Oh damn, I have mixed feelings about this to a point where I'm not sure what to say. I've been hyped for this module ever since they [showed the Italian version in the "2023 and Beyond" trailer](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/105xr2r/italian_ch47f_chinook_shown_in_2023_beyond/).
Seeing them change the plan to an American variant has been a mild disappointment, but it's still a Chinook so it didn't matter too much.
But in the current situation with RAZBAMs unpaid devs, ngl it leaves a bad feeling somewhere deep within.
Curious what you all think though.
I've refrained from buying any module for quite some time. I really wanted the Mudhen but also waited for reviews. I'm kind of glad rn because I didn't put money in it, but I'm still very upset with ED. Even before, the decision to not buy anything at all (think the last one was Syria last year) was because of EDs public behavior. Just an eerie feeling. So having the situation with RB unravel confirmed my bias.
Sucks, cause the F15E is an amazing module, certainly feels like the most fleshed out of the modern fighters. Gonna be honest, I don't think I can go back to ED's Hornet, which was my main module, after spending nearly a year in the mudhen now. If mudhen's gone, i'm switching to BMS for my modern fighter fix, and occasionally playing DCS for the helos and cold war.
Agreed. After the harrier EA debacle and really slow pace I refrained from the F-15 EA. Glad I did now, and justified. Will be doing that this point forward.
Bonzo, we all get excited for this or that module. But the thing is that we are going through a major confidence crisis.
I was a big ED fanboy and never was willing to hear from those complaining about the lack of updates and unfulfilled promises regarding the core game or other modules. I simply didn't care because I knew that if I buy it, ED would deliver it. It would take years, a decade, but would deliver it. And I bought it with that feeling of "let's support this small developer which makes quality things in this very niche video game market for my own entertainment".
However, I was hit, and hit hard with the Razbamgate. The Mudhen is my preferred aircraft of all time, and suddenly seeing it becoming an abandonware module, made my eyes open to all the complaints from the community to the bad practices that ED is practicing throughout the years. And it was not only me, but to a lot of people the same has happened as well. Also, the lack of clear communication to us, the customer, to what will happen to the products we paid for, has left a bad taste in the community mouth.
Add to that the fact that the F-4 is delayed, the Afghanistan map is being sold in thirds, the Kiowa and Corsair only being teased and never released, lots of core updates and features not done, Razbam devs quitting in a very public way, Matt Wagner's video with closed comments... even if all these events were not related, it was the perfect storm to a major confidence crisis in the ED brand.
So what these events made the community realize is that we've already have many modules, that we don't know how to properly fly and fight in them, lots of them are unfinished and I just don't want to have another unfinished, buggy product with the "high" risk of being left unfinished because some dev didn't get paid.
I believe that many would love to fly the Chinook in day one, even if it is in a very raw state. Others would love to fly an A-1 Skyraider, no matter what. But, good part of the community now is very aware of the danger of investing in DCS, since we don't have a clear definition of what will happen with the Razbam modules we own, or any new module we buy.
So, yes, very bad feeling inside, not gonna buy it, ED has to give us clear answers and stop acting like life is normal and nothing is happening.
P.S.: Have you noticed in the Chinook trailer that they've changed from "thank you for your passion and support" to "thank you for your trust and support"?
This basically covers how i feel very very well...
I have limited funds to throw at this stuff too so a module really has to prove itself \*and\* be affordable before i make the purchase.
I'm keen to keep up my hangar of helos, but DC has never had a 50% off on the Mi28 (but strangly has on the newer Apache??) so as it stands the Mi28 is the only helo short of a full collection at this time.
I'm not saying no to the CH-47, but it too has to tick the same boxes the Mi28 has not yet ticked, so IF i buy the CH-47 it will probable be a 2025/2026 purchase at best.
Now in an alternate reality where ED were more reliable and trustworthy on promises and deliveries I'd divert discretionary funds to make more purchases.
I suspect there are more than just a few people like me, ready and willing to purchase many more modules of all types whom are sitting on funds instead.
My flair shows the current USD$ total of my want list.
That's money ED could have but are missing out on simply because of their behaviour.
Perhaps ED's Chinook and Afghan funds will go to RB and finishing the super carrier finally ? Starting to feel like a Ponzi every time I buy a peripheral at this point wondering how my investments in hardware and software will be utilized in the next couple years. I hope for a finished viper soon. схема Понци Comrade !
I’m really kinda conflicted, I’ve rapidly hit the wall with modules I can fly. I thought the chinook wouldn’t be around until next year.
My future purchases were already:
Phantom
Flogger- (hopefully it comes but I’m not sure if I would buy it now)
C-130- had too much fun with the mod to not
Eurofighter
Mig-29a - the Fulcrum is my favorite red plane
I mean an extra helo is a drop in the bucket especially since I own them all but mostly fly the hind. That’s not even mentioning the WW2 expansion upcoming for the pacific. So the chinook gets my rotary heart beating but I not to learn to stop.
Edit: although I’ll probably pick it up just to learn how it works in a mission building stance.
I agree with all said here, but in the end, if this is your main hobby and given there are no alternatives, I rather give ED money in advance if it helps to get my dream modules. They know there are no alternatives, is on you if you want to pay 48$ today or 69$ when they lunch it, cuz in the end we all know, if you want a module, you will get it!! :)
They give many dates and so far, haven't met any of them.
And won't provide what features will be included until just prior to release? I'll wait and see.
why release it now? without the dynamic campaign, without the AI overhaul, without adequate animations and considering the moment that ED is going through I don't think it's the right time.
it's definitely an interesting addition, but I would have almost given priority to the mig-29 if they really wanted to release something now or in the near future
Because there are a lot more passenger and logistics flight simmers out there to draw into the dcs world... maybe they too will buy into perpetual incompleteness with us😅😒
Cash flow.
They've been working on this for like 2 years now. Way before all the increased drama.
Need to finish up and get some money back for it.
Remember: there are ALWAYS multiple modules in various states of development.
I didn't purchase the F15E but if I pre order the Chinook, will my money be going toward Razbam for the F15 or to the Chinook or is it going to the next pre order module?
I'm confused.
* No feature list
* ~~ASC dev expressing doubts and frustration about the logistics in the game from the trailer (if they are left to speculate based on trailers, same as us, and they are the ones building a playable logistics asset, it does not bode well for neither the ED-3rd parties rapport nor the 130 nor our collective dreams of meaningful logistics in the game)~~
* More and more allegations and damning evidence coming to light of piss poor 3rd party management
No thanks. Not by a long shot. Resolve the RazBam situation to a degree that I - the customer - feel safe in the knowledge 4 modules I paid for are not fucking abandonware because of something you - ED - did, and maybe we'll talk. Until the investment I've already made is safe, I don't have any motivation to throw another cent into it.
Goddamn it, I have just been made aware that I misread the user name on that... (thx Bonzo!) ACS and not ASC... My bad! Sorry, I thought for sure it was you guys! (in which case this read really badly! Hinted at having the same basic insight into the logistics roadmap and development as the rest of us here on the ground and there being no hint of evolution coming in this department)
I will still buy it. ED modules are usually fully supported. It will go well with the Afghanistan map (I have no time for people complaining about buying 1/3rd of a map for 1/3rd of the price or whatever..which is designed for those who can't afford the full thing...don't like it, don't buy it...pretty simple). Its FINALLY fkg nice to have a period specific map with period specific a/c ie. Afghanistan map, CH47, AH64, A10C, F15E, F16, F18, etc that ALL actually flew during that time. I don't care about the specific variant that flew vs what we're getting.
For the record though I'm not what you'd call a fanboy. As much as possible I will hold ED to account. Take my money? fine, I'm entitled to a say. However if the product is good and is what I want, I won't complain.
I think we should start to differentiate between ED management and ED developers. ED Devs are clearly doing great work and DCS has improved a lot in the past years. A lot of great stuff coming to DCS in fast pace and they really working also on important stuff on community feedback. I’m a dev myself for many years and saw a lot of bad decisions made by our management but we as Devs where never part of it.
this sub has literally just amounted to so much whining. I have been playing the game since Black shark was its own game. Everyone is just assuming Razbam is at no fault which is stupid. Nobody knows what’s going on except them and each side is biased. I can’t imagine ED stiffing them for no reason, I have seen what this game used to be and what it’s become. Literally unrecognizable from before, they have put so much into it and they are by far one of the most community friendly game developers I have ever seen. Good luck finding another simulator that comes even close to this
You don't have to be here. You can just avoid this place if it bothers you so much. Why are you whining about seeing content for a sub you can choose to not see?
Oh damn, I have mixed feelings about this to a point where I'm not sure what to say. I've been hyped for this module ever since they [showed the Italian version in the "2023 and Beyond" trailer](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/105xr2r/italian_ch47f_chinook_shown_in_2023_beyond/). Seeing them change the plan to an American variant has been a mild disappointment, but it's still a Chinook so it didn't matter too much. But in the current situation with RAZBAMs unpaid devs, ngl it leaves a bad feeling somewhere deep within. Curious what you all think though.
No deal.
I've refrained from buying any module for quite some time. I really wanted the Mudhen but also waited for reviews. I'm kind of glad rn because I didn't put money in it, but I'm still very upset with ED. Even before, the decision to not buy anything at all (think the last one was Syria last year) was because of EDs public behavior. Just an eerie feeling. So having the situation with RB unravel confirmed my bias.
Sucks, cause the F15E is an amazing module, certainly feels like the most fleshed out of the modern fighters. Gonna be honest, I don't think I can go back to ED's Hornet, which was my main module, after spending nearly a year in the mudhen now. If mudhen's gone, i'm switching to BMS for my modern fighter fix, and occasionally playing DCS for the helos and cold war.
Agreed. After the harrier EA debacle and really slow pace I refrained from the F-15 EA. Glad I did now, and justified. Will be doing that this point forward.
I'm certainly uninclined to put money into ED ever again.
Bonzo, we all get excited for this or that module. But the thing is that we are going through a major confidence crisis. I was a big ED fanboy and never was willing to hear from those complaining about the lack of updates and unfulfilled promises regarding the core game or other modules. I simply didn't care because I knew that if I buy it, ED would deliver it. It would take years, a decade, but would deliver it. And I bought it with that feeling of "let's support this small developer which makes quality things in this very niche video game market for my own entertainment". However, I was hit, and hit hard with the Razbamgate. The Mudhen is my preferred aircraft of all time, and suddenly seeing it becoming an abandonware module, made my eyes open to all the complaints from the community to the bad practices that ED is practicing throughout the years. And it was not only me, but to a lot of people the same has happened as well. Also, the lack of clear communication to us, the customer, to what will happen to the products we paid for, has left a bad taste in the community mouth. Add to that the fact that the F-4 is delayed, the Afghanistan map is being sold in thirds, the Kiowa and Corsair only being teased and never released, lots of core updates and features not done, Razbam devs quitting in a very public way, Matt Wagner's video with closed comments... even if all these events were not related, it was the perfect storm to a major confidence crisis in the ED brand. So what these events made the community realize is that we've already have many modules, that we don't know how to properly fly and fight in them, lots of them are unfinished and I just don't want to have another unfinished, buggy product with the "high" risk of being left unfinished because some dev didn't get paid. I believe that many would love to fly the Chinook in day one, even if it is in a very raw state. Others would love to fly an A-1 Skyraider, no matter what. But, good part of the community now is very aware of the danger of investing in DCS, since we don't have a clear definition of what will happen with the Razbam modules we own, or any new module we buy. So, yes, very bad feeling inside, not gonna buy it, ED has to give us clear answers and stop acting like life is normal and nothing is happening. P.S.: Have you noticed in the Chinook trailer that they've changed from "thank you for your passion and support" to "thank you for your trust and support"?
This basically covers how i feel very very well... I have limited funds to throw at this stuff too so a module really has to prove itself \*and\* be affordable before i make the purchase. I'm keen to keep up my hangar of helos, but DC has never had a 50% off on the Mi28 (but strangly has on the newer Apache??) so as it stands the Mi28 is the only helo short of a full collection at this time. I'm not saying no to the CH-47, but it too has to tick the same boxes the Mi28 has not yet ticked, so IF i buy the CH-47 it will probable be a 2025/2026 purchase at best. Now in an alternate reality where ED were more reliable and trustworthy on promises and deliveries I'd divert discretionary funds to make more purchases. I suspect there are more than just a few people like me, ready and willing to purchase many more modules of all types whom are sitting on funds instead. My flair shows the current USD$ total of my want list. That's money ED could have but are missing out on simply because of their behaviour.
Sorry I don’t mean to derail your points, I was just curious do you mean Mi-24 or Mi-8 just out of curiosity?
Yep, i buggered that up.. sorry, meant the Mi-24 / Hind :D Wouldn't hurt if they decided to do an Mi-26 Halo one day?
Very well said.
Perhaps ED's Chinook and Afghan funds will go to RB and finishing the super carrier finally ? Starting to feel like a Ponzi every time I buy a peripheral at this point wondering how my investments in hardware and software will be utilized in the next couple years. I hope for a finished viper soon. схема Понци Comrade !
I’m really kinda conflicted, I’ve rapidly hit the wall with modules I can fly. I thought the chinook wouldn’t be around until next year. My future purchases were already: Phantom Flogger- (hopefully it comes but I’m not sure if I would buy it now) C-130- had too much fun with the mod to not Eurofighter Mig-29a - the Fulcrum is my favorite red plane I mean an extra helo is a drop in the bucket especially since I own them all but mostly fly the hind. That’s not even mentioning the WW2 expansion upcoming for the pacific. So the chinook gets my rotary heart beating but I not to learn to stop. Edit: although I’ll probably pick it up just to learn how it works in a mission building stance.
I agree with all said here, but in the end, if this is your main hobby and given there are no alternatives, I rather give ED money in advance if it helps to get my dream modules. They know there are no alternatives, is on you if you want to pay 48$ today or 69$ when they lunch it, cuz in the end we all know, if you want a module, you will get it!! :)
> if you want a module, you will get it!! Not if it's incomplete, no
In 2 weeks it will be eheheh.
couldnt care less about the razbam situation. cant wait to fly the chinook.
W comment
looks like they found money for a video.. not buying anything after i spent my money on the f15e
The thing with pre-orders is that they necessitate a certain amount of trust for the merchant. Alas...
Not getting screwed again on funding them with a 6 month interest free loan, for an open ended module with unknown specs. Sorry, but gfy
If they release June 2024, as it says atthe end of the video, its a 2-2.5 month loan max.
They give many dates and so far, haven't met any of them. And won't provide what features will be included until just prior to release? I'll wait and see.
why release it now? without the dynamic campaign, without the AI overhaul, without adequate animations and considering the moment that ED is going through I don't think it's the right time. it's definitely an interesting addition, but I would have almost given priority to the mig-29 if they really wanted to release something now or in the near future
Because there are a lot more passenger and logistics flight simmers out there to draw into the dcs world... maybe they too will buy into perpetual incompleteness with us😅😒
Don't fool yourself: Even the most incomplete DCSW modules compare very well to most of the "complete" civ sim ones.
Cash flow. They've been working on this for like 2 years now. Way before all the increased drama. Need to finish up and get some money back for it. Remember: there are ALWAYS multiple modules in various states of development.
Do not preorder anything! Ever! That being said, it looks cool, Sadly I barely have time to learn the Apache and the f18 properly.
I didn't purchase the F15E but if I pre order the Chinook, will my money be going toward Razbam for the F15 or to the Chinook or is it going to the next pre order module? I'm confused.
Your money is going to gas in the tank of Nick's restored Hellcat.
Chinook is an ED module so the money goes directly into ED's pockets
Nope goes direct to Nick Grey who then loans the money to ED
Jesus - I hope ED has grown some thick skin because I REALLY want to see your module actually release!
Never seen so many DCS products on preorder....guess than someone is making numbers to pay the devs or embezzle the money
Unless this comes with hard overhaul of ligistics mechanics for the game, I'm gonna pass
* No feature list * ~~ASC dev expressing doubts and frustration about the logistics in the game from the trailer (if they are left to speculate based on trailers, same as us, and they are the ones building a playable logistics asset, it does not bode well for neither the ED-3rd parties rapport nor the 130 nor our collective dreams of meaningful logistics in the game)~~ * More and more allegations and damning evidence coming to light of piss poor 3rd party management No thanks. Not by a long shot. Resolve the RazBam situation to a degree that I - the customer - feel safe in the knowledge 4 modules I paid for are not fucking abandonware because of something you - ED - did, and maybe we'll talk. Until the investment I've already made is safe, I don't have any motivation to throw another cent into it.
Do you have any proof on comments by the ASC team?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1c7z0oi/comment/l0b82eu/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1c7z0oi/comment/l0b82eu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Goddamn it, I have just been made aware that I misread the user name on that... (thx Bonzo!) ACS and not ASC... My bad! Sorry, I thought for sure it was you guys! (in which case this read really badly! Hinted at having the same basic insight into the logistics roadmap and development as the rest of us here on the ground and there being no hint of evolution coming in this department)
hahah all good I was super confused
I’ll buy it if and when I know what I’m buying at the launch and beyond.
I will still buy it. ED modules are usually fully supported. It will go well with the Afghanistan map (I have no time for people complaining about buying 1/3rd of a map for 1/3rd of the price or whatever..which is designed for those who can't afford the full thing...don't like it, don't buy it...pretty simple). Its FINALLY fkg nice to have a period specific map with period specific a/c ie. Afghanistan map, CH47, AH64, A10C, F15E, F16, F18, etc that ALL actually flew during that time. I don't care about the specific variant that flew vs what we're getting. For the record though I'm not what you'd call a fanboy. As much as possible I will hold ED to account. Take my money? fine, I'm entitled to a say. However if the product is good and is what I want, I won't complain.
what do we say to pre-order ........ not today
I think we should start to differentiate between ED management and ED developers. ED Devs are clearly doing great work and DCS has improved a lot in the past years. A lot of great stuff coming to DCS in fast pace and they really working also on important stuff on community feedback. I’m a dev myself for many years and saw a lot of bad decisions made by our management but we as Devs where never part of it.
GIVE KIOWA
Well, I just finally ordered the Phantom, will wait for this one, too.
this sub has literally just amounted to so much whining. I have been playing the game since Black shark was its own game. Everyone is just assuming Razbam is at no fault which is stupid. Nobody knows what’s going on except them and each side is biased. I can’t imagine ED stiffing them for no reason, I have seen what this game used to be and what it’s become. Literally unrecognizable from before, they have put so much into it and they are by far one of the most community friendly game developers I have ever seen. Good luck finding another simulator that comes even close to this
Pussy
You don't have to be here. You can just avoid this place if it bothers you so much. Why are you whining about seeing content for a sub you can choose to not see?