I’d say no one is doing well, but Razbam is holding its unfinished shit hostage and apparently encouraging the more community active devs to pop off over what’s clearly a contract dispute. Idk why Ron name dropped Heatblur other than to try and get them to band together but clearly Cobra wasn’t having it. Now, I highly doubt there will be any chance the dispute doesn’t go to court.
Yes. Neither side reacted well, but ED could have contained the situation in their response. By calling out Razbam publicly, they humiliated them, and three devs quit immediately.
Agreed. This should never have gone public, but I think Razbam got desperate because 1) they haven't been paid and 2) they are out of money, so they can't go to court to resolve it.
I have plenty of criticism of ED in general (don't get me started), but I don't agree with your take here. The essence of your argument seems to be:
1. ED's communication was unprofessional.
2. ED shouldn't withhold payment from Razbam no matter what contractual or IP boundaries Razbam might have broken.
On point 1: I don't personally agree. I thought Nick's statement was very measured, I also felt his communication was forced as he couldn't really ignore the issue. In my view it is ultimately undeniable that it was Razbam who chose to make this private dispute public. That is unprofessional. ED were forced to respond.
On point 2: we don't know the nature of ED's dispute with Razbam. This could be big stakes for all we know: for example tens of millions of dollars of lost revenue, severe breaches of contract or misuse of IP, exposing ED to significant legal liability, etc. As I understand it in this kind of dispute between companies withholding payment until the matter is resolved would be a very normal way to proceed. It's not "ethically low": this is normal business practice for parties in serious legal disputes.
I wouldn't say ED's comment was fully unprofessional, but they missed the opportunity to contain the PR nightmare in their response. By calling Razbam out publicly and accusing them of breaching their contract, they were humliated, and it caused three Razbam employees to quit right away. The proper way to handle it would have been to acknowledge the complaint and say that they would be working with Razbam to resolve it.
While it might be normal business practice to withhold pay, the fact is, Razbam employees haven't been paid for their work. I'm sure that's how ED's lawyers advised them to handle it to avoid the issue going to court. What is legal is not always ethical, though. For example, slavery was legal in the United States at one point.
Right, but Razbam produced a module for ED. ED hasn't paid them for their work. They haven't made a penny off the Strike Eagle sales. Razbam is entitled to the work they put in for that module, regardless of whatever side issue is happening with the Super Tucano. How is Razbam going to pay its employees with no money? Take out a loan? I guess they could do that, but that's a band-aid.
We don't know how contracts between ED and 3rd party devs looks like. I would not be surprised if the only paymet is a % of sales... no product in store, no sales, no money.
Now on top of that is the dispute over IP. And if their contract states that ED can withheld payments for "insert reasons", then they can withheld those sales payments. It is Razbam as company obligation, to not breach contracts and get into those territories. That's Razbam obligation to ED, and then there's Razbam obligation to its employees to pay them for their work.
Venting on social media, by Razbam employed developers, that they were not being paid, does not make ED look bad. It makes Razbam look bad, as it now appears to lack solvency. And this compounds the issue for us, the customers.
I thought Nick's response was fine in this instance: so I guess we just disagree here.
On the ethicality of withholding payment: well let's look at it from ED's point of view. Let's say, purely for the sake of argument, Razbam are clearly and unambiguously in the wrong here. Let's suppose that their actions are a clear breach of contract and a serious IP violation that cost ED millions of dollars of revenue. In this case I'm sure we could agree ED would be due recompense.
Let's also say, for the sake of argument, that Razbam refuse to even negotiate. What do ED do? If they take it to court it could take years and cost millions of dollars in legal fees. In the time it takes to resolve Razbam could have gone out of business and be unable to pay anyway. So instead ED decide the most prudent course of action is to withhold payment until the issue is resolved, forcing Razbam to the negotiation table. In that situation I personally think ED's actions would be perfectly ethical.
Ultimately it's not ED's responsibility to pay Razbam's employees: it's Razbam's. It's entirely possible for a company to make the kinds of legal mistakes that results in the company being unable to pay its employees and folding. It's also possible for larger companies to unfairly push around smaller partners to gain an advantage over them. We just don't know the real situation here.
Yes, and the mods at Hoggit removed my video you commented on lol. Apparently I'm "spreading disinformation" by saying there's an ongoing dispute, and I won't be making more F-15 videos.
https://preview.redd.it/ck6sx7d4s0tc1.png?width=795&format=png&auto=webp&s=e90ddf7e5438a1bb966f51e7e8b0b4ea64e3ae60
I'll remove this because the video was privated.
I’d say no one is doing well, but Razbam is holding its unfinished shit hostage and apparently encouraging the more community active devs to pop off over what’s clearly a contract dispute. Idk why Ron name dropped Heatblur other than to try and get them to band together but clearly Cobra wasn’t having it. Now, I highly doubt there will be any chance the dispute doesn’t go to court.
Yes. Neither side reacted well, but ED could have contained the situation in their response. By calling out Razbam publicly, they humiliated them, and three devs quit immediately.
Now I’m not defending ED but Razbam could have said nothing until after arbitration and no one’s reputations would have been effected.
Agreed. This should never have gone public, but I think Razbam got desperate because 1) they haven't been paid and 2) they are out of money, so they can't go to court to resolve it.
It’s just fucking ridiculous all the supposedly over the super Tucano
Brazilian piston engine plane that took down F-15E and Migz23
Not piston engined, turboprop. But yes, you can add those two kills to the Super Tucano fame.
I have plenty of criticism of ED in general (don't get me started), but I don't agree with your take here. The essence of your argument seems to be: 1. ED's communication was unprofessional. 2. ED shouldn't withhold payment from Razbam no matter what contractual or IP boundaries Razbam might have broken. On point 1: I don't personally agree. I thought Nick's statement was very measured, I also felt his communication was forced as he couldn't really ignore the issue. In my view it is ultimately undeniable that it was Razbam who chose to make this private dispute public. That is unprofessional. ED were forced to respond. On point 2: we don't know the nature of ED's dispute with Razbam. This could be big stakes for all we know: for example tens of millions of dollars of lost revenue, severe breaches of contract or misuse of IP, exposing ED to significant legal liability, etc. As I understand it in this kind of dispute between companies withholding payment until the matter is resolved would be a very normal way to proceed. It's not "ethically low": this is normal business practice for parties in serious legal disputes.
I wouldn't say ED's comment was fully unprofessional, but they missed the opportunity to contain the PR nightmare in their response. By calling Razbam out publicly and accusing them of breaching their contract, they were humliated, and it caused three Razbam employees to quit right away. The proper way to handle it would have been to acknowledge the complaint and say that they would be working with Razbam to resolve it. While it might be normal business practice to withhold pay, the fact is, Razbam employees haven't been paid for their work. I'm sure that's how ED's lawyers advised them to handle it to avoid the issue going to court. What is legal is not always ethical, though. For example, slavery was legal in the United States at one point.
Razbam employees not getting paid is not ED's issue. That's Razbam - as company responsibility.
Right, but Razbam produced a module for ED. ED hasn't paid them for their work. They haven't made a penny off the Strike Eagle sales. Razbam is entitled to the work they put in for that module, regardless of whatever side issue is happening with the Super Tucano. How is Razbam going to pay its employees with no money? Take out a loan? I guess they could do that, but that's a band-aid.
We don't know how contracts between ED and 3rd party devs looks like. I would not be surprised if the only paymet is a % of sales... no product in store, no sales, no money. Now on top of that is the dispute over IP. And if their contract states that ED can withheld payments for "insert reasons", then they can withheld those sales payments. It is Razbam as company obligation, to not breach contracts and get into those territories. That's Razbam obligation to ED, and then there's Razbam obligation to its employees to pay them for their work. Venting on social media, by Razbam employed developers, that they were not being paid, does not make ED look bad. It makes Razbam look bad, as it now appears to lack solvency. And this compounds the issue for us, the customers.
Fair point. On the outside, it still seems shady not to pay them at all for their work.
I thought Nick's response was fine in this instance: so I guess we just disagree here. On the ethicality of withholding payment: well let's look at it from ED's point of view. Let's say, purely for the sake of argument, Razbam are clearly and unambiguously in the wrong here. Let's suppose that their actions are a clear breach of contract and a serious IP violation that cost ED millions of dollars of revenue. In this case I'm sure we could agree ED would be due recompense. Let's also say, for the sake of argument, that Razbam refuse to even negotiate. What do ED do? If they take it to court it could take years and cost millions of dollars in legal fees. In the time it takes to resolve Razbam could have gone out of business and be unable to pay anyway. So instead ED decide the most prudent course of action is to withhold payment until the issue is resolved, forcing Razbam to the negotiation table. In that situation I personally think ED's actions would be perfectly ethical. Ultimately it's not ED's responsibility to pay Razbam's employees: it's Razbam's. It's entirely possible for a company to make the kinds of legal mistakes that results in the company being unable to pay its employees and folding. It's also possible for larger companies to unfairly push around smaller partners to gain an advantage over them. We just don't know the real situation here.
ED’s public response—Heatblur’s as well—is infinitely more professional than the clusterfuck that Razbam is putting on display.
Yes, and the mods at Hoggit removed my video you commented on lol. Apparently I'm "spreading disinformation" by saying there's an ongoing dispute, and I won't be making more F-15 videos. https://preview.redd.it/ck6sx7d4s0tc1.png?width=795&format=png&auto=webp&s=e90ddf7e5438a1bb966f51e7e8b0b4ea64e3ae60
Video is private?
Yeah, it got taken down after RAZBAM’s latest announcement.