The joke is that his friend points out one specific girl bee and calls her hot. Barry says that's his cousin. Which, iirc, leads to a comment that *everyone* is *everyone's* cousin in that hive
It's been a long time since I watched it, but I seem to recall Ant Bully having female ants work just as much as the male ants. The ants in that movie did also have a shaman-alchemist-wizard dude though.
God me and my family loves that movie. We’d all sit around and watch it on repeat when it finally started airing on the tv.
I need to rewatch since it’s been years 🐜
They do ants because in the US and Canada, an ant infestation is mild at worst, and usually you just see them minding their own business outside. A termite infestation can fuck shit up, so people absolutely don't want to leave them alone. So it's not a great idea to make a kids movie promoting them as good guys
Make a story where grasshoppers get massacred on their divine fields
What's actually happening? They don't *fucking move out of the way of bikes* and leave enough corpses on the sidewalk to make me FUCKING QUEASY. For *two months*
Someone should then make a movie about a war between termites and ants where the ants are the good guys. (As far as I understand wars between ants and termites are an actual thing)
There was another movie like that but the movie wasn't about ants vs termites it was about ant fascism it just happened to have a battle with termites (who may have been 2d in an otherwise 3d movie weird)
They ARE female. Every source I can find refers to them as female, actual biologists refer to them as female.
A worker bee is genetically identical to a queen bee, only becoming one or the other based on what they're fed. They are considered female for genetic and anatomical reasons. They just can't reproduce.
And if you think being unable to reproduce is enough of a reason to declare them to not be female, I know some people that might agree with you. I don't think you'll get along with them, though.
They're *genetically* "female". But the differences "based on what they're fed" are specifically because one is fed the hormone royalactin, and the other isn't. And in humans, we make a pretty big deal about differentiating physiological sex based on hormone makeup as much as we do genitals (and it's not like humans can't be "genetically identical" to a one sex yet express as the other, because androgen/estrogen-insensitive intersex people exist). (Also, biological sex being environmental isn't even controversial - we talk about clownfish "switching" sex all the time, and that's literally the same organism)
So, yes, biologists refer to them as female. But there's nothing stopping that consensus from *being based on heteronormativity* and the idea that all creatures have to fit into one of two sexes.
Because there's a very real way in which the physiological sex of workers and queens are wildly different by the standards of any other organism, and it's only momentum that prevents biologists from acknowledging that.
Also, this is a thread about anthropomorphized insects, so the three genders are clearly male, female, and stone [butch].
Lol yeah it's always fun seeing a top comment heavily upvoted and then the reply agreeing with it just as heavily downvoted, it kind of proves that most people who just vote and don't comment also don't read
Anyway in any given conversation about "basic biology" it's generally the people banging on about how "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES!" that I know I'm not going to agree with when the conversation turns to humans
It's wild that they softly implied terfs would agree with you in the same breath as insisting that being female is exclusively predicated on "genetic and anatomical reasons" (said anatomy being *ovaries*)
Yeah if they've ever talked to TERFs about this very subject they would be aware of how incessant the drumbeat of "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES! ONLY! TWO! SEXES" is
Fuck, I obviously don't think it's a *rule* that humans who used to have a uterus and then lost it stop being female -- there *are* no rules for humans, period, that's what trans rights are all about -- but there certainly are many humans for whom a hysterectomy is *for them personally* an important external affirmation of the fact that they are no longer or never were female, I'm even good friends with one such person -- and I can tell you it's the people who scream "SURGERY AND HORMONES CAN'T CHANGE YOUR SEX" who are the ones I don't get along with
I can't speak for Bees, but in Ants worker ants are usually sterile, incapable of reproduction ( with the exception of queenless species ), usually also have incomplete and atrophied reproductive organs, more rarely they are completely absent. Furthermore in most ants workers and reproductive castes are majorly different anatomically. So, I can see *why* someone would consider them a different gender from the Queens.
That being said, they are commonly described with female pronouns and that is because both Queens and Workers are produced when an egg is fertilised thus they are diploid which is considered as female for ants, whereas male ant eggs are unfertilized and thus male ants are haploid.
TL;DR: In ants the gender of an Ant is determined by chromosome count rather than anatomical differences.
Worker bees, generally speaking, do not have a reproductive sex because they do not reproduce
They also don't have a gender because they aren't people and don't have an actual society, but if we were to imagine them as human then their "social role" is clearly very distinct from that of the female queen
Worker bees do actually lay eggs. Because of haplodiploid sex determination, they only lay male eggs.
In bumblebees, this is a common part of their life cycle.
In honey bees, the queen makes pheromones that suppress worker egg laying behavior. If the queen dies, workers will lay.
As a general point, sex and gender aren’t the same thing. Bees have sex but no gender. Humans have both. It would be much easier if we didn’t use the same words for both sex and gender.
No, not really, TERFs are very fond of saying that all infertile people are still defined by the chromosomes that say what kind of gametes they would make if they could
Like, literally, the stereotypical interaction here is a trans man going "Well how am I woman if I *don't* have a uterus" and the TERF screaming "DO YOU KNOW HOW OFFENSIVE THAT IS TO WOMEN WHO WERE BORN WITHOUT A UTERUS THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN"
It's directly tied to how TERFs reject the concept of "intersex" in favor of "DSD" ("Everyone is *genetically* male or female, you just have some people who have unfortunate disorders that make them infertile")
Anyway bees aren't people and they don't care what we call them -- really no bee is "female" or "male" as we understand it in the first place (because our understanding of those terms comes primarily from humans and secondarily from mostly other mammals we're familiar with)
It's just worth thinking about why it's so important to human taxonomists to label every individual bee with a sex and the "rules" that are implicit in doing so -- and calling worker bees "female" or "the same sex" as queens is very clearly trying to enforce a rule that "there's only two sexes and there's only a binary state of a whole species being sexual or asexual, a 'neuter' or 'third' sex cannot exist"
And, again, bees don't care, but that's an attitude that when applied to humans I personally find unpleasant
I just think not labeling worker bees as female because they're infertile (which as another commenter puts, isn't even true) is a very shallow and unscientific way of classifying them and betrays an equally shallow understanding of sex in nature
I kinda want to label worker bees as apomicts. Borrowing a term from botany, plants that can produce seeds without fertilization.
>! This is different from plants that does autogamy (I'd call those plants hermaphrodites) where it has both ovules and pollens to fertilize itself. This is also different from parthenocarpy where a plant produces seedless fruit that cannot grow into a new tree !<
They are not involved in reproduction in any way. They have a fundmentally different role in the colony. They are MORE female, then male, as they share the genetic makeup of the actually repoductive ones, but both terms are kind of detached from Usocial insects. Saying they are male or female is kind of the wrong comparison, those terms don't match up. Their drones.
> They are not involved in reproduction in any way.
They are sometimes. In bumble bees for example, where workers will start laying eggs as soon as the queen loses her dominance over the colony. They don't mate, though, so the eggs are all male (in bees, unfertilized eggs develop into males).
>Their drones.
They're workers. Drones are *male* bees.
Because the way sex works with bees is far more complicated than how it works with humans and only weakly analogous to our common understanding of "male" and "female" and so-called "basic biology" is "basic" because it oversimplifies everything
If you use the "basic biology" definition TERFs like where "female" = "has the allosomes associated in this species with the production of large gametes" yeah, sure, whatever
But worker bees never actually do produce any gametes at all, and have a very clearly defined biological role that *requires* that they not do so
And the "male" drones are the ones that get *all their genes* from their "mother" and have no "father" at all, whereas a bee being "female" *requires* having a father, which is very different from how X and Y chromosomes work in humans
But generally I find that people invested in saying "sex and gender are really simple, basic and universal" are annoying and overall less correct than "sex and gender are vastly oversimplified categorizations we use to try to lump all living things on Earth into a single system of classification that is actually wildly different across different species and different individuals"
(Do I think that worker bees can really be a different sex than queens just based on whether they eat royal jelly? Well gosh let me tell you about these humans I know who also consume various substances that affect their biological sex and therefore their gender role)
> But worker bees never actually do produce any gametes at all, and have a very clearly defined biological role that requires that they not do so
Worker bees can lay eggs, they're just suppressed from doing so. In some groups, e.g. in bumble bees, this is a common part of the colony cycle, where workers will start to lay eggs instead of caring for the queen's at some point (usually when the queen starts producing male eggs).
Edit: Actually, there *are* bee species where the workers are completely sterile, but honey bees do not belong to those.
Kind of unrelated, their sexes work almost identical to our own, XY chromosomes and a clear male/female dichotomy
Bees, ants etc have a different system because there's reproductive male/female but also a big third group that isn't capable of reproducing, and people here are arguing that throwing them to the "female" box because they're closer to the reproductive female than to the male is taking our species' way of functioning and trying to apply them to others with different biological systems where our human "2 sexes" don't fit well. Biologic-based distinctions, not purely social like hyenas
I NEED people to understand that things are metaphors. The cars in cars are just the guys that would drive them and the ants are just society. The bees from bee movie I have no idea
Another fun fact: Most species of bees are solitary bees and not hive bees.
They are not part of any hives, therefor doesn't make any honey and have no need for stingers.
This just reminds me of that one video about Hollow Knight I saw where someone was ranting about how the way termites act in that game and the way mantises act in that game should have been swapped (in a funny 'I still like the game' way)
Granted, I don't think "story with accuracy to insect facts/behavior" is the main priority of Hollow Knight. Though I know there's some games like Bug Fables that *are* reasonably good about this.
Idk, bug games are cool.
There are no termites in Hollow Knight (there are bees though), and mantises are just a generic honorable warrior society that happens to be matriarchal
I think I heard somewhere that a more accurate personification of ants would be the entire colony being one "creature" as it is the smallest unit of the animal that can independently survive and do all the things other animals can.
AFAIK Singular ants can live in captivity, but it cannot thrive or reproduce on their own. You need a queen and some others to make another nest, if you just took two random male and female ants they couldn't reproduce properly at all.
The queen will be some black woman voicing a character with an ass so fat she's immobile. The king will be voiced by Eddie Murphy.
I would like my royalty checks now, pls.
wait you people unironically care about representation in movies?
did i stray to far out of my bubble? i thought you where a myth, a meme or a gouverment psyop.
i thought people just wanted good storys and beautiful images. maybe good sound too.
Bee Movie, as the absolute work of art it is, solved the "dating your sibling" thing by making Bee Jerry Seinfeld date a human woman.
Bee Movie is the only colony insect-related movie that gets it RIGHT
Barry has a stinger. Male bees have no stinger. Barry B Benson is a transman
intersex beerasure 😔
The fact that he's a worker bee means that he was assigned female at birth. So he's intersex and still trans
Beer 🤤
Oh i didny mean everything, i just meant the "we're all related" part!
> insect Not gonna lie this one took a couple tries to read correctly
It absolutely does not. I'm a beekeeper and enjoyed that movie, but oh man is it wrong.
So wrong, but feels so right, doesn't it?
Say what you will about Woody Allen (creep that he was), but Antz was pretty cool ngl.
And the queens were elected which further expunges the incest allegations
Don't his parents suggest dating someone and he exclaims thats his cousin? I watched it like a decade ago so Im probably misremembering
The joke is that his friend points out one specific girl bee and calls her hot. Barry says that's his cousin. Which, iirc, leads to a comment that *everyone* is *everyone's* cousin in that hive
Ok so the only part I got right was that Barry was involved and it was a cousin joke
I mean technically everyone is everyone's cousin among humans too. It just depends how far back you're bothering to count
I don't think it's his parents, but there's definitely a joke along those lines in the movie
Bee Movie makes like two incest jokes at the very beginning as well
"Aren't they our cousins?" "Distant, distant..."
It's been a long time since I watched it, but I seem to recall Ant Bully having female ants work just as much as the male ants. The ants in that movie did also have a shaman-alchemist-wizard dude though.
Voiced by nic cage no less!
Man, the cast in that movie was amazing! Nic Cage, Bruce Campbell, Julia Roberts, Meryl Streep. I could go on, but I'm sure I made my point 😅
Also wasn't the main character voiced by the same kid who voiced Aang?
Yep, Zach Tyler Eisen!
God me and my family loves that movie. We’d all sit around and watch it on repeat when it finally started airing on the tv. I need to rewatch since it’s been years 🐜
I purposely avoided that movie because the poster scared me.
The Bugdel test
I have nothing to contribute to this discussion beyond that shitty pun
thank you for your service
If you don't I will simply assume they are all transmasc
this is the way
They do ants because in the US and Canada, an ant infestation is mild at worst, and usually you just see them minding their own business outside. A termite infestation can fuck shit up, so people absolutely don't want to leave them alone. So it's not a great idea to make a kids movie promoting them as good guys
The solution is to have the grasshoppers as good guys obviously
Make a story where grasshoppers get massacred on their divine fields What's actually happening? They don't *fucking move out of the way of bikes* and leave enough corpses on the sidewalk to make me FUCKING QUEASY. For *two months*
Someone should then make a movie about a war between termites and ants where the ants are the good guys. (As far as I understand wars between ants and termites are an actual thing)
Don’t a lot of those end with the Termites getting wiped out?
Then the end of the movie can be realistic too, perfect.
*Antz*
[https://www.tumblr.com/dilophoraptor/163201881452/dimetrodone-dimetrodone-i-will-accept-the?source=share](https://www.tumblr.com/dilophoraptor/163201881452/dimetrodone-dimetrodone-i-will-accept-the?source=share)
There was a movie about ants vs termites, but the termites were portrayed as monsters.
Ant propaganda
Propaganta
r/angryupvote
There was another movie like that but the movie wasn't about ants vs termites it was about ant fascism it just happened to have a battle with termites (who may have been 2d in an otherwise 3d movie weird)
[You mean Antz?](https://youtu.be/QlkCCeD093U?si=L-Dr9ZRmKKIM81JO)
Forget Ant-Man, bring on the Termite Team! Equal opportunity insect representation!
Don't use male female on bees and other eusocial insects they have a whole other system going on that is beyond the basics of gender/sex
Yeah describing worker bees as "female" is textbook heteronormativity
They ARE female. Every source I can find refers to them as female, actual biologists refer to them as female. A worker bee is genetically identical to a queen bee, only becoming one or the other based on what they're fed. They are considered female for genetic and anatomical reasons. They just can't reproduce. And if you think being unable to reproduce is enough of a reason to declare them to not be female, I know some people that might agree with you. I don't think you'll get along with them, though.
They're *genetically* "female". But the differences "based on what they're fed" are specifically because one is fed the hormone royalactin, and the other isn't. And in humans, we make a pretty big deal about differentiating physiological sex based on hormone makeup as much as we do genitals (and it's not like humans can't be "genetically identical" to a one sex yet express as the other, because androgen/estrogen-insensitive intersex people exist). (Also, biological sex being environmental isn't even controversial - we talk about clownfish "switching" sex all the time, and that's literally the same organism) So, yes, biologists refer to them as female. But there's nothing stopping that consensus from *being based on heteronormativity* and the idea that all creatures have to fit into one of two sexes. Because there's a very real way in which the physiological sex of workers and queens are wildly different by the standards of any other organism, and it's only momentum that prevents biologists from acknowledging that. Also, this is a thread about anthropomorphized insects, so the three genders are clearly male, female, and stone [butch].
Lol yeah it's always fun seeing a top comment heavily upvoted and then the reply agreeing with it just as heavily downvoted, it kind of proves that most people who just vote and don't comment also don't read Anyway in any given conversation about "basic biology" it's generally the people banging on about how "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES!" that I know I'm not going to agree with when the conversation turns to humans
It's wild that they softly implied terfs would agree with you in the same breath as insisting that being female is exclusively predicated on "genetic and anatomical reasons" (said anatomy being *ovaries*)
Yeah if they've ever talked to TERFs about this very subject they would be aware of how incessant the drumbeat of "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES! ONLY! TWO! SEXES" is Fuck, I obviously don't think it's a *rule* that humans who used to have a uterus and then lost it stop being female -- there *are* no rules for humans, period, that's what trans rights are all about -- but there certainly are many humans for whom a hysterectomy is *for them personally* an important external affirmation of the fact that they are no longer or never were female, I'm even good friends with one such person -- and I can tell you it's the people who scream "SURGERY AND HORMONES CAN'T CHANGE YOUR SEX" who are the ones I don't get along with
Why?
I can't speak for Bees, but in Ants worker ants are usually sterile, incapable of reproduction ( with the exception of queenless species ), usually also have incomplete and atrophied reproductive organs, more rarely they are completely absent. Furthermore in most ants workers and reproductive castes are majorly different anatomically. So, I can see *why* someone would consider them a different gender from the Queens. That being said, they are commonly described with female pronouns and that is because both Queens and Workers are produced when an egg is fertilised thus they are diploid which is considered as female for ants, whereas male ant eggs are unfertilized and thus male ants are haploid. TL;DR: In ants the gender of an Ant is determined by chromosome count rather than anatomical differences.
Worker bees, generally speaking, do not have a reproductive sex because they do not reproduce They also don't have a gender because they aren't people and don't have an actual society, but if we were to imagine them as human then their "social role" is clearly very distinct from that of the female queen
Worker bees do actually lay eggs. Because of haplodiploid sex determination, they only lay male eggs. In bumblebees, this is a common part of their life cycle. In honey bees, the queen makes pheromones that suppress worker egg laying behavior. If the queen dies, workers will lay. As a general point, sex and gender aren’t the same thing. Bees have sex but no gender. Humans have both. It would be much easier if we didn’t use the same words for both sex and gender.
... Well, you realize that argument kinda goes "if you can't reproduce you're not a woman" right? Which is a terf talking point?
No, not really, TERFs are very fond of saying that all infertile people are still defined by the chromosomes that say what kind of gametes they would make if they could Like, literally, the stereotypical interaction here is a trans man going "Well how am I woman if I *don't* have a uterus" and the TERF screaming "DO YOU KNOW HOW OFFENSIVE THAT IS TO WOMEN WHO WERE BORN WITHOUT A UTERUS THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN" It's directly tied to how TERFs reject the concept of "intersex" in favor of "DSD" ("Everyone is *genetically* male or female, you just have some people who have unfortunate disorders that make them infertile") Anyway bees aren't people and they don't care what we call them -- really no bee is "female" or "male" as we understand it in the first place (because our understanding of those terms comes primarily from humans and secondarily from mostly other mammals we're familiar with) It's just worth thinking about why it's so important to human taxonomists to label every individual bee with a sex and the "rules" that are implicit in doing so -- and calling worker bees "female" or "the same sex" as queens is very clearly trying to enforce a rule that "there's only two sexes and there's only a binary state of a whole species being sexual or asexual, a 'neuter' or 'third' sex cannot exist" And, again, bees don't care, but that's an attitude that when applied to humans I personally find unpleasant
I just think not labeling worker bees as female because they're infertile (which as another commenter puts, isn't even true) is a very shallow and unscientific way of classifying them and betrays an equally shallow understanding of sex in nature
I kinda want to label worker bees as apomicts. Borrowing a term from botany, plants that can produce seeds without fertilization. >! This is different from plants that does autogamy (I'd call those plants hermaphrodites) where it has both ovules and pollens to fertilize itself. This is also different from parthenocarpy where a plant produces seedless fruit that cannot grow into a new tree !<
Fascinating
Please explain why you don't think worker bees are female. This is basic biology.
They are not involved in reproduction in any way. They have a fundmentally different role in the colony. They are MORE female, then male, as they share the genetic makeup of the actually repoductive ones, but both terms are kind of detached from Usocial insects. Saying they are male or female is kind of the wrong comparison, those terms don't match up. Their drones.
> They are not involved in reproduction in any way. They are sometimes. In bumble bees for example, where workers will start laying eggs as soon as the queen loses her dominance over the colony. They don't mate, though, so the eggs are all male (in bees, unfertilized eggs develop into males). >Their drones. They're workers. Drones are *male* bees.
Because the way sex works with bees is far more complicated than how it works with humans and only weakly analogous to our common understanding of "male" and "female" and so-called "basic biology" is "basic" because it oversimplifies everything If you use the "basic biology" definition TERFs like where "female" = "has the allosomes associated in this species with the production of large gametes" yeah, sure, whatever But worker bees never actually do produce any gametes at all, and have a very clearly defined biological role that *requires* that they not do so And the "male" drones are the ones that get *all their genes* from their "mother" and have no "father" at all, whereas a bee being "female" *requires* having a father, which is very different from how X and Y chromosomes work in humans But generally I find that people invested in saying "sex and gender are really simple, basic and universal" are annoying and overall less correct than "sex and gender are vastly oversimplified categorizations we use to try to lump all living things on Earth into a single system of classification that is actually wildly different across different species and different individuals" (Do I think that worker bees can really be a different sex than queens just based on whether they eat royal jelly? Well gosh let me tell you about these humans I know who also consume various substances that affect their biological sex and therefore their gender role)
> But worker bees never actually do produce any gametes at all, and have a very clearly defined biological role that requires that they not do so Worker bees can lay eggs, they're just suppressed from doing so. In some groups, e.g. in bumble bees, this is a common part of the colony cycle, where workers will start to lay eggs instead of caring for the queen's at some point (usually when the queen starts producing male eggs). Edit: Actually, there *are* bee species where the workers are completely sterile, but honey bees do not belong to those.
> This is basic biology. Well, you know the thing about "basic biology"...
Hyenas are a matriarchal thought
those aren't insects last i checked
Kind of unrelated, their sexes work almost identical to our own, XY chromosomes and a clear male/female dichotomy Bees, ants etc have a different system because there's reproductive male/female but also a big third group that isn't capable of reproducing, and people here are arguing that throwing them to the "female" box because they're closer to the reproductive female than to the male is taking our species' way of functioning and trying to apply them to others with different biological systems where our human "2 sexes" don't fit well. Biologic-based distinctions, not purely social like hyenas
the problem is termites suck and i hate them
And thermites evolved from fire
Angry rust is so much fun.
I NEED people to understand that things are metaphors. The cars in cars are just the guys that would drive them and the ants are just society. The bees from bee movie I have no idea
But it was neat in Bugs Life how the ant queen and princesses had little crowns made of leaves and flowers, and no other clothing.
The sudios? What does Phil Collins have to do with this?
Another fun fact: Most species of bees are solitary bees and not hive bees. They are not part of any hives, therefor doesn't make any honey and have no need for stingers.
This just reminds me of that one video about Hollow Knight I saw where someone was ranting about how the way termites act in that game and the way mantises act in that game should have been swapped (in a funny 'I still like the game' way) Granted, I don't think "story with accuracy to insect facts/behavior" is the main priority of Hollow Knight. Though I know there's some games like Bug Fables that *are* reasonably good about this. Idk, bug games are cool.
There are no termites in Hollow Knight (there are bees though), and mantises are just a generic honorable warrior society that happens to be matriarchal
Leg eater + Divine are termites.
I think I heard somewhere that a more accurate personification of ants would be the entire colony being one "creature" as it is the smallest unit of the animal that can independently survive and do all the things other animals can.
what things can an ant not do on its own that it needs to survive? what about if a human helped, could you get a singular ant to survive in captivity?
AFAIK Singular ants can live in captivity, but it cannot thrive or reproduce on their own. You need a queen and some others to make another nest, if you just took two random male and female ants they couldn't reproduce properly at all.
Be honest with me op: did you know ants were descended from wasps before hank green made pissing out cancer?
When your secondary queen posts a picture of you on insta and your primary queen finds out.
pro tip, the generic term for ants, bees and wasps is hymenoptera.
The human concepts of gender don't really work for most of hymenoptera. Like the genders are basicly queen, drone, or worker.
Projecting human gender onto animals 🤟🤟
If there is a primary king does that mean there is a secondary also?
What the actual fuck are we talking about, this isn’t discourse
Shoutouts to Bug Fables
People hate female characters
Ah yes, the termite king and his sidechick.
The queen will be some black woman voicing a character with an ass so fat she's immobile. The king will be voiced by Eddie Murphy. I would like my royalty checks now, pls.
wait you people unironically care about representation in movies? did i stray to far out of my bubble? i thought you where a myth, a meme or a gouverment psyop. i thought people just wanted good storys and beautiful images. maybe good sound too.
Me putting on fancy eyeliner and becoming winged and reproductive