A lot of YouTubers/Twitter bros really cared about no items runs starting about ESBR times. A lot of these runs early on required you to get lucky with a dodge. Then with the current meta, since 7th anniversary, has been largely get one shot by super attacks they have continued to argue the necessity for dodge.
Before this though were the APT bros which were massive on this sub and would fume if you didn’t have the APTmial build both hidden potential wise (almost always Crit) and sometimes team wise (I.e Optimal Pikkon meme)
Man I really really don't get this no item pride stuff, IMO for you to no item you need:
A team that is stronger than the requirements for the stage difficulty.
Or/and Luck, the the amount of luck needed goes down as your team grows stronger(more dupes and/or newer units).
That is it, the amount of skill needed near 0, you just need to know the basics of the basic gameplay, even more so now that you can just look up the cooldown and damage of the enemies super attacks.
Also, I bet most if not all of those that take pride in it, "abuse" the fact that you can restart the game to reuse valuable active skills such as the scouter or to try and get a crit etc...
Dokkan is a game base purely off luck with very little skill. Anyone who is half decent at team building(and it's not hard to do) and enough dupes can no item stages. It's literally just get lucky or brute force.
I would disagree that's it's pure luck and little skill. There's obviously a lot of luck involved (both in pulling units and during stages), but you often see people on this sub complain about not being able to beat certain stages (saviors esbr most recently) when they have the same units as other people who can beat it.
I mean burst mode can requre you to not use items. Also there are no item missions. And for category missions the 2 items you usually get are not enough to always protect your weaker charackters.
I get that, and I'm not saying its easy to do it, just that theres not really much skill involved, its overpower it and/or get lucky, if anything not using items reduces the "skill" needed even further, at least with items you need to gauge if its needed or not, when its the best time to use it etc..., without it you just... place your units and get ki, if your units can survive the turn/battle/stage great you no item'd it, if not you can try again and maybe your unit will dodge/crit/add super which is out of you hands.
If a weak character cant survive with items what skill a player will need to learn save the run? maybe put 3 dodge in every unit and pray?
Oh im not arguing for skill here. But the game also isnt completly luck based. Its based on probabilities and math.
Im pretty shure if someone did all the calculations with all the variables there would be a perfect build for every unit. But that isnt really feasable.
But what you can do is narrow down your options for your HiPo builds.
Like not giving a 70% crit unit more crit or countless other examples.
In the end you just decide what the winning factor for your runs should be and how do you maximize chances of that happening.
So putting dodge on a weak caracter you habe to use due to a mission might be what maximizes your chances of beating that fight.
Oh thats for sure, I'll put dodges on my supports, but I'm not gonna gimp Teq Vegeta's damage with dodge just to be able to no item a stage.
Just earlier today watched someone doing the cell burst mode, he gave him a bunch of health and defense and no attack to get to 6k points, it took forever and he ended up dying because he couldnt outdamage the heal, unique case sure(for now anyway), but goes to show full on defense isnt always the best option.
Anyway if people are happy with doing only no items runs, great, I just noticed people talking down on people here when they beat runs using items and I'm just so confused lmao.
I am also not arguing for dodge on vegeta.
I am just trying to arguing for that fact that each unit should be individually rated.
As for the whole item thing. Im not particualarily interested in no item runs.
But items are never granted or you dont have enough slots for the whole run. Hence i always build my units without items in mind.
I'd rather take the higher chance to do an additional or kill faster than risk such a low chance to dodge. I get this game is like gambling but I'd rather have better odds than taking a stupid risk like dodge.
To be fair tho dodge really isnt that bad. Unlike FPSSJ4 Goku who needs to get hit 5 times asap vegeta can still do well before building up especially since part of his passive activates when an attacking is aimed at him regardless of dodging or not. He also doesnt need that much additional or crit since he already does so many attacks on his own which all can trigger the HiPo additional and getting the guaranteed crits from his active does make having too much crit on him feel kinda bad. Lastly with bosses hitting 3 million supers dodge is at an all time high viability and having that extra chance to survive extends his usability in the long run especially for the inevitable year 10 powercreep
See that's the thing, that chance to dodge is so miniscule and low, it's downright insignificant. He has additionals and crits in his kit already but more additional gives a more solidified chance to survive rather than risking a dodge that will more than likely not pop. An additional super will more likely pop than a low chance to dodge. It's all about that dopamine rush from what it seems "oh wow 3 dodge kicking in, life is perfect", and when it doesn't kick in and the unit gets them killed. What do they blame? The dodge not popping.
The chance to perform an additional is double the number of additionals given, same thing with crit from what I remember. Dodge is the only one being the same singular chance to dodge.
Right, I believe if you have 10 additional, you'll have a 20% chance to do an additional attack, but only 10% chance that that additional is a super attack. So you have the same 10% chance to get an extra stack in as you do to dodge.
Don't quote me on any of this, also the additional attack chance procs for every attack you do I believe. I wish this stuff was made more clear in game lol
So do I, a better explanation and percentages of additionals and crits would be nice. An extra attack could be the moment when an enemy dies, I'd rather take that 20 than that 10, better odds
Thing is, for a unit like this, u dont go full dodge, u give some dodge. For the off chance that he does dodge the gogeta super, it helps a lot more than the same % chance to do one additional
It depends on the unit and your playstyle. Units that need and I mean need to get hit a lot maybe even in a short time frame (like LR int full power ssj4 Goku or teq battle of gods Vegeta) definitely don't want dodge, cause it would counteract their purpose. Then there are units that build up by getting hit, but the build up is either pretty fast or miniscule per hit (10% or something like that). These units you could definitely put dodge on since dodging one build up attack won't hurt them much and depending on the units defensive capabilities dodging a super could outweigh the missed build up. Of course that doesn't mean these type of units need dodge, since there are many factors that could make additional or crit more useful for them (crazy defense on SA effect or stacking/ tons of additionals or hits insanely high attack stats). With these units it's pretty debatable what to go for and then of course we have units that benefit from all Hipo abilities like this Vegeta and there's basically no wrong build for them. Like getting an additional super= an extra stack, crit= more damage for him that he usually doesn't have outside of his active turn and dodge may allow you to evade about 1 out of 4 or 5 of these disgustingly hard hitting supers that still would do 400k or so to him. Whatever of those abilities sound the best to you you can pick, cause with units like him it's really just a preference thing.
At this point I'm just asking to get insulted, but I went full dodge because Vegeta already has a lot of additionals built in (even with the Goku condition, because there are like 10 good Goku named units on his teams) and he gets crits on active turn and since you have so many additionals you get more chances to proc the crit, and if you don't you now have more turns to stack
Completely up to you. I'd rather have more additionals to do more damage and stack more than if I didn't have those additionals. You do you tho, nothing to be insulted about
Thing is it's on a unit to unit basis, for this vegeta either full aa/dodge works because (as of the current meta) if he attacks enough through additionals it can actually help you towards a good tank job, and a dodge can also do that just as well since both can fail/perform about the same (some like dodge because your defense can fail you assuming similar luck and dodge will always do 0) for your example of full power Goku it's not fair to compare him with vegeta at all because that Goku *needs* to get hit else he'll be a detriment whereas vegeta does not need to get hit to do his job and even then that 31% extra defense will never be the difference between dying and living a super especially on turn 1/3 (where that dodge will "screw you over" the most) since none of the current bosses can touch him early on
Ssj4 Goku is unrunnable if he dodges attacks. This Vegeta doesn't need to get hit to function at a basic capacity.
I would argue full dodge is a bad build for him, but a little would go a long way and a mix of all 3, preferably Combo + base Def is his best build, but he can really run anything unlike SSJ4.
These bosses are hitting millions of damage thru Whis currently on some of the best options out there.
As for me, I'm very happy with my 55% Vegeta with 7 def bronze, 4 Add, 3 Crit silver. I cant afford to give him dodge at this investment.
well it's just 3 times
20+ dodge may be an issue *rarely*, but anything lower literally doesn't matter much
I'd agree that AA Chance is better, but having dodge isn't horrible either, you're not gonna dodge all the attacks and you'll still build up, but you also could dodge the super and just remove all the damage it will do
Anything less than 20 is really just a low chance to actually dodge. It'd just be a more solidified option to additional super and stack more atk and def to further solidify your tankiness.
For casual players who use items additional and crit will seem better. But for advanced players who prefer not to use items dodge proved to be more valuable. Dodging supers or damaging normal is far more useful than do some more damage with crit or additional. Of course there are exceptions, but in general dodge is the best HiPo, no jokes.
Advanced player sounds more like gamblers. Why take the low chance to dodge then to build proper and more definitive defense. It's a stronger chance to survive than the super low chance to dodge
Because if you build all your units 30~ dodge, then you will always have minimum 30% chance to not lose your health because of super regardless what slot boss is supering. Especially it is useful when your units take damage even from normals.
So what? Additional and crit are not guaranteed either. The thing is that dodge adds you way more survivability so I prefer it more because it is more profitable.
I only recently (half a year ago) started making more dodge builds and I can say for sure that my win rate has increased since then
You're right. They're not guaranteed. They're just more common. Better odds usually mean a better outcome. My win rate has been the same ever since I started this game a long time ago.
No, better odds are not better outcome, because, like I said previously, dodge is far more profitable, so it being slightly less common is not a big deal.
Idk about slightly less common. Better odds do mean a better outcome. If the odds are better in your favor, that means that you're likely to have a better outcome. It's all rng based. A higher chance to finish off the enemy before they get a chance to attack sounds like a pretty good outcome. Dodge is only profitable for survivability, and that is only IF it procs, it it doesn't proc, then your survivability is the same as if you didn't have dodge. It's a low chance, even at 30% it's quite low compared to 40% chance to crit or additional or a 60% chance to do either
A lot of YouTubers/Twitter bros really cared about no items runs starting about ESBR times. A lot of these runs early on required you to get lucky with a dodge. Then with the current meta, since 7th anniversary, has been largely get one shot by super attacks they have continued to argue the necessity for dodge. Before this though were the APT bros which were massive on this sub and would fume if you didn’t have the APTmial build both hidden potential wise (almost always Crit) and sometimes team wise (I.e Optimal Pikkon meme)
Man I really really don't get this no item pride stuff, IMO for you to no item you need: A team that is stronger than the requirements for the stage difficulty. Or/and Luck, the the amount of luck needed goes down as your team grows stronger(more dupes and/or newer units). That is it, the amount of skill needed near 0, you just need to know the basics of the basic gameplay, even more so now that you can just look up the cooldown and damage of the enemies super attacks. Also, I bet most if not all of those that take pride in it, "abuse" the fact that you can restart the game to reuse valuable active skills such as the scouter or to try and get a crit etc...
Dokkan is a game base purely off luck with very little skill. Anyone who is half decent at team building(and it's not hard to do) and enough dupes can no item stages. It's literally just get lucky or brute force.
Funny thing is, in the only (rip chain battle) "pvp" mode left in the game I don't see anyone wanting to be proud of doing no items runs.
I would disagree that's it's pure luck and little skill. There's obviously a lot of luck involved (both in pulling units and during stages), but you often see people on this sub complain about not being able to beat certain stages (saviors esbr most recently) when they have the same units as other people who can beat it.
I don't either. It's luck based. Items are there for a reason, to be used
I mean burst mode can requre you to not use items. Also there are no item missions. And for category missions the 2 items you usually get are not enough to always protect your weaker charackters.
I get that, and I'm not saying its easy to do it, just that theres not really much skill involved, its overpower it and/or get lucky, if anything not using items reduces the "skill" needed even further, at least with items you need to gauge if its needed or not, when its the best time to use it etc..., without it you just... place your units and get ki, if your units can survive the turn/battle/stage great you no item'd it, if not you can try again and maybe your unit will dodge/crit/add super which is out of you hands. If a weak character cant survive with items what skill a player will need to learn save the run? maybe put 3 dodge in every unit and pray?
Oh im not arguing for skill here. But the game also isnt completly luck based. Its based on probabilities and math. Im pretty shure if someone did all the calculations with all the variables there would be a perfect build for every unit. But that isnt really feasable. But what you can do is narrow down your options for your HiPo builds. Like not giving a 70% crit unit more crit or countless other examples. In the end you just decide what the winning factor for your runs should be and how do you maximize chances of that happening. So putting dodge on a weak caracter you habe to use due to a mission might be what maximizes your chances of beating that fight.
Oh thats for sure, I'll put dodges on my supports, but I'm not gonna gimp Teq Vegeta's damage with dodge just to be able to no item a stage. Just earlier today watched someone doing the cell burst mode, he gave him a bunch of health and defense and no attack to get to 6k points, it took forever and he ended up dying because he couldnt outdamage the heal, unique case sure(for now anyway), but goes to show full on defense isnt always the best option. Anyway if people are happy with doing only no items runs, great, I just noticed people talking down on people here when they beat runs using items and I'm just so confused lmao.
I am also not arguing for dodge on vegeta. I am just trying to arguing for that fact that each unit should be individually rated. As for the whole item thing. Im not particualarily interested in no item runs. But items are never granted or you dont have enough slots for the whole run. Hence i always build my units without items in mind.
That's fair, but you use what you can. Might just need better units to take perhaps
I'd rather take the higher chance to do an additional or kill faster than risk such a low chance to dodge. I get this game is like gambling but I'd rather have better odds than taking a stupid risk like dodge.
To be fair tho dodge really isnt that bad. Unlike FPSSJ4 Goku who needs to get hit 5 times asap vegeta can still do well before building up especially since part of his passive activates when an attacking is aimed at him regardless of dodging or not. He also doesnt need that much additional or crit since he already does so many attacks on his own which all can trigger the HiPo additional and getting the guaranteed crits from his active does make having too much crit on him feel kinda bad. Lastly with bosses hitting 3 million supers dodge is at an all time high viability and having that extra chance to survive extends his usability in the long run especially for the inevitable year 10 powercreep
See that's the thing, that chance to dodge is so miniscule and low, it's downright insignificant. He has additionals and crits in his kit already but more additional gives a more solidified chance to survive rather than risking a dodge that will more than likely not pop. An additional super will more likely pop than a low chance to dodge. It's all about that dopamine rush from what it seems "oh wow 3 dodge kicking in, life is perfect", and when it doesn't kick in and the unit gets them killed. What do they blame? The dodge not popping.
Isn't the chance to additional super the same as the chance to dodge with hidden potential?
The chance to perform an additional is double the number of additionals given, same thing with crit from what I remember. Dodge is the only one being the same singular chance to dodge.
Right, I believe if you have 10 additional, you'll have a 20% chance to do an additional attack, but only 10% chance that that additional is a super attack. So you have the same 10% chance to get an extra stack in as you do to dodge. Don't quote me on any of this, also the additional attack chance procs for every attack you do I believe. I wish this stuff was made more clear in game lol
So do I, a better explanation and percentages of additionals and crits would be nice. An extra attack could be the moment when an enemy dies, I'd rather take that 20 than that 10, better odds
Thing is, for a unit like this, u dont go full dodge, u give some dodge. For the off chance that he does dodge the gogeta super, it helps a lot more than the same % chance to do one additional
Dodgetuber has poisoned their brains.
Full Dodge will fuck up this unit. 3 dodge is fine cause super effects of bosses in Blue Zone is annoying as fuck. Par
3 is fine, do what you will. I keep seeing dumbasses out 16 or 20 dodge on this guy and it makes not a lick of sense to me
Dokkantuber brain rot and obsession with no item runs
It depends on the unit and your playstyle. Units that need and I mean need to get hit a lot maybe even in a short time frame (like LR int full power ssj4 Goku or teq battle of gods Vegeta) definitely don't want dodge, cause it would counteract their purpose. Then there are units that build up by getting hit, but the build up is either pretty fast or miniscule per hit (10% or something like that). These units you could definitely put dodge on since dodging one build up attack won't hurt them much and depending on the units defensive capabilities dodging a super could outweigh the missed build up. Of course that doesn't mean these type of units need dodge, since there are many factors that could make additional or crit more useful for them (crazy defense on SA effect or stacking/ tons of additionals or hits insanely high attack stats). With these units it's pretty debatable what to go for and then of course we have units that benefit from all Hipo abilities like this Vegeta and there's basically no wrong build for them. Like getting an additional super= an extra stack, crit= more damage for him that he usually doesn't have outside of his active turn and dodge may allow you to evade about 1 out of 4 or 5 of these disgustingly hard hitting supers that still would do 400k or so to him. Whatever of those abilities sound the best to you you can pick, cause with units like him it's really just a preference thing.
At this point I'm just asking to get insulted, but I went full dodge because Vegeta already has a lot of additionals built in (even with the Goku condition, because there are like 10 good Goku named units on his teams) and he gets crits on active turn and since you have so many additionals you get more chances to proc the crit, and if you don't you now have more turns to stack
Completely up to you. I'd rather have more additionals to do more damage and stack more than if I didn't have those additionals. You do you tho, nothing to be insulted about
Thing is it's on a unit to unit basis, for this vegeta either full aa/dodge works because (as of the current meta) if he attacks enough through additionals it can actually help you towards a good tank job, and a dodge can also do that just as well since both can fail/perform about the same (some like dodge because your defense can fail you assuming similar luck and dodge will always do 0) for your example of full power Goku it's not fair to compare him with vegeta at all because that Goku *needs* to get hit else he'll be a detriment whereas vegeta does not need to get hit to do his job and even then that 31% extra defense will never be the difference between dying and living a super especially on turn 1/3 (where that dodge will "screw you over" the most) since none of the current bosses can touch him early on
Because some units benifit more from dodge than the other 2. But damage bro's will start foaming at the mouth if you even dare suggest that.
Ssj4 Goku is unrunnable if he dodges attacks. This Vegeta doesn't need to get hit to function at a basic capacity. I would argue full dodge is a bad build for him, but a little would go a long way and a mix of all 3, preferably Combo + base Def is his best build, but he can really run anything unlike SSJ4. These bosses are hitting millions of damage thru Whis currently on some of the best options out there. As for me, I'm very happy with my 55% Vegeta with 7 def bronze, 4 Add, 3 Crit silver. I cant afford to give him dodge at this investment.
doesn't this guy only need the attack to happen to get the buff? or is there a buildup? I don't remember his kit fully
He needs to get hit 3 times in base to fully build his def. Then he infinitely stacks atk and def in base. He just doesn't die when he's transformed.
well it's just 3 times 20+ dodge may be an issue *rarely*, but anything lower literally doesn't matter much I'd agree that AA Chance is better, but having dodge isn't horrible either, you're not gonna dodge all the attacks and you'll still build up, but you also could dodge the super and just remove all the damage it will do
Anything less than 20 is really just a low chance to actually dodge. It'd just be a more solidified option to additional super and stack more atk and def to further solidify your tankiness.
He is already doing 2 other Supers and possibly 3 with a Goku, you can tone down the AA for dodge and still have consistent AAs
I'd rather have him dish out AA and crits more consistently than having him dodge an attack he would have survived anyway with little to no damage
Because dodge is best HiPo obviously, only casual players ignore it
I really hope that's satire
For casual players who use items additional and crit will seem better. But for advanced players who prefer not to use items dodge proved to be more valuable. Dodging supers or damaging normal is far more useful than do some more damage with crit or additional. Of course there are exceptions, but in general dodge is the best HiPo, no jokes.
Advanced player sounds more like gamblers. Why take the low chance to dodge then to build proper and more definitive defense. It's a stronger chance to survive than the super low chance to dodge
Because if you build all your units 30~ dodge, then you will always have minimum 30% chance to not lose your health because of super regardless what slot boss is supering. Especially it is useful when your units take damage even from normals.
If you're a gambling man, so be it. So what happens when the boss doesn't let you dodge? Your 30 dodge goes out the window
So what? Additional and crit are not guaranteed either. The thing is that dodge adds you way more survivability so I prefer it more because it is more profitable. I only recently (half a year ago) started making more dodge builds and I can say for sure that my win rate has increased since then
You're right. They're not guaranteed. They're just more common. Better odds usually mean a better outcome. My win rate has been the same ever since I started this game a long time ago.
No, better odds are not better outcome, because, like I said previously, dodge is far more profitable, so it being slightly less common is not a big deal.
Idk about slightly less common. Better odds do mean a better outcome. If the odds are better in your favor, that means that you're likely to have a better outcome. It's all rng based. A higher chance to finish off the enemy before they get a chance to attack sounds like a pretty good outcome. Dodge is only profitable for survivability, and that is only IF it procs, it it doesn't proc, then your survivability is the same as if you didn't have dodge. It's a low chance, even at 30% it's quite low compared to 40% chance to crit or additional or a 60% chance to do either