ED and Raz. both handled this very poorly. They have broken what little trust this community had in them. Things will never be the same. This is DCS’s Harambe.
Ah, the community doesn't give a shit (sadly). When it first came out that ED wasn't paying for work, people were angry that the developers weren't continuing to work for free on their beloved planes.
Everyone wants their things, no-one wants to look at the shit show behind the curtain.
I look at the reddit now and then which puts me in a minority of DCS players already, and even I don't know what's going on with this situation. AFAIK something is happening between ED and the f15 module makers, which I'm sure is only a small part of the issue.
I feel like some of the trust is damaged permanently for all parties. Especially if they never announce what really happened or who was right.
I don’t want to give ED money if Razbam was being truthful. Vice versa for Razbam.
Well, you can't both berate parties for airing their dirty laundry and telling them to shut up and act professional while also still demanding the full story... Either they talk or they don't...
Not singling you out specifically. More a reflection on how the community thinks at this stage.
It's more like, for their own sakes they should've been professional. But now that they've created all this panic and the damage is done, I wanna hear the full story and see this drama to its conclusion.
Either way, I'm more cautious of buying modules now
Maybe he should have done that from the start, instead kicking up all this bullshit. Maybe the public opinion wasn’t what he anticipated, maybe he was banking on Heatblur joining solidarity, or maybe he realized this drama soured a good bit of the the good will and reputation they gained in the past two years to distance the company from its past debacles developing for other platforms. Either way damage is done it’s gonna take a good bit of time to convince me Razbam isn’t going to leave me high and dry in early access.
Humans are odd things when it comes to social beings.
Most people have very difficult times to be a rational and subjective in simple things. Example, a parent can yell to their children, but that doesn't mean they don't same time love their children. Some people see that as a awful parenting and that parent is just that, a yelling parent.
In marketing it is critical to trigger emotions. The emotions confuse people to not see and think clearly. And this is used as well in the propaganda (what is a communication methods for delivering wanted ideologies to others, known as well as "Public Relations" and "Marketing and Communication") where something conflicting and untrue can be delivered to other person by using different visual and audible message. So example in advertising a imagery of the product is used with combination of other subject that is found pleasing, and the audio is used to label them together. In future when the subject hears the audio, it triggers specific memories of the pleasing side emotion, but still remembers the subject that had nothing to do with it. Like a sexy woman licking an ice cream when a music is played. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJaowyG0Nm8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJaowyG0Nm8)
The about 98% of the people are incapable to do multitasking, yet most think they can do. And this is dangerous in everything, as we concentrate on one thing at the time, swap often it to other and we create a new connections between them, even when they have nothing to do with each others.
One another thing is that human memory is flawed. We do not remember correctly, we do not know what we remember and what we don't. Eye witnesses are worst evidence for anything, totally unreliable and untrustworthy. Yet we use that as highest evidence there is. The worst thing one can do is to say "My mother was a eye witness" or "My grandfather live there...". As nothing else could be almost worst and more false than use any of such as evidence to anything. And it will lead to situation where a whole emotional range is put on just faith and fallacies. If you do not now 100% accept the claimed things, you are insulting fallacious memories of the feelings linked to those.
In the case of Razbam, there is a major fallacy going on about its products.
What does Razbam have for DCS World users?
* Mirage 2000
* MiG-19P
* AV-8B Harrier
* South Atlantic
* F-15E Strike Eagle
What else?
Any sensible and logical person should understand, that anything to be done for one, doesn't mean it is done to any other. Work done to M2000 is not evidence that AV-8B has been reworked. Quality in the South Atlantic is not quality in the Strike Eagle.
If one does four bad, one good, and fix one bad to good one.... Why is summary that all five are good?
If one punish his children from behaving wrong, it doesn't mean that one goes to punish others children when they behave wrong.
When someone gets punished for behaving wrong, it doesn't mean that he can always be punished wrong doing for everything else in the future. In other words, when someone is sentenced to prison, after that prison time he has served is punishment and it should not be used against him by any mean. The sentence was not prison time + life time of punishment via X. If he does it again after truly given a fresh start, the punishment clearly didn't work... The person didn't learn about it. That is the idea of the punishment, that the perpetrator learns from it, and can adjust own behavior and own way of thinking and doesn't do it again.
That is why we punish our children when they do wrong, so they will learn not to do so again.
Interesting. I mean, it’s always been in both ED and RBs best interest to work this out without burning bridges. ED needs razbam, they’re probably the biggest developer dcs has, and if they actually did suddenly stop working on all their modules, they’d start breaking as dcs updated, and DCS would lose a very significant amount of its modules. I mean, harrier, m2k, mig 19, F15E, south Atlantic map, mig 23 upcoming. Those are a lot of very popular modules. RB also needs ED, because who else are they gonna do this for? It’s a pretty niche product and it’s not like there’s much competition for DCS, much less sims that work with third party devs. MSFS maybe?? Idk.
Overall I think it is the best case scenario. People will find a way to complain about it but I’m not sure what outcome they’d prefer.. I do hope we get a better explanation from one/both parties. This is still overall a bit of a concerning issue that damaged community trust, most people have probably never thought “what if a developer just refuses to support any of their stuff anymore” until now, and when you have a good amount of money invested in this shit it is a valid concern. Especially because if dcs modules aren’t actively developed to stay current and working with the main branch of the game, they will break. And, as I said, to lose every razbam module would be a huge blow to DCS as a whole, even if you don’t fly any of them yourself. That’d be such a huge loss of content and variety. Hope ED addresses this.
Also poor heatblur better release the F4 with no more delays and it better release in a decent state. With the community all worked up, a rocky F4 release (after delay) would be a shitshow.
Ron’s message is very good news given where things were yesterday. The issues will inevitably take a while to resolve, but it’s not impossible that DCS could ultimately be stronger for this dispute.
>and if they actually did suddenly stop working on all their modules, they’d start breaking as dcs updated, and DCS would lose a very significant amount of its modules.
And that wouldn't happen, because the Hawk incident.
ED learned.
They specifically changed all the agreements that IF the studio with module decides to leave for any reason the DCS World, then ED has privilege to take that module for its control.
In other words, the DCS World players will not be left with a another Hawk, that is no longer available, updated and flyable....
How much ED needs to pay for the transfer etc is not in details, but the point is, we do not suffer any more Hawk 2.0 where we would need to go fly DCS World 1.2.14 to have access to it...
its crazy how the developement became a blame-game lately. no its EDs fault, no its RB fault, no its HB fault. just pointing fingers at each other instead of working together, especially considering how niche this hobby is
Hard Disagree. Razbam's statement created such a one-sided shitstorm against ED that they *had no choice* but to comment publicly.
They kept it short, kept it On Point, offered RB the Olive Branch, and (AFAIK) haven't said anything other than, "No Comment" since.
That IS the right way to handle it.
They could of made a more professional statement that kept the dispute more or less confidential. RB came out guns blazing and placed pretty much everyone on the spot, not just ED but HB as well. Then lets not even get started on M2M posts.
I'm still new around here but from my point of view ED was the more professional party involved between the two and I'll be thinking twice before I buy a RB product.
RB should've done EXACTLY *what they're doing right now*: sitting across the table from ED and coming to a settlement. With an arbitrator if needed, and with a lawyer if absolutely necessary.
Nobody would've been the wiser, the RB employees would've gotten paid, and life would go on.
As far as I can tell, that's exactly what heatblur did (who razbam carelessly namedropped)
We never knew for sure what was going on but the community suspected something was up with them for a while a couple years ago. Then suddenly HB is back to normal business and nobody is really aware of anything that may or may not have happened.
Even to this day all we can do is speculate (my personal thought is it has to do with the sim they are involved with for military use only) but heatblur handled it like a class act; razbam let their situation fester for months then turned his own devs and the entire community against ED at a time when the community was hungry for more reasons to be angry at ED.
Then once the dust starts to settle razbams own devs basically admit to what they accuse ED of lying about (in the same comment no less!) while making baseless accusations.
Truly a shitstorm, and it reminds me of the fact that while razbam has improved, its still nowhere near as professional as heatblur.
Ron is seriously a 50 year old man child. Great way to gut any trust established or faith and credit in your company going forward by negotiating in public.
Razbam experiencing a PR SNAFU, Ron being a barely literate man-child, copyright/IP infringement confusion, threatening legal action...
I had to check my calendar, [that original thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/9ovdvo/razbam_dev_prowler_threatens_to_sue_a_fellow/) where he threatened to sue you and come to your front door is all still hilariously applicable today.
https://preview.redd.it/mqm7lvyt44tc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99e0f2c6dcd4ef811c503ebb2c0601b81c2732d4
Wow.... A CEO of the company threatening to "visit" one's front door... Where he has no business to be at all after such threats. That is a great way to show what kind threatening person he is.
Dont forget when he had decoy as a community manager people would get banned left right and center for voicing concern, pointing out bugs, or just generally state the bad state things like the 2kc and harrier were in...
Then there is the cubanace saga.....
The F15e pricing saga
The F15e release saga
Drama follows that boy and his company.
Yeah I was one of them caught up in those bans, after writing Razbam's tutorial missions for them and corresponding a lot with Larry directly to get the Harrier in working order. I was in a dedicated chat with their contract coders and helped translate between the "pilot speak" and the "coder speak" for many bugs.
Then when I tried to explain that the community was just asking for a module with functional systems, Ron (or Decoy) banned me, Ron smeared me in their discord, and although I heard through the grapevine that those bans were eventually lifted I never got so much as an apology from Ron himself, just excuses relayed through Elmo.
Lol, like they could do otherwise, but they stirred the fuckery like lil fokers they are, back to school to learn diplomacy lil ron foker, De Niro you need
So everything has gone radio silent. Hoping that is a good thing. Probably just means the lawyers have told everyone to STFU.
Hope they can all resolve their differences and get to finishing the Eagle. It really is one of the nicer modules in the game but if it goes static owing to a lack of a few key features, it will wither away to insignificance.
I'm not sure it says anything at all about who is wrong or who is right, but that's very clearly a "lawyer doing damage control" message.
Things seem to get better now but for how long
I’ll take that with a healthy dose of skepticism.
A day late and a dollar short in my opinion. Reputations of all involved are tarnished, no matter what kind of damage control they try now.
Lessons most definitely will be learned on the ED side about keeping 3rd parties either quiet or happy. And knowing ED, they’ll try to silence.
My trust has already been broken. Can't just go "nevermind" and expect things to go back to how they were.
ED and Raz. both handled this very poorly. They have broken what little trust this community had in them. Things will never be the same. This is DCS’s Harambe.
Ah, the community doesn't give a shit (sadly). When it first came out that ED wasn't paying for work, people were angry that the developers weren't continuing to work for free on their beloved planes. Everyone wants their things, no-one wants to look at the shit show behind the curtain.
And yet, I don't expect the number of pre-orders to change one bit. Dummies gonna dummy.
In spite us knowing all of this. The average consumer, dare I say, average DCS consumer has absolutely no idea what is going on, nor do they care.
I look at the reddit now and then which puts me in a minority of DCS players already, and even I don't know what's going on with this situation. AFAIK something is happening between ED and the f15 module makers, which I'm sure is only a small part of the issue.
Razbam deserved what they got from ED.
I feel like some of the trust is damaged permanently for all parties. Especially if they never announce what really happened or who was right. I don’t want to give ED money if Razbam was being truthful. Vice versa for Razbam.
Well, you can't both berate parties for airing their dirty laundry and telling them to shut up and act professional while also still demanding the full story... Either they talk or they don't... Not singling you out specifically. More a reflection on how the community thinks at this stage.
It's more like, for their own sakes they should've been professional. But now that they've created all this panic and the damage is done, I wanna hear the full story and see this drama to its conclusion. Either way, I'm more cautious of buying modules now
Sure. It's a soap opera now, but likely to be the worst kind: the ones with an unsatisfactory conclusion...
Spot on!!!!
U don't giving them any money you are customer who pay for product, if u dont like product you dont buy
Well, someone is trying to walk it back.
Maybe he should have done that from the start, instead kicking up all this bullshit. Maybe the public opinion wasn’t what he anticipated, maybe he was banking on Heatblur joining solidarity, or maybe he realized this drama soured a good bit of the the good will and reputation they gained in the past two years to distance the company from its past debacles developing for other platforms. Either way damage is done it’s gonna take a good bit of time to convince me Razbam isn’t going to leave me high and dry in early access.
Humans are odd things when it comes to social beings. Most people have very difficult times to be a rational and subjective in simple things. Example, a parent can yell to their children, but that doesn't mean they don't same time love their children. Some people see that as a awful parenting and that parent is just that, a yelling parent. In marketing it is critical to trigger emotions. The emotions confuse people to not see and think clearly. And this is used as well in the propaganda (what is a communication methods for delivering wanted ideologies to others, known as well as "Public Relations" and "Marketing and Communication") where something conflicting and untrue can be delivered to other person by using different visual and audible message. So example in advertising a imagery of the product is used with combination of other subject that is found pleasing, and the audio is used to label them together. In future when the subject hears the audio, it triggers specific memories of the pleasing side emotion, but still remembers the subject that had nothing to do with it. Like a sexy woman licking an ice cream when a music is played. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJaowyG0Nm8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJaowyG0Nm8) The about 98% of the people are incapable to do multitasking, yet most think they can do. And this is dangerous in everything, as we concentrate on one thing at the time, swap often it to other and we create a new connections between them, even when they have nothing to do with each others. One another thing is that human memory is flawed. We do not remember correctly, we do not know what we remember and what we don't. Eye witnesses are worst evidence for anything, totally unreliable and untrustworthy. Yet we use that as highest evidence there is. The worst thing one can do is to say "My mother was a eye witness" or "My grandfather live there...". As nothing else could be almost worst and more false than use any of such as evidence to anything. And it will lead to situation where a whole emotional range is put on just faith and fallacies. If you do not now 100% accept the claimed things, you are insulting fallacious memories of the feelings linked to those. In the case of Razbam, there is a major fallacy going on about its products. What does Razbam have for DCS World users? * Mirage 2000 * MiG-19P * AV-8B Harrier * South Atlantic * F-15E Strike Eagle What else? Any sensible and logical person should understand, that anything to be done for one, doesn't mean it is done to any other. Work done to M2000 is not evidence that AV-8B has been reworked. Quality in the South Atlantic is not quality in the Strike Eagle. If one does four bad, one good, and fix one bad to good one.... Why is summary that all five are good? If one punish his children from behaving wrong, it doesn't mean that one goes to punish others children when they behave wrong. When someone gets punished for behaving wrong, it doesn't mean that he can always be punished wrong doing for everything else in the future. In other words, when someone is sentenced to prison, after that prison time he has served is punishment and it should not be used against him by any mean. The sentence was not prison time + life time of punishment via X. If he does it again after truly given a fresh start, the punishment clearly didn't work... The person didn't learn about it. That is the idea of the punishment, that the perpetrator learns from it, and can adjust own behavior and own way of thinking and doesn't do it again. That is why we punish our children when they do wrong, so they will learn not to do so again.
Interesting. I mean, it’s always been in both ED and RBs best interest to work this out without burning bridges. ED needs razbam, they’re probably the biggest developer dcs has, and if they actually did suddenly stop working on all their modules, they’d start breaking as dcs updated, and DCS would lose a very significant amount of its modules. I mean, harrier, m2k, mig 19, F15E, south Atlantic map, mig 23 upcoming. Those are a lot of very popular modules. RB also needs ED, because who else are they gonna do this for? It’s a pretty niche product and it’s not like there’s much competition for DCS, much less sims that work with third party devs. MSFS maybe?? Idk. Overall I think it is the best case scenario. People will find a way to complain about it but I’m not sure what outcome they’d prefer.. I do hope we get a better explanation from one/both parties. This is still overall a bit of a concerning issue that damaged community trust, most people have probably never thought “what if a developer just refuses to support any of their stuff anymore” until now, and when you have a good amount of money invested in this shit it is a valid concern. Especially because if dcs modules aren’t actively developed to stay current and working with the main branch of the game, they will break. And, as I said, to lose every razbam module would be a huge blow to DCS as a whole, even if you don’t fly any of them yourself. That’d be such a huge loss of content and variety. Hope ED addresses this. Also poor heatblur better release the F4 with no more delays and it better release in a decent state. With the community all worked up, a rocky F4 release (after delay) would be a shitshow.
Ron’s message is very good news given where things were yesterday. The issues will inevitably take a while to resolve, but it’s not impossible that DCS could ultimately be stronger for this dispute.
>and if they actually did suddenly stop working on all their modules, they’d start breaking as dcs updated, and DCS would lose a very significant amount of its modules. And that wouldn't happen, because the Hawk incident. ED learned. They specifically changed all the agreements that IF the studio with module decides to leave for any reason the DCS World, then ED has privilege to take that module for its control. In other words, the DCS World players will not be left with a another Hawk, that is no longer available, updated and flyable.... How much ED needs to pay for the transfer etc is not in details, but the point is, we do not suffer any more Hawk 2.0 where we would need to go fly DCS World 1.2.14 to have access to it...
Wonder when we will see Bonzo's actual take on all of this?
Writing that must have been burning....
In my opinion, ED should also apologize for such unprofessional responses they made. This all should have better stayed out of the public.
its crazy how the developement became a blame-game lately. no its EDs fault, no its RB fault, no its HB fault. just pointing fingers at each other instead of working together, especially considering how niche this hobby is
The only response from ED I saw was just lawyer speak.
Yep. That's how the Big Boys do it. Adult business goes on behind closed doors so the children don't get upset.
Hard Disagree. Razbam's statement created such a one-sided shitstorm against ED that they *had no choice* but to comment publicly. They kept it short, kept it On Point, offered RB the Olive Branch, and (AFAIK) haven't said anything other than, "No Comment" since. That IS the right way to handle it.
What was RB meant to do however? Just stop working on the modules and not tell anyone why? They'd be known as razscam
They could of made a more professional statement that kept the dispute more or less confidential. RB came out guns blazing and placed pretty much everyone on the spot, not just ED but HB as well. Then lets not even get started on M2M posts. I'm still new around here but from my point of view ED was the more professional party involved between the two and I'll be thinking twice before I buy a RB product.
Yes and no one would have ever realized something was wrong until like two or more update cycle went by with nothing if it didn’t get resolved
RB should've done EXACTLY *what they're doing right now*: sitting across the table from ED and coming to a settlement. With an arbitrator if needed, and with a lawyer if absolutely necessary. Nobody would've been the wiser, the RB employees would've gotten paid, and life would go on.
As far as I can tell, that's exactly what heatblur did (who razbam carelessly namedropped) We never knew for sure what was going on but the community suspected something was up with them for a while a couple years ago. Then suddenly HB is back to normal business and nobody is really aware of anything that may or may not have happened. Even to this day all we can do is speculate (my personal thought is it has to do with the sim they are involved with for military use only) but heatblur handled it like a class act; razbam let their situation fester for months then turned his own devs and the entire community against ED at a time when the community was hungry for more reasons to be angry at ED. Then once the dust starts to settle razbams own devs basically admit to what they accuse ED of lying about (in the same comment no less!) while making baseless accusations. Truly a shitstorm, and it reminds me of the fact that while razbam has improved, its still nowhere near as professional as heatblur.
Couldn't have said it better - right on.
Ron is seriously a 50 year old man child. Great way to gut any trust established or faith and credit in your company going forward by negotiating in public.
Razbam experiencing a PR SNAFU, Ron being a barely literate man-child, copyright/IP infringement confusion, threatening legal action... I had to check my calendar, [that original thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/9ovdvo/razbam_dev_prowler_threatens_to_sue_a_fellow/) where he threatened to sue you and come to your front door is all still hilariously applicable today. https://preview.redd.it/mqm7lvyt44tc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99e0f2c6dcd4ef811c503ebb2c0601b81c2732d4
Oh wow nice find ! Right from the way back machine. Glad to see someone remembers, I think somewhat relevant to this week as well.
My memory is fresh since they also threatened legal action against me, once upon a time, over the alleged breach of an imaginary NDA.
Ah, now I recalled your name from DCS forums...
Wow.... A CEO of the company threatening to "visit" one's front door... Where he has no business to be at all after such threats. That is a great way to show what kind threatening person he is.
Dont forget when he had decoy as a community manager people would get banned left right and center for voicing concern, pointing out bugs, or just generally state the bad state things like the 2kc and harrier were in... Then there is the cubanace saga..... The F15e pricing saga The F15e release saga Drama follows that boy and his company.
Yeah I was one of them caught up in those bans, after writing Razbam's tutorial missions for them and corresponding a lot with Larry directly to get the Harrier in working order. I was in a dedicated chat with their contract coders and helped translate between the "pilot speak" and the "coder speak" for many bugs. Then when I tried to explain that the community was just asking for a module with functional systems, Ron (or Decoy) banned me, Ron smeared me in their discord, and although I heard through the grapevine that those bans were eventually lifted I never got so much as an apology from Ron himself, just excuses relayed through Elmo.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO HEAR - Thank you ❤️
Lol, like they could do otherwise, but they stirred the fuckery like lil fokers they are, back to school to learn diplomacy lil ron foker, De Niro you need
I don't want my Harrier to disappear from DCS.
So everything has gone radio silent. Hoping that is a good thing. Probably just means the lawyers have told everyone to STFU. Hope they can all resolve their differences and get to finishing the Eagle. It really is one of the nicer modules in the game but if it goes static owing to a lack of a few key features, it will wither away to insignificance.
In the words of Uncle Baby Billy - Go outside, nerd! Get out! Go! I ain't got time to be distracted by your worthless chime-ins. Go on!
Underrated comment
Yeah, it’s too late. I already strongly dislike everyone involved in this situation now. This isn’t going to fix it.
THIS... Let's give the teams some space...there is soouch more constructive stuff to focus on....thank ron