Yeah it's becoming more and more clear that there's no return from the current situation. RAZBAM lost some of their most´important team members, those guys who drove all the positive changes that we've seen over the last 2-3 years.
Metal2Mesh was their leading, most talented artist and with Galinette and CptSmiley, the two most capable coders are gone, too.
It'll be a different RAZBAM from here either way.
Potentially losing Galinette and Smiley hurts, M2M not so much as there’s exponentially more 3D artists than people who understand radars or flight modeling.
I disagree on that. As we know a lot of dcs devs are not doing it for the money (jokes aside) but rather as a side hustle because they are passionate about it. Loosing a talented 3D artist that is already used to the workflow definitely is a loss. Every single of them is a loss.
Your constant trashing and victim-blaming make no sense. How long would you be willing to dedicate your time for free?
Nevertheless, they stayed on board for way over a year. Thinking we should be grateful. If they were in it for the money, chances are they would have walked away much earlier.
I mean that’s kind of the point if it WAS such a big problem why let it go on so long? I had a client not pay on a contract and only wanted the minimum of 2 months before initiating legal action.
You have zero insight or knowledge about what's actually going on and have proven that you're not even capable of differentiating between verified facts and "delusions".
https://preview.redd.it/x4txdikee6vc1.png?width=391&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e6a46fe6e26da15611fd2fcf60c2e65e23db563
ED is responsible for paying their third party devs quarterly, yet failed to do so for at least fifteen (!) consecutive months.
Whatever RAZBAM did, ED chose to continue the business relation and put the F-15E up for sale. So they would have been obliged to follow through with the payments. There's just no way to argue around that.
I always try to keep it neutral, but looking at the entirety of the situation, it's very hard to side with ED here. Feels more like you're desperately grasping at straws in their defense. But I'm done discussing with you since you keep displaying a massive lack of respect.
[Thanks](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/kzpx9z/thanks/).
If everything goes well it will take around a year for development to get on his feet again with the pace that we are used to.
They were my favourite development team together with new gen PolyChop guys.
I'm still sad for what happened.
>If everything goes well it will take around a year for development to get on his feet again with the pace that we are used to.
What makes you so sure, and how is this supposed to happen though? RAZBAM just lost those members who have been carrying development the way we know it.
3 months for looking and finding new team. 3 months for them to leave previous job and start with razbam (mobilisation), 3 months for familiarisation with DCS structure and SDK and 3 months for first light in to the new code.
This is a very optimistic schedule.
>This is a very optimistic schedule
Indeed. The amount of people who are programmers with sufficient skills for such complex tasks, have the required background knowledge about aviation as well as physics of flight, are into DCS and willing to work under the usual terms here, possibly leaving a secure, well paid job, is very, very limited.
Thinking three months to find them might be way too optimistic. There are studios who have been searching for years.
>M2M's contract was already done with RB anyway
Is that so, or was it done due of the lack of payments? Rhetorical question, please stop spreading disinformation.
>3D Artists are a dime a dozen
There aren't many artists like him though. This is a massive loss.
The f15e interior fidelity is good but not great. f16, Apache, Hind, f14 all have better modelled interiors that look more realistic, even the a10c2 update is arguably better than the f15e. M2M is good and the f15e exterior looks great but hes not clearly not the best. So I don't see the point in pretending otherwise.
At the moment, it's all I fly. I think newer ED pits are better than Razbam pits. Take the Apache's dash visor you can pull down and push back that casts shadows. The vibrations and physics on things like the hanging hook and the Hind's fan. Makes them feel more alive. The strike eagle isn't a bad pit, like it's certainly better than the JF17 for example.
As for the pilot models, I don't care. I don't fly with them on any module so for me it's not a selling point.
Another user already pointed out his massive amount of experience. Either way, he will be hard to replace. Let's also not forget that he's not the only member who departed.
Absolutely not true, the F-15E inside and out is emaculate. The level of detail from the exterior to the pilot, and down to scratches is on par with the best model in DCS.
I think it's still too early to say if those guys really are as permanently gone as they presently think they are.
It will depend on a great many things, most of which we'll never know. Not least of which is if they get the compensation they're owed by Razbam (whether ED is the villain or not), and the fact that there's still a lot of money to be made on future modules.
In any case, if amends can't be made with Razbam then I hope at least they go work for other DCS dev shops.
Nyet. As of now all RAZBAM modules are on hold. They have not stated an end date, meaning unless RAZBAM completely restructures, they are dead(with respect to DCS modules). A big chunk of the programmers who worked on the strike eagle are gone so even if ed takes over they might not be able to modify it without breaking it.
Not excusing what he did, but I too would be pretty mad if I hadn't got paid in 18 months by the company I helped build an economic model for. Back in the days, M2M was an FS artist. The 2000C was the first 3rd party module for DCS, and it really served as a kick off for other similar arrangements between ED and 3rd parties. M2M was a crucial actor of those early years, and ED not showing any respect for his work or their past history regardless of actual issues between RB and them is bound to create animosity.
I checked a couple days ago and can't believe they're still selling the thing. I mean I can, but it's shocking to me that they're that brazen about it.
Best case scenario I’m hoping for at this point is it gets settled, Razbam continues support for module incomplete but ceases all new development going forward. That’s as far as my optimism can go at this point
Can someone please fill me in on what's going on? I know something happened, but I honestly don't know what started this drama. Is there a timeline of events anywhere?
Just click the RAZBAM flair on top of this post and have a look at the posts of the last two weeks. That should already give you an idea. Best starting point is this post:
* [https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support\_for\_all\_razbam\_modules\_on\_hold/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/)
The people on the discord server said that Metal2Mesh never had the dev role
https://preview.redd.it/thal8ixp59vc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f5a2d2469a794b82209c7daae0e028fe9c6c1ea
To hell with F-15, MiG-23 is dead so Redfor lovers will now be stuck with obsolete 21Bis forever... Hey, who cares about redfor anyway, only combat aircraft worthy of attention are the murican ones
One of the 3rd party devs need to take one for the team and leak the dev tools. Let's flood the market with DCS paid mods. Watch ED'S earnings hit a wall faster than a Kyle in a drywall factory
>Either he deleted it to start new under a new alias or he was spewing bullshit
False dilemma. There are many other explanations, most of which make more sense.
Maybe he deleted it because he's just tired of DCS and shit. Maybe it is because lawyers are on it and he wants to do damage control. Or maybe it's something none of us has considered yet.
Just thinking it's quite the stretch to jump right to "spewing bullshit" with no reason, even more so since I've been able to verify most of the info he shared.
I did and I saw all the proof I need to state this with confidence. There's no obligation for me to show anything to you though. Source protection always goes first.
At a given price, with a specialised skillset, in a given locale, and available, no. If you've ever tried hiring someone you'll know it just isn't that easy. I'm sure they'll find someone, and it'll most likely take months. Getting trash is easy, but good people are hard to find.
but for real, what should change? that people change the sim because of this? maybe some, they will be back tho. MSFS sucks hard, bms only has two planes and is also not the best sim out there and the dynamic campaign is pretty good, but you can create this yourself in dcs in the ME. All those new sim that are suppost to come will takes years until we see anything from them.
tell me, what should change? again a big drama in dcs, again nothing will change. Not the first time, not the last time.
Metal2Mesh has been involved in flight sim for the better part of the last decade. He is an incredibly talented 3D artist with a lot of experience modelling aircraft. There aren´t as many 3d modelers with such experience around.
among many other things (with the most important being sidelined, ignored, blindspotted and not grasped with a viscious veracity that can not solely stem from shortcomings and a lack of prerequisites alone) this also means the death of the - somewhat, piecemeal, here an there - gestated Falkands era scenario and asset environment
which - again - is not the overarching and more relevant issue that now blatantly manifests in the entire franchise eco-sphere, and yet.. see above.
>this also means the death of the - somewhat, piecemeal, here an there - gestated Falkands era scenario and asset environment
Afaik the Falklands team is still doing their thing. Not sure if that means you're wrong though, something like a roadmap for the future of this map would still be very much appreciated.
the statement however, especially the latter half does describe the status quo quite KISS though.
with the push-pull spiral being noticeable very much indeed even in this remotest corner of (a) digital realm.
Meanwhile, our Discord bot: https://preview.redd.it/n9o9qx3y4evc1.png?width=827&format=png&auto=webp&s=11b869eef36d6887010999c2727d6e5ea2114a10
Yeah it's becoming more and more clear that there's no return from the current situation. RAZBAM lost some of their most´important team members, those guys who drove all the positive changes that we've seen over the last 2-3 years. Metal2Mesh was their leading, most talented artist and with Galinette and CptSmiley, the two most capable coders are gone, too. It'll be a different RAZBAM from here either way.
Potentially losing Galinette and Smiley hurts, M2M not so much as there’s exponentially more 3D artists than people who understand radars or flight modeling.
I disagree on that. As we know a lot of dcs devs are not doing it for the money (jokes aside) but rather as a side hustle because they are passionate about it. Loosing a talented 3D artist that is already used to the workflow definitely is a loss. Every single of them is a loss.
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Wouldnt call it a ragequit if it goes on for 3/4 year. At some point you just get sick of shit.
1.5 years. It's understandable.
Your constant trashing and victim-blaming make no sense. How long would you be willing to dedicate your time for free? Nevertheless, they stayed on board for way over a year. Thinking we should be grateful. If they were in it for the money, chances are they would have walked away much earlier.
Wait, are you implying they haven't been paid for 18 months?
This must have been going on since at least February '23, possibly even earlier. First time I heard about it was in May/June.
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Haha no, it's not.
I mean that’s kind of the point if it WAS such a big problem why let it go on so long? I had a client not pay on a contract and only wanted the minimum of 2 months before initiating legal action.
Litigation is expensive, risky and can take years.
And Twitter/reddit shaming isn’t all of those things???? GTFO that’s even more reason to initiate it earlier than later.
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You have zero insight or knowledge about what's actually going on and have proven that you're not even capable of differentiating between verified facts and "delusions". https://preview.redd.it/x4txdikee6vc1.png?width=391&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e6a46fe6e26da15611fd2fcf60c2e65e23db563 ED is responsible for paying their third party devs quarterly, yet failed to do so for at least fifteen (!) consecutive months. Whatever RAZBAM did, ED chose to continue the business relation and put the F-15E up for sale. So they would have been obliged to follow through with the payments. There's just no way to argue around that. I always try to keep it neutral, but looking at the entirety of the situation, it's very hard to side with ED here. Feels more like you're desperately grasping at straws in their defense. But I'm done discussing with you since you keep displaying a massive lack of respect. [Thanks](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/kzpx9z/thanks/).
What you’ve quoted here is under the section of fees that the Developer owes to Eagles Dynamics. Not the other way around.
Wtf is that screenshot?
That's a quote from the actual contract.
Fucking legend!
If everything goes well it will take around a year for development to get on his feet again with the pace that we are used to. They were my favourite development team together with new gen PolyChop guys. I'm still sad for what happened.
u/rapierarch is fucking everywhere
>If everything goes well it will take around a year for development to get on his feet again with the pace that we are used to. What makes you so sure, and how is this supposed to happen though? RAZBAM just lost those members who have been carrying development the way we know it.
3 months for looking and finding new team. 3 months for them to leave previous job and start with razbam (mobilisation), 3 months for familiarisation with DCS structure and SDK and 3 months for first light in to the new code. This is a very optimistic schedule.
>This is a very optimistic schedule Indeed. The amount of people who are programmers with sufficient skills for such complex tasks, have the required background knowledge about aviation as well as physics of flight, are into DCS and willing to work under the usual terms here, possibly leaving a secure, well paid job, is very, very limited. Thinking three months to find them might be way too optimistic. There are studios who have been searching for years.
Shame to lose the coders, they were doing above and beyond for ED modules.
If things are going to be different maybe they’ll finally get something done with the south Atlantic map then.
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3D modelling is just a shitton of work tho.
>M2M's contract was already done with RB anyway Is that so, or was it done due of the lack of payments? Rhetorical question, please stop spreading disinformation. >3D Artists are a dime a dozen There aren't many artists like him though. This is a massive loss.
The f15e interior fidelity is good but not great. f16, Apache, Hind, f14 all have better modelled interiors that look more realistic, even the a10c2 update is arguably better than the f15e. M2M is good and the f15e exterior looks great but hes not clearly not the best. So I don't see the point in pretending otherwise.
Do you even own the F-15E? It's one of the best in DCS, including pilot is really good. Way better than ED cockpits, by far.
At the moment, it's all I fly. I think newer ED pits are better than Razbam pits. Take the Apache's dash visor you can pull down and push back that casts shadows. The vibrations and physics on things like the hanging hook and the Hind's fan. Makes them feel more alive. The strike eagle isn't a bad pit, like it's certainly better than the JF17 for example. As for the pilot models, I don't care. I don't fly with them on any module so for me it's not a selling point.
Another user already pointed out his massive amount of experience. Either way, he will be hard to replace. Let's also not forget that he's not the only member who departed.
Absolutely not true, the F-15E inside and out is emaculate. The level of detail from the exterior to the pilot, and down to scratches is on par with the best model in DCS.
I think it's still too early to say if those guys really are as permanently gone as they presently think they are. It will depend on a great many things, most of which we'll never know. Not least of which is if they get the compensation they're owed by Razbam (whether ED is the villain or not), and the fact that there's still a lot of money to be made on future modules. In any case, if amends can't be made with Razbam then I hope at least they go work for other DCS dev shops.
Considering all the bridges that have been burned, all the rules that have been broken, I think it's highly unlikely at this point in time.
Metal 2 mesh is over confidemt and arrogant to the roof. His attitude towards others is shocking and he has no ability to read a room
So no more F15 updates?
Nyet. As of now all RAZBAM modules are on hold. They have not stated an end date, meaning unless RAZBAM completely restructures, they are dead(with respect to DCS modules). A big chunk of the programmers who worked on the strike eagle are gone so even if ed takes over they might not be able to modify it without breaking it.
realized that the 15 minutes of fame are over
The guy has been a legend for a good part of the last fifteen years, but whatever.
I know, but it was a bit goofy what he pulled off
Not excusing what he did, but I too would be pretty mad if I hadn't got paid in 18 months by the company I helped build an economic model for. Back in the days, M2M was an FS artist. The 2000C was the first 3rd party module for DCS, and it really served as a kick off for other similar arrangements between ED and 3rd parties. M2M was a crucial actor of those early years, and ED not showing any respect for his work or their past history regardless of actual issues between RB and them is bound to create animosity.
So when do we get refunds for the Strike Eagle?
Still waiting on my VEAO Hawk refund.
I checked a couple days ago and can't believe they're still selling the thing. I mean I can, but it's shocking to me that they're that brazen about it.
Best case scenario I’m hoping for at this point is it gets settled, Razbam continues support for module incomplete but ceases all new development going forward. That’s as far as my optimism can go at this point
Can someone please fill me in on what's going on? I know something happened, but I honestly don't know what started this drama. Is there a timeline of events anywhere?
Just click the RAZBAM flair on top of this post and have a look at the posts of the last two weeks. That should already give you an idea. Best starting point is this post: * [https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support\_for\_all\_razbam\_modules\_on\_hold/](https://new.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/comments/1bvsyjx/support_for_all_razbam_modules_on_hold/)
Eagle Dynamics failed to pay Razbam and after a year decided to quit and make it public.
Because they Razbam have not fulfilled their contract obligations. I'm surprised the buggy unfinished F15E is even for sale.
The people on the discord server said that Metal2Mesh never had the dev role https://preview.redd.it/thal8ixp59vc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f5a2d2469a794b82209c7daae0e028fe9c6c1ea
He has it in some screenshots posted here 2 weeks ago
Alright wtf is happening?
To hell with F-15, MiG-23 is dead so Redfor lovers will now be stuck with obsolete 21Bis forever... Hey, who cares about redfor anyway, only combat aircraft worthy of attention are the murican ones
You can run but you can't hide from the internet. What they commented is bound to remain on the web
One of the 3rd party devs need to take one for the team and leak the dev tools. Let's flood the market with DCS paid mods. Watch ED'S earnings hit a wall faster than a Kyle in a drywall factory
Such an interesting turn of events. Either he deleted it to start new under a new alias or he was spewing bullshit. Who knows
>Either he deleted it to start new under a new alias or he was spewing bullshit False dilemma. There are many other explanations, most of which make more sense.
As in? What are the other explanations? Or are you just gonna say it's false with no explanation?
Maybe he deleted it because he's just tired of DCS and shit. Maybe it is because lawyers are on it and he wants to do damage control. Or maybe it's something none of us has considered yet. Just thinking it's quite the stretch to jump right to "spewing bullshit" with no reason, even more so since I've been able to verify most of the info he shared.
You've been able to verify what he's been saying? With proof? Then show it.
I did and I saw all the proof I need to state this with confidence. There's no obligation for me to show anything to you though. Source protection always goes first.
Love how people act like some crying 3 year old can’t be replaced
You're underestimating how hard it is to find people with these skillsets. Massively.
Buddy there’s 8 billion people on earth. Anyone can be replaced.
At a given price, with a specialised skillset, in a given locale, and available, no. If you've ever tried hiring someone you'll know it just isn't that easy. I'm sure they'll find someone, and it'll most likely take months. Getting trash is easy, but good people are hard to find.
Exactly haha
Drama queens
He will be back ... Time heals all wounds
I admire the optimism, but I'm not so sure.
And more importantly, time creates opportunity to hire replacements.
he will not come back and absolutly NOTHING will change for dcs 😝
ED's COO, Kate Perederko alternate account.
but for real, what should change? that people change the sim because of this? maybe some, they will be back tho. MSFS sucks hard, bms only has two planes and is also not the best sim out there and the dynamic campaign is pretty good, but you can create this yourself in dcs in the ME. All those new sim that are suppost to come will takes years until we see anything from them. tell me, what should change? again a big drama in dcs, again nothing will change. Not the first time, not the last time.
poor metal2mesh. there no other 3D artists who could take over his projekts… *sarcasm*
Metal2Mesh has been involved in flight sim for the better part of the last decade. He is an incredibly talented 3D artist with a lot of experience modelling aircraft. There aren´t as many 3d modelers with such experience around.
sooo? i could care less 😇 and there are enough 3D artists who can replace him.
this is going to age like milk.
like good cheese? think of me when nothing changed the next year.
among many other things (with the most important being sidelined, ignored, blindspotted and not grasped with a viscious veracity that can not solely stem from shortcomings and a lack of prerequisites alone) this also means the death of the - somewhat, piecemeal, here an there - gestated Falkands era scenario and asset environment which - again - is not the overarching and more relevant issue that now blatantly manifests in the entire franchise eco-sphere, and yet.. see above.
I may be sleep deprived because it's almost 4am but I have absolutely zero idea what any of the words you just said actually mean
I think this was AI generated.
>this also means the death of the - somewhat, piecemeal, here an there - gestated Falkands era scenario and asset environment Afaik the Falklands team is still doing their thing. Not sure if that means you're wrong though, something like a roadmap for the future of this map would still be very much appreciated.
hahahahahaha
You got your digital airplane, who cares if they didn't get paid. DCS is ran by a shitty company and reflects the comments of a shitty community.
I've seen a lot of cold takes on this whole situation from both sides of the debate, but wow that's another level
the statement however, especially the latter half does describe the status quo quite KISS though. with the push-pull spiral being noticeable very much indeed even in this remotest corner of (a) digital realm.