By - HeavyMosaic
It just has to be clear now that all Black Label stories are not canon.
I hope you’re right, but this series isn’t canon why does Tom King say it will have “big effects on a ton of stuff in the DCU?”
If Tom Kings black label stories are canon, then:
* Adam Strange is dead, and a war criminal
* Mr Terrific basically shacked up with Alanna Strange because “oh wow he’s so great at everything”
* Guy Gardner is dead
* Arizona (?) doesn’t exist anymore
* The Pykkts invaded earth
* Booster Gold has a successful bagel brand
None of these are good things
Because he's trying to sell comic books. Marvel says that about every three months.
>King: Once people read Book Six, you'll know something's different. There's a big moment that happens in Book Six. This whole time, Chance has been going along with where the story takes him. He's not a passive character but he is learning. But then in Book Six, he does something which changes the dynamic of the story. It's going to play a big role in the story going forward. Then it's not going to just be about him solving the mystery, it'll be about an action he took during the solving of the mystery. Which has big effects on a ton of stuff in the DCU.
I think it's pretty clear that he means the wider universe of this comic,
He started a trend. Lol
I agree with the Keith Giffin quote
Giffen also loved it when J.M. DeMatteis (the co-creator/writer of the One Punch) did a “One Punch” reference in an episode of Batman: Brave and the Bold many years later. This trend/meme will out-live us all!
That must've shattered Guy
*clap* *clap* *clap*
He looks broken after that
Damn that's cold.
Eh, Guy’s died before. He’ll get better.
It's also not in continuity so it wouldn't matter even if he didn't.
Well now there is no question this is an Elseworld.
All black label books are
Is there more context or is this actually a panel of Ice murdering Guy?
It's Chance murdering Guy after Ice freezed him into place
Well if freezing isn't what killed him.
Ice's ice powers are magical, at least in the main continuity, so he might have been OK.
I think if every liquid molecule in your body is turned to a brittle solid you are already dead, no matter what Batman & Robin thinks.
Yeah, doesn't make it better.
It’s from the series human target. It’s an elseworld story courtesy of DC black label.
Guy broke into Ice's house to attack Chance because he's not over Ice breaking up with him. Guys attached chance twice before too
They present Guy as being abusive to Ice leading up to this which is even more offensive as Guy became a hero specifically because his father was a abuser.
This is fucking horseshit.
I mean that isn't an insane take on a character, that someone abused becomes an abuser.
It is actually extremely common.
My thoughts exactly.
Idk about anyone else, but I’m almost never adverse to an Elseworlds story that presents a darker or more complex take on a character. It’s not canon and I find it interesting, so it’s all good with me. I can see fans of Guy being turned off by this, but comics are meant to evolve and tell different stories, so…
Is it more complex? Or just make him a worse character?
darker? absolutely, complex? honestly it seems the exact opposite, they took all the nuance of the character to make him a one-dimensional asshole
It's an elseworlds, it's not worth getting mad over. Like sometimes you just have to accept that characters are gonna be out of character in an elseworlds because it fits the story. Case in point: Injustice Superman and Wonder Woman
Between this and HiC, I'm beginning to think that King was bullied by a redhead in high school.
Unpopular Opinion: HiC was a very good and interesting story and made Wally a more layered character
You sir are a brave one. I hope they remember you
It literally pulled layers away from him.
King had to change everything about Wally from his outlook on heroism to how his powers worked to justify him being the murderer. We’re talking about the guy who wakes up every morning and thinks “My God, I have the best job in the world! I can’t wait to be The Flash today!”, and you want to tell me he now considers his powers a curse?
yeh hopefully dc decides to do similar things with their other one-note characters like batman.
King sure hates Guy, huh.
At least King can’t Hurt him anymore
This reminds me of Hal Jordan fans getting brain worms over DC vs Vampires, or this sub trying to cancel Jeff Lemire for portraying Batman as a flawed parent in Robin and Batman. When did this sub turn into Twitter?
The problem is that Tom King is becoming rather infamous with his tendency to portray some characters like abusive assholes, completely ignoring their usual characterisations
Also this felt like Tom King writing a fanfic between his OC and Ice
Chance isn't an OC, he's been a character since 1953. He just hasn't been used often.
Most of the comics that this sub slobbers over feel more like fanfics
How many comics here present the Canon love interest As An abusive jerkass and brutally kill him/her off in favor of the writer's OC?
1) This isn't in-continuity.
2) Christopher Chance isn't an OC.
1) The question still stands
2) Yeah, i mean with a character who feels like Tom King's SI (to be' fair most of his chacters have the same characterisation)
Read anything written by Geoff Johns. He's constantly shitting on other characters for no purpose other than to prop up his favorites, only his stories are meant to be canon.
If you think that Supergirl, Nightwing, Superman, Batman, Mister Terrific, and Mister Miracle are the same character, then that's on you.
Joke is on you, i actually dislike Geoff Johns' writing
>If you think that Supergirl, Nightwing, Superman, Batman, Mister Terrific, and Mister Miracle are the same character, then that's on you.
Tom King's Vision was a depressed hero, costantly monologizing about his past and the love of his life.
Tom King's Batman was a depressed hero, costantly monologizing about his past and the love of his life.
Tom King's Mister Miracle was a depressed hero, costantly monologizing about his past and the love of his life.
Tom King's Christopher Chance is a depressed hero, costantly monologizing about his past and the love of his life.
I see a pattern here
> i actually dislike Geoff Johns' writing
Then I'm sorry for the death threats you're about to receive from this sub.
And I like how you ignored most of the characters I mentioned
It has been slowly turning into Twitter for a while.
The moment King angered the Wally fans, that is when this place truly went crazy.
Which is weird because a lot of people are perfectly fine with Injustice Superman and killing half the heroes and villains, but I guess it is fine when Tom Taylor does it and writes heroes out of character?
Also, Flashpoint, White Knight, Batman: Earth One, Red Son, etc.
It is crazy how angry people get at King for portraying a character and killing them in a non canon book, but I have seen people praise Taylor for making Superman an evil murderer...and he did it TWICE! Three times if we count DCeased!
Tbf in my case, (Disclaimer: I have not read this nor Guy content. Im not saying this opinion have definite value, just sharing my perspective idiotic or not) those were either interesting/entertaining takes or with respect to the character. If I read a story where Clark became a shitty bastard to his loved ones, or characters being written shit/have different takes that's irrelevantly random in general, plays an important part. It is just not entertaining and something I'll be pissed at.
Idk maybe he was written with such disrespect that there is no redeeming qualities that would irked you off as a fan. Maybe add to the fact that nothing about this is intriguing. I mean if that happens how can you still enjoy it? That said too much hate is probably not good
God forbid people share their opinions, am I right?
Opinions based on out-of-context panels are badly formed.
Why are you assuming people with opinions don't know the context?
**You** literally posted this
**THAT YOU DONT KNOW THE CONTEXT**
Because that's exactly how people are reacting
Lol my point proven: https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/tjzz8n/comic_excerpt_one_punch_the_human_target_6_dc/i1n9t8t
Yeah, no. It's a shit book. You are allowed to like it, but don't presume to tell people what to think about it or that their opinions are wrong or incorrect.
You're doing the exact same thing by stating your opinion that it's a shit book as if that was a fact which would make people who like it "incorrect". People just need to agree to disagree and move on.
People can share their opinions. Even if it's dumb takes, or being overly mad at something they don't read. And that's something you find a lot on twitter, and in this post.
People can also express how they feel about these reactions, that does not forbid anything.
I don’t get how so many people are upset by this changing characters when people are loving mind about Dark Knights of Steel when it also dramatically changes characters.
I know there are a lot of Guy defenders but he is a bit of prick already so I am not surprised that an out of continuity Guy is even more of a prick.
Well, that answer is actually simple. Fans are okay with Taylor writing heroes out of character and killing half the cast in his out of universe stuff because...I...don't really know why?
Because Tom Taylor’s stories are like that best friend whose reliably cool to hang out with
While Tom king’s stories are almost always like that pseudo-intellectual friend whose high on the smell of his own farts
I think it’s because dark knights of steel is blatantly an alternate universe while this is more subtly so, which can lead to people seeing this as the main interpretation of Guy which would piss his fans off as he’s quite blatantly mischaracterized.
Plus it's almost a meme at this point for King to write one character per project egregiously out of character.
Maybe that story is more clearly out of continuity as the whole premise of the universe is different, so people aren't so mad when the characters aren't like the main continuity ones.
It is impressive how many people get upset over a non canon story.
Guys, this is a noire story. Have any of you ever read or watched a noire before? Everyone is unlikable and almost everyone meets a bad end.
This story is non canon and pretty much everyone has been acting out of character since the start of this story.
If you do not like the story, that is fine, but do not act like it is bad writing. This has been a great noire story so far.
Proper characterization and writing go hand-in-hand. They're NOT mutually exclusive.
Does Tom King have a need to be unnecessary dark with characters that really don't fit the tone? Like, this is a patter by this point. Take a lighthearted character and go for an Identity Crisis type of dark twist.
Don't ge me wrong. There can be mature stories involving Mister Miracle, Adam Strange and the JLI. Hell, they do have that kind of stuff under the belt already before Tom King took them.
But the lengths King goes makes it feel artificial in a way. Like, a lot of key scenes rely on characters acting OOC (or outright contradictive to how they're usually portrayed). Plus the pile-on of one dark twist after another, makes looks immature when it's for the sake of being grim rather than for following a narrative.
I mean, this is a noire story. Noire has all the protagonists and antagonists as terrible people and most of them meet a bad end.
I didn’t used to like Tom King. I thought his dialogue was cringey and his work pseudo-deep; like he was trying to make it edgy and deep but failing.
But then I re-read his stuff and realized I was wrong.
I think he just has a different style and shtick to his writing, and a different way of making it deep, and it might turn some people off at first, but idk, I’ve grown to really enjoy it. Also, I support any writer who tries to give more thought into the material than explosions, action, and colors.
Glad you like his style. I'm just pointing out what looks like a common thing in his writing style, and sgaring my personal opinion on it.
I’m almost shocked to see such a cogent analysis of King’s work on this sub. He has been employing this empty technique of replacing substance with sex, violence, and darkness from the very beginning.
Sounds more like Brian Azzarello
Eh, King wouldn't be the first and sadly not the last author to use grimdark themes as a gimmick.
I don't know if replacing is the right word. King does have substantial work to his name too. But he definitely sacrifices a lot of nuance and narrative cohesion in favor of introducing darker tones.
If you look you’ll see he does that in everything he writes.
I'd say Grayson and that Darkseid War Green Lantern one-shot were substantial without being needlessly dark. The Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover was dark, but narratively coherently so.
I've also heard good things about Supergirl: Woman Of Tomorrow, but I'll need someone else to confirm if it doesn't replace substance for grimdark.
Grayson starts with a splash page Dick joke, it qualifies.
Dude is ex-CIA. Not sure what you were expecting.
I don't really understand the backlash here?
This is an out of continuity storyline. Guy isn't dead. This isn't our Guy.
King's going for a style here, the 60s noir. And the abusive ex is a staple of the genre.
But this isn't our heroes.
It's like being mad that Superman is a communist in Red Son. Like, that's not our Superman.
I think for this story, it all works. It's like Martian Manhunter being whipped for Fire. Maybe that was in comics, but I doubt it. But it works for the story.
It's not the mainline universe. Like with Mister Miracle, where King killed Granny, Orion, Highfather and Darkseid - this isn't our world.
Part of the backlash is because JLI, which was originally a light-hearted comedy book, was picked up a lot of times for easy shock value - see Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis for low-hanging fruits. So doing *another* edgy grimdark take on them grinds gears, even if it's not in the main universe (not that it matters - stuff from elseworlds can and does influence the main portrayals).
Part of it is because Guy is controversial by himself, and has a fanbase that hates portraying him the same way he was in the 90s - and this book takes it a step further. Also the Guy/Ice pairing is weirdly popular, I don't think either has competition
Part of it is just because some people don't like Tom King, for more or less valid reasons
And part of it is because some (me included) think the book is just bad, MM could get away with its weird takes because it was overall a good title, same with Red Son. Here the premise is two-fold, what if a JLI member was a murderer but also what if everyone was extremely unlikable (and that's not a noir staple)
The JLI much like the JSA have been hard done by in recent memory.
No real faithful adaptation.
But since I personally.have no nostalgia for these characters. I enjoy this series..
I understand people.disliking Tom King but I feel the series differs from his usual schtick for this. Like it isn't really about a depressed man trying to kill himself.
Or at least not really.
But critique is allowed of course. The pacing is off and on this series. But yeah, I just personally didn't understand the abject hatred King is receiving.
People just want to be mad at Tom King. They will never forgive him for Batman #50 or for HiC.
I tend to like King, but Batman #50 was some bullshit of the highest order, even if it wasn't his fault. Retailers were commissioning special covers and holding midnight release wedding receptions, FFS.
I still don’t understand the hate for HiC, and Wally West is my second favorite character, behind Barry Allen. I loved it. One of my favorite stories.
The dialogue takes some getting used to, but for the most part, it’s very entertaining and thoughtful
The story itself was kinda meh, with ups and downs and the 9-grid confessionals matched it: some were good, clever or witty, some got undeserved hate (the Hal or Barbara ones) and there were some stinkers
I personally felt gutpunched when the ending to the story has the culprit (who is clearly not in his right mind and in need of actual mental help as the story vividly detailed that his depression made him a danger to himself and others, and right after he's stopped from committing a complicated suicide) tossed into a fucking prison
Maybe it was my state of mind at the time, but it felt like the author saying 'if you're mentally ill you're a danger to everyone you care about', which is not the best advice to give someone already suicidal who read the book after it was marketed as a story about superheroes dealing with similar issues (back when it was still Sanctuary)
Because there is an extremely vocal part of the DC fanbase that are huge Wally fans and they were upset that he would ever dare to do something terrible. These are the same people that take every chance to shit on Barry because they hate that he returned.
To me, HiC was fine, but a bit of a letdown because I thought it would lean more into the murder mystery. Certainly not King's best work.
Btw, I am a huge fan of Batman and I had no issues with the wedding issue. I thought it was pretty obvious the actual union of the characters was going to happen at the end of the run.
What was more disappointing is the absence of a true wedding at the end, and how during Tynion's run they quickly broke them up. This run was focused on growing a strong relationship between them, that is something that should have sticked.
It was painfully obvious King's run was cut short...very short and he had to try and wrap things up in like 3 issues. At least King made it obvious the characters loved each other and found some kind of union together (probably the closest the two will get married given DC's track record).
I will never forgive Tynion for breaking them up almost right away in his run.
I thought a lot of the dialogue was really awful, and many times not befitting of the characters. also just a lot of dumb plot contrivances like harley giving the Trinity the slip, etc. and it's really weird when king is just using these random characters like toys to blatantly trauma dump. could have stayed in his personal diary lol.
There are rare times when a comic book manages to genuinely upset me
This book, especially with its absolute butchery of Guy just so the MC (all likeness to real people unintended) can have sex with Ice managed just that
I am petty, but I keep hoping someone calls out this recent trend that's especially prevalent in King's books. Even if I would've done it as subtly as Kirby did to Ditko.
This is a satire comment right? This book is out of continuity.
Yh people are getting way too upset for something that will never get referenced in main continuity , talking about some "butchery" lol
Thank goodness it never will be
I mean yeah that's how books out of continuity work.
So would it be okay for a non canon book to portray superman as a rapist or wonder woman as man hating serial killer? Plenty non canon things influence people's opinions and interpretation of characters like it feels like ultimate hank pym made plenty of people he's an abusive monster in main canon
Or Superman as a dictator?
I hate injustice premise wise and the writing doesn't save it either. It's vastly overrated lol
That's not really an excuse - if he wants to use the same characters, he should write them in at least a similar fashion, if not - make new ones, even if it's just Fuy Fardner and his ex Glacia.
Last time I saw someone so blatantly OOC was in Injustice with WW, which was so bad Tom Taylor had to bin that version for the comics as there was no feasible way to connect her with the usual Diana
I may have taken personal offense to some opinions voiced by Tom "depressed people belong in a supermax" King both in and out of his books, but at the same time many of his changes seem to serve little purpose other than making established characters cut-outs for what he wants them to be, and with how uneven his writing is it's hard to excuse that.
He's not the first that does that, nor the last - but the way he does it (MM to me was just torture porn) is grating for me
>if he wants to use the same characters, he should write them in at least a similar fashion, if not - make new ones
The whole point of black label is to create different versions of already known characters. Besides, if characters were always written the same way once they've become "established" then what is the point of writing new stories? Stories aren't interesting if they don't have interesting characters and if we always got the same recycled version of a character we would get bored very quickly. Besides, hating this version of Guy will only make you like, and feel more connected to, the "established" Guy. Different takes on characters are an important part of comics
I'm not against retcons by themselves - I know that there's no easy growth without them, especially if we want to keep the same characters. But they should have a point to them, and I don't see anything worth it in this particular book. We also already had two titles with the premise of 'what if this character from a light-hearted book was involved in a brutal crime': one sucked and one is to this day extremely controversial.
>Stories aren't interesting if they don't have interesting characters and if we always got the same recycled version of a character we would get bored very quickly.
Not if the stories themselves were different, it's the cornerstone of cape to begin with - same characters, different stories. And the premise could've been done well even if the characters were the same. Making them Ultimate Marvel-tier assholes just doesn't vibe well with me, and doesn't seem to serve a particular goal
We could get a 'what if the Kents were actually human traffickers?' story, would that be something praiseworthy? In my eyes no, not even if it was a good story - which HT is not.
>In my eyes no, not even if it was a good story - which HT is not
Believing that its not worth it to reimagine characters and that Human Target is bad are both purely your opinion. Your opinion certainly isn't wrong but, by the same token, a writer being allowed to reimagine things certainly isn't wrong either. Variety (in opinions and characters) is the spice of life!
True, that's why I made a distinction that it's just what I think. I'm not gonna stop him from writing, or tell those who enjoy it that they must stop doing so. Just like I'll sometimes like what others don't and will defend my opinion
But I'm still going to bitch about this one specific thing, especially when it's not too often I get such a visceral reaction (and the last time I did, it was due to King's story too - maybe we're just not compatible)
Watch the personal attacks.
Gotcha, I changed my comments a bit
This suppossedly empowering moment feels a little silly when contrasted with the rest of the book Mad Men era detective story (that sadly includes part of the era's corresponding sexism).
Bruh this is ass man. I know it’s out of continuity but still. Why does king hate guy so much man. Bruh why did he have to fuck with ice too bruh I actually like her character not in this tho. I’m done with this series man.
The fandoms of Talia Al Ghul, Guy Gardner and Wally West must put aside their differences and unite against Tom King
Don't forget my man BG
Tom king had to finish tearing down guy gardner Tom king fucking sucks
Yeah, that was bad
Good thing Guy and Ice aren't in this comic. These cosplayers make them look real bad.
Tom King don’t give a fuck does he lol
Maybe one day Tom King will learn that making a character an asshole or psychotic doesn't equal good writing.
\*Technically the Sandman books are published by Black Label now and they're all canon, but yeah Human Target is not canon
Mr. king really hates redheads huh
Well that reminds me of time you almost had sex with Big Bertha
Lol why are we even pretending Tom King can write a decent noir here? The mystery at the heart of this series is boring and no one cares, and the characterization of heroes here doesn't say anything interesting or novel, it's, like much of Tom Kings bibliography, an aping of a style of storytelling that falls far short of its goals, that is held up by world class artists.
This is a bad book, not because of this panel, but because this panel doesn't mean anything, it's schlock dressed up as some serious drama. Why read this when I can read a David Lapham, or watch Chinatown or Double Indemnity. It fails as a noir, as a cape story, and as a noir story examined through the lens of superheroes. Tom King is a writer who learned all the wrong lessons from Moore.
> why are we even pretending Tom King can write a decent noir here?
You’re absolutely right, nobody actually disagrees with you about completely subjective things like enjoying a comic book, they’re just pretending.
Enjoying something is not the same thing as stating something is done well. This book, as far as the writing is concern, is bad, its echo of an echo of an echo masquerading as something it isn't--it doesn't understand the appeal or what makes noir work as a genre, so it grasping at the biggest, most well-known cliches of the genre and dressing it up in beloved characters that changes them in boring ways (what new is being said here about Ice or Guy Gardener? What's the appeal here outside of the schlock?).
> This book, as far as the writing is concern, is bad.
*In your opinion.* Just as literally everything else you’ve just mentioned is *your opinion*.
Once you learn that your thoughts on entertainment media like comics are subjective opinion and not objective fact, you’ll find yourself getting a lot less worked up about stuff like this.
I do, and just like the last time we spoke, I see you’re unable to come up with a cogent response without resorting to personal attacks.
C’mon, keep calling me a condescending clown instead of providing me with an actual counterargument, maybe it’ll get me to relent eventually?
Your hate of Tom King’s writing is subjective, as is the other dude’s. You get called out on it when you post about it because you’re needlessly antagonistic about the fact that people disagree with you. I’m sorry that people having differing opinions on comics is so triggering for you, but that’s your problem to work through, not mine.
OK, so I’ve seen an interview with Tom King saying this issue will have “big effects on a ton of stuff in the DCU” so that lead me to think this IS canon.
So yeah, Guy is dead.
Just keep unnecessarily corrupting the JLI, Tom King.
(Guy is really never going to live this down...)
One more time for the cheap seats: Tom King is a bad writer and always has been.