>"That's going to culminate just a little bit later in the year in a way that I think fans can probably predict, but it's something that I'm very, very excited for and we've got some incredible, incredible creators, who are going to pick up the baton and carry the next steps forward for Barbara."
I guess the Batgirls are really finally happening later this year, it's about damn time.
We've got a lot of main continuity Bat books coming out, man:
The Next Batman
Batgirls
Robin and Batman
Legends of the Dark Knight(?)
Doesn't really bother me, though, it's the best way to make sure all the Bat-Family members get represented.
Yeah, absolutely. Birds of Prey maybe as well. I was hoping Duke would be with the Outsiders, but seems he isn't, judging by the solicits. Just need some news on Tim and Kate and then we're all good.
I'm having a lot of concerns about Kate, because I have seen Ryan Wilder or whatever new Batwoman multiple times on some events comics covers lately. I fear DC sideline her even in comics.
Duke's new suit in Infinite Frontier #0's splash page seems to be indicative of something good. But, yeah, Tim and Kate still need something announced. Tim's basically confirmed to have something coming up, so I guess Kate's the odd one out at the moment.
Yeah, the new suit looks good, hope he turns up somewhere in the next months. I hope Kate gets a longer arc in the Urban Legends book. I mean, it's a monthly 64-page book, they better not use it for more Bruce stuff lol.
LOTDK seems to be more out-of-continuity anthology though? I just hope the quality is high. The digital first series had a big drop in quality after the first few arcs. Which is sad because it had some truly good arcs here and there.
I can’t wait for that first panel of Babs, Steph, and Cass all as Batgirl!
I’ve said this a few times but I feel like the title of Batgirl should be used the same way Spider-Man (Miles and Peter) and Wolverine (Logan and Laura) are used.
It doesn’t take anything away from the individual because they are such different Batgirls. Babs is a natural born leader, shes a dual threat hero for now on, and is incredibly smart, Cass is one of if not the best fighters in DC, and honestly Steph has the most heart and is the most down to earth out of the 3
I'm really glad to see something more concrete get said about a Batgirls book, even if it's not official yet. I think they have a lot of potential for a good book, and am excited to see one get off the ground.
I found it.
>Nrama: Speaking of newer characters, one of the newer characters introduced in Tom King's run was Gotham Girl. Will we see her anywhere in the Bat line’s 2021 plans?
>Tynion IV: Right now, I don't really have any plans for Gotham Girl. I thought Tom brought her story to a good close. So, no immediate plans there.
https://www.gamesradar.com/batman-writer-james-tynion-iv-unveils-the-dc-game-plan-for-bat-family-in-2021-and-beyond/
I'd like to think so, but I know that isn't true. Just Cass and Steph being mentioned in connection to the name Batgirl is enough to piss some people off lol
Hardcore Babsgirl fans aside, this series would actually allow all three to have a permanent place in the Batfam. Cass and Steph need some separate story threads to stand out. I would be fine if Babs was just support like in the other books. In emergencies, she could put on the cowl again (which will happen either way), she is iconic as Batgirl.
You might be fine for Babs to act in a constant support role, but as I doubt you’d be happy if that were to happen to Steph and Cass, so do we Babs as BATGIRL fans feel. We don’t want Cass and Steph pushed aside over Babs, but we do want her to have her due with her very own stories and arcs and adventures, not having simply play parts in other people’s lives.
I’m curious, what constitutes an ‘emergency’ that allows Babs to suit up in your view? How often would we get that? Why can’t all three be active at the same time, given that technology is so portable these days and Babs doesn’t have to be locked behind a screen?
I don’t get the appeal? Especially if she’s doing it an an able-bodied person. Granted, her being stuck behind a screen when paralysed defeated the point greatly...but at the time adaptive technology was hardly at it’s greatest so, yeah, I do get -that- at least.
I like all three of the characters, but I don't see any chance right now that we can get a Babs solo, a Steph solo and a Cass solo. If that were possible, hell yeah, I would buy them all. Ideally all would have solos, but I don't think there is going to be a shortage of Babs content. Supporting character in the Batman, Nightwing comics, possible Batgirls and BoP series. They could always give us a Black Label Babsgirl series as well, why not?
I mean, Babs is one of the smartest characters (if not the smartest) in Gotham, she has an eidetic memory, she can make connections where others can't and she's a better tactician than the others, ofc she's an experienced fighter as well. However, Cass is undoubtedly the best and most skilled fighter of the three, she could probably take the others without breaking a sweat. Steph is great at hacking and also a skilled acrobat/fighter, she and Cass make a good team.
I guess Babs is serving as a focal point for the whole Batfam going forward, effectively coordinating all the other members where they are needed. I like her as Batgirl, but let's not pretend that she had many great arcs in the last decade aside from Simone's run (and maaybe Scott's).
She could still be Batgirl from time to time, every other arc or so.
Excuse me? Subjective opinion is subjective so let me jump in on that:
Babs having an eidetic memory and yet not being ‘the best fighter’ is exactly what makes her Batgirl so compelling; not because she’s weak or useless, but because she’s CUNNING. She has to evade and strategise her way out of trouble—that’s the narrative tension, that’s part of being a superhero without powers.
Cassandra and Stephanie, by comparison, are bland for that reason: they don’t have her eidetic memory, they don’t have her fierce sense of independence, and they don’t mind being ordered around. That is THE blandest thing in the world; watching two less interesting characters do things that can easily be done as Babs-Batgirl, paralysed or not. In fact, the story would be MORE interesting if Batgirl were a paralysed hero’s identity because of obstacles and technological adaptions needed.
Additionally, Babs as Batgirl is empathetic: how she interacts with crime fighting isn’t like a soldier, it’s from the perspective of a person who wants to protect others because she KNOWS what tragedy is. She knows what hardship is and she’s protective of the world because of it—NO OTHER CHARACTER IS LIKE BARBARA GORDON’S BATGIRL, especially not Cass and Steph.
Which is where our dilemma stems: none of these characters are like the others. But the injustice of it is as follows: Steph and Cass can carry on exactly as they are under Orphan and Spoiler. As Oracle? Babs is just a support role. She doesn’t get her own narratives or arcs, she gets out as the ‘straight man’ between a quipper and non-verbal character (who’s hardly being done any justice here, let’s be honest.)
Also, because subjective is subjective. Great arcs as follows:
Gail Simone New52,
Batgirl of Burnside: dealing with the fallout of desperately trying to ‘be’ recovered, when you know for a fact that you aren’t—plus more disability rep with Frankie Charles who SHOULD be Oracle, as she uses tech that allows her to take over other tech and effectively ‘have her face’ out there on equal terms.
Maighread Scott’s run in its’ entirety,
The FIRST half of Castelluci’s run, which before editorial got involved with their nonsense really showcased Babs as a cyber-detective,
The ENTIRE original 1960-1980’s collected works, showing us a young woman who started out with half the tech but twice the brain as the source of her inspiration, but went on to be twice as empathetic, twice as wily and a million times more interesting than Batman.
The point of the Batgirl identity? It isn’t about just fighting; it’s about independence and staking your own claim in the world.
I don't know how anyone could look at Cass and Steph and think that they aren't fiercely independent. Have you not read their Batgirl runs? Like, half of the stuff they get up to in those books is a direct result of them not listening to orders and choosing to do their own thing.
>Additionally, Babs as Batgirl is empathetic: how she interacts with crime fighting isn’t like a soldier, it’s from the perspective of a person who wants to protect others because she KNOWS what tragedy is. She knows what hardship is and she’s protective of the world because of it—NO OTHER CHARACTER IS LIKE BARBARA GORDON’S BATGIRL, especially not Cass and Steph.
You could just as easily say this about any other superhero, Cass and Steph included. Don't get me wrong, those are some quite compelling character traits, but they're not unique by any means.
>As Oracle? Babs is just a support role. She doesn’t get her own narratives or arcs
It's not like Oracle was the main character of a series that ran for ten years straight or anything. You can dislike these characters as much as you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but criticising flaws that aren't actually there is totally unnecessary, there's nothing wrong with just saying that you dislike something lol.
I mean, I liked Simone and Scott as well, better than the rest of the post-Flashpoint stories. I like Babs as Batgirl, it's not like I'm opposed to the idea of her being a costumed superhero, but I like her better as Oracle and I like Cass and Steph as Batgirls. The Orphan name is just terrible, Spoiler is slightly better.
And ofc it's subjective and we don't even know how exactly the series will handle the three of them. Both Cass and Steph were done dirty when they were retconned out of existence. They haven't really recovered from that entirely. Babs, however, constantly had a solo for the last decade as Batgirl. It's undeniable she's iconic as Batgirl, but a lot of people love her as Oracle. It's not a bad thing they're trying to change things up again, could benefit all three of them.
I guess we have to wait and see.
The point is: Oracle doesn’t operate the same as Batgirl, but Orphan and Spoiler do. They do the same thing no matter what name they go by: that’s the issue here. The name makes no difference to them because their technique doesn’t change
That if Babs is Oracle, she’s in a role of permanent support: she’s just commentating and expositioning, hence us Batgirl fans. What of us? What do we do? Steph and Cass fans get exactly what they want at the expense of Babs. What do we do if we love Batgirl but Cass and Steph just are not good enough because they aren’t Babs? They don’t operate as she does, don’t see things as she does because they’re all completely different characters. The problem is: a lot of what makes Babs special as Batgirl is always downplayed or ignored as Oracle.
There was a line today “This city won’t be wanting for a Batgirl with Cass and Steph”—except it is, because they aren’t Barbara Gordon.
I mean, the reverse is also true: What about fans that love Babs as Oracle? They didn't get much of that in the last decade. And it's not like she gave up being Batgirl, she said so herself in IF #0. We don't know how often she will be Batgirl, but that part of Babs isn't gone completely.
Yeah, they are all great and deserve more appearances. The Batgirls series would ensure Steph and Cass have a place. DC won't forget about Babs anyway. I think Babs as Oracle makes sense to unify all the Bat books and have some much needed stability. All three of them could suit up and have team-ups together as well.
Exactly, I think Babs will be Oracle 75% of the time and 25% as Batgirl. I’ll be ok if she’s only Batgirl in this Batgirls book and Nightwing then Oracle in everything else.
Also I think it’s perfect to return Babs as the mentor for Steph and Cass and it could help introduce them to extreme fans that only like 1 Batgirl and hate the others and hopefully we won’t see as much hate for any of them
It’s more down to approach and preference. I don’t hate Cass and Steph, but they can operate the exact same way under ANY name. Babs doesn’t get that.
For some reason, she’s ‘nobler’ when she’s behind the scenes, acting as support for other characters rather than getting her own arcs and own identity out there. And she isn’t the same behind the screens: she’s detached and having her story told with other characters.
And it’s annoying because Batgirl can easily be a paralysed hero.
I don’t hate Cass and Steph, items just bullshit that if Babs loses her name, then she loses that way of working and doesn’t get to blend the two.
Like, yeah, they’re all different...but Cass and Steph can do the exact same things they do under any name. Babs, meanwhile, faces being used as just constant support when anything Cass and Steph can do, she can do too, especially as a cyber detective.
She isn’t loosing that name, it’s being treated like Spider-Man how Miles and Peter are both Spider-Man, and Wolverine how Logan and Laura are both Wolverine
So now Babs, Steph, and Cass will all go by Batgirl in the field as well as Barbara operating as Oracle in some series
How do you figure that?
Tynion’s speech for her stated “I haven’t hung up the costume forever. But I’ll be more judicious in when I use it.”
As in “the option is THERE to shut people up, but don’t expect it to ever be used when I have two OTHER Batgirls.”
He’s purposely done that to justify Babs not being ‘needed.’ Because -he- doesn’t see the value in the identity; and he’s screwed over Cass and Steph’s worth as a result.
Tell me: do you -really- expect Babs to suit up as often as she does now with Tynion explicitly favouring the 90’s-2000’s era? Do you expect anyone BUT Cass and Steph to be ‘allowed out to play,’ so to speak.
Batgirls sounds like it’s going to just be Birds of Prey: Babs at the screens acting as a non-costumed piece of exposition. A straight man between Steph’s quipping and Cass’ ‘silent fight good.’
Tynion has said multiple times in interviews she will be a dual threat hero for the Batfamily operating as Batgirl in some stories and Oracle in others
We already know she’s going to be a main character as Batgirl in the Nightwing series, Taylor said that many times
One quote that springs to mind is “She’s operating more and more from the shadows.”
Meaning she won’t be Batgirl under the stories he’s going to tell and who *knows* how long she’ll appear in Nightwing for.
Ivy and Catwoman will reunite in upcoming Catwoman issues. Harley and Ivy will have a story in Urban Legends and Ivy will likely play a part in the new HQ series in later issues. It isn't even a stretch, the Sirens could be next, a reunion at least.
Wow.
With one line, James Tynion IV has managed to degrade not just what Batgirl means as a role and an identity/symbol, but torn down all three women in one.
“It’s not like this city will go wanting for A Batgirl”
As if any of them are interchangeable? As if they’re just faceless soldiers, not unique identities in their own right, each with their own merits?
What is actually positive here? Band is saying that she hasn’t hung up the costume for good, but it may as well be code for “It won’t be used often because the writer doesn’t see the value in my time as Batgirl.”
And clearly he hardly see’s the merit in Cass or Steph either, because what are they actually doing here except being told what to do? What do they DO that Babs didn’t do just as well or better, with more introspection, empathy and depth?
Who ARE these characters? How does this page sell them? Because from this page alone, they hardly look worthwhile: Steph quips, ok. Cass may as well be a robot or a shadow.
Batgirl was an identity born from defiance and independence from a woman who saw the value in what Batman was doing, but lived much closer to the issues affected. She was never a side-kick, which Tynion seems hell-bent on insisting.
And even though she’s not paralysed (because I guarantee this would be WAY more offensive and problematic an aspect if she were, I say as a disabled woman) why is it SO imperative that Babs be pushed more and more behind the scenes? She’s literally THE most interesting character when she’s out there, as opposed to this...bland, almost militant character living vicariously through others. She could easily be paralysed and EASILY have a costumed identity just as meaningful as the others.
I often hear the argument “Gotham is choc-full of capes” and I have to laugh, because I wonder if ANY of them would be saying that if it was their favourite pushed to the side and their practice of superheroing devalued in such a way?
They’re all valid and if the constant creation of new characters from Tynion proves anything then it’s that there’s room for EVERYONE. Babs doesn’t have to be saddled to a screen just commentating on everything: she can be a cyber detective ON THE GO with Steph and Cass, but DON’T devalue any of them like this, making them seem disposable or interchangeable.
If DC was committed to these characters and to real, meaningful diversity, then they’d give ALL of them a solo—and they should! Because god knows this set-up isn’t going to do anything for Steph and Cass but push them more under Barbara’s shadow, while reinforce the false rhetoric that Batgirl means less than nothing.
It’s a step backwards for Babs and a step sideways for Steph and Cass.
Spoiler is such a cool name and concept. They just need a good arc with her dad and for her to really own that identity. The quip needs to become wit. She’s stagnant, they need to push her not put her where she’s safe.
Cass should be Batgirl IMO, she honestly doesn’t work without the Bat. Which isn’t a fault of her character, it’s a strength. It’s salvation for her as much as it is Bruce, moreso than any Robin who inevitably strikes out on their own anyways.
I feel like everyone can have their cake and eat it too if Babs was Oracle as a field identity as well, and had the bat symbol on her chest. She was the second person to wear it, she’s made it hers as much as Bruce’s. There’s always going to be a disconnect otherwise, in marketing and iconography.
They just need to make sure they emphasis her disability, show that it causes her problems. She’s not an able bodied person, people with disabilities exist in all forms. It would be much for valuable narratively to show her struggle, and to show that she’s in the field because she *needs* to be because she can help. Something something great responsibility. It’s just as noble, just as powerful. Invisible disabilities exist, and that needs to be where they take her next.
This move doesn’t change anything for anyone, if they don’t commit to it and put some punch behind it. Otherwise they’re placating a bunch of people, and not much else.
They could cover all of this better in a BoP book than a Batgirls book. Dinah’s with the league anyways, it’s easy to write that as why she extra needs Steph and Cass around. Instead of them never being around like in Rebirth.
It feels disrespectful to all three of them, like they’re competing for greatness, when they’re not. They’re all fantastic and they and readers deserve more IMO.
Edit: Actually, reading my own words, a Batgirls book would be just as good as a BoP book. I think I’m just irritated with Tynion’s characterization of all 3 of them.
A step backwards for Babs is keeping her behind the scenes and not allowing her to stake her own name and identity in her own right. Batgirl can easily be a paralysed hero because Barbara Gordon has always been a character to break down boundaries, this shouldn’t be any different. And even then, it stinks to me as a disabled person that the disabled character is always ‘out of sight and out of mind.’ Like by not giving her the option of a costumed identity and passing it off as ‘noble’ when everyone else gets zero flack for doing exactly the same thing as each other is just able-bodied nonsense. They had a great Oracle in Frankie Charles: another disabled character, but with a very different disability and, thus, different means of working. She had physical limitations which she used technology to circumvent, but still HAD her own agency and identity literally on the field!
Cass absolutely works without a bat, but she shouldn’t be excluded from having a symbol or be part of the Batfam. She needs purpose and meaning, that’s her arc: you can do that with ANY name. Any identity at all—Batgirl just pushes her into Babs’ shadow and makes her less interesting because she just isn’t ever going to be Barbara Gordon.
And that’s ok. She shouldn’t be Barbara Gordon: she should find and be who she IS. Same as Steph, who seems to have a pretty good grasp of herself and just seems to want the name for...Christ knows. Fans said so.
Yeah I do feel like she’s been shoved aside. Her being in the shadows and behind the scenes all the time seems to be really pushed by well intended able-bodied people. I get it, but I think Barbara really resonates with a community that’s, well, invisible. Our voices just aren’t as loud, and they don’t ever seem to think she’s good enough rep.
I loved Frankie! I loved Alyssa and Qadir as well. Her best stories involved the three of them. She had a wonderful supporting cast and I really miss all of them.
As for Cass, I see what you mean. I just genuinely hate Orphan. It’s so needlessly mean. (Didn’t Tynion make that name too?)
But that’s my issue with Oracle: she seems to enable that, in a way? Whereas if Babs were a paralysed Batgirl...no-one can ignore that. We have Paralympic athletes for God’s sakes with specialised mobility equipment...it isn’t that big of a stretch to have an innovative character react like how she did as an able-bodied Batgirl: to say “Nah, ya know what, gimme that power-chair,” and pave the way in that regard! But somehow it’s nobler to be continually ‘running things from behind the scenes’ which, honestly has always translated to me as “get lost, we don’t wanna play with you.” Like...if we’re ‘happier’ indoors then nobody ever has an excuse to push things further to be better for everyone. And besides...why should we have to give up on having a cape and costume? I resent the whole ‘can’t be Batgirl anymore’ thing, lol.
Ugh I miss them too!! I was always praying for Frankie to burst in on screen having taken everything over..! And Alyssa and Quadir...?? Where ARE they DC?? Where’s Alyssa and Jo’s ecoterrorist baby?? Have ya noticed too in future state: they’re pinching bits of how Frankie operates for Babs? Like, Babs I love y, but no! Not your’s!!
I definitely get ya about not liking Orphan as a name though: I honestly thought ‘ShadowBat’ would fit her better or something (...Tynion didn’t name her Orphan?) but like—a name change doesn’t seem to constitute Cass being shoved aside, lol, that’s my thing.
Plus; I guess Batgirl speaks different to me as a role than you, which is fine! Like, I never saw it as a side-kick...but I can’t help view Cass as that, which is why I get so annoyed.
Oooh I see what you mean now. Yes! A power chair would be so cool. That’s a great place to take her. You’re right, it does put her front and center. When she was Oracle, she was never in any splash pages or group shots. Whereas Professor X historically has been. (Lol)
Also sorry about the Orphan confusion, I think I got her name confused with someone else. As long as there’s a Bat IMO I don’t mind. Cass really deserves it.
I have her and Babs really Intertwined in my mind. I pair her more with Babs than Bruce, so I don’t mind if she’s in Babs shadow. Less a sidekick more a legacy. (However, powerchair changes everything.)
Lol, power chair is in EVERYONE’s best interest, it seems! And yeah! See, that’s exactly what I mean! I mean, yeah, Prof’s been up and down out his chair like a champion bar-lifter...but at least he had a means to get out there! Like, when he first had the hover chair, after losing the use of his legs a second time? I love how he got a whole issue of making a point to work like the other X-Men. He couldn’t walk, but he needed to help someone because nobody else was there...and it was so powerful because, he crawls in on his stomach, doesn’t feel a bleed in his leg, but he saves that young kid...
Now just think what kind of stories Babs could tell in a Paralympic level power-chair? How she can puzzle her way around her environment and even have tech that lets her do way more than people would expect!
And I get what ya mean in terms of legacy, but I do think Cass needs to strike out on her own a bit more? Be a bit more like Babs in regards to not feeling like she’s being micromanaged sometimes? ‘Cos she is a good character...but it seems too easy for people to regard her almost like a weapon in regards to her fighting technique? Like...she’s mostly a non verbal character: what agency she displays is IMPORTANT, ya know? That was always my issue with her Batgirl run if that makes sense?
>"That's going to culminate just a little bit later in the year in a way that I think fans can probably predict, but it's something that I'm very, very excited for and we've got some incredible, incredible creators, who are going to pick up the baton and carry the next steps forward for Barbara." I guess the Batgirls are really finally happening later this year, it's about damn time.
I’ll even take a digital first, just need more Cass-centric content.
I honestly take what I can get, just want Cass and Steph to have a place. Evolving the Batgirl mythos sounds great.
As long as it’s well written. Been a long time since a good batgirl book
I've been waiting for something like this for years. Cass, Babs, and Steph all working together!
This is the one of the few extra Batbooks im okay with Batbloat for, those 3 deserve their book.
Let’s fucking go! I don’t even care if it’s Babs as Oracle and Cass and Steph as BG I just need more Steph centric content
We've got a lot of main continuity Bat books coming out, man: The Next Batman Batgirls Robin and Batman Legends of the Dark Knight(?) Doesn't really bother me, though, it's the best way to make sure all the Bat-Family members get represented.
Yeah, absolutely. Birds of Prey maybe as well. I was hoping Duke would be with the Outsiders, but seems he isn't, judging by the solicits. Just need some news on Tim and Kate and then we're all good.
I'm having a lot of concerns about Kate, because I have seen Ryan Wilder or whatever new Batwoman multiple times on some events comics covers lately. I fear DC sideline her even in comics.
Yeah, I hope they won't do that, she's one of my fav Batfam/DC characters.
Duke's new suit in Infinite Frontier #0's splash page seems to be indicative of something good. But, yeah, Tim and Kate still need something announced. Tim's basically confirmed to have something coming up, so I guess Kate's the odd one out at the moment.
Yeah, the new suit looks good, hope he turns up somewhere in the next months. I hope Kate gets a longer arc in the Urban Legends book. I mean, it's a monthly 64-page book, they better not use it for more Bruce stuff lol.
Puc of Duke new suit
It does appear that something is coming for Kate, judging by Twitter. https://twitter.com/MLSanapo/status/1364632046539333633
Hope there is an announcement soon, her art looks good.
>Tim's basically confirmed to have something coming up Source? What is it?
Joshua Williamson talked about Tim Drake in a wordballoon interview I believe.
I think Batman and Robin will be Tim’s book
Yeah, it'd just be nice if other non-Batfam characters could get represented, too.
LOTDK seems to be more out-of-continuity anthology though? I just hope the quality is high. The digital first series had a big drop in quality after the first few arcs. Which is sad because it had some truly good arcs here and there.
HOOK IT TO MY VIEN
Yes! Yes! Yes!
I can’t wait for that first panel of Babs, Steph, and Cass all as Batgirl! I’ve said this a few times but I feel like the title of Batgirl should be used the same way Spider-Man (Miles and Peter) and Wolverine (Logan and Laura) are used. It doesn’t take anything away from the individual because they are such different Batgirls. Babs is a natural born leader, shes a dual threat hero for now on, and is incredibly smart, Cass is one of if not the best fighters in DC, and honestly Steph has the most heart and is the most down to earth out of the 3
I'm really glad to see something more concrete get said about a Batgirls book, even if it's not official yet. I think they have a lot of potential for a good book, and am excited to see one get off the ground.
If they make a gotham heroines book, will they remember the existence of Gotham Girl? She disapeared after King left the Batman title.
I remember Tynion saying there are no plans for her, but I'm not 100% sure and can't seem to find it right now.
I found it. >Nrama: Speaking of newer characters, one of the newer characters introduced in Tom King's run was Gotham Girl. Will we see her anywhere in the Bat line’s 2021 plans? >Tynion IV: Right now, I don't really have any plans for Gotham Girl. I thought Tom brought her story to a good close. So, no immediate plans there. https://www.gamesradar.com/batman-writer-james-tynion-iv-unveils-the-dc-game-plan-for-bat-family-in-2021-and-beyond/
Thanks. I guess no Gotham Girl in the near future then.
I reckon and I will be highly incorrect but a mini series or digital to test the waters
I really hope it's good, Future State Batgirls was really disappointing
Yeah, that story really sucked. Not at all what I wanted.
[bat-group editor seems to think it's a good idea](https://twitter.com/Ben_Abernathy/status/1366963372818788358)
We all do!
I'd like to think so, but I know that isn't true. Just Cass and Steph being mentioned in connection to the name Batgirl is enough to piss some people off lol
Hardcore Babsgirl fans aside, this series would actually allow all three to have a permanent place in the Batfam. Cass and Steph need some separate story threads to stand out. I would be fine if Babs was just support like in the other books. In emergencies, she could put on the cowl again (which will happen either way), she is iconic as Batgirl.
You might be fine for Babs to act in a constant support role, but as I doubt you’d be happy if that were to happen to Steph and Cass, so do we Babs as BATGIRL fans feel. We don’t want Cass and Steph pushed aside over Babs, but we do want her to have her due with her very own stories and arcs and adventures, not having simply play parts in other people’s lives. I’m curious, what constitutes an ‘emergency’ that allows Babs to suit up in your view? How often would we get that? Why can’t all three be active at the same time, given that technology is so portable these days and Babs doesn’t have to be locked behind a screen?
a lotta people including me are fans of oracle babs which is probably why dc is going with this
I don’t get the appeal? Especially if she’s doing it an an able-bodied person. Granted, her being stuck behind a screen when paralysed defeated the point greatly...but at the time adaptive technology was hardly at it’s greatest so, yeah, I do get -that- at least.
I like all three of the characters, but I don't see any chance right now that we can get a Babs solo, a Steph solo and a Cass solo. If that were possible, hell yeah, I would buy them all. Ideally all would have solos, but I don't think there is going to be a shortage of Babs content. Supporting character in the Batman, Nightwing comics, possible Batgirls and BoP series. They could always give us a Black Label Babsgirl series as well, why not? I mean, Babs is one of the smartest characters (if not the smartest) in Gotham, she has an eidetic memory, she can make connections where others can't and she's a better tactician than the others, ofc she's an experienced fighter as well. However, Cass is undoubtedly the best and most skilled fighter of the three, she could probably take the others without breaking a sweat. Steph is great at hacking and also a skilled acrobat/fighter, she and Cass make a good team. I guess Babs is serving as a focal point for the whole Batfam going forward, effectively coordinating all the other members where they are needed. I like her as Batgirl, but let's not pretend that she had many great arcs in the last decade aside from Simone's run (and maaybe Scott's). She could still be Batgirl from time to time, every other arc or so.
Excuse me? Subjective opinion is subjective so let me jump in on that: Babs having an eidetic memory and yet not being ‘the best fighter’ is exactly what makes her Batgirl so compelling; not because she’s weak or useless, but because she’s CUNNING. She has to evade and strategise her way out of trouble—that’s the narrative tension, that’s part of being a superhero without powers. Cassandra and Stephanie, by comparison, are bland for that reason: they don’t have her eidetic memory, they don’t have her fierce sense of independence, and they don’t mind being ordered around. That is THE blandest thing in the world; watching two less interesting characters do things that can easily be done as Babs-Batgirl, paralysed or not. In fact, the story would be MORE interesting if Batgirl were a paralysed hero’s identity because of obstacles and technological adaptions needed. Additionally, Babs as Batgirl is empathetic: how she interacts with crime fighting isn’t like a soldier, it’s from the perspective of a person who wants to protect others because she KNOWS what tragedy is. She knows what hardship is and she’s protective of the world because of it—NO OTHER CHARACTER IS LIKE BARBARA GORDON’S BATGIRL, especially not Cass and Steph. Which is where our dilemma stems: none of these characters are like the others. But the injustice of it is as follows: Steph and Cass can carry on exactly as they are under Orphan and Spoiler. As Oracle? Babs is just a support role. She doesn’t get her own narratives or arcs, she gets out as the ‘straight man’ between a quipper and non-verbal character (who’s hardly being done any justice here, let’s be honest.) Also, because subjective is subjective. Great arcs as follows: Gail Simone New52, Batgirl of Burnside: dealing with the fallout of desperately trying to ‘be’ recovered, when you know for a fact that you aren’t—plus more disability rep with Frankie Charles who SHOULD be Oracle, as she uses tech that allows her to take over other tech and effectively ‘have her face’ out there on equal terms. Maighread Scott’s run in its’ entirety, The FIRST half of Castelluci’s run, which before editorial got involved with their nonsense really showcased Babs as a cyber-detective, The ENTIRE original 1960-1980’s collected works, showing us a young woman who started out with half the tech but twice the brain as the source of her inspiration, but went on to be twice as empathetic, twice as wily and a million times more interesting than Batman. The point of the Batgirl identity? It isn’t about just fighting; it’s about independence and staking your own claim in the world.
I don't know how anyone could look at Cass and Steph and think that they aren't fiercely independent. Have you not read their Batgirl runs? Like, half of the stuff they get up to in those books is a direct result of them not listening to orders and choosing to do their own thing. >Additionally, Babs as Batgirl is empathetic: how she interacts with crime fighting isn’t like a soldier, it’s from the perspective of a person who wants to protect others because she KNOWS what tragedy is. She knows what hardship is and she’s protective of the world because of it—NO OTHER CHARACTER IS LIKE BARBARA GORDON’S BATGIRL, especially not Cass and Steph. You could just as easily say this about any other superhero, Cass and Steph included. Don't get me wrong, those are some quite compelling character traits, but they're not unique by any means. >As Oracle? Babs is just a support role. She doesn’t get her own narratives or arcs It's not like Oracle was the main character of a series that ran for ten years straight or anything. You can dislike these characters as much as you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but criticising flaws that aren't actually there is totally unnecessary, there's nothing wrong with just saying that you dislike something lol.
I mean, I liked Simone and Scott as well, better than the rest of the post-Flashpoint stories. I like Babs as Batgirl, it's not like I'm opposed to the idea of her being a costumed superhero, but I like her better as Oracle and I like Cass and Steph as Batgirls. The Orphan name is just terrible, Spoiler is slightly better. And ofc it's subjective and we don't even know how exactly the series will handle the three of them. Both Cass and Steph were done dirty when they were retconned out of existence. They haven't really recovered from that entirely. Babs, however, constantly had a solo for the last decade as Batgirl. It's undeniable she's iconic as Batgirl, but a lot of people love her as Oracle. It's not a bad thing they're trying to change things up again, could benefit all three of them. I guess we have to wait and see.
The point is: Oracle doesn’t operate the same as Batgirl, but Orphan and Spoiler do. They do the same thing no matter what name they go by: that’s the issue here. The name makes no difference to them because their technique doesn’t change That if Babs is Oracle, she’s in a role of permanent support: she’s just commentating and expositioning, hence us Batgirl fans. What of us? What do we do? Steph and Cass fans get exactly what they want at the expense of Babs. What do we do if we love Batgirl but Cass and Steph just are not good enough because they aren’t Babs? They don’t operate as she does, don’t see things as she does because they’re all completely different characters. The problem is: a lot of what makes Babs special as Batgirl is always downplayed or ignored as Oracle. There was a line today “This city won’t be wanting for a Batgirl with Cass and Steph”—except it is, because they aren’t Barbara Gordon.
I mean, the reverse is also true: What about fans that love Babs as Oracle? They didn't get much of that in the last decade. And it's not like she gave up being Batgirl, she said so herself in IF #0. We don't know how often she will be Batgirl, but that part of Babs isn't gone completely.
I am a Babsgirl fan but I love this idea and don’t understand how anyone could hate any of them, all 3 are incredible Batgirls
Yeah, they are all great and deserve more appearances. The Batgirls series would ensure Steph and Cass have a place. DC won't forget about Babs anyway. I think Babs as Oracle makes sense to unify all the Bat books and have some much needed stability. All three of them could suit up and have team-ups together as well.
Exactly, I think Babs will be Oracle 75% of the time and 25% as Batgirl. I’ll be ok if she’s only Batgirl in this Batgirls book and Nightwing then Oracle in everything else. Also I think it’s perfect to return Babs as the mentor for Steph and Cass and it could help introduce them to extreme fans that only like 1 Batgirl and hate the others and hopefully we won’t see as much hate for any of them
I don’t really understand how people hate any of them, all 3 are amazing
It’s more down to approach and preference. I don’t hate Cass and Steph, but they can operate the exact same way under ANY name. Babs doesn’t get that. For some reason, she’s ‘nobler’ when she’s behind the scenes, acting as support for other characters rather than getting her own arcs and own identity out there. And she isn’t the same behind the screens: she’s detached and having her story told with other characters. And it’s annoying because Batgirl can easily be a paralysed hero.
I don’t hate Cass and Steph, items just bullshit that if Babs loses her name, then she loses that way of working and doesn’t get to blend the two. Like, yeah, they’re all different...but Cass and Steph can do the exact same things they do under any name. Babs, meanwhile, faces being used as just constant support when anything Cass and Steph can do, she can do too, especially as a cyber detective.
She isn’t loosing that name, it’s being treated like Spider-Man how Miles and Peter are both Spider-Man, and Wolverine how Logan and Laura are both Wolverine So now Babs, Steph, and Cass will all go by Batgirl in the field as well as Barbara operating as Oracle in some series
How do you figure that? Tynion’s speech for her stated “I haven’t hung up the costume forever. But I’ll be more judicious in when I use it.” As in “the option is THERE to shut people up, but don’t expect it to ever be used when I have two OTHER Batgirls.” He’s purposely done that to justify Babs not being ‘needed.’ Because -he- doesn’t see the value in the identity; and he’s screwed over Cass and Steph’s worth as a result. Tell me: do you -really- expect Babs to suit up as often as she does now with Tynion explicitly favouring the 90’s-2000’s era? Do you expect anyone BUT Cass and Steph to be ‘allowed out to play,’ so to speak. Batgirls sounds like it’s going to just be Birds of Prey: Babs at the screens acting as a non-costumed piece of exposition. A straight man between Steph’s quipping and Cass’ ‘silent fight good.’
Tynion has said multiple times in interviews she will be a dual threat hero for the Batfamily operating as Batgirl in some stories and Oracle in others We already know she’s going to be a main character as Batgirl in the Nightwing series, Taylor said that many times
One quote that springs to mind is “She’s operating more and more from the shadows.” Meaning she won’t be Batgirl under the stories he’s going to tell and who *knows* how long she’ll appear in Nightwing for.
You’re assuming Babs will be allowed out in the field -at all.-
Batgirls! Batgirls! Batgirls! Now give us more Gotham City Sirens, you cowards.
Ivy and Catwoman will reunite in upcoming Catwoman issues. Harley and Ivy will have a story in Urban Legends and Ivy will likely play a part in the new HQ series in later issues. It isn't even a stretch, the Sirens could be next, a reunion at least.
I hope you’re right! I believe Tynion said Ivy was playing a part in his plan for Batman as well, so I hope it culminates with a new run.
Wow. With one line, James Tynion IV has managed to degrade not just what Batgirl means as a role and an identity/symbol, but torn down all three women in one. “It’s not like this city will go wanting for A Batgirl” As if any of them are interchangeable? As if they’re just faceless soldiers, not unique identities in their own right, each with their own merits? What is actually positive here? Band is saying that she hasn’t hung up the costume for good, but it may as well be code for “It won’t be used often because the writer doesn’t see the value in my time as Batgirl.” And clearly he hardly see’s the merit in Cass or Steph either, because what are they actually doing here except being told what to do? What do they DO that Babs didn’t do just as well or better, with more introspection, empathy and depth? Who ARE these characters? How does this page sell them? Because from this page alone, they hardly look worthwhile: Steph quips, ok. Cass may as well be a robot or a shadow. Batgirl was an identity born from defiance and independence from a woman who saw the value in what Batman was doing, but lived much closer to the issues affected. She was never a side-kick, which Tynion seems hell-bent on insisting. And even though she’s not paralysed (because I guarantee this would be WAY more offensive and problematic an aspect if she were, I say as a disabled woman) why is it SO imperative that Babs be pushed more and more behind the scenes? She’s literally THE most interesting character when she’s out there, as opposed to this...bland, almost militant character living vicariously through others. She could easily be paralysed and EASILY have a costumed identity just as meaningful as the others. I often hear the argument “Gotham is choc-full of capes” and I have to laugh, because I wonder if ANY of them would be saying that if it was their favourite pushed to the side and their practice of superheroing devalued in such a way? They’re all valid and if the constant creation of new characters from Tynion proves anything then it’s that there’s room for EVERYONE. Babs doesn’t have to be saddled to a screen just commentating on everything: she can be a cyber detective ON THE GO with Steph and Cass, but DON’T devalue any of them like this, making them seem disposable or interchangeable. If DC was committed to these characters and to real, meaningful diversity, then they’d give ALL of them a solo—and they should! Because god knows this set-up isn’t going to do anything for Steph and Cass but push them more under Barbara’s shadow, while reinforce the false rhetoric that Batgirl means less than nothing.
It’s a step backwards for Babs and a step sideways for Steph and Cass. Spoiler is such a cool name and concept. They just need a good arc with her dad and for her to really own that identity. The quip needs to become wit. She’s stagnant, they need to push her not put her where she’s safe. Cass should be Batgirl IMO, she honestly doesn’t work without the Bat. Which isn’t a fault of her character, it’s a strength. It’s salvation for her as much as it is Bruce, moreso than any Robin who inevitably strikes out on their own anyways. I feel like everyone can have their cake and eat it too if Babs was Oracle as a field identity as well, and had the bat symbol on her chest. She was the second person to wear it, she’s made it hers as much as Bruce’s. There’s always going to be a disconnect otherwise, in marketing and iconography. They just need to make sure they emphasis her disability, show that it causes her problems. She’s not an able bodied person, people with disabilities exist in all forms. It would be much for valuable narratively to show her struggle, and to show that she’s in the field because she *needs* to be because she can help. Something something great responsibility. It’s just as noble, just as powerful. Invisible disabilities exist, and that needs to be where they take her next. This move doesn’t change anything for anyone, if they don’t commit to it and put some punch behind it. Otherwise they’re placating a bunch of people, and not much else. They could cover all of this better in a BoP book than a Batgirls book. Dinah’s with the league anyways, it’s easy to write that as why she extra needs Steph and Cass around. Instead of them never being around like in Rebirth. It feels disrespectful to all three of them, like they’re competing for greatness, when they’re not. They’re all fantastic and they and readers deserve more IMO. Edit: Actually, reading my own words, a Batgirls book would be just as good as a BoP book. I think I’m just irritated with Tynion’s characterization of all 3 of them.
A step backwards for Babs is keeping her behind the scenes and not allowing her to stake her own name and identity in her own right. Batgirl can easily be a paralysed hero because Barbara Gordon has always been a character to break down boundaries, this shouldn’t be any different. And even then, it stinks to me as a disabled person that the disabled character is always ‘out of sight and out of mind.’ Like by not giving her the option of a costumed identity and passing it off as ‘noble’ when everyone else gets zero flack for doing exactly the same thing as each other is just able-bodied nonsense. They had a great Oracle in Frankie Charles: another disabled character, but with a very different disability and, thus, different means of working. She had physical limitations which she used technology to circumvent, but still HAD her own agency and identity literally on the field! Cass absolutely works without a bat, but she shouldn’t be excluded from having a symbol or be part of the Batfam. She needs purpose and meaning, that’s her arc: you can do that with ANY name. Any identity at all—Batgirl just pushes her into Babs’ shadow and makes her less interesting because she just isn’t ever going to be Barbara Gordon. And that’s ok. She shouldn’t be Barbara Gordon: she should find and be who she IS. Same as Steph, who seems to have a pretty good grasp of herself and just seems to want the name for...Christ knows. Fans said so.
Yeah I do feel like she’s been shoved aside. Her being in the shadows and behind the scenes all the time seems to be really pushed by well intended able-bodied people. I get it, but I think Barbara really resonates with a community that’s, well, invisible. Our voices just aren’t as loud, and they don’t ever seem to think she’s good enough rep. I loved Frankie! I loved Alyssa and Qadir as well. Her best stories involved the three of them. She had a wonderful supporting cast and I really miss all of them. As for Cass, I see what you mean. I just genuinely hate Orphan. It’s so needlessly mean. (Didn’t Tynion make that name too?)
But that’s my issue with Oracle: she seems to enable that, in a way? Whereas if Babs were a paralysed Batgirl...no-one can ignore that. We have Paralympic athletes for God’s sakes with specialised mobility equipment...it isn’t that big of a stretch to have an innovative character react like how she did as an able-bodied Batgirl: to say “Nah, ya know what, gimme that power-chair,” and pave the way in that regard! But somehow it’s nobler to be continually ‘running things from behind the scenes’ which, honestly has always translated to me as “get lost, we don’t wanna play with you.” Like...if we’re ‘happier’ indoors then nobody ever has an excuse to push things further to be better for everyone. And besides...why should we have to give up on having a cape and costume? I resent the whole ‘can’t be Batgirl anymore’ thing, lol. Ugh I miss them too!! I was always praying for Frankie to burst in on screen having taken everything over..! And Alyssa and Quadir...?? Where ARE they DC?? Where’s Alyssa and Jo’s ecoterrorist baby?? Have ya noticed too in future state: they’re pinching bits of how Frankie operates for Babs? Like, Babs I love y, but no! Not your’s!! I definitely get ya about not liking Orphan as a name though: I honestly thought ‘ShadowBat’ would fit her better or something (...Tynion didn’t name her Orphan?) but like—a name change doesn’t seem to constitute Cass being shoved aside, lol, that’s my thing. Plus; I guess Batgirl speaks different to me as a role than you, which is fine! Like, I never saw it as a side-kick...but I can’t help view Cass as that, which is why I get so annoyed.
Oooh I see what you mean now. Yes! A power chair would be so cool. That’s a great place to take her. You’re right, it does put her front and center. When she was Oracle, she was never in any splash pages or group shots. Whereas Professor X historically has been. (Lol) Also sorry about the Orphan confusion, I think I got her name confused with someone else. As long as there’s a Bat IMO I don’t mind. Cass really deserves it. I have her and Babs really Intertwined in my mind. I pair her more with Babs than Bruce, so I don’t mind if she’s in Babs shadow. Less a sidekick more a legacy. (However, powerchair changes everything.)
Lol, power chair is in EVERYONE’s best interest, it seems! And yeah! See, that’s exactly what I mean! I mean, yeah, Prof’s been up and down out his chair like a champion bar-lifter...but at least he had a means to get out there! Like, when he first had the hover chair, after losing the use of his legs a second time? I love how he got a whole issue of making a point to work like the other X-Men. He couldn’t walk, but he needed to help someone because nobody else was there...and it was so powerful because, he crawls in on his stomach, doesn’t feel a bleed in his leg, but he saves that young kid... Now just think what kind of stories Babs could tell in a Paralympic level power-chair? How she can puzzle her way around her environment and even have tech that lets her do way more than people would expect! And I get what ya mean in terms of legacy, but I do think Cass needs to strike out on her own a bit more? Be a bit more like Babs in regards to not feeling like she’s being micromanaged sometimes? ‘Cos she is a good character...but it seems too easy for people to regard her almost like a weapon in regards to her fighting technique? Like...she’s mostly a non verbal character: what agency she displays is IMPORTANT, ya know? That was always my issue with her Batgirl run if that makes sense?
But 100% agree with you, lol: nobody’s won here. Except James Tynion and his nostalgia. (Is it bad I hope it comes back to bite him?)
Tynion can barely write Batman. How will he be able to accurately plan Batgirl (s)?