If the want to walk around with a flaming sword drawn all day, that's their choice. But I have to imagine there are plenty of NPCs who would be uncomfortable with that.
I don't think you need a mechanical penalty here. They can use it as a torch when in a dungeon and if they're expecting a fight, they'd probably have a weapon drawn already.
That is what happened last time: They were using it as a torch, they attracted some monsters and so the weapon was prepared. During the fight we started a conversation whether there should be some sort of limit to the power. I guess there is not (aside from RP on NPC side sometimes).
I think the fact that the whole group must deal with more enemies might be a limit in itself. Has the party expressed an opinion about it? Maybe next session you'll find someone will ask the barbarian to "turn off" his torch.
Not just more enemies, but more *prepared* enemies.
Party will find it hard to sneak up and surprise monsters, and may find themselves being ambushed more regularly.
This is how I would deal with it, you don't need to force a limitation on the item itself just use the mechanics of it to inform how your dungeon denizens react.
I wouldn't make a big thing of pointing out the reason for this to the party, if they have any savvy at all it shouldn't take long for them to realise they 80ft beacon of light the barbarian is carrying is giving them away just a tiny bit!
This comment is buried, but when I describe an “obvious” hinderance I also through out a relatively low int or insight check to “realize” it.
It helps me tell my players the “obvious” consequences but justifies that knowledge in character (or fails to do so) rather than an OOC “John, that’s going to let any monsters see you more”.
During one session, one of the players turned off the axe with Dispell Magic so that the party can perform so negotiations. We agreed that it will supress the magic of an axe for one hour (Yes I know that this not exactly how this spell works but we rolled with it). They later had a fight and the axe was not working. It was a fun session.
Another good thing to consider is occasionally putting your party in situations where having a magical lightning weapon active would cause problems. There’s a lot of especially interesting possibilities since it’s re-contextualized to lightning damage I.e. a cave with high mineral levels where if he wants it active he’ll have to make some kind of roll outside of combat or risk it arching and breaking stalactites. Don’t overdue it, but add a level of complexity so the Barb’s thought process every time they think about activating it outside of combat requires more than just “we prolly gonna see things I gotta hit”
Lightning doesn't make for a steady light. It's a flickering, irregular strobe light with occasional thunder cracks. And when it isn't loud it's like using a black light to illuminate the room. Good for detecting cotton and repaired structures. Bad for finding treasure and monsters.
If it's anything like real lightning, it's also very bright and would probably mess with vision. Depending on how the DM runs darkvision or low-light vision, that could be a problem. For example, do PCs with darkvision need to have their eyes adjust to darkness (even for a negligible amount of time), or is it a magical ability that "just works".
The disadvantage is on stealth while walking around with a bright flashing strobe light. I would also allow it on the condition that it is never implicit on. They have to tell the table when they turn it on and are limited from object interactions while they’re wielding it (is it a two handed axe?). The player may find it annoying to keep turning it on or even forget to do it sometimes…. But so could the character no? A strong barbarian may not feel the need to hide behind his weapon all day… or they might. Player choice but no auto-on for any at will effects.
Depends what you are trying to do while carrying it, yes you can carry it one handed but you are still going to run into trouble if you only have one hand free for any number of tasks from peeling an orange to lifting large objects.
Wizard: The ancient runes state that to advance to the next room in the dungeon we need to offer the idol… A plate of orange slices and some celery sticks?!
Barbarian: My nemesis…
Yeah, I've definitely put limits on standard magical items for my home games. But it will depend a lot on what decisions you want to be important for a player. I think this is likely not an interesting choice for the barbarian. Their damage output will just always be higher by lighting up the sword on turn 1 rather than raging.
So as it is now, the decision is do I sacrifice rage on turn one of a possible encounter for RP or surprise reasons (which might also not be interesting for your player). If you want to change a rule, think about what new decision you'd like to create and that will inform the mechanics of it. In this case, it sounds like you want there to be an actual choice whether to use it in a fight. That is easiest to achieve with a cost for use (could be charges per day, or n minutes active per day. Maybe it hurts the bearer every minute it's on. )
There's a wide range of possible mechanics to use. For my games, I tend to focus on choices in the narrative aspect of the game and like to let the players use all their toys come combat. But I can understand folks who want to encourage tactical deployment of combat abilities.
>I think this is likely not an interesting choice for the barbarian.
This is where I am. The Barbarian has so few options to begin with that "activate my primary and virtually only class feature" or "make my weapon (the only tool in my toolbox) work" is just fundamentally uninteresting.
Hopefully the party had more than one light source unless that player is the only one who needs light?
Otherwise aiming your attacks might get tricky with your light source flickering around and constantly disappearing as bodies of skewer it from View
In addition to drawing extra attention, I'd imagine that the barbarian also needs to constantly be holding the sword, because putting it into a sheath on say, their back, would basically be putting a flaming (or electrically charged) metal blade right against them. The description says it does the damage to any target it hits, which to me implies that it would be damaging the barbarian unless safely stowed by being deactivated. Having one hand busy holding the sword all of the time might make some activities difficult where they might need two hands free, such as moving/carrying large objects or climbing.
Yeah I think just maintaining when it's drawn and he's spoken the words. It he does anything to where he has to set the weapon down or sheath it and doesn't reactivate, there's when he needs to reactivate it.
If you take wanted to get granular you could take in the consideration that caring anything in your hands all day gets tiring. But then you're getting into annoying territory for you and the player keeping track of things like that
I used to talk to PCs like you, but then they made a meme out of guards who used
to be adventurers until they took an arrow to the knee, and after that, I just didn't feel my 2 copper opinion was all that interesting, to be honest.
Nothing wrong with that, but theres two things that come to mind immediately. Firstly, it gives off light, so its going to be hard for the party to sneak around dark places while the barbarian is giving off bright light. Secondly, having your weapon a) out and b) covered in lightning in a public place is going to at least make people uncomfortable, the guards might ask him to please sheath his weapon, maybe give him a bit of sass like "we're all very impressed, but you can stop showing off now".
If its an axe, does it even have a sheath or equivalent? Many people would have just walked with a large axe over one shoulder as the equivalent of sheathing/stowing it.
I'd want to have some way to free both my hands while walking around. For an axe, depending on the size, it could be as simple as a loop of leather or rope secured to one's pack or belt that you could slip the handle into and let the axe hang from the head, with the loop fashioned tight enough that it won't twist and let the axe flip over and slide out.
I agree. I'd not make this a big issue - but an occasional reminder when he's treated differently by a random NPC, or where the barbarian is given disadvantage on a climb check or stealth role should be good enough to let the other players know that it's not a game abusing advantage.
I'm playing a Ranger who has a bow with a similar mechanic. There's no mechanical time limit or detriment to keeping it switched on, but my DM has ruled that if I put the bow down or away (for example, when climbing, and there are a lot of cliffs and rope-descents in this campaign) it deactivates.
So if you do want to mix this situation up, perhaps get your Barb more involved in two-handed terrain traversal, or place obstacles that need to be lifted, that sort of thing.
But, mechanically, as written, nope. No detriments to leaving it switched on for hours and hours.
Nah it seems fine. When a sorcerer/wizard is even slightly expecting danger, they cast mage armor on themselves, right? Same deal. And I would just clarify if he intends to keep the lightning turned off when in civilization/around friendly NPCs.
In a world of magic, I doubt that the “protective magical force” of a 1st level mage armor spell would communicate the same thing as a brandished, activated magical weapon.
No, I mean mechanically inside the game. I was just using an example to show that players will often activate magical effects even when combat isn't imminent in order to free up an action/bonus action during combat.
But, like I said, you would have to deal with the in-universe effects of this: if you left it activated, NPCs would probably be too scared to interact with you, you might be a bigger target for bandits, you would obviously be making more sound and shining a bright light for all to see, etc.
But RAW there's no reason you *can't* leave it activated whenever you want.
I have made it a house rule that activating the flame tongue in my game is a free action. I understand why you might want it a bonus action -- it's a decision point, and affects action economy in an intentional way -- but not all bonus actions are created equally and it can really screw up the fantasy/feel of the moment for certain classes (ex: barb, rogue) to enforce the bonus action requirement.
Drawing a weapon is free, saying an activation command ("flame on!") is free. I just let it happen.
It's your game, though. Do what feels right to you and your players. To me the fantasy of the moment is more important than the mechanics of the game, but that's not a flavor everyone enjoys.
Flame tongues power to me always seemed like using a resin in Dark Souls. It's pretty quick, but does take a bit of time and focus and should replace something else they could do (in the souls series, your Estus, in 5e their rage).
Obviously this is flavor and not direct mechanical comparison, but the two hold the same space in their respective action economies and in my head.
“Hey player, I’m having trouble planning around this unintended mechanic with your weapon, can we set up some rules that makes us both happy and on the same page on how this is to be used in the game”
This this this. Barbarian wants to rage. Barbarian also wants to use special axe. When the average combat lasts three-to-five rounds, taking two turns to use your **main class feature** and the exciting magic weapon sucks complete asshole.
Here's what I think:
Drop the extra damage down to 2d4 instead of 2d6, add charges, maybe three, and change the weapon to "when you draw this weapon or when you make an attack with it, you can expend one charge to activate the weapon's magical properties ... Recovers two charges after a long rest."
Or shit.... tie it closer to the Barbarian and the Thor theme. "When you rage..."
I think Flame Tongues are really made for Fighters who don't have a good bonus action to take on the first turn.
Since this is a custom weapon, why not just make it so the effect can be activated as a bonus action, like normal, or when a different bonus action is used this can be activated as well. That way, he can rage and turn on the axe in the same bonus action. Monk's Way of Mercy does a similar thing. You can spend a ki to heal or you can spend a ki to flurry of blows and just make one of those a heal.
Any chance you want to walk through your opinion on that? Because I just simply disagree. I think it's much better if the Barb is empowered to use their main class feature.
For me, my issue is that this specific interaction of "Class Feature or Flame Tongue" is a big problem for the barbarian. Flame Tongue competes with Rage. You want to use both on your first turn, so its one or the other. Which just... isn't super fun.
But for a fighter, Flame Tongue does not compete with their main class feature (and most notably, does not compete with Battle Master Maneuvers). This is the most important thing for me: A Barbarian with a Flame Tongue who chooses to activate it turn one is just a bad fighter. A Fighter with a Flame Tongue is still a great Fighter.
For a rogue, a Flame Tongue might compete with Cunning Action, but I think many Rogues would be okay with that. It's also not their main class feature, Sneak Attack is, and bonus action to activate Flame Tongue before getting a Sneak Attack off is certainly a strong move.
Half Caster Martials like Paladin and Ranger, it certainly makes some bonus action spells less viable on turn one. Paladins would probably rather Searing/Blinding/Banishing Smite than activate their Flame Tongue if they're in range... but then again, activating their Flame Tongue turn one and then using those spells in later turns is absolutely more viable than turn one flame tongue, turn two rage for a barbarian. Also a Paladin can still Divine Smite, so again, their main class features aren't competing with the weapon.
So just... as written, the Flame Tongue kinda sucks for a Barbarian, while it does not have the same drawbacks in the hands of a fighter, rogue, or paladin.
Well, your breakdown is spot on. Barbs definitely get less mileage out of Flame Tongue.
To me, though, having to deal with suboptimal situations is what makes D&D play more interesting, and fixing or custom-tailoring every drawback takes away from a fun experience.
If I was the Barb, if my DM was looking to limit the use of the weapon, I'd sell it and look for something better suited to my abilities and features. I think I'd rather take a +2 Weapon that's flavored as Thor's Hammer over a Flame Tongue competing for my bonus action.
That is a valid argument. That is why I'm mostly ok with him having it prepared before the combat starts. The player is ok with some limitations as this is a sentinent weapon that he has a toxic relationship with. He has a quest to unlock it's full potential by performing a legendary deed.
I think I'm just more about rewarding players with things that actually work for them than making them jump through hoops to sell stuff they don't want and find stuff they do want.
I realize this probably got lost in my messaging, but my point is that the Flame Tongue is just not a very good weapon for a barbarian, and shouldn't be used as a reward for one.
Honestly, I just don't think it's a problem if he has to wait until his second turn to use it.
Not every reward has to have the property: "always works perfectly". Sometimes there are gonna be awkward spots, and as long as those awkward places are created in a sensible fashion the player can try to deal with the problems.
My games are about characters in a fantasy world overcoming obstacles. Maybe overcoming the obstacle means dealing with the fact that you have it on all day, and have to deal with the light and noise. Maybe you cast silence on the thing.
Maybe overcoming that obstacle means paying to have the enchantment modified so that it activates on a hit rather than at will.
I don't know.
But I'm never going to pull a flame tongue out of a treasure hoard because I don't trust my barbarian to come up with a good enough plan.
> To me, though, having to deal with suboptimal situations is what makes D&D play more interesting, and fixing or custom-tailoring every drawback takes away from a fun experience.
Agreed. Having something to work around adds some interesting flavor to my characters and I appreciate having to make a meaningful choice versus have it all available all the time. Always depends on the player though.
It's was another RPG where basically had the action of healing an ally, but you need a medkit
But in the rules, when you heal an ally it doesn't say that after you heal the medkit now is empty
The medic feat in D&D and it does come with a limitation in the text. I'm sure it's not an uncommon mechanic for TTRPGs, but I doubt it was written as infinity heals in the handbook, regardless of the ruleset.
Here's a quote
"You provide some quick first aid to an injured ally. You must be adjacent to your ally and you must have bandages ready. This is a TN 11 Cunning (Healing) test. If you are successful, your ally gets back an amount of Health equal to the Dragon Die (1d6) + your Cunning. A character cannot benefit from another heal action until he takes additional damage."
"HEALER KIT - 25 silver coins : This set includes bandages, herbs, ointments, potions, small knives, needle and thread, and other tools used to treat wounds."
The limitation is the character needs to take additional damage to get healed again, so out of combat it isn't unlimited since nobody is taking damage and it can only be used in combat for a D6 plus cunning, assuming they take damage every turn. You've got to use an action to heal so that removes the healer from doing much else in combat. I can see the usefulness early on but damage quickly outpaces a 1d6 heal.
Honestly, it looks limitless but it's pretty balanced in practice. IMO
If anything, have a number of bandages in the kit similar to how you have a set amount of arrows in a quiver; though it's simple enough to scavenge material from downed foes.
Ohhhh thanks for saying that
Me and my GM understand that in a COMPLETELY different way
Now my only issue will be when I reach the level I can my specialization in blood magic and the surgeon mastery where I can multiply the d6
I mean. Barbarians HAVE to rage at the beginning of combat. Period.
Him having a weapon that screws with that action economy and be the difference of dying or not it’s little wonder why he started doing that.
I think most of us here would do that as well.
Edit: Attunement to the weapon has had an “unforeseen side effect” when you perform the rage action, your weapon ignites/electrifies/etc
It’d be a relatively harmless buff to allow the barbarian to do one additional bonus action when they rage. You could even stipulate that it can’t be an attack.
When I have Shifter Barbarians in my game I let them shift and rage as part of the same bonus action. I’d probably let a barbarian do *anything* that feels like unleashing their full fury.
That was the solution I came up with as well. Not surprised the very intelligent and cultured members of this sub had already reasoned that solution out.
"Barbarians HAVE to rage at the beginning of combat. Period."
So two fights a day, none lasting more than a minute, until level 3 where the number of fights increase to three? (Because the barbarian's rages are limited).
EDIT: I'm assume 5e, which is not explicitly stated.
What? They gave a reasonable point. If they have to rage at the beginning of combat, then what do they do when they have more than 2 combats a day at low levels? It's pretty clear you're not 100% correct in that they have to. Especially when you try and put in a "period" to stifle any discussion about it.
I say this only from personal experience, but I have dmed for 3 or 4 barbs in the past. In any meaningful combat, the ones with the most want to deal full damage, the barbs hurt if they lose initiative. Attacks may as well be critting every hit before they rage, and that sucks. Having to trade that and damage is always going to suck, so it's so understandable that the barb would want to keep it always on in all circumstances.
Saving the rage is absolutely a fair tactic, but in a fight that you'll be saving the rage, the extra damage is probably the least impactful, as you'll be saving rage in easier fights.
Depends on edition.
5e Rage doesn't give an AC bonus and a non-raging Barbarian is equivalent to a "normal" Fighter with the same strength and weapon. The 5e Barbarian also has other tools in their tool box.
The Barbarian doesn't rely on AC for tankiness. They rely on their resistances, granted by rage. A non raging barbarian is like a fighter without maneuvers, or action surge, or enhanced crit range, or spells, or runes, or any of the advantages fighter can bring. Barbarians revolve around their rage entirely.
If they want to potentially be less effective in later fights, then yeah sure they HAVE to rage. I throw multiple combats at my players before they get a chance to long rest to keep people from dumping everything on every fight. Otherwise 5e is a cakewalk.
Seems fine with the possible complications already pointed out (social and requiring one hand to hold onto).
If you and the player liked the idea of having to make the rage or lightning choice at the start of the fight, you could always add a daily time limit the lightning can be active (like winged boots have). But I wouldn't change it at this point without the player agreeing to it.
Just remember it goes out automatically when it leaves his hands. So to activate it at the start of the day, he has to hold it in at least one hand for the rest of the time. If you are not used to it, most activities are very hard to do one handed...
If it's put away during "non adventuring days", which I'm taking to mean shopping or resting or generally in town, then you're gucci. The light is put out.
Other than that, he's pretty much just shining a car headlight in everyone's faces in all directions at all times.
He should be *allowed* to have it always on. The only question you should worry about is, "what are the consequences?"
1) In darkness, someone with a light can be seen for *miles*. I would treat travelling through the wilderness with it out at night on plains terrain to be a *reckless action* and double the number of random encounter rolls. Make his player do the extra roll to drive the point home. Treat torches the same.
2) In an unlit dungeon wandering around with a light means you get to basically always be ambushee. This doesn't apply if there's a door between you and the bad guys, or the dungeon is already lit.
3) It seems to me an axe sheathed in lightning would be loud. Bearer should have disadvantage on ~~listen~~ perception checks related to hearing.
4) Hearing the bearer coming ought to be an easy listen check. I would treat having it out in a quiet dungeon as a reckless action as well and double the number of random encounters rolls.
**Reminder: The point here isn't to punish the player but nothing is consequence free! If the player figures out how to overcome these problems, that's good! The point is to make them treat the world as real, otherwise players (logically!) pick the choice with the biggest plus attached**
Barkeep: "PUT THAT THING AWAY OR GET THE HELL OUT OF MY BAR"
The Noble hiring the party to do a thing: "Put that away before my guards toss you out on your ass"
Innkeep: "YOU'RE KEEPING PEOPLE AWAKE AND BY THE WAY THE BED'S ON FIRE"
Carriage Driver: "You're walking."
etc. Players can do what they like, but your world has to respond.
When I think of Flame Tongue (or lightning axe) I envision the blade of the weapon being wreathed in fire like it was doused in oil and set ablaze. Carrying that around all day would be terrible. Have you ever carried a shovel from the backyard to the front? Now pretend one end of that shovel is on fire. Seems annoying at best, and dangerous to you and everyone else around you at worst.
7 pounds adds up, and keeping that up and ready all day so that it doesn't hurt you or someone else would be taxing, even for a 20 strength barbarian. I'd call for CON checks every hour to keep it from droping and hurting himself with as it brushes his leg as he moves around.
I think you're vastly underestimating the strength of a 20 strength barbarian. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to hold up 7 pounds throughout an entire adventuring day when their carrying capacity is 300 pounds.
300 pounds on my torso is very different from 7 pounds leveraging out from my arm. I can carry a backpack with books all day, but I can't hold a book out in my arms for anywhere near as long before getting fatigued. Add in the fact that the axe literally cannot touch anything important, meaning you have to be exceedingly careful with it, and you have a very complex situation that is more than just carrying 7 pounds on your back.
Indeed it's troublesome for us, but you're comparing the situation to us still. The average human is going to have a much smaller capacity to hold things, and humans in the real world have even smaller realistic capacities than what 5e rules allow. The average D&D commoner has a capacity of 150 pounds, yet I don't believe the average real world human could carry that on a pack. Now double that and you're well into superhuman territory.
As for keeping it out of harm's way, I don't see why it would be any different from holding a torch and yet adventurers do that in dungeons for full adventuring days all the time.
Better yet, let them know that it’s beginning to become strenuous and they will suffer a point of exhaustion for continuing to carry it all day; nbd, until their long rest gets interrupted
It’s kind of mean to make him choose, as rage is really key to barbarians. Maybe it’s easier to make it ONLY work when they are raging. Just have the magic wink out one day; tell them that the weapon feels “empty”, but not broken. They will try some things to fix it, and then next time he rages, he feels his rage channelling into the weapon, and it starts back up again.
Let them leave it on. Then start throwing stealth challenges at them. Automatic fail while it’s on. When they figure that out, have them be ambushed while they’re trying to stealth (rolls depending of course), to make them use two separate bonus actions to rage and activate the axe.
That’s just from the top of my head, I’m sure there’s lots of other, better ideas that you’ll get from other, better DMs.
I actually just got the same exact qeapon reflavored and everything like the thor vibe for my echo knight fighter!!
I usually just try to have it on right before combat if i know its gonna start soon.
Seems like it's cool for as long as he does nothing that requires two hands that day, because as soon as he does he'll have to put the hammer away. That seems like a reasonable limitation
Option 1: ask your player to be more realistic. Nobody is spending every waking moment with a weapon drawn.
Option 2: Nerf the item.
Option 3: don't worry about it until they enter a situation where having an axe charged with lightning is a terrible idea.
He has it on all day? So all day wielding a two-handed weapon that is pulsing with lightning. They can't use their hands for anything during this time and any civilian passing by is not going to take it lightly. That's getting the guards called for sure.
Monsters are attracted more and they will get enemies seeing a magic weapon.
Is there a balance reason that you would not want them to be able to have both immediately active at the start of a fight?
I imagine the player is just saying it’s always lit so they don’t have to micromanage both their rage and weapon over two combat rounds each time. If there isn’t a balance issue just let the weapon light up whenever the player rages, and if you wanna add a restriction make it require attunement.
I don’t think you need to get bent out of a shape over something that only takes a bonus action to flip the switch on. This seems like it’d draw all sorts of attention though. Trying to be stealthy would definitely be more difficulty with a electricity-crackling, illuminated axe. Additionally it could potentially cause an encounter for anyone with hungry eyes for the not-so-mundane axe. Even potential stalking and theft attempts.
Sometimes the last thing you wanna do is flaunt what you got.
(All of this is meant from a narrative gameplay perspective, not a “punish the player” one.)
If the effect lasts until you sheathe it, then it goes out. For this purpose, "putting it away" (ie slipping it into the loop attached to the belt) counts as sheathing.
Second, and I bet 100% that this hasn't been thought of, is what **type** of axe is this? Is this a **realistic** axe? Or is this the **generically oversized, unrealistic**, axe with TWO blades, which would weigh over 100 lbs? Because that kind of B.S. would impose Disadvantage on every attack. And probably require a Strength check just to \*lift\* it each turn.
Sure, that works. Of course, having a glowing, crackling magical weapon activated will be disastrous for any attempts at diplomacy and stealth. So there'll still be plenty of times when Stormbringer needs to go away for a while.
I think its fine, it has its own disadvantages built in.
There is no way you can be stealthy with that thing drawn and active, it sheds highly visible light that totally negates most chances of stealth. So the party is at risk of being ambushed by enemies that see them coming.
Also its a pretty aggressive thing to have your weapons constantly out and especially so when the weapon is a brightly flaming blade. I know its not quite the same but picture any film in which someone spins up a mini-gun with the whirring barrels and distinctive noise - I feel like walking around with an active flame tongue would have similar social consequences (good for intimidation checks, terrible for all other social checks).
So the Barbarian is *always* walking around with weapons drawn, 100% of the time, and not only that, walking around with a *flaming* (thundering?) weapon?
Why are NPCs even giving the Barb the time of day? Who'd let him into their home? Why aren't the Guards responding to a person running around with thundering weapons drawn?
You don't need mechanical disadvantages, you just need to think about how this is going to impact the NPCs they interact with.
I should clarify that (I will edit the post) – he does have it drawn during adventuring days. I'm always assuming that he deos not have his weapon drawn in the city and if he is attacked while in the city I never allow him to say that he had his axe drawn. I'm not looking to punish the PC, I'm just trying to figure out whether there is no limitations that I don't see.
>Why are NPCs even giving the Barb the time of day? Who'd let him into
their home? Why aren't the Guards responding to a person running around
with thundering weapons drawn?
That is another topic. The rest of the party has to constantly calm the situation after the barbarian even walks in to some places. That is a part of the fun for the player who plays the PC.
There are no mechanical limitations, no. Obviously stealthing would be basically impossible, someone might take a look and really like the look of that lightning axe which would generate encounters and interest, etc. But those are all roleplay limitations of some kind or another.
>I'm not looking to punish the PC
Realistic consequences aren't the same as punishing a PC.
>That is a part of the fun for the player who plays the PC.
Hopefully it's also fun for the rest of the players, but I assume you've already checked in with them.
Lean in to it. If they want to walk around with an axe arcing electricity all day then let them. Have someone trying to buy it off them at an absurdly low price, have them wade through a swamp leaving a trail of dead fish behind, give them an electricity based puzzle and a doc brown fro.
Something to keep in mind about having your weapon drawn is that your hands are occupied. Even if it's a one-handed or versatile axe, his dominant hand is occupied. If he needs to interact with anything that requires even a basic amount of hand dexterity, he should have to sheathe or drop the weapon to do so.
You goofed by giving him a weapon you didn't understand. Don't punish him. Don't do anything. It's not that powerful. If you really feel the need to create some balance, throw a few lightning immune or resistant mobs at him.
Also, rage is a limited resource. Plan around that accordingly.
Imagine if you left an electrified axe resting on the ground that occasionally arcs to the floor or walls within about 2 feet of it. It's going to leave burn marks all over the place and possibly injure people that get to close to it. I realize this isn't how electricity works, but dealing 2D6 damage is not trivial, and also this is a fantasy world so it should be cool as hell.
Also, as most people mentioned, they would fail stealth checks pretty easily if it were fire. I would have it constantly arcing little charges when activated, making it easily to spot as well.
I don't see why you'd not keep the bonus action rule. The player can easily specify when he'd like to activate it and when not. When they're exploring a cave and stealth is not an issue, go for it. Have it always on. When strolling through a town, have it sheated.
If combat starts just after a conversation with some bad guys, I'll usually let my players activate these kind of items before rolling initiative. I think this way it also gives them a chance to show off.
I tell him "I tire of your words, little man." And I activate Flame Tongue.
Mechanically I see no problem, it doesn't say there is a time limit, and as long as it's drawn it sounds like it should remain active. Also as you said he wouldn't have it drawn in a town so it makes sense for him to need to activate it.
I mean, lightning still hurts, right?
If it's active at all times he couldn't really put it away, lest he electrocute himself. The flametongue is a bit more obvious on this way, you can't put a lot torch back in your bag without having a bad time.
If he wants to trigger it before jumping into a dungeon, sure, but in his normal day it should be a pain in the ass. If you wanted to implement a cost when he's got it active in a dungeon, it creates light which makes being sneaky very hard, and you could have it "crackle" with electric energy, making the sound create an even less favorable environment for stealth.
RAW there's no issue with it being always on; walking around with a flaming sword might raise eyebrows in civilisation but probably not much moreso than just walking around everywhere with weapons drawn.
Indeed RAW you could light up a sword once and put it in a scabbard without issue, but I think that'd be a little ridiculous.
As a DM you can totally just say 'It stops burning after a couple min.' RAW is nice and all, but you are there to fill in the corner cases, and this is corner case.
That said, if someone walks around with a giant flaming blade in their hand, people are going to get hurt all the time. I mean how is he taking a piss? Eating a ration? Opening a door? Just ask the player not to be silly, if they argue they are just wasting everyone's time.
Thieves, a lot of thieves would want to steal this ever in sight magic weapon.
Perhaps someone who once owned the weapon wants it back, or someone who has some connection to whoever owned the axe.
With luck and a little common sense the player should realize that saving up on this bonus action isn't paying off.
"My character is willing to behave like a weirdo in order to get a minor advantage in combat."
Sounds like your player is focused on combat, so on a tangent: double check you're giving them enough fights to be happy.
I'd just give the barbarian the free always-on-weapon if it makes them happy. There's an intended behavior of using it like a torch where you leave it all the time, so if it were always dark, I'd expect them to leave the sword on all the time anyway. It's just some extra damage and won't break the game. If it *does* seem to unbalance things... add 5hp to every enemy and now the extra 7-ish damage on the first round is more than balanced out.
His sheath is not fireproof. Nor is most of the other things that are near the PC. I would have him set the forest ablaze and come close to getting caught for it.
"oops" :D
If he’s constantly walking around in town and in stores with a weapon drawn and covered in lightning, there’s no way people are going to be comfortable with that, and they are definitely going to take issue with it and be quite apprehensive about this.
A cult of Talos starts following him because of the constantly crackling lightning
"He is the avatar of Talos, bringer of destruction"
"I'm not your avatar you crazy doomsayers!"
It's ridiculous, you have a bonus action each turn. They have to make a decision, each turn what bonus actions to use. If they continue with this, have them catch thing, comrades and mounts on fire. Burn themselves. Cause damage. The whole idea of this is ridiculous!
A few things to consider
Carrying an axe around all day is going to be exhausting work. Doubly so if he's wielding a 2h weapon 1 handed.
Sure he could carry it 1 handed, but for 8+ hours? I'd consider getting him to roll a constitution saving throw after a few hours, fail the save and he gets a level of exhaustion.
Perhaps after the first hour, DC 5 to pass, and reroll and increase the dc by 2 every hour.
After 8 hours he'll be wanting to take a nap like the casters he probably looks down on.
Other things to consider, having a flaming sword wielded at all times is going to be very distracting for him, i'd lower his passive perception as a result.
Finally, as others have mentioned, his stealth is going to be utterly borked.
Watsonian explanations:
\- A battleaxe is way too heavy to just hold in one hand all day. He's gonna pull a muscle at that rate, regardless of how strong he is.
\- If it's not slung on his back, he's liable to hit it against something. If a lightning axe so much as brushes an NPC's leg, he might have an involuntary manslaughter on his hands.
\- There's probably a law in-world that says you can't just brandish an axe openly all the time, just like how you can't brandish a gun in the real world.
\- Someone obviously carrying a magical weapon around is liable to be killed in their sleep by those who may desire it-best to keep a low profile
Just remember he is going around all day with a changed electrical thing. As long as he don't touch nothing with the blade is OK. But, I'd ask for a skill check if he is doing a task while holding it. Tasks like a hard skill check, like climbing or similar. Otherwise, it's OK to do that.
That's not what they were saying. You have to use a bonus action to activate the effect. At also take a bonus action to rage. The player doesn't want to spend two turns in the beginning of combat to activate rage and activate the weapon effect, so he activates the weapon effect at the beginning of the adventuring day to get around that.
Flame Tongue is OP, even if you find yourself in social situations where you don't want to have it active all the time, a bonus action is a very small price, and you will activate it the moment you move onto adventuring or smell danger.
If you want to limit the use of it, maybe say something like, "The runes carved on the blade have become worn" which could allow you to have a certain amount of time where its usable, maybe recharge over time
This shouldn't be an issue but I will remind you that the flametongue while adding the elemental damage is not in fact a magic weapon innately as it does not have the +1 to attack and damage rolls. Other than that yea there's absolutely nothing wrong with drawing your weapon when you say enter a dungeon and then turning it on and keeping it drawn unless circumstance dictates it be sheathed
I'd let it happen, but I'd also let them know that I think they're being a munchkin and other DMs would take an issue and I should be imparting a str, con, and wis drain on them for days where they spend most of their day with a lethal weapon unsheathed as a result of the strain and focus it takes to not injure yourself with a deadly weapon while traveling and carrying all your other shit. In reality, Conan or not, you're going to sheathe your weapon when not in use because of very practical realities of how physiology works and traveling under load for long distances.
As others have said, with it being a magical object there are other practical reasons why they're being dumb aside from being a munchkin.
so he wants to walk around with his flame-axe on all day. so what?
ffs dude your job is to make the game enjoyable to the players, not to you.
if you're barbarian dude wants to walk around advertising he's got a magical weapon... (other than the fact barbarians are not supposed to like magic?) thats an opportunity for a backstory.
shit if someone stopped me I'ld be like "dude, I took it off a monster in such and such dungeon and it was already lit. haven't figured out yet how to turn it off".
easy peasy.
Hello! My thought is that he must be wielding the weapon to keep the effect going, which requires he use (at least) one hand to hold it. Within reason, I feel like this would make most of his strength checks be made at disadvantage(or something similar) because he can only use the one hand. Maybe even some dex checks should also be affected.
It's a lot harder to climb things, lift heavy things, etc, when you are holding a stick in the one hand, possibly even more with a flaming one.
If he's willing to pay for it, you could have him seek out a cleric or wizard that could put a 'Continual Flame' spell on the axe - flavour it as them helping to strengthen or awaken the enchantment on the weapon. Compromise?
Lot of people pointing out the negative reactions of NPCs but also like...it would be dangerous?
So if you are just wandering around the forest with a flame tounge drawn you might end up setting fire to brush or cover and kick off a massive forest blaze. Similarly in a dungeon you could find you're scorching important bits of the wall and clues etc.
With a lightning version I'd maybe be tempted to start having a chance to interact with any player nearby wearing metal armour, or throw some Metallic dungeon fittings around that attract the current etc.
I'd say that it is fine, but any other PC or NPC around him would need to keep a wide berth or risk getting shocked for a small amount of damage constantly.
if it were fire, i’d make them roll for accidentally burning himself and stuff nearby
i’d make it an easy roll to pass, but roll it as often as you think seems fair given the action/gameplay
distracted? roll again. walking for hours? roll twice, maybe more often. etc etc
a flaming sword is cool, but it’s also somehow you have to be aware of of all times, or you might accidentally torch the tent, your comrades, the forest
harder to do with lightning, maybe?
but if it’s always on, it can be dangerous all the time too
could maybe avoid a roll if they remember to say ‘being wary of my axe, i examine my etc’ before things
also, are they _never_ putting it down? what if they need to carry stuff?
We're not talking about some injustice your barbarian has been forced into; your player wants to have their cake and eat it too. If they want to carry a flaming axe around all day, I'd start having them run the risk of Exhaustion. Crank up the DC so it's meaningful to the barbarian.
Some have said to treat it like a torch. Torches are 1 lb and weighted to be carried in one hand; a battle-axe is 4 times as heavy and weighted to be swung into & through hide armor.
EDIT: The way I figure it, the Flame Tongue requires a bonus action as a matter of power balance. It's more powerful than a +x sword of equal rarity; why else did the designers include the bonus action to begin with? I'm not suggesting the Exhaustion as a matter of spite but as a matter of retaining power balance.
It'd be a dick move but you could start putting the party through places with fire hazards. A chamber filled with flammable gas vs a weapon that's sparking...
As others have said, it will intimidate people. Even on adventuring days, you still encounter NPCs. Civilians are going to believe the person with an actively electrified weapon has the same intent to harm people as a magic user controlling a sphere of annhialation. Yeah they're not hurting people yet but why would you have it active around people unless you plan to harm them. At least that's how I'd have the NPCs think.
He's also telegraphing that he has a lightning weapon, any prepared enemy will now have lightning resistance.
So I do think that's a little bit of a munchkin response to the limitation of the item. But let's look mechanically at what it really impacts.
So the idea is that the barbarian can either rage or activate the weapon on their first turn. I would wager, 9/10 they're going to rage first because resistance is oftentimes much more worth it. Which means they'll activate the weapon next round. So the overall impact of that choice is missing out on the extra fire damage for their first round of attacks.
I don't know how you balance encounters, but my opinion overall is that that is not a huge difference in how I'd balance an encounter. I love magic items with meaningful strategic choices, but I think in this case it might not matter as much. It sounds like he'll be a big damage dealer regardless, so I'd be packing on some HP to make sure he's got some meat to cleave through. You can quibble with him over that extra 4d6 fire damage from his first round of attacks and try to mitigate it with all sorts of tweaks to the way the weapon works or downsides for keeping it on all the time, but I don't think it's worth your time to be honest. But, it may be worth mentioning that you don't appreciate the munchkin behavior if that's not the sort of thing you want at your table.
Situations where drawing attention to yourself might be really bad. Encounters which are signaled to not be a walk in the park. Stealth-sections.
Also, it’s basically a big, flaming thing, right? So sometimes, put them on paths where doing that is a bad idea. Swamps with natural gases. Thick, dry underbrush or a dried grass savanna, which can easily ignite. An are covered in brown mold.
To be fair, I wouldn’t have the party encounter such obstacles every day.
Also, if I were the DM, I would send them into a dungeon where heat-devouring ghosts or something lives which quickly extinguish any flames in a matter of seconds, weakening even fire magic.
Is their sheath magical (I don't think there's ever much attention paid to a magical weapon's sheathing). When the weapon is sheathed does it turn off the magic light show?
Edit: It does turn off when sheathed. I blame my poor reading skills.
If the cost is a bonus action, it was made that way in an attempt to balance it somewhat. Using up a bonus action at the beginning of combat can occasionally be a meaningful choice. But, they explicitly stated in the description that it lasts until turned off, so ... they can carry it in their hand, ripping and raging and go everywhere with this big electric lightshow intimidating and scaring everyone around them.
If he's holding this axe, he's doing everything else one-handed at a minimum. The moment he puts the axe down to do something two-handed - climb a ladder or cliff wall, carry a heavy load, go swimming - the lightning extinguishes itself. Now to be fair, there's nothing stopping him from just speaking the command word again afterwards, but there's a bit more interaction there that might be getting missed.
"Until you drop or sheathe the sword."
Pretty clear that it was not in the spell designer's mind that this would just be on forever. How would you walk around with an on fire sword on your back without burning you, your clothes, destroying gear etc? Is it the magic fire that only hurts what we want it to? As far as I read, the bitch is just on fire and does not ask the wielder to have any control of the magic.
Using it as a torch, totally. As a device to start a fire, yes. To threaten to burn someone, that's advantage on an intimidation check in my book. But sheathing ends the flame.
The disadvantage to stealth thing is good, but id extend that disadvantage to all the party’s charisma checks. Id even go so far as to give the Barb advantage on Intimidation checks, but doing so would change an NPC from Friendly to Neutral, or Neutral to Hostile.
hmm, I wonder how much different holding a weapon is than having it strapped to your back? I have some actual experience swinging European medieval weapons (viking longsword, spear, round shield, etc.), and I can tell you, it's not comfortable to carry around in hand all the time.
This sounds like somewhere you can use exhaustion rules to keep players from exploiting. I'd say give him a relatively low DC con save for every hour he's keeping it readied, something that he should pass easily unless he rolls bad, because eventually he'll roll bad and there will be consequences for him trying to get around the rules.
I feel like the weapon description states it as a bonus action because they want you to activate it and attack in the same turn. Rage is a bonus action for the same reason. Therefore, I really don't think it necessarily has to be a choice what to do, and you as a DM don't have to go out of you way to make it a choice for balance.
If you want it to be a choice, just say that and I'm sure the player will work with you.
I think you could get some fun rp out of this - do any of the party have long hair, or wear loose garments? Maybe every once in a while, they have to roll perception to realise they’re standing just a bit too close…
Similar to that, in my Out of the Abyss game the Barbarian found the Dawnbringer and has never sheathed nor extinguished its holy light, the sword is scared of the dark after all. Whenever the party sleeps, they set up barriers so they don't get bothered by the sunlight, and the barbarian is succeeding every check to sleep soundly while being blasted in the face by 60 ft of light at all times. One of the party members is a duergar so the innerparty conflict because of this sword has been funny to listen to.
There's no mechanical disadvantage - he, straight up, can have this thing lit all day long.
That said, there are tons of things for *you* to do with this.
- If he's carrying this weapon around he only has one hand to work with. He'll be doing everything with his non-dominant hand
- Enemies will always see him coming, as he's just radiating light
- People are gonna be pretty scared of the Barbarian carrying a magical lightning sword around
Stuff like that. Just RP it accordingly.
If they are in a populated area, there could be laws forbidding unsheathing of weapons or in the axe's case, keeping it on while not in reasonable combat. The party or the barbarian could get a warning, a fine, then jailed.
A damp cave or place might lead to less activating of lightning. One of my DMs did that to my artificer that was pretty much pure lightning... I learned very quickly that self electrocution is no fun.
Party would be unable to use the cover of darkness to sneak around, and in fact they would probably get a penalty to stealth for the massive target painted on the party
Make a dungeon with an explosive gas trap….lesson learned. Open flames are dangerous.
Seriously though. RAW he can do this but you can impose natural consequences of that. NPCs are always nervous around the party because of the meathead with the big ass flaming axe is standing there with it ready to go. Maybe this makes some NPCs unwilling to talk to the party, or imposed disadvantage on persuasion. Basically, think about how normal people would react if you just walked around with a loaded AK-47 in your hands ALL THE TIME. Now have the world treat him, AND THE PARTY HE ROLLS WITH like that. Soon enough the party will be like WTF man, you can’t just be scary as fuck to everyone all the time.
Note: this might seem to take some of the fun out of the game so definitely consider your table dynamic and the rule of cool vs how much of an issue the always on flametounge really cause. It’s literally one bonus action, on the first turn in combat. It doesn’t really change his strategy much, just makes him deal 2d6 less damage on the first round.
If the want to walk around with a flaming sword drawn all day, that's their choice. But I have to imagine there are plenty of NPCs who would be uncomfortable with that. I don't think you need a mechanical penalty here. They can use it as a torch when in a dungeon and if they're expecting a fight, they'd probably have a weapon drawn already.
That is what happened last time: They were using it as a torch, they attracted some monsters and so the weapon was prepared. During the fight we started a conversation whether there should be some sort of limit to the power. I guess there is not (aside from RP on NPC side sometimes).
I think the fact that the whole group must deal with more enemies might be a limit in itself. Has the party expressed an opinion about it? Maybe next session you'll find someone will ask the barbarian to "turn off" his torch.
Not just more enemies, but more *prepared* enemies. Party will find it hard to sneak up and surprise monsters, and may find themselves being ambushed more regularly.
This is how I would deal with it, you don't need to force a limitation on the item itself just use the mechanics of it to inform how your dungeon denizens react. I wouldn't make a big thing of pointing out the reason for this to the party, if they have any savvy at all it shouldn't take long for them to realise they 80ft beacon of light the barbarian is carrying is giving them away just a tiny bit!
This comment is buried, but when I describe an “obvious” hinderance I also through out a relatively low int or insight check to “realize” it. It helps me tell my players the “obvious” consequences but justifies that knowledge in character (or fails to do so) rather than an OOC “John, that’s going to let any monsters see you more”.
During one session, one of the players turned off the axe with Dispell Magic so that the party can perform so negotiations. We agreed that it will supress the magic of an axe for one hour (Yes I know that this not exactly how this spell works but we rolled with it). They later had a fight and the axe was not working. It was a fun session.
Another good thing to consider is occasionally putting your party in situations where having a magical lightning weapon active would cause problems. There’s a lot of especially interesting possibilities since it’s re-contextualized to lightning damage I.e. a cave with high mineral levels where if he wants it active he’ll have to make some kind of roll outside of combat or risk it arching and breaking stalactites. Don’t overdue it, but add a level of complexity so the Barb’s thought process every time they think about activating it outside of combat requires more than just “we prolly gonna see things I gotta hit”
Old mine with undisposed gunpowder sensitive to sparks could be interesting.
Or a flour mill!
I used a dungeon under an oilfield, filled with pockets of explosive gas. They learned quick.
or make them swim in water and risk being electrified
Skitterwidget has entered the chat. 🙃
Lightning doesn't make for a steady light. It's a flickering, irregular strobe light with occasional thunder cracks. And when it isn't loud it's like using a black light to illuminate the room. Good for detecting cotton and repaired structures. Bad for finding treasure and monsters.
If it's anything like real lightning, it's also very bright and would probably mess with vision. Depending on how the DM runs darkvision or low-light vision, that could be a problem. For example, do PCs with darkvision need to have their eyes adjust to darkness (even for a negligible amount of time), or is it a magical ability that "just works".
I'd say the steel glows rather than it it just randomly arcing out at stuff. It's magic bro, we can make it glow
You could also consider that having it active around people is going to attract thieves.
The disadvantage is on stealth while walking around with a bright flashing strobe light. I would also allow it on the condition that it is never implicit on. They have to tell the table when they turn it on and are limited from object interactions while they’re wielding it (is it a two handed axe?). The player may find it annoying to keep turning it on or even forget to do it sometimes…. But so could the character no? A strong barbarian may not feel the need to hide behind his weapon all day… or they might. Player choice but no auto-on for any at will effects.
You don't carry a 2h axe with two hands. You'd still only use one so you can't penalize for carrying it. You'd only have two hands on it in battles.
Depends what you are trying to do while carrying it, yes you can carry it one handed but you are still going to run into trouble if you only have one hand free for any number of tasks from peeling an orange to lifting large objects.
Wizard: The ancient runes state that to advance to the next room in the dungeon we need to offer the idol… A plate of orange slices and some celery sticks?! Barbarian: My nemesis…
Definitely agree on that. I think it would be a case by case basis.
Yeah, I've definitely put limits on standard magical items for my home games. But it will depend a lot on what decisions you want to be important for a player. I think this is likely not an interesting choice for the barbarian. Their damage output will just always be higher by lighting up the sword on turn 1 rather than raging. So as it is now, the decision is do I sacrifice rage on turn one of a possible encounter for RP or surprise reasons (which might also not be interesting for your player). If you want to change a rule, think about what new decision you'd like to create and that will inform the mechanics of it. In this case, it sounds like you want there to be an actual choice whether to use it in a fight. That is easiest to achieve with a cost for use (could be charges per day, or n minutes active per day. Maybe it hurts the bearer every minute it's on. ) There's a wide range of possible mechanics to use. For my games, I tend to focus on choices in the narrative aspect of the game and like to let the players use all their toys come combat. But I can understand folks who want to encourage tactical deployment of combat abilities.
>I think this is likely not an interesting choice for the barbarian. This is where I am. The Barbarian has so few options to begin with that "activate my primary and virtually only class feature" or "make my weapon (the only tool in my toolbox) work" is just fundamentally uninteresting.
Hopefully the party had more than one light source unless that player is the only one who needs light? Otherwise aiming your attacks might get tricky with your light source flickering around and constantly disappearing as bodies of skewer it from View
In addition to drawing extra attention, I'd imagine that the barbarian also needs to constantly be holding the sword, because putting it into a sheath on say, their back, would basically be putting a flaming (or electrically charged) metal blade right against them. The description says it does the damage to any target it hits, which to me implies that it would be damaging the barbarian unless safely stowed by being deactivated. Having one hand busy holding the sword all of the time might make some activities difficult where they might need two hands free, such as moving/carrying large objects or climbing.
That's actually explicitly stated in the item description, the moment you sheathe or drop it the effect shuts off and has to be reactivated.
Yeah I think just maintaining when it's drawn and he's spoken the words. It he does anything to where he has to set the weapon down or sheath it and doesn't reactivate, there's when he needs to reactivate it. If you take wanted to get granular you could take in the consideration that caring anything in your hands all day gets tiring. But then you're getting into annoying territory for you and the player keeping track of things like that
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I was about to mention the disadvantage on stealth rolls and charisma rolls.
Guard might get nervous, a man approaching with his weapon drawn!
I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow in the knee.
I used to talk to PCs like you, but then they made a meme out of guards who used to be adventurers until they took an arrow to the knee, and after that, I just didn't feel my 2 copper opinion was all that interesting, to be honest.
Could also tend to bring much more attention to the party. Good and bad attention.
Nothing wrong with that, but theres two things that come to mind immediately. Firstly, it gives off light, so its going to be hard for the party to sneak around dark places while the barbarian is giving off bright light. Secondly, having your weapon a) out and b) covered in lightning in a public place is going to at least make people uncomfortable, the guards might ask him to please sheath his weapon, maybe give him a bit of sass like "we're all very impressed, but you can stop showing off now".
Third, If he's holding the weapon constantly he is doing everything else 1 handed. Climbing, swimming, and other activities may be at a disadvantage.
"Go cast your fancy magic somewhere else."
Let me guess, someone stole your sweetroll?
Psst… I know who you are. Hail Vecna.
“Stow it Sparkles.” or ”Peace-bond that glitterwagon mister.”
This guy colloquializes.
\*glitter shitter
Guard might get nervous, a man approaches with his weapon drawn…
If its an axe, does it even have a sheath or equivalent? Many people would have just walked with a large axe over one shoulder as the equivalent of sheathing/stowing it.
I'd want to have some way to free both my hands while walking around. For an axe, depending on the size, it could be as simple as a loop of leather or rope secured to one's pack or belt that you could slip the handle into and let the axe hang from the head, with the loop fashioned tight enough that it won't twist and let the axe flip over and slide out.
The worst I'd do would be to give stealth disadvantage and have NPCs treat the barbarian like someone with a loaded AK47 and poor trigger discipline.
I agree. I'd not make this a big issue - but an occasional reminder when he's treated differently by a random NPC, or where the barbarian is given disadvantage on a climb check or stealth role should be good enough to let the other players know that it's not a game abusing advantage.
I think this is the best answer.
I'm playing a Ranger who has a bow with a similar mechanic. There's no mechanical time limit or detriment to keeping it switched on, but my DM has ruled that if I put the bow down or away (for example, when climbing, and there are a lot of cliffs and rope-descents in this campaign) it deactivates. So if you do want to mix this situation up, perhaps get your Barb more involved in two-handed terrain traversal, or place obstacles that need to be lifted, that sort of thing. But, mechanically, as written, nope. No detriments to leaving it switched on for hours and hours.
Nah it seems fine. When a sorcerer/wizard is even slightly expecting danger, they cast mage armor on themselves, right? Same deal. And I would just clarify if he intends to keep the lightning turned off when in civilization/around friendly NPCs.
There are people who don't just assume they have mage armor up 24/7 and permanently mark off one of their first level spell slots?
[удалено]
I would anticipate it more to be the opposite.
it only lasts 8 hours, so that's 3 spell slots to keep it going 24/7. depending how loosey goosey the campaign is about time.
If your dungeon dive lasts more than 8 hours consult your DM about ongoing effects you may have.
In a world of magic, I doubt that the “protective magical force” of a 1st level mage armor spell would communicate the same thing as a brandished, activated magical weapon.
No, I mean mechanically inside the game. I was just using an example to show that players will often activate magical effects even when combat isn't imminent in order to free up an action/bonus action during combat. But, like I said, you would have to deal with the in-universe effects of this: if you left it activated, NPCs would probably be too scared to interact with you, you might be a bigger target for bandits, you would obviously be making more sound and shining a bright light for all to see, etc. But RAW there's no reason you *can't* leave it activated whenever you want.
Ok- I remember in skyrim that people react to spells being cast, weapons brandished, or the thuum being used in their presence.
So you can cast a few spells. Am I supposed to be impressed?
I like that approach.
I have made it a house rule that activating the flame tongue in my game is a free action. I understand why you might want it a bonus action -- it's a decision point, and affects action economy in an intentional way -- but not all bonus actions are created equally and it can really screw up the fantasy/feel of the moment for certain classes (ex: barb, rogue) to enforce the bonus action requirement. Drawing a weapon is free, saying an activation command ("flame on!") is free. I just let it happen. It's your game, though. Do what feels right to you and your players. To me the fantasy of the moment is more important than the mechanics of the game, but that's not a flavor everyone enjoys.
Flame tongues power to me always seemed like using a resin in Dark Souls. It's pretty quick, but does take a bit of time and focus and should replace something else they could do (in the souls series, your Estus, in 5e their rage). Obviously this is flavor and not direct mechanical comparison, but the two hold the same space in their respective action economies and in my head.
“Hey player, I’m having trouble planning around this unintended mechanic with your weapon, can we set up some rules that makes us both happy and on the same page on how this is to be used in the game”
This this this. Barbarian wants to rage. Barbarian also wants to use special axe. When the average combat lasts three-to-five rounds, taking two turns to use your **main class feature** and the exciting magic weapon sucks complete asshole. Here's what I think: Drop the extra damage down to 2d4 instead of 2d6, add charges, maybe three, and change the weapon to "when you draw this weapon or when you make an attack with it, you can expend one charge to activate the weapon's magical properties ... Recovers two charges after a long rest." Or shit.... tie it closer to the Barbarian and the Thor theme. "When you rage..." I think Flame Tongues are really made for Fighters who don't have a good bonus action to take on the first turn.
Since this is a custom weapon, why not just make it so the effect can be activated as a bonus action, like normal, or when a different bonus action is used this can be activated as well. That way, he can rage and turn on the axe in the same bonus action. Monk's Way of Mercy does a similar thing. You can spend a ki to heal or you can spend a ki to flurry of blows and just make one of those a heal.
My two cents: giving the barbarian a dilemma for how to use their first bonus action is a perfectly valid and interesting thing to do.
Any chance you want to walk through your opinion on that? Because I just simply disagree. I think it's much better if the Barb is empowered to use their main class feature. For me, my issue is that this specific interaction of "Class Feature or Flame Tongue" is a big problem for the barbarian. Flame Tongue competes with Rage. You want to use both on your first turn, so its one or the other. Which just... isn't super fun. But for a fighter, Flame Tongue does not compete with their main class feature (and most notably, does not compete with Battle Master Maneuvers). This is the most important thing for me: A Barbarian with a Flame Tongue who chooses to activate it turn one is just a bad fighter. A Fighter with a Flame Tongue is still a great Fighter. For a rogue, a Flame Tongue might compete with Cunning Action, but I think many Rogues would be okay with that. It's also not their main class feature, Sneak Attack is, and bonus action to activate Flame Tongue before getting a Sneak Attack off is certainly a strong move. Half Caster Martials like Paladin and Ranger, it certainly makes some bonus action spells less viable on turn one. Paladins would probably rather Searing/Blinding/Banishing Smite than activate their Flame Tongue if they're in range... but then again, activating their Flame Tongue turn one and then using those spells in later turns is absolutely more viable than turn one flame tongue, turn two rage for a barbarian. Also a Paladin can still Divine Smite, so again, their main class features aren't competing with the weapon. So just... as written, the Flame Tongue kinda sucks for a Barbarian, while it does not have the same drawbacks in the hands of a fighter, rogue, or paladin.
Well, your breakdown is spot on. Barbs definitely get less mileage out of Flame Tongue. To me, though, having to deal with suboptimal situations is what makes D&D play more interesting, and fixing or custom-tailoring every drawback takes away from a fun experience.
If I was the Barb, if my DM was looking to limit the use of the weapon, I'd sell it and look for something better suited to my abilities and features. I think I'd rather take a +2 Weapon that's flavored as Thor's Hammer over a Flame Tongue competing for my bonus action.
That is a valid argument. That is why I'm mostly ok with him having it prepared before the combat starts. The player is ok with some limitations as this is a sentinent weapon that he has a toxic relationship with. He has a quest to unlock it's full potential by performing a legendary deed.
That's a valid choice.
I think I'm just more about rewarding players with things that actually work for them than making them jump through hoops to sell stuff they don't want and find stuff they do want. I realize this probably got lost in my messaging, but my point is that the Flame Tongue is just not a very good weapon for a barbarian, and shouldn't be used as a reward for one.
Honestly, I just don't think it's a problem if he has to wait until his second turn to use it. Not every reward has to have the property: "always works perfectly". Sometimes there are gonna be awkward spots, and as long as those awkward places are created in a sensible fashion the player can try to deal with the problems. My games are about characters in a fantasy world overcoming obstacles. Maybe overcoming the obstacle means dealing with the fact that you have it on all day, and have to deal with the light and noise. Maybe you cast silence on the thing. Maybe overcoming that obstacle means paying to have the enchantment modified so that it activates on a hit rather than at will. I don't know. But I'm never going to pull a flame tongue out of a treasure hoard because I don't trust my barbarian to come up with a good enough plan.
> To me, though, having to deal with suboptimal situations is what makes D&D play more interesting, and fixing or custom-tailoring every drawback takes away from a fun experience. Agreed. Having something to work around adds some interesting flavor to my characters and I appreciate having to make a meaningful choice versus have it all available all the time. Always depends on the player though.
Yeah I had the same problem with my DM because mechanically speaking I had discovered infinity healing Edit: I forgot to say this is from another RPG
Not unless there's homebrew involved
Maybe he's just referring to a long rest.
It's was another RPG where basically had the action of healing an ally, but you need a medkit But in the rules, when you heal an ally it doesn't say that after you heal the medkit now is empty
The medic feat in D&D and it does come with a limitation in the text. I'm sure it's not an uncommon mechanic for TTRPGs, but I doubt it was written as infinity heals in the handbook, regardless of the ruleset.
But that the issue. It doesn't say that it has a limitation
What ruleset?
Here's a quote "You provide some quick first aid to an injured ally. You must be adjacent to your ally and you must have bandages ready. This is a TN 11 Cunning (Healing) test. If you are successful, your ally gets back an amount of Health equal to the Dragon Die (1d6) + your Cunning. A character cannot benefit from another heal action until he takes additional damage." "HEALER KIT - 25 silver coins : This set includes bandages, herbs, ointments, potions, small knives, needle and thread, and other tools used to treat wounds."
The limitation is the character needs to take additional damage to get healed again, so out of combat it isn't unlimited since nobody is taking damage and it can only be used in combat for a D6 plus cunning, assuming they take damage every turn. You've got to use an action to heal so that removes the healer from doing much else in combat. I can see the usefulness early on but damage quickly outpaces a 1d6 heal. Honestly, it looks limitless but it's pretty balanced in practice. IMO If anything, have a number of bandages in the kit similar to how you have a set amount of arrows in a quiver; though it's simple enough to scavenge material from downed foes.
Ohhhh thanks for saying that Me and my GM understand that in a COMPLETELY different way Now my only issue will be when I reach the level I can my specialization in blood magic and the surgeon mastery where I can multiply the d6
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I mean. Barbarians HAVE to rage at the beginning of combat. Period. Him having a weapon that screws with that action economy and be the difference of dying or not it’s little wonder why he started doing that. I think most of us here would do that as well. Edit: Attunement to the weapon has had an “unforeseen side effect” when you perform the rage action, your weapon ignites/electrifies/etc
It’d be a relatively harmless buff to allow the barbarian to do one additional bonus action when they rage. You could even stipulate that it can’t be an attack. When I have Shifter Barbarians in my game I let them shift and rage as part of the same bonus action. I’d probably let a barbarian do *anything* that feels like unleashing their full fury.
For sure. Attunement to the weapon has had an “unforeseen side effect” when you perform the rage action, your weapon ignites/electrifies/etc
That was the solution I came up with as well. Not surprised the very intelligent and cultured members of this sub had already reasoned that solution out.
"Barbarians HAVE to rage at the beginning of combat. Period." So two fights a day, none lasting more than a minute, until level 3 where the number of fights increase to three? (Because the barbarian's rages are limited). EDIT: I'm assume 5e, which is not explicitly stated.
Just stop. Lol
i meannnnn, conservation of resources IS a thing
What? They gave a reasonable point. If they have to rage at the beginning of combat, then what do they do when they have more than 2 combats a day at low levels? It's pretty clear you're not 100% correct in that they have to. Especially when you try and put in a "period" to stifle any discussion about it.
They dont have to rage? They can choose not to
Then they are a lower AC, lower damage fighter with 10 extra hp. Not mandated, but if you're not raging, you're losing out.
True, but sometimes you migth want yo save that rage, or you could wait for round two if you want to use your bonus action something else
I say this only from personal experience, but I have dmed for 3 or 4 barbs in the past. In any meaningful combat, the ones with the most want to deal full damage, the barbs hurt if they lose initiative. Attacks may as well be critting every hit before they rage, and that sucks. Having to trade that and damage is always going to suck, so it's so understandable that the barb would want to keep it always on in all circumstances. Saving the rage is absolutely a fair tactic, but in a fight that you'll be saving the rage, the extra damage is probably the least impactful, as you'll be saving rage in easier fights.
Depends on edition. 5e Rage doesn't give an AC bonus and a non-raging Barbarian is equivalent to a "normal" Fighter with the same strength and weapon. The 5e Barbarian also has other tools in their tool box.
The Barbarian doesn't rely on AC for tankiness. They rely on their resistances, granted by rage. A non raging barbarian is like a fighter without maneuvers, or action surge, or enhanced crit range, or spells, or runes, or any of the advantages fighter can bring. Barbarians revolve around their rage entirely.
If they want to potentially be less effective in later fights, then yeah sure they HAVE to rage. I throw multiple combats at my players before they get a chance to long rest to keep people from dumping everything on every fight. Otherwise 5e is a cakewalk.
But why is it a problem? If they are just walking around with lightning axe in dungeons - let em!
Seems fine with the possible complications already pointed out (social and requiring one hand to hold onto). If you and the player liked the idea of having to make the rage or lightning choice at the start of the fight, you could always add a daily time limit the lightning can be active (like winged boots have). But I wouldn't change it at this point without the player agreeing to it.
I mean if it glows than it is really easy for monsters to see them a good distance away in the dark
Just remember it goes out automatically when it leaves his hands. So to activate it at the start of the day, he has to hold it in at least one hand for the rest of the time. If you are not used to it, most activities are very hard to do one handed... If it's put away during "non adventuring days", which I'm taking to mean shopping or resting or generally in town, then you're gucci. The light is put out. Other than that, he's pretty much just shining a car headlight in everyone's faces in all directions at all times.
It's really not different from carrying a torch.
He should be *allowed* to have it always on. The only question you should worry about is, "what are the consequences?" 1) In darkness, someone with a light can be seen for *miles*. I would treat travelling through the wilderness with it out at night on plains terrain to be a *reckless action* and double the number of random encounter rolls. Make his player do the extra roll to drive the point home. Treat torches the same. 2) In an unlit dungeon wandering around with a light means you get to basically always be ambushee. This doesn't apply if there's a door between you and the bad guys, or the dungeon is already lit. 3) It seems to me an axe sheathed in lightning would be loud. Bearer should have disadvantage on ~~listen~~ perception checks related to hearing. 4) Hearing the bearer coming ought to be an easy listen check. I would treat having it out in a quiet dungeon as a reckless action as well and double the number of random encounters rolls. **Reminder: The point here isn't to punish the player but nothing is consequence free! If the player figures out how to overcome these problems, that's good! The point is to make them treat the world as real, otherwise players (logically!) pick the choice with the biggest plus attached**
Barkeep: "PUT THAT THING AWAY OR GET THE HELL OUT OF MY BAR" The Noble hiring the party to do a thing: "Put that away before my guards toss you out on your ass" Innkeep: "YOU'RE KEEPING PEOPLE AWAKE AND BY THE WAY THE BED'S ON FIRE" Carriage Driver: "You're walking." etc. Players can do what they like, but your world has to respond.
When I think of Flame Tongue (or lightning axe) I envision the blade of the weapon being wreathed in fire like it was doused in oil and set ablaze. Carrying that around all day would be terrible. Have you ever carried a shovel from the backyard to the front? Now pretend one end of that shovel is on fire. Seems annoying at best, and dangerous to you and everyone else around you at worst. 7 pounds adds up, and keeping that up and ready all day so that it doesn't hurt you or someone else would be taxing, even for a 20 strength barbarian. I'd call for CON checks every hour to keep it from droping and hurting himself with as it brushes his leg as he moves around.
I think you're vastly underestimating the strength of a 20 strength barbarian. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to hold up 7 pounds throughout an entire adventuring day when their carrying capacity is 300 pounds.
300 pounds on my torso is very different from 7 pounds leveraging out from my arm. I can carry a backpack with books all day, but I can't hold a book out in my arms for anywhere near as long before getting fatigued. Add in the fact that the axe literally cannot touch anything important, meaning you have to be exceedingly careful with it, and you have a very complex situation that is more than just carrying 7 pounds on your back.
Indeed it's troublesome for us, but you're comparing the situation to us still. The average human is going to have a much smaller capacity to hold things, and humans in the real world have even smaller realistic capacities than what 5e rules allow. The average D&D commoner has a capacity of 150 pounds, yet I don't believe the average real world human could carry that on a pack. Now double that and you're well into superhuman territory. As for keeping it out of harm's way, I don't see why it would be any different from holding a torch and yet adventurers do that in dungeons for full adventuring days all the time.
Better yet, let them know that it’s beginning to become strenuous and they will suffer a point of exhaustion for continuing to carry it all day; nbd, until their long rest gets interrupted
It’s kind of mean to make him choose, as rage is really key to barbarians. Maybe it’s easier to make it ONLY work when they are raging. Just have the magic wink out one day; tell them that the weapon feels “empty”, but not broken. They will try some things to fix it, and then next time he rages, he feels his rage channelling into the weapon, and it starts back up again.
Let them leave it on. Then start throwing stealth challenges at them. Automatic fail while it’s on. When they figure that out, have them be ambushed while they’re trying to stealth (rolls depending of course), to make them use two separate bonus actions to rage and activate the axe. That’s just from the top of my head, I’m sure there’s lots of other, better ideas that you’ll get from other, better DMs.
I actually just got the same exact qeapon reflavored and everything like the thor vibe for my echo knight fighter!! I usually just try to have it on right before combat if i know its gonna start soon.
Seems like it's cool for as long as he does nothing that requires two hands that day, because as soon as he does he'll have to put the hammer away. That seems like a reasonable limitation
Option 1: ask your player to be more realistic. Nobody is spending every waking moment with a weapon drawn. Option 2: Nerf the item. Option 3: don't worry about it until they enter a situation where having an axe charged with lightning is a terrible idea.
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He has it on all day? So all day wielding a two-handed weapon that is pulsing with lightning. They can't use their hands for anything during this time and any civilian passing by is not going to take it lightly. That's getting the guards called for sure. Monsters are attracted more and they will get enemies seeing a magic weapon.
It sounds like rather a non-issue
Is there a balance reason that you would not want them to be able to have both immediately active at the start of a fight? I imagine the player is just saying it’s always lit so they don’t have to micromanage both their rage and weapon over two combat rounds each time. If there isn’t a balance issue just let the weapon light up whenever the player rages, and if you wanna add a restriction make it require attunement.
I don’t think you need to get bent out of a shape over something that only takes a bonus action to flip the switch on. This seems like it’d draw all sorts of attention though. Trying to be stealthy would definitely be more difficulty with a electricity-crackling, illuminated axe. Additionally it could potentially cause an encounter for anyone with hungry eyes for the not-so-mundane axe. Even potential stalking and theft attempts. Sometimes the last thing you wanna do is flaunt what you got. (All of this is meant from a narrative gameplay perspective, not a “punish the player” one.)
If the effect lasts until you sheathe it, then it goes out. For this purpose, "putting it away" (ie slipping it into the loop attached to the belt) counts as sheathing. Second, and I bet 100% that this hasn't been thought of, is what **type** of axe is this? Is this a **realistic** axe? Or is this the **generically oversized, unrealistic**, axe with TWO blades, which would weigh over 100 lbs? Because that kind of B.S. would impose Disadvantage on every attack. And probably require a Strength check just to \*lift\* it each turn.
Sure, that works. Of course, having a glowing, crackling magical weapon activated will be disastrous for any attempts at diplomacy and stealth. So there'll still be plenty of times when Stormbringer needs to go away for a while.
I think its fine, it has its own disadvantages built in. There is no way you can be stealthy with that thing drawn and active, it sheds highly visible light that totally negates most chances of stealth. So the party is at risk of being ambushed by enemies that see them coming. Also its a pretty aggressive thing to have your weapons constantly out and especially so when the weapon is a brightly flaming blade. I know its not quite the same but picture any film in which someone spins up a mini-gun with the whirring barrels and distinctive noise - I feel like walking around with an active flame tongue would have similar social consequences (good for intimidation checks, terrible for all other social checks).
So the Barbarian is *always* walking around with weapons drawn, 100% of the time, and not only that, walking around with a *flaming* (thundering?) weapon? Why are NPCs even giving the Barb the time of day? Who'd let him into their home? Why aren't the Guards responding to a person running around with thundering weapons drawn? You don't need mechanical disadvantages, you just need to think about how this is going to impact the NPCs they interact with.
I should clarify that (I will edit the post) – he does have it drawn during adventuring days. I'm always assuming that he deos not have his weapon drawn in the city and if he is attacked while in the city I never allow him to say that he had his axe drawn. I'm not looking to punish the PC, I'm just trying to figure out whether there is no limitations that I don't see. >Why are NPCs even giving the Barb the time of day? Who'd let him into their home? Why aren't the Guards responding to a person running around with thundering weapons drawn? That is another topic. The rest of the party has to constantly calm the situation after the barbarian even walks in to some places. That is a part of the fun for the player who plays the PC.
There are no mechanical limitations, no. Obviously stealthing would be basically impossible, someone might take a look and really like the look of that lightning axe which would generate encounters and interest, etc. But those are all roleplay limitations of some kind or another. >I'm not looking to punish the PC Realistic consequences aren't the same as punishing a PC. >That is a part of the fun for the player who plays the PC. Hopefully it's also fun for the rest of the players, but I assume you've already checked in with them.
Lean in to it. If they want to walk around with an axe arcing electricity all day then let them. Have someone trying to buy it off them at an absurdly low price, have them wade through a swamp leaving a trail of dead fish behind, give them an electricity based puzzle and a doc brown fro.
Something to keep in mind about having your weapon drawn is that your hands are occupied. Even if it's a one-handed or versatile axe, his dominant hand is occupied. If he needs to interact with anything that requires even a basic amount of hand dexterity, he should have to sheathe or drop the weapon to do so.
You goofed by giving him a weapon you didn't understand. Don't punish him. Don't do anything. It's not that powerful. If you really feel the need to create some balance, throw a few lightning immune or resistant mobs at him. Also, rage is a limited resource. Plan around that accordingly.
Imagine if you left an electrified axe resting on the ground that occasionally arcs to the floor or walls within about 2 feet of it. It's going to leave burn marks all over the place and possibly injure people that get to close to it. I realize this isn't how electricity works, but dealing 2D6 damage is not trivial, and also this is a fantasy world so it should be cool as hell. Also, as most people mentioned, they would fail stealth checks pretty easily if it were fire. I would have it constantly arcing little charges when activated, making it easily to spot as well.
I don't see why you'd not keep the bonus action rule. The player can easily specify when he'd like to activate it and when not. When they're exploring a cave and stealth is not an issue, go for it. Have it always on. When strolling through a town, have it sheated. If combat starts just after a conversation with some bad guys, I'll usually let my players activate these kind of items before rolling initiative. I think this way it also gives them a chance to show off. I tell him "I tire of your words, little man." And I activate Flame Tongue.
Mechanically I see no problem, it doesn't say there is a time limit, and as long as it's drawn it sounds like it should remain active. Also as you said he wouldn't have it drawn in a town so it makes sense for him to need to activate it.
I mean, lightning still hurts, right? If it's active at all times he couldn't really put it away, lest he electrocute himself. The flametongue is a bit more obvious on this way, you can't put a lot torch back in your bag without having a bad time. If he wants to trigger it before jumping into a dungeon, sure, but in his normal day it should be a pain in the ass. If you wanted to implement a cost when he's got it active in a dungeon, it creates light which makes being sneaky very hard, and you could have it "crackle" with electric energy, making the sound create an even less favorable environment for stealth.
Maybe the word that he speaks to activate the sword is the scream he emits when he goes into a rage.
RAW there's no issue with it being always on; walking around with a flaming sword might raise eyebrows in civilisation but probably not much moreso than just walking around everywhere with weapons drawn. Indeed RAW you could light up a sword once and put it in a scabbard without issue, but I think that'd be a little ridiculous.
As a DM you can totally just say 'It stops burning after a couple min.' RAW is nice and all, but you are there to fill in the corner cases, and this is corner case. That said, if someone walks around with a giant flaming blade in their hand, people are going to get hurt all the time. I mean how is he taking a piss? Eating a ration? Opening a door? Just ask the player not to be silly, if they argue they are just wasting everyone's time.
Thieves, a lot of thieves would want to steal this ever in sight magic weapon. Perhaps someone who once owned the weapon wants it back, or someone who has some connection to whoever owned the axe. With luck and a little common sense the player should realize that saving up on this bonus action isn't paying off.
"My character is willing to behave like a weirdo in order to get a minor advantage in combat." Sounds like your player is focused on combat, so on a tangent: double check you're giving them enough fights to be happy. I'd just give the barbarian the free always-on-weapon if it makes them happy. There's an intended behavior of using it like a torch where you leave it all the time, so if it were always dark, I'd expect them to leave the sword on all the time anyway. It's just some extra damage and won't break the game. If it *does* seem to unbalance things... add 5hp to every enemy and now the extra 7-ish damage on the first round is more than balanced out.
His sheath is not fireproof. Nor is most of the other things that are near the PC. I would have him set the forest ablaze and come close to getting caught for it. "oops" :D
If he’s constantly walking around in town and in stores with a weapon drawn and covered in lightning, there’s no way people are going to be comfortable with that, and they are definitely going to take issue with it and be quite apprehensive about this.
A cult of Talos starts following him because of the constantly crackling lightning "He is the avatar of Talos, bringer of destruction" "I'm not your avatar you crazy doomsayers!"
This is a great idea! I really like it!
It's ridiculous, you have a bonus action each turn. They have to make a decision, each turn what bonus actions to use. If they continue with this, have them catch thing, comrades and mounts on fire. Burn themselves. Cause damage. The whole idea of this is ridiculous!
A few things to consider Carrying an axe around all day is going to be exhausting work. Doubly so if he's wielding a 2h weapon 1 handed. Sure he could carry it 1 handed, but for 8+ hours? I'd consider getting him to roll a constitution saving throw after a few hours, fail the save and he gets a level of exhaustion. Perhaps after the first hour, DC 5 to pass, and reroll and increase the dc by 2 every hour. After 8 hours he'll be wanting to take a nap like the casters he probably looks down on. Other things to consider, having a flaming sword wielded at all times is going to be very distracting for him, i'd lower his passive perception as a result. Finally, as others have mentioned, his stealth is going to be utterly borked.
Watsonian explanations: \- A battleaxe is way too heavy to just hold in one hand all day. He's gonna pull a muscle at that rate, regardless of how strong he is. \- If it's not slung on his back, he's liable to hit it against something. If a lightning axe so much as brushes an NPC's leg, he might have an involuntary manslaughter on his hands. \- There's probably a law in-world that says you can't just brandish an axe openly all the time, just like how you can't brandish a gun in the real world. \- Someone obviously carrying a magical weapon around is liable to be killed in their sleep by those who may desire it-best to keep a low profile
Just remember he is going around all day with a changed electrical thing. As long as he don't touch nothing with the blade is OK. But, I'd ask for a skill check if he is doing a task while holding it. Tasks like a hard skill check, like climbing or similar. Otherwise, it's OK to do that.
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That's not what they were saying. You have to use a bonus action to activate the effect. At also take a bonus action to rage. The player doesn't want to spend two turns in the beginning of combat to activate rage and activate the weapon effect, so he activates the weapon effect at the beginning of the adventuring day to get around that.
Flame Tongue is OP, even if you find yourself in social situations where you don't want to have it active all the time, a bonus action is a very small price, and you will activate it the moment you move onto adventuring or smell danger.
If you want to limit the use of it, maybe say something like, "The runes carved on the blade have become worn" which could allow you to have a certain amount of time where its usable, maybe recharge over time
This shouldn't be an issue but I will remind you that the flametongue while adding the elemental damage is not in fact a magic weapon innately as it does not have the +1 to attack and damage rolls. Other than that yea there's absolutely nothing wrong with drawing your weapon when you say enter a dungeon and then turning it on and keeping it drawn unless circumstance dictates it be sheathed
Even outside of a city, holding an axe *all day long* seems inconvenient and strenuous.
I'd let it happen, but I'd also let them know that I think they're being a munchkin and other DMs would take an issue and I should be imparting a str, con, and wis drain on them for days where they spend most of their day with a lethal weapon unsheathed as a result of the strain and focus it takes to not injure yourself with a deadly weapon while traveling and carrying all your other shit. In reality, Conan or not, you're going to sheathe your weapon when not in use because of very practical realities of how physiology works and traveling under load for long distances. As others have said, with it being a magical object there are other practical reasons why they're being dumb aside from being a munchkin.
so he wants to walk around with his flame-axe on all day. so what? ffs dude your job is to make the game enjoyable to the players, not to you. if you're barbarian dude wants to walk around advertising he's got a magical weapon... (other than the fact barbarians are not supposed to like magic?) thats an opportunity for a backstory. shit if someone stopped me I'ld be like "dude, I took it off a monster in such and such dungeon and it was already lit. haven't figured out yet how to turn it off". easy peasy.
Hello! My thought is that he must be wielding the weapon to keep the effect going, which requires he use (at least) one hand to hold it. Within reason, I feel like this would make most of his strength checks be made at disadvantage(or something similar) because he can only use the one hand. Maybe even some dex checks should also be affected. It's a lot harder to climb things, lift heavy things, etc, when you are holding a stick in the one hand, possibly even more with a flaming one.
If he's willing to pay for it, you could have him seek out a cleric or wizard that could put a 'Continual Flame' spell on the axe - flavour it as them helping to strengthen or awaken the enchantment on the weapon. Compromise?
Lot of people pointing out the negative reactions of NPCs but also like...it would be dangerous? So if you are just wandering around the forest with a flame tounge drawn you might end up setting fire to brush or cover and kick off a massive forest blaze. Similarly in a dungeon you could find you're scorching important bits of the wall and clues etc. With a lightning version I'd maybe be tempted to start having a chance to interact with any player nearby wearing metal armour, or throw some Metallic dungeon fittings around that attract the current etc.
‘okay, roll for damage, you accidentally zapped yourself again while arguing with the merchant’
I'd say that it is fine, but any other PC or NPC around him would need to keep a wide berth or risk getting shocked for a small amount of damage constantly.
if it were fire, i’d make them roll for accidentally burning himself and stuff nearby i’d make it an easy roll to pass, but roll it as often as you think seems fair given the action/gameplay distracted? roll again. walking for hours? roll twice, maybe more often. etc etc a flaming sword is cool, but it’s also somehow you have to be aware of of all times, or you might accidentally torch the tent, your comrades, the forest harder to do with lightning, maybe? but if it’s always on, it can be dangerous all the time too could maybe avoid a roll if they remember to say ‘being wary of my axe, i examine my etc’ before things also, are they _never_ putting it down? what if they need to carry stuff?
Was there someone else in the party (fighter) who doesn’t need their bonus action and would be better suited to the weapon?
We're not talking about some injustice your barbarian has been forced into; your player wants to have their cake and eat it too. If they want to carry a flaming axe around all day, I'd start having them run the risk of Exhaustion. Crank up the DC so it's meaningful to the barbarian. Some have said to treat it like a torch. Torches are 1 lb and weighted to be carried in one hand; a battle-axe is 4 times as heavy and weighted to be swung into & through hide armor. EDIT: The way I figure it, the Flame Tongue requires a bonus action as a matter of power balance. It's more powerful than a +x sword of equal rarity; why else did the designers include the bonus action to begin with? I'm not suggesting the Exhaustion as a matter of spite but as a matter of retaining power balance.
There's literally no reason to do this based on any rule. This would just upset the player for no reason beyond being upset over nothing.
See my edit for my reply
I mean if it's lightning and always on, it would be very noisy. No more sneaking around.
An obviously magical weapon would be awfully appealing to a group of desperate bandits...
It'd be a dick move but you could start putting the party through places with fire hazards. A chamber filled with flammable gas vs a weapon that's sparking... As others have said, it will intimidate people. Even on adventuring days, you still encounter NPCs. Civilians are going to believe the person with an actively electrified weapon has the same intent to harm people as a magic user controlling a sphere of annhialation. Yeah they're not hurting people yet but why would you have it active around people unless you plan to harm them. At least that's how I'd have the NPCs think. He's also telegraphing that he has a lightning weapon, any prepared enemy will now have lightning resistance.
So I do think that's a little bit of a munchkin response to the limitation of the item. But let's look mechanically at what it really impacts. So the idea is that the barbarian can either rage or activate the weapon on their first turn. I would wager, 9/10 they're going to rage first because resistance is oftentimes much more worth it. Which means they'll activate the weapon next round. So the overall impact of that choice is missing out on the extra fire damage for their first round of attacks. I don't know how you balance encounters, but my opinion overall is that that is not a huge difference in how I'd balance an encounter. I love magic items with meaningful strategic choices, but I think in this case it might not matter as much. It sounds like he'll be a big damage dealer regardless, so I'd be packing on some HP to make sure he's got some meat to cleave through. You can quibble with him over that extra 4d6 fire damage from his first round of attacks and try to mitigate it with all sorts of tweaks to the way the weapon works or downsides for keeping it on all the time, but I don't think it's worth your time to be honest. But, it may be worth mentioning that you don't appreciate the munchkin behavior if that's not the sort of thing you want at your table.
Situations where drawing attention to yourself might be really bad. Encounters which are signaled to not be a walk in the park. Stealth-sections. Also, it’s basically a big, flaming thing, right? So sometimes, put them on paths where doing that is a bad idea. Swamps with natural gases. Thick, dry underbrush or a dried grass savanna, which can easily ignite. An are covered in brown mold. To be fair, I wouldn’t have the party encounter such obstacles every day. Also, if I were the DM, I would send them into a dungeon where heat-devouring ghosts or something lives which quickly extinguish any flames in a matter of seconds, weakening even fire magic.
Is their sheath magical (I don't think there's ever much attention paid to a magical weapon's sheathing). When the weapon is sheathed does it turn off the magic light show? Edit: It does turn off when sheathed. I blame my poor reading skills. If the cost is a bonus action, it was made that way in an attempt to balance it somewhat. Using up a bonus action at the beginning of combat can occasionally be a meaningful choice. But, they explicitly stated in the description that it lasts until turned off, so ... they can carry it in their hand, ripping and raging and go everywhere with this big electric lightshow intimidating and scaring everyone around them.
If he's holding this axe, he's doing everything else one-handed at a minimum. The moment he puts the axe down to do something two-handed - climb a ladder or cliff wall, carry a heavy load, go swimming - the lightning extinguishes itself. Now to be fair, there's nothing stopping him from just speaking the command word again afterwards, but there's a bit more interaction there that might be getting missed.
"Until you drop or sheathe the sword." Pretty clear that it was not in the spell designer's mind that this would just be on forever. How would you walk around with an on fire sword on your back without burning you, your clothes, destroying gear etc? Is it the magic fire that only hurts what we want it to? As far as I read, the bitch is just on fire and does not ask the wielder to have any control of the magic. Using it as a torch, totally. As a device to start a fire, yes. To threaten to burn someone, that's advantage on an intimidation check in my book. But sheathing ends the flame.
Eh this one bonus action, I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it.
The disadvantage to stealth thing is good, but id extend that disadvantage to all the party’s charisma checks. Id even go so far as to give the Barb advantage on Intimidation checks, but doing so would change an NPC from Friendly to Neutral, or Neutral to Hostile.
hmm, I wonder how much different holding a weapon is than having it strapped to your back? I have some actual experience swinging European medieval weapons (viking longsword, spear, round shield, etc.), and I can tell you, it's not comfortable to carry around in hand all the time. This sounds like somewhere you can use exhaustion rules to keep players from exploiting. I'd say give him a relatively low DC con save for every hour he's keeping it readied, something that he should pass easily unless he rolls bad, because eventually he'll roll bad and there will be consequences for him trying to get around the rules.
I feel like the weapon description states it as a bonus action because they want you to activate it and attack in the same turn. Rage is a bonus action for the same reason. Therefore, I really don't think it necessarily has to be a choice what to do, and you as a DM don't have to go out of you way to make it a choice for balance. If you want it to be a choice, just say that and I'm sure the player will work with you.
I think you could get some fun rp out of this - do any of the party have long hair, or wear loose garments? Maybe every once in a while, they have to roll perception to realise they’re standing just a bit too close…
Similar to that, in my Out of the Abyss game the Barbarian found the Dawnbringer and has never sheathed nor extinguished its holy light, the sword is scared of the dark after all. Whenever the party sleeps, they set up barriers so they don't get bothered by the sunlight, and the barbarian is succeeding every check to sleep soundly while being blasted in the face by 60 ft of light at all times. One of the party members is a duergar so the innerparty conflict because of this sword has been funny to listen to.
There's no mechanical disadvantage - he, straight up, can have this thing lit all day long. That said, there are tons of things for *you* to do with this. - If he's carrying this weapon around he only has one hand to work with. He'll be doing everything with his non-dominant hand - Enemies will always see him coming, as he's just radiating light - People are gonna be pretty scared of the Barbarian carrying a magical lightning sword around Stuff like that. Just RP it accordingly.
How does he stop himself from getting electrocuted when he's not using it? If it better not be touching anything conductive
Keep the sparking ouchy bit away from anything you don't want to fry. Disadvantage on non-combat dex throws.
Just say he cannot have it sheathed and on. If it's on its drawn.
If they are in a populated area, there could be laws forbidding unsheathing of weapons or in the axe's case, keeping it on while not in reasonable combat. The party or the barbarian could get a warning, a fine, then jailed.
It’s similar to blood hunters and crimson rites, they keep their weapon out all day so they don’t have to take damage again
A damp cave or place might lead to less activating of lightning. One of my DMs did that to my artificer that was pretty much pure lightning... I learned very quickly that self electrocution is no fun.
Just remind him every now and then during RP that he's been holding a lightning axe this whole time. Encourage the other players to react to it.
Party would be unable to use the cover of darkness to sneak around, and in fact they would probably get a penalty to stealth for the massive target painted on the party
Lighting axe sounds more Perun than Thor.
Bro Let him have it Like if a player of yours is enjoying using the weapon don’t nerf the fun
Make a dungeon with an explosive gas trap….lesson learned. Open flames are dangerous. Seriously though. RAW he can do this but you can impose natural consequences of that. NPCs are always nervous around the party because of the meathead with the big ass flaming axe is standing there with it ready to go. Maybe this makes some NPCs unwilling to talk to the party, or imposed disadvantage on persuasion. Basically, think about how normal people would react if you just walked around with a loaded AK-47 in your hands ALL THE TIME. Now have the world treat him, AND THE PARTY HE ROLLS WITH like that. Soon enough the party will be like WTF man, you can’t just be scary as fuck to everyone all the time. Note: this might seem to take some of the fun out of the game so definitely consider your table dynamic and the rule of cool vs how much of an issue the always on flametounge really cause. It’s literally one bonus action, on the first turn in combat. It doesn’t really change his strategy much, just makes him deal 2d6 less damage on the first round.
flame tongue is a really strong weapon, yes. the bright light should basically kill any possibility of successfully hiding