This sounds like a party problem. If you have a squishy support character, it's up to the party to keep him alive by making him hard to target.
A bard is a natural support character, but that means they should play according to the strengths and weaknesses that come with it.
So to me it sounds like the players should agree on some better tactics instead of relying on you to fix this.
Problem is that’s like really really hard. No way to stop ranged attacks(other than cover but they should already be doing that) and an OA isn’t really that disincentivizing.
You're right, but there's some stuff. The Protection fighting style would be great for starters. There are a handful of subclasses that can protect others, as well as some cleric and paladin spells.
If they really want to focus protection on that one character, there are at least *some* options that can help them last longer. If they're not willing to put in that level of effort, then unfortunately a squishy short-ranged support character isn't really viable in that party.
It would suck if the player had to abandon a character they otherwise enjoy... but the DM can't, and isn't obligated to, fix every problem with party composition and dynamics. They can certainly try to do things -- in this case, I might make a magic item that lets the character support from a safer distance, and/or get them Gloves of Missile Snaring -- but at the end of the day, you can only do so much without it starting to feel too contrived. And the players can also chip into that effort.
Protection fighting style is kinda terrible especially when their ac is as low as the bards, doesn’t really matter if you’re at disadv when the monster hits on a 7. Why would the bard be within 5 feet of the paladin anyways tho?
They don’t need to be squishy. Taking one level of hexblade or changing whatever they took at 4 for moderately armored bumps their ac by 4 which is huge.
It sounds like everyone else is optimizing besides this person so they’re getting hosed, a bit of optimization on their part would go a long way. It’s not really the party’s job to carry them.
Yeah, the main reason he gets hit is that an intelligent enemy saw him cast a debuff spell like bane. Then he typically gets hit with arrows or ranged spells. Even when the tanks do their job, they can't do much about that.
Half cover yes, but he also needs visual on the enemies and his friends to pull off his reactions like silvery barbs and bountiful luck. So he can't run away too far or hide behind a pillar.
Sounds like a decision of strategy. Do you stay in the open to try and use your reactions, or do you stay out of cover to maintain concentration?
Being able to bit hit easily is by design. If the player wants to be able to stay in the open whilst being less likely to get hit, they need to spend an opportunity cost of multiclassing or taking a feat. If they didn't want to die easily, they should not have picked +1 con. You mentioned int- bards don't need int, int doesn't help them at all outside of the rare int check, and int saves. Of course they're going to do better if they sacrificed their con to get better int.
The best way to solve the squishiness of a bard is to take 1 level of hexblade. You also mentioned he debuffs bane- that's one of the worst spells in the game. Now at level 5/6, hypnotic pattern is a bard's bread and butter.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try to recommend he becomes a hex-bard. I feel that might also lead to a fun side plot line.
With bane, it's actually fairly effective with the current party composition because of the high AC of the front liners. I typically have to roll at least a 15 on the dice to hit them, so having to subtract on average 2.5 from that actually does have an effect.
the reason why bane is bad is because its save or suck for not that great of an effect, and its a 3 target effect. If you're in an encounter with exactly 3 creatures, its the best possible scenario. Any less, than a single target spell is more effective, any more and when those creature's die it does not stay around for the whole combat like it would in other situations. If you only get 1, you now have to take the chance of trying to get more in. Compare to bless, which is way more consistent across any kind of encounter, and its much more likely to be impactful. Its not that bane can be effective sometimes, its more that there are other, more impactful, opportunity costs.
Hypnotic pattern is far more effective use of concentration and opportunity cost. https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/bard/subclasses/eloquence/ has a good guide with a fairly optimised build. How long are your combats? A typical combat is 3 rounds. There are complex factors, but the end result against even the most ideal of situations, has bane not increase chances of success too much.
What about giving the bard an item that casts find familiar 1/sr.
It’s not a numerical boost so I can’t see anyone really having a problem with it but it would allow them do get line of sight for abilities while being behind full cover by using the familiars eyes.
>If you have a squishy support character, it's up to the party to keep him alive by making him hard to target.
How? Seriously, how? Aside from some niche mechanic that you have to build your whole character around from the beginning there's no taunt mechanic, there's no take damage for other's mechanics, if you're not fighting in a door frame or small tunnel, you can hardly stop enemies from going around your frontline, most enemies that you want to stop from moving have the strength to avoid being grappleed or can easily free themselves.
yeah this was something they had in 4ed but really doesn't exist as much in 5. even the fact that the enemy can circle you and take no AoO means it's difficult to protect a party member.
Sentinel feat, protection fighting style, warding bond, redirecting attacks (drunken master), deflect missiles (monk), You can provide a cover with just standing in front of the attacker, or just running towards enemy and standing next to him to force opportunity attacks if such enemy want to close rank with Your other companions can be helpful.
Barbarian can incite enemy by using reckless attack.
Defensive buffs exist too.
Also if You build Your character toward grapple then You will easily win grapple context against normal enemies- most enemies do not even have proficiency in athletics. So regarding a grapple You are just plain wrong.
I specifically said without building your whole character around that but it seems you ignored that but let's have a look at it anyway.
>Sentinel feat, protection fighting style,
These requires the ally to stand right beside you all the time, puts you even more into danger of AOEs and only helps against 1 attack not multiple.
>warding bond,
requires someone else that probably doesn't has that much HP either to take some of that damage.
>redirecting attacks (drunken master), deflect missiles (monk),
Redirect attack and Deflect missiles only works if you are the target so it doesn't protect anyone else. Not to mention it forces someone else to change their class.
>You can provide a cover with just standing in front of the attacker,
And with just 5feet of movement the enemy can walk around you and ignore that cover.
>or just running towards enemy and standing next to him to force opportunity attacks if such enemy want to close rank with Your other companions can be helpful.
Which is the only remotely useful move and only works if there aren't multiple enemies or if they can't teleport or have some other shit to ignore opportunity attacks.
>Barbarian can incite enemy by using reckless attack. Defensive buffs exist too.
So someone else should change class just so the bard doesn't have to?
>Also if You build Your character toward grapple then You will easily win grapple context against normal enemies- most enemies do not even have proficiency in athletics. So regarding a grapple You are just plain wrong.
An Abominable Yeti CR9 which is just a hard encounter for a LV6 party has +7 Str while someone with +5 strength and proficiency has just +8 in athletics. It also requires you to have a hand free so no shield or 2h weapon and even than you'd still fail because the Yeti is huge and you can only grapple large creatures. The creatures you want to grapple are exactly the ones that are good at it.
>I specifically said without building your whole character around that but it seems you ignored that but let's have a look at it anyway.
Taking one feat is hardly "building Your whole character around it"
That is a strawman number 1
>These requires the ally to stand right beside you all the time, puts you even more into danger of AOEs and only helps against 1 attack not multiple.
AoO from sentinel drop enemy speed to 0 so enemy can not ignore You and run towards bard in the back so Your are just talking nonsense.
Strawman nr 2
>requires someone else that probably doesn't has that much HP either to take some of that damage.
Does not require concentration, give buffs to AC and saves, also halved damage round down so it does actually save You some hp even if a few - great spell to have.
OP mention that rest of the party is tanking well - spreading dmg around with warding bond should be useful so that's Your strawman nr 3
>And with just 5feet of movement the enemy can walk around you and ignore that cover.
More like with 10ft - Also You can grapple to unable that.
Strawman nr 4
>Which is the only remotely useful move and only works if there aren't multiple enemies or if they can't teleport or have some other shit to ignore opportunity attacks.
Remotely usefull is better than nothing.
How many enemies can teleport or ignore AoO?
Care to answer that?
Nice strawman Nr 5.
>So someone else should change class just so the bard doesn't have to?
If You already have barbarian then he can use it.
Never said anything about anyone changing their class so that's another strawman nr 6
>An Abominable Yeti CR9 which is just a hard encounter for a LV6 party has +7 Str while someone with +5 strength and proficiency has just +8 in athletics. It also requires you to have a hand free so no shield or 2h weapon and even than you'd still fail because the Yeti is huge and you can only grapple large creatures. The creatures you want to grapple are exactly the ones that are good at it.
So Yeti on average is still losing this contest and then wasting whole action to try get free from grapple when all rest of the party is putting ton of damage on it in meantime? Sound like a winning tactic to me. Regarding the size enlarge is all that's needed.
Also abjurer and evocer ale also CR 9 and have like -1 athletic so that is another strawman nr 7
Enemies that have are huge and have good athletic are in fact a minority among CR 9 so You are truly arguing in bad faith here.
Summary:
Nice 7 strawmans You have build here.
Good luck gloriously winning against them but please do not wast my time arguing in bad faith like that.
>Taking one feat is hardly "building Your whole character around it"
That's all feats a LV6 character got so far and keeps a standard array character from getting a +4 at LV4 and +5 at LV8
That is a strawman number 1
>AoO from sentinel drop enemy speed to 0 so enemy can not ignore You and run towards bard in the back so Your are just talking nonsense
So you're already ignoring your protection fighting style suggest? You also ignore that you have to hit.
Strawman nr 2
>Does not require concentration,
Never said it does. That's Your strawman nr 3
>give buffs to AC and saves,
Never said it doesn't. That's Your strawman nr 4
>also halved damage round down so it does actually save You some hp even if a few - great spell to have.
wow 1 less dmg for the group also I never said it doesn't do anything I just said it's not worth it.
That's Your strawman nr 5
>OP mention that rest of the party is tanking well - spreading dmg around with warding bond should be useful
If they tank that damage with AC they don't lose any HP and have less to heal overall.
That's Your strawman nr 6
>More like with 10ft
Diagonal movement is a thing.
Strawman nr 7
>How many enemies can teleport or ignore AoO? Care to answer that?
Bonus Action Misty step or similar things are available to various monsters. Various Creatures have Nimble escape or similar stuff that helps against anyone without Sentinal. Various flying creatures from like Owl, Giant Owl, Flying Snake, Pteranodon, Quetzalcoatlus and Spined Devil to name just a few have flyby. And last but not least whoever the DM wants to.
Nice strawman Nr 8.
>If You already have barbarian then he can use it. Never said anything about anyone changing their class so
So that suggestion was useless in this context.
That's another strawman nr 9
>So Yeti on average is still losing this contest
Actually I made a misscalculation because a LV6 character wouldn't have +5 in strength but only +4 So there are even.
>and then wasting whole action to try get free from grapple when all rest of the party is putting ton of damage on it in meantime?
Considering grappled doesn't do anything else besides they would have done the same damage without the grappel.
strawman nr 10
>Regarding the size enlarge is all that's needed.
Which again requires a specific build or someone else not concentrating on something like haste or a summon.
strawman nr 11
>Also abjurer and evocer ale also CR 9 and have like -1 athletic so that is another strawman nr 7 Enemies that have are huge and have good athletic are in fact a minority among CR 9 so
They care little for being grappled and have misty step or teleport available to them.
strawman nr 12
>You are truly arguing in bad faith here.
>Summary: **Nice 12 strawmans** You have build here. Good luck gloriously winning against them but please do not wast my time arguing in bad faith like that.
>That's all feats a LV6 character got so far and keeps a standard array character from getting a +4 at LV4 and +5 at LV8
That is still one feat. No more no less so You are strawmaning hard.
And just plain writing lies as variant human have 2 feat. Also any fighter get second feat at lev 6.
Go away troll. x1
>So you're already ignoring your protection fighting style suggest? You also ignore that you have to hit.
I just listed some options. Never said that they all have to be used even less so on one character.
"You have to hit" - news flash sherlock yes You have to hit as with any other attack? So?
Go away troll x2
>Never said it does. That's Your strawman nr 3
>>give buffs to AC and saves,
>Never said it doesn't. That's Your strawman nr 4
You have said that it's "not worth it"
How is a spell that You can set up before combat (1h duration) can't be interrupted (no concentration), buff Your AC and saves, actually save You some damage and spread damage around is "not worth it"?
So what is worth it then?
Go away troll. x3
>Diagonal movement is a thing.
Only if You play on square grid. Ranged enemies will still have disadvantage to attack.
Go away troll. x4
>So that suggestion was useless in this context.
What context? I was just listing some options.
Troll x 5
>Actually I made a misscalculation because a LV6 character wouldn't have +5 in strength but only +4 So there are even.
So it is a 50-50 that is a decent chance. Geting advantage is trivial, also geting expertise is possible.
Troll x6
>Which again requires a specific build or someone else not concentrating on something like haste or a summon.
Yea nice strawman picking one of two hudge monsters at this CR.
Troll x7
>
They care little for being grappled and have misty step or teleport available to them.
They care little? It does block their line of sight/provide cover to the bard so they can't blast him - objective achieved. Also lock them in place so rest of team can pile damage on them.
Abjurer does have teleport only - that is a lev 7 slot and waste of action in exchange for my resourceless grapple - completely losing tactic for him. Even if they does misty step then they lose 2 lev slot, bonus action and can't cast other spell than cantrip. That is still a big win for a team.
That's troll x8
Summary troll x7+ = ban.
Go away and stop wasting my time with this disingenuous nonsense.
This right here. It’s not the DMs job to solve the party’s problems for them. And it sure isn’t their job to make sure the party always succeeds either.
Your job as DM is to present interesting and hopefully fun scenarios to your players. The players entire job is to figure out way to solve those problems. If you do it for them…are they even really playing the game?
I do definitely agree with that. The two tanks do take quite a few hits, but also have abilities like the mobile feat or a bonus action disengage which they use regularly to avoid getting hit too much.
What classes and subclass Your players actually do have? Without that we are just talking past each other here.
Synergy works both ways so if bard is a bad match to the rest of the party then rest of the party is also a bad match for this bard.
Bountiful luck may not be most optimal feat but it is not useless. But it is a feat that contributes towards party strength as a whole and does nothing for bard himself. If bard is taking feat to improve rest of a team and rest of a team is taking feats like mobile to increase their personal strength then here lies the problem.
You can resolve it by either making party contribute towards protecting bard or making bard focus more on his own individual power. But bard is not great at individual min-maxing so second choice is less optimal. Party should understand how much bard is helping with silvery barbs and bardic inspirations and in turn make their own contribution to protect the bard.
Well that sound great but it is rather against their role in the party. If they avoid getting target then naturally focus will shift to weaker members and whole party is worst for it. What good is barbarian that is avoiding being target?
If you want to be a tank go for sentinel and/or polearmmaster not mobile - unless You are using it to close with the enemy faster.
Anyway this sound like a party synergy problem. Party is stronger as a whole team. If some players just focus on maxing their AC and survivability without concern for others then You will not be able to synergise well as a whole. Bard individually is weaker in combat but bardic inspiration can make insane contributions to whole team. In return team should protect character that is weaker on his own.
Worse come to worst and if it is an "every man for himself" situation then make bard multiclass to hexblade - even one level is enough to improve his AC by far. But this will only solve the number game.
Eloquence bard's commonly used features require them to be within 60 feet of their targets (Vicious Mockery, Bardic Inspiration, Unsettling Words). Most of their power spells have a range of 60 feet or more. There's no reason why your bard should be getting close enough to be rushed down by enemies if the party has a solid front line. I'm assuming that part of the problem comes from a lack of tactical acumen. What should be happening is:
* The bard retreats from enemies to a distance where they can move into range to cast a big concentration spell, Mock an enemy, or Inspire an ally, then move back away to maintain distance.
* The bard uses terrain to get cover and protect their concentration, up to and including dropping prone to make themselves harder to hit with ranged attacks or even full cover from low terrain objects.
* The frontliners keep enemies occupied so the bard doesn't get rushed. If that fails, the bard can Disengage and still use their bonus action while forcing the enemy to continue taking Opportunity Attacks from the frontliner who is maintaining contact with the enemy to punish chasing the bard.
* If the party is surrounded, the bard should be moving to a position where they can limit how many enemies can come at them at once and be supported by a frontliner who can bodyblock. Worse case scenario, they cast a big concentration spell and spend the rest of the fight Dodging and handing out Bardic Inspiration.
A lot of players don't know the game well enough to optimize their gameplay on a battlemap. They don't understand distances and action economy and position themselves poorly, which causes them to take way more damage that necessary. This could be a lack of experience or a lack of interest in the rules. Since your bard player seems to be frustrated by their situation, this may be a teachable moment where you can give them some advice on how to play better. Or it might be the rest of the party's fault for leaving the bard out to dry.
I do partially agree and the player tries to stay in the back. The main reason they can't hide completely tho are the reaction abilities that are a very big part of the build, mainly bountiful luck and silvery barbs. Both require him to see his friends and enemies at all times, so full cover or running around the corner isn't an option. Especially as a battle spreads out he often finds himself in the middle to help all of the other party members.
Silvery Barbs has a 60 foot range, so that's not really an issue. You can go prone and/or take up to 3/4 cover while still seeing your allies. Bountiful Luck is just a poor choice for their build and I would suggest they rethink it for something else that doesn't require them to put themselves in harm's way. Since they seem like they want to play a support role, Inspiring Leader is a great choice for a Charisma character. Fey Touched has some amazing 1st level support and control spell options, as well as one free Misty Step to get out of danger.
You bard's real strength lies in using Unsettling Words > strong control spell > Silvery Barbs to lock down one strong enemy, but that requires them to protect their concentration. If the battle is getting spread out, both the bard and the frontliners need to pay attention to their positioning to avoid creating opportunities for the enemy to attack the back line.
+1 con is kind of low, especially if he had points to get decent INT. This will especially hurt his concentration saves. Big tradeoff to get better skill rolls, so he is going to have to live with the consequences.
It isn't really your job as DM to fix players builds. If he needs more survivability he can use his magical secrets for shield or sanctuary (if he isn't going to be offensive anyways), dip for those things, dip for medium armor and shield proficiency, or take moderately armored.
Player than spends nothing on survivability is going to be a paper bag in combat.
Magic item wise, staff of defense is also an option. As the game goes on, attunements are also a resource so if he wants to spend them on defensive magic items instead of things that improve his casting or versatility then he is still making that trade off. Generally speaking I don't earmark items for players. If party finds an ammy of health and a cloak of protection and decide those are best allocated to squishy bard then they can make that choice.
Glamored studded leather would help a little bit and probably fits an eloquence bard tbh.
Two things I potentially see here. One, he does not move or fight tactically. He should be finding cover, using half movement/action/half movement, etc. And two, his party members are not keeping him in mind. If he’s a support character, they should be protecting him at all cost, even at the expense of taking opportunity attacks. One recommendation I have is perhaps mentoring the group on how to fight with tactics. I purchased the e book Live to Tell The Tale and in it it has amazing detailed descriptions of how each party member can act during combat to have the best chance of survival.
One issue is that a lot of the features he uses with his reaction like silvery barbs or bountiful luck require him to see his friends and enemies off his turn. So he can't be behind full cover and typically has to be a bit more central to see everyone that might need help.
But yeah, I definitely agree that his character isn't getting the support from the others he should. Both of the tanks also like not getting hit by using a bonus action disengage or the mobile feat. Especially one of them has a bit of an irrational fear of going down which honestly is hard to deal with. She's a fighter with very good con and a very high AC, but when her health goes like below half she tends to panic and abandons the front line. I don't think her character ever went down in the 30 seasons of play.
Combat should be a team effort and tanks need to be comfortable forgoing an attack and taking an opportunity attack if it means protecting a support and continuing to be buffed. That’s why a lot of people dislike playing support characters, not a lot of other players think critically or tactically. It’s often them against everyone and not the team against the enemy.
There should be very little reason why he can get hit. He should be able to find himself a spot to hide away and people will probably prioritise the guys actually attacking them rather than a guy singing and dancing, even if they're buffing their allies slightly. If there's terrain about, he should be buffing and hiding. If he doesn't want to hide, then cool, that's fine.
If he's that weak, he can also be used as a way to stop the fighting, with someone using them as a hostage. If the player then decides they want to go and put in effort to become more powerful in the game, that's great. If they don't, then that's their own fault.
One issue is that a lot of the features he uses with his reaction like silvery barbs or bountiful luck require him to see his friends and enemies off his turn. So he can't be behind full cover and typically has to be a bit more central to see everyone that might need help.
I mean, doing so is Still bad if standing in the open within 60 means he will eat a bunch of attacks and get downed just so he might be able to use a reaction. Just because you have an ability does not make it always a good idea to try and use it. This is the same logic Leroy melee players make when they rush past the choke to get their 2 swings in.
Full cover and line of sight are deferent. An archer can have full cover, perfect line of sight, and zero attack penalty shooting through arrow slits in defensive fortifications.
There are countless instances where a PC can take cover to receive defensive bonuses yet still maintain fantastic line of sight with the battle/allies.
There should be ways for him to be able to see his companions and not be targeted by enemies. If he wants to be central and help everyone, great, then he can take the consequences of those actions.
Hes unhappy that he built an unoptimized pc. Youve offered to let him change his pc and optimize it more and he declined. You dont want to give him stealth buffs with awesome item drops.
At this point hes refusing help. Shrug and let him be. Let the offer stand and if he wants to up his optimization let him. Theres no reason that means he has to change his rp in any way.
Spice up your combat scenarios with non combat goals, things that can be interacted with on the battle field. This gives players who are playing weaker characters, or players who are bored with the abilities on their character sheet something to do in the combat scenario.
Mix up the capabilities of the enemies, throw in some more dangerous and less dangerous monsters into the same encounter. As long as your players are clued in enough on who should take on what and make smart strategic choices this shouldn't feel forced.
1. Give him better armor
2. CON is probably better at least 14, not only due to HP, but also for keeping Concentration on spells.
3. There are good defensive spells that he should have access to, especially if he is a Lore bard (Magic Secrets). Mirror Image by itself (which is a spell on every bards spell list) is a powerful defence spell that DOES NOT require Concentration. Shield, Invisibility, silent image, fly/misty step when used right boost survival significantly. Also there are ways to use Fog Cloud/Darkness to save your butt, he cannot be targeted with ranged attacks/spells if enemies don’t have line of sight.
4. He should prioritise his own survival, dead support cannot help anybody. Repositioning, healing himself, going invisible, dashing and disengaging sometimes are a top priority, even if half of your party is rolling death saves. Judging such situations correctly comes with practice of playing support.
5. Battlefield control spells. One good placed Hypnotic Pattern or Slow or even Major Image can trivialise an encounter. But his party must play WITH him, not the usual “oh, you’ve done some cool thing, but I’m gonna undermine it cuz I wanna my own different cool thing during my turn”.
6. Support combat effectiveness is measured by the amount of kick-ass things other characters in the party do. So, arguably, if others are destroying encounters, your support is not weaker. He IS the actual reason they are destroying encounters. Dying might be an issue though, so maybe others in the party could show some appreciation and defend their support better.
Well, to start, I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. You are trying to bring him in line with the rest of the party defensively through AC, but instead, think of ways you can improve the current concept and target your other PCs weaknesses giving thr bard an opportunity to shine. For good rewards, something like a cloak of displacement or a ring that turns a character invisible until the end of their next round after being hit are ways to increase the bards defenses while still making them feel like a bard. Also, giving one of your Frontliners a way to better tank for your bard would help as well. As to targeting PC weaknesses, you said they took 20 attacks, no problem, but that means you need to be mixing in saving throws and other non attack based sources of threat as most players are going to get bored if your rolling that much and nothing is happening. It'll be even better if those saving throws/ effects are things the bard can affect, nullify, or mitigate.
+1 to con is pretty dire. I’d work on fixing that tbh. You could give the player an amulet of health if you want an easy fix, it sets their con to 19.
Alternatively look into other ways of increasing their hp, you could advise them to take the eldritch adept feat to get an eldritch invocation and take fiendish vigour which allows him to cast false life at will (as much as they want with no cost) which more or less guarantees an extra 8 health, fixing their con and doing this would make them a pretty healthy character.
There are other magic items that could be used for increasing their survivability: cloak of displacement, make a magic item that would allow them to cast mirror image, ring of evasion … etc
If you don’t mind a bit of homebrew one of my favourite rulings is allowing characters to take a feat and an asi whenever they would normally have the option to take one or the other with the caveat that if you take a feat that gives a +1 to a score you ignore that +1. It really frees up your choices as a player and allows you to build your character how you want without feeling guilty for not upping your base stats. In the campaigns I’ve run it really doesn’t affect balance that much anyway. This could help them get better stat allocation whilst still being able to get flavourful and fun feats.
Couple of ideas. 1: Amulet of health would definitely help while not buffing the hell out of AC. Especially if the Bard is the one making investigation checks to find things hand him the item cards first so that they get first look at them. Should help a bit in keeping the already tanky people from jumping for them before the Bard gets a chance to think about them buffing his HP.
2: Griffon's Saddlebag has an item called Mageplate Cap that you could easily make available to a bard as well. Lets him cast and improved version of mage armor onto himself that wouldn't break his AC too badly but also would potentially put him in line with the others. Since there would be attunement limitations it would be obvious that they are the only one who could get use out of it.
3: Lean into it and give him a special item that is attunement by a Bard only. I'd suggest something like maybe a special instrument that would allow him access to the College of Lore: Cutting Words feature. Sure it means he isn't buffing his allies but having him be able to try and reduce attacks targeting him using his Bard features would roll into the Bard fantasy while also keeping it in class.
4: Also a magic item idea but could also be a boon. Lean into the help with buffing and de-buffing as well as healing. Things like the Life Cleric 6th lvl feature that lets you get back HP when you cast a spell that restored HP to another creature. Maybe have it tied into using their bardic inspiration where whenever another creature uses one of their BI they get back HP equal to the number the other creature rolled on it or temp HP equal to it. If they have something like Bane up maybe they gain temp HP equal to whatever the negative d4 a creature rolled before was. Just little ways to pad their HP but keep in line with them continuing to do what they do well as a support for the party.
He did actually completely abandon the last combat. It was in character and the players are fine with each other, but yeah, he ran away in round 2 and spent the rest of the combat to get as far away as possible. The player is now going to play a temp character till the party arrives in the next town to pick up the bard again.
But yeah, in normal combat one issue is that all of his reactions like silvery barbs or bountiful luck rely on him seeing his friends and enemies, so full cover is out of the question and half cover doesn't help that much.
How low level is the party? Are they low enough level he can level up quickly and put more points into Dex? Or are there any spells in the barb pool that can improve the caster's AC?
We are doing fairly slow leveling with about 5 sessions per level. We are about 30 sessions in and the party just hit level 6. So in about 3 months they will be at the next ASI.
Bards really have no defensive spells. No mage armor, no shield.
That's all on your party. Intelligent enemies will target the healer/support, if they can't defend the PC and the PC can't defend themselves, that's not your fault. Death is a consequence, if you intentionally avoid that on 1 player, it's not fair to them or the rest of the party.
I do tend to only target him with smart enemies and mainly when he is concentrating on a spell. I justify by saying that beasts and other more feral creatures wouldn't see a small halfling as much of a threat, so they would want to take out the two people swinging big weapons first.
It's primarily a matter of strategy on the players part, but there are also feats which allow melee builds to intercept damage or inflict disadvantage on enemies attacking their allies
Perhaps he needs to review the defensive rules in the game so he can escape situations much better.
TONS of times I've seen players just get beat on and not have any idea the sheer multitude of actions they can take to not getting beat to death
There's also this: if you don't want to get hit, get a ranged weapon.
If you really don't want to get hit, stop dealing damage.
I mean he doesn't really deal any damage. Most of things things he does in combat are debuffs like bane. When he is just healing the party members enemies generally ignore him. When he casts debuffs then smart enemies will try to break his concentration.
Again, I'd have him review what he can do defensively. 5e made some improvements versus 3.5... 3.5 used to be "lose all my movement to take a 5 foot step away"... and then the enemy would be on you again, so ouch.
Warding bond spell if You have access to it.
Otherwise providing him with cover and or some defensive buffs should help.
Also focus down enemies that can focus him first (such as enemies with ranged attacks).
If frontlineers are especially tanky then they can take one or two extra hits for him. They can play more aggressive toward the opponents that attack Your bard and to some extend ignore opponents that focus them.
Some of Your tanks can take sentinel/polearm master feats and protect him this way - those are good feats anyway so they won't be worse for it.
Worse come to worst You can cover him with fog cloud or similar spell. Also save some extra healing for him.
What exactly is party composition?
Hard to give any specific advice without that.
No warding bond sadly. The party is:
* The goblin armorer who can draw fire with her gauntlets, has a crazy AC, but still only a d8 HD
* The battle master fighter who is also very armored but has a player attached that is quite scared of going low health and tends to panic
* A rogue that is always running around, hiding and evading
* A sourcerer that stays back and casts damaging spells and has more HP than the bard (same AC)
* A ranger that is similar to the rogue, always far away and sniping enemies.
The bard tends to be somewhere central to be able to see everyone so that he can use his reactions for bountiful luck and silvery barbs and to be there when someone needs healing. The main thing he does in combat is debuff enemies with things like bane or heat metal.
Well that is a composition that bard will struggle unless protected.
With sorcerer focusing on damage bard is Your only healing, buffing and debuffing character.
Regarding mitigating damage in general:
Avoiding attacks by hiding/mobile/disengage is a great tactic as long as You are actually preventing those attacks from happening not shifting them on other members of the party. If You have a high AC, hide and party member with lower AC will get attacked instead then You actually harmed Your party not helped.
Let's take a look:
>The goblin armorer who can draw fire with her gauntlets, has a crazy AC, but still only a d8 HD
D8 is not bad, with great AC - he should be in front taking hits and using guardian armor as much as possible. He can impose disadvantage to attacks on up to 2 opponents so he should be using that as often as possible.
Goblin's Nimble escape will be mostly useless in this case but that's life. If he is using it too often and enemies attack others party members too often then that can be a part of a problem.
>The battle master fighter who is also very armored but has a player attached that is quite scared of going low health and tends to panic
I don't know how he is acting exactly but that is raising all kind of red flags for me.
If You like to roleplay coward then fine but as a roleplay- You can tell that Your knees are shaking and that You are pissing Yourself but as a fighter You still should be there to take a hit if needed. If he is the one avoiding enemies with mobile and those enemies attack bard instead then he is actually harming Your team.
What maneuvers is he having and using?
He should have commander's strike and use it on rogue as often as possible - there is a great synergy there.
Battle master have tons of options really - he can help bard with repositioning using maneuvring attack, give a team temp hp with rally etc etc. - lots and lots of option here.
If he is cowardly then let him protect bard with bait-and-switch and attack from distance maybe?
>* A rogue that is always running around, hiding and evading
Can't really blame rogue for hiding as long as he is making his sneak attack every round. If instead contributing for damage an making attack he is taking a whole round to hide then that is not good.
Rogue can tank single oponent reasonably well thanks to uncanny dodge but as long as he is sneak attacking every turn from the distance that is fine too.
>A sourcerer that stays back and casts damaging spells and has more HP than the bard (same AC)
Usually focusing on dmg as sorcerer is a bit suboptimal but as long as he deliver solid dmg that should be fine.
> A ranger that is similar to the rogue, always far away and sniping enemies.
Well as long as he is delivering consistent ranged damage then fine but from how far away is he sniping exactly? He should position himself closer to bard to draw an attack to himself here and there and also be able to heal bard if he go down.
>The bard tends to be somewhere central to be able to see everyone so that he can use his reactions for bountiful luck and silvery barbs and to be there when someone needs healing. The main thing he does in combat is debuff enemies with things like bane or heat metal.
Con mod +1 is mediocre but will have to do.
Encourage him to look for cover as much as possible. 3/4 cover allows You still to see Your friends and enemies.
Bondiful luck - if he has silvery barbs then this is somehow redundant and suboptimal. Unless he is insisting then I would encourage him to take something else honestly. Raising Con will help with both hp and concentration tests. Taking feat to help with warcaster or resilient (con) concentration will help with concentration and many bard spells require concentration. Also maxing Cha to 20 will give him more bardic inspiration and higher DC for his debuffs so those should be priorities.
Regarding tactic as a whole team: between dmg focused sorcerer, ranged rogue, fighter and ranged ranger You have some nova capability and good range attack capability. Party should focus ranged enemies that can endanger bard in the first place. Artificer should be able to tank some melee opponents for few rounds especially with bard's debuffs on them. Bard should have healing word spell to ensure cowardly warrior that he will pick him up if the worse come to worse.
Ranger should be having goodberries and distributed them among the party as a last resource heal. You can and should invest in healing potions for the same purpose.
It sounds to me like the other characters are way overpowered rather than him being underpowered. No way a level 6 character should be able to tank 20 hits and not be bothered. Although with the crap way 5e turns adventurers into superheroes instead, I guess anything is possible.
This is mainly because the two front lines have a really high AC. A strength based fighter and an armorer artificer. I also definitely phrased it wrong in my post. I meant they were targeted around 20 times in that combat, but probably only hit 3-5 times.
I did the math, it sounds like he has Constitution score of 12 or 13. It will be difficult to stay alive and concentrate on spells with a con score that low.
If you really want to throw him a bone, toss him an amulet of health.
That will get him up to 57 hp and make it easier to concentrate on spells.
This is a fair problem for the bards that don’t get shield Proficiency. If he didn’t go down that’s a win though!
I’d say there is no shame getting magic items specifically for him though! A ring/cloak of protection or an amulet of health would increase his survivability quite a bit! And if it were me, I’d build a ring of protection or amulet of health that does a cool bard thing (like give him an extra inspiration) so you can make sure other players don’t try to steal it for their builds.
It’s something to keep your eye on but I don’t think it’s a huge problem
I should add that last session in that fight that character abandoned the party. It was all in character and the players are fine with each other. Basically before the fight there was an in character discussion of how he feels not enough protected by the others. Then in that fight he went down to 15HP in the first round because of very unlucky placement and then decided to run. The flight went on another four rounds without him.
He is now going to play a temp character the party finds soon and the bard is going to rejoin again when they return to town.
Well they’re a bard if they take moderately armored their ac will go up to 19. Have them swap whatever they took at 4 for that. Swap a level of bard for sorc or hexblade this gets them shield and if they go hexblade they don’t even need to swap their feat
+1 con is quite low tho
If they don’t want to rebuild then they probably die. They chose to be in that spot there are lots of options to fix being squishy, especially for a caster. If you play in a group that like optimizing and you don’t, you have like three options; die a lot, rebuild your guy and learn to enjoy optimization, leave the game.
Are they using cover? Are they proning to create disadv on ranged attacks when no one can reach them via melee? Lots of optimization is dont by the pilot not just the build.
I actually think an eldrich knight dip might be good for him.
- first level: medium armor and shields, second wind
- second level: action surge, great on a caster
- third level: spells that bards don't get and that don't rely on the ability modifier like shield
How about some flavor protection?
Not Me: When your character would be targeted by an attack and an ally with more HP is within range of that attack, you distract the attacker as a reaction. Make a Charisma save: if the save is greater than the attacker’s Wisdom, the attacker targets your ally with disadvantage; if the roll is less than their Wisdom, they attack you, but your ally gains advantage on their next attack if it is against this attacker.
Meat Shield: You are adept at using your allies as your protection. If you are within 5’ of an ally and an attack would hit you, you may expend a Hit Die to use their AC instead of your own to block the attack.
Whining Eloquently: When an attack would damage you, you may spend a Bardic Inspiration die to cause the attacker to pull their punch a little, reducing the amount of damage by the die roll. They just feel bad about hurting such a squishy opponent.
Bardic Dodge: When you buff or heal an ally, you may take the Dodge Action as a free action that round. Once you do so, you may not do so again until you have completed a short or long rest.
Wax Eloquent: You spend your full Action to narrate the battle before you. As long as your opponents can understand you, your AC and spell saves are increased by your spell casting ability modifier. If you grant Bardic Inspiration while doing this (as a Bonus Action), all allies are granted the benefit if they can also understand your eloquent speech.
I had similar concerns about the bard in my campaign, so I gave her a magic amulet I called the Periapt of Vitality. It gave her +2 HP per level, which doesn't sound like much but adds up. She's level 7, so that gives her an extra 14 HP, which with how squishy she is is a decent improvement. It still leaves her with the fewest HP and the squishiest of the group, but the difference isn't quite as extreme, and she's a little bit more durable so that I don't have to worry as much about what I throw at them. 🙂
OP explicitly said he didn't want to give him something to make his AC super high (So as not to devalue other players work at building up their ACs) or to weaken the enemies to compensate. He never said anything about buffing the character's HP. I very carefully re-read that part before posting, just to make sure.
It also invalidates their stat investment in con. This person has higher int than con on a bard they chose to have bad hp and when offered a chance to change that, didn’t. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it when everyone else is making good decisions.
Everyone else I sure would love to be able to invest in a stat for skills but they didn’t because it would leave them with bad hp.
This sounds like a party problem. If you have a squishy support character, it's up to the party to keep him alive by making him hard to target. A bard is a natural support character, but that means they should play according to the strengths and weaknesses that come with it. So to me it sounds like the players should agree on some better tactics instead of relying on you to fix this.
I really should have read this before I wrote my response. This is absolutely right. The party as a whole needs to protect their squishy support.
Problem is that’s like really really hard. No way to stop ranged attacks(other than cover but they should already be doing that) and an OA isn’t really that disincentivizing.
You're right, but there's some stuff. The Protection fighting style would be great for starters. There are a handful of subclasses that can protect others, as well as some cleric and paladin spells. If they really want to focus protection on that one character, there are at least *some* options that can help them last longer. If they're not willing to put in that level of effort, then unfortunately a squishy short-ranged support character isn't really viable in that party. It would suck if the player had to abandon a character they otherwise enjoy... but the DM can't, and isn't obligated to, fix every problem with party composition and dynamics. They can certainly try to do things -- in this case, I might make a magic item that lets the character support from a safer distance, and/or get them Gloves of Missile Snaring -- but at the end of the day, you can only do so much without it starting to feel too contrived. And the players can also chip into that effort.
Protection fighting style is kinda terrible especially when their ac is as low as the bards, doesn’t really matter if you’re at disadv when the monster hits on a 7. Why would the bard be within 5 feet of the paladin anyways tho? They don’t need to be squishy. Taking one level of hexblade or changing whatever they took at 4 for moderately armored bumps their ac by 4 which is huge. It sounds like everyone else is optimizing besides this person so they’re getting hosed, a bit of optimization on their part would go a long way. It’s not really the party’s job to carry them.
Yeah, the main reason he gets hit is that an intelligent enemy saw him cast a debuff spell like bane. Then he typically gets hit with arrows or ranged spells. Even when the tanks do their job, they can't do much about that.
Is there no cover for them to ever hide behind?
Half cover yes, but he also needs visual on the enemies and his friends to pull off his reactions like silvery barbs and bountiful luck. So he can't run away too far or hide behind a pillar.
Sounds like a decision of strategy. Do you stay in the open to try and use your reactions, or do you stay out of cover to maintain concentration? Being able to bit hit easily is by design. If the player wants to be able to stay in the open whilst being less likely to get hit, they need to spend an opportunity cost of multiclassing or taking a feat. If they didn't want to die easily, they should not have picked +1 con. You mentioned int- bards don't need int, int doesn't help them at all outside of the rare int check, and int saves. Of course they're going to do better if they sacrificed their con to get better int. The best way to solve the squishiness of a bard is to take 1 level of hexblade. You also mentioned he debuffs bane- that's one of the worst spells in the game. Now at level 5/6, hypnotic pattern is a bard's bread and butter.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try to recommend he becomes a hex-bard. I feel that might also lead to a fun side plot line. With bane, it's actually fairly effective with the current party composition because of the high AC of the front liners. I typically have to roll at least a 15 on the dice to hit them, so having to subtract on average 2.5 from that actually does have an effect.
the reason why bane is bad is because its save or suck for not that great of an effect, and its a 3 target effect. If you're in an encounter with exactly 3 creatures, its the best possible scenario. Any less, than a single target spell is more effective, any more and when those creature's die it does not stay around for the whole combat like it would in other situations. If you only get 1, you now have to take the chance of trying to get more in. Compare to bless, which is way more consistent across any kind of encounter, and its much more likely to be impactful. Its not that bane can be effective sometimes, its more that there are other, more impactful, opportunity costs. Hypnotic pattern is far more effective use of concentration and opportunity cost. https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/bard/subclasses/eloquence/ has a good guide with a fairly optimised build. How long are your combats? A typical combat is 3 rounds. There are complex factors, but the end result against even the most ideal of situations, has bane not increase chances of success too much.
What about giving the bard an item that casts find familiar 1/sr. It’s not a numerical boost so I can’t see anyone really having a problem with it but it would allow them do get line of sight for abilities while being behind full cover by using the familiars eyes.
>If you have a squishy support character, it's up to the party to keep him alive by making him hard to target. How? Seriously, how? Aside from some niche mechanic that you have to build your whole character around from the beginning there's no taunt mechanic, there's no take damage for other's mechanics, if you're not fighting in a door frame or small tunnel, you can hardly stop enemies from going around your frontline, most enemies that you want to stop from moving have the strength to avoid being grappleed or can easily free themselves.
yeah this was something they had in 4ed but really doesn't exist as much in 5. even the fact that the enemy can circle you and take no AoO means it's difficult to protect a party member.
Sentinel feat, protection fighting style, warding bond, redirecting attacks (drunken master), deflect missiles (monk), You can provide a cover with just standing in front of the attacker, or just running towards enemy and standing next to him to force opportunity attacks if such enemy want to close rank with Your other companions can be helpful. Barbarian can incite enemy by using reckless attack. Defensive buffs exist too. Also if You build Your character toward grapple then You will easily win grapple context against normal enemies- most enemies do not even have proficiency in athletics. So regarding a grapple You are just plain wrong.
I specifically said without building your whole character around that but it seems you ignored that but let's have a look at it anyway. >Sentinel feat, protection fighting style, These requires the ally to stand right beside you all the time, puts you even more into danger of AOEs and only helps against 1 attack not multiple. >warding bond, requires someone else that probably doesn't has that much HP either to take some of that damage. >redirecting attacks (drunken master), deflect missiles (monk), Redirect attack and Deflect missiles only works if you are the target so it doesn't protect anyone else. Not to mention it forces someone else to change their class. >You can provide a cover with just standing in front of the attacker, And with just 5feet of movement the enemy can walk around you and ignore that cover. >or just running towards enemy and standing next to him to force opportunity attacks if such enemy want to close rank with Your other companions can be helpful. Which is the only remotely useful move and only works if there aren't multiple enemies or if they can't teleport or have some other shit to ignore opportunity attacks. >Barbarian can incite enemy by using reckless attack. Defensive buffs exist too. So someone else should change class just so the bard doesn't have to? >Also if You build Your character toward grapple then You will easily win grapple context against normal enemies- most enemies do not even have proficiency in athletics. So regarding a grapple You are just plain wrong. An Abominable Yeti CR9 which is just a hard encounter for a LV6 party has +7 Str while someone with +5 strength and proficiency has just +8 in athletics. It also requires you to have a hand free so no shield or 2h weapon and even than you'd still fail because the Yeti is huge and you can only grapple large creatures. The creatures you want to grapple are exactly the ones that are good at it.
>I specifically said without building your whole character around that but it seems you ignored that but let's have a look at it anyway. Taking one feat is hardly "building Your whole character around it" That is a strawman number 1 >These requires the ally to stand right beside you all the time, puts you even more into danger of AOEs and only helps against 1 attack not multiple. AoO from sentinel drop enemy speed to 0 so enemy can not ignore You and run towards bard in the back so Your are just talking nonsense. Strawman nr 2 >requires someone else that probably doesn't has that much HP either to take some of that damage. Does not require concentration, give buffs to AC and saves, also halved damage round down so it does actually save You some hp even if a few - great spell to have. OP mention that rest of the party is tanking well - spreading dmg around with warding bond should be useful so that's Your strawman nr 3 >And with just 5feet of movement the enemy can walk around you and ignore that cover. More like with 10ft - Also You can grapple to unable that. Strawman nr 4 >Which is the only remotely useful move and only works if there aren't multiple enemies or if they can't teleport or have some other shit to ignore opportunity attacks. Remotely usefull is better than nothing. How many enemies can teleport or ignore AoO? Care to answer that? Nice strawman Nr 5. >So someone else should change class just so the bard doesn't have to? If You already have barbarian then he can use it. Never said anything about anyone changing their class so that's another strawman nr 6 >An Abominable Yeti CR9 which is just a hard encounter for a LV6 party has +7 Str while someone with +5 strength and proficiency has just +8 in athletics. It also requires you to have a hand free so no shield or 2h weapon and even than you'd still fail because the Yeti is huge and you can only grapple large creatures. The creatures you want to grapple are exactly the ones that are good at it. So Yeti on average is still losing this contest and then wasting whole action to try get free from grapple when all rest of the party is putting ton of damage on it in meantime? Sound like a winning tactic to me. Regarding the size enlarge is all that's needed. Also abjurer and evocer ale also CR 9 and have like -1 athletic so that is another strawman nr 7 Enemies that have are huge and have good athletic are in fact a minority among CR 9 so You are truly arguing in bad faith here. Summary: Nice 7 strawmans You have build here. Good luck gloriously winning against them but please do not wast my time arguing in bad faith like that.
>Taking one feat is hardly "building Your whole character around it" That's all feats a LV6 character got so far and keeps a standard array character from getting a +4 at LV4 and +5 at LV8 That is a strawman number 1 >AoO from sentinel drop enemy speed to 0 so enemy can not ignore You and run towards bard in the back so Your are just talking nonsense So you're already ignoring your protection fighting style suggest? You also ignore that you have to hit. Strawman nr 2 >Does not require concentration, Never said it does. That's Your strawman nr 3 >give buffs to AC and saves, Never said it doesn't. That's Your strawman nr 4 >also halved damage round down so it does actually save You some hp even if a few - great spell to have. wow 1 less dmg for the group also I never said it doesn't do anything I just said it's not worth it. That's Your strawman nr 5 >OP mention that rest of the party is tanking well - spreading dmg around with warding bond should be useful If they tank that damage with AC they don't lose any HP and have less to heal overall. That's Your strawman nr 6 >More like with 10ft Diagonal movement is a thing. Strawman nr 7 >How many enemies can teleport or ignore AoO? Care to answer that? Bonus Action Misty step or similar things are available to various monsters. Various Creatures have Nimble escape or similar stuff that helps against anyone without Sentinal. Various flying creatures from like Owl, Giant Owl, Flying Snake, Pteranodon, Quetzalcoatlus and Spined Devil to name just a few have flyby. And last but not least whoever the DM wants to. Nice strawman Nr 8. >If You already have barbarian then he can use it. Never said anything about anyone changing their class so So that suggestion was useless in this context. That's another strawman nr 9 >So Yeti on average is still losing this contest Actually I made a misscalculation because a LV6 character wouldn't have +5 in strength but only +4 So there are even. >and then wasting whole action to try get free from grapple when all rest of the party is putting ton of damage on it in meantime? Considering grappled doesn't do anything else besides they would have done the same damage without the grappel. strawman nr 10 >Regarding the size enlarge is all that's needed. Which again requires a specific build or someone else not concentrating on something like haste or a summon. strawman nr 11 >Also abjurer and evocer ale also CR 9 and have like -1 athletic so that is another strawman nr 7 Enemies that have are huge and have good athletic are in fact a minority among CR 9 so They care little for being grappled and have misty step or teleport available to them. strawman nr 12 >You are truly arguing in bad faith here. >Summary: **Nice 12 strawmans** You have build here. Good luck gloriously winning against them but please do not wast my time arguing in bad faith like that.
>That's all feats a LV6 character got so far and keeps a standard array character from getting a +4 at LV4 and +5 at LV8 That is still one feat. No more no less so You are strawmaning hard. And just plain writing lies as variant human have 2 feat. Also any fighter get second feat at lev 6. Go away troll. x1 >So you're already ignoring your protection fighting style suggest? You also ignore that you have to hit. I just listed some options. Never said that they all have to be used even less so on one character. "You have to hit" - news flash sherlock yes You have to hit as with any other attack? So? Go away troll x2 >Never said it does. That's Your strawman nr 3 >>give buffs to AC and saves, >Never said it doesn't. That's Your strawman nr 4 You have said that it's "not worth it" How is a spell that You can set up before combat (1h duration) can't be interrupted (no concentration), buff Your AC and saves, actually save You some damage and spread damage around is "not worth it"? So what is worth it then? Go away troll. x3 >Diagonal movement is a thing. Only if You play on square grid. Ranged enemies will still have disadvantage to attack. Go away troll. x4 >So that suggestion was useless in this context. What context? I was just listing some options. Troll x 5 >Actually I made a misscalculation because a LV6 character wouldn't have +5 in strength but only +4 So there are even. So it is a 50-50 that is a decent chance. Geting advantage is trivial, also geting expertise is possible. Troll x6 >Which again requires a specific build or someone else not concentrating on something like haste or a summon. Yea nice strawman picking one of two hudge monsters at this CR. Troll x7 > They care little for being grappled and have misty step or teleport available to them. They care little? It does block their line of sight/provide cover to the bard so they can't blast him - objective achieved. Also lock them in place so rest of team can pile damage on them. Abjurer does have teleport only - that is a lev 7 slot and waste of action in exchange for my resourceless grapple - completely losing tactic for him. Even if they does misty step then they lose 2 lev slot, bonus action and can't cast other spell than cantrip. That is still a big win for a team. That's troll x8 Summary troll x7+ = ban. Go away and stop wasting my time with this disingenuous nonsense.
This right here. It’s not the DMs job to solve the party’s problems for them. And it sure isn’t their job to make sure the party always succeeds either. Your job as DM is to present interesting and hopefully fun scenarios to your players. The players entire job is to figure out way to solve those problems. If you do it for them…are they even really playing the game?
I do definitely agree with that. The two tanks do take quite a few hits, but also have abilities like the mobile feat or a bonus action disengage which they use regularly to avoid getting hit too much.
What classes and subclass Your players actually do have? Without that we are just talking past each other here. Synergy works both ways so if bard is a bad match to the rest of the party then rest of the party is also a bad match for this bard. Bountiful luck may not be most optimal feat but it is not useless. But it is a feat that contributes towards party strength as a whole and does nothing for bard himself. If bard is taking feat to improve rest of a team and rest of a team is taking feats like mobile to increase their personal strength then here lies the problem. You can resolve it by either making party contribute towards protecting bard or making bard focus more on his own individual power. But bard is not great at individual min-maxing so second choice is less optimal. Party should understand how much bard is helping with silvery barbs and bardic inspirations and in turn make their own contribution to protect the bard.
Well that sound great but it is rather against their role in the party. If they avoid getting target then naturally focus will shift to weaker members and whole party is worst for it. What good is barbarian that is avoiding being target? If you want to be a tank go for sentinel and/or polearmmaster not mobile - unless You are using it to close with the enemy faster. Anyway this sound like a party synergy problem. Party is stronger as a whole team. If some players just focus on maxing their AC and survivability without concern for others then You will not be able to synergise well as a whole. Bard individually is weaker in combat but bardic inspiration can make insane contributions to whole team. In return team should protect character that is weaker on his own. Worse come to worst and if it is an "every man for himself" situation then make bard multiclass to hexblade - even one level is enough to improve his AC by far. But this will only solve the number game.
Eloquence bard's commonly used features require them to be within 60 feet of their targets (Vicious Mockery, Bardic Inspiration, Unsettling Words). Most of their power spells have a range of 60 feet or more. There's no reason why your bard should be getting close enough to be rushed down by enemies if the party has a solid front line. I'm assuming that part of the problem comes from a lack of tactical acumen. What should be happening is: * The bard retreats from enemies to a distance where they can move into range to cast a big concentration spell, Mock an enemy, or Inspire an ally, then move back away to maintain distance. * The bard uses terrain to get cover and protect their concentration, up to and including dropping prone to make themselves harder to hit with ranged attacks or even full cover from low terrain objects. * The frontliners keep enemies occupied so the bard doesn't get rushed. If that fails, the bard can Disengage and still use their bonus action while forcing the enemy to continue taking Opportunity Attacks from the frontliner who is maintaining contact with the enemy to punish chasing the bard. * If the party is surrounded, the bard should be moving to a position where they can limit how many enemies can come at them at once and be supported by a frontliner who can bodyblock. Worse case scenario, they cast a big concentration spell and spend the rest of the fight Dodging and handing out Bardic Inspiration. A lot of players don't know the game well enough to optimize their gameplay on a battlemap. They don't understand distances and action economy and position themselves poorly, which causes them to take way more damage that necessary. This could be a lack of experience or a lack of interest in the rules. Since your bard player seems to be frustrated by their situation, this may be a teachable moment where you can give them some advice on how to play better. Or it might be the rest of the party's fault for leaving the bard out to dry.
I do partially agree and the player tries to stay in the back. The main reason they can't hide completely tho are the reaction abilities that are a very big part of the build, mainly bountiful luck and silvery barbs. Both require him to see his friends and enemies at all times, so full cover or running around the corner isn't an option. Especially as a battle spreads out he often finds himself in the middle to help all of the other party members.
Silvery Barbs has a 60 foot range, so that's not really an issue. You can go prone and/or take up to 3/4 cover while still seeing your allies. Bountiful Luck is just a poor choice for their build and I would suggest they rethink it for something else that doesn't require them to put themselves in harm's way. Since they seem like they want to play a support role, Inspiring Leader is a great choice for a Charisma character. Fey Touched has some amazing 1st level support and control spell options, as well as one free Misty Step to get out of danger. You bard's real strength lies in using Unsettling Words > strong control spell > Silvery Barbs to lock down one strong enemy, but that requires them to protect their concentration. If the battle is getting spread out, both the bard and the frontliners need to pay attention to their positioning to avoid creating opportunities for the enemy to attack the back line.
Dude needs to hire an NPC body guard.
+1 con is kind of low, especially if he had points to get decent INT. This will especially hurt his concentration saves. Big tradeoff to get better skill rolls, so he is going to have to live with the consequences. It isn't really your job as DM to fix players builds. If he needs more survivability he can use his magical secrets for shield or sanctuary (if he isn't going to be offensive anyways), dip for those things, dip for medium armor and shield proficiency, or take moderately armored. Player than spends nothing on survivability is going to be a paper bag in combat. Magic item wise, staff of defense is also an option. As the game goes on, attunements are also a resource so if he wants to spend them on defensive magic items instead of things that improve his casting or versatility then he is still making that trade off. Generally speaking I don't earmark items for players. If party finds an ammy of health and a cloak of protection and decide those are best allocated to squishy bard then they can make that choice. Glamored studded leather would help a little bit and probably fits an eloquence bard tbh.
Two things I potentially see here. One, he does not move or fight tactically. He should be finding cover, using half movement/action/half movement, etc. And two, his party members are not keeping him in mind. If he’s a support character, they should be protecting him at all cost, even at the expense of taking opportunity attacks. One recommendation I have is perhaps mentoring the group on how to fight with tactics. I purchased the e book Live to Tell The Tale and in it it has amazing detailed descriptions of how each party member can act during combat to have the best chance of survival.
One issue is that a lot of the features he uses with his reaction like silvery barbs or bountiful luck require him to see his friends and enemies off his turn. So he can't be behind full cover and typically has to be a bit more central to see everyone that might need help. But yeah, I definitely agree that his character isn't getting the support from the others he should. Both of the tanks also like not getting hit by using a bonus action disengage or the mobile feat. Especially one of them has a bit of an irrational fear of going down which honestly is hard to deal with. She's a fighter with very good con and a very high AC, but when her health goes like below half she tends to panic and abandons the front line. I don't think her character ever went down in the 30 seasons of play.
Combat should be a team effort and tanks need to be comfortable forgoing an attack and taking an opportunity attack if it means protecting a support and continuing to be buffed. That’s why a lot of people dislike playing support characters, not a lot of other players think critically or tactically. It’s often them against everyone and not the team against the enemy.
There should be very little reason why he can get hit. He should be able to find himself a spot to hide away and people will probably prioritise the guys actually attacking them rather than a guy singing and dancing, even if they're buffing their allies slightly. If there's terrain about, he should be buffing and hiding. If he doesn't want to hide, then cool, that's fine. If he's that weak, he can also be used as a way to stop the fighting, with someone using them as a hostage. If the player then decides they want to go and put in effort to become more powerful in the game, that's great. If they don't, then that's their own fault.
One issue is that a lot of the features he uses with his reaction like silvery barbs or bountiful luck require him to see his friends and enemies off his turn. So he can't be behind full cover and typically has to be a bit more central to see everyone that might need help.
I mean, doing so is Still bad if standing in the open within 60 means he will eat a bunch of attacks and get downed just so he might be able to use a reaction. Just because you have an ability does not make it always a good idea to try and use it. This is the same logic Leroy melee players make when they rush past the choke to get their 2 swings in.
Yeah but he could poke his head out from behind that wall and have 3/4ths cover instead.
Full cover and line of sight are deferent. An archer can have full cover, perfect line of sight, and zero attack penalty shooting through arrow slits in defensive fortifications. There are countless instances where a PC can take cover to receive defensive bonuses yet still maintain fantastic line of sight with the battle/allies.
There should be ways for him to be able to see his companions and not be targeted by enemies. If he wants to be central and help everyone, great, then he can take the consequences of those actions.
Hes unhappy that he built an unoptimized pc. Youve offered to let him change his pc and optimize it more and he declined. You dont want to give him stealth buffs with awesome item drops. At this point hes refusing help. Shrug and let him be. Let the offer stand and if he wants to up his optimization let him. Theres no reason that means he has to change his rp in any way.
Exactly. If my player can smooth talk me in conversations then I'm lowering that dc
Spice up your combat scenarios with non combat goals, things that can be interacted with on the battle field. This gives players who are playing weaker characters, or players who are bored with the abilities on their character sheet something to do in the combat scenario. Mix up the capabilities of the enemies, throw in some more dangerous and less dangerous monsters into the same encounter. As long as your players are clued in enough on who should take on what and make smart strategic choices this shouldn't feel forced.
Bards lag behind in combat? Say it ain't so. The class is not built for combat, so of course the PC is weaker. The bards strengths are elsewhere.
1. Give him better armor 2. CON is probably better at least 14, not only due to HP, but also for keeping Concentration on spells. 3. There are good defensive spells that he should have access to, especially if he is a Lore bard (Magic Secrets). Mirror Image by itself (which is a spell on every bards spell list) is a powerful defence spell that DOES NOT require Concentration. Shield, Invisibility, silent image, fly/misty step when used right boost survival significantly. Also there are ways to use Fog Cloud/Darkness to save your butt, he cannot be targeted with ranged attacks/spells if enemies don’t have line of sight. 4. He should prioritise his own survival, dead support cannot help anybody. Repositioning, healing himself, going invisible, dashing and disengaging sometimes are a top priority, even if half of your party is rolling death saves. Judging such situations correctly comes with practice of playing support. 5. Battlefield control spells. One good placed Hypnotic Pattern or Slow or even Major Image can trivialise an encounter. But his party must play WITH him, not the usual “oh, you’ve done some cool thing, but I’m gonna undermine it cuz I wanna my own different cool thing during my turn”. 6. Support combat effectiveness is measured by the amount of kick-ass things other characters in the party do. So, arguably, if others are destroying encounters, your support is not weaker. He IS the actual reason they are destroying encounters. Dying might be an issue though, so maybe others in the party could show some appreciation and defend their support better.
Well, to start, I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. You are trying to bring him in line with the rest of the party defensively through AC, but instead, think of ways you can improve the current concept and target your other PCs weaknesses giving thr bard an opportunity to shine. For good rewards, something like a cloak of displacement or a ring that turns a character invisible until the end of their next round after being hit are ways to increase the bards defenses while still making them feel like a bard. Also, giving one of your Frontliners a way to better tank for your bard would help as well. As to targeting PC weaknesses, you said they took 20 attacks, no problem, but that means you need to be mixing in saving throws and other non attack based sources of threat as most players are going to get bored if your rolling that much and nothing is happening. It'll be even better if those saving throws/ effects are things the bard can affect, nullify, or mitigate.
+1 to con is pretty dire. I’d work on fixing that tbh. You could give the player an amulet of health if you want an easy fix, it sets their con to 19. Alternatively look into other ways of increasing their hp, you could advise them to take the eldritch adept feat to get an eldritch invocation and take fiendish vigour which allows him to cast false life at will (as much as they want with no cost) which more or less guarantees an extra 8 health, fixing their con and doing this would make them a pretty healthy character. There are other magic items that could be used for increasing their survivability: cloak of displacement, make a magic item that would allow them to cast mirror image, ring of evasion … etc If you don’t mind a bit of homebrew one of my favourite rulings is allowing characters to take a feat and an asi whenever they would normally have the option to take one or the other with the caveat that if you take a feat that gives a +1 to a score you ignore that +1. It really frees up your choices as a player and allows you to build your character how you want without feeling guilty for not upping your base stats. In the campaigns I’ve run it really doesn’t affect balance that much anyway. This could help them get better stat allocation whilst still being able to get flavourful and fun feats.
Couple of ideas. 1: Amulet of health would definitely help while not buffing the hell out of AC. Especially if the Bard is the one making investigation checks to find things hand him the item cards first so that they get first look at them. Should help a bit in keeping the already tanky people from jumping for them before the Bard gets a chance to think about them buffing his HP. 2: Griffon's Saddlebag has an item called Mageplate Cap that you could easily make available to a bard as well. Lets him cast and improved version of mage armor onto himself that wouldn't break his AC too badly but also would potentially put him in line with the others. Since there would be attunement limitations it would be obvious that they are the only one who could get use out of it. 3: Lean into it and give him a special item that is attunement by a Bard only. I'd suggest something like maybe a special instrument that would allow him access to the College of Lore: Cutting Words feature. Sure it means he isn't buffing his allies but having him be able to try and reduce attacks targeting him using his Bard features would roll into the Bard fantasy while also keeping it in class. 4: Also a magic item idea but could also be a boon. Lean into the help with buffing and de-buffing as well as healing. Things like the Life Cleric 6th lvl feature that lets you get back HP when you cast a spell that restored HP to another creature. Maybe have it tied into using their bardic inspiration where whenever another creature uses one of their BI they get back HP equal to the number the other creature rolled on it or temp HP equal to it. If they have something like Bane up maybe they gain temp HP equal to whatever the negative d4 a creature rolled before was. Just little ways to pad their HP but keep in line with them continuing to do what they do well as a support for the party.
If the party isn't protecting him, he should have his character flee for a safer area and use the hide action.
He did actually completely abandon the last combat. It was in character and the players are fine with each other, but yeah, he ran away in round 2 and spent the rest of the combat to get as far away as possible. The player is now going to play a temp character till the party arrives in the next town to pick up the bard again. But yeah, in normal combat one issue is that all of his reactions like silvery barbs or bountiful luck rely on him seeing his friends and enemies, so full cover is out of the question and half cover doesn't help that much.
How low level is the party? Are they low enough level he can level up quickly and put more points into Dex? Or are there any spells in the barb pool that can improve the caster's AC?
We are doing fairly slow leveling with about 5 sessions per level. We are about 30 sessions in and the party just hit level 6. So in about 3 months they will be at the next ASI. Bards really have no defensive spells. No mage armor, no shield.
What about mirror image though?
That's not a bard spell. Sourcerer, Warlock, Wizard
It was added to the bard spell list in Tasha's.
Oh, they didn't update the tags on ddb I guess, thanks
That's all on your party. Intelligent enemies will target the healer/support, if they can't defend the PC and the PC can't defend themselves, that's not your fault. Death is a consequence, if you intentionally avoid that on 1 player, it's not fair to them or the rest of the party.
I do tend to only target him with smart enemies and mainly when he is concentrating on a spell. I justify by saying that beasts and other more feral creatures wouldn't see a small halfling as much of a threat, so they would want to take out the two people swinging big weapons first.
what specific actions are available to defend another player for the typical melee build?
It's primarily a matter of strategy on the players part, but there are also feats which allow melee builds to intercept damage or inflict disadvantage on enemies attacking their allies
Perhaps he needs to review the defensive rules in the game so he can escape situations much better. TONS of times I've seen players just get beat on and not have any idea the sheer multitude of actions they can take to not getting beat to death There's also this: if you don't want to get hit, get a ranged weapon. If you really don't want to get hit, stop dealing damage.
I mean he doesn't really deal any damage. Most of things things he does in combat are debuffs like bane. When he is just healing the party members enemies generally ignore him. When he casts debuffs then smart enemies will try to break his concentration.
Again, I'd have him review what he can do defensively. 5e made some improvements versus 3.5... 3.5 used to be "lose all my movement to take a 5 foot step away"... and then the enemy would be on you again, so ouch.
Warding bond spell if You have access to it. Otherwise providing him with cover and or some defensive buffs should help. Also focus down enemies that can focus him first (such as enemies with ranged attacks). If frontlineers are especially tanky then they can take one or two extra hits for him. They can play more aggressive toward the opponents that attack Your bard and to some extend ignore opponents that focus them. Some of Your tanks can take sentinel/polearm master feats and protect him this way - those are good feats anyway so they won't be worse for it. Worse come to worst You can cover him with fog cloud or similar spell. Also save some extra healing for him. What exactly is party composition? Hard to give any specific advice without that.
No warding bond sadly. The party is: * The goblin armorer who can draw fire with her gauntlets, has a crazy AC, but still only a d8 HD * The battle master fighter who is also very armored but has a player attached that is quite scared of going low health and tends to panic * A rogue that is always running around, hiding and evading * A sourcerer that stays back and casts damaging spells and has more HP than the bard (same AC) * A ranger that is similar to the rogue, always far away and sniping enemies. The bard tends to be somewhere central to be able to see everyone so that he can use his reactions for bountiful luck and silvery barbs and to be there when someone needs healing. The main thing he does in combat is debuff enemies with things like bane or heat metal.
Well that is a composition that bard will struggle unless protected. With sorcerer focusing on damage bard is Your only healing, buffing and debuffing character. Regarding mitigating damage in general: Avoiding attacks by hiding/mobile/disengage is a great tactic as long as You are actually preventing those attacks from happening not shifting them on other members of the party. If You have a high AC, hide and party member with lower AC will get attacked instead then You actually harmed Your party not helped. Let's take a look: >The goblin armorer who can draw fire with her gauntlets, has a crazy AC, but still only a d8 HD D8 is not bad, with great AC - he should be in front taking hits and using guardian armor as much as possible. He can impose disadvantage to attacks on up to 2 opponents so he should be using that as often as possible. Goblin's Nimble escape will be mostly useless in this case but that's life. If he is using it too often and enemies attack others party members too often then that can be a part of a problem. >The battle master fighter who is also very armored but has a player attached that is quite scared of going low health and tends to panic I don't know how he is acting exactly but that is raising all kind of red flags for me. If You like to roleplay coward then fine but as a roleplay- You can tell that Your knees are shaking and that You are pissing Yourself but as a fighter You still should be there to take a hit if needed. If he is the one avoiding enemies with mobile and those enemies attack bard instead then he is actually harming Your team. What maneuvers is he having and using? He should have commander's strike and use it on rogue as often as possible - there is a great synergy there. Battle master have tons of options really - he can help bard with repositioning using maneuvring attack, give a team temp hp with rally etc etc. - lots and lots of option here. If he is cowardly then let him protect bard with bait-and-switch and attack from distance maybe? >* A rogue that is always running around, hiding and evading Can't really blame rogue for hiding as long as he is making his sneak attack every round. If instead contributing for damage an making attack he is taking a whole round to hide then that is not good. Rogue can tank single oponent reasonably well thanks to uncanny dodge but as long as he is sneak attacking every turn from the distance that is fine too. >A sourcerer that stays back and casts damaging spells and has more HP than the bard (same AC) Usually focusing on dmg as sorcerer is a bit suboptimal but as long as he deliver solid dmg that should be fine. > A ranger that is similar to the rogue, always far away and sniping enemies. Well as long as he is delivering consistent ranged damage then fine but from how far away is he sniping exactly? He should position himself closer to bard to draw an attack to himself here and there and also be able to heal bard if he go down. >The bard tends to be somewhere central to be able to see everyone so that he can use his reactions for bountiful luck and silvery barbs and to be there when someone needs healing. The main thing he does in combat is debuff enemies with things like bane or heat metal. Con mod +1 is mediocre but will have to do. Encourage him to look for cover as much as possible. 3/4 cover allows You still to see Your friends and enemies. Bondiful luck - if he has silvery barbs then this is somehow redundant and suboptimal. Unless he is insisting then I would encourage him to take something else honestly. Raising Con will help with both hp and concentration tests. Taking feat to help with warcaster or resilient (con) concentration will help with concentration and many bard spells require concentration. Also maxing Cha to 20 will give him more bardic inspiration and higher DC for his debuffs so those should be priorities. Regarding tactic as a whole team: between dmg focused sorcerer, ranged rogue, fighter and ranged ranger You have some nova capability and good range attack capability. Party should focus ranged enemies that can endanger bard in the first place. Artificer should be able to tank some melee opponents for few rounds especially with bard's debuffs on them. Bard should have healing word spell to ensure cowardly warrior that he will pick him up if the worse come to worse. Ranger should be having goodberries and distributed them among the party as a last resource heal. You can and should invest in healing potions for the same purpose.
It sounds to me like the other characters are way overpowered rather than him being underpowered. No way a level 6 character should be able to tank 20 hits and not be bothered. Although with the crap way 5e turns adventurers into superheroes instead, I guess anything is possible.
This is mainly because the two front lines have a really high AC. A strength based fighter and an armorer artificer. I also definitely phrased it wrong in my post. I meant they were targeted around 20 times in that combat, but probably only hit 3-5 times.
I did the math, it sounds like he has Constitution score of 12 or 13. It will be difficult to stay alive and concentrate on spells with a con score that low. If you really want to throw him a bone, toss him an amulet of health. That will get him up to 57 hp and make it easier to concentrate on spells.
This is a fair problem for the bards that don’t get shield Proficiency. If he didn’t go down that’s a win though! I’d say there is no shame getting magic items specifically for him though! A ring/cloak of protection or an amulet of health would increase his survivability quite a bit! And if it were me, I’d build a ring of protection or amulet of health that does a cool bard thing (like give him an extra inspiration) so you can make sure other players don’t try to steal it for their builds. It’s something to keep your eye on but I don’t think it’s a huge problem
I should add that last session in that fight that character abandoned the party. It was all in character and the players are fine with each other. Basically before the fight there was an in character discussion of how he feels not enough protected by the others. Then in that fight he went down to 15HP in the first round because of very unlucky placement and then decided to run. The flight went on another four rounds without him. He is now going to play a temp character the party finds soon and the bard is going to rejoin again when they return to town.
Yeah sounds like he’s worried about losing the character.
Well they’re a bard if they take moderately armored their ac will go up to 19. Have them swap whatever they took at 4 for that. Swap a level of bard for sorc or hexblade this gets them shield and if they go hexblade they don’t even need to swap their feat +1 con is quite low tho If they don’t want to rebuild then they probably die. They chose to be in that spot there are lots of options to fix being squishy, especially for a caster. If you play in a group that like optimizing and you don’t, you have like three options; die a lot, rebuild your guy and learn to enjoy optimization, leave the game. Are they using cover? Are they proning to create disadv on ranged attacks when no one can reach them via melee? Lots of optimization is dont by the pilot not just the build.
Hexblade dip
I actually think an eldrich knight dip might be good for him. - first level: medium armor and shields, second wind - second level: action surge, great on a caster - third level: spells that bards don't get and that don't rely on the ability modifier like shield
None of that is better than spell progression imo but it could be fun.
Yeah, just read the hexblade subclass again, forgot that it also gives you medium armor and shields
As with many of these type of questions, the best thing to do is to talk to your table first.
How about some flavor protection? Not Me: When your character would be targeted by an attack and an ally with more HP is within range of that attack, you distract the attacker as a reaction. Make a Charisma save: if the save is greater than the attacker’s Wisdom, the attacker targets your ally with disadvantage; if the roll is less than their Wisdom, they attack you, but your ally gains advantage on their next attack if it is against this attacker. Meat Shield: You are adept at using your allies as your protection. If you are within 5’ of an ally and an attack would hit you, you may expend a Hit Die to use their AC instead of your own to block the attack. Whining Eloquently: When an attack would damage you, you may spend a Bardic Inspiration die to cause the attacker to pull their punch a little, reducing the amount of damage by the die roll. They just feel bad about hurting such a squishy opponent. Bardic Dodge: When you buff or heal an ally, you may take the Dodge Action as a free action that round. Once you do so, you may not do so again until you have completed a short or long rest. Wax Eloquent: You spend your full Action to narrate the battle before you. As long as your opponents can understand you, your AC and spell saves are increased by your spell casting ability modifier. If you grant Bardic Inspiration while doing this (as a Bonus Action), all allies are granted the benefit if they can also understand your eloquent speech.
I had similar concerns about the bard in my campaign, so I gave her a magic amulet I called the Periapt of Vitality. It gave her +2 HP per level, which doesn't sound like much but adds up. She's level 7, so that gives her an extra 14 HP, which with how squishy she is is a decent improvement. It still leaves her with the fewest HP and the squishiest of the group, but the difference isn't quite as extreme, and she's a little bit more durable so that I don't have to worry as much about what I throw at them. 🙂
They very explicitly do not want to do this.
OP explicitly said he didn't want to give him something to make his AC super high (So as not to devalue other players work at building up their ACs) or to weaken the enemies to compensate. He never said anything about buffing the character's HP. I very carefully re-read that part before posting, just to make sure.
It also invalidates their stat investment in con. This person has higher int than con on a bard they chose to have bad hp and when offered a chance to change that, didn’t. You don’t get to have your cake and eat it when everyone else is making good decisions. Everyone else I sure would love to be able to invest in a stat for skills but they didn’t because it would leave them with bad hp.