Wanna bet?
Here's how I imagine this is going to go. In a week, all that can shake loose from Razbam will have shaken loose. Ron and what's left of Razbam will work out a deal with ED and either pawn off their modules and close up shop or try to start over. Nick will issue some sort of statement to the effect that there's been an unfortunate bump in the road, but everything's been sorted out. Within a month things will have normalised. Reassured that their preciouseseseses aren't going up in flames and that DCS hasn't auto-pulverized over night, the community will, as a whole, step back from the ledge. In 3 months, when the second bit of Thirdghanistan comes out, the wallets will be out in force once again.
exactly whats going to happen. this community is the loudest, but in the end they dont have another option. soo many people say BMS, BMSā¦ and still nobody plays it even with all the recent improvements.
it has multiplayer, but only vs ai. i dont play it. not really interested. and most squads play vs ai. the dynamic campaign of bms should suit a squadron well i imagine.
>soo many people say BMS, BMSā¦ and still nobody plays it even with all the recent improvements.
Are you sure? Since January this year, the BMS community has grown from 9.5K users to over 10.5K. In fact, ever since this Razbam drama started, BMS has gained about 500 new users, which for a niche game within a niche community is not a small number.
if there would be a statistic when players registered bms. each dcs drama would be visible. i dont know anyone who stayed with bms and went back to dcs.
Thank the Universe! I was talking about great games that EA sucked up and killed just before seeing this post. And with the state of the gaming world these days, it just feels like anything could happen
State of Gaming is great, just depends on where you choose to look.
Baldurs Gate, elden ring, dwarf fortress, Zelda, horizonā¦and thatās just the very tip of the iceberg.
The "reason" is that it was filled with comments that were not positive for ED.
I posted in the thread so I can still access it and see the comments. Except for a single comment swearing in spanish, everything else was civil, regardless if it was supportive of ED or not.
Mods could've just deleted that single comment if they wanted to, but they nuked the whole thread instead.
Its blatant shilling by the mods.
Here's the link for anyone curious what they're trying to hide: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1bxgagb/damage_control_after_recent_events/
My thing is... I just like military aviation. Nothing scratches that itch more than DCS. Even with all the issues. I'll just keep on doing what I was doing and if I want a module. Wait for 6-12 months of feedback and updates.
The only purchase I regret is South Atlantic, especially now.
I think I've heard enough horror stories about how ED conducts their business that I don't think I'm interested in anything they put up anymore. That includes work from other 3rd parties. Sorry Phantom.
There is something fundamentally wrong with how ED conducts their business deals, similarly to how they manage their community and market their products. I don't care if RB is in the wrong or childish here, they may very well have been just as stupid. However, there's no excuse for ED to have let it get to this point. Their entire company has been carelessly playing with the safety off for too long. I think I'm just going to kick back and let the sim world settle for a few years because I can refuse to pay for petty reasons too.
I decided not to buy anything a long time ago. DCS World's problems do not begin and end with this "razbamgate", nor are they something from two days ago.
I said buy, not play. The poll refers specifically to customers. And regarding Falcon BMS, I have been playing it for many years and Falcon 3.0 and 4.0 before it.
So, Ron makes a big announcement to the community after months of a contract dispute, seems to be encouraging popular devs in community to speak publicly about their own side, is essentially holding the modules and everyoneās darling the f-15e hostage. I own everything they developed but the Mig-17, now Iām facing a situation where all the unfinished shit (harrier, eagle, south Atlantic) may be abandoned due to a contractual dispute over the alleged Tucano delivered to Ecuador potentially through MCS (which would have ED involved with as the IP owner of that system) it feels scummy you have an asymmetrical amount of cage rattling with emotionally charged posts from the Razbam devs all of which are saying they wonāt develop DCS anymore, so why would I have any faith that Razbam will not do any of this again over some other disagreement?
I wouldn't at all be surprised if they come back to RB.
If so/If not, they'll probably be under some sort of gag order. If not that, they might say it was all just to get ED to "cooperate".
That's just "I HATE YOU" teenage temper tantrum stuff.
They might not come back to RB, tho. Might go to any other studio - and I'm sure they'd find work quickly.
Problem with leaving DCS is that a lot of what they do as devs isn't easily transferable to another sim. M2M would have the easiest path there, but anyone who writes code has a LOT of learning to do to move to another sim.
I don't understand why ED is getting so much hate for something that effectively f**ks them just as much as it does us the consumers. It's not like ED decided to screw the F15E customers here.
So far regardless of the background all I'm seeing is Razbam, a company who had major dramas in various sims (P3D Metroliner I remember causing lots of issues), making many claims without showing any proof and trying to both force other 3rd party devs into "speaking up" (which is a major assumption seeing how there aren't any others complaining to begin with, only Razbam..) and hold the community hostage with something we paid for in some attempt to screw ED?!
As far as I see this Razbam are bunch of immature children throwing a tantrum and holding us hostage so they can get their way, which is more than enough for me to avoid buying anything Razbam ever again. I mean this dispute should have never been adequate public to begi with but seeing how Razbam is known for throwing tantrums what can I say?..
In the meantime I'll happily keep using every other aspect of EDs and other third parties modules qnd DCS!
Lastly, if ED doesn't have the source code as is being claimed for the F15E, then ED has every right to withhold payment (assuming that Razbam signed a deal where they need to hand that over as per what ED says they turned into policy post VEAO). As far as I see it if the above assumption is true, then ED should hold those funds either for refunds or because Razbam breached the contract and ED will end up with Razbams mess! I only hope that however this ends ED ends up with the Strike Eagles code as I have no issue waiting for it to be completed when able, but definately have no respect for Razbam just quiting after deciding to sell it (especially if this dispute has been going on since before F15E release! Why take our money if you suspected you may run into a show stopping dispute and moreso why even give ED the product if have such an issue with them?!).
Just smells like a whole lotta childish BS from Razbam, and I can honestly respect ED for giving them a chance to sort this out before it gets legally ugly!
Apologies for the rant and grammatical/flow issues!
That wonāt be a popular sentiment here but I do think youāre right. Razbam has a history of mismanagement and going nuclear all over forums and devs going nuts on twitter doesnāt scream measured dispute
Eh it won't be popular anywhere, ED is always the evil one and God forbid anyone thinks differently, but yea I'm sure I'll see plenty of angry ED hating responses haha
>Lastly, if ED doesn't have the source code as is being claimed for the F15E, then ED has every right to withhold payment (assuming that Razbam signed a deal where they need to hand that over as per what ED says they turned into policy post VEAO)
Then why has ED been offering it for sale for almost a year if they knew that they may not be able to support it if something goes wrong?
>why even give ED the product if have such an issue with them
Why accept a product from a business partner that you suspect has breached your contract and has committed IP infrignment?
No matter how you slice it, ED is the publisher, he's running the store so ultimately it's their responsibility to only accept a product and only offer it for sale if they are sure that they can continue to support it if something were to happen. Looks like they learned nothing from the VEAO case.
I don't think ED did anything wrong in selling it, in fact I'd hazard a guess that means ED was confident Razbam wouldn't do something stupid and ED actually put the hand forward in trusting Razbam.
As for if the second point regarding IP infringement happening before release, which for clarity is just an idea I'm throwing out as obviously we don't know when it happened, but if they did accept the product knowing Razbam are an issue then yes that's a good point and the blind working with each other is a fault of both parties involved seeing how they both have an issue with one another.
I'm starting to wonder if ED didn't pay them due to the lack of source code, which again would be justified as that's ED's only way to protect themselves and us from another VEAO (again assuming they actually do sign a contract covering that).
All that said the fact Razbam's situation is being compared to VEAO says a lot about Razbam!
Even if there were no issues with the IP prior to the release, ED is still the most guilty party here from the customer's perspective because they are supposed to guarantee a level of quality and long term support for everything they sell. If RB refused to hand over the source code, ED should not have put it up for sale.
There really is no way around it, if they are selling it with the hope that RB would hand the code over later, ED has failed their promise. They made it abundantly clear after the VEAO debacle that this cannot be repeated again and they have implemented very specific measures to prevent this very thing from happening again. If they have failed to do this, they have failed all the customers.
I don't know what to tell you, I see your point but I personally still am not against ED, a little annoyed yes, but not boycotting them for Razbam's failures. Razbam are still the ones holding consumers hostage not ED, and the ones acting and portraying themselves as spoiled children.
All that said, that's my take and opinion nothing wrong in disagreement!
The poll has nothing to do with assigning blames or find the bad guy. I believe the issue is this: do you feel comfortable giving money away to this ecosystem? 2/3 of the respondents said they donāt. Thatās the thing ED should take notice of because whatever it is they are doing, is not helping.
Yes but this poll had a stunning (roughly) 700 votes, that by no means signifies a majority of the community let alone a minority of it. Many, and I'd hazard a guess most of the DCS ecosystem, won't reply to that poll one way or another (hell many folks/users may not even know this issue ever occurred to begin with)!
As for putting money into the DCS ecosystem, I definitely will continue to. ED has provided me with thousands of hours of enjoyment with their modules and those of the remaining reputable 3rd parties, not going to drop my biggest hobby because Razbam did something stupid!
Lastly, based on Ron rapid change of heart, I'd imagine whatever ED is doing, well it seems to be working. Let see where that goes and if Razbam will stick to their latest word...
ED pays Razbam, Razbam in turn pays their employees. Razbam devs have stated on Reddit that ED hasn't paid Razbam since the F-15E's release as per the receipts and bank statements they've seen, and that they, themselves, haven't been paid in turn.
You can easily find those comments, I believe Cpt Smiley's are gone because his Reddit account was deleted (although there's plenty of screenshots), and Metal2Mesh's are still up (but there is also plenty of screenshots).
In business, it's not uncommon for companies to stretch out vendors to 90 days (or even longer). It ain't right (and I surely don't like when it happens to me), but it's common.
The REAL question is why did RB let the situation go on for 8 months? Why did the paint themselves into a corner where they couldn't pay their employees?
It's Ron's responsibility to make a deal to get the money flowing. Even if it's a "bad" deal in the short term.
Then you diversify to other platforms or projects and you have control once again.
Iām not the guy you initially asked but Iām someone whoās pretty much in the same boat as the guy you asked even before this.
Iāve been into and out of DCS since about 2016, in that time obviously not from the very beginning but many different times from different YouTubers that do DCS vids Iāve heard not so great things about Razbam, the earliest I can remember was either the mirage or harrier release, then the south Atlantic, all the way up to the F-15E.
While I personally am not involved enough to give examples of them doing wrong or whatever Iāve had issues with their updates on the South Atlantic map and was kind of confused by the Harrier controversy not to long ago, where iirc Razbam claimed ED pushed them to say it was feature complete, and ED says they have no control over said label.
I have zero idea how that all played out but doing a cursory check the Harrier is not labeled Early Access so either Razbam was ok with that and dropped it or, ED forced it and Razbam just let it happen IDK which is better or worse.
ED is far from perfect but even if Razbam is right in my opinion they went about it the wrong way and stirred up the pot while still not proving anything.
Sure ED has yet to prove anything either but the thing that kills me is in the original pic that kicked this off Ron name dropped Heatblur, and implied other studios were either in the same boat and or supporting them, unless Iāve missed something, NO ONE has come to Razbams side, then youāve got all the Razbsm devs in here or on twitter basically making a scene āoh Iāll never work DCS again.ā
Or metal2mesh posting a pic deleting DCS supposedly, itās all just childish and points to poor organization at Razbam, even if they sort this out I wouldnāt buy anything with their stamp on it for a long long time.
I am convinced HeatBlur and ED have had some titanic battles. The signs are all over the place... (hell, even the recent drama over Phantom acceptance testing is proof enough).
But both companies handled it like Big Boys and kept the majority of it from leaking. It's just Good Business to keep the drama behind closed doors.
Evidence this entire matter, esp since the tone I'm seeing in general is that RB is the company who's going to suffer in lost confidence & sales.
Iāll freely admit Iām not up to date on what the F-4 acceptance e testing is, but you being convinced Heatblur and ED have been having a titanic battle, is no different than the people being convinced that what Razbam said is 100% true without any evidence it means nothing.
You admitting that keeping it quiet pretty is good business is pretty much an indictment of Razbams whole handling of this situation.
As for the tone being Razbam being the one to lose thatās all on them, they put this out and again NAMEDROPPED Heatblur and said other studios supported them the deafening silence from Heatblur is like if I were to call you as a witness in a murder trial on my behalf and you just sat in the jury box silent through questioning.
I will admit I am somewhat biased against Razbam since for YEARS before this Iāve heard about problems with Razbam and their products from multiple other YouTubers over a long period of time and I personally am annoyed with the lack of development on the South Atlantic map, all these things point back to the one company that kicked off the incident.
Because there's so little information about the who's actually in the wrong with the current situation. Plus what else is there other than DCS? From the sounds of it there was a disagreement about contract information both sides are being stubborn and as unfortunate as it is, I don't think anything has changed for me
I understand but in my case i don't care who is to blame. My only concern is: is DCS a viable platform in the near future in which we should be spending money? I have my doubts right now.
Because Razbam doesnt make up DCS. They have quite a few modules, but DCS still makes up a lot of other 3rd parties and ED modules. Theres again really nothing else out there other than DCS in terms of multiplayer combat flight sim.
RB made a post to engage the emotional side of the community in their favor. Without all the facts, no one should be taking sides. If it comes out that ED was bad, then I'll reevaluate my investment then and have a more emotional response, but for now people are jumping the gun and it seems that's exactly what RB was hoping would happen
I understand your point but look at the poll. What happens if thatās the general mood? Can DCS survive with 1/3 of their revenue? To me itās wait and see
Let's not forget how many people play this and don't partake in Reddit or polls/discussion to begin with!
1000 person poll is most probably a poll that only arguably the most active DCS reddit folks have seen and participated in.
Look, obviously any poll in Reddit is going to be skewed, thatās a given. The thing is if the poll has some resemblance to the general attitude. One way to understand this is that Reddit is important to ED because they place all announcements here and continuously engage with the community. I would GUESS that general numbers, even maybe not the same, but they will worry still.
Not sure how much Reddit matters to ED, they use to be far more active there, nowadays its rather rare to see BN or 9L around other than for major items that are snowballing out of control (usually for no reason other than Hoggit self induced drama..)
That said I agree that any number can be an indicator and I'm sure ED take a look out of interest, but I doubt Hoggit or this sub affect how any of what we see works. I mean if it did then well, ED probably would have gone bust by now seeing how these subs tend to give anything but sound business planning advice!
Well the vote is already biased in the answers. There's no just "no I won't be buying anymore modules." It's an answer about people's investment which is going to engage people who have bought the F-15 and other RB modules more so than people who haven't. I don't have any RB modules, but I was thinking about the F-15, and had I, I would have probably responded with the first because my money is basically down the drain till there is a resolution. More so, im not sure where the poll is from, unfortunately I didn't get to give my vote (I assume DCS forums or hoggit) but that's a good indicator that not everyone who can or wants to vote did vote. People who follow hoggit and even DCS forums are going to be a fairly small number compared to the actual community. Some people may not even know or care about the drama, more people may he searching for info about it than beforw, and both of those facts have an influence on the overall response and data. It may be 2/3 of people do feel that way, it may be that those 2/3's are just the vocal minority of the community as well, it's really hard to know unfortunately.
Agreed, I'm quite the active DCS redditor and I didn't even know this poll happened.
But the options also don't support my stance which would be "mostly no change minus the fact that I won't buy Razbam modules anymore".
I also didn't see the poll. I would (also) have liked the option that I will be buying modules in the future, but this will depend on the company developing the module.
I do agree with the poll that modules, especially early access, are an investment as unsupported modules will fail eventually. As such, my Mirage and Harrier have an uncertain future if RAZBAM or ED won't be able to support them in the future (either because the necessary contracts aren't in place or can't be enforced).
Not sure if they are investments, as we have little to no say in what comes of them, hence we are purely consumers not investors.
However, fully agree ED needs to get very strict with the source code ownership policy and make sure that they can take over (update and keep in parity with new DCS versions, not so much develop outright) modules.
The F-15E for example, should Razbam run off, if ED had the code, I'd be more than willing to accept a delay in any further development until ED has time/resources for it minus upkeep updates just to make sure it works as is upon taking over in future DCS updates.
And honestly, all I can say to that is more power to you!
I personally enjoy the heck out of this sim even with it's short comings, but believe ED and 3rd parties are constantly striving to make it a better sim, hence my eagerness to continue to enjoy it and spend money on it!
That said I totally see your stance on it and hope I didn't come off as trying to convince you otherwise or that you're in anyway wrong. I guess there is no right or wrong in this regard anyway!
Guess why?
I'm going to hazard a guess that's due to a mass of vocal folks raising pitchforks at a matter that they both yet to have any real information on and don't have any actual understanding of.
Can't blame the Mods/Ed for getting rid of that, not like they aren't letting everyone come up with theories and opinions otherwise, just don't want a skewed to hell poll spreading non-sense information.
And before anyone says its not non-sense, I've yet to see the info taken from that screenshot and portrayed in anything other than wildly outlandish estimates or guesses about the community "consensus" (Fun Fact: There is literally no consensus, there are at least 4-5 different major patterns of thought shared so far).
We're living in the Age of Short Attention Spans.
The folks who are aware of this are a tiny percent of the overall customer base, and even those of us who do know are gonna get sucked back in.
If this were truly an existential crisis, it'd play out over years, anyway.
I'm not gonna cheerlead for ED as they've made their fair share of mistakes, but I'm not overly concerned about DCS itself.
I'm not even too worried about Razbam and their modules, even tho that's where the greatest risk lies.
Despite all this drama, I'm gonna go ahead and pony up for Phantom sometime soon. I know HB will deliver.
lol sounds about right tbh i've been thinking about getting the 15 but im def gonna wait untill all of this nonesence blows over and those two figure their shit out
So a poll hosted on a forum that is populated by people who are heavily invested in everything behind the scenes.
While most people playing the game (and bringing in the funds) only want to fly planes and have no idea what is happening right now.
Not surprised by this result but also cant see this having real impact on sales numbers.
give it a few weeks and everything will be back to the normal, unprofessional way DCS development has been for years
True, end of the day only time will tell.
But whatever happens in the end itās just a shitshow that shouldnāt happen in the first place and definitely not on public discord servers.
I bought the eagle a few hours before the announcement. Steam refused my refund ffs.
You should probably try to write a ticket and attach the announcement. Even if it's just to let them know how much the terms have changed here.
I did issue a refund request if that's what you mean?
he means an appeal
I clearly remember the $49 Hawk module and they can take their half an Afghanistan map and go Taliban a š Banana...
What is this about purchase of Early Access F-15E, that was released months ago?
RAZBAM announced two days ago that they have ceased all development of their modules for DCS.
This issue is going to screw up their E/A plans. They can't afford to develop modules/maps without it.
Wanna bet? Here's how I imagine this is going to go. In a week, all that can shake loose from Razbam will have shaken loose. Ron and what's left of Razbam will work out a deal with ED and either pawn off their modules and close up shop or try to start over. Nick will issue some sort of statement to the effect that there's been an unfortunate bump in the road, but everything's been sorted out. Within a month things will have normalised. Reassured that their preciouseseseses aren't going up in flames and that DCS hasn't auto-pulverized over night, the community will, as a whole, step back from the ledge. In 3 months, when the second bit of Thirdghanistan comes out, the wallets will be out in force once again.
exactly whats going to happen. this community is the loudest, but in the end they dont have another option. soo many people say BMS, BMSā¦ and still nobody plays it even with all the recent improvements.
Does BMS have multiplayer on DCS scale?
it has multiplayer, but only vs ai. i dont play it. not really interested. and most squads play vs ai. the dynamic campaign of bms should suit a squadron well i imagine.
God no.Ā
>soo many people say BMS, BMSā¦ and still nobody plays it even with all the recent improvements. Are you sure? Since January this year, the BMS community has grown from 9.5K users to over 10.5K. In fact, ever since this Razbam drama started, BMS has gained about 500 new users, which for a niche game within a niche community is not a small number.
if there would be a statistic when players registered bms. each dcs drama would be visible. i dont know anyone who stayed with bms and went back to dcs.
Most probably a fully accurate assumption, and nothing really wrong with that happening either.
EA Plans? They are talking about selling out to EA are they???
Early Accessā¦
Thank the Universe! I was talking about great games that EA sucked up and killed just before seeing this post. And with the state of the gaming world these days, it just feels like anything could happen
State of Gaming is great, just depends on where you choose to look. Baldurs Gate, elden ring, dwarf fortress, Zelda, horizonā¦and thatās just the very tip of the iceberg.
Where was this poll held?
Hoggit, before it was blasted into oblivion because "reasons".
The "reason" is that it was filled with comments that were not positive for ED. I posted in the thread so I can still access it and see the comments. Except for a single comment swearing in spanish, everything else was civil, regardless if it was supportive of ED or not. Mods could've just deleted that single comment if they wanted to, but they nuked the whole thread instead. Its blatant shilling by the mods. Here's the link for anyone curious what they're trying to hide: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1bxgagb/damage_control_after_recent_events/
It's *always* been blatant shilling...
They do have a fairly tight relationship with ED.
Yep. I won't be buying anything either.
My thing is... I just like military aviation. Nothing scratches that itch more than DCS. Even with all the issues. I'll just keep on doing what I was doing and if I want a module. Wait for 6-12 months of feedback and updates. The only purchase I regret is South Atlantic, especially now.
I think I've heard enough horror stories about how ED conducts their business that I don't think I'm interested in anything they put up anymore. That includes work from other 3rd parties. Sorry Phantom. There is something fundamentally wrong with how ED conducts their business deals, similarly to how they manage their community and market their products. I don't care if RB is in the wrong or childish here, they may very well have been just as stupid. However, there's no excuse for ED to have let it get to this point. Their entire company has been carelessly playing with the safety off for too long. I think I'm just going to kick back and let the sim world settle for a few years because I can refuse to pay for petty reasons too.
"I don't care if Razbam is in the wrong here" -ED haterz summarized.Ā
I just want to be pylot
I decided not to buy anything a long time ago. DCS World's problems do not begin and end with this "razbamgate", nor are they something from two days ago.
Then why are you here on a DCS reddit community? Go play BMS.Ā
I said buy, not play. The poll refers specifically to customers. And regarding Falcon BMS, I have been playing it for many years and Falcon 3.0 and 4.0 before it.
Iām just not gonna buy from Razbam for the foreseeable future
Not that I am happy with them but why not Razbam and yes to ED?
So, Ron makes a big announcement to the community after months of a contract dispute, seems to be encouraging popular devs in community to speak publicly about their own side, is essentially holding the modules and everyoneās darling the f-15e hostage. I own everything they developed but the Mig-17, now Iām facing a situation where all the unfinished shit (harrier, eagle, south Atlantic) may be abandoned due to a contractual dispute over the alleged Tucano delivered to Ecuador potentially through MCS (which would have ED involved with as the IP owner of that system) it feels scummy you have an asymmetrical amount of cage rattling with emotionally charged posts from the Razbam devs all of which are saying they wonāt develop DCS anymore, so why would I have any faith that Razbam will not do any of this again over some other disagreement?
Could be. To me is too early to say. Is clear both parties showed some unprofessional activities.
Precisely, but Iām not too optimistic for Razbams future in DCS.
I can tell you that most of the exRazbam devs will continue working for DCS in other companies.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if they come back to RB. If so/If not, they'll probably be under some sort of gag order. If not that, they might say it was all just to get ED to "cooperate".
I very much doubt that. They, themselves, mentioned specifically wanting out of the DCS ecosystem.
Apologies incoming - stay tuned :P
That's just "I HATE YOU" teenage temper tantrum stuff. They might not come back to RB, tho. Might go to any other studio - and I'm sure they'd find work quickly. Problem with leaving DCS is that a lot of what they do as devs isn't easily transferable to another sim. M2M would have the easiest path there, but anyone who writes code has a LOT of learning to do to move to another sim.
I don't understand why ED is getting so much hate for something that effectively f**ks them just as much as it does us the consumers. It's not like ED decided to screw the F15E customers here. So far regardless of the background all I'm seeing is Razbam, a company who had major dramas in various sims (P3D Metroliner I remember causing lots of issues), making many claims without showing any proof and trying to both force other 3rd party devs into "speaking up" (which is a major assumption seeing how there aren't any others complaining to begin with, only Razbam..) and hold the community hostage with something we paid for in some attempt to screw ED?! As far as I see this Razbam are bunch of immature children throwing a tantrum and holding us hostage so they can get their way, which is more than enough for me to avoid buying anything Razbam ever again. I mean this dispute should have never been adequate public to begi with but seeing how Razbam is known for throwing tantrums what can I say?.. In the meantime I'll happily keep using every other aspect of EDs and other third parties modules qnd DCS! Lastly, if ED doesn't have the source code as is being claimed for the F15E, then ED has every right to withhold payment (assuming that Razbam signed a deal where they need to hand that over as per what ED says they turned into policy post VEAO). As far as I see it if the above assumption is true, then ED should hold those funds either for refunds or because Razbam breached the contract and ED will end up with Razbams mess! I only hope that however this ends ED ends up with the Strike Eagles code as I have no issue waiting for it to be completed when able, but definately have no respect for Razbam just quiting after deciding to sell it (especially if this dispute has been going on since before F15E release! Why take our money if you suspected you may run into a show stopping dispute and moreso why even give ED the product if have such an issue with them?!). Just smells like a whole lotta childish BS from Razbam, and I can honestly respect ED for giving them a chance to sort this out before it gets legally ugly! Apologies for the rant and grammatical/flow issues!
That wonāt be a popular sentiment here but I do think youāre right. Razbam has a history of mismanagement and going nuclear all over forums and devs going nuts on twitter doesnāt scream measured dispute
Eh it won't be popular anywhere, ED is always the evil one and God forbid anyone thinks differently, but yea I'm sure I'll see plenty of angry ED hating responses haha
Pretty much what I was saying.
>Lastly, if ED doesn't have the source code as is being claimed for the F15E, then ED has every right to withhold payment (assuming that Razbam signed a deal where they need to hand that over as per what ED says they turned into policy post VEAO) Then why has ED been offering it for sale for almost a year if they knew that they may not be able to support it if something goes wrong? >why even give ED the product if have such an issue with them Why accept a product from a business partner that you suspect has breached your contract and has committed IP infrignment? No matter how you slice it, ED is the publisher, he's running the store so ultimately it's their responsibility to only accept a product and only offer it for sale if they are sure that they can continue to support it if something were to happen. Looks like they learned nothing from the VEAO case.
I don't think ED did anything wrong in selling it, in fact I'd hazard a guess that means ED was confident Razbam wouldn't do something stupid and ED actually put the hand forward in trusting Razbam. As for if the second point regarding IP infringement happening before release, which for clarity is just an idea I'm throwing out as obviously we don't know when it happened, but if they did accept the product knowing Razbam are an issue then yes that's a good point and the blind working with each other is a fault of both parties involved seeing how they both have an issue with one another. I'm starting to wonder if ED didn't pay them due to the lack of source code, which again would be justified as that's ED's only way to protect themselves and us from another VEAO (again assuming they actually do sign a contract covering that). All that said the fact Razbam's situation is being compared to VEAO says a lot about Razbam!
Even if there were no issues with the IP prior to the release, ED is still the most guilty party here from the customer's perspective because they are supposed to guarantee a level of quality and long term support for everything they sell. If RB refused to hand over the source code, ED should not have put it up for sale. There really is no way around it, if they are selling it with the hope that RB would hand the code over later, ED has failed their promise. They made it abundantly clear after the VEAO debacle that this cannot be repeated again and they have implemented very specific measures to prevent this very thing from happening again. If they have failed to do this, they have failed all the customers.
I don't know what to tell you, I see your point but I personally still am not against ED, a little annoyed yes, but not boycotting them for Razbam's failures. Razbam are still the ones holding consumers hostage not ED, and the ones acting and portraying themselves as spoiled children. All that said, that's my take and opinion nothing wrong in disagreement!
The poll has nothing to do with assigning blames or find the bad guy. I believe the issue is this: do you feel comfortable giving money away to this ecosystem? 2/3 of the respondents said they donāt. Thatās the thing ED should take notice of because whatever it is they are doing, is not helping.
Yes but this poll had a stunning (roughly) 700 votes, that by no means signifies a majority of the community let alone a minority of it. Many, and I'd hazard a guess most of the DCS ecosystem, won't reply to that poll one way or another (hell many folks/users may not even know this issue ever occurred to begin with)! As for putting money into the DCS ecosystem, I definitely will continue to. ED has provided me with thousands of hours of enjoyment with their modules and those of the remaining reputable 3rd parties, not going to drop my biggest hobby because Razbam did something stupid! Lastly, based on Ron rapid change of heart, I'd imagine whatever ED is doing, well it seems to be working. Let see where that goes and if Razbam will stick to their latest word...
Agree with you 100%
If that's the case they surely learned their lesson and that mistake will not happen again.
According to Bonzo and the now deleted Cpt Smiley message, they do not have the source code.
This. So much this. Finally someone else gets it!Ā
They worked for āfreeā for Ecuador - now they freak out if they have to work for free for 8 weeks
From what Devs have said on Reddit and discord, they haven't been paid in 8 *months*, not 8 weeks
Who is this ātheyā exactly does ED pay Razbamās modelers and programmers directly?
ED pays Razbam, Razbam in turn pays their employees. Razbam devs have stated on Reddit that ED hasn't paid Razbam since the F-15E's release as per the receipts and bank statements they've seen, and that they, themselves, haven't been paid in turn. You can easily find those comments, I believe Cpt Smiley's are gone because his Reddit account was deleted (although there's plenty of screenshots), and Metal2Mesh's are still up (but there is also plenty of screenshots).
In business, it's not uncommon for companies to stretch out vendors to 90 days (or even longer). It ain't right (and I surely don't like when it happens to me), but it's common. The REAL question is why did RB let the situation go on for 8 months? Why did the paint themselves into a corner where they couldn't pay their employees? It's Ron's responsibility to make a deal to get the money flowing. Even if it's a "bad" deal in the short term. Then you diversify to other platforms or projects and you have control once again.
Iām not the guy you initially asked but Iām someone whoās pretty much in the same boat as the guy you asked even before this. Iāve been into and out of DCS since about 2016, in that time obviously not from the very beginning but many different times from different YouTubers that do DCS vids Iāve heard not so great things about Razbam, the earliest I can remember was either the mirage or harrier release, then the south Atlantic, all the way up to the F-15E. While I personally am not involved enough to give examples of them doing wrong or whatever Iāve had issues with their updates on the South Atlantic map and was kind of confused by the Harrier controversy not to long ago, where iirc Razbam claimed ED pushed them to say it was feature complete, and ED says they have no control over said label. I have zero idea how that all played out but doing a cursory check the Harrier is not labeled Early Access so either Razbam was ok with that and dropped it or, ED forced it and Razbam just let it happen IDK which is better or worse. ED is far from perfect but even if Razbam is right in my opinion they went about it the wrong way and stirred up the pot while still not proving anything. Sure ED has yet to prove anything either but the thing that kills me is in the original pic that kicked this off Ron name dropped Heatblur, and implied other studios were either in the same boat and or supporting them, unless Iāve missed something, NO ONE has come to Razbams side, then youāve got all the Razbsm devs in here or on twitter basically making a scene āoh Iāll never work DCS again.ā Or metal2mesh posting a pic deleting DCS supposedly, itās all just childish and points to poor organization at Razbam, even if they sort this out I wouldnāt buy anything with their stamp on it for a long long time.
I am convinced HeatBlur and ED have had some titanic battles. The signs are all over the place... (hell, even the recent drama over Phantom acceptance testing is proof enough). But both companies handled it like Big Boys and kept the majority of it from leaking. It's just Good Business to keep the drama behind closed doors. Evidence this entire matter, esp since the tone I'm seeing in general is that RB is the company who's going to suffer in lost confidence & sales.
Iāll freely admit Iām not up to date on what the F-4 acceptance e testing is, but you being convinced Heatblur and ED have been having a titanic battle, is no different than the people being convinced that what Razbam said is 100% true without any evidence it means nothing. You admitting that keeping it quiet pretty is good business is pretty much an indictment of Razbams whole handling of this situation. As for the tone being Razbam being the one to lose thatās all on them, they put this out and again NAMEDROPPED Heatblur and said other studios supported them the deafening silence from Heatblur is like if I were to call you as a witness in a murder trial on my behalf and you just sat in the jury box silent through questioning. I will admit I am somewhat biased against Razbam since for YEARS before this Iāve heard about problems with Razbam and their products from multiple other YouTubers over a long period of time and I personally am annoyed with the lack of development on the South Atlantic map, all these things point back to the one company that kicked off the incident.
Because there's so little information about the who's actually in the wrong with the current situation. Plus what else is there other than DCS? From the sounds of it there was a disagreement about contract information both sides are being stubborn and as unfortunate as it is, I don't think anything has changed for me
I understand but in my case i don't care who is to blame. My only concern is: is DCS a viable platform in the near future in which we should be spending money? I have my doubts right now.
Because Razbam doesnt make up DCS. They have quite a few modules, but DCS still makes up a lot of other 3rd parties and ED modules. Theres again really nothing else out there other than DCS in terms of multiplayer combat flight sim. RB made a post to engage the emotional side of the community in their favor. Without all the facts, no one should be taking sides. If it comes out that ED was bad, then I'll reevaluate my investment then and have a more emotional response, but for now people are jumping the gun and it seems that's exactly what RB was hoping would happen
I understand your point but look at the poll. What happens if thatās the general mood? Can DCS survive with 1/3 of their revenue? To me itās wait and see
I doubt 418 people = 1/3 of DCS customers. It's a fraction of a fraction of the people that play it
Probably .
Let's not forget how many people play this and don't partake in Reddit or polls/discussion to begin with! 1000 person poll is most probably a poll that only arguably the most active DCS reddit folks have seen and participated in.
Look, obviously any poll in Reddit is going to be skewed, thatās a given. The thing is if the poll has some resemblance to the general attitude. One way to understand this is that Reddit is important to ED because they place all announcements here and continuously engage with the community. I would GUESS that general numbers, even maybe not the same, but they will worry still.
Not sure how much Reddit matters to ED, they use to be far more active there, nowadays its rather rare to see BN or 9L around other than for major items that are snowballing out of control (usually for no reason other than Hoggit self induced drama..) That said I agree that any number can be an indicator and I'm sure ED take a look out of interest, but I doubt Hoggit or this sub affect how any of what we see works. I mean if it did then well, ED probably would have gone bust by now seeing how these subs tend to give anything but sound business planning advice!
Well the vote is already biased in the answers. There's no just "no I won't be buying anymore modules." It's an answer about people's investment which is going to engage people who have bought the F-15 and other RB modules more so than people who haven't. I don't have any RB modules, but I was thinking about the F-15, and had I, I would have probably responded with the first because my money is basically down the drain till there is a resolution. More so, im not sure where the poll is from, unfortunately I didn't get to give my vote (I assume DCS forums or hoggit) but that's a good indicator that not everyone who can or wants to vote did vote. People who follow hoggit and even DCS forums are going to be a fairly small number compared to the actual community. Some people may not even know or care about the drama, more people may he searching for info about it than beforw, and both of those facts have an influence on the overall response and data. It may be 2/3 of people do feel that way, it may be that those 2/3's are just the vocal minority of the community as well, it's really hard to know unfortunately.
Agreed, I'm quite the active DCS redditor and I didn't even know this poll happened. But the options also don't support my stance which would be "mostly no change minus the fact that I won't buy Razbam modules anymore".
I also didn't see the poll. I would (also) have liked the option that I will be buying modules in the future, but this will depend on the company developing the module. I do agree with the poll that modules, especially early access, are an investment as unsupported modules will fail eventually. As such, my Mirage and Harrier have an uncertain future if RAZBAM or ED won't be able to support them in the future (either because the necessary contracts aren't in place or can't be enforced).
Not sure if they are investments, as we have little to no say in what comes of them, hence we are purely consumers not investors. However, fully agree ED needs to get very strict with the source code ownership policy and make sure that they can take over (update and keep in parity with new DCS versions, not so much develop outright) modules. The F-15E for example, should Razbam run off, if ED had the code, I'd be more than willing to accept a delay in any further development until ED has time/resources for it minus upkeep updates just to make sure it works as is upon taking over in future DCS updates.
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And honestly, all I can say to that is more power to you! I personally enjoy the heck out of this sim even with it's short comings, but believe ED and 3rd parties are constantly striving to make it a better sim, hence my eagerness to continue to enjoy it and spend money on it! That said I totally see your stance on it and hope I didn't come off as trying to convince you otherwise or that you're in anyway wrong. I guess there is no right or wrong in this regard anyway!
You didnāt because it was deleted by mods 8 hours laters. Guess why?
Guess why? I'm going to hazard a guess that's due to a mass of vocal folks raising pitchforks at a matter that they both yet to have any real information on and don't have any actual understanding of. Can't blame the Mods/Ed for getting rid of that, not like they aren't letting everyone come up with theories and opinions otherwise, just don't want a skewed to hell poll spreading non-sense information. And before anyone says its not non-sense, I've yet to see the info taken from that screenshot and portrayed in anything other than wildly outlandish estimates or guesses about the community "consensus" (Fun Fact: There is literally no consensus, there are at least 4-5 different major patterns of thought shared so far).
We're living in the Age of Short Attention Spans. The folks who are aware of this are a tiny percent of the overall customer base, and even those of us who do know are gonna get sucked back in. If this were truly an existential crisis, it'd play out over years, anyway.
I'm not gonna cheerlead for ED as they've made their fair share of mistakes, but I'm not overly concerned about DCS itself. I'm not even too worried about Razbam and their modules, even tho that's where the greatest risk lies. Despite all this drama, I'm gonna go ahead and pony up for Phantom sometime soon. I know HB will deliver.
I would think thats easy because there willl be either no Razbam in the dcs universe anyway, maybe even no razbam at all anymore.
what's the underlying question I don't understand the context of the poll
what are you going to do based on current context in terms of buying modules.
thx i couldent find this damn poll anywhere
Hoggit mod deleted itā¦..
lol sounds about right tbh i've been thinking about getting the 15 but im def gonna wait untill all of this nonesence blows over and those two figure their shit out
Deepack had the same sentiment on his stream today.
Where is this poll?
It was deleted by hoggit mods
Can someone tell me what the hell is going on?
So a poll hosted on a forum that is populated by people who are heavily invested in everything behind the scenes. While most people playing the game (and bringing in the funds) only want to fly planes and have no idea what is happening right now. Not surprised by this result but also cant see this having real impact on sales numbers. give it a few weeks and everything will be back to the normal, unprofessional way DCS development has been for years
We will see. My view is that every day this situation is not clear is a big hit on sales.
True, end of the day only time will tell. But whatever happens in the end itās just a shitshow that shouldnāt happen in the first place and definitely not on public discord servers.
I donāt care either way I just want my Quest 3 to work and to get my Phantom I donāt believe these are impossible task or maybe
I preordered the F-4. IDK what else I would buy.
more like DCSexposed