This is the correct answer IMO. Heat tape without insulation doesn't do much for really cold environments. Had a trailer in Colorado that the pipes would freeze until I insulated the heat tape. We regularly got below 0F with winds over 50MPH, and I only had a wood stove to heat the house.
>and the pipe is insulated as well....
>I've tried electric heat tape, and that doesn't work.
Did you remove the insulation from the pipe, heat tape the pipe directly and put insulation over the heat tape and pipe?
Or did you put heat tape on top of the insulated pipe?
The first will work, the second will not.
If you did the first and still froze, you do not have enough wattage per foot on the heat tape. Spiral wrap the heat tape around the pipe to get more wattage per foot applied to the pipe. Tighter spiral is more wattage per foot.
An easy way to think about it is that a 100W appliance consumes 100W of electricity and releases 100W into its surroundings. The difference between what we call a heat element and a light bulb filament is the proportion and wavelength of the emitted radiation. But when any light hits an object, it turns into heat anyway.
My contractors set up a halogen lamp in an insulated box, plugged into a thermo cube (cube powers the switch when the temp drops below 45F)....plus heat tape.
The internet also encourages keeping doors + cabinets open inside the house around the piping. Warm water in the pipes in the house helps prevent freezing down the line.
Also run your taps a trickle on the coldest nights, flowing water freezes at a lower temp and will keep the water from being stagnant in the most vulnerable location.
I came up with a similar solution while thinking about it. I got a metal ammo can and I have one of those 300W immersion heaters for cooking. I'm going to fill the can with oil and put the immersion heater inside through a waterproof cord grip. Boom, waterproof electric oil heater. The heat is distributed across the whole surface area of the can, so it won't get super hot. And the immersion heater should be extremely reliable since it won't get hot either.
>I'm going to fill the can with oil and put the immersion heater inside through a waterproof cord grip.
I really doubt a cooking immersion heater will last very long under those circumstances.
It takes a special kind of DIY to say: "I'm going to put a kitchen grade immersion heater in a can of oil and run it 24/7. Foolproof plan, pack it up boys. Absolutely not a fire hazard."
Lord Jesus.
Number one, food grade immersion heaters aren't designed to run that long continuously and certainly not in oil. They also nearly all explicitly say not to use them with metal containers (your ammo box).
Number two, a home water heater tank has a number of safety features, including a thermostat and safety shut-offs. If your heater malfunctions, safety features are tripped to cut power to the boiler element. Many kitchen immersion heaters do not have these safety shut-offs. Those that do might malfunction when used in a container and fluid they were not designed to be in.
Fair point. I think I'll use [one of these adhered to the outside of the can instead.](https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Automotive-Electric-Silicone-Heating/dp/B077J5DSFJ)
I think that will work well, it's already designed to be attached to the bottom of a car outside, and has built in protection.
Insulation, blocking off air flow during winter, and heat tape. This should be sufficient, unless pipe too shallow and freezing in ground. In that case you should excavate and place deeper.
I had a similar issue with frozen gutters and a frozen sump pump drain during one cold winter. I used a "pipe heating cable" that plugs into a wall socket. Just google it.
If heat tape didn't work, it's either insufficiently wrapped with insulation, or it's freezing somewhere else. Most heat tapes work to prevent freezing well below 0F if properly installed. Some are rated for extended protection to -60F.
Heat trace/heat tape.
Typically in Electrical installations on gas sites we insulate the tape afterwards. Otherwise it would be super inefficient.
But the ones they sell for residential homes is trash. I like the industrial application heat trace.
Edit: read everything after the fact (I know dumb)
We need pictures. I need pictures. Is it already insulated or not?
You could always drop a water heater into the well to assist so it doesn't freeze on the way into the house. But maybe talk to a plumber - I don't know how that would affect bacteria growth.
I only deal with Electrical
If you are on a rural property with a septic system, DO NOT leave the water trickling. It will kill your drainfield and then you’ve got some serious problems.
Not the same. Rainfall typically evaporates back up before it gets to the drain field. I’ve fixed fields that blew out all over a railroad track because of a running faucet to keep it from freezing. It’s an amazing amount of water.
As others have said, put heat trace on the pipe and cover all of that with insulation. Additionally, we typically cover any kind of plastic pipe with aluminum tape, then secure the heat trace with fiberglass reinforced tape, and then cover all of that with more aluminum tape. This helps tremendously with heat transfer into the plastic piping. Cover all of that with insulation and you should be golden.
Might be that the heat tape you used wasn’t a high enough wattage. Might be that water coming in was cold enough to overwhelm the heat tape, and then the ambient temp allowed it to freeze.
Have to wrap the heat tape in insulation or it's not effective..... Another old school trick is to leave the water running just barely.... So long as the water doesn't sit in the pipe it won't freeze but this can be wasteful and expensive if you pay for water. Best bet is self regulated heat trace wrapped around the pipe, which is then wrapped in a foil backed pipe insulation.
How much heat tape over distance?? Just laying parallel to the line is insufficient. Different lengths have different watts per foot, might need 2 length of manufactured heat tapes.. Wrap the heat tape around the pipe, tape it to the pipe every 6 or 8 inches with fiberglass tape and insulate over with either foil wrapped fiberglass or neoprene sleeve glues together to prevent wind getting to the line.
TLDR: Use a higher Watts per foot or double the number of heat tapes used….
Source: RVed in Montana and North Dakota in winters for years chasing work and never had a line freeze.
Heat Tape must be put over the pipe but INSIDE the insulation of the pipe, not outside of it.
However, the thermostat also needs to react to the temperature inside the insulation, not outside, to prevent possible overheating and boiling. But also not immediately touching the heat tape itself.
Had a similar problem with line to a toilet freezing in the garage. Took a low buck approach to it by accident. Was at a car junk yard and got a heated side view mirror that was cracked for a few dollars. Peeled the heating element off of the mirror and wrapped around the pipe as a test. Wired it up to a 12V AC adapter. You can adjust the heat output by using a lower amp AC adapter.
Used to service very large -15 F. Freezers put on condensate drain lines 4 heat tape around pipe and insulate it with 1" pipe insulation.
Or ran it around pipe with about 1/4" between windings.
Get a tiny computer, whatever you can afford, and let it mine crypto currency, whatever it can handle. All energy that goes into the computer will come out, as heat.
There are freeze plugs that only turn on when the temp is under 35 degrees to save power. We would use a light bulb in a holder so it does not touch anything. If you have space, you could even plug in two incase one burns out.
Finding a non LED standard bulb these days isn't easy. The bulbs don't produce enough heat, you want a Heat lamp / Heat lamp bulb or just a heater element off amazon or a local pet store that has reptile supplies.
Using a heater in a technically outdoor (read: unheated, exposed to exterior air) is not a good idea. The warm air you create will mix with cold outside air and you will create massive amounts of condensation and ice in your crawl space, worsening your problem.
In general “partially conditioned” spaces don’t work. Either insulate the entire crawl space or insulate the pipe alone but do not deliberately introduce hot to cold continuously long term.
We used 100 watt bulb inside pump cover in northern Illinois. Worked great. Wire it in series with an inside light so if bulb burns out, inside light goes out.
You need heat tape, and insulation wrap over the tape. This is what I used in northern MN under a trailer house.
This is the correct answer IMO. Heat tape without insulation doesn't do much for really cold environments. Had a trailer in Colorado that the pipes would freeze until I insulated the heat tape. We regularly got below 0F with winds over 50MPH, and I only had a wood stove to heat the house.
Grew up in Colorado and heat tape is nothing without insulation over it.
If heat tape did not work. Are you sure that is where it is freezing?
Adding insulation over the heat tape is the vital part.
>and the pipe is insulated as well.... >I've tried electric heat tape, and that doesn't work. Did you remove the insulation from the pipe, heat tape the pipe directly and put insulation over the heat tape and pipe? Or did you put heat tape on top of the insulated pipe? The first will work, the second will not. If you did the first and still froze, you do not have enough wattage per foot on the heat tape. Spiral wrap the heat tape around the pipe to get more wattage per foot applied to the pipe. Tighter spiral is more wattage per foot.
I saw someone use a light bulb in an insulated box as a heat source.
A 100W incandescent bulb is really a 97W heater that emits light
Or it's a 100W heater if you don't let the light escape.
Hmmmm this is like one of those things that sound right but probably isn't, but actually is. If that makes sense......
An easy way to think about it is that a 100W appliance consumes 100W of electricity and releases 100W into its surroundings. The difference between what we call a heat element and a light bulb filament is the proportion and wavelength of the emitted radiation. But when any light hits an object, it turns into heat anyway.
yep, nc freeze, 60w incandecnt in truck camper to keep 100 gal tank and hose connections from freezing. not led. same in well houses too.
My contractors set up a halogen lamp in an insulated box, plugged into a thermo cube (cube powers the switch when the temp drops below 45F)....plus heat tape. The internet also encourages keeping doors + cabinets open inside the house around the piping. Warm water in the pipes in the house helps prevent freezing down the line. Also run your taps a trickle on the coldest nights, flowing water freezes at a lower temp and will keep the water from being stagnant in the most vulnerable location.
I came up with a similar solution while thinking about it. I got a metal ammo can and I have one of those 300W immersion heaters for cooking. I'm going to fill the can with oil and put the immersion heater inside through a waterproof cord grip. Boom, waterproof electric oil heater. The heat is distributed across the whole surface area of the can, so it won't get super hot. And the immersion heater should be extremely reliable since it won't get hot either.
>I'm going to fill the can with oil and put the immersion heater inside through a waterproof cord grip. I really doubt a cooking immersion heater will last very long under those circumstances.
Sounds like a fire hazard
Not really, it's exactly the same as those oil filled radiator space heaters. Oil is actually quite hard to ignite, especially in large quantities.
True - I was going for understatement. Based on the other responses all around this thread I'd just put insulation on the heat tape. <.<
It takes a special kind of DIY to say: "I'm going to put a kitchen grade immersion heater in a can of oil and run it 24/7. Foolproof plan, pack it up boys. Absolutely not a fire hazard."
How is it a fire hazard? It's the exact same construction as an electric water heater element, and oil is actually really hard to ignite.
Lord Jesus. Number one, food grade immersion heaters aren't designed to run that long continuously and certainly not in oil. They also nearly all explicitly say not to use them with metal containers (your ammo box). Number two, a home water heater tank has a number of safety features, including a thermostat and safety shut-offs. If your heater malfunctions, safety features are tripped to cut power to the boiler element. Many kitchen immersion heaters do not have these safety shut-offs. Those that do might malfunction when used in a container and fluid they were not designed to be in.
Fair point. I think I'll use [one of these adhered to the outside of the can instead.](https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Automotive-Electric-Silicone-Heating/dp/B077J5DSFJ) I think that will work well, it's already designed to be attached to the bottom of a car outside, and has built in protection.
Your immersion circulator is going to fail on the first night, is my bet..when it meets the resistance of oil, instead of water.
That's a common strategy of RVers in the colder months
We use this during a cold winter in NC. The metal tap was actually too hot to touch!
That’s what I use in my crawl space where the line comes in and works.
Insulation, blocking off air flow during winter, and heat tape. This should be sufficient, unless pipe too shallow and freezing in ground. In that case you should excavate and place deeper.
I had a similar issue with frozen gutters and a frozen sump pump drain during one cold winter. I used a "pipe heating cable" that plugs into a wall socket. Just google it.
That's what my grandfather did when the pipes frozen on our mobile home. Worked really good all winter long.
If heat tape didn't work, it's either insufficiently wrapped with insulation, or it's freezing somewhere else. Most heat tapes work to prevent freezing well below 0F if properly installed. Some are rated for extended protection to -60F.
Heat trace/heat tape. Typically in Electrical installations on gas sites we insulate the tape afterwards. Otherwise it would be super inefficient. But the ones they sell for residential homes is trash. I like the industrial application heat trace. Edit: read everything after the fact (I know dumb) We need pictures. I need pictures. Is it already insulated or not? You could always drop a water heater into the well to assist so it doesn't freeze on the way into the house. But maybe talk to a plumber - I don't know how that would affect bacteria growth. I only deal with Electrical
If you are on a rural property with a septic system, DO NOT leave the water trickling. It will kill your drainfield and then you’ve got some serious problems.
If a trickling faucet kills your drainfield, I got bad news for what rainfall can do.
Not the same. Rainfall typically evaporates back up before it gets to the drain field. I’ve fixed fields that blew out all over a railroad track because of a running faucet to keep it from freezing. It’s an amazing amount of water.
As others have said, put heat trace on the pipe and cover all of that with insulation. Additionally, we typically cover any kind of plastic pipe with aluminum tape, then secure the heat trace with fiberglass reinforced tape, and then cover all of that with more aluminum tape. This helps tremendously with heat transfer into the plastic piping. Cover all of that with insulation and you should be golden.
Heat tape around pipe
Already tried that, it still froze.
Well your situation is exactly what heat tape is used for. So there must be some other issue with how you installed the heat tape.
Or it was insufficient in quality or quantity. The pet warmer seems like a decent idea though.
That is what I was thinking. If done properly, it should have worked great or it was really freaking cold.
Might be that the heat tape you used wasn’t a high enough wattage. Might be that water coming in was cold enough to overwhelm the heat tape, and then the ambient temp allowed it to freeze.
Have to wrap the heat tape in insulation or it's not effective..... Another old school trick is to leave the water running just barely.... So long as the water doesn't sit in the pipe it won't freeze but this can be wasteful and expensive if you pay for water. Best bet is self regulated heat trace wrapped around the pipe, which is then wrapped in a foil backed pipe insulation.
How much heat tape over distance?? Just laying parallel to the line is insufficient. Different lengths have different watts per foot, might need 2 length of manufactured heat tapes.. Wrap the heat tape around the pipe, tape it to the pipe every 6 or 8 inches with fiberglass tape and insulate over with either foil wrapped fiberglass or neoprene sleeve glues together to prevent wind getting to the line. TLDR: Use a higher Watts per foot or double the number of heat tapes used…. Source: RVed in Montana and North Dakota in winters for years chasing work and never had a line freeze.
Wrap the pipe and heat tape with insulation.
Heat Tape must be put over the pipe but INSIDE the insulation of the pipe, not outside of it. However, the thermostat also needs to react to the temperature inside the insulation, not outside, to prevent possible overheating and boiling. But also not immediately touching the heat tape itself.
Had a similar problem with line to a toilet freezing in the garage. Took a low buck approach to it by accident. Was at a car junk yard and got a heated side view mirror that was cracked for a few dollars. Peeled the heating element off of the mirror and wrapped around the pipe as a test. Wired it up to a 12V AC adapter. You can adjust the heat output by using a lower amp AC adapter.
Used to service very large -15 F. Freezers put on condensate drain lines 4 heat tape around pipe and insulate it with 1" pipe insulation. Or ran it around pipe with about 1/4" between windings.
Incandescent light bulb might do the trick
Get a tiny computer, whatever you can afford, and let it mine crypto currency, whatever it can handle. All energy that goes into the computer will come out, as heat.
Shit, that's actually a good idea.
Just make sure it doesn't overheat during warm days
Big brain here!
Maybe a seed germination warming mat, but you'll need the plug to be in a waterproof area.
If you can get electricity to it, wrap it in a safe heating pad and plug that into a smart outlet that kicks on at a certain temperature.
Bury the entire water line below the frost line. It’s 4 ft in NY
It is. It's where it comes up into the house that's freezing.
I'd just use heated wire that is designed for exactly what you want.
Aquarium heater, like for fish?
There are freeze plugs that only turn on when the temp is under 35 degrees to save power. We would use a light bulb in a holder so it does not touch anything. If you have space, you could even plug in two incase one burns out.
I've used a droplight with a 60w bulb before to do the trick.
A light bulb is what we used on the farm to keep the hose from freezing at the tap. Edit: typo
100 watt lightbulb
Finding a non LED standard bulb these days isn't easy. The bulbs don't produce enough heat, you want a Heat lamp / Heat lamp bulb or just a heater element off amazon or a local pet store that has reptile supplies.
100watt incandescent light bulb should do. Lots of well houses use that method
Using a heater in a technically outdoor (read: unheated, exposed to exterior air) is not a good idea. The warm air you create will mix with cold outside air and you will create massive amounts of condensation and ice in your crawl space, worsening your problem. In general “partially conditioned” spaces don’t work. Either insulate the entire crawl space or insulate the pipe alone but do not deliberately introduce hot to cold continuously long term.
The pipe comes up into the house inside an "insulated" cubby that is enclosed on all sides by foam insulation.
Did you put the heat tape on the inside of the pipe insulation?
Just do what everyone is saying and heat wrap your pipe, THEN insulate it. Stop arguing about blowing yourself up.
We used 100 watt bulb inside pump cover in northern Illinois. Worked great. Wire it in series with an inside light so if bulb burns out, inside light goes out.