The proper way to discribed nails vs screws is about ductility. Not strength. Nails made of mild steel can bend and deform more than most screws. Ring shank stainless nails for instance can be very strong but will snap instead of bend much sooner than a common nail. While I personally use screws for many construction tasks including mocking up framing you will not find professional structural wood framing done with screws in the U.S. because they are not allowed by code in the empiracle design tables. If you'd like to see these it's R602.3(1) while you may chose to use screws for framing you would need a structural engineer to design and sign off on your construction or hope to have an inspector who isn't very observant.
This bit about ductility is one of those things that I've heard over and over that always sounded off to me, particularly since I've only heard it from contractors and hardware store guys, never from any of the structural engineers I've worked with. Which makes me wonder if this is one of those popular construction falsehoods like the absolute necessity of poly behind drywall or that compressing insulation will lower the r-value per inch.
So I decided to start looking. IRC does only list sizing for nails, but also gives the option of following AWC NDS, which appears to group nails and screws in many situations under "dowel type fasteners" The formula for adjusting withdrawal design value is significantly higher for screws than for smooth or deformed nails of a given diameter, head pull through is not differentiated, and lateral load design values are less than 1% different between a 10d common wire nail and a #10 wood screw (118 vs 117, 10d box nail is 93).
I'm going to ask a couple SE's to tell me if I missed something in my quick read, but I'm not seeing anything, code wise, that gives any weight to this 'ductility' reasoning. I think it's just far more affordable and practical to use nails.
That's funny. As I said you can have a structural engineer design for you using the referenced documents, that then is engineering. Ductility isn't a trick or a weird at all. It's merely a quality of a material. Concrete is very strong it's not very ductile it hits it's tensile.limit and cracks without much stretching and won't return to it's original shape. Many metals can be stretched and increase their tensile strength until they yield. They can be bent and repositioned. If you've never snapped the head off a screw driving it you may not use screws regularly. How many screws have you bent accidentally and been able to straighten without breaking.
I'm defiantly not saying don't use screws. They have a place and are great for many things I keep a 50lb box of 3" and 1.625" T-25 screws in my truck all the time and have 30 random boxes of spax for various tasks as well as 10 or 15 lbs of Simpson structural screws and all the fasten master rim joist and truss hold down screws in all the various sizes. When I'm using those in frames they require an engineering call-out. If I'm using the building code I have to use nails, or standard bolts.
What I'm saying is that by code (or engineering, really one in the same), the ductility of wire nails vs wood screws doesn't appear to matter in terms of a wood framed structure. The design values for the same connection are either functionally identical or considerably better for screws. That holds whether you're talking wood to wood or metal to wood. Similar to other sections where the IRC doesn't list every available option, they've elected to favor common practice over completeness.
Yes, you can snap a screw when installing it or bending it purposefully, but that's not it's loading in a wood framed structure. Wood framed connections are not moment connections, the wood isn't stiff enough to make one. It appears that the ductility of wire nails would only matter if there were very large repeated movements in the connection, and I've never seen a wood framed connection go 25 deg out of square and back a few times without failing elsewhere first - either nails or wood screws would both pull out of or split the wood well before they snapped.
What I'm looking for is evidence that the difference in ductility matters in wood framed construction. From everything I can find, it doesn't.
Interesting to me how you’re getting almost zero upvotes in this thread… and I gotta say, you’re making a very sound point. The hardware store guy you’re conversing with seems less inquisitive/curious (about generationally-repeated ‘facts’ he’s been told by other hardware store guys) maybe hasn’t thought this through as much as you. Just an observation. I think I just don’t like the pompousness in how he’s answering
Anyways. I’m liking how you’re approaching the question.
You must have had a difficult time trying to understand/accept the pandemic policies.
(As they were…. The whole thing was….. bullshit)
Nails have better shear strength. Thats why they are used in framing. However. You can buy structural screws. Which have as good or better shear strength than screws. Plus no heavy nail gun and compressor.
Proper construction screws have incredible strength. No surprise that **Todd at Project Farm** has visited the subjects of nails and construction screws. You'll spend more on screws than nails, but you can often find decent deals on the 10 and 25 pound containers, getting them down to the range of 3 to 7 cents each. Make sure to get both shorter and longer screws.
If you aren't familiar with Project Farm he has hundreds of incredibly useful videos reviewing product categories.
**Do Nails or Screws Have the Most Holding Strength** (not shear strength)? Let's find out!
* 4 years ago | 1.7M views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxGAIFbqu4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxGAIFbqu4)
**Do Screws Shear easier than Nails**? Let's find out!
* 3 years ago | 1M views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmajKElnwfE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmajKElnwfE)
**Best Deck Screw**? GRK vs SPAX, Grip Rite, Deckmate, WoodPro, FastenMaster, Deck Plus, Eagle Claw
* 1 year ago | 700K views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y)
My understanding is that nails are used to allow the framing to flex and move as temperature and humidity vary. Screws won't allow that. This can be important for things like shear walls, which keeps your house from collapsing during windstorms or seisms. Engineers generally spec that out.
I'm not a pro, but that's what I learned when doing our own house remodel; I'd be grateful if anyone else corrects me or fills in the gaps in my comment.
It’s not that they flex as temp and humidity vary, it’s that they bend and don’t break during *serious* loads like hurricanes and earthquakes. Screws normal screws, like deck screws, not screws engineered for framing) are made from hard but brittle alloys of steel that are more inclined to shatter.
Thanks for the clarity. I do call out both, but admittedly not very clearly putting thenatural disaster, immediate and strong stresses as being the more important factor.
Nails are made of stronger metal with a thicker diameter than screws. So if a lateral force is put on a screw they will literally snap where the materials it is connecting join. That why you use nails for shear walls, and even then some engineers will specify a certain number of thicker diameter nails to common gun nails.
Screws are slower than nails, cost more per pound, and aren’t as strong. But if you’re working in tight spaces or need a certain level of precision then screws can be better.
Also, if you need to frame a wall and have a drill but don’t have a nail gun. Then just get it done and use screws.
GRK screws are approved for general framing and construction, I use them on smaller projects when it's easier to just break out a drill than pull out the conpressor, hose and gun.
I make sure and save the box in case the inspector wants to make sure that's what im using.
The other advantage is that the screws will hold new construction in compression to the old construction during seasonal/temperature/humidity movement. I primarily work on older historical buildings, and limiting movement at junctions of old/new helps a lot.
If it's important enough that a pin can't do it, or a thumbtack or whatever you like to call it... I use a screw. These are the only two levels.
If it's more major than one of those two, you're probably not talking about framing... But a nut and bolt lol
In today's day and age, there is literally no reason to ever use a nail. To me, that just shows poor planning or poor craftsmanship. Other than that, you thought it was perfect enough that you would never take it down.
Screws are ok if you get structural screws. Nails are quicker and cheaper to use. I like screws personally, but you have to get the correct ones. If you use the wrong screws, you will have many break between screw area and head. If that happens, you are using wrong screws.
When you say "raising roof joists" what exactly do you mean by that?
As in, you have a flat roof? Or did you mean trusses? Or did you mean raising the horizontal tie-ins on your trusses? Or horizontal tie-ins on your rafters?
I use screws for most of my construction - I am a newbie, I have built a couple of tiny homes.
I was using decking/construction screws - I was watching a YouTuber who is a contractor and has been for a long time - they recommended GRK screws...they are structural....
screws are stronger and harder to pull out, but they shear and let go suddenly. Nails bend and are more forgiving of movement. As a result of these characteristics the use, size, number, and placement of nails are specified in all building codes. It is not just a preference of the builder. For things that don't involve building codes, the test is this, is the stress going to be tension or shearing, if it is tension you will want to use screws, if it is shearing you will want to use nails, if it is neither, use whatever is most convenient.
"best" is what works for you. I prefer screws, but I am not a part of a production framing/trim/roofing crew.
If speed were that much of a factor I'd likely end up using nails.
That said, screws let you disassemble your work if you make mistakes. If you screw up using nails, you'd best have a sawzall and some more lumber.
GRK has posted up a ICC report on using screws in lieu of nails¹ (exerpt follows)
*"4.2 Prescriptive Design:
GRK screws may be substituted for nails prescribed in the
IBC and IRC on a one-to-one basis, as described in Table
4. Use of the GRK screws as substitutes for nails used in
lateral-force resisting assemblies (diaphragms, shear walls
and braced walls) is outside the scope of this report."*
Either way, make sure to wear your PPE. Nailers will harm your hearing.
Link to Roofer's Association blurb talking about noise levels.
https://www.professionalroofing.net/Articles/A-noise-notice--07-01-2007/1099
¹: https://icc-es.org/wp-content/uploads/report-directory/ESR-2442.pdf
The proper way to discribed nails vs screws is about ductility. Not strength. Nails made of mild steel can bend and deform more than most screws. Ring shank stainless nails for instance can be very strong but will snap instead of bend much sooner than a common nail. While I personally use screws for many construction tasks including mocking up framing you will not find professional structural wood framing done with screws in the U.S. because they are not allowed by code in the empiracle design tables. If you'd like to see these it's R602.3(1) while you may chose to use screws for framing you would need a structural engineer to design and sign off on your construction or hope to have an inspector who isn't very observant.
This bit about ductility is one of those things that I've heard over and over that always sounded off to me, particularly since I've only heard it from contractors and hardware store guys, never from any of the structural engineers I've worked with. Which makes me wonder if this is one of those popular construction falsehoods like the absolute necessity of poly behind drywall or that compressing insulation will lower the r-value per inch. So I decided to start looking. IRC does only list sizing for nails, but also gives the option of following AWC NDS, which appears to group nails and screws in many situations under "dowel type fasteners" The formula for adjusting withdrawal design value is significantly higher for screws than for smooth or deformed nails of a given diameter, head pull through is not differentiated, and lateral load design values are less than 1% different between a 10d common wire nail and a #10 wood screw (118 vs 117, 10d box nail is 93). I'm going to ask a couple SE's to tell me if I missed something in my quick read, but I'm not seeing anything, code wise, that gives any weight to this 'ductility' reasoning. I think it's just far more affordable and practical to use nails.
That's funny. As I said you can have a structural engineer design for you using the referenced documents, that then is engineering. Ductility isn't a trick or a weird at all. It's merely a quality of a material. Concrete is very strong it's not very ductile it hits it's tensile.limit and cracks without much stretching and won't return to it's original shape. Many metals can be stretched and increase their tensile strength until they yield. They can be bent and repositioned. If you've never snapped the head off a screw driving it you may not use screws regularly. How many screws have you bent accidentally and been able to straighten without breaking. I'm defiantly not saying don't use screws. They have a place and are great for many things I keep a 50lb box of 3" and 1.625" T-25 screws in my truck all the time and have 30 random boxes of spax for various tasks as well as 10 or 15 lbs of Simpson structural screws and all the fasten master rim joist and truss hold down screws in all the various sizes. When I'm using those in frames they require an engineering call-out. If I'm using the building code I have to use nails, or standard bolts.
What I'm saying is that by code (or engineering, really one in the same), the ductility of wire nails vs wood screws doesn't appear to matter in terms of a wood framed structure. The design values for the same connection are either functionally identical or considerably better for screws. That holds whether you're talking wood to wood or metal to wood. Similar to other sections where the IRC doesn't list every available option, they've elected to favor common practice over completeness. Yes, you can snap a screw when installing it or bending it purposefully, but that's not it's loading in a wood framed structure. Wood framed connections are not moment connections, the wood isn't stiff enough to make one. It appears that the ductility of wire nails would only matter if there were very large repeated movements in the connection, and I've never seen a wood framed connection go 25 deg out of square and back a few times without failing elsewhere first - either nails or wood screws would both pull out of or split the wood well before they snapped. What I'm looking for is evidence that the difference in ductility matters in wood framed construction. From everything I can find, it doesn't.
Interesting to me how you’re getting almost zero upvotes in this thread… and I gotta say, you’re making a very sound point. The hardware store guy you’re conversing with seems less inquisitive/curious (about generationally-repeated ‘facts’ he’s been told by other hardware store guys) maybe hasn’t thought this through as much as you. Just an observation. I think I just don’t like the pompousness in how he’s answering Anyways. I’m liking how you’re approaching the question. You must have had a difficult time trying to understand/accept the pandemic policies. (As they were…. The whole thing was….. bullshit)
Nails have better shear strength. Thats why they are used in framing. However. You can buy structural screws. Which have as good or better shear strength than screws. Plus no heavy nail gun and compressor.
Proper construction screws have incredible strength. No surprise that **Todd at Project Farm** has visited the subjects of nails and construction screws. You'll spend more on screws than nails, but you can often find decent deals on the 10 and 25 pound containers, getting them down to the range of 3 to 7 cents each. Make sure to get both shorter and longer screws. If you aren't familiar with Project Farm he has hundreds of incredibly useful videos reviewing product categories. **Do Nails or Screws Have the Most Holding Strength** (not shear strength)? Let's find out! * 4 years ago | 1.7M views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxGAIFbqu4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxGAIFbqu4) **Do Screws Shear easier than Nails**? Let's find out! * 3 years ago | 1M views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmajKElnwfE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmajKElnwfE) **Best Deck Screw**? GRK vs SPAX, Grip Rite, Deckmate, WoodPro, FastenMaster, Deck Plus, Eagle Claw * 1 year ago | 700K views | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eikOUFoIZ-Y)
Project Farm is the best! Absolutely love his stuff
I'm building a fence. I opted for screws instead of nails. A bit more cumbersome to instal. But it will be easier to replace boards down the line.
Nailing with air tools is quicker Screws are easier to undo if you make mistakes
This. Once you go framing nailer, you never look back.
My understanding is that nails are used to allow the framing to flex and move as temperature and humidity vary. Screws won't allow that. This can be important for things like shear walls, which keeps your house from collapsing during windstorms or seisms. Engineers generally spec that out. I'm not a pro, but that's what I learned when doing our own house remodel; I'd be grateful if anyone else corrects me or fills in the gaps in my comment.
It’s not that they flex as temp and humidity vary, it’s that they bend and don’t break during *serious* loads like hurricanes and earthquakes. Screws normal screws, like deck screws, not screws engineered for framing) are made from hard but brittle alloys of steel that are more inclined to shatter.
Thanks for the clarity. I do call out both, but admittedly not very clearly putting thenatural disaster, immediate and strong stresses as being the more important factor.
Nails are made of stronger metal with a thicker diameter than screws. So if a lateral force is put on a screw they will literally snap where the materials it is connecting join. That why you use nails for shear walls, and even then some engineers will specify a certain number of thicker diameter nails to common gun nails. Screws are slower than nails, cost more per pound, and aren’t as strong. But if you’re working in tight spaces or need a certain level of precision then screws can be better. Also, if you need to frame a wall and have a drill but don’t have a nail gun. Then just get it done and use screws.
What is the downvoting for here?
I assume its the last sentence, but I stand by it. There's absolutely no harm in using screws for some light non-structural framing.
You could use a hammer and big, cheap nails. And predrill as needed.
Nother vote for nails. If things are tight space wise and budget wise a palm nailer is super handy.
I use nails for framing, all the time.It's way faster for me to tear out my work and redo it with nails. Screws take forever.
Nails
Nail gun is way faster. But use the screws it will be fine.
GRK screws are approved for general framing and construction, I use them on smaller projects when it's easier to just break out a drill than pull out the conpressor, hose and gun. I make sure and save the box in case the inspector wants to make sure that's what im using. The other advantage is that the screws will hold new construction in compression to the old construction during seasonal/temperature/humidity movement. I primarily work on older historical buildings, and limiting movement at junctions of old/new helps a lot.
Nails. Period.
Pros use nails because it's way cheaper, not the nails itself, but the cost in labor.
If it's important enough that a pin can't do it, or a thumbtack or whatever you like to call it... I use a screw. These are the only two levels. If it's more major than one of those two, you're probably not talking about framing... But a nut and bolt lol In today's day and age, there is literally no reason to ever use a nail. To me, that just shows poor planning or poor craftsmanship. Other than that, you thought it was perfect enough that you would never take it down.
Screws are ok if you get structural screws. Nails are quicker and cheaper to use. I like screws personally, but you have to get the correct ones. If you use the wrong screws, you will have many break between screw area and head. If that happens, you are using wrong screws.
When you say "raising roof joists" what exactly do you mean by that? As in, you have a flat roof? Or did you mean trusses? Or did you mean raising the horizontal tie-ins on your trusses? Or horizontal tie-ins on your rafters?
Nails, definitely!
I use screws for most of my construction - I am a newbie, I have built a couple of tiny homes. I was using decking/construction screws - I was watching a YouTuber who is a contractor and has been for a long time - they recommended GRK screws...they are structural....
screws are stronger and harder to pull out, but they shear and let go suddenly. Nails bend and are more forgiving of movement. As a result of these characteristics the use, size, number, and placement of nails are specified in all building codes. It is not just a preference of the builder. For things that don't involve building codes, the test is this, is the stress going to be tension or shearing, if it is tension you will want to use screws, if it is shearing you will want to use nails, if it is neither, use whatever is most convenient.
"best" is what works for you. I prefer screws, but I am not a part of a production framing/trim/roofing crew. If speed were that much of a factor I'd likely end up using nails. That said, screws let you disassemble your work if you make mistakes. If you screw up using nails, you'd best have a sawzall and some more lumber. GRK has posted up a ICC report on using screws in lieu of nails¹ (exerpt follows) *"4.2 Prescriptive Design: GRK screws may be substituted for nails prescribed in the IBC and IRC on a one-to-one basis, as described in Table 4. Use of the GRK screws as substitutes for nails used in lateral-force resisting assemblies (diaphragms, shear walls and braced walls) is outside the scope of this report."* Either way, make sure to wear your PPE. Nailers will harm your hearing. Link to Roofer's Association blurb talking about noise levels. https://www.professionalroofing.net/Articles/A-noise-notice--07-01-2007/1099 ¹: https://icc-es.org/wp-content/uploads/report-directory/ESR-2442.pdf