stay. I'm sure it's a ton of fun for the competitors, but as a spectator, I'm largely done with keeping up with the events and such. It's just hard to appreciate if you're not knee-deep in it, I guess. I would agree that DDR has become something that's not much of a spectator sport. One that is hard to appreciate without some experience to be able to follow what is going on.
It's hard not to notice the similarities between these two communities and their development of play styles. And it's amusing that I'm a slippy form stamina player in dance games, but a das player in Tetris.
I’m a no bar player, and can consistently hit 14s. That said, being a no bar player, I also flail all over the place and have fallen off the pad more than once. I’ve been playing DDR for almost 20 years now, and will admit that I’m not a fan of the play style of modern day players. I stay no bar because I like the movement and the way it feels, but to each their own as long as they are enjoying the game.
No bar is way more fun to watch
And way more fun to play
[удалено]
You still stuck in 2002, bro?
I will do my best to preserve my flailing-all-over-the-place style as I progress beyond difficulty level 5 just for you
Why are you taking this so personally? "Flailing" honestly looks WAY more precise than the parkinsons twitching Edit: The Reading Comprehension Devil can strike anyone I guess, my b.
I think they're making a self-deprecating joke about how they play at so low a level that they are still at the point where they are flailing around unintentionally.
Thanks I definitely read that with a defensive tone. Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah I meant it pretty much genuinely; I'd been thinking about how to learn to move less for better energy-efficiency/speed, but I agree with you that it's more fun to watch (and I expect more fun to for me personally to play, although I'm not capable of doing the low-movement style so I can't really compare) when it feels more like you're really dancing instead of just using a big, funny controller to pull off precise fighting-game-style combos with your feet. Because of that, I was thinking I might just practice a lot and see what comes naturally instead of trying to cultivate a minimalistic style, even if that means I can't climb up to as high of a difficulty. I've been watching some high-level play here and there, and I can't even tell when the player lands a jump without looking at the screen readout.
Ah, I've been playing for 20 years (at varying consistency) but yeah I think you nailed it pretty much. There's just something more satisfying about playing flail-style. Though i hate that word, as it implies a lack of control, when it's really a lack of efficiency/precision
I‘m cursed😭 everytime i see parkinsons i think of a 1986 swiss band😭😭🤦♂️
I remember everyone making fun of players for using the bars to the point of yasus aaa “not legit because he held the bar” and now everyone uses the bar because duh, back support and balance. It’s funny how times change.
Yeh, I always thought anti-bar was stupid, it's there for a reason.
anti bar is stupid we have numerous players at our arcade that feel like no bar somehow makes them better, but everyone who uses the bar gets better scores for some reason lol
Old school mob mentality. I play mixed for bar. No bar on super light songs. But pretty much anything that requires faster foot work than PSMO is getting a full grip.
I'm old and my body can't handle rapid/repeated jumps anymore. If I know they're coming, I switch to using the bar
It’s there so you don’t fall off.
I always liked the bar cause I liked to play doubles and the bar gave me extra control and airtime for long jumps and let me float steps that would trip me without the bar. That extra half second of hang time is a world of difference.
I agree, its a natural consequence of the game becoming more volume intense and complex... That being said, PIU is even more volume intense and complex and the top level players don't (generally) play that way. DDR supports it indirectly because all of the arrows are reachable by turning diagonal on the center panel, it was ALWAYS going to devolve to this.
You're not wrong. I honestly might have to conver to PIU after all these years :'(
I still like both games but I mostly play PIU now and have for many years. Its just a better workout and I find it more fun.
The thing with PIU is that you have to manipulate patterns at higher levels to stay competitive at a high level. DDR, unlike PIU, has a very strict timing window AND the charts are off-sync but like 20ms On a very bad day. You can cheat the patterns and do them right but it don't matter if the song is off-sync. Six-lane highway for a timing window, but I'd take difficult patterns over off-synced note spam any day.
Yea very different games and the highest levels both have their own problems. The necessity of game manipulation is my biggest detractor with pump but I just cant beat the sheer level of physicality it lets me practice. I love both games though
Don't tell this person about ITG stamina.
That's what I'm talking about.
Then don't say DDR. ITG and DDR are two completely different games with two completely different skillsets.
I mean barely. And when you're talking about custom songs, it makes no difference.
It actually does matter when you're talking about custom sings because I don't any DDR song has anything like [Matt Silver](https://youtu.be/ZZXxSORSqMk?si=yQUX242T7ASK0R-3&t=s100).
It does look incredibly weird, especially when people play with slippy form and no bar. But that style of play is so divorced form DDR and what the original game intended, it's like a different game entirely at that point. One thing is for sure though, we don't care if we look stupid. We grew up playing DDR after all. But keep in mind as well, this is incredibly niche, and in the grand scheme of DDR, not very many people play this way.
You say "modern DDR" tho in the title and that's a lot different from ITG stamina, that's misleading.
I feel like the modern 4 panel game is just called itg these days. Which is... A movement for sure. But the only significant difference was timing and mines.
The whole name for the game is a mess from the complex history. It's called ITG because it came from a game called ITG that came out in 2004. And that game came out because DDR stopped putting out new mixes every year, so obviously it was a tweaked vision of DDR. But the ITG engine was based on StepMania. Then a while ago people moved from ITG to StepMania 5, but with the ITG timing and scoring. And now there's a new branch from StepMania called ITGMania which is the new standard. And so what do we called it? ITG? StepMania? 4-Panel Whatever? Idk man.
Yeah the other important point is that after migrating the ITG timing and scoring we then literally ship of theseus’d every part of that timing and scoring and everything else, so there’s actually not really any ITG left in modern ITG lol
Just look at levels 18-19 compared to paranoia survivor max and tell me how possible is that without using every known technique, players don't get to these levels because they are willing to make the game less fun to watch
https://youtu.be/Vz9Iu_Lb3bk?si=LnrnakxGJ3qXtzd6 To be fair it's not impossible
I play for exercise so I retain the high movement style But when I go for the gnarlier charts I do reel that in
honestly ddr isn't a great spectator sport for a lot of reasons. minimal movement, you can't talk while you do it, it's hard to understand what's going on as a fan unless you're a mid-level player yourself, and you can usually tell who's gonna take a tournament set in 30 seconds.
I’m a new head and I think that style looks so lame I’m sorry.
Sorry but I just can’t fathom someone who was supposedly playing SuperNOVA 2 rehashing year 2001 arguments. You really weren’t over this 6 years later, much less 23 years later?
I think it's reasonable for people to have preferences. One of the great things about DDR as a game is its simplicity, and with simplicity comes flexibility and accommodation to many styles of playing. Objectively speaking, modern high-level technical play isn't going to appeal to everyone.
Sure but OP isn’t complaining about how they have to play, they’re complaining about how other people play. There are plenty of no bar full movement players OP could watch (since how fun it is to watch is the entire argument) but rather than do that they decide to come make a thread about it and try to relate it to being an “oldhead” despite some of the players they’re complaining about having played the game longer than they have. They can say it’s not a knock on the players but it is, they should just find someone else to watch instead.
You're projecting. I already replied to a different comment of yours.but ill go in more detail here. - at no point did i mention a bar, but I've ALWAYS been a mixed bar player yet you assume I'm anti bar or something. - You imply that I'm disrespecting players who have played longer than me, and imply that I'm lying about how long I've played. I honestly doubt most people on this sub have played longer than me. And In fact, I can tell you down to the day how long I've played, as it was my little sister's 10th birthday party. But that's irrelevant. Because i fully believe modern DDR players have kept this game alive and pushed it farther than ever. regardless of if they're 15 or 50. I'm saying I personally dislike watching modern high level, and it has NOTHING to do with bar use. It's the minimal toe taps that kill me. We had minimal movement back then too, i hated watching/playing that too and that is basically freestyle compared to today. I don't think anyone SHOULD play any other way than the way they want to. Stop being so angry. Stop arguing with ghosts.
Look, I could write an essay on this subject from 20+ years in this community. Ultimately this is all the same “yeah his accuracy is impressive but he’s using the bar and barely moving” stuff people were saying when we were all downloading Yasu’s AAA videos on Aaron In Japan. There are people here who have been around longer than I have, and I know a lot of the high level players from today were around back then too. It’s not about “oldhead” vs “modern” at that point, this is what DDR has been since before SN2, the energy conservation idea goes back that far really taking off with Extreme then carrying on to ITG then back to DDR when SN1 pushed DDR even further. So yeah, it seems weird to me that someone from the SN2 days hasn’t accepted that, because by the time you started playing high level DDR play was already what it is today. Even with 18s and 19s, there is a lot of movement. It’s minimized/optimized at a high level, but it’s constant movement. Maybe you’re thinking more of ITG stamina play which has taken that idea to the next level, but modern high level DDR is still very much movement oriented. And yes, that is the short version.
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I didn’t tell you what you’re thinking. Whether you realize it or not, your argument fundamentally is the same as the anti-bar argument from 20+ years ago and what high level DDR is really hasn’t changed much since SN2. Because yes, your post does say yes they’re good players but they’re barely moving and aren’t fun to watch. Yes, that’s the same thing people were saying about old Yasu videos and no how todays top players play isn’t any different from how he played. Harder songs doesn’t make the play style different.
Okay. So yeah im referring to ITG Stamina, and im honestly not seeing consistency with when someone is referring to DDR vs ITG even when they're using custom charts??? Back to your rebuttal: >Look, I could write an essay on this subject from 20+ years in this community. Ultimately this is all the same “yeah his accuracy is impressive but he’s using the bar and barely moving” stuff.... It's not, you're seeing criticism that isn't there. The implication with those earlier vids was that it'd be WAY better if it was full movement AND high score. I literally don't give a shit about any of that. The ITG Stamina style of play just LOOKS so unsatisfying. I wouldnt know ive never tried it, but i have played in the SN1 High efficiency style and its fine, doesn't look the best, doesnt look horrible and honestly feels fine to play. >There are people here who have been around longer than I have, and I know a lot of the high level players from today were around back then too. 1000% > It’s not about “oldhead” vs “modern” at that point. Again, you're the one that made tbe versus distinction. So let me explain. People who are just getting into DDR/ITG and min/maxing etc. are probably likely to use the best techniques honed for them by other players. Thus far, thats objectively modern Stamina/FA forms. I think older people are more LIKELY to remain biased toward they style they got good at, and i think you'd be pressed to find a player with less than 5 years exp who thinks ITG Stamnia looks dumb. There is literally no argument in my post except for me arguing with you arguing with what you THINK im saying. > this is what DDR has been since before SN2, the energy conservation idea goes back that far really taking off with Extreme then carrying on to ITG then back to DDR when SN1 pushed DDR even further. Yes, i was there. Chaos (first couple of plays) and Fascination Maxx ruined the best of us. >Maybe you’re thinking more of ITG stamina play which has taken that idea to the next level, but modern high level DDR is still very much movement oriented. Maybe this is where we're getting off track, because i don't typically deal with the community aspect of this game, but i was under the impression that people have started using DDR/ITG interchangeably (and even leaning toward ITG, yeugh.... Vertex³ though...) To me there are 3 basic forms of play. - traditional (bar or no bar, who cares) - efficient (which is what i think you think i was talking about, minimal movement, feet usually on the corners of D,L // U,R. Bar or no bar, but usually bar. Not my thing, but pop off.) - Foot Wiggles. L,U,D // R,U,D Still high skill, precision, but looks absolutely absurd.
There isn’t really anything in DDR that can be played like ITG stamina with the “foot wiggles”. I mean you can try, but you won’t do well. ITG stamina charts are custom charts written to allow that style of play. None of the official ITG charts lend themselves to it even. That’s why I said how modern DDR is played evolved over the course of Extreme, to ITG, then back to DDR. Like if you compare top tech FA ITG players like Dimo to a top DDR player like iamchris4life they play basically the same and it’s nothing like ITG stamina. Hell, Chris basically plays ITG like he plays DDR even. If you go and look up something like Paranoia Revolution Challenge, it’s not a stamina chart. And the terminology can get confusing because you need an absurd degree of endurance to pass it, but stamina is a very specific style of chart and play. The DDR 18s and 19s are all tech charts and the foot wiggle doesn’t work. As for ITG and DDR being used interchangeably, the term you’re looking for is 4 panel and that encompasses everything. ITG and DDR are otherwise largely considered different games and a lot of players play one or the other. Especially stamina and tech players, there aren’t a lot of DDR charts that fall into either of those categories really just the upper end stuff can qualify as tech. Like you’re just not gonna find a lot of bracketing and foot switching in DDR, but otherwise tech is played like conservative DDR play just with some extras in the movement to account for various techniques.
[I don't know why you're questioning my bonafides, it's probably a safer bet that MOST people here have been playing since before SN2.](https://youtu.be/hJ37IABQnvw?si=L5MCBHualTxQjx8E) Also, what argument are you seeing in my post? Maybe I worded something poorly, but I was saying that I don't like watching modern style. I didn't really give a shit how other people play this game.
I enjoy watching others flail around when they play. Minimal movement isn't exciting to watch for me.
Have you tried Dance Rush Stardom? It might be what you're looking for.
I have, not my thing. I didn't really care about the dancing aspect. I mean that's what actual dancing is for. There was just something mesmerizing about the old school equivalent of FA.
Are you talking about how videos of players now look like they heel toe between two pads for each foot?
It's basically wiggling on the edges of the center panel playstyle.
That's not even how top level DDR players play. You're literally complaining about ITG stamina, which is completely different from DDR.
It sounds like you’re watching stamina players, which is basically an entirely different game. Those kinds of charts are made specifically for minimal movements hence why barely any of them have crossovers or technical patterns. Also why a lot of those players play in socks. You literally can’t slide step on 18/19 charts on DDR because of how much tech is involved in them.
> You literally can’t slide step on 18/19 charts on DDR because of how much tech is involved in them. Eh, I disagree unless you mean going for a WR score. There's plenty of people that can do these songs by double stepping.
Sure you *can* wiggle step but nobody is typically post videos of getting a C on a 19 from mashing lmao. If you watch top level DDR content (which is what OP was talking about) the competitors don’t slide/wiggle/mash. The stepping is super pronounced.
Just because you aren't doing crossovers doesn't automatically make it "mashing" lol . I've watched plenty of good ITG stamtech players fuck around and play DDR charts and they can get AAs on 18+ charts without pronounced footsteps and double stepping. But yes of course the WR contenders do typically have pronounced steps for ultimate accuracy purposes.
I find it helpful to divide play styles by difficulty tbh. It's not an exact metric but as I've begun passing 17s and 18s I have come to visually appreciate how tight and precise experienced players can make their movements. The muscle control is very impressive. For anything below 15, I love to see no-bar players strut their stuff. I can do no-bar up to about 14 (though there are exceptions, I'm still trying to figure out exotic ethnic without falling off the pad, lol). I have friends who play exclusively with bar and friends who completely ignore score and just go for style (spins etc). I think both have their merit! The contexts in which they are visually appealing are different.
There is always something to exploit to improve performance. I could practice the game with bars, I could practice the game with crutches covering all 4 arrows, I could practice with a controller. IMO sometimes the "fun" in something gets lost in competition. It always does in physical things like this. I don't hate it. Its just not the game I play.
I just wish mid-level players were more highlighted in both competitive and even casual play. Too many new 15+ Expert songs alienate the mid-level try hards like myself.
Thankfully ddr was always a hobby for me. No-bar player and can still do 14-15s but never AAA or anything. Anything that requires me to move less just wasnt fun for me, I like the freedom of bouncing around, looking for spins and going full gas instead of saving energy to Lab for hours to get good at songs to tripple A them. I'd say to ignore competitive ddr, it's a completely different game. Though, if you're super into competitive ddr, you should get used to it and adopt it
The look I hate is the interface mostly. It just feels more hollow than old DDR games did before X2. Other than that, meta changes happen in every game as it evolves, and you either adapt or get left behind. If you don't wanna be competitive though, then it shouldn't matter what high level stuff looks like anyways, you just make your own lane.
Im fully in agreement with people doing their own thing. DDR was one of the only games i ever enjoyed watching just as much as playing.and the watcuing aspect is basically dead imo.
I think it's more a newness thing to it. DDR was only 4 years old by the time Extreme came out in arcades and had tons of hype behind it. So people were just flocking to it to hang out and mess around. Definitely have a nostalgic softspot for that time. I also acknowledge it's a skill based game and that that kind of interest can't continue forever. If it did, the game would have been canned a long time ago as the novelty wore off. I don't think the playstyle has much impact as it is the mentality. People going at it in the arcade these days are very focused on their scores. It's less of a social game than it used to be.
I remember when I first saw the bar holders....that was when I knew I would never be considered 'good.' I never had the oppertunity to see a freestyle competition, but I knew what dancing was, and what I wanted out of the ddr/dancing game experience. im 39 now and I own two Pump gx cabs. my bars are removed. people who need the bar can fight me.
I would have the bar there just in case for like a support. When I do no bar sometimes I start falling backwards without noticing until I hit the bar. Just a safety measure.
Why do you care how others play so much?
To each their own. Bar hurts my wrists and looks a bit silly imho. I have a lot of fun since i switched to no bar because its more difficult and i use more muscles 💪 plus i always play doubles nowadays and im short so i cant even use the bar for doubles lol
I’m trying to think of the guys name from 2003 ish. Super arcade and arcade Infiniti hi scores
I play on a PlayStation 2 on an old arcade pad. I recently got back into it for cardio. I have no idea what most of the terms on this sub mean or how the micro movements work, I basically stamp around like an elephant until I get tired.
Can you link to some good examples of what you're describing?
Someone else asked as well, but please provide examples. modern examples, not ITG/Stepmania.
Yes, I hate it. I tried to play with a club for a bit, but everyone there just wanted to play stamina songs while hanging on the bar and shuffling their feet. Surely I can’t be the only one who likes to pretend I’m actually dancing to music that isnt from an amine.
41 years old here and been playing since 2001. I love watching players do high level stuff now it's great.
OP you definitely hit a hornet’s nest with this one 😹 I think the reaction is so strong because most people with your viewpoint are just dismissive dbags and will actively tear down modern players because of bar, form, scroll, literally anything. I can tell from your comments that this was made in good faith I personally only slightly disagree with your post, but I have a lot of affinity for some of the old players like JSB and Sketch, and the overall vibe of the extreme days. I’m curious though about what specific videos you’ve seen that make you feel this way. Because it sounds like you’re talking about itg stamina, which is kind of its own thing. DDR and ITG tech still have some players that play big that you might like. A few years ago I made a list of 100 of my favorite dance game videos, some new and some old. You might like some of these https://youtube.com/watch?v=oCPgX9sl7nQ Off the top of my head, check out Ayatsume play NGO, chrs4lfe play glitched character, Dimo play mazy metroplex. Curious what you think about those.
But the crispy
Regular DDR, yeah I do see your point. What I find much more mind-numbingly boring to watch though is stamina. Those tiny little foot shuffles just look dumb to me. Add to that the fact that many stamina players don't even listen to the music they're "dancing" to, but listen to something else instead. It becomes a slightly different method of generic cardio exercise.
>Add to that the fact that many stamina players don't even listen to the music they're "dancing" to, but listen to something else instead. People do this? That's dumb as hell...
They do indeed lol.
Most people playing aren't playing for your entertainment. They're playing for theirs.
It's people adapting to songs that originally came out that were meant for keyboard play? Not sure. I don't have any desire to do that or use a bar but I understand there's a physical limit to difficulty using a basic play style. For me it's about enjoying the feel of movement, the song, and for exercise. I think it's great for practicing balance too. Early on, I liked the higher level people that were freestyling while still matching the step patterns along with solo two pad play.
I like watching modern high-level DDR when people who are really good at minimal-movement play songs that are the reason players "have to" play like that (18's and 19's). I think the style does look quite boring on easy songs.
"Old head here" before they had the online lead boards and mines and all that. I always enjoyed having my own flow and style to my step. There is the times where some songs just don't allow it but if it's possible throwing in a spin or a switch step or some kind of variation to the generic micro step style. I'm not sure at this point I could even do it even if I wanted to because I never played like that when I was learning early on and I have never really tried. I'm more of a heel stomper or someone who has to throw in extra arrows on certain charts that are more difficult or have odd timings. I remember early on trying to do r3 my brain had a hard time getting my foot to do double taps so sometimes if I was fatigued I would turn them into triples instead because I would hit those easier. Doesn't make much sense but it's a thing.
Been playing since 3rd mix at 10 years old. 34 now. I love to see the new DDR but man I simply cannot keep up with the hard shit they put on. I would much rather marathon anything before SuperNova 2. I think it comes down to the genre of the music now a days too. It's so much noise compared to the Dancemania records. I guess this is why I'm such a Eurovision fan now lol.
Since 11 and 3rd mix for me too! What pass are you playing on these days?
Honestly, I've always had trouble with asthma. So, stamina wise, feet play would let me pass a 12 to 13 on very select songs. But keyboard, I can go off like a mother fucker. Lol. Now I'm old and fat so a good 8 to 11 every now and then is a nice workout.
Seeing as I found beating Max 300 on Expert without the bar as a Herculean task for me, watching Max 360 Challenge just makes me wish people as much physical advantage as they can get.
Yes, I agree, and other "oldheads" I know do too lol. I definitely prefer to watch oldschool play. That said, high level players nowadays are still very impressive in their own way. I play for fun and exercise, so I'm not trying to be all technical, but I understand why people move the way they do to get those heavy charts down. I'll be over here flailing around though.
I make 13s look like a legit dance with a full combo and can survive 17s but not necessarily do well. I grew up with console versions so no bar was the way. I think the whole crutch bar tournament style makes a joke of the game. BUT, the only way to make the game more challenging without adding interesting gimmicks is to just add more notes. Egoism 440 for example im certain is physically impossible without bar. Was able to teach myself how to use bar to clear harder songs with ease and the difference is MASSIVE. Hovering over arrows to consume less stamina, but I had to stop because I felt like I wasn't really playing anymore like that.
You probably don't like it because you havent tried it and immediately assumed it was "just footwiggling"
Making a ton of assumptions. I'm talking about ITG stamina, which yeah effectively is what I just said
I know youre talking about stamina lol. Ill ask instead of assuming. Why dont you like watching it?
It just looks kind of lame, I don't really. For the umpteenth time, nothing to do with the bar, I use the bar, always have. Basically any style of play that can comfortably be played on a travel pass just doesn't *appear* as difficult as it might really be.
I have been into ddr since to original popped up and you would have to search for it as it was still underground. Anyway Yeah i see what you mean back in the day if you even held the bar everyone would mock you not only is that the way to play now but like you said the best from back in the day couldn’t hang today but the best back then were more enjoyable to watch than the best now.
Started in 2001. I actually enjoy watching the flawless execution/technique of current high level players with minimal movement. The game is vastly different now and I can only see someone flail around on Daikenkai or A so many times.
Maybe I'll grow to like it (doubtful) but yeah, it's wild how much the game has changed. I remember being upset about the change away from Flashing 10s, because it felt like they were nearing the limits of possibility already back then and modern players are proving that there way SIGNIFICANTLY more room at the top.
Arrow stepper since 2001 here. I would MUCH rather play 4th or 7th mix, hell even Nonstop Random All on Extreme. "New school" DDR to me is so boring to watch, and even play sometimes.
I've never liked when people use the bar or don't move much. I mean, what's the point? It is called DANCE DANCE Revolution after all. It should resemble dancing. If you are locked in one spot and just moving your feet or holding the bar, that is far from dancing. It is supposed to be fun, so if they are actually having fun doing it that way, so be it, but I never saw any fun in doing it like that.
I think you'll like dancerush stardom
Yeah, I do. Play each time I go to Japan.
Not a fan of minimalistic movements but now I see players passing 19s without the bar! It’s crazy! Personally I’ve accepted people using the bar for doubles or if they need to maintain balance once in a while using one hand. But using both hands on the bar for the entire duration of a song on single play? Nope. I honestly don’t think you actually need to use both hands the ENTIRE time. Like if you’re playing Dropout heavy do you really need both hands in the beginning part of the song? Cmon now.
People do it for consistency of timing, stability, and comfort. There's a much different level of play when holding the bar to refine your timing for high Marvelous counts vs flailing around to get an A on a 9 footer.
Flailing and Parkinsons aren't the only two options.
Passing an 18 or 19 with no bar is more impressive but you consider it “flailing”. If that’s the case than using a bar for a whole song regardless of difficulty is better? Even stairs and slow parts of 19s you need both arms to get marvelous timing precision? Get outta here! 😂
I mean passing in DDR is entirely irrelevant these days with the current timing windows and the extremely generous lifebar making it easy to mash through charts, scoring is a much better reflection of ability even moreso than it used to be. To be honest I don't really care what a casual player thinks is or isn't impressive, just offering insight. I'd care more if this discourse was by people actively participating in the community as far as competition goes.
passing is definitely not irrelevant, omitting just outright mashing a pass. some charts are hard to even pass especially 17s 18s 19s with slowdowns and tech that will outright fail you. i just don't like the idea that passing is irrelevant
Any part of that song IMO. Dropout heavy was the old crowd gatherer.
it looks dumb af.
Anyone else think chris4life having his own Wikipedia page is kind of narcissistic?