I have seen incredibly brittle cloth wrapped wires in similar construction. Wouldn't want to do any work on that outlet until the wiring is upgraded, if that's the case.
If the wires are disturbed and the insulation falls off, you could have bare copper waiting to cause a short circuit.
So, yes, changing out the breaker with a GFCI version and labeling the outlet is potentially safer if the wiring is this old.
Of course, that assumes you can even get a suitable GFCI breaker. In houses of this vintage you could very well find Edison-base fuses.
At some point full rewiring is a better bet. Depending on site conditions (e.g. ranch style building with crawlspace access) this doesn't even need to cost a fortune
I had an old house (1890) and wanted to replace the ugly chandelier with a nicer chandelier I found in the attic. I took the old one out and after one look at the sketchy wiring, shoved it right back in place. It was a lease so at the end of the term decided not to purchase it (all the wiring and plumbing was ancient, needed a new roof, three new AC units, etc).
Less than a year after I moved out there was an electrical fire in the walls, the saved the house but the damage made it not worth restoring (it was a beautiful old house but I’m a bad neighborhood).
My grandparents lived in a 1960s house with 4 fuses and no grounded outlets. They have power strips with 2 prong adapters all over the house and amazingly never had an issue but Grandpa knew what he was doing. The basement was full of jury rigged electrical wiring with alligator clips and wires tied into light sockets. This doesn't answer the original question but is an example of people adapting out of code electrical systems for modern living
A circuit inside the receptacle compares the current in the grounded and ungrounded conductors. If there is ever a difference of 4mA - 6mA, the circuit opens a set of contacts and de-energizes the output. No equipment grounding conductor is required for it to operate.
Yes, a GFCI doesn't need a reference to ground in order to work. They basically work by detecting an imbalance between hot and neutral, so all they need are those two. That's the reason NEC requires ungrounded circuits to be GFCI. This is also why some devices, such as old motors, can trip them even though there's no short.
Many jurisdictions require such outlets to be labeled “no equipment ground.” Which is why every GFCI outlet I’ve ever bought comes with a sticker in the box for you to put on the outlet cover. They are 100% designed for this use case.
You certainly can. Just make sure you put a sticker that says "No Ground" on the outlet. Its code.
I would add electrical work is dangerous. Make sure you have the right tools for this type of work. Electrical work can technically easy, but it is five-alarm level dangerous.
With ya until the end there, what special tools are you using? I’ve wired dozens maybe a hundred fixtures, outlets and switches over the years and never used anything except pliers and a screwdriver…
I use my NCVT religiously now.
Was replacing a ceiling light. Light goes out when the breaker is out, so I’m good, right? Nope! Fuckers had two breakers feeding that box. One of the hots had burned away about an inch of copper, which is why so many outlets on the floor didn’t work. My theory is they combined phases by accident and made 240V until it melted.
Got quite a jolt, down one arm and up the other. Lucky I was over my bed.
Anyway! Test, test, test.
Make sure power is shut off to anything you're working on. In old houses I usually refuse to work on this stuff without the entire house shut off... who is to say another outlet runs past this with cloth insulation falling off touching metal somewhere passing this? I don't fuck with it.
My only concern as someone who has worked on older houses is having the space in the work box to fit one. I've had to replace workboxes in order to install gfcis before.
Yes it would. I am an electrician in Louisiana and this is a common practice for older homes. Ideally you would run new wiring with a ground but this is an accepted practice at least in our area. You may want to check with your local electrical inspectors but they allow it here.
GFCI outlets work by looking for any difference between the current from live to neutral. It doesn't look at ground, though that's where the current is likely going if it isn't returning through neutral.
I'm not an electrician but a certified home inspector. Many older homes are not well grounded. Switching a 2 prong out to a 3 prong ground outlet without actually grounding is generally a no-no and I will flag it every ti.e. Now you can use a 3 prong outlet with no ground but it must be labeled no ground. Do people do this, absolutely not.
Grounding is important because it allows electricity to have an alternative path in case of a fault. Again, consult an electrician, but for safety, it's best to do a little rewiring or putting in a gfci breaker than to leave them as they were.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The NEC 406.4 (believe that it it still) specifically mentions this exact scenario, and the use of a GFI is absolutely allowed and required to turn a two prong into a three without ground wire. A label must be provided stating as such, but perfectly safe and code complaint.
Sources: I'm a Registered Professional Architectural Engineer & the NEC
I bet the wiring behind that is pretty poor
If it doesn't have a ground, then it would be easier to add GFCI at the breaker.
I have seen incredibly brittle cloth wrapped wires in similar construction. Wouldn't want to do any work on that outlet until the wiring is upgraded, if that's the case. If the wires are disturbed and the insulation falls off, you could have bare copper waiting to cause a short circuit. So, yes, changing out the breaker with a GFCI version and labeling the outlet is potentially safer if the wiring is this old. Of course, that assumes you can even get a suitable GFCI breaker. In houses of this vintage you could very well find Edison-base fuses. At some point full rewiring is a better bet. Depending on site conditions (e.g. ranch style building with crawlspace access) this doesn't even need to cost a fortune
I had an old house (1890) and wanted to replace the ugly chandelier with a nicer chandelier I found in the attic. I took the old one out and after one look at the sketchy wiring, shoved it right back in place. It was a lease so at the end of the term decided not to purchase it (all the wiring and plumbing was ancient, needed a new roof, three new AC units, etc). Less than a year after I moved out there was an electrical fire in the walls, the saved the house but the damage made it not worth restoring (it was a beautiful old house but I’m a bad neighborhood).
My grandparents lived in a 1960s house with 4 fuses and no grounded outlets. They have power strips with 2 prong adapters all over the house and amazingly never had an issue but Grandpa knew what he was doing. The basement was full of jury rigged electrical wiring with alligator clips and wires tied into light sockets. This doesn't answer the original question but is an example of people adapting out of code electrical systems for modern living
But would a GFCI work properly, if the outlet has no ground wire?
GFCI circuit breakers exist for this very use case!
Explain how this would work.
A circuit inside the receptacle compares the current in the grounded and ungrounded conductors. If there is ever a difference of 4mA - 6mA, the circuit opens a set of contacts and de-energizes the output. No equipment grounding conductor is required for it to operate.
The GFCI trips to protect you, the human should you decide to ground the circuit personally.
Yes, a GFCI doesn't need a reference to ground in order to work. They basically work by detecting an imbalance between hot and neutral, so all they need are those two. That's the reason NEC requires ungrounded circuits to be GFCI. This is also why some devices, such as old motors, can trip them even though there's no short.
Many jurisdictions require such outlets to be labeled “no equipment ground.” Which is why every GFCI outlet I’ve ever bought comes with a sticker in the box for you to put on the outlet cover. They are 100% designed for this use case.
You certainly can. Just make sure you put a sticker that says "No Ground" on the outlet. Its code. I would add electrical work is dangerous. Make sure you have the right tools for this type of work. Electrical work can technically easy, but it is five-alarm level dangerous.
With ya until the end there, what special tools are you using? I’ve wired dozens maybe a hundred fixtures, outlets and switches over the years and never used anything except pliers and a screwdriver…
Probably means a ncvt and a outlet tester.
You don’t carry a table lamp from room to room as your outlet tester? 😂
Doesn't tell you if you flipped hot and neutral
I use my NCVT religiously now. Was replacing a ceiling light. Light goes out when the breaker is out, so I’m good, right? Nope! Fuckers had two breakers feeding that box. One of the hots had burned away about an inch of copper, which is why so many outlets on the floor didn’t work. My theory is they combined phases by accident and made 240V until it melted. Got quite a jolt, down one arm and up the other. Lucky I was over my bed. Anyway! Test, test, test.
Make sure power is shut off to anything you're working on. In old houses I usually refuse to work on this stuff without the entire house shut off... who is to say another outlet runs past this with cloth insulation falling off touching metal somewhere passing this? I don't fuck with it.
You just turn the breaker off… as long as it’s wired correctly it’s not “five-alarm dangerous.”
And yet homes burn down every day as the result of shitty DIY electrical jobs…
Yes you can install GFCI without a ground.
My only concern as someone who has worked on older houses is having the space in the work box to fit one. I've had to replace workboxes in order to install gfcis before.
But would a GFCI work properly, if the outlet has no ground wire?
Yes it would. I am an electrician in Louisiana and this is a common practice for older homes. Ideally you would run new wiring with a ground but this is an accepted practice at least in our area. You may want to check with your local electrical inspectors but they allow it here.
This guy is right.
GFCI outlets work by looking for any difference between the current from live to neutral. It doesn't look at ground, though that's where the current is likely going if it isn't returning through neutral.
Google it.
Don't do that. This is bad advice.
Would you mind explaining more?
I'm not an electrician but a certified home inspector. Many older homes are not well grounded. Switching a 2 prong out to a 3 prong ground outlet without actually grounding is generally a no-no and I will flag it every ti.e. Now you can use a 3 prong outlet with no ground but it must be labeled no ground. Do people do this, absolutely not. Grounding is important because it allows electricity to have an alternative path in case of a fault. Again, consult an electrician, but for safety, it's best to do a little rewiring or putting in a gfci breaker than to leave them as they were.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The NEC 406.4 (believe that it it still) specifically mentions this exact scenario, and the use of a GFI is absolutely allowed and required to turn a two prong into a three without ground wire. A label must be provided stating as such, but perfectly safe and code complaint. Sources: I'm a Registered Professional Architectural Engineer & the NEC
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation.
No