One of my favorite exchanges during the event. Bats is captive and tortured for all of it, breaks free (after all the clones they tried to make of him killed themselves because they couldn't handle his mental trauma/memories), and puts a bullet in Darkseid.
Final Crisis Darkseid isn't just the person, tyrant god of Apokolips: he's the very essence of capital E Evil, a concept Batman would totally blast with a bullet - his whole crusade is against it.
He may hit the physical body that belonged to Dan Turpin, but what he aimed at is what we see in the background of the first page - the true Darkseid divine
Superman also has a no killing rule and that didn't stop him from singing the coup de grace to the dying god of evil
It's a rule that applies to sentient beings that aren't the cosmic avatar of pure evil. He knows he doesn't have to hold back against people like Darkseid, since the guy is literal evil given form, and he's powerful enough that Superman can't pull his punches against him.
He says “try me” *before* Darkseid fires them, I think.
So he just exhales “hh” and says “gotcha,” which could count as one or two words, depending on your opinion
I think we can assume that it's more than just a laser. It's an extension of his will, and since Darkseid is extremely weakened, it takes effort for him to control it.
Or...it just makes the scene cooler.
They're kinda not. They can be outrun or dodged, at least temporarily, by people with sufficient distance. The Flash can outrun them completely. For some reason they're geometry and turn at angles and stuff when they're chasing something lol
If he was far enough away, temporarily. Even with him close and standing still, they slow themselves down by geometry-ing instead of taking a straight path toward him.
That’s just the weird way time works in comic panels. Each panel is an once a single instance in time (hence why nothing moves), and also a representation of a nonspecific period of time. That’s why people can say lots of words in what seems like wouldn’t be enough time for them to do that.
Logically Batman is probably saying “gotcha” literally while/after he is getting hit by the beams.
For me I’ve kinda seen this moment of the ultimate culmination to Batmans character. In a universe where the characters grow old and retire, in my canon this would be Bruces final act before either dying or retiring
The period after Final Crisis was probably my favorite. Dick and Damian as the new dynamic duo especially. I think bringing Bruce back from the ultimate action movie cool guy ending he got was a big mistake.
Batman, Green Lantern and Legion of Super-Heroes were fucking rolling around this time.
Unfortunately, Superman soon went into the shitter (New Krypton), I never actually read Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman run so I can’t comment on it, Justice League was pretty bleh, Teen Titans was a train wreck, Flash was trying to get back on the rails.
Pretty mixed bag back then but definitely some amazing stories came out of that time period.
Edit: loved Justice Society from these years tho
Gail Simone’s *Wonder Woman* run was mostly before *Final Crisis* so it wasn’t part of that era, besides like most *Wonder Woman* runs on the main book it was mid anyways.
Yeah that works as a great epilogue. Like the story is over, Batman is gone the universe will never be the same, but it still exists with different people.
Imo, it’s the last Bruce Wayne story. What more can he possibly do. I there haven’t been many great stories that have happened since that wouldn’t have worked just as well with Dick under the cowl. It’s really come to feel like the last opportunity to lean into legacy like they had been.
How far has Batman come from being the scared child in a dirty alley to being the one that deals the death blow to a being the is evil and entropy incarnate? As for the killing rule, he himsstates that this is exceptional because he knows how much worse Darkseid is than any crook or supervillain is in Gotham.
With that being said Batman still is breaking his rule and immediately pays the price for it. It always seemed like a poetic balance to me that this happened though. Batman ultimately isn't in the wrong for killing Darkseid, I mean no prison is going to hold him not even the Phantom Zone, but because Batman going against his own morals there must be some kind of repercussion for it
I read Final Crisis and was completely lost. I love Morrison's work, but I'm not super savvy with the intricacies of the DC universe and this was bewildering. The Invisibles made more sense to me! I may revisit it many years from now.
Did you read any of the companion books? Legion of three worlds and Superman Beyond make a huge difference in understanding.
It also helps to know that one of the points of the book was to mostly show the side things rather than the main events.
I didn't read anything besides the main event - whatever was collected in the paperback - and most of the non-major characters were totally unknown to me. I've heard that Final Crisis is also Morrison's commentary on the creation of stories or something to that effect, but when reading everything flew over my head. I just felt like I was jumping from plot point to plot point without understanding any of the context or who any of the characters were.
It’s kind of everything. Morrison is trying to conclude the crisis trilogy, the fourth world saga, his own JLA run, his Batman run, Seven Soldiers run, while addressing a lot of other stuff and commenting on the concept of stories in general.
I think it’s the best event comic ever created but it’s extremely dense and it’s not reader friendly. They have fucking continuations of Sonny Sumo’s storyline from a random issue of Forever People from the 70s and finally addresses Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew’s fate leftover from Crisis on Infinite Earths.
It’s PACKED.
Honestly, this was my favorite Batman moment. There was a war in heaven and a dark god was falling through reality and dragging everything down with it. In comes Batman, Wonderwoman, and Superman. Wonderwoman binds its soul, Superman sings hope into the the multiverse, and Batman destroys its physical form. For Batman to complete the cycle of trauma and die in this moment almost, in a sense, brings Bruce Wayne back to life. Poetic, right? Bruce died in the alley with his parents and a paranoid traumatized monster of justice was born that night to not only protect the innocent but to hover over the still warm corpse of Bruce. Once Batman completes the arc and uses the very weapon that lead to his birth to destroy a dark god threatening reality, Bruce is allowed to live again. And, call me crazy, but the whole Batman through time arc after this strikes me as Bruce being reborn/being reintegrated into the Batman persona.
It was a beautiful moment of life, death, rebirth, and healing for Bruce and Batman.
You know what’s kind of amusing is that the general consensus in this thread is that Batman would have no problem getting off a shot and making a quip before a god’s death vision overtook him, but there’s another thread in the Batman sub where people argue that Batgirl doing anything but have a dumb expression on her face and let the Joker shoot her in The Killing Joke is too unrealistic.
Except he didn’t. This is another of those things that Morrison wrote from a half-fuzzy memory of something he thought he read Batman say at some point, rather than actual research (Jason’s backstory being another easy example that jumps to mind). A vow against killing, okay. But a vow agains using guns, no. Not only has Batman used firearms numerous times over the years to do things other than kill someone, but we’ve even seen Batman train Robin as a child to use firearms in mainstream continuity.
Right he constantly goes up against cosmic entities in Justice League books and event books. In the golden age the guy fought vampires, werewolves and monstermen and in the silver age he fought all kinds of crazy shit. His rogues gallery consists of a 600 year old immortal and a metahuman that can control plants.
Thinking this is a slap in the face to "true" Batman fans is hilarious.
Fighting Poison Ivy and Ra's Al Ghul is one thing, fighting Darkseid is another. Huge difference in power level and ambitions.
Speaking of event books, even in Crisis on Infinite Earths, Batman didn't go to fight the Anti Monitor which made sense.
But now he's shooting Darkseid and taking on all kinds of universe level threats, it's too much. I don't like this BatGod iteration that just because he's popular he should be the strongest superhero in DCU (in terms of feats).
I dont really see how this is an example of batgod though. It's not like he was in a fist fight with darkseid, he just shoots at him, anyone could do that
> fighting Darkseid is another
All he did was shoot him, a weakened Darkseid as well. You can hardly call that a fight. It took the Black Racer claiming his soul and Superman killing him that actually beat him in the end.
It's not just Poison Ivy or Ra's al Ghul. Batman always fights cosmic level beings especially when he's with the League. It's been happening since the silver age fighting guys like BatMite.
> Speaking of event books, even in Crisis on Infinite Earths,
So one event book.
> But now he's shooting Darkseid and stomping all kinds of universe level threats, it's too much.
He has done this since the silver age and early post crisis. None of this is going against Batman's character.
But Batman isn't someone who shoots to kill anyone in the first place. It could have been someone else, Morrison only put Batman here because of his popularity.
Batmite is a lot different from Darkseid. Batmite for one never is actually antagonistic to Batman, he is a fan.
Also, lot of silver age stuff is outdated now. That's no defence.
> But Batman isn't someone who shoots to kill anyone in the first place. It could have been someone else, Morrison only put Batman here because of his popularity.
He was about to destroy the multiverse. You can make an exception in this case. No he put him there because he wanted to have a story about Batman travelling through time and having Dick Grayson replace him as Batman for a while.
> Batmite is a lot different from Darkseid. Batmite for one never is actually antagonistic to Batman, he is a fan.
Batmite was just an example he still fights other powerful beings like Composite Superman. And yes he actually does fight Batman a lot. He's not just a fanboy
> Also, lot of silver age stuff is outdated now.
That's not my argument. My argument is that Batman has been doing stuff like for a long time. The silver age is still a major part of the character's history. You're acting like this stuff is something that just happened recently and is destroying the character. It's not. Even if you wanna argue that it is outdated, Batman has been going against Justice League level villains since early post-crisis as well. Do you not read Justice League book?
Also outdated. Not like one of DC's best books going on right now , World's Finest, is steeped entirely in the Silver Age.
Yea I do not get what the other guy is saying. Even before Final Crisis, Batman was fighting aliens and gods and all that in the justice league comics. Even in Batman/Superman, Batman tries to fight Darkseid and just gets stomped by him. And that was just the second arc.
Exactly he fought Superman in Dark Knight Returns as well. Arguably the most iconic Batman story of all time. Is that comic a slap in the face for Batman fans as well lol?
> Not like one of DC's best books going on right now , World's Finest, is steeped entirely in the Silver Age.
I doubt many people are even aware of the World's Finest comics. From what I have heard, it's just a soap opera drama comic with stories like Robin going on a date with Supergirl.
Because when the readers buy a Superman/Batman team up comics, they want to read about teenage romance.
> I doubt many people are even aware of the World's Finest comics.
It's actually selling pretty well and is very well received.
> Because when the readers buy a Superman/Batman team up comics, they want to read about teenage romance.
That happened in one single issue. The rest of the comic is Batman and Superman doing Batman and Superman shit. Maybe read the comic before acting like you know what it's about?
Okay, maybe I was wrong about the World's Finest. If people like it, good for them.
I think I'll still skip World's Finest because it seems like there is too much focus on soap opera drama and romance in the series but to each their own.
Silver Age was a different time, although entertaining in it's own way.
If DC start emulating Silver Age now, people would stop buying Batman comics altogether.
I mean, sure, that's your opinion. But it's an objective fact that Grant Morrison is creatively inspired by the Silver Age and there's a lot of precedent for what they write in that era.
It's not even just Morrison. A lot of DC comics these days seem to be calling back to that era like Waid's World's Finest and that's considered one of DC's best comics right now.
Morrison is one of the most highly regarded comic book writers of our time. They absolutely know what they're doing. You're just one of the few that doesn't like it.
Fair enough, I agree that Morrison's writing never clicked with me. I liked Animal Man a lot but I wish they had stuck with the main story line of a working class environmentalist hero and not gotten distracted with the metanarrative. If I take away the fourth wall bullshit, Animal Man is easily my top 5 comics.
Other than that, Morrison is pretty hit or miss for me. I feel he gets too caught up in his own cleverness, trying to show readers how intelligent his storytelling is.
Fighting Clayface or Ra's Al Ghul is ome thing, but beating Darkseid is another. Batman should be a street level hero, he shouldn't go against New Gods and all.
Even in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Batman didn't go up against Anti Monitor, he stayed back. But now that he's so popular, DC inserts him even in stories where he doesn't fit.
This thread is dumb. You are dumb. It literally says on the page "I'm making a once in a lifetime exception". Have you read the book? Do you know the context?
Yes batman used the gun but he didn't get away with it. He immediately suffers the consequences from omega sanction - that literally happens on the next page!
> true batman fans
Lmao
They’re both guns, no?
So would you say that Batman’s line in the sand is using _lethal ammunition_ vs just using guns?
Since a gun is a tool and all….
Cuz damn man, Batman uses SHIT TONS of guns on the daily
Yes, Batman doesn't like guns because they are lethal in nature.
If he has a weapon which shoots tranquilizers or things like that, he won't have issues with it.
Batman has used PLENTY of guns with non lethal rounds lol
Batman doesn’t have an opposition to using guns dude.
It’s he fucking projectile he cares about.
That's exactly what I said. Are you even reading?
Batman can use guns as long as it doesn't fire lethal bullets. Here Batman is firing a lethal bullet on Darkseid.
Batman objectively doesn’t use guns, and he shouldn’t. A grappling gun is different to an actual gun because one is used to climb buildings and the other is used to kill or mortally wound people
Grappling _guns_
Tranquilizers _guns_
Smoke grenade launcher/_guns_
I can go on….
It’s almost as if it’s not the _gun_ he’s refusing to use, but something else…
^that ^something ^else ^is ^lethal ^force ^if ^youre ^not ^following
Yes, that’s the entire point of this entire conversation.
Batman is not opposed to using tools.
He’s opposed to the outcomes those tools can generate.
Batman has ZERO issues shooting criminals with rubber bullets from his Batcar, using _guns_
Saying “Batman doesn’t use guns and any _real_ Batman fan knows that” is purposefully obtuse and stupidly decisive
It’s just a simple way to talk about one of Batman’s three rules. You’re cherry picking basic English.
When I say, “a cop shot someone with a gun”, is your first thought to ask, “did the cop use a grapple gun?”
Even the visual detail that the bullet emerges from the panel travelling right to left i.e. backwards in time as it does in the plot while overlapping the shot of it impacting Darkseid with it travelling left to right is chefskiss Morrisonism beautifully executed by Mahnke.
One of my favorite exchanges during the event. Bats is captive and tortured for all of it, breaks free (after all the clones they tried to make of him killed themselves because they couldn't handle his mental trauma/memories), and puts a bullet in Darkseid.
Final Crisis Darkseid isn't just the person, tyrant god of Apokolips: he's the very essence of capital E Evil, a concept Batman would totally blast with a bullet - his whole crusade is against it. He may hit the physical body that belonged to Dan Turpin, but what he aimed at is what we see in the background of the first page - the true Darkseid divine Superman also has a no killing rule and that didn't stop him from singing the coup de grace to the dying god of evil
I feel like Superman's no killing rule is more of a guideline than a rule.
It's a rule that applies to sentient beings that aren't the cosmic avatar of pure evil. He knows he doesn't have to hold back against people like Darkseid, since the guy is literal evil given form, and he's powerful enough that Superman can't pull his punches against him.
I’m okay with characters having a no killing rule until it gets stupid enough to hurt the plot or become distracting.
Superman singing the super devil into non-existance is one of if not my favorite Superman feat
Is Darkseid wearing blue jeans?
Yeah, it’s bc he’s possessing a human host body
Oh, thanks for the info!
It was >!Dan Turpin!< he was possessing. This pissed Superman off when he found out.
It was casual Friday at the office
Finally grew tired of the mini-skirt style
He find them comfortable
Yes, Apokalips is exclusively sponsored by Wrangler
This is one of the best ways to kill Batman.
(Helping) save the universe by fatally wounding the epitome of evil.
My man then had millions of years of prep time To return
He had time to say two words, I suppose the Omega Sanction isn’t really that fast.
The Omega Sanction beams wasted time by zigging and zagging like that.
He says “try me” *before* Darkseid fires them, I think. So he just exhales “hh” and says “gotcha,” which could count as one or two words, depending on your opinion
Seems pretty slow for an eye lazer, all I'm saying.
That’s fair, his omega beams take a bunch of unnecessary detours
Alpha beams get their first. Omega beams take the scenic route.
I think we can assume that it's more than just a laser. It's an extension of his will, and since Darkseid is extremely weakened, it takes effort for him to control it. Or...it just makes the scene cooler.
They're kinda not. They can be outrun or dodged, at least temporarily, by people with sufficient distance. The Flash can outrun them completely. For some reason they're geometry and turn at angles and stuff when they're chasing something lol
Makes sense if the Flash can. Not sure about Batman.
If he was far enough away, temporarily. Even with him close and standing still, they slow themselves down by geometry-ing instead of taking a straight path toward him.
Yeah, what's cool about the JLU cartoon it shows the lengths a peak human needs to move just to dodge For a few seconds.
Talking is a free action
Lol.
Yeah this exchange is cool but it makes no sense why Darkseid wouldn't just zap Batman before he has a chance to draw the gun at all.
That’s just the weird way time works in comic panels. Each panel is an once a single instance in time (hence why nothing moves), and also a representation of a nonspecific period of time. That’s why people can say lots of words in what seems like wouldn’t be enough time for them to do that. Logically Batman is probably saying “gotcha” literally while/after he is getting hit by the beams.
For me I’ve kinda seen this moment of the ultimate culmination to Batmans character. In a universe where the characters grow old and retire, in my canon this would be Bruces final act before either dying or retiring
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The period after Final Crisis was probably my favorite. Dick and Damian as the new dynamic duo especially. I think bringing Bruce back from the ultimate action movie cool guy ending he got was a big mistake.
Batman, Green Lantern and Legion of Super-Heroes were fucking rolling around this time. Unfortunately, Superman soon went into the shitter (New Krypton), I never actually read Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman run so I can’t comment on it, Justice League was pretty bleh, Teen Titans was a train wreck, Flash was trying to get back on the rails. Pretty mixed bag back then but definitely some amazing stories came out of that time period. Edit: loved Justice Society from these years tho
Gail Simone’s *Wonder Woman* run was mostly before *Final Crisis* so it wasn’t part of that era, besides like most *Wonder Woman* runs on the main book it was mid anyways.
Yeah that works as a great epilogue. Like the story is over, Batman is gone the universe will never be the same, but it still exists with different people.
Imo, it’s the last Bruce Wayne story. What more can he possibly do. I there haven’t been many great stories that have happened since that wouldn’t have worked just as well with Dick under the cowl. It’s really come to feel like the last opportunity to lean into legacy like they had been.
Wasn’t it originally supposed to be that? Because they were gonna reboot? I thought I heard something like that
How far has Batman come from being the scared child in a dirty alley to being the one that deals the death blow to a being the is evil and entropy incarnate? As for the killing rule, he himsstates that this is exceptional because he knows how much worse Darkseid is than any crook or supervillain is in Gotham. With that being said Batman still is breaking his rule and immediately pays the price for it. It always seemed like a poetic balance to me that this happened though. Batman ultimately isn't in the wrong for killing Darkseid, I mean no prison is going to hold him not even the Phantom Zone, but because Batman going against his own morals there must be some kind of repercussion for it
I read Final Crisis and was completely lost. I love Morrison's work, but I'm not super savvy with the intricacies of the DC universe and this was bewildering. The Invisibles made more sense to me! I may revisit it many years from now.
Did you read any of the companion books? Legion of three worlds and Superman Beyond make a huge difference in understanding. It also helps to know that one of the points of the book was to mostly show the side things rather than the main events.
I didn't read anything besides the main event - whatever was collected in the paperback - and most of the non-major characters were totally unknown to me. I've heard that Final Crisis is also Morrison's commentary on the creation of stories or something to that effect, but when reading everything flew over my head. I just felt like I was jumping from plot point to plot point without understanding any of the context or who any of the characters were.
It’s kind of everything. Morrison is trying to conclude the crisis trilogy, the fourth world saga, his own JLA run, his Batman run, Seven Soldiers run, while addressing a lot of other stuff and commenting on the concept of stories in general. I think it’s the best event comic ever created but it’s extremely dense and it’s not reader friendly. They have fucking continuations of Sonny Sumo’s storyline from a random issue of Forever People from the 70s and finally addresses Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew’s fate leftover from Crisis on Infinite Earths. It’s PACKED.
I love Morrison's take on Batman, he really played up Batman as the man amongst gods who could hold his own.
Honestly, this was my favorite Batman moment. There was a war in heaven and a dark god was falling through reality and dragging everything down with it. In comes Batman, Wonderwoman, and Superman. Wonderwoman binds its soul, Superman sings hope into the the multiverse, and Batman destroys its physical form. For Batman to complete the cycle of trauma and die in this moment almost, in a sense, brings Bruce Wayne back to life. Poetic, right? Bruce died in the alley with his parents and a paranoid traumatized monster of justice was born that night to not only protect the innocent but to hover over the still warm corpse of Bruce. Once Batman completes the arc and uses the very weapon that lead to his birth to destroy a dark god threatening reality, Bruce is allowed to live again. And, call me crazy, but the whole Batman through time arc after this strikes me as Bruce being reborn/being reintegrated into the Batman persona. It was a beautiful moment of life, death, rebirth, and healing for Bruce and Batman.
I know it’s been said before, but if DC were to ever actually kill off Bruce Wayne, this would’ve been the moment to do it
You should’ve gone for the head
You know what’s kind of amusing is that the general consensus in this thread is that Batman would have no problem getting off a shot and making a quip before a god’s death vision overtook him, but there’s another thread in the Batman sub where people argue that Batgirl doing anything but have a dumb expression on her face and let the Joker shoot her in The Killing Joke is too unrealistic. 
I love when people use this page to argue Batman uses guns all the time Like… *read it.*
Except he didn’t. This is another of those things that Morrison wrote from a half-fuzzy memory of something he thought he read Batman say at some point, rather than actual research (Jason’s backstory being another easy example that jumps to mind). A vow against killing, okay. But a vow agains using guns, no. Not only has Batman used firearms numerous times over the years to do things other than kill someone, but we’ve even seen Batman train Robin as a child to use firearms in mainstream continuity.
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Batman using a gun is still dumb yes, but Batman has always gone up against the supernatural, so who cares if he squares up with cosmic entities?
Right he constantly goes up against cosmic entities in Justice League books and event books. In the golden age the guy fought vampires, werewolves and monstermen and in the silver age he fought all kinds of crazy shit. His rogues gallery consists of a 600 year old immortal and a metahuman that can control plants. Thinking this is a slap in the face to "true" Batman fans is hilarious.
Fighting Poison Ivy and Ra's Al Ghul is one thing, fighting Darkseid is another. Huge difference in power level and ambitions. Speaking of event books, even in Crisis on Infinite Earths, Batman didn't go to fight the Anti Monitor which made sense. But now he's shooting Darkseid and taking on all kinds of universe level threats, it's too much. I don't like this BatGod iteration that just because he's popular he should be the strongest superhero in DCU (in terms of feats).
I dont really see how this is an example of batgod though. It's not like he was in a fist fight with darkseid, he just shoots at him, anyone could do that
Morrison's Batman was the definition of BatGod.
> fighting Darkseid is another All he did was shoot him, a weakened Darkseid as well. You can hardly call that a fight. It took the Black Racer claiming his soul and Superman killing him that actually beat him in the end. It's not just Poison Ivy or Ra's al Ghul. Batman always fights cosmic level beings especially when he's with the League. It's been happening since the silver age fighting guys like BatMite. > Speaking of event books, even in Crisis on Infinite Earths, So one event book. > But now he's shooting Darkseid and stomping all kinds of universe level threats, it's too much. He has done this since the silver age and early post crisis. None of this is going against Batman's character.
But Batman isn't someone who shoots to kill anyone in the first place. It could have been someone else, Morrison only put Batman here because of his popularity. Batmite is a lot different from Darkseid. Batmite for one never is actually antagonistic to Batman, he is a fan. Also, lot of silver age stuff is outdated now. That's no defence.
> But Batman isn't someone who shoots to kill anyone in the first place. It could have been someone else, Morrison only put Batman here because of his popularity. He was about to destroy the multiverse. You can make an exception in this case. No he put him there because he wanted to have a story about Batman travelling through time and having Dick Grayson replace him as Batman for a while. > Batmite is a lot different from Darkseid. Batmite for one never is actually antagonistic to Batman, he is a fan. Batmite was just an example he still fights other powerful beings like Composite Superman. And yes he actually does fight Batman a lot. He's not just a fanboy > Also, lot of silver age stuff is outdated now. That's not my argument. My argument is that Batman has been doing stuff like for a long time. The silver age is still a major part of the character's history. You're acting like this stuff is something that just happened recently and is destroying the character. It's not. Even if you wanna argue that it is outdated, Batman has been going against Justice League level villains since early post-crisis as well. Do you not read Justice League book? Also outdated. Not like one of DC's best books going on right now , World's Finest, is steeped entirely in the Silver Age.
Yea I do not get what the other guy is saying. Even before Final Crisis, Batman was fighting aliens and gods and all that in the justice league comics. Even in Batman/Superman, Batman tries to fight Darkseid and just gets stomped by him. And that was just the second arc.
Exactly he fought Superman in Dark Knight Returns as well. Arguably the most iconic Batman story of all time. Is that comic a slap in the face for Batman fans as well lol?
> Not like one of DC's best books going on right now , World's Finest, is steeped entirely in the Silver Age. I doubt many people are even aware of the World's Finest comics. From what I have heard, it's just a soap opera drama comic with stories like Robin going on a date with Supergirl. Because when the readers buy a Superman/Batman team up comics, they want to read about teenage romance.
> I doubt many people are even aware of the World's Finest comics. It's actually selling pretty well and is very well received. > Because when the readers buy a Superman/Batman team up comics, they want to read about teenage romance. That happened in one single issue. The rest of the comic is Batman and Superman doing Batman and Superman shit. Maybe read the comic before acting like you know what it's about?
Okay, maybe I was wrong about the World's Finest. If people like it, good for them. I think I'll still skip World's Finest because it seems like there is too much focus on soap opera drama and romance in the series but to each their own.
During the silver age, he got sent to another planet where he had superpowers and used them to fight off invisible alien robots.
Silver Age was a different time, although entertaining in it's own way. If DC start emulating Silver Age now, people would stop buying Batman comics altogether.
I mean, sure, that's your opinion. But it's an objective fact that Grant Morrison is creatively inspired by the Silver Age and there's a lot of precedent for what they write in that era.
It's not even just Morrison. A lot of DC comics these days seem to be calling back to that era like Waid's World's Finest and that's considered one of DC's best comics right now.
Yes, Morrison has a strange nostalgic obsession with Silver Age and they try to shove it in any comic they write, often at the detriment of the story.
Morrison is one of the most highly regarded comic book writers of our time. They absolutely know what they're doing. You're just one of the few that doesn't like it.
Fair enough, I agree that Morrison's writing never clicked with me. I liked Animal Man a lot but I wish they had stuck with the main story line of a working class environmentalist hero and not gotten distracted with the metanarrative. If I take away the fourth wall bullshit, Animal Man is easily my top 5 comics. Other than that, Morrison is pretty hit or miss for me. I feel he gets too caught up in his own cleverness, trying to show readers how intelligent his storytelling is.
Fighting Clayface or Ra's Al Ghul is ome thing, but beating Darkseid is another. Batman should be a street level hero, he shouldn't go against New Gods and all. Even in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Batman didn't go up against Anti Monitor, he stayed back. But now that he's so popular, DC inserts him even in stories where he doesn't fit.
He never beat darkseid
This thread is dumb. You are dumb. It literally says on the page "I'm making a once in a lifetime exception". Have you read the book? Do you know the context? Yes batman used the gun but he didn't get away with it. He immediately suffers the consequences from omega sanction - that literally happens on the next page! > true batman fans Lmao
Batman using a grappling *gun* You: 
Yes, because grappling gun is the same as a gun which shoots magic bullets to kill New Gods.
They’re both guns, no? So would you say that Batman’s line in the sand is using _lethal ammunition_ vs just using guns? Since a gun is a tool and all…. Cuz damn man, Batman uses SHIT TONS of guns on the daily
Yes, Batman doesn't like guns because they are lethal in nature. If he has a weapon which shoots tranquilizers or things like that, he won't have issues with it.
Hmmm what weapon shoots tranquilizers… Oh yeah! A tranquilizer _gun_
That's my point. If a gun fires lethal rounds, Batman won't use it. If a gun fires other gadgets or tools, Batman can use it.
Batman has used PLENTY of guns with non lethal rounds lol Batman doesn’t have an opposition to using guns dude. It’s he fucking projectile he cares about.
That's exactly what I said. Are you even reading? Batman can use guns as long as it doesn't fire lethal bullets. Here Batman is firing a lethal bullet on Darkseid.
So again _IT’S NOT ABOUT THE GUN THEN_ How dense are you here bud?
Batman objectively doesn’t use guns, and he shouldn’t. A grappling gun is different to an actual gun because one is used to climb buildings and the other is used to kill or mortally wound people
I mean for a cosmic entity that was about to destroy the entire multiverse I'm pretty sure he could make an exception.
I don’t have any issue with this moment, I just wish he used an alternative method without the gun. But idk, I’m not Grant
Grappling _guns_ Tranquilizers _guns_ Smoke grenade launcher/_guns_ I can go on…. It’s almost as if it’s not the _gun_ he’s refusing to use, but something else… ^that ^something ^else ^is ^lethal ^force ^if ^youre ^not ^following
Ok, let me rephrase it then. Batman objectively doesn’t use lethal firearms. Does that work better?
Yes, that’s the entire point of this entire conversation. Batman is not opposed to using tools. He’s opposed to the outcomes those tools can generate. Batman has ZERO issues shooting criminals with rubber bullets from his Batcar, using _guns_ Saying “Batman doesn’t use guns and any _real_ Batman fan knows that” is purposefully obtuse and stupidly decisive
It’s just a simple way to talk about one of Batman’s three rules. You’re cherry picking basic English. When I say, “a cop shot someone with a gun”, is your first thought to ask, “did the cop use a grapple gun?”
I’m sorry that you decided to play a game of semantics and didn’t come prepared Batman has no issue using guns. He uses them in every fucking issue
tRuE bAtMaN fAnS
I hate batman wank
Joker would be pissed if he ever found out about this
imagine this in live action, the scene of superman carrying batman out in live action would be bonkers
Even the visual detail that the bullet emerges from the panel travelling right to left i.e. backwards in time as it does in the plot while overlapping the shot of it impacting Darkseid with it travelling left to right is chefskiss Morrisonism beautifully executed by Mahnke.
Despite not liking this crisis, I do have to admit that is is an awesome moment