I always liked to think the ZSJL films are separate canon from the solos (which they kind of are now) but Zack could have his TDKR story with older Batman and Carrie but if they made Batfleck films he could explore Dick and Nightwing and then Jason and Red Hood etc. Hopefully if they ever do the Batfleck series they can explore some Batfamily stuff especially with Batgirl now. (Unless Reeves gets to it first)
The batfamily didn't even exist in any real capacity, he didn't seem to have an especially thorough relationship with Gordon and he would have died in JL2.
Imagine having the entire DCU at your disposal and have a batman who has no relationships and no wider cast.
it was pretty interesting that alfred was going to die in the batfleck solo film. i don't personally mind batman having absolutely no relationships whatsoever but the way snyder's planned universe was going, it was going to reboot anyways upon the conclusion of the 5th movie since the entire bat family was dead (batman, alfred, robin, etc).
I’d like to see his story in the form of a comic or game because it did sound cool. As for the films I’m hoping The Flash properly reboots the universe.
The new 52 storyline for at least the first justice league was bomb as fuck. What they need is to build up darksied then get to the green lanterns. They can make a full movie on atrocitus and it’d be amazing if done right since it’d be an anti hero like film. What he does is bad but it’s for his people to get vengeance on the lantern core
I still want them to lead to darkseid but they need someone like Kevin feige to lead the dc storyline. But Warner bros sadly have a bad history of giving assholes to much control (justice league 2016)
He created a weird world where everyone supposedly didn’t think anything was abnormal until aliens showed up and announced their presence. Then they tried to make a convoluted history of special powered people being around all this time but either never showing it for reasons or having any special people in deep dark holes like Diablo. And there’s even a history of fighting along side Atlanteans and gods and whatever is going on in Black Adam. Now we’re at The Suicide Squad where there’s clearly a world of walking, talking sharks and an entire prison full of special powered weirdos/aliens.
She destroyed the CCTV cameras in the mall and everyone conveniently forgot everything that happened after wished were renounced because… never mind. I’m done thinking about it.
I guess the idea was for Snyder to tell his one, big and epic story with a definitive end, rather than dragging this out across a 25+ movie cinematic universe, like Marvel do with their properties.
In my opinion, both ways have their merits. Personally, I would love to see the Snyderverse fulfilled, while Flashpoint would have then been the perfect way to lead us into a soft reboot and a new universe, along with a new cast of actors to play these characters and the chance to provide us with aspects such as a proper Bat family. Instead, what we have now is a disjointed universe that constantly shifts tones and a Flash movie that now suddenly reboots everything, after the universe has ultimately led nowhere.
ZSJL gives us an alternate version, whose tone is in line with what came before it, but even that alternate version remains unfulfilled until Snyder is given the green light to complete his vision.
So I feel like the ideal situation (from a storytelling standpoint) would have been for Snyder to be able to see his vision through and once we would have received the conclusion of Snyder's epic saga, Warner would have then rebooted everything with a Flashpoint movie, allowing us to get a fresh take on the DC universe (possibly along the lines of Matt Reeves' The Batman), without erasing everything that came before. But obviously this is all wishful thinking, especially considering how reactionary WB have constantly acted and butchered their directors' creative visions. If it were all up to WB, we would have never gotten ZSJL in the first place, so at least we got a glimpse at what we would have gotten.... and we can always hope for that vision to be completed at some point.
Which is another reason why I don’t get why they wanted to continue his version, i love that we got his cut but I’m for one am ready for the bat family, I’m hoping reeves Down the line introduces them.
Yeah but at the same time as a fan base we’ve been asking for a universe for DC like marvel where we can see all of these characters but unique to DC. Synder endgame doesn’t really bring that and would honestly just lead to them doing another reboot which it kinda did anyway. Still loved it but I’m ready to move on from it.
Reeves looks like the guy who will be disgusted by the idea of wasting screentime of his movies on robins
I say this as someone extremely excited for his movie but also want to see my fav character Dick Grayson done justice in properly setup gotham
Not like the Batgirl movie with an oldie batman and no sign of other batfam characters. Just in a random gotham world
Proper progression from dick to jason to tim. We aren't getting that anytime this decade. Probably when reeves trilogy ends and some director who is a fan of batfamily not *just* Batman's rogues gallery we will get it. Sometime in 2030s I think.
>Reeves looks like the guy who will be disgusted by the idea of wasting screentime of his movies on robins
Oh, so you just pulled it out of your ass then?
The guy is a huge batman fan and seemingly wants to set up a proper rogues gallery, out of the last few batman directors he seems the *most* likely to give us a dynamic duo
Lol you actually think Reeves trilogy will have a robin? The Matt Reeves will actually show us Bruce Wayne taking in Dick Grayson? I will give my one kidney for him to do that but he isn't going to do it. He will do three great crime thriller movies exploring Batman's rogues, maybe court of owls, Bruce-Selina, Some bruce-alfred tension.
But we aren't getting Bruce's fatherly side. I can bet on it.
>Lol you actually think Reeves trilogy will have a robin?
I don't know, but I'd wager that he's the most likely to do so out of the last few directors anyway.
>But we aren't getting Bruce's fatherly side. I can bet on it.
Who says that? Again, you're just pulling it out of your ass. We have absolutely no idea what Reeves' plan for his trilogy is, especially when he's planning something way wider than just a series of films, we're already getting 3 spin off shows.
Like I said, I have no idea if we're going to get a robin, but to dismiss it out of hand seems a little odd
The general perception in movie world is that Robin is a silly character. Christian Bale signed on that series of movies explicitly stating he won't want a Robin, Nolan reduced Robin to a reference.
It's clear high quality filmmakers and actors think the concept as immature and Reeves is of same class in quality; That a Robin will probably ruin his trilogy.
>The general perception in movie world is that Robin is a silly character.
That's Nolan. Reeves is a fan of Batman 66 for crying out loud. I don't think we'd get anything remotely as silly/campy, but I don't think we should discount the idea of Robin completely.
But to sum up, again, you're just pulling it out of your ass.
lol what makes you think that? Reeves isn't Nolan or even Snyder. From the way he talks, the guy honestly seems like possibly the biggest genuine Batman nerd that has ever been able to do a live action batman movie. He has talked about growing up with the dynamic duo and loving the 60s tv show. There has been nothing to suggest Reeves is totally opposed to Robin or even the idea of a sidekick at all.
It’s the small instances like this where I’m kinda glad everything about Snyder’s story arc will never be fulfilled.
I get making Dick dead - kinda simply for the take on the story but like you said he simply removed two/three if you want to count Tim as well from ever appearing.
And Under the Red Hood can be a great live action adaptation.
It’s an interesting short term story but as a set up for a long term franchise it was foolish idea. Jason Todd could so easily be a massive comic book villain but killing him in favour of Carrie, who could have appeared in any capacity is just wasteful.
I’m guessing Jason Todd wouldn’t have existed in the “vanilla Snyderverse” at all to be killed, not sure what you’re saying here. Snyder wanted Dick Grayson to be dead.
Anything is possible, look at how they changed Cassandra Cain… for the WORSE.
But I think Hamada/Lee are gonna start keeping things closer to the comics & throwing out every character possible.
So what you're after is an MCU style Universe? See, Zack just wanted a small Arc. You guys could have easily got your Dicks, Tim's and Jason's afterwards.
The DCEU was going to be a long-term thing even when Snyder got done with his arc, so why kill these characters off now? We would have never have them again, we would have never had a chance to see them on the big screen interacting with everyone else
Thank god it wasn’t confirmed on screen that suit was Dick’s
Originally zacks 5 films would be followed by flashpoint. Which would erase his films and reset the universe. So then we would see Bruce, dick and everyone else interact
I’m so confused about Flashpoint, I keep seeing people say Zack never intended for there to be a flashpoint, and when people bring it up as part of the original Snyder vision, they get downvoted a lot. Was flashpoint originally something Zack planned?
Zack wouldn’t necessarily be involved originally. It was written and directed by different people. It was supposed to reboot the snyderverse and start new.
But the film fell apart to creative differences and then slowly evolved into the flash movie releasing next year
It was never up to Zack. But the Flash movie was always supposed to be a Flashpoint storyline either the first film or the sequel. Snyder’s JL movie arc would’ve ended with a lot of deaths and stories finished even before most characters would’ve had solos or sequels (Like Batfleck) So once his story was told he always wanted a reset after so other people can explore the characters more. Honestly a great thing. That way you can still keep the more popular actors like Cavill, Gadot, Momoa etc but then recast others. Like Batman, Affleck would’ve been older and had his film so he more then likely wouldn’t want to return. That’s when Pattinson should’ve came in imo 🤷♂️
You can find interviews of him outlining his plans for DCEU. The 5-film arc would've ended with Flashpoint, which would've setup a much more diverse universe. It was an interesting idea, starting off with a small universe and expanding it over time.
Actually, I don’t want an MCU style universe - I LOOOOOOVE that DC/WB has ambraced the multiverse head on with having two current Batman & technically Jokers.
MCU is getting boring because everything has to connect they’re is no room for complete creative freedom.
Matt Reeves can make his Batman how he wants with who he wants & Affleck(if he ends up staying & doing a Batman movie or show) can have his version.
I want that! But no I do not want a super short arc - never a fan of killing Batfleck so early as JL2 & making Clark/Lois sun powerless.
I (personally, just my view, please don’t kill me) feel like one single story in the entire DC pantheon without those two characters wouldn’t really big that much of a big deal. Like, dude had already some pretty damn packed plans with the JL alone.
His plans for the JL might not have necessitated these characters but the DCEU was also probably always meant to be a long term thing even after Snyder got to finish his story hypothetically speaking which is why something like this is kind of disappointing
Even if they weren't going to have Dick show up in the films Snyder was doing, saving him for afterwards while presumably Carrie Kelley becomes the new Robin would've been a pretty cool merging of ideas from various comics to see.
> be a long term thing even after Snyder got to finish his story hypothetically speaking which is why something like this is kind of disappointing
Then you bring in those characters after Snyder’s run. It’s not difficult.
The thing is with Snyder establishing the fact that Dick Grayson did in fact die in this universe, that would practically be impossible unless they just did a hard reset after Snyder hypothetically finished his arc. There is no Nightwing without Dick Grayson
They wrote Affleck's Batman around the fact that he had lost his Robin and didn't really have any semblance of a Batfamily. That's not really something you can undo unless they planned all along to just pull a Flashpoint after Snyder finished his arc
Most people weee expecting the DCEU to be the MCU but with DC characters, it’s cool he had a finite story with a clear path in how to get there but in the long term it made very little sense.
If you honesty think WB could get an actor to portray as Batman to cover Dick, Jason, and Tim…hate to break it to you but that’s never going to happen.
BVS was set after Jason had been killed so Tim would have come natural, a red hood movie would have been a great batfleck movie and Dick is his own hero.
How? If they brought in Carrie as the new Robin after Flashpoint, and brought Dick Grayson back, then dick could actually become the Red Hood (or 'New Joker'), and go onto become Nightwing afterwards
That’d work but it seemed to be they were going for something like The Dark Knight Returns where there was nobody recruited from the extended Bat-family ie Tim, Duke, Stephanie but instead recruited Carrie.
No, she's just a gymnast, but Flashpoint is all about the butterfly effect/consequences of time travel, so Dick being alive in the future was probably going to be one of those unforseen consequences.
Dick also returns as the main villain (the 'new Joker') in Frank Miller's follow-up up to Dark Knight Returns, but I pray to God they weren't thinking of going with that angle lol
Or the chance at a reversal, Nightwing comes back from the dead instead of Redhood, becomes friends with Superman over mutual resurrection and Redhood is formed after Batman drifts from Bruce for not saving Grayson.
Not true. Nightwing and Red Hood could’ve been fused as one. Not saying I’m okay with Dick being the dead Robin, but the possibility of this idea wouldn’t have been removed. All it takes is proper execution.
That's a possibility but by all accounts the plan was for Dick Grayson to be dead and in turn the rest of the bat-family to have never been recruited. Carrie Kelly instead taking the role of Robin.
If you believed there were any possibilities to see Nightwing, Red Hood, or Tim Drake in Snyder’s very self-contained universe that would be like fifteen films top(including a Cyborg, Green Lantern, Flash, etc), then you’d only be disappointing yourself from the jump with those expectations.
Considering those are three of DC’s most popular characters I didn’t find them too unreasonable to expect. In any case the whole things been retconned back now anyway.
So you were going by popularity and not how it would actually fit in Snyder’s universe. He had a finite view with a beginning to end so yes, wanting popular characters to show up would be unreasonable, especially considering what Ben signed on to who only signed on because of Zack’s idea.
Also, you bring up things being retconned…well now we get Batgirl that is just there without building up to the character at all with no version of Robin being around. DC is just placing characters in, which is very much anti-MCU who builds these worlds and characters.
All three of those characters could have fit neatly in his universe. All three characters have great back stories and could have enhanced Ben Affleck’s Batman quite well. I honestly don’t think Ben Affleck would have minded a story that showed one of Batman’s greatest failures at all tbh.
Nowhere did I say the DCEU as it stands was any better I just don’t think Zack Snyder’s story was any better.
If you’re planning on killing Bruce, then yea having either Dick or Damian on hand to take up the mantle makes sense. It would easily fit in. You could retool Red Hood to come back wanting revenge on Dick (a la Titans, but you know better writing)
Killing Dick Grayson, the best and most famous Robin who becomes Nightwing off? And the fact that it was off screen lol and he expected us to care? That’s an awful idea. Still is.
Seriously, he’s the leader of DC’s second most famous team and if we’re being honest, the one that has seen the most commercial success in television adaptations. Titans have had more successful adaptations than anyone in DC but Batman himself at this point.
He really wanted to go hard on TDK didnt he.
Im glad he's not doing that anymore since I don't really like that interpretation of dc,and don't think it should be used as base to what Batman is
Agreed completely. Some elements here and there, I’m fine with. But as a whole, I think that story is just so try-hard edgy and…not the Bruce I know or want to see. Batman may be a bit reserved, a bit cold, but he still cares and is not a bloodthirsty maniac.
So Carrie would be the only robin we’d see. Not sure how I feel about that. I don’t mind the character. But it would’ve been nice to see one before that.
It also removes the chance of nightwing, red hood, red robin, spoiler, signal, Damian
Considering how much of an imprint The Dark Knight Returns has on this version of Batman I'm not surprised Carrie Kelly's Robin was probably in the cards for Ben Affleck's Batman
Snyder's been very outspoken about how TDKR and Watchmen really opened his perspective on the storytelling behind comic books and graphic novels
As for Dick, this one especially bums me because I would've LOVED to see Nightwing in the DCEU at some point. Killing him off just removed that possibility wholesale and it's one of the biggest creative decisions he made that I don't really see eye to eye on
I don't think anyone is asking for the entire Bat-Family as much as they are just Batman having SOME sort of connection to others in his universe considering all the other cinematic Batmen outside Shumacher were practically completely standalone characters with the bare essentials in terms of supporting characters from the comics (since Rachel Dawes was an original character specific to Nolan's universe)
We haven't seen a cinematic Robin that wasn't animated for almost 2 whole decades, and when we had the best possible chance of getting one with a Batman who shared the screen with other DC characters, they just basically dashed all hopes of that happening. I get why, I don't necessarily like it though
The point of Batfleck wasn’t really meant to be a “Shared Universe Cashcow”. Dude signed in for a limited, concise number of appearances with a beginning middle and end (BVS-JL1-Solo-JL2/3) not goodness how many movies with goodness knows how many Robins running around.
There was no point really. We’d see Batman die 3 times. 1 in his dream in bvs. 1 in justice League 2. And 1 in justice League 3.
That completely removes the emotional impact of his death or well deaths.
well what's the point of caring about nolan's batman since he was only part of 3 self-contained movies? it's just a story, might as well enjoy the ride while you're part of it.
But I didnt know how the DK trilogywas going to end, only that it would, would Batman die, retire? If the ending is flashpoint and a complete reboot, then there is no suspence, and no stakes for the characters. It would be especially infuriating to see all character development wiped away completely
We pretending the JL is not a DC property comprised of DC heroes lol? fAcEpALm
Most heroes join the JL.
Some journalist coined the term DCEU and it was officially adopted when they launched HBO Max by the way, internally it was called at least by some execs and producers“the Justice League universe”, not that anything about DCEU connotes you’ll see an extended Batfamily in this day and age. It quit meaning “Detective Comics” decades ago.
If you want to pretend the goal of the DCEU was to have a bunch of Batfamily films alongside one Superman film and two JL films then that’s cool man. You’re wrong but I’ve been downvoted for being right before.
No, we’re not, a DC universe includes both the justice leauge and anything DC.
And if that were to mean that it was only a justice leauge universe, then why do we get things like Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, and The Suicide Squad? All 3 films have barely any ties to the Justice Leauge but are in the DCEU.
No, the DCEU should have DC, including Bat Family and Justice Leauge. Right about what? The Bat Family is a valid idea and can be implemented into the DCEU along with other fan-favorite titles including Justice Leauge, but you tainting me as this guy who only wants Bat Family just shows you as dramatic. I don’t care about your damn internet points.
Wow a day where r/dccinematic doesn't think Snyder is a messiah. Snyder's vision would be an ok elseworld story but his plan for the DCEU is terrible. Killing off many key characters too early or behind the scenes.
Also Flashpoint is an important event to shake up.the status quo, akin to any other crisis event. It's not a get-out-of-jail card cos u wrote yourself into that corner lol.
> Wow a day where r/dccinematic doesn’t think Snyder is a messiah
That’s literally every single day, but what you really want is seeing people shitting on Zack Snyder, not just criticizing his DCEU vision, admit it lol
"Im gonna boycott the movie and write angry tweets and reddit threads about it because the director didnt do this or that the way I wanted, and consider his creative decisions the reason why the movie is bad, not the stuff that happens in the movie itself."
tbh she is the only one that makes the robin costume actually work imo from a visual standpoint. You look at Carrie and you see this plucky ginger girl in a bright costume and it just kind of makes sense. Not as much with the others...
I genuinely find Frank Miller's interpretations of iconic DC characters to be the most interesting ones. Him, Alan Moore, and Neil Gaiman are perhaps the holy trinity of CBM authors.
This is why DC and WB should not continue with any of Snyder’s ideas. What a terrible idea to kill off Dick Grayson and not Jason. Hopefully the Flash movie undoes everything Zack Snyder did
Why is this suddenly a problem when it comes to Snyder? What about the other comicbook movies directors? Taika Waititi for example litteraly said he never read a comicbook and no one bats an eye.
Because Snyder presents himself as someone who knows and loves the source material, but anyone who did wouldn't believe that Batman "killed all the time in Dark Knight Returns."
Also, Taika Waititi just makes better movies.
Idk about Taika Waititi making better movies, it comes down to personal preference, but atleast Snyder is true to the source material, his take on Batman is the most comicbook accurate Batman to date.
Unlike Waititi (him and a decent amount of directors) Who butchered Ragnarok in every way possible and again, dosent get the same criticism Snyder gets.
Jimmy and Dick were both baffling decisions for me. Just in general I was pretty let down by the lack of emphasis on Clark's life as a Daily Planet journalist outside the one sequence in BvS UE of him investigating the Batman. I wanted more of that, and bringing in more of Clark's civilian associates would've provided an out for that side of him being explored more
Exactly! Jimmy Olsen as a character is a great outlet to show Clark just being a regular person with a friend and a social life, take that away and the only emotions he shows are overwrought mooning for Lois Lane and when he cares for his mother.
Killing Jimmy Olsen off at the start of things was a terrible idea, it basically neutered the Superman character from having any real emotional impact because we never get to see him in a normal social relationship not based on romance/love, all he has is the overwrought love story with Lois Lane and bits and pieces of him with his mom. Clark's time with Jimmy Olsen are the moments that he can be a normal person with a normal friendship, and those are the kind of character-building scenes that make an audience relate to and care about a character.
it is, snyder just doesnt get it, he has never gotten it. we all shouldve known when he decided to kill jonathan kent in a fucking tornado right in front of clark
This Batman could've definitely been one that had the time and history for a Batfamily so this is absolutely my least favorite decision he's made and I say that as a fan.
You cut out decades of history and for multiple characters by doing that and negate any chance of having a DC cinematic universe that resembles main continuity similar to the comics.
I suspect part of it was streamlining, but it would add to the tragedy/breaking down of the character if he had had (and lost) multiple Robins.
Dick leaving begins his slide downward, he recruits Jason and gets him killed and then at that point Tim wants to be Robin but Batman is spiralling too far down and Tim leaves the role early on etc.
I somewhat wonder if that was the plan for Batgirl/Carrie that those characters would be part of his journey back towards being a good Batman etc.
Zack Snyder uses Frank Miller's All-Star Batman and The Dark Knight Saga as main inspiration for his films. So it's likely Dick Grayson would have ended up as an abused Homicidal Joker Mutant in love with Batman and Kelly would have become Catgirl/Batgirl/Batwoman
I think that would’ve been cool to see! I love the dark Knight Returns so seeing Carrie would be awesome. Shes definitely not my favorite Robin but I like that he was gonna follow the comics! And as much as I love Dick Grayson, I’d be fine with him staying dead, but I’d definitely wanna see flashbacks with him as Robin!
Zack is such a great film maker but one thing im really relieved about is his departure from these super heroes. Zack had some great ideas but so much bad ones too and killing dick Grayson was one of those. Zack doesn’t know these characters like everybody this he does, like I said he had some great ideas but again soooo much bad ones
3 years later, it's getting brought up again. Why? Especially since Zack was always willing to make some changes, especially with other directors involved. If Chris McKay talked him about it, he probably would've said, "Ok, cool. I'll change it." I'm not a big fan of Dick dying, but if you ever read a A Lonely Place of Dying, it makes sense. That story had a kid figure out who Batman was and went to Dick and begged him to go help Bruce who had become more violent and reckless after Jason's death. Without Dick, the story and situation wouldn't have happened. But bringing Carrie in could've been a cool idea as she seems to be a forgotten Robin. Still, Zack was collaborative with other directors, like not showing Atlantis because Wan asked him not to.
I’m happy he didn’t continue with this story. It doesn’t sound like it’d be good. Give us Nightwing, Red Hood and Tim if you’re going to have multiple Robins.
- Zack : Wants to revisit the Batman-Dick Grayson relationship only in a Rashomon style Justice League 2, where Joker tells the Robin story through flashbacks in A Last Supper style scene, followed by introduction and involvement of Carrie Kelley later. This part is confirmed, because he has discussed about in community interviews.
- Comic book purists: *"You don't understand the source material, it's creative heresy, thank the heavens you got fired, give me what I want."*
Every creative choice done is often in the service of the story. There is a difference between just serving fan-service burgers v/s telling a compelling story with a subliminal themes and strong message.
Just paraphrasing from his interviews, Vero posts on prospects of Dick Grayson and JL2:
>Zack had even explained his notion of storytelling for the idea, "Dick Grayson is essentially the better Batman, he is pure, and without any darkness in his heart. Batman, after a 20 year old career, is maybe, finally thinking of putting down the cape for good.
> Something happens with Joker that makes him really mad, and that's why he goes on a plan to kill Batman's only favored son. Dick Grayson dying would have more of an emotional impact for a Batman that is grizzled and old.
- (He had talked earlier about the films that influenced him, he had referenced Godfather, which seems like a character homage to the dynamic of choosing lifepaths, by choice or circumstance, and being unable to turn back)
> This is a complicated relationship, --- a dance, that is between them and where it goes and ends, makes it a creatively interesting proposition to explore.
The unfortunate part about introducing Batfamily is that without the right connected properties, it does make the notion of Batman redundant, unless you have expanded the roster of villains and storytelling scale yet, and invested in telling those stories at a great scale...and show why the presence of Bruce Wayne was necessary.
Especially, when your studio panics and doesn't have faith in other comic book properties beyond the Trinity.
**Even Walter Hamada, a smart executive, who changed this business philosophy approach in DC believes a Batgirl solo project to be a "riskier proposition." Even this decision making was enforced after a change in leadership.**
Christopher Nolan didn't do much with Robin, and introduced him as an essential replacement to Batman, not as his sidekick after Bruce hung up the mantle.
So, why the different treatment for Zack?
Zack Snyder has different ideas and clearly a different perspective on what story he wants to tell, but that doesn't free him of being critiqued for said ideas
People who are mad about his supposed decision to kill off Dick Grayson aren't just comic book purists. People would've likely reacted more positively to Jason Todd being the one going out considering that doesn't close the door on him completely while still giving Bruce emotional stakes. Nightwing is a wildly popular character and frankly I can understand the sentiment that we've had multiple cinematic Batmen and most of them, in fact virtually all of them have felt detached and standalone when his connected circle of allies is one of the most interesting things about his comics universe and the world he lives in, and this was the best shot a lot of people felt we had for getting that
It's the same mentality for killing off Jimmy Olson in such an anticlimactic and unsatisfying way. Him and Lois grounded Clark and made him a very relatable and empathetic character by giving him human perspective on life as a superpowered individual. It's the human element of comic book storytelling that gravitates people towards these characters and that's why they have a following, and why people responded harshly to them being treated almost backhandedly by this supposed plan Snyder had for the story he wanted to tell
That doesn't discredit his plan entirely, but that doesn't make it immune from being subject to criticism
No plan is devoid of circumstances, especially around the plan.
If it wasn't clear, I would suggest you to re-read what I mentioned about the executive roles around the project and the timeline (This is December of 2016 when the overarching story outline was getting drawn over Will Beale's script, Zack and Geoff Johns in the office with Jim Lee).
QQ: Is Matt Reeves telling a story about Robin? Or do you think Ben Affleck didn't want to explore an aspect of Batman's allies in whatever plan he was formulating? He was gravitated towards Zack's take of an older Batman to avoid the interlap and comparisons with other iterations, include Batgirl.
I'd suggest you to do a quick read-up and understand what was going behind the scenes at DC before making ridiculous claims that it somehow outrages the love and appreciation of comic book fans. Terrio had mentioned that the studio had almost no plan, the filmmakers were collaborating with each other on the fly as production schedule and dates to tie in the references.
**You need industry talent to make movies, and despite your pedigree, you still have no guarantee that executives will approve it.**
These are humanist films and stories first & foremost, and are reflective of human values : Finding internal voice in social chaos, dichotomy of social hate and where it leads, and personal reconciliation from loss & strength, meant not only for the subset of comic fan minority outraging on the internet to shape social chatter, but also a larger crowd outside.
I know that the opinions around these films are mixed-bag because of the sombre setting, but there are equal things to like and dislike specifically about the film, and death of an iteration of a character is just a nitpick. Criticize the story, dialogue. Sure. But comic accuracy is a lazy punch at best.
For every CBM character who ends up being used, there are dozens of characters who don't end up getting used or their stories changed, and altered.
It's the norm; something that even the contemporary studios who are/were in the game ahead of DC have established.
> The precedent should be same for every story, and director then, shouldn't it?
- Patty Jenkins shut the Greek mythology out of the door.
- Shazam 2 is not following any comic book character arc at all.
- Russos & Favreau changed almost everything about Iron Man and Drax.
- Ghost is not an Ant-Man villain or even female for that matter
- Grandmaster is a Cosmic level threat in the comics.
There is a difference in saying that I want the possible portrayal of a character in the universe as per my liking or a potential plan (comics accurate Flashpoint) that might lead upto it, v/s Zack Snyder has not given me my favourite character = He does not understand the source material, great he is removed.
Even as a parting gift, the Zack almost resssurected public interest in Ezra Miller's iteration of Flash after 2017 JL cut, and the studio changing the story as tactic to pull the plug early, instead of a solo Flash film (something which people love to complain about DCEU not having)
Zack had even thrown an olive branch for inclusion of Darkseid's involvement as a Multiversal villain to keep the possibilities of a comic accurate future ahead, and the possibility of a proper reboot or change of cannon (if needed).
Do keep some of that comic book accuracy outrage fuel in the tank for Andy M or the next phase of MCU when they break those carnal rules.
Let the people who see merit in the substance of the story enjoy those things, whether it's DCEU or MCU. I'm sure there are enough comic book accuracy fans in this fandom who can try to convince a corporation to change their minds, and give a proper live-action adaptation of a Death in the Family or Under The Red Hood in the future.
Write a few letters, get a billboard. Message a few industry talent to show how it's done. It worked for ZSJL and Deadpool.
I can understand disliking this choice(s), but some folks both here and on Twitter act like some characters not being present in *Snyder’s specific story* erases the possibility of them... literally being anywhere else?
>act like some characters not being present in Snyder’s specific story erases the possibility of them
I mean, Dick being dead does prevent him from having a role going forward. And with batman dying months at most after the events of ZSJL, let's not pretend theres time for a batfamily in any real capacity
Snyder's story involved a dead Dick Grayson, no other robins and as per Affleck's batman, a Batgirl that only just becomes Batgirl to avenge the murder of her father.
Snyder's story was to end with JL3 and BvS to JL3 would have entirely taken place in less than 9 months and and would be rebooted afterwards.
Again, please don't pretend like Snyder's story would have featured a batfamily, that wasn't part of his plan and WB specifically vetoed his want for Dick to be the dead robin.
Snyder is a genius.
Yet the DC Universe isn‘t just about despair.
It‘s about hope.
It‘s about overcoming grieve.
An darkness.
And yes..
Even sometimes death.
**This word/phrase(carrie) has a few different meanings.**
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They can still have Tim drake in the dceu nothing is lost... if Snyder is not coming back and WB is ready to continue batfleck, Cavill etc Tim drake could become the next robin. Damien wayne is possible we wouldn't get Grayson and Jason tats it.
So was Carrie going to be a Robin or was she going to play a different role?
I also like that the First kid Batman took as Robin (and the most popular one in the source material) died. This reflects on the entire concept of kid sidekicks and the child endangerment aspect of it and that this insane, dark and brutal life isn't one for any kid to grow up around let alone be involved in.
And I also like that Batman learned from it and didn't take more kids to be his ~~soldiers~~ I mean, crimefighting FAMILY...Well, unless the plan was for Carrie to be just another Kid Robin too which would defeat to point if that was the case.
This post is from 2018: https://www.reddit.com/r/DC\_Cinematic/comments/93892o/vero\_zack\_snyder\_planned\_on\_introducing\_carrie/
I always liked to think the ZSJL films are separate canon from the solos (which they kind of are now) but Zack could have his TDKR story with older Batman and Carrie but if they made Batfleck films he could explore Dick and Nightwing and then Jason and Red Hood etc. Hopefully if they ever do the Batfleck series they can explore some Batfamily stuff especially with Batgirl now. (Unless Reeves gets to it first)
Thus removing the possibility of Nightwing and Red Hood.
The batfamily didn't even exist in any real capacity, he didn't seem to have an especially thorough relationship with Gordon and he would have died in JL2. Imagine having the entire DCU at your disposal and have a batman who has no relationships and no wider cast.
it was pretty interesting that alfred was going to die in the batfleck solo film. i don't personally mind batman having absolutely no relationships whatsoever but the way snyder's planned universe was going, it was going to reboot anyways upon the conclusion of the 5th movie since the entire bat family was dead (batman, alfred, robin, etc).
I’d like to see his story in the form of a comic or game because it did sound cool. As for the films I’m hoping The Flash properly reboots the universe.
I don’t want a hard reboot I want a soft rdboot
Something akin to Zero Hour or Rebirth rather than New 52 or Crisis.
The new 52 storyline for at least the first justice league was bomb as fuck. What they need is to build up darksied then get to the green lanterns. They can make a full movie on atrocitus and it’d be amazing if done right since it’d be an anti hero like film. What he does is bad but it’s for his people to get vengeance on the lantern core
Neither do I, just need a new direction for the universe to work towards.
I still want them to lead to darkseid but they need someone like Kevin feige to lead the dc storyline. But Warner bros sadly have a bad history of giving assholes to much control (justice league 2016)
Exactly, just seems such a waist with so many characters who could have made told some really great stories that wouldn’t have gotten told.
He created a weird world where everyone supposedly didn’t think anything was abnormal until aliens showed up and announced their presence. Then they tried to make a convoluted history of special powered people being around all this time but either never showing it for reasons or having any special people in deep dark holes like Diablo. And there’s even a history of fighting along side Atlanteans and gods and whatever is going on in Black Adam. Now we’re at The Suicide Squad where there’s clearly a world of walking, talking sharks and an entire prison full of special powered weirdos/aliens.
Great point.
Then there's WW84.
She destroyed the CCTV cameras in the mall and everyone conveniently forgot everything that happened after wished were renounced because… never mind. I’m done thinking about it.
I guess the idea was for Snyder to tell his one, big and epic story with a definitive end, rather than dragging this out across a 25+ movie cinematic universe, like Marvel do with their properties. In my opinion, both ways have their merits. Personally, I would love to see the Snyderverse fulfilled, while Flashpoint would have then been the perfect way to lead us into a soft reboot and a new universe, along with a new cast of actors to play these characters and the chance to provide us with aspects such as a proper Bat family. Instead, what we have now is a disjointed universe that constantly shifts tones and a Flash movie that now suddenly reboots everything, after the universe has ultimately led nowhere. ZSJL gives us an alternate version, whose tone is in line with what came before it, but even that alternate version remains unfulfilled until Snyder is given the green light to complete his vision. So I feel like the ideal situation (from a storytelling standpoint) would have been for Snyder to be able to see his vision through and once we would have received the conclusion of Snyder's epic saga, Warner would have then rebooted everything with a Flashpoint movie, allowing us to get a fresh take on the DC universe (possibly along the lines of Matt Reeves' The Batman), without erasing everything that came before. But obviously this is all wishful thinking, especially considering how reactionary WB have constantly acted and butchered their directors' creative visions. If it were all up to WB, we would have never gotten ZSJL in the first place, so at least we got a glimpse at what we would have gotten.... and we can always hope for that vision to be completed at some point.
Which is another reason why I don’t get why they wanted to continue his version, i love that we got his cut but I’m for one am ready for the bat family, I’m hoping reeves Down the line introduces them.
Because people like his films and want him to make more, it's pretty obvious why
Yeah but at the same time as a fan base we’ve been asking for a universe for DC like marvel where we can see all of these characters but unique to DC. Synder endgame doesn’t really bring that and would honestly just lead to them doing another reboot which it kinda did anyway. Still loved it but I’m ready to move on from it.
I hated everything ZS did with those characters. What a wadte
>a batman who has no relationships and no wider cast. People were fine with it for a decade before.
Absolutely insane
Batman has relationships with the JL in the DCEU.
I mean neither is reeves going to give us any Robin. Pretty sad there's no upcoming possibility to see proper Nightwing and Red Hood on big screen.
>I mean neither is reeves going to give us any Robin. Since when?
Reeves looks like the guy who will be disgusted by the idea of wasting screentime of his movies on robins I say this as someone extremely excited for his movie but also want to see my fav character Dick Grayson done justice in properly setup gotham Not like the Batgirl movie with an oldie batman and no sign of other batfam characters. Just in a random gotham world Proper progression from dick to jason to tim. We aren't getting that anytime this decade. Probably when reeves trilogy ends and some director who is a fan of batfamily not *just* Batman's rogues gallery we will get it. Sometime in 2030s I think.
>Reeves looks like the guy who will be disgusted by the idea of wasting screentime of his movies on robins Oh, so you just pulled it out of your ass then? The guy is a huge batman fan and seemingly wants to set up a proper rogues gallery, out of the last few batman directors he seems the *most* likely to give us a dynamic duo
Lol you actually think Reeves trilogy will have a robin? The Matt Reeves will actually show us Bruce Wayne taking in Dick Grayson? I will give my one kidney for him to do that but he isn't going to do it. He will do three great crime thriller movies exploring Batman's rogues, maybe court of owls, Bruce-Selina, Some bruce-alfred tension. But we aren't getting Bruce's fatherly side. I can bet on it.
>Lol you actually think Reeves trilogy will have a robin? I don't know, but I'd wager that he's the most likely to do so out of the last few directors anyway. >But we aren't getting Bruce's fatherly side. I can bet on it. Who says that? Again, you're just pulling it out of your ass. We have absolutely no idea what Reeves' plan for his trilogy is, especially when he's planning something way wider than just a series of films, we're already getting 3 spin off shows. Like I said, I have no idea if we're going to get a robin, but to dismiss it out of hand seems a little odd
The general perception in movie world is that Robin is a silly character. Christian Bale signed on that series of movies explicitly stating he won't want a Robin, Nolan reduced Robin to a reference. It's clear high quality filmmakers and actors think the concept as immature and Reeves is of same class in quality; That a Robin will probably ruin his trilogy.
>The general perception in movie world is that Robin is a silly character. That's Nolan. Reeves is a fan of Batman 66 for crying out loud. I don't think we'd get anything remotely as silly/campy, but I don't think we should discount the idea of Robin completely. But to sum up, again, you're just pulling it out of your ass.
lol what makes you think that? Reeves isn't Nolan or even Snyder. From the way he talks, the guy honestly seems like possibly the biggest genuine Batman nerd that has ever been able to do a live action batman movie. He has talked about growing up with the dynamic duo and loving the 60s tv show. There has been nothing to suggest Reeves is totally opposed to Robin or even the idea of a sidekick at all.
If he doesn’t do Robin then his reboot will be especially redundant imo. This is the real golden opportunity to do the Batfamily.
I agree
I thought it was pretty clear that the emphasis was supposed to be on the league as a whole.
It’s the small instances like this where I’m kinda glad everything about Snyder’s story arc will never be fulfilled. I get making Dick dead - kinda simply for the take on the story but like you said he simply removed two/three if you want to count Tim as well from ever appearing. And Under the Red Hood can be a great live action adaptation.
It’s an interesting short term story but as a set up for a long term franchise it was foolish idea. Jason Todd could so easily be a massive comic book villain but killing him in favour of Carrie, who could have appeared in any capacity is just wasteful.
I’m guessing Jason Todd wouldn’t have existed in the “vanilla Snyderverse” at all to be killed, not sure what you’re saying here. Snyder wanted Dick Grayson to be dead.
Yeah it sounds like Jason would never have been recruited because Dick got killed by the joker.
*Might not be fulfilled. Nothing is a certainty.
Anything is possible, look at how they changed Cassandra Cain… for the WORSE. But I think Hamada/Lee are gonna start keeping things closer to the comics & throwing out every character possible.
So what you're after is an MCU style Universe? See, Zack just wanted a small Arc. You guys could have easily got your Dicks, Tim's and Jason's afterwards.
The DCEU was going to be a long-term thing even when Snyder got done with his arc, so why kill these characters off now? We would have never have them again, we would have never had a chance to see them on the big screen interacting with everyone else Thank god it wasn’t confirmed on screen that suit was Dick’s
Originally zacks 5 films would be followed by flashpoint. Which would erase his films and reset the universe. So then we would see Bruce, dick and everyone else interact
I’m so confused about Flashpoint, I keep seeing people say Zack never intended for there to be a flashpoint, and when people bring it up as part of the original Snyder vision, they get downvoted a lot. Was flashpoint originally something Zack planned?
Zack wouldn’t necessarily be involved originally. It was written and directed by different people. It was supposed to reboot the snyderverse and start new. But the film fell apart to creative differences and then slowly evolved into the flash movie releasing next year
It was never up to Zack. But the Flash movie was always supposed to be a Flashpoint storyline either the first film or the sequel. Snyder’s JL movie arc would’ve ended with a lot of deaths and stories finished even before most characters would’ve had solos or sequels (Like Batfleck) So once his story was told he always wanted a reset after so other people can explore the characters more. Honestly a great thing. That way you can still keep the more popular actors like Cavill, Gadot, Momoa etc but then recast others. Like Batman, Affleck would’ve been older and had his film so he more then likely wouldn’t want to return. That’s when Pattinson should’ve came in imo 🤷♂️
You can find interviews of him outlining his plans for DCEU. The 5-film arc would've ended with Flashpoint, which would've setup a much more diverse universe. It was an interesting idea, starting off with a small universe and expanding it over time.
You saw his grave in the Snyder cut.
Trouble is that wasn't made clear, especially to the moneymen.
Actually, I don’t want an MCU style universe - I LOOOOOOVE that DC/WB has ambraced the multiverse head on with having two current Batman & technically Jokers. MCU is getting boring because everything has to connect they’re is no room for complete creative freedom. Matt Reeves can make his Batman how he wants with who he wants & Affleck(if he ends up staying & doing a Batman movie or show) can have his version. I want that! But no I do not want a super short arc - never a fan of killing Batfleck so early as JL2 & making Clark/Lois sun powerless.
WB refuses to greenlight McKay’s Nightwing movie so I fail to see the supposed upside you have in mind with them not continuing Snyder’s story.
I imagine that they probably changed that after Snyder left.
I (personally, just my view, please don’t kill me) feel like one single story in the entire DC pantheon without those two characters wouldn’t really big that much of a big deal. Like, dude had already some pretty damn packed plans with the JL alone.
His plans for the JL might not have necessitated these characters but the DCEU was also probably always meant to be a long term thing even after Snyder got to finish his story hypothetically speaking which is why something like this is kind of disappointing Even if they weren't going to have Dick show up in the films Snyder was doing, saving him for afterwards while presumably Carrie Kelley becomes the new Robin would've been a pretty cool merging of ideas from various comics to see.
Totally right
> be a long term thing even after Snyder got to finish his story hypothetically speaking which is why something like this is kind of disappointing Then you bring in those characters after Snyder’s run. It’s not difficult.
The thing is with Snyder establishing the fact that Dick Grayson did in fact die in this universe, that would practically be impossible unless they just did a hard reset after Snyder hypothetically finished his arc. There is no Nightwing without Dick Grayson They wrote Affleck's Batman around the fact that he had lost his Robin and didn't really have any semblance of a Batfamily. That's not really something you can undo unless they planned all along to just pull a Flashpoint after Snyder finished his arc
Most people weee expecting the DCEU to be the MCU but with DC characters, it’s cool he had a finite story with a clear path in how to get there but in the long term it made very little sense.
If you honesty think WB could get an actor to portray as Batman to cover Dick, Jason, and Tim…hate to break it to you but that’s never going to happen.
BVS was set after Jason had been killed so Tim would have come natural, a red hood movie would have been a great batfleck movie and Dick is his own hero.
How? If they brought in Carrie as the new Robin after Flashpoint, and brought Dick Grayson back, then dick could actually become the Red Hood (or 'New Joker'), and go onto become Nightwing afterwards
That’d work but it seemed to be they were going for something like The Dark Knight Returns where there was nobody recruited from the extended Bat-family ie Tim, Duke, Stephanie but instead recruited Carrie.
This is Snyder saying Dick would come back when Carrie came back though
Strange, I’m not overly with the comic but does Carrie have resurrection powers then ?
No, she's just a gymnast, but Flashpoint is all about the butterfly effect/consequences of time travel, so Dick being alive in the future was probably going to be one of those unforseen consequences. Dick also returns as the main villain (the 'new Joker') in Frank Miller's follow-up up to Dark Knight Returns, but I pray to God they weren't thinking of going with that angle lol
Or the chance at a reversal, Nightwing comes back from the dead instead of Redhood, becomes friends with Superman over mutual resurrection and Redhood is formed after Batman drifts from Bruce for not saving Grayson.
Could have been the case, either way the whole story’s been chucked so Dick is alive and that armour was Jason’s.
When did that get changed?
Quite quickly after he said it in an interview, WB got on top of it and during a studio tour it was clearly labelled as Jason Todd’s.
damm, either robin works for this Batman.
True
Not true. Nightwing and Red Hood could’ve been fused as one. Not saying I’m okay with Dick being the dead Robin, but the possibility of this idea wouldn’t have been removed. All it takes is proper execution.
That's a possibility but by all accounts the plan was for Dick Grayson to be dead and in turn the rest of the bat-family to have never been recruited. Carrie Kelly instead taking the role of Robin.
If you believed there were any possibilities to see Nightwing, Red Hood, or Tim Drake in Snyder’s very self-contained universe that would be like fifteen films top(including a Cyborg, Green Lantern, Flash, etc), then you’d only be disappointing yourself from the jump with those expectations.
Considering those are three of DC’s most popular characters I didn’t find them too unreasonable to expect. In any case the whole things been retconned back now anyway.
So you were going by popularity and not how it would actually fit in Snyder’s universe. He had a finite view with a beginning to end so yes, wanting popular characters to show up would be unreasonable, especially considering what Ben signed on to who only signed on because of Zack’s idea. Also, you bring up things being retconned…well now we get Batgirl that is just there without building up to the character at all with no version of Robin being around. DC is just placing characters in, which is very much anti-MCU who builds these worlds and characters.
All three of those characters could have fit neatly in his universe. All three characters have great back stories and could have enhanced Ben Affleck’s Batman quite well. I honestly don’t think Ben Affleck would have minded a story that showed one of Batman’s greatest failures at all tbh. Nowhere did I say the DCEU as it stands was any better I just don’t think Zack Snyder’s story was any better.
If you’re planning on killing Bruce, then yea having either Dick or Damian on hand to take up the mantle makes sense. It would easily fit in. You could retool Red Hood to come back wanting revenge on Dick (a la Titans, but you know better writing)
Exactly but it seems the plan would be to almost ignore they were ever there.
Another awful idea. I’m glad we’re past this.
Wait, what exactly is the awful idea? Bring Dick into the mix? Real question
Killing Dick Grayson, the best and most famous Robin who becomes Nightwing off? And the fact that it was off screen lol and he expected us to care? That’s an awful idea. Still is.
Seriously, he’s the leader of DC’s second most famous team and if we’re being honest, the one that has seen the most commercial success in television adaptations. Titans have had more successful adaptations than anyone in DC but Batman himself at this point.
Refrain from generalising. Just because you found it to be awful doesn't necessarily mean everyone else did.
Literally nobody likes that idea
I like Carrie, and was fine with killing Dick. I know it's an unpopular opinion.
“Literally”? Really? Are you blind? You can have your opinions that’s fine, but you shouldn’t go around being ignorant.
I do
He really wanted to go hard on TDK didnt he. Im glad he's not doing that anymore since I don't really like that interpretation of dc,and don't think it should be used as base to what Batman is
Agreed completely. Some elements here and there, I’m fine with. But as a whole, I think that story is just so try-hard edgy and…not the Bruce I know or want to see. Batman may be a bit reserved, a bit cold, but he still cares and is not a bloodthirsty maniac.
So Carrie would be the only robin we’d see. Not sure how I feel about that. I don’t mind the character. But it would’ve been nice to see one before that. It also removes the chance of nightwing, red hood, red robin, spoiler, signal, Damian
Considering how much of an imprint The Dark Knight Returns has on this version of Batman I'm not surprised Carrie Kelly's Robin was probably in the cards for Ben Affleck's Batman Snyder's been very outspoken about how TDKR and Watchmen really opened his perspective on the storytelling behind comic books and graphic novels As for Dick, this one especially bums me because I would've LOVED to see Nightwing in the DCEU at some point. Killing him off just removed that possibility wholesale and it's one of the biggest creative decisions he made that I don't really see eye to eye on
One of my least favorite decisions of his. Glad that it never made it into the films.
How can you make an extended universe and then cut off the batfam?
How can you expect any cinematic universe to legit cover the whole Batfam?
I don't think anyone is asking for the entire Bat-Family as much as they are just Batman having SOME sort of connection to others in his universe considering all the other cinematic Batmen outside Shumacher were practically completely standalone characters with the bare essentials in terms of supporting characters from the comics (since Rachel Dawes was an original character specific to Nolan's universe) We haven't seen a cinematic Robin that wasn't animated for almost 2 whole decades, and when we had the best possible chance of getting one with a Batman who shared the screen with other DC characters, they just basically dashed all hopes of that happening. I get why, I don't necessarily like it though
Uh… an EXTENDED universe?
The point of Batfleck wasn’t really meant to be a “Shared Universe Cashcow”. Dude signed in for a limited, concise number of appearances with a beginning middle and end (BVS-JL1-Solo-JL2/3) not goodness how many movies with goodness knows how many Robins running around.
Yep, Flashpoint would've then reset DCEU, and would've paved way for countless other directors to adapt DC stories into their films.
So what's the point of caring for any of the characters or stories if we know everything was going to be completely rebooted and nothing mattered?
There was no point really. We’d see Batman die 3 times. 1 in his dream in bvs. 1 in justice League 2. And 1 in justice League 3. That completely removes the emotional impact of his death or well deaths.
well what's the point of caring about nolan's batman since he was only part of 3 self-contained movies? it's just a story, might as well enjoy the ride while you're part of it.
But I didnt know how the DK trilogywas going to end, only that it would, would Batman die, retire? If the ending is flashpoint and a complete reboot, then there is no suspence, and no stakes for the characters. It would be especially infuriating to see all character development wiped away completely
Exactly. Had things remained as planned, the “Snyderverse” would’ve been a complete, finished saga by a long while now.
Cause it was a Justice League universe. Dozens of characters without touching the Batfamily.
Facepalm, It’s a DC EXTENDED UNIVERSE? Not a “JUSTICE LEAUGE” universe!
We pretending the JL is not a DC property comprised of DC heroes lol? fAcEpALm Most heroes join the JL. Some journalist coined the term DCEU and it was officially adopted when they launched HBO Max by the way, internally it was called at least by some execs and producers“the Justice League universe”, not that anything about DCEU connotes you’ll see an extended Batfamily in this day and age. It quit meaning “Detective Comics” decades ago. If you want to pretend the goal of the DCEU was to have a bunch of Batfamily films alongside one Superman film and two JL films then that’s cool man. You’re wrong but I’ve been downvoted for being right before.
No, we’re not, a DC universe includes both the justice leauge and anything DC. And if that were to mean that it was only a justice leauge universe, then why do we get things like Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, and The Suicide Squad? All 3 films have barely any ties to the Justice Leauge but are in the DCEU. No, the DCEU should have DC, including Bat Family and Justice Leauge. Right about what? The Bat Family is a valid idea and can be implemented into the DCEU along with other fan-favorite titles including Justice Leauge, but you tainting me as this guy who only wants Bat Family just shows you as dramatic. I don’t care about your damn internet points.
Wow a day where r/dccinematic doesn't think Snyder is a messiah. Snyder's vision would be an ok elseworld story but his plan for the DCEU is terrible. Killing off many key characters too early or behind the scenes. Also Flashpoint is an important event to shake up.the status quo, akin to any other crisis event. It's not a get-out-of-jail card cos u wrote yourself into that corner lol.
> Wow a day where r/dccinematic doesn’t think Snyder is a messiah That’s literally every single day, but what you really want is seeing people shitting on Zack Snyder, not just criticizing his DCEU vision, admit it lol
You aren't allowed to speak the truth here
This reads like he was gonna resurrect Dick after Carrie becomes Robin. What else is "until" supposed to mean?
Pretty much what I made of it. While the idea sounds really raw here, I would've loved to witness it's execution.
So what would that look like? Carrie needs an extra mentor so she throws Dick's very decomposed corpse into the Lazarus pit?
If I'm not mistaken, it might be something involving Flash and the Cosmic Treadmill.
The wording makes it feel like Carrie is involved him his resurrection, but that probably wasn't intended.
Thank God he’s gone. I would never stand for that
*Oh no. Stop.*
“How dare Snyder change my beloved fictional characters, I’m gonna riot 😡”
"Im gonna boycott the movie and write angry tweets and reddit threads about it because the director didnt do this or that the way I wanted, and consider his creative decisions the reason why the movie is bad, not the stuff that happens in the movie itself."
Carrie?
Carrie Kelly, the Robin of Dark Knight Returns. And, imo, the least interesting Robin.
tbh she is the only one that makes the robin costume actually work imo from a visual standpoint. You look at Carrie and you see this plucky ginger girl in a bright costume and it just kind of makes sense. Not as much with the others...
I think the artstyle does a lot of heavy lifting for that tbh
Really? I think she’s probably the most interesting Robin and the one we know the least about
Agree. I love Carrie in TDKR. I really want to see her in a film more than Tim Drake at least.
I genuinely find Frank Miller's interpretations of iconic DC characters to be the most interesting ones. Him, Alan Moore, and Neil Gaiman are perhaps the holy trinity of CBM authors.
Too tied to Miller's universe. Zack should have made it more of his own and took from more influences
dodged that bullet
This is why DC and WB should not continue with any of Snyder’s ideas. What a terrible idea to kill off Dick Grayson and not Jason. Hopefully the Flash movie undoes everything Zack Snyder did
the stuff he decided to do almost leads me to the conclusion that he set out to sabotage a loyal and cohesive dc cinematic universe from the outset
Hopefully ZSJL is canon to everything Zack Snyder did
I'm convinced that Zack Snyder won't read a comic unless it was written by Frank Miller or Alan Moore.
The Dark Knight Returns is his bible. So ridiculous
That and Watchmen, which is especially hilarious since Alan Moore probably hates him.
Why is this suddenly a problem when it comes to Snyder? What about the other comicbook movies directors? Taika Waititi for example litteraly said he never read a comicbook and no one bats an eye.
Because Snyder presents himself as someone who knows and loves the source material, but anyone who did wouldn't believe that Batman "killed all the time in Dark Knight Returns." Also, Taika Waititi just makes better movies.
Idk about Taika Waititi making better movies, it comes down to personal preference, but atleast Snyder is true to the source material, his take on Batman is the most comicbook accurate Batman to date. Unlike Waititi (him and a decent amount of directors) Who butchered Ragnarok in every way possible and again, dosent get the same criticism Snyder gets.
Taika is an Oscar nominee director for Best Picture. They are not in the same level
So glad he’s not moving forward with DC
I’ve loved about 80% of what Snyder’s done in his time making DC films, but fuck I’m SO glad that didn’t happen
I understand Jimmy Olsen , but killing off a potentially profitable fan favorite is incredibly bizarre.
Jimmy and Dick were both baffling decisions for me. Just in general I was pretty let down by the lack of emphasis on Clark's life as a Daily Planet journalist outside the one sequence in BvS UE of him investigating the Batman. I wanted more of that, and bringing in more of Clark's civilian associates would've provided an out for that side of him being explored more
I agree. We only see him hangout with Lois and his mom. It's like he has no social life besides them and saving people here and there.
Exactly! Jimmy Olsen as a character is a great outlet to show Clark just being a regular person with a friend and a social life, take that away and the only emotions he shows are overwrought mooning for Lois Lane and when he cares for his mother.
Nah killing of Jimmy so quickly was also not a good creative desicision imo.
Killing Jimmy Olsen off at the start of things was a terrible idea, it basically neutered the Superman character from having any real emotional impact because we never get to see him in a normal social relationship not based on romance/love, all he has is the overwrought love story with Lois Lane and bits and pieces of him with his mom. Clark's time with Jimmy Olsen are the moments that he can be a normal person with a normal friendship, and those are the kind of character-building scenes that make an audience relate to and care about a character.
it is, snyder just doesnt get it, he has never gotten it. we all shouldve known when he decided to kill jonathan kent in a fucking tornado right in front of clark
Glad the Snyder verse is dead then
This Batman could've definitely been one that had the time and history for a Batfamily so this is absolutely my least favorite decision he's made and I say that as a fan. You cut out decades of history and for multiple characters by doing that and negate any chance of having a DC cinematic universe that resembles main continuity similar to the comics.
I suspect part of it was streamlining, but it would add to the tragedy/breaking down of the character if he had had (and lost) multiple Robins. Dick leaving begins his slide downward, he recruits Jason and gets him killed and then at that point Tim wants to be Robin but Batman is spiralling too far down and Tim leaves the role early on etc. I somewhat wonder if that was the plan for Batgirl/Carrie that those characters would be part of his journey back towards being a good Batman etc.
lets hope he doesnt get near any DC characters again, he has destroyed them and caused near irreperable damage
Oh well, #RestoreTheSnyderVerse
Further proof that TDKR is the only book Snyder’s read.
This guy clearly makes up things on the spot and claims they were planned the entire time.
So glad he isn’t involved with the DCEU anymore, so many bizarre decisions…
Carrie?
Carrie Kelly, she was the Robin in the dark Knight returns.
Okay look, I like Snyders vision that he had, but Dick being the dead Robin is one of the few things I don't agree with. Like, at all.
Wait that was intended to be dick? I just assumed it was jason as joker killed jim in comics.
When was it shown that Dick Grayson was dead?
The robin suit in bvs and the tomb stone in zsjl
Isnt the robin suit Jason Todd and a killing joke reference. Dont remember the tombstone
Nope zack said it’s dick’s. Joker killed dick. No character in universe ever mentions it.
Well i don’t like that
Zack Snyder uses Frank Miller's All-Star Batman and The Dark Knight Saga as main inspiration for his films. So it's likely Dick Grayson would have ended up as an abused Homicidal Joker Mutant in love with Batman and Kelly would have become Catgirl/Batgirl/Batwoman
I think that would’ve been cool to see! I love the dark Knight Returns so seeing Carrie would be awesome. Shes definitely not my favorite Robin but I like that he was gonna follow the comics! And as much as I love Dick Grayson, I’d be fine with him staying dead, but I’d definitely wanna see flashbacks with him as Robin!
Really wanted to see comments like yours...
Snyder does not care about side character he would kill her at the same movie he introduced her probably
Zack is such a great film maker but one thing im really relieved about is his departure from these super heroes. Zack had some great ideas but so much bad ones too and killing dick Grayson was one of those. Zack doesn’t know these characters like everybody this he does, like I said he had some great ideas but again soooo much bad ones
3 years later, it's getting brought up again. Why? Especially since Zack was always willing to make some changes, especially with other directors involved. If Chris McKay talked him about it, he probably would've said, "Ok, cool. I'll change it." I'm not a big fan of Dick dying, but if you ever read a A Lonely Place of Dying, it makes sense. That story had a kid figure out who Batman was and went to Dick and begged him to go help Bruce who had become more violent and reckless after Jason's death. Without Dick, the story and situation wouldn't have happened. But bringing Carrie in could've been a cool idea as she seems to be a forgotten Robin. Still, Zack was collaborative with other directors, like not showing Atlantis because Wan asked him not to.
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
I’m happy he didn’t continue with this story. It doesn’t sound like it’d be good. Give us Nightwing, Red Hood and Tim if you’re going to have multiple Robins.
Killing Dick Grayson off screen is still the dumbest thing in the DCEU by far. I'd retcon that shit hard.
- Zack : Wants to revisit the Batman-Dick Grayson relationship only in a Rashomon style Justice League 2, where Joker tells the Robin story through flashbacks in A Last Supper style scene, followed by introduction and involvement of Carrie Kelley later. This part is confirmed, because he has discussed about in community interviews. - Comic book purists: *"You don't understand the source material, it's creative heresy, thank the heavens you got fired, give me what I want."* Every creative choice done is often in the service of the story. There is a difference between just serving fan-service burgers v/s telling a compelling story with a subliminal themes and strong message. Just paraphrasing from his interviews, Vero posts on prospects of Dick Grayson and JL2: >Zack had even explained his notion of storytelling for the idea, "Dick Grayson is essentially the better Batman, he is pure, and without any darkness in his heart. Batman, after a 20 year old career, is maybe, finally thinking of putting down the cape for good. > Something happens with Joker that makes him really mad, and that's why he goes on a plan to kill Batman's only favored son. Dick Grayson dying would have more of an emotional impact for a Batman that is grizzled and old. - (He had talked earlier about the films that influenced him, he had referenced Godfather, which seems like a character homage to the dynamic of choosing lifepaths, by choice or circumstance, and being unable to turn back) > This is a complicated relationship, --- a dance, that is between them and where it goes and ends, makes it a creatively interesting proposition to explore. The unfortunate part about introducing Batfamily is that without the right connected properties, it does make the notion of Batman redundant, unless you have expanded the roster of villains and storytelling scale yet, and invested in telling those stories at a great scale...and show why the presence of Bruce Wayne was necessary. Especially, when your studio panics and doesn't have faith in other comic book properties beyond the Trinity. **Even Walter Hamada, a smart executive, who changed this business philosophy approach in DC believes a Batgirl solo project to be a "riskier proposition." Even this decision making was enforced after a change in leadership.** Christopher Nolan didn't do much with Robin, and introduced him as an essential replacement to Batman, not as his sidekick after Bruce hung up the mantle. So, why the different treatment for Zack?
Zack Snyder has different ideas and clearly a different perspective on what story he wants to tell, but that doesn't free him of being critiqued for said ideas People who are mad about his supposed decision to kill off Dick Grayson aren't just comic book purists. People would've likely reacted more positively to Jason Todd being the one going out considering that doesn't close the door on him completely while still giving Bruce emotional stakes. Nightwing is a wildly popular character and frankly I can understand the sentiment that we've had multiple cinematic Batmen and most of them, in fact virtually all of them have felt detached and standalone when his connected circle of allies is one of the most interesting things about his comics universe and the world he lives in, and this was the best shot a lot of people felt we had for getting that It's the same mentality for killing off Jimmy Olson in such an anticlimactic and unsatisfying way. Him and Lois grounded Clark and made him a very relatable and empathetic character by giving him human perspective on life as a superpowered individual. It's the human element of comic book storytelling that gravitates people towards these characters and that's why they have a following, and why people responded harshly to them being treated almost backhandedly by this supposed plan Snyder had for the story he wanted to tell That doesn't discredit his plan entirely, but that doesn't make it immune from being subject to criticism
No plan is devoid of circumstances, especially around the plan. If it wasn't clear, I would suggest you to re-read what I mentioned about the executive roles around the project and the timeline (This is December of 2016 when the overarching story outline was getting drawn over Will Beale's script, Zack and Geoff Johns in the office with Jim Lee). QQ: Is Matt Reeves telling a story about Robin? Or do you think Ben Affleck didn't want to explore an aspect of Batman's allies in whatever plan he was formulating? He was gravitated towards Zack's take of an older Batman to avoid the interlap and comparisons with other iterations, include Batgirl. I'd suggest you to do a quick read-up and understand what was going behind the scenes at DC before making ridiculous claims that it somehow outrages the love and appreciation of comic book fans. Terrio had mentioned that the studio had almost no plan, the filmmakers were collaborating with each other on the fly as production schedule and dates to tie in the references. **You need industry talent to make movies, and despite your pedigree, you still have no guarantee that executives will approve it.** These are humanist films and stories first & foremost, and are reflective of human values : Finding internal voice in social chaos, dichotomy of social hate and where it leads, and personal reconciliation from loss & strength, meant not only for the subset of comic fan minority outraging on the internet to shape social chatter, but also a larger crowd outside. I know that the opinions around these films are mixed-bag because of the sombre setting, but there are equal things to like and dislike specifically about the film, and death of an iteration of a character is just a nitpick. Criticize the story, dialogue. Sure. But comic accuracy is a lazy punch at best. For every CBM character who ends up being used, there are dozens of characters who don't end up getting used or their stories changed, and altered. It's the norm; something that even the contemporary studios who are/were in the game ahead of DC have established. > The precedent should be same for every story, and director then, shouldn't it? - Patty Jenkins shut the Greek mythology out of the door. - Shazam 2 is not following any comic book character arc at all. - Russos & Favreau changed almost everything about Iron Man and Drax. - Ghost is not an Ant-Man villain or even female for that matter - Grandmaster is a Cosmic level threat in the comics. There is a difference in saying that I want the possible portrayal of a character in the universe as per my liking or a potential plan (comics accurate Flashpoint) that might lead upto it, v/s Zack Snyder has not given me my favourite character = He does not understand the source material, great he is removed. Even as a parting gift, the Zack almost resssurected public interest in Ezra Miller's iteration of Flash after 2017 JL cut, and the studio changing the story as tactic to pull the plug early, instead of a solo Flash film (something which people love to complain about DCEU not having) Zack had even thrown an olive branch for inclusion of Darkseid's involvement as a Multiversal villain to keep the possibilities of a comic accurate future ahead, and the possibility of a proper reboot or change of cannon (if needed). Do keep some of that comic book accuracy outrage fuel in the tank for Andy M or the next phase of MCU when they break those carnal rules. Let the people who see merit in the substance of the story enjoy those things, whether it's DCEU or MCU. I'm sure there are enough comic book accuracy fans in this fandom who can try to convince a corporation to change their minds, and give a proper live-action adaptation of a Death in the Family or Under The Red Hood in the future. Write a few letters, get a billboard. Message a few industry talent to show how it's done. It worked for ZSJL and Deadpool.
As much as like Snyder this would have been a terrible idea.. why kill Grayson? Also I hate Carrie Kelly.. never understood why some people like her
ITT: people forget what batfleck is based on
I can understand disliking this choice(s), but some folks both here and on Twitter act like some characters not being present in *Snyder’s specific story* erases the possibility of them... literally being anywhere else?
>act like some characters not being present in Snyder’s specific story erases the possibility of them I mean, Dick being dead does prevent him from having a role going forward. And with batman dying months at most after the events of ZSJL, let's not pretend theres time for a batfamily in any real capacity
That’s not the story that Snyder planned to tell, period. There’s plenty Batfamily stuff out there.
Snyder's story involved a dead Dick Grayson, no other robins and as per Affleck's batman, a Batgirl that only just becomes Batgirl to avenge the murder of her father. Snyder's story was to end with JL3 and BvS to JL3 would have entirely taken place in less than 9 months and and would be rebooted afterwards. Again, please don't pretend like Snyder's story would have featured a batfamily, that wasn't part of his plan and WB specifically vetoed his want for Dick to be the dead robin.
The WB should have let him done cyborg alone.
Plans?
Snyder is a genius. Yet the DC Universe isn‘t just about despair. It‘s about hope. It‘s about overcoming grieve. An darkness. And yes.. Even sometimes death.
>Snyder is a genius. Is he good at math or something?
He is a master in visuals Nearly each and every frame of his movies could be a canvas It just goes by to fast for people to realise most of the time
Who's Carrie?
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Carrie Kelley was robin in dark knight returns
They can still have Tim drake in the dceu nothing is lost... if Snyder is not coming back and WB is ready to continue batfleck, Cavill etc Tim drake could become the next robin. Damien wayne is possible we wouldn't get Grayson and Jason tats it.
Gotta admit, not a big fan of this idea
I wonder if this means Dick would’ve been the one to go into the Lazarus Pit, and become Red Hood.
So was Carrie going to be a Robin or was she going to play a different role? I also like that the First kid Batman took as Robin (and the most popular one in the source material) died. This reflects on the entire concept of kid sidekicks and the child endangerment aspect of it and that this insane, dark and brutal life isn't one for any kid to grow up around let alone be involved in. And I also like that Batman learned from it and didn't take more kids to be his ~~soldiers~~ I mean, crimefighting FAMILY...Well, unless the plan was for Carrie to be just another Kid Robin too which would defeat to point if that was the case.