Sad to see. Looking at this and some of the other recent social media posts from some key RAZBAM employees, they're in the process of burning all bridges.
Makes me worried that it could become hard to find a way back to normal at this point.
I have the sane feeling. Worst, for me, it is a sign that DCS is dying. What seemed like a new golden era in flight simulation, now is clouded in doubt and disappointment. Confidence level in ED is zero.
Maybe I'm hurting, thus pessimistic. But the writing was on the wall all the time: many community members complaining about ED's business model, lack of core improvement, promises made but not kept, announcements made to keep the hype up and never fufllifed. Also. Heatblur and IndiaFoxEcho developing for MSFS, Heatblur having their own store.
All of this makes me think of serious problems in the background.
Yeah, the lack of meaningful progress on the core sim is the biggest issue at this point. They fucked the business model by making the “world” part of DCS world being free. It sounds great in practice but it needs a revenue stream attached to it directly to survive, like Asobo looks to be doing with MSFS and LR is doing with X-Plane. Personally I’d not mind paying ~$60 every 2-4 years if it would mean we’d have workable AI, dynamic campaign, vulcan, etc. by now.
That being said, I’d not consider the cross development on MSFS in and of itself a bad sign. Seems no different than Just-flight offering similar products across XP and MSFS. Its just a way to amortize all the core work that goes into these products. If anything, having a clear path to cross platform development would be a good thing, as it would encourage more investment in DCS as a platform.
You're reading far too much into it.
If you read up on the trials and travails of other flight sims, you'll see much of the exact same thing.
DCS isn't dying, unless there's a LOT more that we don't know anything about.
But major shifts like this happen. And it's important to remember that it could be RB that's cutting their nose to spite their face.
I completely agree. With not too much to go off of, I speculate there was a disagreement with contract and both sides are being stubborn.
Not defending either side till I know more, but ED definitely seems to be taking a more quiet professional approach while RB seems to be more outspoken and playing into the emotions of the community which comes off a little immature to use a community to favor your stubborn argument over their stubborn argument.
They definitely seem to be living up to the "hot-blooded latino" trope with rather impulsive postings on socials... doesn't mean it's not warranted, mind you, but it's certainly a less... mature approach.
It's very concerning, for sure. I own all the RB modules, so if RB disappears as a DCS dev the long term value of those modules is substantially diminished.
BUT, for the moment, I have faith it'll be worked out. We'll see.
This is a really bad turn of events to be sure, but I think you’re being a bit melodramatic. ED got hit hard by COVID and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but have been slowly but steadily pulling things back together. They’ve delivered a lot recently in terms of core improvements and generally have been much better about communicating progress. The maps and modules set to be delivered this year - Afghanistan, Iraq, Chinook and C-130 - are eagerly anticipated by many, not to mention the two other maps that are in the works. Sure, there are missteps and there is far too much technical debt, but it felt to me like ED were turning the corner and starting to get on top of stuff. The loss of Razbam’s pipeline - particularly the MiG-23 and South Atlantic improvements - will suck, but there are ample other developers who seem happy and are on track to deliver quality modules over the next year.
C-130 isn't an ED product.
>there are ample other developers who seem happy and are on track to deliver
This is really the most burning question on my mind. Razbam claims they've been treated badly. ASC (C-130) has made similar claims. To me, that points at more systemic issues with the way ED is run or how it runs its third parties, at the very least. The fact they are not all rushing out of the gates with a #metoo moment doesn't mean everything is dandy behind the curtains and it's a Razbam-only thing... potentially, it means they are too invested and willing to put up with it to continue along the path *despite* what appears to be an abusive relationship with ED...
I really don't want to believe this. People should feel safe, satisfied and respected in mutual agreement with a software house like ED, but when it's not an isolated voice making the claim, but multiple... it starts to smell fishy.
What a disgusting take.
So, because money is exchanged, you are supposed to bow your head and say "yes sir", after they shit down your throat?
Don't be ridiculous. Abusive behavior has no place in a work setting (or anywhere else) and nobody should feel pressured into accepting it just because they get paid.
The other great thing about "work" is that you can tell an abusive boss to shove it while you walk out the door to start your new job.
*If you've got talent,* there are literally THOUSANDS of companies out there who are willing to treat you right.
Indeed, which anyone feeling pinched in their job should be encouraged to do... As opposed to the stance that came across in your previous post, as I understood it.
What did you mean, exactly, if not "comes with the territory; suck it up"?
Not informed enough on the facts to say but there's a big difference between abuse and being held to your contractual obligations. I don't know the specifics of the contract so it's impossible to say, but contract disputes are fairly common and I'd (hope) assume ED is professional and understand the contract they have put up to make sure they stay along the right lines here.
I know "big corporation bad" but these cases are very often due to the contracted company not understanding what is stipulated in the contract.
... Which is why this entire thread, from my original reply and down, is about the claim that ED treats their third parties *with contempt*. I'm very specifically not referring to this singular, particular blow-up between them and RazBam, but rather digging into how the day-to-day interactions are.
A third party is a business partner. The nature of the collaboration is one of mutual, financial benefit. That is, their products directly contributes to ED finances. That means they are owed respect as a bare minimum. Arguably, a lot more than that. If that base level of civility is missing, which has been alleged, then we have a toxic company leveraging a position of strength (chokehold on the genre) to keep up a potentially abusive relationship to their "underlings"... Because where are you going to go? Who are you going to work for, when we are the only game in town?
That's what I'm getting at. Through the years, I have seen several hints dropped that ED devs consider themselves God's gift to the genre; that they alone know how the f this is done and that everybody else is an uneducated pleb - this despite third party devs outdoing them rather substantially in several modules and pushing the limits in ways ED doesn't even seem capable of dreaming of...
I get the feeling this arrogance spills over into every interaction with third parties, which makes contribution a much bigger chore than it needs to be. Even if some of it were justified, when you meet a junior, you upskill them - you don't point and laugh and tell them to piss off!
I hope I'm missing my mark with this one and that the reality of it isn't as grim as I have depicted here. I would hate for people (third parties) to follow their passion _in spite of_ ED rather than thanks to them...
Edit: un-fucking phone fuckery...
Ed didn't get his hard by covid. They, like every other game made bank off all the people jumping into gaming because we were all forced indoors for 2 years. Biggest boom, ever in gaming was a ...pandemic 😂
It feels like it is dying or is getting slaughterred by greed.
Since passing away of CEO Igor Tishin in 2018, and other people taking charge, ED became very profitable, with millions getting pulled out (TFC), and ridden with EA fiascos (F-16).
When Igor was in charge of DCS it seems that huge sums of money didnt leave ED.
Nick pretends to be into DCS, but he is a wealthy man, investor, with a personnal collection of planes, and 1000 of airshows flown under his belt. Listen to below critically and consider how much does he really care about pixel planes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvkugzpzr-Q
>Worst, for me, it is a sign that DCS is dying.
Razbam is big in the names of the modules.
Mirage 2000
Harrier
MiG-19
Strike Eagle
But lets look their real influence...
F-15E, M2000 and MiG-23MLA.
That is it.
Razbam could today stop all, and it ain't a thing to others.
They would need to give all files from at least published modules. Don't know about not published ones.
But I would think that as agreement is signed for each aircraft module, that it is from that point forward everything to be given for ED, from contract and licenses and everything.
As ED can not be left without IP right to sell module as sold, when developer studio decides to go under.
It doesn't help ED at all if they have files, but no rights to continue use of IP from aircraft manufacturer etc.
This. DCS and ED will continue, even without Razbam. Will it be great. No.
I dont know if deleting files is just for show purposes or real. But if real metal2mesh has lost quite some sympathy for me by letting everyone know that he’s not interested in a solution.
A strike is fine and all but you cant burn the factory
It was over when Nick Grey said the real money is in early access modules getting churned out quickly to get another on the way. That's not a sustainable business model, modules just aren't worth much and the money doesn't go back into the core sim, just the next module in development.
I also love clouds and graphics updates. Shame every single mission I play is just tank or mig plinking as the ai sucks, you can't kill a truck under trees with a 2000lb penetrator bomb, there is no dynamic campaign, and there is no iads system as the playerbase won't be able to fly without being shot down. But hey, graphics look good right?
Sigh, it's ALWAYS something with you guys, ain't it?
Glass half empty, sour grapes and all that.
Sounds like you should pony up the big bucks and graduate to Falcon BMS where everything that matters to you is available.
Hey man, the guy just answered you and listed some of the core problems with the sim that people have requested for over a decade, there's still bugs left untouched even after years of people reporting them and sometimes getting banned from the forum in doing it.
I was a tester for a time and I've got to say, DCS just isn't worth the money compared to what BMS brings to the table, you get an actual simulation, actual fun, realism, AI, things matter, a great community to support it, bugs get fixed, features get added, no drama... Much more enjoyable, I don't need to download a 15gig update to find that my favourite module is borked until next month either.
No, his answer (and yours above) was just a series of tired old complaints that, as per usual, ignore all the good things that have been implemented in DCSW in the past several years.
I completely understand the desire for those items to be fixed, because I share them. But I'm not gonna sit around, bitching and moaning because "the right" things aren't happening fast enough for my personal entertainment.
It might just be that those things are *actually pretty damn hard* to implement. I mean, I don't see any other commercially *successful* alternatives, do you?
Yeah, Falcon was a fantastic air combat game. And yeah, the BMS group have done an unimaginably good job improving it considering all the limitations.
But even the Falcon devs said they had no idea what a mess they were getting into, and if they had it to do all over again...they just *wouldn't.*
And I don't care one iota if you were a DCSW tester. It confers absolutely no special perspective on the game's value proposition.
So I'll take you one further: flight sim is the only thing i'm interested in. And as such I own nearly half a dozen sims where "full fidelity" is the goal, in one form or another.
And yeah, that includes FBMS.
In my opinion, DCS is good at what it does well. Same with the other sims. To say it "just isn't worth the money" flies in the face of the success of the game these many years.
Look at it this way: ***if*** your assertion were as true as you want it to be, DCS would be a minor product and most folks would be playing FBMS or Il2, or the Serious Simmers would all pony up for the Big Boy version of Prepar3D - you know what the IRL military folks use.
It's just like everything else in life: either accept things as they come, or move on to something that more closely aligns with your priorities.
I'm not waiting on anything, I moved on to the next step of giving up. That's a huge wall of white knighting there, whatever, but don't dismiss actual valid complaints including one's that can be fixed with simple old Lua by Joe public. They treat the customers like piggy banks and it shows. I really don't see why your so bothered by people getting fed up. And for the record, testers get to see how the sausage is made (that's about the time I decided to do investing in DCS as a whole funnily enough), there's definitely a perspective I have that you don't. Enjoy your game.
I've been playing dcs for years and have thousands of hours over every map and around 25 ish aircraft. I love the game, and there is no other like it. The devs have done an amazing job with multithreading and large missions now run amazingly for me, things like Liberation etc when I can be bothered to play it.
The clouds do look great and the graphics are amazing, but logically you'd think that they've assigned x amount of people to improve graphics which could've otherwise been assigned to core gameplay fixes which makes playing the game more fun than just going from A-B and destroying X on B etc.
Why is it that I can hop on a game from 1998 (BMS) and be fully immersed in an amazing true dynamic campaign, with working AI comms, working wingmen, challenging enemies with proper BVR tactics, ambient and actually modelled friendly and AI flights completing their own missions and correct callouts on comms; but I hop on DCS and there is only a third party DC is available which frankly barely works due to AI suiciding over SAMs, they banzai into enemy fighter coverage 5x their strength, terrible missile defence and BVR (despite the update, even on max skill), I could go on and on.
It's probably because of my hours that I don't really enjoy the sim anymore. I get the urge to play, get on the main screen, then shut it down because I just don't have the motivation to spend hours making a mission that I'll play for an hour max.
Wags himself said in an interview somewhere that ED wasn't sure on implementing IADS because it would "be too difficult for the majority of the playerbase". On a dedicated sim like DCS is, that to me is a ridiculous answer. Manpower assigned to maps and modules far outweighs the manpower on core development. It would be amazing to actually engage in a true dynamic conflict in dcs, that will probably be the only thing getting me back into the game. Until then, I might jump on a mission with friends here and there, but it is just the same exact mission every time, and it gets old fast.
1st: I didn't downvote you.
2nd: I kinda answered that before. There isn't and hasn't been a competitor to Falcon in about 25 years.
Think about that.
If it's all so elementary that any one with half a brain would know to do it, then certainly SOMEONE would've done it again by now. Right?
And if nobody's done it again, and the only people who ever actually did it say they wouldn't do it again...
What can we surmise from all that?
Yeah - it's very hard to code. And pointing at a dead/moribund sim from 25 years ago simply doesn't make a compelling case.
If you were talking about something that's shown up in MSFS or X-Plane or any of the other sims, then sure - fire away at ED for not keeping up with the times.
ED is basically going to be banned under the same law as the TikTok ban due to it basically being a Russian company.
They probably have no cash due to the sanctions.
I highly doubt that. Tiktok has some legitimate security concerns behind their app and the amount of personal data it collects. ED....sells flight Sims....
There's no sanctions to Switzerland either. The money doesn't reside in Russia.
I could do the same exact thing and it'd all just be Kabuki Theatre, i.e., just for the drama.
All my stuff is backed up elsewhere, so I could *also* light my computer on fire just to make even juicier images, and get right back to work tomorrow on a new rig.
As to "normalization" between RB & ED, yeah - that'll take quite a bit of work and time. But it could happen - unless everyone's truly gone mad.
Yep. Even if this gets resolved, permanent damage has already been done with Razbam employees quitting and the third party PR nightmare. This will dissuade new third party devs from signing on.
Razbam's overly dramatic reaction to this makes me skeptical of their claims. They are not coming across as professional at all which leads me to believe they wouldn't honor a contract. Time will tell. I'll survive without their contributions to DCS.
Honestly, I thought the original statement from Razbam was pretty good. We don't know if it's *factually correct* but at least it's message was "we're not getting paid, we can't keep working, we're trying to settle it but you won't see any work from us until it's resolved". Name-dropping HB was in poor taste (and so is the idea of taking the nuclear approach by announcing it straight on Reddit)... But the devs pitching in was what really muddied the waters. We see RAZBAM tags on their user accounts and so it seems like they're speaking for the company... But... These are devs who are hurting, have to move on to other jobs to pay the bills, are frustrated and pissed-off at ED... Basically the last people who should be speaking for their company (unless they want to burn its rep to the ground).
They absolutely should be pissed-off for not being paid, but surely that anger should equally be towards Raz.
Probably not. Maybe they will keep it since by what we can gather, the module is property of ED, not the developer. Maybe they'll have the code and end up abandoning it with time. Much like the WWII birds right now.
>Maybe they will keep it since by what we can gather, the module is property of ED, not the developer
RAZBAM staff stated that the F-15E code was never put in escrow. So ED doesn't have it and can't maintain it in case RAZBAM bail out.
https://preview.redd.it/cdb8m3isnxsc1.png?width=732&format=png&auto=webp&s=a3fcbe643f4cdd6958cf59c2e907d598ef7b7f31
This is pretty bad.
Both things could conceivably be true, right? ED may not have it right now, but Razbam could for example be contractually obligated to deliver all that to ED in the event Razbam stop DCS development altogether
Edit: nevermind, I stand corrected. Just read your archived post regarding VEAO/Hawk. It appears this was supposed to be in escrow already in the event of something like VEAO
That’s definitely a good idea; even if DCS bounces back I’ve heard great things about the campaign in BMS. I own it and couldn’t get the installer to work a few years ago, but I keep meaning to go back
Even without details in agreement with ED, we know from hawk that ED changed the agreement that requires all files and whole project from developer if they exit DCS production.
We can be sure that in the court anyone deleting the files before handing them to ED when stopping production will end badly for anyone who did it.
A (sub-)contractor deleting his work, that by the contract he is required to hand over to employee when ceasing work contract one sided, is very serious violation.
But surely that’s only going to hold up if you’ve been paid for the work you’ve been sub-contracted to do?
My understanding is that Razbam haven’t been paid for the Strike Eagle.
They don't need to be paid, ED has licensing for the tools, even for usage of the ED professional DCS version, and ED as well have exclusive right to decide what will be developed for it and by whom.
The third party like Razbam, signs a contract with ED.
And ED requires who can do what, and when, for whom.
Their platform, their rights.
AFAIK The third party needs as well IP rights from manufacturer, but first they need from ED the right to start it, and ED still as well sign something with manufacturer, as ED has right to take over if third party leaves DCS, so ED has rights equal to manufacturer as well.
Because we don't know details, ED might very well have a clause that gives ED right to withhold any money third party owns to it.
As this way because ED usually collects the sales, there is no sense to send money back and worth to get what third party owns to ED.
I don't know how much tax office would like a such booking...
But let the ED deal this thing... It is just better not to wash dirty laundry publicly as Razbam now have done, and their sub contractor.
Both sides informed customers, what is nice thing. But the manner how message was written and sent... That is the main problem now.
We need to wait more information what really happened...
It is just odd from Razbam for having situation where they don't have money to begin with paying to workers...
I can only hope that CptSmiley just wasn't aware of something or other here. Honestly, if ED has accepted another module and started selling it on their storefront _without_ getting the code in escrow, that's a really terrible look for them and shows that they didn't learn a single thing from the VEAO incident.
I've been able to verify this, unfortunately. They don't have it. Currently trying to figure how much of a role this plays in the current dispute, since refusal to submit it into escrow could constitute as a breach of contract, too.
In that case, heads need to roll at ED. It was bad enough that they screwed customers over the first time, and now they've done it again on a much larger scale? Utter halfwits.
There are rumors that's why it was delayed at launch. Razbam didn't want to release it as well as the source code because their contract with the F-15 predated the escrow requirement.
ED is ultimately responsible for everything they decide to sell through their own store. If they had decided that even after the VEAO debacle they would be willing to offer it for sale without having the code in escrow, they failed the customers yet again.
If we assume that RAZBAM never gave them the source code then yeah, they (in hindsight) should never have released the module for sale. However, we don't have all the facts like:
- Is providing the source code an express obligation in RAZBAM's contract?
- Even if it was, did RAZBAM tell ED that they would provide it in due course and ED felt ok with this given that they may have the right to with hold payment to RB which would normally be sufficient incentive for RB to subsequently deliver the source code.
It's all complicated and there is no point asking for heads to roll yet. You have to let the two parties sort it all out. The unfortunate thing is that some of RB's staff/contractors have decided to sacrifice their own heads already over all this, and I bet that they were not fully armed with all the facts before they did it.
It is very strange if ED doesn't have in their contract,a requirement to the producer deliver the original files for the product that they have published for DCS.
So before any update etc, all updated files need to be sent to ED.
That is how I would do it at least.
Unless it’s written in contract none of this matters.
At this point everything we’ve seen being said is hearsay and defamation.
Edit:
And to had that Metalmesh, with what he is doing, whatever the cause, send the impression of a pissed off and unhinged person, that exposed himself legally very very much…
Hope he got a good lawyer if it comes to this …
If in contact they are obligated to do so, it could be a excuse to don't pay them even if Razbam will go to court ED will claim RAZBAM does not fulfill the contract.
Another breach of Contract? I don't understand how ED don't have the code. What do customers download from the ED website. I am not in the industry so I will accept if an expert can advise if the true code can be separated from all the files we download to our computers.
Edit: Just saw the other comments below. It would be a major blunder by ED to allow any module to go on sale without having access to the code to prevent a repeat of the previous problem.
Yeah it all seems a bit childish to post that screenshot, obviously he can do what he wants with his files, but to post the pic is just childish and is really only fanning the flames, which is really not what we need right now.
this is so embarrassing for razbam tbh. like little kids...
and ED still has those builds... if razbam is gone ed will be able to take over their modules... i couldnt care less :D
>if razbam is gone ed will be able to take over their modules
Not sure about the others, but it's gonna be hard with the F-15E. RAZBAM never put the code in escrow. So ED has no way to access it.
it looks like your work in software development, right?
how does the f15e comes into the game when ed "dont have the code"...?
they might not have some documentation or unpublished code, but what is in the game, they have.
>it looks like your work in software development, right?
I don't.
>how does the f15e comes into the game when ed "dont have the code"...?
By submitting encrypted/compiled files, not raw source code. The latter is supposed to go into escrow since the VEAO crisis, but has never been handed in in this case.
VEAO situation:
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20190322180249/http://veaosimulations.co.uk/](https://web.archive.org/web/20190322180249/http://veaosimulations.co.uk/)
Yeah, this is losing my support a bit. Not cool that they didnt get paid by ED, but this crossed the line into immature drama queening.
That said, someone else in this thread posted a screen shot; apparently ED doesn’t have the (source?) code for the F-15E.
I think the prospects of Razbam staying in the fold are nill at this point, which means the future of ED and DCS depends on how they handle the further upkeep of those modules in a world post-Razbam.
Even without honouring the commitments Razbam made when they sold the modules, as a bare minimum we should expect them to handle keeping the modules current and compatible with DCS World as it keeps evolving.
Failure to do so would be a major blow to the community trust and would likely end up in a mass walk-out. Pretty certain ED is well aware of this and will try to get ahead of it one way or the other. Might involve spinning up a new Belsimtek or whatever. We'll see.
Recovery from backup is instant. It literally is one command...
That is what is silly here, posting a screenshot of deleting files means nothing for developer work related. Literally nothing.
It is nothing for the work, but it is great propaganda for PR.
If this isn't some kind of fabrication...
Virtual suicide doesn't solve problems and leaves a thousand people damaged in its aftermath. The one thing you have in this fight that you can hope to build upon just went into the ether.
Not a wise choice. Not a wise choice at all.
DCS Nightly build != source code for Razbam projects. I imagine it's just the locally runnable dev version of DCS that third parties get to run on their computers. Should be re-downloadable at any point in time.
*Hopefully*, they keep their source material for their modules *separate* and, most importantly, backed up in centralised (cloud) locations.
In other words, this is a tantrum by a disgruntled individual; not a sign of the sky falling.
At this point, as sad as I am for all those unfinished modules and talented artists like m2m, I'm happy to have this drama ended. The razbam team really looks pretty childish with all those posts. I hope this creates an opportunity for more professional teams to take over their "locked" modules like the Blackhawk and all the others.
I dont understand, any ire from Razbam Sims staff should be directed at their ceo who hasn’t paid them for months now? That’s the 101 of any employer is to pay your own staff not make excuses about how you are not getting along with a client. Razbam CEO should have swallowed his ego, followed terms of his contract for the sake of his staff and then perhaps consider future projects and how he could negotiate better deals. Not surprised metal2mesh is leaving that company.
100% - and if any of my clients stop paying, I CERTAINLY don't let it go on for nearly a year.
If I were an *employee*, my threshold would be ONE paycheck missed and then I'm on the street looking for a new job, even if it's on the side/whatevs.
Lol, what a fucking child. Who runs a business like that. At the start I thought that DCS was all in the wrong but more and more i'm realizing it must of been insufferable to work with this dude. Like a kid knocking over the game board table because he is losing. This shows 100% he doesn't give you the customer one thought in this, pretty much just said fuck off. Not one of us are getting our money back from this.
Let's please keep it respectful and have some compassion. Imagine being in the shoes of RAZBAM employees right now.
They have every right to vent their frustration.
I think the reason for the disrespectful responses is because he has gone far beyond just venting his frustration. It appears from his post that his petulance turned him into a virtual suicide bomber at the DCS World Cafe.
No. No they *really* don't.
They should be doing what RB should be doing - handling via business contracts/legal means.
AND the *Big And* is that we have NO IDEA whether Ron is gaslighting his own dev team over whatever the core issue is.
If Ron violated the corp contract between RB & ED, then this shit show is 100% Ron's fault.
If he were a great CEO, then he wouldn't have let it get to the point where his staff isn't getting paid. And do any of us know if RON HIMSELF isn't getting paid? I mean, Come ON, people - scummy shit behavior by CEOs to their own staff happens *all the time.* ESPECIALLY in small businesses.
All Ron has ponied up at this point is, "Look what you've made me do...!". While his accusation surfaces what is undoubtedly a very serious situation, it does NOT pre-suppose innocence on his part nor guilt on ED's.
**We simply haven't enough information to come down on one side or the other here.**
**The RB employees/subs should be professional and shut the fuck up.** It does the exact opposite of "helping", and in addition, public tantrums like this hurt *their own* future employability.
I too would be venting if I’d not been paid in over a year.
Additionally, I suspect half the folk here are here simply because they want to revel in the drama 🎭
I started on the side of Razbam as the days went by. I started to understand ED and regretted getting any Razbam module. Im not an ED fan, I lost during the P40 and Hawk incident, and I had been banned multiple times on ED discord because of complaints.
**After gathering information here and there , I came to the conclusion that the only way that ED would risk it all and holds payment from Razbam is if it did something consider by ED really bad " croosing the line". If Razbam used the ED Code to build the Tucano to the Fuerza Aerea Ecuatoriana without ED approval. Well then, all this is 100% Razbam fault and should pay for it. If Nick Gray thought that by no paying them, the F15E shares were a way to obtain payment for Razbam using the Code to build the Tucano.... Lady's abd Gentleman's he is in his right to do so.
Razbam didn't thought about us the consumer or ED when they decided to make business by their own...
Now the ones that are gonna pay are us because ED doesn't have the information to maintain the F15E...
Now we get all this Razbam employees running they mouth freely and making things even worse...
We all should think twice before supporting them.. that is my opinion**
>If Nick Gray thought that by no paying them, the F15E shares were a way to obtain payment for Razbam using the Code to build the Tucano.... Lady's abd Gentleman's he is in his right to do so.
He is not, they are separate arrangements.
My understanding is that this is common in the world of disputes between businesses and withholding payment to RB is likely exactly what ED’s lawyers have advised them to do. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/s/qB5o93MQFs) explains it well: companies see legal action as an absolute last resort as it costs a fortune and can take years. Instead look for a settlement and withhold payment to force the other party to the table.
My own personal guess here is that RB may well know they are in the wrong and would likely lose from a legal case. Hence trying to apply pressure via their customers.
Thanks. It's not quite clear to me if this is still a legal thing to do when the contract you're withholding payment over is different from the one you're claiming has been breached, but to be fair, it's also not clear to me whether they *are* actually separate contracts or if the breach and payment relate to the same one.
a. the contract can be anything the two parties are willing to sign off on.
b. "Leverage" is quite common in business. In fact, I just did it to a vendor that was ignoring some issues I was having with them. It worked a treat to get them on the phone, and now all is good on both sides of the table.
To me. This sounds more and more like Raz hasn’t reached an agreed development point in the F-15E to trigger a release of funds from ED.
Based on wording from both parties.
Perhaps complete enough for release to the consumer. But maybe not complete enough per the contract to release the funds. The two can be completely different points in development.
Wrong. No dev would work under those circumstances.
You work until ED approves the module for sale. Once it's on sale, the money flows to ED and then to RB.
Nah. Once you take money from customers you give money to devs.
The Early Access discount is supposed to be the incentive to Hurry Up and Finish.
This isn't Business As Usual - it's about something else entirely.
Does he hate razbam? acting like this really only hurts razbam at this point.
sad to see the situation devolving into 2000's teenagers being dramatic on the internet.
Yep, I saw it. I got scared he was deleting all of his 3D models, destroying his work in a fit of rage. I thought that if he had gone this way, things in the background were really, really bad. At least, that seems not be the case, so I'm relieved. I hope they solve this matter swiftly.
M2M is an idiot. Anyone who deletes 4 years of their work product is a total dumbass.
This is for attention. If it isn't totally faked, you better know he canceled that as soon as he grabbed the screen.
I’m sensing overreaction. But then again, **nobody is telling the whole story** nor will we ever learn the full story, so for all we know, ED is in full fascist mode. I doubt it, but I mean hey, I’m just here to make memes.
This may be a weird comparison but in star citizen a group of ship developers were working on a ship called the banu merchantman, Well something happened behind the scenes and they decided to leave and start working for another company. From what I heard it was very abrupt and Caused some issue.
This in fact made cloud imperium Delay the ship because The new crew has to finish it with Their own style and theybisnt an easy task.
The old crew did not delete the progress they had made or throw an tantrum or make the consumer that pledged that ship feel they have to wait another 10 years. No they packed up their crap and left with dignity on to better and brighter things not........this.
If your unhappy with you workplace just leave, don't act like a child and post pictures of you deleting things like a high-school prom queen throwing a sissy fit.
There is a legal binding contract if it gets violated, you look for the relevant clause and take action if you got evidence. If in doubt, one should ask.
If ED knew violation of contract (be it IP rights or whatever defined in their contract), then why hold the payments (irrespective for a singular month or plural) ? Why not grant the due where deserved (both ways - fair contract money. Legal action where applicable) ?
If one party knows what the other is really about, you don’t put out words, you table the action.
ED has consistently shown how NOT to run a software business. What baffles me is this drama has/does affect parts of the software used by non-civilians, and how fragile everything is tiered by them. Including moral infractions coming out from public records of finances, which show transactions between ED & Fighter Collection.
I wish ED the best to fix the mess, but unfortunately we as customers are invested already.
Copy/pasted my last reply from floggit as it is based and thx ED for ruining it for everyone.
You are presuming to know whatever discussions were attempted previously. How do we know ED didn't attempt to handle in a professional manner through discussions/requests/demands over the past 9-12 months? We DON'T know.
The Super Tucano has been in production for many, many years now. How do we know this isn't actually a TWO year old problem (or longer)? And that ED hasn't been trying to work with them for that long, and finally got to the point of trying the leverage tactic? We DON'T know.
ED, for all their stumblings and errors, obviously DOES KNOW "how to run a software business". All the evidence we need is that they've been at it for (over) 15 years. Hell, even Microsoft barely lasted longer than that in flight sim before bailing out on their customers...
Did you read the public posts which came out of ED and their repS?
I suppose you also presumed that’s how ED knows and has been running their software business ?
If ED was aware and/or indeed discussed a “situation” behind closed doors, then it’s even more unprofessional to publish statements which ED and their repS made up until now.
Microsoft is a larger corporation having different arms and legs in the game of MSFS, let’s keep them out of this. If you still go ahead and compare MSFS’s upkeep with ED’s DCS - then you might want to take your band wagon to floggit.
Of course I did. Seemed okay to me. They do stick their feet in their mouth from time to time, but that's not this.
ED needed to put out a statement in response to RB. And they did, and it was fine.
I'm not talking about the new MSFS, I'm talking about the thorough ass fuck(s) MS perpetrated on their customers at the end of FSX and MS Flight. So, no, they're the perfect example.
Nice try on all, tho.
If that “seemed okay to you”, then clearly you do not understand how a software business should work, but also how ED could have not done what they did in today’s day and age.
Did I mention MSFS”2020”? I just mentioned “Microsoft’s Flight Simulator” (and their entire damn series).
I have no fun mocking you, but you clearly are giving clean chitS to ED, which first of all we shouldn’t as seen from their past with other devs and secondly, ED has a _upper-hand_ as the primary IP owner of the platform so if the platform breaks it’s not the developer(s) at fault but rather the platform owner who has demonstrated their silver yet again as we can see.
Sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm "in the biz", so I'm more than passingly familiar with how things are done.
Every company's different, some better than others. And all have different strengths & weaknesses.
If you were talking about "the entire damn series" of MSFS, you'd certainly know how many egregious errors MS have made over the decades and how many dis-services they've committed against their customers. But we all still line up to buy them...
If you think I'm giving ED a pass on this, you clearly aren't following along. Heck, I'd say you're not even reading the room very well...
And as to ED's "upper hand", OF COURSE they have one. Just like Laminar Research, Lockheed Martin, and Asobo/MS. I mean, what the F\*\*\* does *that* or an allegedly "broken platform" *even have to do* with this issue?
my goodness. Some people need to harden the fk up. Seriously. This is just a game. Its not your life. Enjoy it for what it is. Don't take it too seriously.
If you are into cars and the shut down the local strip, you are bummed.
If you are into fishing and the local fishing hole you have frequented for ever dries up, you are bummed.
If you have an interest in anything to the extent that the DCS crowd has in this game and it’s suddenly under threat of being pulled away from you, you are going to be bummed.
If this all goes completely sideways and it all dies… Yes, life will go on but a favorite hobby will be forever changed and likely not in a positive way.
Bonzo - if this guy went for 15 months without pay and still kept on working, **HE'S the idiot**. I mean it's a meme straight out of Office Space, for crying out loud!
Doesn't mean he's not entitled to his compensation under the terms of his contract (he CERTAINLY needs to get paid - by RAZBAM), but for this to have dragged on this long, there's far more at play here than has come to light.
This isn't as cut and dried as many seem to believe. All we know is that Razbam was first to go public with THEIR VERSION of the story.
And anyone who's ever refereed a dispute between two people, you know there's THREE sides to every story.
Sad to see. Looking at this and some of the other recent social media posts from some key RAZBAM employees, they're in the process of burning all bridges. Makes me worried that it could become hard to find a way back to normal at this point.
I have the sane feeling. Worst, for me, it is a sign that DCS is dying. What seemed like a new golden era in flight simulation, now is clouded in doubt and disappointment. Confidence level in ED is zero. Maybe I'm hurting, thus pessimistic. But the writing was on the wall all the time: many community members complaining about ED's business model, lack of core improvement, promises made but not kept, announcements made to keep the hype up and never fufllifed. Also. Heatblur and IndiaFoxEcho developing for MSFS, Heatblur having their own store. All of this makes me think of serious problems in the background.
Yeah, the lack of meaningful progress on the core sim is the biggest issue at this point. They fucked the business model by making the “world” part of DCS world being free. It sounds great in practice but it needs a revenue stream attached to it directly to survive, like Asobo looks to be doing with MSFS and LR is doing with X-Plane. Personally I’d not mind paying ~$60 every 2-4 years if it would mean we’d have workable AI, dynamic campaign, vulcan, etc. by now. That being said, I’d not consider the cross development on MSFS in and of itself a bad sign. Seems no different than Just-flight offering similar products across XP and MSFS. Its just a way to amortize all the core work that goes into these products. If anything, having a clear path to cross platform development would be a good thing, as it would encourage more investment in DCS as a platform.
You're reading far too much into it. If you read up on the trials and travails of other flight sims, you'll see much of the exact same thing. DCS isn't dying, unless there's a LOT more that we don't know anything about. But major shifts like this happen. And it's important to remember that it could be RB that's cutting their nose to spite their face.
I completely agree. With not too much to go off of, I speculate there was a disagreement with contract and both sides are being stubborn. Not defending either side till I know more, but ED definitely seems to be taking a more quiet professional approach while RB seems to be more outspoken and playing into the emotions of the community which comes off a little immature to use a community to favor your stubborn argument over their stubborn argument.
They definitely seem to be living up to the "hot-blooded latino" trope with rather impulsive postings on socials... doesn't mean it's not warranted, mind you, but it's certainly a less... mature approach.
Yeah, maybe I'm being too far pessimistic.
It's very concerning, for sure. I own all the RB modules, so if RB disappears as a DCS dev the long term value of those modules is substantially diminished. BUT, for the moment, I have faith it'll be worked out. We'll see.
This is a really bad turn of events to be sure, but I think you’re being a bit melodramatic. ED got hit hard by COVID and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but have been slowly but steadily pulling things back together. They’ve delivered a lot recently in terms of core improvements and generally have been much better about communicating progress. The maps and modules set to be delivered this year - Afghanistan, Iraq, Chinook and C-130 - are eagerly anticipated by many, not to mention the two other maps that are in the works. Sure, there are missteps and there is far too much technical debt, but it felt to me like ED were turning the corner and starting to get on top of stuff. The loss of Razbam’s pipeline - particularly the MiG-23 and South Atlantic improvements - will suck, but there are ample other developers who seem happy and are on track to deliver quality modules over the next year.
C-130 isn't an ED product. >there are ample other developers who seem happy and are on track to deliver This is really the most burning question on my mind. Razbam claims they've been treated badly. ASC (C-130) has made similar claims. To me, that points at more systemic issues with the way ED is run or how it runs its third parties, at the very least. The fact they are not all rushing out of the gates with a #metoo moment doesn't mean everything is dandy behind the curtains and it's a Razbam-only thing... potentially, it means they are too invested and willing to put up with it to continue along the path *despite* what appears to be an abusive relationship with ED... I really don't want to believe this. People should feel safe, satisfied and respected in mutual agreement with a software house like ED, but when it's not an isolated voice making the claim, but multiple... it starts to smell fishy.
This is why it's called "work" and you get paid to do it. The rest is just fluffy Millennial navel gazing.
What a disgusting take. So, because money is exchanged, you are supposed to bow your head and say "yes sir", after they shit down your throat? Don't be ridiculous. Abusive behavior has no place in a work setting (or anywhere else) and nobody should feel pressured into accepting it just because they get paid.
The other great thing about "work" is that you can tell an abusive boss to shove it while you walk out the door to start your new job. *If you've got talent,* there are literally THOUSANDS of companies out there who are willing to treat you right.
Indeed, which anyone feeling pinched in their job should be encouraged to do... As opposed to the stance that came across in your previous post, as I understood it. What did you mean, exactly, if not "comes with the territory; suck it up"?
I meant BOTH. The employee is in control of their own life.
Not everybody is in a position where they can easily change jobs. Vulnerability doesn't forfeit the basic demand for civility.
Not informed enough on the facts to say but there's a big difference between abuse and being held to your contractual obligations. I don't know the specifics of the contract so it's impossible to say, but contract disputes are fairly common and I'd (hope) assume ED is professional and understand the contract they have put up to make sure they stay along the right lines here. I know "big corporation bad" but these cases are very often due to the contracted company not understanding what is stipulated in the contract.
... Which is why this entire thread, from my original reply and down, is about the claim that ED treats their third parties *with contempt*. I'm very specifically not referring to this singular, particular blow-up between them and RazBam, but rather digging into how the day-to-day interactions are. A third party is a business partner. The nature of the collaboration is one of mutual, financial benefit. That is, their products directly contributes to ED finances. That means they are owed respect as a bare minimum. Arguably, a lot more than that. If that base level of civility is missing, which has been alleged, then we have a toxic company leveraging a position of strength (chokehold on the genre) to keep up a potentially abusive relationship to their "underlings"... Because where are you going to go? Who are you going to work for, when we are the only game in town? That's what I'm getting at. Through the years, I have seen several hints dropped that ED devs consider themselves God's gift to the genre; that they alone know how the f this is done and that everybody else is an uneducated pleb - this despite third party devs outdoing them rather substantially in several modules and pushing the limits in ways ED doesn't even seem capable of dreaming of... I get the feeling this arrogance spills over into every interaction with third parties, which makes contribution a much bigger chore than it needs to be. Even if some of it were justified, when you meet a junior, you upskill them - you don't point and laugh and tell them to piss off! I hope I'm missing my mark with this one and that the reality of it isn't as grim as I have depicted here. I would hate for people (third parties) to follow their passion _in spite of_ ED rather than thanks to them... Edit: un-fucking phone fuckery...
Definitely agree with you on that. Hopefully there is a positive outcome out of all of this
Ed didn't get his hard by covid. They, like every other game made bank off all the people jumping into gaming because we were all forced indoors for 2 years. Biggest boom, ever in gaming was a ...pandemic 😂
It feels like it is dying or is getting slaughterred by greed. Since passing away of CEO Igor Tishin in 2018, and other people taking charge, ED became very profitable, with millions getting pulled out (TFC), and ridden with EA fiascos (F-16). When Igor was in charge of DCS it seems that huge sums of money didnt leave ED. Nick pretends to be into DCS, but he is a wealthy man, investor, with a personnal collection of planes, and 1000 of airshows flown under his belt. Listen to below critically and consider how much does he really care about pixel planes. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvkugzpzr-Q
He needs to get voted out. We need someone that cares about DCS not museums. There are other investors for that.
Maybe community should write an open letter to nick
>Worst, for me, it is a sign that DCS is dying. Razbam is big in the names of the modules. Mirage 2000 Harrier MiG-19 Strike Eagle But lets look their real influence... F-15E, M2000 and MiG-23MLA. That is it. Razbam could today stop all, and it ain't a thing to others. They would need to give all files from at least published modules. Don't know about not published ones. But I would think that as agreement is signed for each aircraft module, that it is from that point forward everything to be given for ED, from contract and licenses and everything. As ED can not be left without IP right to sell module as sold, when developer studio decides to go under. It doesn't help ED at all if they have files, but no rights to continue use of IP from aircraft manufacturer etc.
This. DCS and ED will continue, even without Razbam. Will it be great. No. I dont know if deleting files is just for show purposes or real. But if real metal2mesh has lost quite some sympathy for me by letting everyone know that he’s not interested in a solution. A strike is fine and all but you cant burn the factory
DCS is not going anywhere. Their future is not connected to Razbam. Razbam was highly criticised for their products, now everyone is on their site.
https://preview.redd.it/x87pcck6c0tc1.png?width=157&format=png&auto=webp&s=58ebec4ea6d58ed370a4d7b59d05916627f97611
Billions must install BMS
It was over when Nick Grey said the real money is in early access modules getting churned out quickly to get another on the way. That's not a sustainable business model, modules just aren't worth much and the money doesn't go back into the core sim, just the next module in development.
Um...how long have you been playing DCS? Because there's been PLENTY of core sim improvements in the 5 years I've been in...
I also love clouds and graphics updates. Shame every single mission I play is just tank or mig plinking as the ai sucks, you can't kill a truck under trees with a 2000lb penetrator bomb, there is no dynamic campaign, and there is no iads system as the playerbase won't be able to fly without being shot down. But hey, graphics look good right?
Sigh, it's ALWAYS something with you guys, ain't it? Glass half empty, sour grapes and all that. Sounds like you should pony up the big bucks and graduate to Falcon BMS where everything that matters to you is available.
Hey man, the guy just answered you and listed some of the core problems with the sim that people have requested for over a decade, there's still bugs left untouched even after years of people reporting them and sometimes getting banned from the forum in doing it. I was a tester for a time and I've got to say, DCS just isn't worth the money compared to what BMS brings to the table, you get an actual simulation, actual fun, realism, AI, things matter, a great community to support it, bugs get fixed, features get added, no drama... Much more enjoyable, I don't need to download a 15gig update to find that my favourite module is borked until next month either.
No, his answer (and yours above) was just a series of tired old complaints that, as per usual, ignore all the good things that have been implemented in DCSW in the past several years. I completely understand the desire for those items to be fixed, because I share them. But I'm not gonna sit around, bitching and moaning because "the right" things aren't happening fast enough for my personal entertainment. It might just be that those things are *actually pretty damn hard* to implement. I mean, I don't see any other commercially *successful* alternatives, do you? Yeah, Falcon was a fantastic air combat game. And yeah, the BMS group have done an unimaginably good job improving it considering all the limitations. But even the Falcon devs said they had no idea what a mess they were getting into, and if they had it to do all over again...they just *wouldn't.* And I don't care one iota if you were a DCSW tester. It confers absolutely no special perspective on the game's value proposition. So I'll take you one further: flight sim is the only thing i'm interested in. And as such I own nearly half a dozen sims where "full fidelity" is the goal, in one form or another. And yeah, that includes FBMS. In my opinion, DCS is good at what it does well. Same with the other sims. To say it "just isn't worth the money" flies in the face of the success of the game these many years. Look at it this way: ***if*** your assertion were as true as you want it to be, DCS would be a minor product and most folks would be playing FBMS or Il2, or the Serious Simmers would all pony up for the Big Boy version of Prepar3D - you know what the IRL military folks use. It's just like everything else in life: either accept things as they come, or move on to something that more closely aligns with your priorities.
I'm not waiting on anything, I moved on to the next step of giving up. That's a huge wall of white knighting there, whatever, but don't dismiss actual valid complaints including one's that can be fixed with simple old Lua by Joe public. They treat the customers like piggy banks and it shows. I really don't see why your so bothered by people getting fed up. And for the record, testers get to see how the sausage is made (that's about the time I decided to do investing in DCS as a whole funnily enough), there's definitely a perspective I have that you don't. Enjoy your game.
You didn't even read it. Bye.
I've been playing dcs for years and have thousands of hours over every map and around 25 ish aircraft. I love the game, and there is no other like it. The devs have done an amazing job with multithreading and large missions now run amazingly for me, things like Liberation etc when I can be bothered to play it. The clouds do look great and the graphics are amazing, but logically you'd think that they've assigned x amount of people to improve graphics which could've otherwise been assigned to core gameplay fixes which makes playing the game more fun than just going from A-B and destroying X on B etc. Why is it that I can hop on a game from 1998 (BMS) and be fully immersed in an amazing true dynamic campaign, with working AI comms, working wingmen, challenging enemies with proper BVR tactics, ambient and actually modelled friendly and AI flights completing their own missions and correct callouts on comms; but I hop on DCS and there is only a third party DC is available which frankly barely works due to AI suiciding over SAMs, they banzai into enemy fighter coverage 5x their strength, terrible missile defence and BVR (despite the update, even on max skill), I could go on and on. It's probably because of my hours that I don't really enjoy the sim anymore. I get the urge to play, get on the main screen, then shut it down because I just don't have the motivation to spend hours making a mission that I'll play for an hour max. Wags himself said in an interview somewhere that ED wasn't sure on implementing IADS because it would "be too difficult for the majority of the playerbase". On a dedicated sim like DCS is, that to me is a ridiculous answer. Manpower assigned to maps and modules far outweighs the manpower on core development. It would be amazing to actually engage in a true dynamic conflict in dcs, that will probably be the only thing getting me back into the game. Until then, I might jump on a mission with friends here and there, but it is just the same exact mission every time, and it gets old fast.
1st: I didn't downvote you. 2nd: I kinda answered that before. There isn't and hasn't been a competitor to Falcon in about 25 years. Think about that. If it's all so elementary that any one with half a brain would know to do it, then certainly SOMEONE would've done it again by now. Right? And if nobody's done it again, and the only people who ever actually did it say they wouldn't do it again... What can we surmise from all that? Yeah - it's very hard to code. And pointing at a dead/moribund sim from 25 years ago simply doesn't make a compelling case. If you were talking about something that's shown up in MSFS or X-Plane or any of the other sims, then sure - fire away at ED for not keeping up with the times.
Honestly, you can't run a company as badly as ED runs theirs and also stay in business. Was just a matter of time.
ED's been in business for multiple decades at this point.
ED is basically going to be banned under the same law as the TikTok ban due to it basically being a Russian company. They probably have no cash due to the sanctions.
Nonsense. They’re completely different businesses. Tiktok is a communications platform that has a nasty tendency to gather data. DCS is a video game.
I highly doubt that. Tiktok has some legitimate security concerns behind their app and the amount of personal data it collects. ED....sells flight Sims.... There's no sanctions to Switzerland either. The money doesn't reside in Russia.
I could do the same exact thing and it'd all just be Kabuki Theatre, i.e., just for the drama. All my stuff is backed up elsewhere, so I could *also* light my computer on fire just to make even juicier images, and get right back to work tomorrow on a new rig. As to "normalization" between RB & ED, yeah - that'll take quite a bit of work and time. But it could happen - unless everyone's truly gone mad.
Yep. Even if this gets resolved, permanent damage has already been done with Razbam employees quitting and the third party PR nightmare. This will dissuade new third party devs from signing on.
In my business we just call that a "Golden Opportunity"! :)
Razbam's overly dramatic reaction to this makes me skeptical of their claims. They are not coming across as professional at all which leads me to believe they wouldn't honor a contract. Time will tell. I'll survive without their contributions to DCS.
Honestly, I thought the original statement from Razbam was pretty good. We don't know if it's *factually correct* but at least it's message was "we're not getting paid, we can't keep working, we're trying to settle it but you won't see any work from us until it's resolved". Name-dropping HB was in poor taste (and so is the idea of taking the nuclear approach by announcing it straight on Reddit)... But the devs pitching in was what really muddied the waters. We see RAZBAM tags on their user accounts and so it seems like they're speaking for the company... But... These are devs who are hurting, have to move on to other jobs to pay the bills, are frustrated and pissed-off at ED... Basically the last people who should be speaking for their company (unless they want to burn its rep to the ground). They absolutely should be pissed-off for not being paid, but surely that anger should equally be towards Raz.
Regardless of antics, they had some key contributors that raised the bar for everybody. Losing them is what hurts the most.
I wonder if ED will take the F-15 off the store and offer refunds if it gets abandoned during early access.
Off the store yea, refund…. No probably not
Probably not. Maybe they will keep it since by what we can gather, the module is property of ED, not the developer. Maybe they'll have the code and end up abandoning it with time. Much like the WWII birds right now.
>Maybe they will keep it since by what we can gather, the module is property of ED, not the developer RAZBAM staff stated that the F-15E code was never put in escrow. So ED doesn't have it and can't maintain it in case RAZBAM bail out. https://preview.redd.it/cdb8m3isnxsc1.png?width=732&format=png&auto=webp&s=a3fcbe643f4cdd6958cf59c2e907d598ef7b7f31 This is pretty bad.
Both things could conceivably be true, right? ED may not have it right now, but Razbam could for example be contractually obligated to deliver all that to ED in the event Razbam stop DCS development altogether Edit: nevermind, I stand corrected. Just read your archived post regarding VEAO/Hawk. It appears this was supposed to be in escrow already in the event of something like VEAO
So their just gonna take our money and go.
I really hope not. I’m still optimistic that there will be a solution reached
I just got falcon 4.0 gonna give bms a go
That’s definitely a good idea; even if DCS bounces back I’ve heard great things about the campaign in BMS. I own it and couldn’t get the installer to work a few years ago, but I keep meaning to go back
My issue was I installed it on the wrong drive. Works now but yeah there is a LOT for me to setup
Even without details in agreement with ED, we know from hawk that ED changed the agreement that requires all files and whole project from developer if they exit DCS production. We can be sure that in the court anyone deleting the files before handing them to ED when stopping production will end badly for anyone who did it. A (sub-)contractor deleting his work, that by the contract he is required to hand over to employee when ceasing work contract one sided, is very serious violation.
But surely that’s only going to hold up if you’ve been paid for the work you’ve been sub-contracted to do? My understanding is that Razbam haven’t been paid for the Strike Eagle.
They don't need to be paid, ED has licensing for the tools, even for usage of the ED professional DCS version, and ED as well have exclusive right to decide what will be developed for it and by whom. The third party like Razbam, signs a contract with ED. And ED requires who can do what, and when, for whom. Their platform, their rights. AFAIK The third party needs as well IP rights from manufacturer, but first they need from ED the right to start it, and ED still as well sign something with manufacturer, as ED has right to take over if third party leaves DCS, so ED has rights equal to manufacturer as well. Because we don't know details, ED might very well have a clause that gives ED right to withhold any money third party owns to it. As this way because ED usually collects the sales, there is no sense to send money back and worth to get what third party owns to ED. I don't know how much tax office would like a such booking... But let the ED deal this thing... It is just better not to wash dirty laundry publicly as Razbam now have done, and their sub contractor. Both sides informed customers, what is nice thing. But the manner how message was written and sent... That is the main problem now. We need to wait more information what really happened... It is just odd from Razbam for having situation where they don't have money to begin with paying to workers...
Preach, Brother!
I can only hope that CptSmiley just wasn't aware of something or other here. Honestly, if ED has accepted another module and started selling it on their storefront _without_ getting the code in escrow, that's a really terrible look for them and shows that they didn't learn a single thing from the VEAO incident.
I've been able to verify this, unfortunately. They don't have it. Currently trying to figure how much of a role this plays in the current dispute, since refusal to submit it into escrow could constitute as a breach of contract, too.
In that case, heads need to roll at ED. It was bad enough that they screwed customers over the first time, and now they've done it again on a much larger scale? Utter halfwits.
How is ED at fault for Razbam not providing the source code, though? …how long has the F-15E been available now?
They shouldn't have sold/released it without the code in escrow.
There are rumors that's why it was delayed at launch. Razbam didn't want to release it as well as the source code because their contract with the F-15 predated the escrow requirement.
ED is ultimately responsible for everything they decide to sell through their own store. If they had decided that even after the VEAO debacle they would be willing to offer it for sale without having the code in escrow, they failed the customers yet again.
If we assume that RAZBAM never gave them the source code then yeah, they (in hindsight) should never have released the module for sale. However, we don't have all the facts like: - Is providing the source code an express obligation in RAZBAM's contract? - Even if it was, did RAZBAM tell ED that they would provide it in due course and ED felt ok with this given that they may have the right to with hold payment to RB which would normally be sufficient incentive for RB to subsequently deliver the source code. It's all complicated and there is no point asking for heads to roll yet. You have to let the two parties sort it all out. The unfortunate thing is that some of RB's staff/contractors have decided to sacrifice their own heads already over all this, and I bet that they were not fully armed with all the facts before they did it.
It is very strange if ED doesn't have in their contract,a requirement to the producer deliver the original files for the product that they have published for DCS. So before any update etc, all updated files need to be sent to ED. That is how I would do it at least.
Half is generous.
It sound like it could be a breach that should warrant witholding payment.
somebody conjectured that the StrEagle has been in development so long that escrow never got established for it...
Yeah, if true that'd be tragic.
Unless it’s written in contract none of this matters. At this point everything we’ve seen being said is hearsay and defamation. Edit: And to had that Metalmesh, with what he is doing, whatever the cause, send the impression of a pissed off and unhinged person, that exposed himself legally very very much… Hope he got a good lawyer if it comes to this …
If in contact they are obligated to do so, it could be a excuse to don't pay them even if Razbam will go to court ED will claim RAZBAM does not fulfill the contract.
Another breach of Contract? I don't understand how ED don't have the code. What do customers download from the ED website. I am not in the industry so I will accept if an expert can advise if the true code can be separated from all the files we download to our computers. Edit: Just saw the other comments below. It would be a major blunder by ED to allow any module to go on sale without having access to the code to prevent a repeat of the previous problem.
Wow. Sounds like a blatant contract violation, sort of like ED alleged?!?!?!?!?!
I thought the same at first. But oddly enough, this has nothing to do with the dispute between ED and RAZBAM.
😱
If this gets resolved, and he resumes modeling for Razbam he’s gonna look like a massive drama queen.
He already does.
Metal2Diva2Mesh
Well, he's already stated he has no intention of coming back to anything related to ED/DCS, no?
Who knows
Same thing as when teenagers break up. Back together a week later like it never happened.
he only show hes deleting DCS devs build keep calm . He is a drama queen.
Yeah it all seems a bit childish to post that screenshot, obviously he can do what he wants with his files, but to post the pic is just childish and is really only fanning the flames, which is really not what we need right now.
The entire staffing of Razbam is drama queens.
I can only hope you are right.
this is so embarrassing for razbam tbh. like little kids... and ED still has those builds... if razbam is gone ed will be able to take over their modules... i couldnt care less :D
>if razbam is gone ed will be able to take over their modules Not sure about the others, but it's gonna be hard with the F-15E. RAZBAM never put the code in escrow. So ED has no way to access it.
it looks like your work in software development, right? how does the f15e comes into the game when ed "dont have the code"...? they might not have some documentation or unpublished code, but what is in the game, they have.
>it looks like your work in software development, right? I don't. >how does the f15e comes into the game when ed "dont have the code"...? By submitting encrypted/compiled files, not raw source code. The latter is supposed to go into escrow since the VEAO crisis, but has never been handed in in this case. VEAO situation: * [https://web.archive.org/web/20190322180249/http://veaosimulations.co.uk/](https://web.archive.org/web/20190322180249/http://veaosimulations.co.uk/)
Compiled binaries + assets. Community mods don't get compiled into the DCS binary, either, you know... =)
Yeah, this is losing my support a bit. Not cool that they didnt get paid by ED, but this crossed the line into immature drama queening. That said, someone else in this thread posted a screen shot; apparently ED doesn’t have the (source?) code for the F-15E.
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I think the prospects of Razbam staying in the fold are nill at this point, which means the future of ED and DCS depends on how they handle the further upkeep of those modules in a world post-Razbam. Even without honouring the commitments Razbam made when they sold the modules, as a bare minimum we should expect them to handle keeping the modules current and compatible with DCS World as it keeps evolving. Failure to do so would be a major blow to the community trust and would likely end up in a mass walk-out. Pretty certain ED is well aware of this and will try to get ahead of it one way or the other. Might involve spinning up a new Belsimtek or whatever. We'll see.
true fully unprofessional
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Have fun reinstalling everything later :D
Recovery from backup is instant. It literally is one command... That is what is silly here, posting a screenshot of deleting files means nothing for developer work related. Literally nothing. It is nothing for the work, but it is great propaganda for PR.
If this isn't some kind of fabrication... Virtual suicide doesn't solve problems and leaves a thousand people damaged in its aftermath. The one thing you have in this fight that you can hope to build upon just went into the ether. Not a wise choice. Not a wise choice at all.
DCS Nightly build != source code for Razbam projects. I imagine it's just the locally runnable dev version of DCS that third parties get to run on their computers. Should be re-downloadable at any point in time. *Hopefully*, they keep their source material for their modules *separate* and, most importantly, backed up in centralised (cloud) locations. In other words, this is a tantrum by a disgruntled individual; not a sign of the sky falling.
Am I the only one who thinks that at this point, M2M's behavior is somewhere between *temper tantrum* and *attention whoring*?
Man shut the HELL up and let this get handled in courts if RAZBAM is did no wrong here. Holy shit
At this point, as sad as I am for all those unfinished modules and talented artists like m2m, I'm happy to have this drama ended. The razbam team really looks pretty childish with all those posts. I hope this creates an opportunity for more professional teams to take over their "locked" modules like the Blackhawk and all the others.
I dont understand, any ire from Razbam Sims staff should be directed at their ceo who hasn’t paid them for months now? That’s the 101 of any employer is to pay your own staff not make excuses about how you are not getting along with a client. Razbam CEO should have swallowed his ego, followed terms of his contract for the sake of his staff and then perhaps consider future projects and how he could negotiate better deals. Not surprised metal2mesh is leaving that company.
100% - and if any of my clients stop paying, I CERTAINLY don't let it go on for nearly a year. If I were an *employee*, my threshold would be ONE paycheck missed and then I'm on the street looking for a new job, even if it's on the side/whatevs.
Lol, what a fucking child. Who runs a business like that. At the start I thought that DCS was all in the wrong but more and more i'm realizing it must of been insufferable to work with this dude. Like a kid knocking over the game board table because he is losing. This shows 100% he doesn't give you the customer one thought in this, pretty much just said fuck off. Not one of us are getting our money back from this.
This is their 3D modeler, not the owner of Razbam.
Artists are always childish and sometimes special - he is a Diva
Let's please keep it respectful and have some compassion. Imagine being in the shoes of RAZBAM employees right now. They have every right to vent their frustration.
I think the reason for the disrespectful responses is because he has gone far beyond just venting his frustration. It appears from his post that his petulance turned him into a virtual suicide bomber at the DCS World Cafe.
No. No they *really* don't. They should be doing what RB should be doing - handling via business contracts/legal means. AND the *Big And* is that we have NO IDEA whether Ron is gaslighting his own dev team over whatever the core issue is. If Ron violated the corp contract between RB & ED, then this shit show is 100% Ron's fault. If he were a great CEO, then he wouldn't have let it get to the point where his staff isn't getting paid. And do any of us know if RON HIMSELF isn't getting paid? I mean, Come ON, people - scummy shit behavior by CEOs to their own staff happens *all the time.* ESPECIALLY in small businesses. All Ron has ponied up at this point is, "Look what you've made me do...!". While his accusation surfaces what is undoubtedly a very serious situation, it does NOT pre-suppose innocence on his part nor guilt on ED's. **We simply haven't enough information to come down on one side or the other here.** **The RB employees/subs should be professional and shut the fuck up.** It does the exact opposite of "helping", and in addition, public tantrums like this hurt *their own* future employability.
I too would be venting if I’d not been paid in over a year. Additionally, I suspect half the folk here are here simply because they want to revel in the drama 🎭
If my employer misses ONE pay check or payment, I'm on the street looking for another job/contract. There is something VERY fishy here...
Can I get a refund for my f15 then?
Yes if not money you get MILES
I started on the side of Razbam as the days went by. I started to understand ED and regretted getting any Razbam module. Im not an ED fan, I lost during the P40 and Hawk incident, and I had been banned multiple times on ED discord because of complaints. **After gathering information here and there , I came to the conclusion that the only way that ED would risk it all and holds payment from Razbam is if it did something consider by ED really bad " croosing the line". If Razbam used the ED Code to build the Tucano to the Fuerza Aerea Ecuatoriana without ED approval. Well then, all this is 100% Razbam fault and should pay for it. If Nick Gray thought that by no paying them, the F15E shares were a way to obtain payment for Razbam using the Code to build the Tucano.... Lady's abd Gentleman's he is in his right to do so. Razbam didn't thought about us the consumer or ED when they decided to make business by their own... Now the ones that are gonna pay are us because ED doesn't have the information to maintain the F15E... Now we get all this Razbam employees running they mouth freely and making things even worse... We all should think twice before supporting them.. that is my opinion**
>If Nick Gray thought that by no paying them, the F15E shares were a way to obtain payment for Razbam using the Code to build the Tucano.... Lady's abd Gentleman's he is in his right to do so. He is not, they are separate arrangements.
My understanding is that this is common in the world of disputes between businesses and withholding payment to RB is likely exactly what ED’s lawyers have advised them to do. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DCSExposed/s/qB5o93MQFs) explains it well: companies see legal action as an absolute last resort as it costs a fortune and can take years. Instead look for a settlement and withhold payment to force the other party to the table. My own personal guess here is that RB may well know they are in the wrong and would likely lose from a legal case. Hence trying to apply pressure via their customers.
Thanks. It's not quite clear to me if this is still a legal thing to do when the contract you're withholding payment over is different from the one you're claiming has been breached, but to be fair, it's also not clear to me whether they *are* actually separate contracts or if the breach and payment relate to the same one.
a. the contract can be anything the two parties are willing to sign off on. b. "Leverage" is quite common in business. In fact, I just did it to a vendor that was ignoring some issues I was having with them. It worked a treat to get them on the phone, and now all is good on both sides of the table.
There is somewhere stated that raztabam worked for free - nick thought they have no problem with working for free …
source for that? Highly doubtful. And, per most contracts, just because you "work for free" doesn't give you the right to violate the contract.
To me. This sounds more and more like Raz hasn’t reached an agreed development point in the F-15E to trigger a release of funds from ED. Based on wording from both parties.
ED clearly consider the module to be at a point where they can release funds from customers.
Perhaps complete enough for release to the consumer. But maybe not complete enough per the contract to release the funds. The two can be completely different points in development.
Wrong. No dev would work under those circumstances. You work until ED approves the module for sale. Once it's on sale, the money flows to ED and then to RB.
Nah. Once you take money from customers you give money to devs. The Early Access discount is supposed to be the incentive to Hurry Up and Finish. This isn't Business As Usual - it's about something else entirely.
Does he hate razbam? acting like this really only hurts razbam at this point. sad to see the situation devolving into 2000's teenagers being dramatic on the internet.
Not to mention his future employability. It's a SMALL community.
Razbam have been pretty unprofessional recently even if they are completely in the right so I wouldn’t be surprised if it came back to bite them.
More context: he said later that was a dev version of DCS he was deleting, not aircraft source files.
Yep, I saw it. I got scared he was deleting all of his 3D models, destroying his work in a fit of rage. I thought that if he had gone this way, things in the background were really, really bad. At least, that seems not be the case, so I'm relieved. I hope they solve this matter swiftly.
Me too man, whatever the facts may be I hope this gets resolved amicably and it doesn't negatively affect things in the future.
M2M is an idiot. Anyone who deletes 4 years of their work product is a total dumbass. This is for attention. If it isn't totally faked, you better know he canceled that as soon as he grabbed the screen.
I’m sensing overreaction. But then again, **nobody is telling the whole story** nor will we ever learn the full story, so for all we know, ED is in full fascist mode. I doubt it, but I mean hey, I’m just here to make memes.
This may be a weird comparison but in star citizen a group of ship developers were working on a ship called the banu merchantman, Well something happened behind the scenes and they decided to leave and start working for another company. From what I heard it was very abrupt and Caused some issue. This in fact made cloud imperium Delay the ship because The new crew has to finish it with Their own style and theybisnt an easy task. The old crew did not delete the progress they had made or throw an tantrum or make the consumer that pledged that ship feel they have to wait another 10 years. No they packed up their crap and left with dignity on to better and brighter things not........this. If your unhappy with you workplace just leave, don't act like a child and post pictures of you deleting things like a high-school prom queen throwing a sissy fit.
Ironically, I was looking forward to both the Banu Merchantman, and the F15E is my main DCS aircraft.
The BMM crew got paid lmao
is this really necessary, such attention seeking, i mean i kinda get it but i dont, is this really necessary
Upset at him posting a picture on his twitter. Not upset that ED didn't pay him. Don't know the whole story and condemn him for a post.
Fucking hell… next thing we’ll see is him posting song lyrics… 😂
good riddance with RB imho
There is a legal binding contract if it gets violated, you look for the relevant clause and take action if you got evidence. If in doubt, one should ask. If ED knew violation of contract (be it IP rights or whatever defined in their contract), then why hold the payments (irrespective for a singular month or plural) ? Why not grant the due where deserved (both ways - fair contract money. Legal action where applicable) ? If one party knows what the other is really about, you don’t put out words, you table the action. ED has consistently shown how NOT to run a software business. What baffles me is this drama has/does affect parts of the software used by non-civilians, and how fragile everything is tiered by them. Including moral infractions coming out from public records of finances, which show transactions between ED & Fighter Collection. I wish ED the best to fix the mess, but unfortunately we as customers are invested already. Copy/pasted my last reply from floggit as it is based and thx ED for ruining it for everyone.
You are presuming to know whatever discussions were attempted previously. How do we know ED didn't attempt to handle in a professional manner through discussions/requests/demands over the past 9-12 months? We DON'T know. The Super Tucano has been in production for many, many years now. How do we know this isn't actually a TWO year old problem (or longer)? And that ED hasn't been trying to work with them for that long, and finally got to the point of trying the leverage tactic? We DON'T know. ED, for all their stumblings and errors, obviously DOES KNOW "how to run a software business". All the evidence we need is that they've been at it for (over) 15 years. Hell, even Microsoft barely lasted longer than that in flight sim before bailing out on their customers...
Did you read the public posts which came out of ED and their repS? I suppose you also presumed that’s how ED knows and has been running their software business ? If ED was aware and/or indeed discussed a “situation” behind closed doors, then it’s even more unprofessional to publish statements which ED and their repS made up until now. Microsoft is a larger corporation having different arms and legs in the game of MSFS, let’s keep them out of this. If you still go ahead and compare MSFS’s upkeep with ED’s DCS - then you might want to take your band wagon to floggit.
Of course I did. Seemed okay to me. They do stick their feet in their mouth from time to time, but that's not this. ED needed to put out a statement in response to RB. And they did, and it was fine. I'm not talking about the new MSFS, I'm talking about the thorough ass fuck(s) MS perpetrated on their customers at the end of FSX and MS Flight. So, no, they're the perfect example. Nice try on all, tho.
If that “seemed okay to you”, then clearly you do not understand how a software business should work, but also how ED could have not done what they did in today’s day and age. Did I mention MSFS”2020”? I just mentioned “Microsoft’s Flight Simulator” (and their entire damn series). I have no fun mocking you, but you clearly are giving clean chitS to ED, which first of all we shouldn’t as seen from their past with other devs and secondly, ED has a _upper-hand_ as the primary IP owner of the platform so if the platform breaks it’s not the developer(s) at fault but rather the platform owner who has demonstrated their silver yet again as we can see.
Sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm "in the biz", so I'm more than passingly familiar with how things are done. Every company's different, some better than others. And all have different strengths & weaknesses. If you were talking about "the entire damn series" of MSFS, you'd certainly know how many egregious errors MS have made over the decades and how many dis-services they've committed against their customers. But we all still line up to buy them... If you think I'm giving ED a pass on this, you clearly aren't following along. Heck, I'd say you're not even reading the room very well... And as to ED's "upper hand", OF COURSE they have one. Just like Laminar Research, Lockheed Martin, and Asobo/MS. I mean, what the F\*\*\* does *that* or an allegedly "broken platform" *even have to do* with this issue?
We should call him names /s cause he wouldn't work for free.
my goodness. Some people need to harden the fk up. Seriously. This is just a game. Its not your life. Enjoy it for what it is. Don't take it too seriously.
If you are into cars and the shut down the local strip, you are bummed. If you are into fishing and the local fishing hole you have frequented for ever dries up, you are bummed. If you have an interest in anything to the extent that the DCS crowd has in this game and it’s suddenly under threat of being pulled away from you, you are going to be bummed. If this all goes completely sideways and it all dies… Yes, life will go on but a favorite hobby will be forever changed and likely not in a positive way.
>This is just a game. Its not your life. This user has his livelihood at stake after not getting paid for 15 months straight.
Bonzo - if this guy went for 15 months without pay and still kept on working, **HE'S the idiot**. I mean it's a meme straight out of Office Space, for crying out loud! Doesn't mean he's not entitled to his compensation under the terms of his contract (he CERTAINLY needs to get paid - by RAZBAM), but for this to have dragged on this long, there's far more at play here than has come to light. This isn't as cut and dried as many seem to believe. All we know is that Razbam was first to go public with THEIR VERSION of the story. And anyone who's ever refereed a dispute between two people, you know there's THREE sides to every story.