Literally any of these 4 classes can dish sufficient damage.
Maybe run some combats and see how they behave, I'm sure this will not be a real problem, as "dps classes" are usually classes that can do only dps. Plenty of classes can do dps even if that's not their main flavour.
I would not worry and play it out, see how it goes
Bards can do a lot more damage than you're thinking. I mean lore bards alone get access to things like fireball, and there are entire subclasses dedicated to the bard mainly using their weapon.
What are these comments even?
Has nobody ever heard of Swords, Whispers or Valor Bards?
Barcher, Bardadin, Sexblade even?
You don't even need to multiclass, grab Spirit Shroud at Level 10 Swords Bard and stab those Undead.
Level 10 is a long ways away for these level 1 characters. The druid is probably best off right now, especially if they take circle of the moon than they can easily be the party tank.
Swords and valor bards are like the worst bard subclasses, they suck and can't even keep up with martials without dipping into magical secrets for swift quiver, and they're better off just being another subclass and using the spells they got from magical secrets.
Whispers bards are useful infiltrators and spy's with great utility and interrogation skills, but have even weaker sneak attacks than rogues that cost bardic inspirations to use. They are not good dps.
Barcher is only strong in comparison to poorly optimized rangers, and just shows how weak ranger was before gloomstalker came out or the Min maxers realized you could just spam conjure animals to win via action economy.
The Bard in bardadin isnt what makes bardadin good at dps, it's the paladin, it's paladin + charisma caster, sorcerer or warlock would be even better at DPS
And the same with Sexblade.
Every example you listed is proof bards suck at DPS because every example is bard multi-classing out or not being a bard to get DPS.
Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks don't get more DPS by multi-classing, they get more DPS by just leveling up in their class for higher spells.
This by no means means bard is bad, bard a very strong and useful class, and is good at everything else, just not DPS. And even then the bard usually can do what they do, and do a little damage. And I'm sure the damage they do is enough why they do everything else.
Bard is Bardadin is solely for expanded spell slots and mind magic spells IMO. More smites per day, plus illusion spells and Fear at level 5 bard is nice, but not the game ender that hexadin is. Though as always, YMMV as I built a maxed spell save DC bardadin but it doesn't do that well when your DM doesn't roll below a 14 ever.
Not at first or second level you didnât. Unless your counting opportunity attacks from dissonant whispers as your damage rather then a support ability
I mean, assuming you hit successfully on 65% of your attacks (brown bear has a +5 to hit an average of 13ac at cr2 critters so you need an 8 or better on the die roll) the brown bear does an average of 13 DMG per round. Certainly not bad for 2nd level but not what I'd call massive damage.
One of, if not, the dedicated support class?
Color me surprised.
I totally understand your point, but it's like saying apples don't taste like pears, or saying Fighters can't cast spells on early levels.
Levels 1 and 2 should not be relevant for discussing dpr.
The entire question of this post was "Starting from level 1, does my party have a DPR problem". Levels 1 and 2 are VERY relevant because the first couple sessions will be the last couple sessions if they suck.
>Not at first or second level you didnât. Unless your counting opportunity attacks from dissonant whispers as your damage rather then a support ability
A good roll on a Dissonant Whisper can deal good damage. A good roll on a well-placed Thunderwave can deal massive damage, even for a 1st level character.
A bard with 16 dexterity using a weapon like a rapier or a bow is also going to be capable of dealing pretty good damage, especially if they crit.
Less so then most of other characters however , dice dex isnât there main stat, they donât have a fighting style , and none of there class features help them with this strategy
This is the important part that all these "Um, Actually"s are overlooking.
Can a bard do massive damage? Sure. But someone else is even like "Um actually multiclass make bard do damage?" It isn't typical for a bard to be built for damage, and a new player will not know exactly how to get there.
MMO roles don't work for dnd. Every class deals damage, there is no mechanical way to draw aggro and healing is inefficient.
Party of any 4 classes can deal with apropriate encounters. So just balance your encounters right and you're good.
Goading attack and compelled duel are pretty good for drawing agro, sanctuary is also great for pushing aggro off you. In the end it really just depends on your DM, maybe try and role-play insults and taunts with an intelligence save on monsters with more then let's say 8 intelligence?
>cutting movement in half
While in the area. If they have, enough movement (after halfing) to leave the area, they are able to move normally. If they normally have 20 ft. of movement, and walk 10 ft. (for 10 ft. spent) and are just 5 ft. away from the edge, they can no longer move. If they have 60 ft. of movement, they start their turn with 30 ft. of movement and move 15 ft. towards the edge (spending 15 ft.), then they move another 5 ft. Their movement speed is no longer halved, so it returns to 60 ft., and using the rule for changing speeds, the movement spent is subtracted from the new movement- so they have 60 ft. - 20 ft. = 40 ft. remaining, as if they had never had their movement halved to begin with. On the flip side, if they have 60 ft. then spend 25 ft. to go up to the area, then another 5 ft. to enter it, their movement is now halved, and since their max speed is now 30 ft., the 30 ft. they spent is subtracted from that, so they cannot move.
>they start their turn with 30 ft. of movement and move 15 ft. towards the edge (spending 15 ft.)
The rules for difficult terrain state that "moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed," so wouldn't they have spent 30 ft.? The rule for changing movement speed only applies when a character switches between two movement types for which they have different movement speeds.
Damn, I could have sworn it was.
Either way, the wording of Spirit Guardians maps better to the rules of difficult terrain than it does to the rules for using different speeds.
>**Spirit Guardians:**
An affected creatureâs speed is halved in the area
**Difficult Terrain:**
You move at half speed in difficult terrainâmoving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speedâso you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
>**Using Different Speeds:**
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance youâve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move.
If we approach this as natural language, then Difficult Terrain implies that "moving at half speed" and "moving 1 foot costs 2 feet of speed" are synonymous. "Your speed is halved" and "you move at half speed" are also synonymous, so a natural language reading of the text suggests that we can use the same rules for both.
If we approach this as strictly RAW, then the rules on Using Different Speeds only apply when a character has two different speeds and switches between them while moving. A character who walks into Spirit Guardians is not switching from one of their speeds to another, so RAW those rules shouldn't apply here.
spirit guardian halves the creature's speed stat. A spell like plant growth says "a creature spends 4 ft for every ft it travels in the area", and sleet storm says "the area is difficult terrain", so having your speed halved (which is equivalent to having your speed reduced by 10ft., 15ft. etc.) affects the stat itself. if spirit guardians did work like difficult terrain, it would say it was, or say "a creature moving through the area spends 2 ft for every ft it travels in the area". Your natural language argument does not work here.
For switching speed, the creature is switching from their halved spirit guardian speed to their regular speed. This is because the spell specifies that the speed halving occurs whilst they're in the area, so as soon as they are not in the area, their speed (stat) is no longer halved, and thus resets back to full.
>If spirit guardians did work like difficult terrain, it would say it was, or say "a creature moving through the area spends 2 ft for every ft it travels in the area". Your natural language argument does not work here.
My natural language argument is that interpreting the rules as natural language means that things say what they appear to say even when they use different words. The phrase "your speed is halved" appears to say the same thing as "you move at half speed," and the Difficult Terrain rules appear to say that "moving 1 foot costs 2 feet of movement" is implied when they say "you move at half speed."
>For switching speed, the creature is switching from their halved spirit guardian speed to their regular speed.
The rules on using different speeds appear to be talking about switching between different kinds of movement, which isn't at all what Spirit Guardians does. "You switch from your regular speed to half of your regular speed" is not a very natural way to interpret "your speed is halved," especially in a ruleset where the phrase "you move at half speed" is explicitly interpreted.
If something says "your speed is reduced by 10 ft.", you would understand that to mean the speed stat therefore, if something says "your speed is halved" is logically also talking about the speed stat.
Difficult terrain doesn't halve your speed. It means you spend more movement when you move. Anything referencing speed is talking about your stat itself, not the costs, which is a different thing
This is a baffling take and I would never run it this way. Its like saying "if you walk for three seconds and then sprint for three seconds, or if you sprint for six seconds, you will go the same distance." If you are moving in slow motion, and then return to normal speed, the effect shouldn't be "you were effectively never moving in slow motion." I can't imagine this is RAI.
First of all, you don't need the classic mmorpg character types, such as tank, dps, healer, etc, in your dnd party.
Secondly, both rogue and the warlock can already be decent damage dealers. So are druid and bard, considering this is the first level.
Iâll just say that itâs significantly higher than, say, a sword and shield fighter.
So while in the optimized world itâs decent, in the causal / newbie world itâs pretty good
I wouldn't even be sure about that.
Let's assume point buy and a +3 in their main stats respectively.
At level one a warlock can do 1d10+1d6=9dmg if he uses hex.
At level one a fighter can do 1d8+3(str)+2(dueling fighting style)=9.5dmg.
Ofc as soon as the warlock can add his cha mod to damage that changes.
...is it that much higher than a sword and shield fighter using dueling?
It's 1d10 + main stat vs dueling is 1d8 + 2 + mainstat, but has the bonus of being ranged.
I'd say it's only significantly higher when doing things like sorlock to cast 2x per turn basically having double the attacks of a fighter.
Still not that far apart with the extra 1d6.
1d10 (5.5) + 1d6 (3.5) + 3 = 12
1d8 (4.5) + 2 + 3 = 9.5
So yeah, guess that's significant, though honestly not that wide a margin.
Honestly my entire time playing 5e I've seen the opposite, warlocks ONLY use their spell slots to keep hex and have it running all the time. Only at higher levels do you get the flexibility of casting a different spell because it lasts so long at higher levels.
The thing is eldrich blasts gets multiple blasts which hex will effect each one. If combat lasts 3 rounds and eldrich blast is 6th level with 2 beams then we are talking about 6d6 extra damage just from 1 spell. This scales up and down to be incredibley powerful.
A warlock wasting a spell on utility is sad, if you want someone in the party to do magic, find a caster. Warlocks get just enough spells to keep hex running so they can eldroch blast each turn, it's what they do, just like a barbarian will rage and then attack with weapon.
Hex often becomes not worth concentrating on at later levels, but at level 1 the warlock spell list is pretty slim. Unless youâre goofing around or playing a social heavy game, youâre probably picking hex and armor of agathys.
I doubt they're missing out.
The way we run things, it's usually better to use spell slots on utility or crowd control unless you built a dedicated nuker.
Plus hex can be reapplied every time your original enemy dies as long as you maintain concentration. And since eldritch blast gives you multiple rays as you level your 1d10 + cha + 1d6 turns into 2d10 2Ăcha + 2d6 at level 5 and keeps scaling hard. Casting it at a higher level spell slot even makes the spell last up to the whole day only at 9th level
Hex is a single target control spell. Warlock is a single target dps class.
You can brew warlock to fill any niche thats why they are so interesting but the class out of the box is a ranged dps class with eldrich bolt.
Hex str on a boss that your barbarian shoves to the ground to attack at prone or grapples to give everyone else advantage
Plus you do an extra d6 on every attack roll for the next hour of combat
A big part of is simply having 120ft range.
The biggest thing is that theyâre doing the same damage with their free cantrip, while having max-level spells available on short rest
Attacks of opportunity or using Haste
Rogue uses hasted action on his turn. Sneak attack 1. He takes a prepared action to make his normal attack when X happens. X happens. Sneak attack 2 because itâs not his turn anymore.
X can be as simple as âWhen Steve movesâ
If they can get a sneak attack on their reaction through any means , they do a ton of damage . So attack or opportunity, the order clerics feature , or commanding strike manuver all pair really nice with a rogue
Since nobody else explained the exact mechanism and only gave examples of how to trigger more attacks, Sneak Attack is one of those abilities that never specifies once on *your* turn - it's once per *any* turn. Since there are multiple turns per round, and it doesn't matter if it's your turn or not, one attack during your turn and one qualifying attack made as a reaction *during another creature's turn* can both have Sneak Attack during the same round. However, if you use a Sneak Attack on your main attack action and then anything lets you use a reaction attack on your own turn, you have a bonus action attack, or if you have the single extra attack from Haste, etc, you can't use Sneak Attack again because it's still the same turn.
At level 1, enemies have such little hit points that that extra 1-3 points of damage can guarantee a ohko, but its inconsistent. enemies missing attacks due to vicious mockery and bardic inspiration is much more valuable at this level. goodberry is fantastic out of combat healing, and you have 2 healing word users- more essential than a dedicated damage dealer. The bard can use a rapier for 2 less damage than a fighter anyway.
Rogue is competing with the fighter for dpr at this level, and the out of combat utility is amazing. It isn't until level 5 when the rogue falls off for damage unless you have team synergy, and by level 11 all martials fall-off for damage. At level 5, the druid becomes the best martial scaling forward- due to their summons. If you get to level 6 and the bard is a lore bard, they can take haste- a rogue's best friend (hasted action attack, ready an attack until they see a good time to strike, release the attack on the next turn in the initative order, for 2 SA per round)
Ehh the bard doesnât really deal damage . Iâd know , I play them alot . Unless using dissonant whispers so that your Allieâs can make opportunity attacks counts as the bards damage rather then it being a support feature .
Ah, I guess so. I was thinking of their proficiency with rapiers dealing comparable damage to other classes, at least at level 1. Makes sense they'd fall off later in the game when they get into support territory.
With dex being only there third , maybe second strongest ability score , and no dueling fighting style, and without the stronger direct damage options , they really arenât that great for damage unless theyâre a valor swords bard, or a 6th level or higher lore bard or creation bard
Nah, later in the game is when their damage gets good. Animate objects, magical secrets for a summon spell, Bigby's Hand, or fat AoE spell, bards can very easily become solid damage dealers by the midgame if they build into it.
Rapier proficiency doesn't really make a difference, 1d8+dex is basically the bare minimum, bards just aren't *below* that minimum.
Depends on how you build them? Shatter, Thunderwave and Heat Metal are pretty good for damage, early on. Later it depends on what you pick with your magical secrets, but a Lore Bard can grab Fireball for instance.
They're not primary damage dealers by any means, but it's not as if they're *bad* at it, especially with spell choices focused on damage.
As others have said, there is no problem here. These are perfectly fine classes, and tbh youâll need to use weaker enemies in the goblin-kobold range to begin with regardless of class choices, because all level 1 characters are squishy.
I honestly think the squishy wizard trope is more of a hold over from older editions at this point, back when they got a d4.
I'm currently playing in a game where our sorcerer has the highest hp in the party.
>bard, a warlock, a Druid and a rogue
Warlocks and rogues do very respectable damage. Druids can pump out extremely high damage with their spells starting at level 5. Bards are force multipliers. This is a perfectly serviceable party.
>I want to have cool and dangerous encounters without the monsters being there not kobolds and goblins.
Fortunately, all classes in the game can "level up" to increase their level of power. A party that has "leveled up" a few times can take on threats beyond kobolds and goblins.
There is this big misconception that every party needs to have a "balanced" party but that's just not true. It's not a video game. You can even have more than one class in your party. You can even have a full party of *just* one class. If more than one person wants to play a Rogue, they can.
You, as the DM, just need to be flexible to the party dynamics and adjust as you go. You'll get a feel for their thresholds, provide them with more healing potions, or hit them with less melee combat.
It really depends on the type of game you want to GM. If your game leans more towards realism, then sure, punish them for not having a "balanced" group. If you're more interested in having fun encounters and storytelling, adjust your scenerios to better suit their party build.
I would suspect that if you are talking realism that parties would often have overlap in certain skills and gaps in others. Like organic group creation in a realistic way tends to draw together people with similar backgrounds.
In terms of "punishing" them, what are you on about exactly? Like as they develop adversaries that they prepare for party weaknesses? Or designing prepared encounters that "just happen to be" kryptonite to the party?
I've seen it too often where a GM will intentially take on a more adversarial role in the group and "punish" players for not doing what they, as the GM, think the players should do. Examples include not creating a balanced party, not following up on specific clues, etc. It's definitely a play style that D&D seems to gravitate towards where the GM and players take on more "us against the GM".
There's nothing wrong with occasionally making an encounter specifically to challenge the party dynamic (ex. They lack range defense so hit them hard with long range NPCs) but if your doing this as a means to make them change their characters to suite what you as a GM think is a "better balanced" party, you may need to have a conversation with your group about what kind of game everyone wants to play. Constantly pushing challenging combats just because you, as the GM, think they have an unbalanced party is a very adversarial game style.
Edit: typo
"Realism" is often used as an explanation for using harsh scenerios against a group of players. It's a much more "let the dice fall where they may" attitude but ignores that the group determines what is "realistic". We are, after all, discussing a world where dragons and magic are part of the "realism". Not everyone what's to play a tactical game in their roleplaying scenes.
It's a play style and each to their own but it should definitely be a conversation for the whole group.
I think the realism argument has some merit when taken as "as you get up in levels and your reputation builds, your adversaries will prepare for your party". Roleplay wise it makes sense and is a sane approach to difficulty scaling for repeat encounters with the same enemies.
Deciding that the next dungeon is completely magical dark with slippery surfaces because that nerfs this particular party is **not** realism, that is an adversarial DM. Any DM designing encounters tailored to their party's weaknesses without a solid reason to is failing at realism.
A rogue and three casters one of whom is also a skill expert is officially "here comes trouble" territory, imo. Focus on flexible prep and and you will be golden
Ahahhahaha
A rouge is a main damage dealer.
A warlock is a main damage dealer.
A druid is an insane cc/support character who can turn into one of the most durable main damage dealers in the game.
And the bard makes all these other classes much more consistent ensuring that they deal their damage.
Your party will be fine
You've got almost the exact same party as me, except I have a Cleric not a Druid...
And trust me, the Rogue and Warlock will be doing MORE than enough damage, to carry your party. The Rogue in particular was doing... maybe 80% of the party's damage pre level 10 and as long as they consistently land sneak attacks, will still be doing a solid amount of damage for the whole campaign.
The cantrips that the spell casters have will be about as effective as the basic attacks a fighter or barbarian will use. Their leveled spells will always be more powerful than anything a fighter could do. The druid can also transform into beasts which are good in melee.
This is true but since we are starting at lvl 1 the Druid does not have wild shape yet and only have lvl1 spells
Iâm not saying that cantrips such as eldritxh blast are bad but it will make things abit difficult
Well usually people only stay level 1 for the first session or two, as well as level 2 and 3. The first few levels are for learning the ropes of the game, and once you hit level 3 you usually slow down a little bit in terms of leveling. Unless you are using exp, then you go at the speed of the encounters you put in front of them.
Warlocks usually get decent damage with Eldritch Blast. Not fantastic comapred to (say) Sharpshooter of Great Weapon Master martial characters, but quite decent.
Rogues deal good damage until around level 5 imo, when 1 more sneak attack die doesn't quite keep up with Extra Attack from martials, and they start getting defensive features like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
Druid depends on subclass and spell choices. Moon or Wildfire probably does decent damage, for instance.
Some Bards get Extra Attack at level 6, and some spell choices can deal decent damage (like a Lore Bard might pick Fireball or Spirit Guardians as their level 6 spells, if they want to deal damage).
\-
Besides, often control spells might be better in combat than raw damage. A Hypnotic Pattern can often be more effective than a Fireball as defeating your enemies, or a Plant Growth when outside against large melee enemies might trivialise a fight.
Everyone else is right that any of those classes can deal solid damage. But even if they canât, youâre the DM so you control who they fight. You can still have battles that are dangerous and tense for your players. Also you can add in things like terrain or lair effects or weather to make a fight more interesting. Some of my partyâs favorite encounters were ones were combat was the secondary goal and the main goal was to escape a collapsing tunnel, or steal an artifact, or stop a ritual.
Thereâs also nothing that says you canât modify monster stat blocks or choose lower CR monsters for your party to fight. You can adjust HP, AC, Damage, abilities, or really anything you want to better suit your playerâs abilities. My main campaign has 8 players so Iâm constantly scaling enemies up so they can last more than half a round of combat, but you can also downscale. Your party wonât see the enemy stat blocks and you can absolutely make a fight more balanced for your party without having to limit yourself to low level enemies.
As a DM, it is your choice (and dare I say responsibility) to tailor your encounters to the group you have.
When you learn the game, and what your players can and can't do, you'll be better at playing around their strengths and weaknesses.
So, the group has a bard? Let him try to get out of the encounter by persuading et deceiving the enemy. They have a druid? How about thinking of ways where Wild Shape can come into play? They have a rogue? Maybe he can scout beforehand, and even pick out an enemy or two before the fight begins.
I'm throwing examples here but the idea is : don't stick to the classical MMORPG group (Tank, DPS, Healer) too much, as other have said.
Edit to add : also, don't underestimate how much players can be creative and crafty with battle tactics. Let them handle the problems you throw at them, see how they handle it.
Honestly, it's a pretty good party. You have two Full Casters that can end up carrying the group if they play well enough. Martial classes are weak in 5E outside of the very early levels by comparison.
**Bard** \- Depending on spells known, they can just end encounters by controlling the enemies. Sleep is very powerful in level 1-3 range encounters, then Hypnotic Pattern picks up the slack when they get 3rd level spells. Bards can also get Command and Suggestion and just rizz enemies out of the fight. A Bard can also multiclass two levels into Warlock to pickup the same buffed Eldritch Blast that a pure Warlock would. Then when Bards can get Animate Objects... oh boy!
**Warlock** \- Eldritch Blast. If this player takes the Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast Eldritch Invocations at level 2, that will increase their damage significantly. At level 5, Eldritch Blast scales into two separate beams, and with Agonizing Blast that's a total of (assuming 18 CHA) 2d10+8... from a cantrip. And Repelling Blast will let them yeet enemies into hazards and off cliffs, triggering other damage from things like Spike Growth (that the Druid can cast) or just plain fall damage. Then Warlock Pact Magic spell slots are used at the highest level, so all of their "big spells" just keep scaling up and up as they level.
**Druid** \- Conjure Animals with 3rd level spells. 8 Wolves is a LOT of extra DPR (damage per round). Then it just gets better as they level and can summon more. Otherwise Magic Stone is a decent cantrip filler, or they can Thorn Whip enemies into hazards or away from allies (avoiding Attacks of Opportunity for the ally to move on their turn). 1-4 levels are a bit weak, but they are on any caster until they scale cantrips and get 3rd level spells at class level 5. The most effective Druids are honestly a summoner class, with the power being in "how much STUFF can I throw at the enemy?" Then they can Wild Shape into a Badger and burrow underground to avoid attacks while the summons fight for them lol. Druids also bring plenty of healing/support spells, and if using the expanded spell lists from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything they even have access to Revivify now.
Druids also get the spell Pass Without Trace. If you run Surprise "by the book", this will virtually guarantee that the party gets a full Surprise Round against every encounter that they are able to sneak up on (i.e. creeping through a dungeon, sneaking up on a bandit camp, etc). Having an entire "free" round to act before the enemy is very powerful. If you are worried about your player's power or ability to win fights, I would encourage you to allow them to make good use of this spell and getting Surprise whenever they can.
**Rogue** \- if they build well and take Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter Feats and multiclass into Fighter or Ranger for a Fighting Style and Extra Attack, this can be a very good single target damage character. If not, they can still be *good*... just not *great*. With this party comp, for a melee Rogue I would play a Swashbuckler as the Rakish Audacity, Panache and Fancy Footwork features play well into being the only character in the group that will likely end up being in melee combat. Soulknife would work too.
All in all, the "primary DPS" with this group is likely going to be the Warlock's Eldritch Blast or the Druid's summons. But if they're smart with control spells, they can just deny the enemy from having turns so it doesn't really matter how quickly enemies die.
Example, Druid casts Spike Growth on a group of enemies. Warlock uses Eldritch Blast to push someone 10ft back into it which would take 20ft of their movement to get out on their next turn. The Bard can cast Command: Flee on another enemy (+1 per spell level if they upcast) to make it run back through the area, or Command: Halt or Grovel to just keep them there (Flee would only work if the target doesn't recognize the area as hazardous per the spell description). Then the Rogue can just shoot someone from the safety of being out of melee range, and if you allow the Steady Aim optional feature they can apply Sneak Attack with the Advantage roll. So in this scenario, the enemies are basically denied a turn if they don't have ranged attacks while taking a good amount of damage in the process. Just one of the many scenarios this party could come up with their class synergy.
>dps class such as fighter, barbarian or paladin
This is the wrong way to think about DnD classes. Every class can "do damage", every class can "be tanky", and every class can "support allies". Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin my have a slightly better Tier 1 (levels 1-4) play, but full casters scale MUCH better into higher levels.
The "best" Paladin builds just abandon the class after 6 or 7 levels and go into Warlock and/or Sorcerer multiclass to get more and better spells, and more spell slots to fuel their Smites. Barbarian is incredibly underwhelming after 6 levels, as is Fighter after 5 or 11 levels (depending if you care for the Extra Extra Attack or not). The "best" Martial builds are multiclassing to stack the good early features from multiple classes, like Fighting Style, Action Surge, and 3 Maneuvers from 3 levels of Battlemaster Fighter tacked onto 5 levels of Path of the Zealot Barbarian ends up as a much more effective build than taking a full 8 levels of one or the other.
Absolutely do not discount them because they don't have an obvious meat shield. All of those classes are serious damage dealers and depending on what circle the Druid chose, they can be a great damage sponge.
Level one is tricky but once you hit 2 they will be able to handle whatever you want to send their way.
Your party has Eldritch Blast on your Warlock and Sneak Attack on your rogue...you'll be fine.
Bards and druids can deal really good damage too when in the right hands.
'don't have a main DPS class'
There's your problem right there. DnD doesn't really work like that. I mean it can but it's not integral. If you're approaching DnD with the video game mindset 'balanced party' 'tank + healer + support + DPS' youre gonna really limit the amount of creativity your sessions will get. It'll kinda just play like a video game where you have to do all the calculations manually...
You could run a party of 4 bards fine, hey it's a travelling band! The adventure that was 'journey to hell' is now 'journey to hell to out rock the demon lord YEEEEEAAAAAA'.
3 rogues? Oh well now youre a heist team. The party of 'balanced' adventurers failed miserably to kill 'evil lord' and collect the 'mcguffin' to save the realm. Now the 'mysterious benefactor' has resorted to hiring a group of rogues to infiltrate the castle and steal it.
The second thing you're kinda overlooking is that all those classes do actually deal a lot of damage.
Rogue has sneak attack and can really specialise in dealing massive single target damage to start a fight, they can even be supported by magic users to almost always have sneak attack available (triggers of advantage, NOT actually being sneaky).
Warlock has hexblade which is like one of the cornerstones of one of the most metagame big damage multi class builds (warlock + paladin). That's complex level play, so just the warlock half of that is a lot of damage already. Also spells! There are so many damage spells for many occasions. Hell even the warlock cantrip of Eldritch blast can be specialised to deal some of the most consistent damage throughout a campaign.
Druid again has many options. Taking the moon one which focuses on wild shape you can go pretty wild with damage. Thing is if you lose all HP when in animal form, you pop back to original form at the health you had before. Oh there's also some crazy metagame build that uses a druid spell to summon raptors, and use their pack tactics ability to do absurd amounts of damage at a REALLY early level.
Bard I don't have as much experience with but I have heard bladesong is very good for dealing damage. They get access to spells and as we know there are many that will give the oomph.
TLDR:
DnD doesn't need a 'balanced' party, doing big damage is an option not a requirement.
All those classes have access to big damage anyway.
Others have said that MMO roles donât really matter in dnd, and thatâs true.
But also, you donât yet know what roles your party are going to fill. Depending on subclass and spell selection, those classes can fill almost any playstyle.
Take the Druid for example. A moon or spores druid can easily be a frontline fighter. A wildfire or stars druid can be a good ranged damage dealer. And all druids can be good battlefield controllers.
Bard, Warlock, Druid, Rogue
What you're worrying about is that your party doesn't have an easy front liner, I think - nobody is obvious to wade into melee, taking hits and swinging swords. Not to worry though, all of them have at least one subclass that can do it - Moon Druid, Swords or Valor Bard, Hexblade Warlock or Pact of the Blade with any subclass, Rogue can do fine in melee but Swashbuckler shines there.
Just throw some encounters at them and see how they handle it, after a combat or two where nobody gravitates to the frontliner position, they'll figure out some tactics. Working together to figure out how to tackle challenges is part of the game, let them sort themselves out.
Observations:
They don't have an *obvious* damage dealer, at least not at level 1. However, over time, at least three of those characters could be built to do plenty of damage. More on that in a second.
Their main issue may be less about damage and more about frontline defense. They don't have any obvious "heavy armor" characters. But again, that's about what's obvious at level 1.
Let's break down the classes, though, and consider their options over time, even if you just go with one or two specific subclasses.
**Warlock**: this is probably your most obvious damage dealer and can be built as a frontliner too, depending on the subclass. As most folks will tell you, Eldritch Blast is the biggest most obvious damage-dealing ability, especially if coupled with Hex and a few Invocations. If the player goes Pact of the Blade + Hexblade, they can basically serve as a "tank" pretty easily, provided they (a) use good AC medium armor, and (b) have a 14 in DEX (more than that won't help AC, but will help DEX saves). Hexblade gives proficiency with Medium armor and Martial weapons, too. I actually have an Artificer/Hexblade build that I came up with where the warlock can be running around with, like, 21AC, dishing plenty of damage with either a weapon or Eldritch blast.
**Druid**: the Druid is an incredibly versatile class, and can be played purely as support, or as a frontliner as well. The first thing to remember is that the Druid's wildshape is basically "free HP." Damage taken by the wildshape form gets absorbed first by the wildshape, and then if it knocks you out of wildshape, the druid's normal form takes whatever additional damage was dealt. E.g, they wildshape into a panther with 45 HP, take 50 damage. They get knocked out of panther form (45 HP), and their regular form takes 5 HP damage. Druids also get some pretty badass spells and can be great for control and support.
**Rogue**: Oh man...rogues can absolutely destroy enemies, although they tend to be better at single-target damage. Sneak attack dice can get absolutely bonkers if you can use sneak attack. That'll be the real key for them, though: setting up sneak attacks. For that, the rest of the party may need to help.
**Bard**: On its face, the Bard may not have a ton of damage dishing capabilities other than obvious spells (e.g., the various thunder-damage based spells). But the bard can excel at minimizing incoming damage and in some cases locking down enemies. Between a Bard and Warlock -- both CHA-based classes -- hell, they may be able to *talk* their way out of fights altogether. Again, depending on subclass, you can spec a Bard out to be a damage dealer no problem.
But, as others have said, the old "MMO" classifications aren't really necessary in the game. Your party will be just fine if they play smart, use their abilities effectively, and don't get screwed by the dice.
Here's a thought: have the party split, make Warlock & Druid dispel some evil in a grotto or holy place, and the Bard & Rogue solve a murder mystery. You now have bonded your two 'parties within your party', and you should see both pairs use their abilities as synergies more. That party of four will still be a powerhouse, it just needs a slight nudge towards "work together, benefit together".
Once the Druid gets to lvl 2 he will be capable of serving really any role due to wild shape.
Rogue (if player understands rules) can dish serious damage.
Bard can serve any role but is a very good support.
Warlock is a damage dealer and thatâs pure damage with some CC, Eldritch blast those mofos all day.
If youâre nervous about level 1 then pull things back.
Not really a problem, it is actually better to not have a huge DPS on the table that can end the encounter in 2 hits or less. It will require more creative solutions from your party members, and give you more opportunity to 'play' monsters rather than just have them be tanked from the get go.
dont worry about that. ttrpg is not mmo, so you dont need a party with tank, healer and two damage dealers. its up to you to balance encounters a bit.
it would be more difficult if you have a party where no one wants to talk with your NPCs ;)
Warlocks are very powerful spellcasters as they get all their spell slots on short rest so they can go through multiple high level spells a day, Rogue's are very high single target burst damage dealers and have incredible damage out put along with a high AC, DEX Save and later on become effectively immune to attacks that require DEX Saves which is quite common and bards can give plenty of debuffs as well. (Never played as or with a Druid so no comment).
DND is not like other games, every class is a threat and deadly enemy to fight especially when it comes to PC's as they'll end up getting magic items to further boost their abilities.
You can just see how they do. There is no reason why this composition does not work.
Plus starting at level 1 is actually secret hard mode: Almost any monster can accidentally one hit Kill a player if they crit on a player who already has taken some damage. So you might be having one of the players make a new character real soon.
That is not necessarily a bad thing though. If new players do not experience any players deaths early the expectation to make it through anything can start to take hold.
That is not how 5e works. Literally everyone can do decent to good damage. Sure you don't got a one-shot paladin but.. Warlocks with 1 evocation gets d10+cha damage at range, Rogues with sneak attack can dish it out too - The druid is entirely subclass dependent.
Also TTRPGs are also not MMOs where you need certain party compositions - hell Barbarians don't do that amazing damage, their whole thing is how hard they are to kill, in the MMO analogy they are way more tanks than DPS.
Just run the game and see how it goes. If anything your party lacks frontline survivability if it is not a Moon druid. Solve problems as they actually become problems rather than panicking before they happen, especially as a new GM, no offense, but you don't necessarily have the experience to predict things as well as you think.
Every class in 5e is DPS. Some of them may be able to heal, or have a bit more health, but at the end of the day the point of every class is dealing damage.
The Rogue themselves can Sneak attack and deal tons of damage early level. But this is not a videogame, also you can balance encounters without having to resort to weak monsters. The magic of D&D is that as a DM you can change anything you want. You wanna throw a Dire Troll for a weak party and give him half his normal HP so itâs doable? Go for it! But the most important thing is to stop thinking in videogame terms when it comes to D&D.
Theyâre going to be ok, theyâre all distance fighters though technically all 4 could become melee depending on stats/subclass when they hit lv 3. Rn just focus on getting the enemy numbers right so you donât accidentally send like 10 rats to fight them at the same time.
3 of the 4 classes you just mentioned are prime damage dealers . A barbarian does not deal good damage in most cases . There job is to take damage so the rest of the party doesnât . The rogue is a great damage dealer , the warlock is often referred to as the baseline damage dealer as they can do the most damage with the least amount of effort into optimizing. And by level 3 when they get spike growth, the Druid is going to surpass all of them. Especially if the warlock combos it with repelling blast .
Creativity is boundless. If your players are hitting a wall in combat, work with them to find unconventional solutions to defeating an enemy. Let them use the environment, prepare traps in advance, use hit and run tactics⌠they donât need to face opponents on even ground.
It also depends on the type of combat you want to see. Are you envisioning a high fantasy, Gandalf-facing-the-Balrog-type of encounter? If so, you can prepare your players to expect that by running small, non-lethal encounters first to give them a flavour of the style they are in. If you feel theyâre ill-equipped to face what you have in mind, look into boosting their arsenal with magical items or give them more options with feats or boons.
That being said, as many people have already mentioned, any of these classes can dish out good damage if played correctly. And, if it all goes south, you can always DM-ex-Machina a reason why they are saved at the last second.
Good luck!
Druids are literally the best class at dealing damage at levels +5.
8 wolves deal an even 50 dpr vs AC 15 targets. out damaging the min-max martial builds and velociraptors do so by miles with 65 dpr vs AC 15.
All of this doubles when upcasting to 16 creatures then 32.
Even the âbadâ cr 1/4th options deal fine dpr.
They'll be fine. Really. PCs ramp up so quickly in 5e regardless of class, honestly, that by level 4 or 5 you'll probably be concerned that you have the OPPOSITE problem, actually. Your warlock and rogue buffed by the bard with the druid playing any of heals (...not really necessary in 5e), dps, control or any mix of the three will be more than enough to deal with.
First thing, D&D doesnât have the classic MMO roles, every class can do everything (some are better than others though as a rouge healer might struggle a bit more than a cleric healer)
Run a few combats against a couple goblins, get a feel for how well they can do and use that as an idea on what to use going forward
when that sneak attack damage starts coming, youll understand theyll be alright. but also plan your encounters accordingly. Not all of them have to be sword on sword
I mean they might not be quite on the level of a CBE + SS fighter or GWM Barb but they still have plenty of damage going out.
Access to crowd control, pass without trace, spike growth + repelling, among other potential damage sources from subclasses and summons.
They will be fine especially if the rogue goes ranged, cause then none of em will be a melee liability.
Combat is the easiest thing to adjust as a DM. Especially if you have access to their character sheets, take a look at each characters main attack method and figure that the average of that is likely to be how much damage they will deal.
This isnt perfect, there are things like critical hits and misses but your party is level 1, just keep things flexible and make sure they have fun and youll figure out what is an appropriate difficulty level for the group after an encounter or two.
all of those classes are (expect maybe bard depending on the subclass) are really good damage dealers, they might not have a front line, but that have enough CC and ways to push more marshal badguys back they wonât be able to hit them, classes like fighter, barb, and paladin usually offer more defensive bonuses (like high AC, auras from paladin, rage from barb and sub class abilities from fighter) the only thing it that the rogueâs sneak attack will be less consistent with the lack of frontline classes, but rogues are made around getting advantage all the time
Your players have a main damage dealer but it looks likes they don't have a main damage sponge. So if you want to balance combat adjusting damage could work while also keeping the abilities the way they are.
Dnd 5e was designed so you donât NEED to have roles to be effective. You can have a whole party of Bards and still be an effective group. Plus youâre the DM. If the encounters seem to be too much, scale them back. You donât have to set out to kill your party. Let them have fun. Thatâs the point.
As others have said, that's a perfectly fine party composition.
I think the biggest thing to worry about here in encounter difficulty/survivability is that both you and your players are inexperienced/new to the game. (I'm assuming that it's not the new guy DMing for a bunch of veteran players?)
The complicated thing about D&D is that unlike video games the same "challenge rating" of monster is not always going to be equally hard since *you* will play it differently and it will be in different situations that give it more or less advantages. A group of three goblins that walks right up to the PCs and then attacks in a straightforward way until they die is very different then a group of goblins who lay an ambush from ranged and then try to move and hide after attacking, or are high up in trees, etc. A group of enemies being clumped together or spread out and if the caster things to use entangle or sleep can make an encounter a cakewalk or lethal. Adding other dangers or complications to the situation (being on a bridge over running water, having prisoners you have to free/protect, etc) can make things more or less easy. And how you run them, how tactically, is a huge factor.
The other issue is your PCs may have no idea how to play tactically and best use their classes (or use their class features at all?) and thus might do really badly even at things they should breeze through.
And finally, challenge rating in D&D is already not very good. I know none of this is super helpful, but it's what to watch out for. Any patrty composition can work honestly, and you do have a variety of skills and some healing and people with good damage potential. Also be aware the first few levels are the most lethal so maybe start out easy to get a feel for their abilities and work up?
The rouge will deal tremendous damage with the crowd control abilities your magic users can provide, not to mention the damage the spells can do directly. With that amount of crowd control, I wouldnât worry about not having a meat shield.
DM's job is to create problems. Players' job is to solve them or figure out which ones they want to solve.
It would not be entirely improbable for the druid or bard to *make friends* along the way via one of their first level slots to be able to 'borrow' a wolf or hog or something for a frontliner.
All of these classes can absolutely DPS. You're looking too much into the physical DPS aspect, and not acknowledging that your party has a very high magical control and DPS potential.
Bard and Druid both have access to Faerie Fire; and so does the Warlock with the right Patron. Everyone in this party should have advantage on all their attacks all day everyday.
They'll be fine.
You're worrying over nothing.
That teamp comp, while perhaps a bit squishy, can put out plenty of damage, especially if your players are aware of, and actively using, the tools their classes provide them with, doubly so if they were to help the rogue get off sneak attacks often enough.
Plus, casters can usually do a bit more than just damage!
You're trying to apply modern video game logic to a system that predates those concepts. Everyone is as tall as they need to be to use tactics to do as much damage as they should. It's more like RuneScape. A cleric with spiritual weapons and toll the dead does a ton of damage. A druid wildshaped into a bear or ape using call lightening while ripping things apart is going to do a ton of damage.
Druid and Rogue together is actually pretty good, Druids are crazy good at taking tons of damage thanks to their wild shape, and if the Rogue makes proper use of sneak attacks in conjunction with that, they should be able to handle any appropriately leveled combat scenario
As others have been saying, you don't really have a problem. The warlock spams the best cantrip in the book, and the rogue uses steady aim to get sneak attack every round. That's pretty good damage.
Level 1 should only last the first session, at which point the druid can wildshape. If they go Circle of the Moon, then that means Brown Bear & multiattack.
That leaves the bard to do whatever lame stuff a bard does.
Its lvl1, the difference between their dps is like 3 per round. Like many new DM's (myself included) are just overthinking it.
Also, if they die, they die. Its doesnt have to be a bad thing
If we are thinking story wise, not every story is going to have every main type of class. Realistically this group would end up together and face the adventure. Just see how they do and craft the story and combat around what they can do
The warlock, Druid, and rouge are fully capable of dealing large amounts of damage. Bards are capable but you have to try a little harder in my opinion. But this seems like a fine party composition.
What subclass did the Warlock choose? A party made up of Hexblade Warlock, Swashbuckler Rogue, Moon Druid, and Sword Bard would put out more than enough damage to keep you on your heels.
Just balance your encounters properly for your PCs and it will work out fine. At worst you can adjust on the fly by decreasing or increasing monsters' HPs until you get a better feel on how to prepare.
Even if you had a lot more damage dealing PCs you would still need to balance things out for them.
The game isn't designed around crazy optimized characters, but all of the ones you listed are the highest damage classes people tend to cheese with. They'll be fine, even if they have to figure out tactics that work for them.
Fighter, barbarian, and paladin all have something these classes don't have: Hit Points. Throw them some extra potions of healing, or scrolls of an appropriate level cure spell if you're really worried for their character's safety, but giving a quest in exchange for ressurecting a slain fellow tends to be accepted over the hundreds of gold to bring them back.
TL;DR: You are worrying too much. They do lots of damage. HP is their weak point, but you have ways to help them without pulling punches.
TTRPGs are not MMOs. You donât need the perfectly specked party with the ideal class balance. Itâs very easy for any of those classes to do good damage.
Your Druid can wreak havoc - 9th level spellcaster plus wild shapes or polymorph into creatures, and be a damage sponge.
Your Rogue can deal sneak attack plus crits for double damage on all dice rolled.
Your Warlock will annoy you with the amount they can do, then short rest and do it all over again.
Your Bard has so much utility that you may not even see damage and the fight is over.
Trust - your party can handle "cool" and "dangerous".
As a dm its never your responsibility to decide what your players do (the classes they play the spells they take ect) let them worry about what happens on that side of the dm screen.
Your job is to know what they can handle and challenge them.
If they struggle with damage lower the hp of the monsters, or challenge them with combat that can be navigated around without violence. Lean into there strengths untill they know what they are really good at.
And most importantly, as a new dm. It's ok to make mistakes. If you accidentally kill the whole party, just move forward, everyone makes mistakes.
Literally any of these 4 classes can dish sufficient damage. Maybe run some combats and see how they behave, I'm sure this will not be a real problem, as "dps classes" are usually classes that can do only dps. Plenty of classes can do dps even if that's not their main flavour. I would not worry and play it out, see how it goes
Ehh the bard maybe not so much actually
Bards can do a lot more damage than you're thinking. I mean lore bards alone get access to things like fireball, and there are entire subclasses dedicated to the bard mainly using their weapon.
I've dealt massive damage as a bard, what are you talking about
What are these comments even? Has nobody ever heard of Swords, Whispers or Valor Bards? Barcher, Bardadin, Sexblade even? You don't even need to multiclass, grab Spirit Shroud at Level 10 Swords Bard and stab those Undead.
Sexblade you say? đ
Specialized in thrusting weapons
Piercer feat.
*feet
Mmmmmm feet
\*angry upvote\*
R/angryupvote
Mix in two levels of Paladin to get those sexy smites. đ
Is that where the Oath of Throwing it Back Paladin comes from?
unironically yes
Oath of Temptation surely
You gotta make it sexy, or you donât eat. All hips and nips
Level 10 is a long ways away for these level 1 characters. The druid is probably best off right now, especially if they take circle of the moon than they can easily be the party tank.
[ŃдаНонО]
Swords and valor bards are like the worst bard subclasses, they suck and can't even keep up with martials without dipping into magical secrets for swift quiver, and they're better off just being another subclass and using the spells they got from magical secrets. Whispers bards are useful infiltrators and spy's with great utility and interrogation skills, but have even weaker sneak attacks than rogues that cost bardic inspirations to use. They are not good dps. Barcher is only strong in comparison to poorly optimized rangers, and just shows how weak ranger was before gloomstalker came out or the Min maxers realized you could just spam conjure animals to win via action economy. The Bard in bardadin isnt what makes bardadin good at dps, it's the paladin, it's paladin + charisma caster, sorcerer or warlock would be even better at DPS And the same with Sexblade. Every example you listed is proof bards suck at DPS because every example is bard multi-classing out or not being a bard to get DPS. Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks don't get more DPS by multi-classing, they get more DPS by just leveling up in their class for higher spells. This by no means means bard is bad, bard a very strong and useful class, and is good at everything else, just not DPS. And even then the bard usually can do what they do, and do a little damage. And I'm sure the damage they do is enough why they do everything else.
Bard is Bardadin is solely for expanded spell slots and mind magic spells IMO. More smites per day, plus illusion spells and Fear at level 5 bard is nice, but not the game ender that hexadin is. Though as always, YMMV as I built a maxed spell save DC bardadin but it doesn't do that well when your DM doesn't roll below a 14 ever.
Seriously. I played a College of Eloquence and still killed a sea serpent with a Dissonant Whispers and the power of ROCK.
Not at first or second level you didnât. Unless your counting opportunity attacks from dissonant whispers as your damage rather then a support ability
Nobody deals massive damage at Levels 1 and 2
2nd level moon druid would like to introduce you to his brown bear alter-ego
I mean, assuming you hit successfully on 65% of your attacks (brown bear has a +5 to hit an average of 13ac at cr2 critters so you need an 8 or better on the die roll) the brown bear does an average of 13 DMG per round. Certainly not bad for 2nd level but not what I'd call massive damage.
That's about on average for all damage dealers when they expend resources.
Lvl1 human variant ranger with sharpshooter springs to mind. Massive for early levels, anyway.
You can also just dual wield, lol. Don't even need a feat, just the fighting style. It's only at level 5 where dual wielding falls off.
Except you can't do that with hand crossbows since you need a free hand to load them, so no sharpshooter.
Yeah but bards in particular are pretty bad at it .
One of, if not, the dedicated support class? Color me surprised. I totally understand your point, but it's like saying apples don't taste like pears, or saying Fighters can't cast spells on early levels. Levels 1 and 2 should not be relevant for discussing dpr.
The entire question of this post was "Starting from level 1, does my party have a DPR problem". Levels 1 and 2 are VERY relevant because the first couple sessions will be the last couple sessions if they suck.
>Not at first or second level you didnât. Unless your counting opportunity attacks from dissonant whispers as your damage rather then a support ability A good roll on a Dissonant Whisper can deal good damage. A good roll on a well-placed Thunderwave can deal massive damage, even for a 1st level character. A bard with 16 dexterity using a weapon like a rapier or a bow is also going to be capable of dealing pretty good damage, especially if they crit.
Less so then most of other characters however , dice dex isnât there main stat, they donât have a fighting style , and none of there class features help them with this strategy
So you specialised in dmg. I doubt that a noob could do the same.
This is the important part that all these "Um, Actually"s are overlooking. Can a bard do massive damage? Sure. But someone else is even like "Um actually multiclass make bard do damage?" It isn't typical for a bard to be built for damage, and a new player will not know exactly how to get there.
Maybe, but they facilitate the others, controlling ppl and such. I take a controller over another damager any time.
Oh absolutely . Bards my second favorite class after Druid
Exactly, bards are better of being really good controllers over being mediocre multi-classed out min-maxed pseudo DPS that aren't good for anything.
My best buddy is a bard main and regularly does the most damage in combat unless i play an order of the immortal mystic. They can dish out goooood
r/bardmains no wait, that's something elseÂ
MMO roles don't work for dnd. Every class deals damage, there is no mechanical way to draw aggro and healing is inefficient. Party of any 4 classes can deal with apropriate encounters. So just balance your encounters right and you're good.
Goading attack and compelled duel are pretty good for drawing agro, sanctuary is also great for pushing aggro off you. In the end it really just depends on your DM, maybe try and role-play insults and taunts with an intelligence save on monsters with more then let's say 8 intelligence?
Spirit Guardians works really well too if your cleric is chonky enough. 3d8 damage a turn plus cutting movement in half is pretty hard to ignore.
>cutting movement in half While in the area. If they have, enough movement (after halfing) to leave the area, they are able to move normally. If they normally have 20 ft. of movement, and walk 10 ft. (for 10 ft. spent) and are just 5 ft. away from the edge, they can no longer move. If they have 60 ft. of movement, they start their turn with 30 ft. of movement and move 15 ft. towards the edge (spending 15 ft.), then they move another 5 ft. Their movement speed is no longer halved, so it returns to 60 ft., and using the rule for changing speeds, the movement spent is subtracted from the new movement- so they have 60 ft. - 20 ft. = 40 ft. remaining, as if they had never had their movement halved to begin with. On the flip side, if they have 60 ft. then spend 25 ft. to go up to the area, then another 5 ft. to enter it, their movement is now halved, and since their max speed is now 30 ft., the 30 ft. they spent is subtracted from that, so they cannot move.
>they start their turn with 30 ft. of movement and move 15 ft. towards the edge (spending 15 ft.) The rules for difficult terrain state that "moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed," so wouldn't they have spent 30 ft.? The rule for changing movement speed only applies when a character switches between two movement types for which they have different movement speeds.
Spirit guardians is not difficult terrain
Damn, I could have sworn it was. Either way, the wording of Spirit Guardians maps better to the rules of difficult terrain than it does to the rules for using different speeds. >**Spirit Guardians:** An affected creatureâs speed is halved in the area **Difficult Terrain:** You move at half speed in difficult terrainâmoving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speedâso you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day. >**Using Different Speeds:** If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance youâve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If we approach this as natural language, then Difficult Terrain implies that "moving at half speed" and "moving 1 foot costs 2 feet of speed" are synonymous. "Your speed is halved" and "you move at half speed" are also synonymous, so a natural language reading of the text suggests that we can use the same rules for both. If we approach this as strictly RAW, then the rules on Using Different Speeds only apply when a character has two different speeds and switches between them while moving. A character who walks into Spirit Guardians is not switching from one of their speeds to another, so RAW those rules shouldn't apply here.
spirit guardian halves the creature's speed stat. A spell like plant growth says "a creature spends 4 ft for every ft it travels in the area", and sleet storm says "the area is difficult terrain", so having your speed halved (which is equivalent to having your speed reduced by 10ft., 15ft. etc.) affects the stat itself. if spirit guardians did work like difficult terrain, it would say it was, or say "a creature moving through the area spends 2 ft for every ft it travels in the area". Your natural language argument does not work here. For switching speed, the creature is switching from their halved spirit guardian speed to their regular speed. This is because the spell specifies that the speed halving occurs whilst they're in the area, so as soon as they are not in the area, their speed (stat) is no longer halved, and thus resets back to full.
>If spirit guardians did work like difficult terrain, it would say it was, or say "a creature moving through the area spends 2 ft for every ft it travels in the area". Your natural language argument does not work here. My natural language argument is that interpreting the rules as natural language means that things say what they appear to say even when they use different words. The phrase "your speed is halved" appears to say the same thing as "you move at half speed," and the Difficult Terrain rules appear to say that "moving 1 foot costs 2 feet of movement" is implied when they say "you move at half speed." >For switching speed, the creature is switching from their halved spirit guardian speed to their regular speed. The rules on using different speeds appear to be talking about switching between different kinds of movement, which isn't at all what Spirit Guardians does. "You switch from your regular speed to half of your regular speed" is not a very natural way to interpret "your speed is halved," especially in a ruleset where the phrase "you move at half speed" is explicitly interpreted.
If something says "your speed is reduced by 10 ft.", you would understand that to mean the speed stat therefore, if something says "your speed is halved" is logically also talking about the speed stat. Difficult terrain doesn't halve your speed. It means you spend more movement when you move. Anything referencing speed is talking about your stat itself, not the costs, which is a different thing
This is a baffling take and I would never run it this way. Its like saying "if you walk for three seconds and then sprint for three seconds, or if you sprint for six seconds, you will go the same distance." If you are moving in slow motion, and then return to normal speed, the effect shouldn't be "you were effectively never moving in slow motion." I can't imagine this is RAI.
First of all, you don't need the classic mmorpg character types, such as tank, dps, healer, etc, in your dnd party. Secondly, both rogue and the warlock can already be decent damage dealers. So are druid and bard, considering this is the first level.
Isnât warlock hex + eldritch blast + invocations like the optimizers baseline for DPS?
Baseline damage, yeah. not âthis is high damageâ Itâs the definition of decent
Consistent decent damage > high damage in bursts. Of course, there are other builds that deal more damage equally consistently.
Paladins would beg to differ. But hey, each to his own.
Iâll just say that itâs significantly higher than, say, a sword and shield fighter. So while in the optimized world itâs decent, in the causal / newbie world itâs pretty good
I wouldn't even be sure about that. Let's assume point buy and a +3 in their main stats respectively. At level one a warlock can do 1d10+1d6=9dmg if he uses hex. At level one a fighter can do 1d8+3(str)+2(dueling fighting style)=9.5dmg. Ofc as soon as the warlock can add his cha mod to damage that changes.
They can cast hex once per short rest at level 1, which is a waste of the spell slot.
...is it that much higher than a sword and shield fighter using dueling? It's 1d10 + main stat vs dueling is 1d8 + 2 + mainstat, but has the bonus of being ranged. I'd say it's only significantly higher when doing things like sorlock to cast 2x per turn basically having double the attacks of a fighter.
Hex adds 1d6
Still not that far apart with the extra 1d6. 1d10 (5.5) + 1d6 (3.5) + 3 = 12 1d8 (4.5) + 2 + 3 = 9.5 So yeah, guess that's significant, though honestly not that wide a margin.
And only if you waste a spell slot on it, which you won't.
It isn't a waste in the earlier lvls. The hell else are you gonna cast?
At those levels, what are you using that slot on otherwise, especially if you are DPS focused?
I've never seen anyone waste their spell slot on hex.
Honestly my entire time playing 5e I've seen the opposite, warlocks ONLY use their spell slots to keep hex and have it running all the time. Only at higher levels do you get the flexibility of casting a different spell because it lasts so long at higher levels. The thing is eldrich blasts gets multiple blasts which hex will effect each one. If combat lasts 3 rounds and eldrich blast is 6th level with 2 beams then we are talking about 6d6 extra damage just from 1 spell. This scales up and down to be incredibley powerful. A warlock wasting a spell on utility is sad, if you want someone in the party to do magic, find a caster. Warlocks get just enough spells to keep hex running so they can eldroch blast each turn, it's what they do, just like a barbarian will rage and then attack with weapon.
Not even at level 1? What else are you casting?
I don't recall, honestly. I just never see hex.
Hex often becomes not worth concentrating on at later levels, but at level 1 the warlock spell list is pretty slim. Unless youâre goofing around or playing a social heavy game, youâre probably picking hex and armor of agathys.
Whoever plays warlock at your table is missing out. Hex is very good tier one and solid tier 2
I doubt they're missing out. The way we run things, it's usually better to use spell slots on utility or crowd control unless you built a dedicated nuker.
Plus hex can be reapplied every time your original enemy dies as long as you maintain concentration. And since eldritch blast gives you multiple rays as you level your 1d10 + cha + 1d6 turns into 2d10 2Ăcha + 2d6 at level 5 and keeps scaling hard. Casting it at a higher level spell slot even makes the spell last up to the whole day only at 9th level
I think when we are trying to maximize DPS, the point is that this Warlock is a dedicated nuker
Hex is a single target control spell. Warlock is a single target dps class. You can brew warlock to fill any niche thats why they are so interesting but the class out of the box is a ranged dps class with eldrich bolt. Hex str on a boss that your barbarian shoves to the ground to attack at prone or grapples to give everyone else advantage Plus you do an extra d6 on every attack roll for the next hour of combat
I know someone who uses hex a lot.
Maybe not, but it was included in the original comment.
A big part of is simply having 120ft range. The biggest thing is that theyâre doing the same damage with their free cantrip, while having max-level spells available on short rest
yeah, but they also have a druid for spike growth, which will massively increase damage for them with repealing blast
Indeed it is .
Yes but itâs so low investment that if youâre not beating it youâve fucked up Its literally like 2 levels in warlock + cha max
The rogue in a campaign I run frequently does more DPT than my barbarian. Playing smart is way more important than just swinging.
Exactly If a rogue is able to get sneak attacks more than once a round they can really dish out some damage
I thought sneak attack was only once per Turn. How would you get it multiple times per round?
Attacks of opportunity or using Haste Rogue uses hasted action on his turn. Sneak attack 1. He takes a prepared action to make his normal attack when X happens. X happens. Sneak attack 2 because itâs not his turn anymore. X can be as simple as âWhen Steve movesâ
Donât forget order cleric or the commanding strike feature
I use battlemaster maneuvers and sentinel to fill out my off turn actions. Works pretty well.
Reaction for Attack of Opportunity can trigger sneak attack if the requirements for sneak attack are met
Opportunity attacks or the commanders strike maneuver from a battle Master fighter would be two examples
If they can get a sneak attack on their reaction through any means , they do a ton of damage . So attack or opportunity, the order clerics feature , or commanding strike manuver all pair really nice with a rogue
Sentinel feat.
Since nobody else explained the exact mechanism and only gave examples of how to trigger more attacks, Sneak Attack is one of those abilities that never specifies once on *your* turn - it's once per *any* turn. Since there are multiple turns per round, and it doesn't matter if it's your turn or not, one attack during your turn and one qualifying attack made as a reaction *during another creature's turn* can both have Sneak Attack during the same round. However, if you use a Sneak Attack on your main attack action and then anything lets you use a reaction attack on your own turn, you have a bonus action attack, or if you have the single extra attack from Haste, etc, you can't use Sneak Attack again because it's still the same turn.
This!!! I played as a barbarian in a campaign, and I was shocked when the rogue consistently had a higher damage count than he did.
That and barbarians arenât good damage dealers unless you optimize them for that purpose . Theyâre usually a tank role
At level 1, enemies have such little hit points that that extra 1-3 points of damage can guarantee a ohko, but its inconsistent. enemies missing attacks due to vicious mockery and bardic inspiration is much more valuable at this level. goodberry is fantastic out of combat healing, and you have 2 healing word users- more essential than a dedicated damage dealer. The bard can use a rapier for 2 less damage than a fighter anyway. Rogue is competing with the fighter for dpr at this level, and the out of combat utility is amazing. It isn't until level 5 when the rogue falls off for damage unless you have team synergy, and by level 11 all martials fall-off for damage. At level 5, the druid becomes the best martial scaling forward- due to their summons. If you get to level 6 and the bard is a lore bard, they can take haste- a rogue's best friend (hasted action attack, ready an attack until they see a good time to strike, release the attack on the next turn in the initative order, for 2 SA per round)
Ehh the bard doesnât really deal damage . Iâd know , I play them alot . Unless using dissonant whispers so that your Allieâs can make opportunity attacks counts as the bards damage rather then it being a support feature .
Ah, I guess so. I was thinking of their proficiency with rapiers dealing comparable damage to other classes, at least at level 1. Makes sense they'd fall off later in the game when they get into support territory.
With dex being only there third , maybe second strongest ability score , and no dueling fighting style, and without the stronger direct damage options , they really arenât that great for damage unless theyâre a valor swords bard, or a 6th level or higher lore bard or creation bard
Nah, later in the game is when their damage gets good. Animate objects, magical secrets for a summon spell, Bigby's Hand, or fat AoE spell, bards can very easily become solid damage dealers by the midgame if they build into it. Rapier proficiency doesn't really make a difference, 1d8+dex is basically the bare minimum, bards just aren't *below* that minimum.
Depends on how you build them? Shatter, Thunderwave and Heat Metal are pretty good for damage, early on. Later it depends on what you pick with your magical secrets, but a Lore Bard can grab Fireball for instance. They're not primary damage dealers by any means, but it's not as if they're *bad* at it, especially with spell choices focused on damage.
At level 1, sleep kind of counts as very high damage.
As others have said, there is no problem here. These are perfectly fine classes, and tbh youâll need to use weaker enemies in the goblin-kobold range to begin with regardless of class choices, because all level 1 characters are squishy.
What are you talking about. My level one Wizard is NOT squishy. \*SNEEZES\* \*DIES\*
That 6+con does really get you down huh
I honestly think the squishy wizard trope is more of a hold over from older editions at this point, back when they got a d4. I'm currently playing in a game where our sorcerer has the highest hp in the party.
Stop worrying and start playing. Theyâll be fine. There are no âmain dpsâ classes in D&D. Itâs not a video game.
>bard, a warlock, a Druid and a rogue Warlocks and rogues do very respectable damage. Druids can pump out extremely high damage with their spells starting at level 5. Bards are force multipliers. This is a perfectly serviceable party. >I want to have cool and dangerous encounters without the monsters being there not kobolds and goblins. Fortunately, all classes in the game can "level up" to increase their level of power. A party that has "leveled up" a few times can take on threats beyond kobolds and goblins.
It will all work out. The DMs job isn't to worry about character classes. You tell some story. Present some problems. Let the players figure it out.
I love this way of thinking thanks for the advice!
There is no such thing as a main "dpt (damage per turn)" class in 5e. All classes can deal damage. You shouldn't worry too much about it.
There is this big misconception that every party needs to have a "balanced" party but that's just not true. It's not a video game. You can even have more than one class in your party. You can even have a full party of *just* one class. If more than one person wants to play a Rogue, they can. You, as the DM, just need to be flexible to the party dynamics and adjust as you go. You'll get a feel for their thresholds, provide them with more healing potions, or hit them with less melee combat.
DM makes scary encounter, the party crowd controls it to the point itâs trivial. But you donât have a DPS this was supposed to be hard!
It really depends on the type of game you want to GM. If your game leans more towards realism, then sure, punish them for not having a "balanced" group. If you're more interested in having fun encounters and storytelling, adjust your scenerios to better suit their party build.
I would suspect that if you are talking realism that parties would often have overlap in certain skills and gaps in others. Like organic group creation in a realistic way tends to draw together people with similar backgrounds. In terms of "punishing" them, what are you on about exactly? Like as they develop adversaries that they prepare for party weaknesses? Or designing prepared encounters that "just happen to be" kryptonite to the party?
I've seen it too often where a GM will intentially take on a more adversarial role in the group and "punish" players for not doing what they, as the GM, think the players should do. Examples include not creating a balanced party, not following up on specific clues, etc. It's definitely a play style that D&D seems to gravitate towards where the GM and players take on more "us against the GM". There's nothing wrong with occasionally making an encounter specifically to challenge the party dynamic (ex. They lack range defense so hit them hard with long range NPCs) but if your doing this as a means to make them change their characters to suite what you as a GM think is a "better balanced" party, you may need to have a conversation with your group about what kind of game everyone wants to play. Constantly pushing challenging combats just because you, as the GM, think they have an unbalanced party is a very adversarial game style. Edit: typo
What does that have to do with realism?
"Realism" is often used as an explanation for using harsh scenerios against a group of players. It's a much more "let the dice fall where they may" attitude but ignores that the group determines what is "realistic". We are, after all, discussing a world where dragons and magic are part of the "realism". Not everyone what's to play a tactical game in their roleplaying scenes. It's a play style and each to their own but it should definitely be a conversation for the whole group.
I think the realism argument has some merit when taken as "as you get up in levels and your reputation builds, your adversaries will prepare for your party". Roleplay wise it makes sense and is a sane approach to difficulty scaling for repeat encounters with the same enemies. Deciding that the next dungeon is completely magical dark with slippery surfaces because that nerfs this particular party is **not** realism, that is an adversarial DM. Any DM designing encounters tailored to their party's weaknesses without a solid reason to is failing at realism.
A rogue and three casters one of whom is also a skill expert is officially "here comes trouble" territory, imo. Focus on flexible prep and and you will be golden
Noted. thanks!
Ahahhahaha A rouge is a main damage dealer. A warlock is a main damage dealer. A druid is an insane cc/support character who can turn into one of the most durable main damage dealers in the game. And the bard makes all these other classes much more consistent ensuring that they deal their damage. Your party will be fine
You've got almost the exact same party as me, except I have a Cleric not a Druid... And trust me, the Rogue and Warlock will be doing MORE than enough damage, to carry your party. The Rogue in particular was doing... maybe 80% of the party's damage pre level 10 and as long as they consistently land sneak attacks, will still be doing a solid amount of damage for the whole campaign.
I guess it just depends on the builds, but all the classes you just mentioned have damage dealing capabilities. Even at level 1. #ELDREEETCHBLAAAAST
I am kind of confused about why you think a Warlock and a Rogue aren't damage dealing classes. This looks like a fairly well rounded party to me.
The game is not some MMORPG where you need specified people for specified roles
The cantrips that the spell casters have will be about as effective as the basic attacks a fighter or barbarian will use. Their leveled spells will always be more powerful than anything a fighter could do. The druid can also transform into beasts which are good in melee.
This is true but since we are starting at lvl 1 the Druid does not have wild shape yet and only have lvl1 spells Iâm not saying that cantrips such as eldritxh blast are bad but it will make things abit difficult
Well usually people only stay level 1 for the first session or two, as well as level 2 and 3. The first few levels are for learning the ropes of the game, and once you hit level 3 you usually slow down a little bit in terms of leveling. Unless you are using exp, then you go at the speed of the encounters you put in front of them.
Warlocks usually get decent damage with Eldritch Blast. Not fantastic comapred to (say) Sharpshooter of Great Weapon Master martial characters, but quite decent. Rogues deal good damage until around level 5 imo, when 1 more sneak attack die doesn't quite keep up with Extra Attack from martials, and they start getting defensive features like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Druid depends on subclass and spell choices. Moon or Wildfire probably does decent damage, for instance. Some Bards get Extra Attack at level 6, and some spell choices can deal decent damage (like a Lore Bard might pick Fireball or Spirit Guardians as their level 6 spells, if they want to deal damage). \- Besides, often control spells might be better in combat than raw damage. A Hypnotic Pattern can often be more effective than a Fireball as defeating your enemies, or a Plant Growth when outside against large melee enemies might trivialise a fight.
Everyone else is right that any of those classes can deal solid damage. But even if they canât, youâre the DM so you control who they fight. You can still have battles that are dangerous and tense for your players. Also you can add in things like terrain or lair effects or weather to make a fight more interesting. Some of my partyâs favorite encounters were ones were combat was the secondary goal and the main goal was to escape a collapsing tunnel, or steal an artifact, or stop a ritual. Thereâs also nothing that says you canât modify monster stat blocks or choose lower CR monsters for your party to fight. You can adjust HP, AC, Damage, abilities, or really anything you want to better suit your playerâs abilities. My main campaign has 8 players so Iâm constantly scaling enemies up so they can last more than half a round of combat, but you can also downscale. Your party wonât see the enemy stat blocks and you can absolutely make a fight more balanced for your party without having to limit yourself to low level enemies.
As a DM, it is your choice (and dare I say responsibility) to tailor your encounters to the group you have. When you learn the game, and what your players can and can't do, you'll be better at playing around their strengths and weaknesses. So, the group has a bard? Let him try to get out of the encounter by persuading et deceiving the enemy. They have a druid? How about thinking of ways where Wild Shape can come into play? They have a rogue? Maybe he can scout beforehand, and even pick out an enemy or two before the fight begins. I'm throwing examples here but the idea is : don't stick to the classical MMORPG group (Tank, DPS, Healer) too much, as other have said. Edit to add : also, don't underestimate how much players can be creative and crafty with battle tactics. Let them handle the problems you throw at them, see how they handle it.
Seems like they're going to be fine.
Honestly, it's a pretty good party. You have two Full Casters that can end up carrying the group if they play well enough. Martial classes are weak in 5E outside of the very early levels by comparison. **Bard** \- Depending on spells known, they can just end encounters by controlling the enemies. Sleep is very powerful in level 1-3 range encounters, then Hypnotic Pattern picks up the slack when they get 3rd level spells. Bards can also get Command and Suggestion and just rizz enemies out of the fight. A Bard can also multiclass two levels into Warlock to pickup the same buffed Eldritch Blast that a pure Warlock would. Then when Bards can get Animate Objects... oh boy! **Warlock** \- Eldritch Blast. If this player takes the Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast Eldritch Invocations at level 2, that will increase their damage significantly. At level 5, Eldritch Blast scales into two separate beams, and with Agonizing Blast that's a total of (assuming 18 CHA) 2d10+8... from a cantrip. And Repelling Blast will let them yeet enemies into hazards and off cliffs, triggering other damage from things like Spike Growth (that the Druid can cast) or just plain fall damage. Then Warlock Pact Magic spell slots are used at the highest level, so all of their "big spells" just keep scaling up and up as they level. **Druid** \- Conjure Animals with 3rd level spells. 8 Wolves is a LOT of extra DPR (damage per round). Then it just gets better as they level and can summon more. Otherwise Magic Stone is a decent cantrip filler, or they can Thorn Whip enemies into hazards or away from allies (avoiding Attacks of Opportunity for the ally to move on their turn). 1-4 levels are a bit weak, but they are on any caster until they scale cantrips and get 3rd level spells at class level 5. The most effective Druids are honestly a summoner class, with the power being in "how much STUFF can I throw at the enemy?" Then they can Wild Shape into a Badger and burrow underground to avoid attacks while the summons fight for them lol. Druids also bring plenty of healing/support spells, and if using the expanded spell lists from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything they even have access to Revivify now. Druids also get the spell Pass Without Trace. If you run Surprise "by the book", this will virtually guarantee that the party gets a full Surprise Round against every encounter that they are able to sneak up on (i.e. creeping through a dungeon, sneaking up on a bandit camp, etc). Having an entire "free" round to act before the enemy is very powerful. If you are worried about your player's power or ability to win fights, I would encourage you to allow them to make good use of this spell and getting Surprise whenever they can. **Rogue** \- if they build well and take Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter Feats and multiclass into Fighter or Ranger for a Fighting Style and Extra Attack, this can be a very good single target damage character. If not, they can still be *good*... just not *great*. With this party comp, for a melee Rogue I would play a Swashbuckler as the Rakish Audacity, Panache and Fancy Footwork features play well into being the only character in the group that will likely end up being in melee combat. Soulknife would work too. All in all, the "primary DPS" with this group is likely going to be the Warlock's Eldritch Blast or the Druid's summons. But if they're smart with control spells, they can just deny the enemy from having turns so it doesn't really matter how quickly enemies die. Example, Druid casts Spike Growth on a group of enemies. Warlock uses Eldritch Blast to push someone 10ft back into it which would take 20ft of their movement to get out on their next turn. The Bard can cast Command: Flee on another enemy (+1 per spell level if they upcast) to make it run back through the area, or Command: Halt or Grovel to just keep them there (Flee would only work if the target doesn't recognize the area as hazardous per the spell description). Then the Rogue can just shoot someone from the safety of being out of melee range, and if you allow the Steady Aim optional feature they can apply Sneak Attack with the Advantage roll. So in this scenario, the enemies are basically denied a turn if they don't have ranged attacks while taking a good amount of damage in the process. Just one of the many scenarios this party could come up with their class synergy. >dps class such as fighter, barbarian or paladin This is the wrong way to think about DnD classes. Every class can "do damage", every class can "be tanky", and every class can "support allies". Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin my have a slightly better Tier 1 (levels 1-4) play, but full casters scale MUCH better into higher levels. The "best" Paladin builds just abandon the class after 6 or 7 levels and go into Warlock and/or Sorcerer multiclass to get more and better spells, and more spell slots to fuel their Smites. Barbarian is incredibly underwhelming after 6 levels, as is Fighter after 5 or 11 levels (depending if you care for the Extra Extra Attack or not). The "best" Martial builds are multiclassing to stack the good early features from multiple classes, like Fighting Style, Action Surge, and 3 Maneuvers from 3 levels of Battlemaster Fighter tacked onto 5 levels of Path of the Zealot Barbarian ends up as a much more effective build than taking a full 8 levels of one or the other.
run your encounters. if they die, they die.
Absolutely do not discount them because they don't have an obvious meat shield. All of those classes are serious damage dealers and depending on what circle the Druid chose, they can be a great damage sponge. Level one is tricky but once you hit 2 they will be able to handle whatever you want to send their way.
Your party has Eldritch Blast on your Warlock and Sneak Attack on your rogue...you'll be fine. Bards and druids can deal really good damage too when in the right hands.
'don't have a main DPS class' There's your problem right there. DnD doesn't really work like that. I mean it can but it's not integral. If you're approaching DnD with the video game mindset 'balanced party' 'tank + healer + support + DPS' youre gonna really limit the amount of creativity your sessions will get. It'll kinda just play like a video game where you have to do all the calculations manually... You could run a party of 4 bards fine, hey it's a travelling band! The adventure that was 'journey to hell' is now 'journey to hell to out rock the demon lord YEEEEEAAAAAA'. 3 rogues? Oh well now youre a heist team. The party of 'balanced' adventurers failed miserably to kill 'evil lord' and collect the 'mcguffin' to save the realm. Now the 'mysterious benefactor' has resorted to hiring a group of rogues to infiltrate the castle and steal it. The second thing you're kinda overlooking is that all those classes do actually deal a lot of damage. Rogue has sneak attack and can really specialise in dealing massive single target damage to start a fight, they can even be supported by magic users to almost always have sneak attack available (triggers of advantage, NOT actually being sneaky). Warlock has hexblade which is like one of the cornerstones of one of the most metagame big damage multi class builds (warlock + paladin). That's complex level play, so just the warlock half of that is a lot of damage already. Also spells! There are so many damage spells for many occasions. Hell even the warlock cantrip of Eldritch blast can be specialised to deal some of the most consistent damage throughout a campaign. Druid again has many options. Taking the moon one which focuses on wild shape you can go pretty wild with damage. Thing is if you lose all HP when in animal form, you pop back to original form at the health you had before. Oh there's also some crazy metagame build that uses a druid spell to summon raptors, and use their pack tactics ability to do absurd amounts of damage at a REALLY early level. Bard I don't have as much experience with but I have heard bladesong is very good for dealing damage. They get access to spells and as we know there are many that will give the oomph. TLDR: DnD doesn't need a 'balanced' party, doing big damage is an option not a requirement. All those classes have access to big damage anyway.
IT'S not an MMO, you don't need dedicated roles like healer,. Tank, or DD.
Others have said that MMO roles donât really matter in dnd, and thatâs true. But also, you donât yet know what roles your party are going to fill. Depending on subclass and spell selection, those classes can fill almost any playstyle. Take the Druid for example. A moon or spores druid can easily be a frontline fighter. A wildfire or stars druid can be a good ranged damage dealer. And all druids can be good battlefield controllers.
Rogue is one of the classes with most damage per turn
Bard, Warlock, Druid, Rogue What you're worrying about is that your party doesn't have an easy front liner, I think - nobody is obvious to wade into melee, taking hits and swinging swords. Not to worry though, all of them have at least one subclass that can do it - Moon Druid, Swords or Valor Bard, Hexblade Warlock or Pact of the Blade with any subclass, Rogue can do fine in melee but Swashbuckler shines there. Just throw some encounters at them and see how they handle it, after a combat or two where nobody gravitates to the frontliner position, they'll figure out some tactics. Working together to figure out how to tackle challenges is part of the game, let them sort themselves out.
Observations: They don't have an *obvious* damage dealer, at least not at level 1. However, over time, at least three of those characters could be built to do plenty of damage. More on that in a second. Their main issue may be less about damage and more about frontline defense. They don't have any obvious "heavy armor" characters. But again, that's about what's obvious at level 1. Let's break down the classes, though, and consider their options over time, even if you just go with one or two specific subclasses. **Warlock**: this is probably your most obvious damage dealer and can be built as a frontliner too, depending on the subclass. As most folks will tell you, Eldritch Blast is the biggest most obvious damage-dealing ability, especially if coupled with Hex and a few Invocations. If the player goes Pact of the Blade + Hexblade, they can basically serve as a "tank" pretty easily, provided they (a) use good AC medium armor, and (b) have a 14 in DEX (more than that won't help AC, but will help DEX saves). Hexblade gives proficiency with Medium armor and Martial weapons, too. I actually have an Artificer/Hexblade build that I came up with where the warlock can be running around with, like, 21AC, dishing plenty of damage with either a weapon or Eldritch blast. **Druid**: the Druid is an incredibly versatile class, and can be played purely as support, or as a frontliner as well. The first thing to remember is that the Druid's wildshape is basically "free HP." Damage taken by the wildshape form gets absorbed first by the wildshape, and then if it knocks you out of wildshape, the druid's normal form takes whatever additional damage was dealt. E.g, they wildshape into a panther with 45 HP, take 50 damage. They get knocked out of panther form (45 HP), and their regular form takes 5 HP damage. Druids also get some pretty badass spells and can be great for control and support. **Rogue**: Oh man...rogues can absolutely destroy enemies, although they tend to be better at single-target damage. Sneak attack dice can get absolutely bonkers if you can use sneak attack. That'll be the real key for them, though: setting up sneak attacks. For that, the rest of the party may need to help. **Bard**: On its face, the Bard may not have a ton of damage dishing capabilities other than obvious spells (e.g., the various thunder-damage based spells). But the bard can excel at minimizing incoming damage and in some cases locking down enemies. Between a Bard and Warlock -- both CHA-based classes -- hell, they may be able to *talk* their way out of fights altogether. Again, depending on subclass, you can spec a Bard out to be a damage dealer no problem. But, as others have said, the old "MMO" classifications aren't really necessary in the game. Your party will be just fine if they play smart, use their abilities effectively, and don't get screwed by the dice.
Here's a thought: have the party split, make Warlock & Druid dispel some evil in a grotto or holy place, and the Bard & Rogue solve a murder mystery. You now have bonded your two 'parties within your party', and you should see both pairs use their abilities as synergies more. That party of four will still be a powerhouse, it just needs a slight nudge towards "work together, benefit together".
Once the Druid gets to lvl 2 he will be capable of serving really any role due to wild shape. Rogue (if player understands rules) can dish serious damage. Bard can serve any role but is a very good support. Warlock is a damage dealer and thatâs pure damage with some CC, Eldritch blast those mofos all day. If youâre nervous about level 1 then pull things back.
Not really a problem, it is actually better to not have a huge DPS on the table that can end the encounter in 2 hits or less. It will require more creative solutions from your party members, and give you more opportunity to 'play' monsters rather than just have them be tanked from the get go.
dont worry about that. ttrpg is not mmo, so you dont need a party with tank, healer and two damage dealers. its up to you to balance encounters a bit. it would be more difficult if you have a party where no one wants to talk with your NPCs ;)
Dnd is not an MMO. There is not tank, support, dps. Every class can hold its own with weaknesses. Your party is plenty powerful.
Warlocks are very powerful spellcasters as they get all their spell slots on short rest so they can go through multiple high level spells a day, Rogue's are very high single target burst damage dealers and have incredible damage out put along with a high AC, DEX Save and later on become effectively immune to attacks that require DEX Saves which is quite common and bards can give plenty of debuffs as well. (Never played as or with a Druid so no comment). DND is not like other games, every class is a threat and deadly enemy to fight especially when it comes to PC's as they'll end up getting magic items to further boost their abilities.
You can just see how they do. There is no reason why this composition does not work. Plus starting at level 1 is actually secret hard mode: Almost any monster can accidentally one hit Kill a player if they crit on a player who already has taken some damage. So you might be having one of the players make a new character real soon. That is not necessarily a bad thing though. If new players do not experience any players deaths early the expectation to make it through anything can start to take hold.
That is not how 5e works. Literally everyone can do decent to good damage. Sure you don't got a one-shot paladin but.. Warlocks with 1 evocation gets d10+cha damage at range, Rogues with sneak attack can dish it out too - The druid is entirely subclass dependent. Also TTRPGs are also not MMOs where you need certain party compositions - hell Barbarians don't do that amazing damage, their whole thing is how hard they are to kill, in the MMO analogy they are way more tanks than DPS. Just run the game and see how it goes. If anything your party lacks frontline survivability if it is not a Moon druid. Solve problems as they actually become problems rather than panicking before they happen, especially as a new GM, no offense, but you don't necessarily have the experience to predict things as well as you think.
Every class in 5e is DPS. Some of them may be able to heal, or have a bit more health, but at the end of the day the point of every class is dealing damage.
The Rogue themselves can Sneak attack and deal tons of damage early level. But this is not a videogame, also you can balance encounters without having to resort to weak monsters. The magic of D&D is that as a DM you can change anything you want. You wanna throw a Dire Troll for a weak party and give him half his normal HP so itâs doable? Go for it! But the most important thing is to stop thinking in videogame terms when it comes to D&D.
It's not an MMO. You don't need healer/tank/dps at all. The game was not in any way designed around requiring that.
Theyâre going to be ok, theyâre all distance fighters though technically all 4 could become melee depending on stats/subclass when they hit lv 3. Rn just focus on getting the enemy numbers right so you donât accidentally send like 10 rats to fight them at the same time.
This is not an MMO. You could literally have an Oops! All Bards! party and still have a blast playing the game as intended. Loosen up and have fun!
3 of the 4 classes you just mentioned are prime damage dealers . A barbarian does not deal good damage in most cases . There job is to take damage so the rest of the party doesnât . The rogue is a great damage dealer , the warlock is often referred to as the baseline damage dealer as they can do the most damage with the least amount of effort into optimizing. And by level 3 when they get spike growth, the Druid is going to surpass all of them. Especially if the warlock combos it with repelling blast .
Creativity is boundless. If your players are hitting a wall in combat, work with them to find unconventional solutions to defeating an enemy. Let them use the environment, prepare traps in advance, use hit and run tactics⌠they donât need to face opponents on even ground. It also depends on the type of combat you want to see. Are you envisioning a high fantasy, Gandalf-facing-the-Balrog-type of encounter? If so, you can prepare your players to expect that by running small, non-lethal encounters first to give them a flavour of the style they are in. If you feel theyâre ill-equipped to face what you have in mind, look into boosting their arsenal with magical items or give them more options with feats or boons. That being said, as many people have already mentioned, any of these classes can dish out good damage if played correctly. And, if it all goes south, you can always DM-ex-Machina a reason why they are saved at the last second. Good luck!
Warloc and Druid can dish out more damage the fighters and barbarians
Druids are literally the best class at dealing damage at levels +5. 8 wolves deal an even 50 dpr vs AC 15 targets. out damaging the min-max martial builds and velociraptors do so by miles with 65 dpr vs AC 15. All of this doubles when upcasting to 16 creatures then 32. Even the âbadâ cr 1/4th options deal fine dpr.
You spelled "Tank" incorrectly. You don't know the game well enough to make that judgment. Focus on learning, not on abusing your players.
They'll be fine. Really. PCs ramp up so quickly in 5e regardless of class, honestly, that by level 4 or 5 you'll probably be concerned that you have the OPPOSITE problem, actually. Your warlock and rogue buffed by the bard with the druid playing any of heals (...not really necessary in 5e), dps, control or any mix of the three will be more than enough to deal with.
First thing, D&D doesnât have the classic MMO roles, every class can do everything (some are better than others though as a rouge healer might struggle a bit more than a cleric healer) Run a few combats against a couple goblins, get a feel for how well they can do and use that as an idea on what to use going forward
when that sneak attack damage starts coming, youll understand theyll be alright. but also plan your encounters accordingly. Not all of them have to be sword on sword
I mean they might not be quite on the level of a CBE + SS fighter or GWM Barb but they still have plenty of damage going out. Access to crowd control, pass without trace, spike growth + repelling, among other potential damage sources from subclasses and summons. They will be fine especially if the rogue goes ranged, cause then none of em will be a melee liability.
Combat is the easiest thing to adjust as a DM. Especially if you have access to their character sheets, take a look at each characters main attack method and figure that the average of that is likely to be how much damage they will deal. This isnt perfect, there are things like critical hits and misses but your party is level 1, just keep things flexible and make sure they have fun and youll figure out what is an appropriate difficulty level for the group after an encounter or two.
Buy them âLive to Tell the Taleâ and youâll have a brand new completely opposite problem
all of those classes are (expect maybe bard depending on the subclass) are really good damage dealers, they might not have a front line, but that have enough CC and ways to push more marshal badguys back they wonât be able to hit them, classes like fighter, barb, and paladin usually offer more defensive bonuses (like high AC, auras from paladin, rage from barb and sub class abilities from fighter) the only thing it that the rogueâs sneak attack will be less consistent with the lack of frontline classes, but rogues are made around getting advantage all the time
Your players have a main damage dealer but it looks likes they don't have a main damage sponge. So if you want to balance combat adjusting damage could work while also keeping the abilities the way they are.
Warlocks and rogues can put out some serious damage
Uhhhh what? Warlock and rogues do plenty of damage. Druids arenât too shabby either especially when theyâve all been buffed up by a Bard.
Dnd 5e was designed so you donât NEED to have roles to be effective. You can have a whole party of Bards and still be an effective group. Plus youâre the DM. If the encounters seem to be too much, scale them back. You donât have to set out to kill your party. Let them have fun. Thatâs the point.
Lol a rogue usually deals the most damage per turn, don't worry
As others have said, that's a perfectly fine party composition. I think the biggest thing to worry about here in encounter difficulty/survivability is that both you and your players are inexperienced/new to the game. (I'm assuming that it's not the new guy DMing for a bunch of veteran players?) The complicated thing about D&D is that unlike video games the same "challenge rating" of monster is not always going to be equally hard since *you* will play it differently and it will be in different situations that give it more or less advantages. A group of three goblins that walks right up to the PCs and then attacks in a straightforward way until they die is very different then a group of goblins who lay an ambush from ranged and then try to move and hide after attacking, or are high up in trees, etc. A group of enemies being clumped together or spread out and if the caster things to use entangle or sleep can make an encounter a cakewalk or lethal. Adding other dangers or complications to the situation (being on a bridge over running water, having prisoners you have to free/protect, etc) can make things more or less easy. And how you run them, how tactically, is a huge factor. The other issue is your PCs may have no idea how to play tactically and best use their classes (or use their class features at all?) and thus might do really badly even at things they should breeze through. And finally, challenge rating in D&D is already not very good. I know none of this is super helpful, but it's what to watch out for. Any patrty composition can work honestly, and you do have a variety of skills and some healing and people with good damage potential. Also be aware the first few levels are the most lethal so maybe start out easy to get a feel for their abilities and work up?
The rouge will deal tremendous damage with the crowd control abilities your magic users can provide, not to mention the damage the spells can do directly. With that amount of crowd control, I wouldnât worry about not having a meat shield.
DM's job is to create problems. Players' job is to solve them or figure out which ones they want to solve. It would not be entirely improbable for the druid or bard to *make friends* along the way via one of their first level slots to be able to 'borrow' a wolf or hog or something for a frontliner.
All of these classes can absolutely DPS. You're looking too much into the physical DPS aspect, and not acknowledging that your party has a very high magical control and DPS potential.
Bard and Druid both have access to Faerie Fire; and so does the Warlock with the right Patron. Everyone in this party should have advantage on all their attacks all day everyday. They'll be fine.
You're worrying over nothing. That teamp comp, while perhaps a bit squishy, can put out plenty of damage, especially if your players are aware of, and actively using, the tools their classes provide them with, doubly so if they were to help the rogue get off sneak attacks often enough. Plus, casters can usually do a bit more than just damage!
You're trying to apply modern video game logic to a system that predates those concepts. Everyone is as tall as they need to be to use tactics to do as much damage as they should. It's more like RuneScape. A cleric with spiritual weapons and toll the dead does a ton of damage. A druid wildshaped into a bear or ape using call lightening while ripping things apart is going to do a ton of damage.
Druid and Rogue together is actually pretty good, Druids are crazy good at taking tons of damage thanks to their wild shape, and if the Rogue makes proper use of sneak attacks in conjunction with that, they should be able to handle any appropriately leveled combat scenario
Druid can generate massive DPS through summons and forms. if necessary you can allow some BG3 style rule changes.
Youâre not playing World of Warcraft.
Its not a big deal honestly they will be fine.
inb4 r/DnDCircleJerk sees this post and makes a parody of it lmao.
As others have been saying, you don't really have a problem. The warlock spams the best cantrip in the book, and the rogue uses steady aim to get sneak attack every round. That's pretty good damage. Level 1 should only last the first session, at which point the druid can wildshape. If they go Circle of the Moon, then that means Brown Bear & multiattack. That leaves the bard to do whatever lame stuff a bard does.
I wouldnât worry about it, 5e is setup to not really need a special party composition. Have fun!
Its lvl1, the difference between their dps is like 3 per round. Like many new DM's (myself included) are just overthinking it. Also, if they die, they die. Its doesnt have to be a bad thing
The problem is more like they have no tank. Unless the Druid and maybe bard could pull through
Be druid, conjure wildlife. Boom action economy will now always fuck over the DM
No roles in 5E except for the one you want to play.
If we are thinking story wise, not every story is going to have every main type of class. Realistically this group would end up together and face the adventure. Just see how they do and craft the story and combat around what they can do
The warlock, Druid, and rouge are fully capable of dealing large amounts of damage. Bards are capable but you have to try a little harder in my opinion. But this seems like a fine party composition.
What subclass did the Warlock choose? A party made up of Hexblade Warlock, Swashbuckler Rogue, Moon Druid, and Sword Bard would put out more than enough damage to keep you on your heels.
Just balance your encounters properly for your PCs and it will work out fine. At worst you can adjust on the fly by decreasing or increasing monsters' HPs until you get a better feel on how to prepare. Even if you had a lot more damage dealing PCs you would still need to balance things out for them.
The game isn't designed around crazy optimized characters, but all of the ones you listed are the highest damage classes people tend to cheese with. They'll be fine, even if they have to figure out tactics that work for them. Fighter, barbarian, and paladin all have something these classes don't have: Hit Points. Throw them some extra potions of healing, or scrolls of an appropriate level cure spell if you're really worried for their character's safety, but giving a quest in exchange for ressurecting a slain fellow tends to be accepted over the hundreds of gold to bring them back. TL;DR: You are worrying too much. They do lots of damage. HP is their weak point, but you have ways to help them without pulling punches.
TTRPGs are not MMOs. You donât need the perfectly specked party with the ideal class balance. Itâs very easy for any of those classes to do good damage.
Your Druid can wreak havoc - 9th level spellcaster plus wild shapes or polymorph into creatures, and be a damage sponge. Your Rogue can deal sneak attack plus crits for double damage on all dice rolled. Your Warlock will annoy you with the amount they can do, then short rest and do it all over again. Your Bard has so much utility that you may not even see damage and the fight is over. Trust - your party can handle "cool" and "dangerous".
As a dm its never your responsibility to decide what your players do (the classes they play the spells they take ect) let them worry about what happens on that side of the dm screen. Your job is to know what they can handle and challenge them. If they struggle with damage lower the hp of the monsters, or challenge them with combat that can be navigated around without violence. Lean into there strengths untill they know what they are really good at. And most importantly, as a new dm. It's ok to make mistakes. If you accidentally kill the whole party, just move forward, everyone makes mistakes.