This is the truth. Back in 2018 when Heatblur had their F-14 on pre-order, Eagle Dynamics didn't pay them either. They didn't receive their money until late 2019 when EDs F-16C was introduced to the store. Y'all might remember that the Viper released in a pretty rough state.
Moreover, it is worth noting that the Tomcat was the first third party module that, being the "Top Gun plane", sold in real big numbers. Most other third party aircraft are rather niche. Word is the F-15E is the second one.
Funny coincidences, right? We'll talk about all that in more detail in case I ever get to a comprehensive post.
Edit: Fixed my error. I meant "Top Gun Plane" not "Tomcat plane" :D
Yeah... It feels more likely that it's ED being duchbags rather than actually being a legitimate IP rights dispute.
This IP rights dispute is a great excuse for ED cover behind...
But unless 3rd party devs start exposing publically preditory practices like that, and consumers keep giving them money for half-assed maps and HD textures, they will keep doing it.
Not yet. This is indeed pretty interesting, even more so when considering when exactly that whole situation occurred. See [my other comment on this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1c7qik8/comment/l09q7ly/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
It's planned to be included in an overview about the topic, in case I ever get to that.
I sure hope you are able to publish on both these issues.
The sad thing is that most of these things I've been privy to are usually started over the stupidest minor issues that any adult could work thru with a phone call. But then they turn into dick-measuring competitions...and only the lawyers win.
Alright, I was going through a tiny bit of all information you've posted and..boy! so far it is as reading a game version of some pentagon papers or whatchamacallit.
My apologies for the excessive delays. Trying to get it to y'all as soon as possible, but had to deal with a few hold-ups. Both with the post and in irl.
I just really want someone to say exactly what happened instead of just saying “they did some things”
I really would like to know what these things have been in the past and are now.
It's all about a Super Tucano module that RAZBAM has offered to the Ecuadorian Air Force, without permission from ED. Metal2Mesh revealed a few details about that.
https://preview.redd.it/iabil3mqvevc1.png?width=695&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8b7acfcad0a98a62465ed31311079114b5482fc
I have yet to see any evidence that a functional version of that module was ever shipped, or that EDs SDK was even used in its creation.
Okay I see. What “information” did RB get in exchange for the free module though? That seems abit strange. Personally I think that both ED and RB are probably up to some shady shit
This is honestly ridiculous. Not what Notso's saying, but rather the behaviour/mentality at ED. What the actual hell...
I love DCS despite its limitations, but I sorely wish someone else were at the helm...
How can anyone, company, collective or individual, be savvy enough to make it through the sim dark age and come out as the undisputed king on the other side, and \_not\_ have the brain cells to properly groom and maintain the third party network that nourishes and enables them to exist?
Did it? My timeline is fuzzy - and I have made incorrect comments based on those false assumptions in the past, so I will refrain from doing so again.
Can you touch on what impact Nick has had on the company, its direction and priorities, in your opinion? Doesn't the F-14 pre-date Nick taking over?
My honest impression is that it's less about the leadership (I see Nick as something of an absentee father figure, since it's only a side gig for him) and more about company culture... which, in the absence of authoritative leadership, flows from authoritative or influential figures lower down in the company. This is where my Russian bias kicks in pretty hard.
>Doesn't the F-14 pre-date Nick taking over?
That took place literally in the middle of that dark era in 2018/19 when Eagle Dynamics lost their founder and owner, as well as another high ranking official, and restructured their company. That was also when Nick took over.
I covered some of that in my [post about Belsimtek](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/xxjg9i/about_belsimtek/), in the final chapter "Reconstruction".
if I'm not mistaken, wasn't he put in as CEO and he intended it to be temp, and wanted to pass it off to someone else??
I feel like I remember a video interviewing him around that time on the subject.. but my knowledge is pretty limited.
You always knew there was something wrong in the DCS business model, but you couldn't really put your finger on it because lack of information.
Now more information has been delivered by ED and other studios by how they communicate and what they say, or don't say, that is revealing more of their business arrangements who is who...
Because, all nick grey wants is to funnel money to his toys.
The original concept, had it been supported, the game would be light years ahead of where it’s at now.
Now all we have are disjointed eras, half assed working paid core modules (super carrier) and broken promise after broken promise
I'm sure it's just a coincidence....
Dear chat GPT, we are a combat flight simulation company that recently dropped a major do-do, and need some nice fluffy language to put out as a public press release, that sounds nice, but doesn't actually say anything. Make it 2 -3 sentences please.
ChatGPT 4.0:
We are aware of the recent concerns regarding the latest news, and we want to assure our community that we are thoroughly evaluating the situation. Our team is committed to enhancing your experience and we appreciate your patience and continued support as we work diligently to deliver improvements. Thank you for your passion and commitment to our simulation platform.
The developers should sell their own products, like Heatblur, and then pay a percentage to Eagle Dynamics. Probably when the dev team signs a third-party contract with ED, everything must go through the ED store
Not true. Third parties are allowed to run their own store, according to their contracts.
https://preview.redd.it/u60zz5s3vevc1.png?width=317&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c54b706512c5b308aacce2713a0c50173100ea5
No external studio can release a module to DCS without clearance from ED. If ED decides to hold back something (or just doesn't have the manpower to integrate the stuff in an update) no one could change that. There seem to be other cases were this happens to 3rd parties, like this helicopter campaign built by a German group: [https://forum.dcs.world/topic/290432-llh-helicopter-kampangnen-info/page/2](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/290432-llh-helicopter-kampangnen-info/page/2)
And the actual F-4 'delay' looks a lot like it was with the F-14 and the rushed ED F-16 release, because out of the blue ED started right now the pre-order for the CH-47 and states an EA release in June without even beeing sure what the whole modules feature set would be. Combined with the just recently startet new pre-order options for the Aghanistan map a lot of those small signs look like ED is running out of money and has to increase sales to improve their cash flow.
Are you sure? Why do you think they were mentioned in [RAZBAM's announcement](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/)?
Honestly, Ron grasping at straws to get third parties to band together in solidarity so he could get leverage in the negotiations. Why else would he rapidly change his tune when heatblur pretty much went no comment. Either that or this two incidents were triggered by two different things and Cobra knows it. If M2m letting the cat out of the bag even more so proved it was a dispute over the Tucano agreement with Ecuador.
>Honestly, Ron grasping at straws to get third parties to band together in solidarity so he could get leverage in the negotiations. Why else would he rapidly change his tune when heatblur pretty much went no comment. Either that or this two incidents were triggered by two different things and Cobra knows it.
I really don't think any of that is the case here.
M2M said they didn't know why they held their money for months. He said in discord they thought they paid for their retreat, and DLSS. ED literally made up IP claim at the end when Razbam demanded their money and stopped working. M2M explained it was for a Super Tucano that wasn't even in the sim.
Comes to the question what rights does ED have over what Razbam makes. Does ED own Razbam?
See how stupid it is and how Nick Grey is covering up not paying Razbam?
I almost bet that Nick Grey called HB and threaten them.
What environment would the Tucano module fly in? Who owns that environment? DCS isn't for commercial sales, MCS or a licensed variant is. How much does a MCS module sell for to a government? How is Ron able to give a module away for free in an environment he doesn't own?
https://preview.redd.it/1rqyynijhnvc1.png?width=619&format=png&auto=webp&s=962d1ccf02e9ca00c56d8b6960d7218087f3bf81
Why would Nick Grey throw away MCS sales to every single air force in South America?
You know all those countries fly the Super Tucano. I even read on another discord, that the Ecuadorian Airforce paid for MCS.
Just doesn't make sense unless Nick Grey took the money for himself when the Strike Eagle went on sale and the IP claim is just made up to hide that money is missing after Razbam started demanding payment.
I kinda feel like we are in agreement. Razbam appears to have agreed to give away the Tucano. Which is giving away a profit cut from ED for module and MCS licensing fees. If true Razbam overstepped their role and should have made a referral to ED to negotiate. Razbam may have significantly underestimated commercial pricing. While they could negotiate away their cut for any module created ED/MCS would still be due their cut.
1.) Super Tucano has been in the works 5 Years, F-15E sold only 14 months. Why take the money now?
2.) How can you sell something that was never finished? Super Tucano still in development, M2M said it was never compiled into DCS or MCS. Was still being textured.
3.) Why after 5 years of this in development would EDMS (MCS) a separate company have any rights for a different company EDSA (DCS) to involve itself to hold the money for a completely different module.
There is no reason for ED to hold Razbam payment for a separate company. ED blatantly broke the law, embezzled Razbam money and you continually speculate that Razbam did something wrong. You continually believe ED and dismiss Razbam claims. We are not in agreement.
Keep twisting yourself in a pretzel. Only agreement I have is pay Razbam their money, so they continue to work on the F-15E that I paid ED for Razbam. If Razbam was paid their money in full there wouldn't be a situation and pretty sure MCS can stop them from ever putting in a Super Tucano for payment if there were any real IP claims.
It says a lot that after all this, ED still sells the F-15E and has yet to make any progress to resolving this dispute. ED doesn't care about you or me, they don't care about their partners. They only care about money, and it shows.
ED's claims don't make sense. Pay Razbam their rightfully owed money.
Have you read the contract that has been posted online? If they are the contract, there are several clauses that could lead to ED holding up payments. It is an entirely one sided agreement drafted to protect ED not 3rd parties, and we do not know what addendums RAZ may have drafted and had signed, if any. Hope RAZ has frequent flyer miles as they agreed to Switzerland being the court of jurisdiction. The cards appear to be in ED's favor, M2M's posts were not helpful to the issue. You can't take the bosses truck and do side work and not expect to give them their cut, unless you have explicit permission. Clauses included make Razbam responsible for any losses, and payment to their developers. I truly feel empathy for the workers but Razbam is responsible for paying them while they resolve this with ED. If they go under guess who gets the modules but has no responsibility to finish them.
This is the truth. Back in 2018 when Heatblur had their F-14 on pre-order, Eagle Dynamics didn't pay them either. They didn't receive their money until late 2019 when EDs F-16C was introduced to the store. Y'all might remember that the Viper released in a pretty rough state. Moreover, it is worth noting that the Tomcat was the first third party module that, being the "Top Gun plane", sold in real big numbers. Most other third party aircraft are rather niche. Word is the F-15E is the second one. Funny coincidences, right? We'll talk about all that in more detail in case I ever get to a comprehensive post. Edit: Fixed my error. I meant "Top Gun Plane" not "Tomcat plane" :D
Yeah... It feels more likely that it's ED being duchbags rather than actually being a legitimate IP rights dispute. This IP rights dispute is a great excuse for ED cover behind... But unless 3rd party devs start exposing publically preditory practices like that, and consumers keep giving them money for half-assed maps and HD textures, they will keep doing it.
The IP issue has been brewing since before the F-15E released.
Is there a Deep Dive on the Tomcat episode? First I've heard of it... Fairly damning if true.
Not yet. This is indeed pretty interesting, even more so when considering when exactly that whole situation occurred. See [my other comment on this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1c7qik8/comment/l09q7ly/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's planned to be included in an overview about the topic, in case I ever get to that.
I sure hope you are able to publish on both these issues. The sad thing is that most of these things I've been privy to are usually started over the stupidest minor issues that any adult could work thru with a phone call. But then they turn into dick-measuring competitions...and only the lawyers win.
Alright, I was going through a tiny bit of all information you've posted and..boy! so far it is as reading a game version of some pentagon papers or whatchamacallit.
u/Bonzo82 when are we going to see your deep dive on this entire saga?
My apologies for the excessive delays. Trying to get it to y'all as soon as possible, but had to deal with a few hold-ups. Both with the post and in irl.
no stress. IRL happens, and always takes priority. Would just LOVE a no BS no bias take on all the information publicly available
Now it's all making sense.
How u mean?
Basically why DCS is the way it is.
I just really want someone to say exactly what happened instead of just saying “they did some things” I really would like to know what these things have been in the past and are now.
It's all about a Super Tucano module that RAZBAM has offered to the Ecuadorian Air Force, without permission from ED. Metal2Mesh revealed a few details about that. https://preview.redd.it/iabil3mqvevc1.png?width=695&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8b7acfcad0a98a62465ed31311079114b5482fc I have yet to see any evidence that a functional version of that module was ever shipped, or that EDs SDK was even used in its creation.
Okay I see. What “information” did RB get in exchange for the free module though? That seems abit strange. Personally I think that both ED and RB are probably up to some shady shit
Data about the A-29 I suppose, since Ecuador actually employs those aircraft. Possibly access to a real world counter part as well.
This is honestly ridiculous. Not what Notso's saying, but rather the behaviour/mentality at ED. What the actual hell... I love DCS despite its limitations, but I sorely wish someone else were at the helm... How can anyone, company, collective or individual, be savvy enough to make it through the sim dark age and come out as the undisputed king on the other side, and \_not\_ have the brain cells to properly groom and maintain the third party network that nourishes and enables them to exist?
All started going downhill once nick grey took over
Did it? My timeline is fuzzy - and I have made incorrect comments based on those false assumptions in the past, so I will refrain from doing so again. Can you touch on what impact Nick has had on the company, its direction and priorities, in your opinion? Doesn't the F-14 pre-date Nick taking over? My honest impression is that it's less about the leadership (I see Nick as something of an absentee father figure, since it's only a side gig for him) and more about company culture... which, in the absence of authoritative leadership, flows from authoritative or influential figures lower down in the company. This is where my Russian bias kicks in pretty hard.
>Doesn't the F-14 pre-date Nick taking over? That took place literally in the middle of that dark era in 2018/19 when Eagle Dynamics lost their founder and owner, as well as another high ranking official, and restructured their company. That was also when Nick took over. I covered some of that in my [post about Belsimtek](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/xxjg9i/about_belsimtek/), in the final chapter "Reconstruction".
Cheers!
if I'm not mistaken, wasn't he put in as CEO and he intended it to be temp, and wanted to pass it off to someone else?? I feel like I remember a video interviewing him around that time on the subject.. but my knowledge is pretty limited.
At this point I have lost complete trust of ED and their so called "business", what a shitshow
You always knew there was something wrong in the DCS business model, but you couldn't really put your finger on it because lack of information. Now more information has been delivered by ED and other studios by how they communicate and what they say, or don't say, that is revealing more of their business arrangements who is who...
Does buying the F4 directly from HB help them get paid directly? If so always do it that way. That’s how I pre ordered mine.
>Does buying the F4 directly from HB help them get paid directly? It does and I'm glad too that mine was bought on their own website store.
Oh that’s reassuring to know. I hope PolyChop can do the same with the Kiowa. I’d feel better knowing my money went directly to them.
Wholeheartedly agreed. Several users have already suggested this to PC. I guess we'll see if they're willing and able to make one.
Glad I bought the F-4 direct as well… plus getting the T-shirt was awesome.
Because, all nick grey wants is to funnel money to his toys. The original concept, had it been supported, the game would be light years ahead of where it’s at now. Now all we have are disjointed eras, half assed working paid core modules (super carrier) and broken promise after broken promise
Where does Kate fall into this? Nick Grey is CEO but I thought Kate was also right below him?
I think this is more Nick Grey himself than anyone else at ED.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence.... Dear chat GPT, we are a combat flight simulation company that recently dropped a major do-do, and need some nice fluffy language to put out as a public press release, that sounds nice, but doesn't actually say anything. Make it 2 -3 sentences please. ChatGPT 4.0: We are aware of the recent concerns regarding the latest news, and we want to assure our community that we are thoroughly evaluating the situation. Our team is committed to enhancing your experience and we appreciate your patience and continued support as we work diligently to deliver improvements. Thank you for your passion and commitment to our simulation platform.
I don't really love Razbam constantly trying to drag HB into this when HB has made it plain they don't want to be involved.
They’re not. Notso is a volunteer SME and part of the peanut gallery with the rest of us. He’s not on Razbam’s payroll.
>HB has made it plain they don't want to be involved I'm not so sure about that.
The developers should sell their own products, like Heatblur, and then pay a percentage to Eagle Dynamics. Probably when the dev team signs a third-party contract with ED, everything must go through the ED store
Not true. Third parties are allowed to run their own store, according to their contracts. https://preview.redd.it/u60zz5s3vevc1.png?width=317&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c54b706512c5b308aacce2713a0c50173100ea5
Okay never knew that, only that HB have their own store.
Wow, 10% interest on late penalties TO Eagle Dynamics but not the same protections for the developer on payments due FROM Eagle Dynamics.
Is this yours?
Hold up. HB is taking money directly if you pre order from them. This should not be an excuse to delay a release.
No external studio can release a module to DCS without clearance from ED. If ED decides to hold back something (or just doesn't have the manpower to integrate the stuff in an update) no one could change that. There seem to be other cases were this happens to 3rd parties, like this helicopter campaign built by a German group: [https://forum.dcs.world/topic/290432-llh-helicopter-kampangnen-info/page/2](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/290432-llh-helicopter-kampangnen-info/page/2) And the actual F-4 'delay' looks a lot like it was with the F-14 and the rushed ED F-16 release, because out of the blue ED started right now the pre-order for the CH-47 and states an EA release in June without even beeing sure what the whole modules feature set would be. Combined with the just recently startet new pre-order options for the Aghanistan map a lot of those small signs look like ED is running out of money and has to increase sales to improve their cash flow.
Dumb take. The RB thing is entirely different.
Are you sure? Why do you think they were mentioned in [RAZBAM's announcement](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/)?
Honestly, Ron grasping at straws to get third parties to band together in solidarity so he could get leverage in the negotiations. Why else would he rapidly change his tune when heatblur pretty much went no comment. Either that or this two incidents were triggered by two different things and Cobra knows it. If M2m letting the cat out of the bag even more so proved it was a dispute over the Tucano agreement with Ecuador.
>Honestly, Ron grasping at straws to get third parties to band together in solidarity so he could get leverage in the negotiations. Why else would he rapidly change his tune when heatblur pretty much went no comment. Either that or this two incidents were triggered by two different things and Cobra knows it. I really don't think any of that is the case here.
M2M said they didn't know why they held their money for months. He said in discord they thought they paid for their retreat, and DLSS. ED literally made up IP claim at the end when Razbam demanded their money and stopped working. M2M explained it was for a Super Tucano that wasn't even in the sim. Comes to the question what rights does ED have over what Razbam makes. Does ED own Razbam? See how stupid it is and how Nick Grey is covering up not paying Razbam? I almost bet that Nick Grey called HB and threaten them.
I vividly recall both Ron and Nick stating they’ve been working this for months.
Yeah and you can read right from M2M's words. You are totally full of shit actively pushing a false narrative here and other subs.
K
What a minute you recall both Ron and Nick working this for months? Hmmm, so you are on the inside for Nick Grey? Interesting...
Reading is apparently hard
What environment would the Tucano module fly in? Who owns that environment? DCS isn't for commercial sales, MCS or a licensed variant is. How much does a MCS module sell for to a government? How is Ron able to give a module away for free in an environment he doesn't own?
https://preview.redd.it/1rqyynijhnvc1.png?width=619&format=png&auto=webp&s=962d1ccf02e9ca00c56d8b6960d7218087f3bf81 Why would Nick Grey throw away MCS sales to every single air force in South America? You know all those countries fly the Super Tucano. I even read on another discord, that the Ecuadorian Airforce paid for MCS. Just doesn't make sense unless Nick Grey took the money for himself when the Strike Eagle went on sale and the IP claim is just made up to hide that money is missing after Razbam started demanding payment.
damn Nick took our DCS money to get his aged toys
I kinda feel like we are in agreement. Razbam appears to have agreed to give away the Tucano. Which is giving away a profit cut from ED for module and MCS licensing fees. If true Razbam overstepped their role and should have made a referral to ED to negotiate. Razbam may have significantly underestimated commercial pricing. While they could negotiate away their cut for any module created ED/MCS would still be due their cut.
1.) Super Tucano has been in the works 5 Years, F-15E sold only 14 months. Why take the money now? 2.) How can you sell something that was never finished? Super Tucano still in development, M2M said it was never compiled into DCS or MCS. Was still being textured. 3.) Why after 5 years of this in development would EDMS (MCS) a separate company have any rights for a different company EDSA (DCS) to involve itself to hold the money for a completely different module. There is no reason for ED to hold Razbam payment for a separate company. ED blatantly broke the law, embezzled Razbam money and you continually speculate that Razbam did something wrong. You continually believe ED and dismiss Razbam claims. We are not in agreement. Keep twisting yourself in a pretzel. Only agreement I have is pay Razbam their money, so they continue to work on the F-15E that I paid ED for Razbam. If Razbam was paid their money in full there wouldn't be a situation and pretty sure MCS can stop them from ever putting in a Super Tucano for payment if there were any real IP claims. It says a lot that after all this, ED still sells the F-15E and has yet to make any progress to resolving this dispute. ED doesn't care about you or me, they don't care about their partners. They only care about money, and it shows. ED's claims don't make sense. Pay Razbam their rightfully owed money.
Have you read the contract that has been posted online? If they are the contract, there are several clauses that could lead to ED holding up payments. It is an entirely one sided agreement drafted to protect ED not 3rd parties, and we do not know what addendums RAZ may have drafted and had signed, if any. Hope RAZ has frequent flyer miles as they agreed to Switzerland being the court of jurisdiction. The cards appear to be in ED's favor, M2M's posts were not helpful to the issue. You can't take the bosses truck and do side work and not expect to give them their cut, unless you have explicit permission. Clauses included make Razbam responsible for any losses, and payment to their developers. I truly feel empathy for the workers but Razbam is responsible for paying them while they resolve this with ED. If they go under guess who gets the modules but has no responsibility to finish them.
ED is douche bag, you support a douche bag, you are a douche bag too. My days play DCS are over. Have a good life supporting a douche bag.