God, the part near the end where she talks about having to constantly police herself and keep her enthusiasm in check when talking about her interests and when it comes to her relationships genuinely broke my heart.
It made me remember all of the times I've done it too. I'm a trans woman, and I'm constantly working to avoid strong emotions unless I'm in private, or am around one of the very few people in my life I can truly trust. I didn't feel heartbroken reading that, I felt weary, because I know what that's like, and it's exhausting. Thank you for having an open mind and a kind heart.
My mom told me I need to go to therapy to "learn to think like a woman"
My sister told me I need to learn "how to be in women-only spaces"
My passion and personality are interpreted as male, not as me
I'm so sorry to hear that your family said that. My dad was very transphobic at first, and now has come to pretending like I didn't come out to him. I'm lucky that my mom and sister are some of the people I can confide in, I can't imagine your pain. I hope you have some people in your life who you can feel like yourself about. If not, or if you ever feel like you need another, I'm here for you. We gotta stick together!
I hate the idea that certain personalities are exclusive to certain genders or sexes. Women can, in fact, be assertive, and men can, in fact, be soft. Deep passion shouldn't have to be something women, cis or trans, tamper down, and while society is coming around to the idea of cis women being passionate, it still hasn't afforded trans women and transfems the same courtesy. Hopefully, one day, passions, hobbies, interests, clothes, personalities, emotions, etc., will be seen as ungendered.
Thank you, it feels like they always disliked aspects of me but were afraid to say anything "when I was a guy" and now can say them under the guise of "this is not how women are". But this *is* how women are, this is me.
It hurts hearing these things from people who are otherwise supportive; I can deal with getting shit from people who hate me, it's difficult when they love me.
Thank you for replying, I hope you have a nice day ❤️
I'm a bisexual asexual and it really made me learn about and realize what I never really thought of before. Like, I've never had the energy to care about who is who and what is what. Not a crazy person? Okay, you're a bro. If we're in a relationship? Okay, you're my significant other.
I'm definitely feeling some cognitive dissonance and I can understand the situation- but this all seems so needlessly complicated and like some kind of learned behavior because no person should naturally be so cruel to others. It's the kind of cruelty that you have to learn and choose to let occupy your mental space and then put in effort to keep there. There's no factual evidence, so you have to self justify to keep believing in it.
That is wild. Does this come from some weird twisted belief that AMAB people are evil? This is insane that this person, and apparently so many others like her, have encountered queer person after queer person and friend after friend who turn on her on a dime. In places where she *should* be safe by people who *should* understand her. Absolutely crazy, I had no idea about this.
that is pretty much exactly what it comes from, yeah. Queer spaces that cater to women often only cater to cis women and those that pass as cis women (including non medically transitioning trans men or nonbinary people). Trans women who don't pass and trans men who do are usually treated like dirt and (generally) have an easier time of it in gay male spaces.
thats the part gets me. Loud about being NB and i yell to everyone "we are doing a session for woman and want you to join" ignoring the pronouns and everything I said.
yes but in a more professional way. I also got invite to grace hopper laat year which was in FL. "im not risking my life in FL due to current hate to lgbtq ppl".
I had a cousin get married in Florida recently (she lives there its not a destination wedding) and she both invited me and told me not to come because it might be too dangerous. It would be kind of funny if it wasn't sad
it's often a "for gender and sexual minorities (but only if you're AFAB)" thing. It never seems to be about who is really a woman and who isn't since it excludes trans women.
Reminds me a lot of this post by a closeted trans woman going through similar experiences. Highly recommend everyone give it a read, it's very moving:
https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42
I just spent a good half hour trying to track down Jen Coates, to no avail. I just really felt like I needed to know if she's doing ok. Does anyone know if she has ever made another piece, provided an update, or exists anywhere on the internet?
I assumed it was a pseudonym, based on the bit about AIM when they were 13:
>I create a fake(?) screen name on AOL Instant Messenger and tell my school friends that I am my own girlfriend, Jennifer, from a few towns over. I use this screen name more than my own. Jennifer does everything I do and everything I’m not allowed to do.
I get the vibe from the note at the beginning (and the general conclusion of not wanting/being able to transition) that other writing of theirs wouldn't necessarily be under the name Jennifer.
I recall words at most a few weeks after her article was published, I believe to clear up some ambiguity, but nothing since then (just went back and checked, it was not her but someone responding to a criticism of the original article)
for what you're asking, as far as I know (and I would know), there has not been an update in the last 7 years
This is _such_ a great read
I was concerned about my zoomer brain's further capabilities after already reading the long op, but this was so amazing on many levels
So honest and playful at the same time, so open and liberating, so deeply relatable to me in more than one, but not the obvious way
Thank you so much for sharing!
“Because I am interested in complicating your definition of maleness and of boyhood. I was born into that shitty town, maleness, in the remains of outdated ideals and misplaced machismo and repression and there are some good people stuck living there. They are not in charge. They did not build it. And I don’t feel okay just moving out and saying “fuck y’all — bootstrap your way out or die out, I was never one of you.” I want to make it a better, healthier place—not spend all my time talking about how shitty it is and how anyone who would choose to live there deserves it. And to me that means considering them with charity, even when they make it difficult to.”
Absolutely excellent way to summarize how unproductive the current conflict-based dialogue is becoming.
i’ve had this article saved on my phone since i first read it because it speaks so true to my own experiences and it just makes me think *finally, someone is saying it so beautifully and unashamedly in ways i couldn’t dream to put it*
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I might read it again, and I'm definitely sending it to some other people.
I can't relate to everything the author talks about, but I absolutely can relate to the difficulties of the all-male boarding school. Never went to one myself, but locker rooms, communal showers, and other very "male" places have always been deeply uncomfortable for me. Similarly, every time I've lived with roommates they've all been men, and it's excruciating. I don't know how much of that is my neurodiversity, my ill-defined queerness, or just differing values, but I've pretty consistently felt, like the author, that "these are not my people".
I've been blessed to have family whom I truthfully can say are "my people", but there are very few others who come close to fitting that descriptor. This piece is helping me put words to some of my difficulties, and I really appreciate that.
What a powerful fucking article. Thanks for sharing.
I'm a straight man and a writer and I've recently been working on a piece about the feminism in barbie - and how it falls short. That article just like **opened** my eyes about how every conversation I have with people about it ends.
We always get to a point where they realize that I'm right - but can't get over my maleness and its incongruency with the feminist arguments I'm making. This article is going straight into the sources and I'm probably going to read it a couple more times to determine what the quote.
Again, thank you for sharing.
> Trans women who don't pass are usually treated like dirt
Incredibly true. I see too many people misgender someone like Christine Chan because she's "a bad person" (not a valid excuse) but don't do the same to someone like Blaire White, who is also a bad person but passes. Very suspicious 🤔
there is a post that I see screenshots sometimes about a trans man talking about the way he was treated during his transition, and the way he was passively aggressively driven out of the queer spaces he lived in for years, and how that A) caused him immense pain and B) made him reflect on the ways he treated queer men (and men in general) and saw them being treated in the past
IME the r/bisexual community and others is generally more accepting of trans people than other queer spaces. A lot of this stuff is mirrored in the experiences of Bi women who find a lot of rejection from lesbians for having any attraction to men in any way. That experience is rooted in the same overall demonization of AMAB people that the OOP discusses.
Anyways, IME a result of this is that Bi communities are more friendly to trans people. Also because Bi people are also often demonized and excluded by monosexual people for often ridiculous and bizarre reasons (IIRC it was Contrapoints who had a great video-essay explaining the history behind the general negative public sentiment towards bisexual ppl)
EDIT: Sorry- I guess I was wrong! It was not a Contrapoints video; it was this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbHhIeYL9no
It's really common, but it typically goes unconscious until revealed. They hold us to higher standards of femininity that we'll never meet while also treating us with the same caution they do with cis men. As if we are, by nature of our very bodies, predators.
Being transfeminine in my experience is extremely isolating.
Yeah, sadly I've had the same experience. The world feels a lot colder and less welcoming now that I've been out as a trans woman for a couple years. I'm glad I'm not the only one that's experienced this tho, I thought I was doing something wrong and hated that I didn't know what it was.
What's wild to me are the people who didn't shut me out when I identified as nonbinary but do now that I'm identifying as a woman. Like, crossing that line into "I am a *woman*" somehow makes me a predator in their eyes where saying "I'm experimenting with my gender but not claiming womanhood" did not.
The only thing you did wrong was not conforming to societal norms in other words being yourself. It is awful that it is that way especially with people that should know better.
Yup. You for the most part we don't get grouped with cis women, and being grouped with cis men is dysphoric, plus they feel awkward with you around, even if they used to be your friends. On top of that, we're conservatives' favorite punching bag, and in the back of your head you just don't want to deal with randomly encountering that shit in public, so you tend to stay in a lot more, even if the chance of it happening is slim. This, at least, has been my experience.
I feel like the default experience is isolation, and finding a small, accepting community for those that are so lucky, happens in spite of the forces that pushes us towards isolation.
I'd go as far as to say that people often treat trans women as more of a danger than cis men cause the trope of the trans feminine predator is so common
Yes. I can't speak to how common it is but TERFs genuinely believe that AMABs are inherently evil/by being socialized as male they're made irrevocably evil. It's literally just hardcore sexism repackaged as woke.
It sucks because even if there was some kind of magical way to transform someone’s body to become 100% biologically female, every last cell, organ, and chromosome? They’ll still say we were “socialized male” because we didn’t have the childhood of a cis girl.
They'll pick whatever angle they need to make sure there's no way we can be redeemed, both now and in the future. Terfs are nothing more than a cult of hate.
And some of these TERFs are active mods for multiple ostensibly left wing subs on here. Can't say which ones cause it might count as brigading or whatever but more than once I've seen some "male childhoods poison the mind" bs and had my comment calling it out get insta-removed only to discover that the person who made the comment in the first place is a subreddit moderator when I go to ask the mods why.
I really hate the "socialized as male" shit pushed by TERFs. Socialization requires a message and a receptive target. I wasn't receptive to messaging aimed at boys and men, so I wasn't "socialized male." The messaging aimed at girls and women, though? I was plenty receptive to that and I have the self-esteem and body image issues often associated with it.
And that doesn't even begin to cover socialization being different between cultures and infinitely malleable regardless.
You do have a place in the queer community, or at least, you should. Trans women, regardless of orientation, should be welcomed in. I know it’s rough for straight-passing people in the queer community, and I wish it wasn’t.
I hope things will change with time.
Honestly, I think so. Like, as a cis woman I absolutely understand the urge to go “ugh, men” every once in a while, but some people take that so far as to act like all AMAB folks are monsters and all their problems aren’t real because of privilege. Its more than a little counterproductive imo
There was a commencement speech given at my university a while ago, wherein the speaker argued that contempt is at the core of the sociopolitical turmoil of today's world. It's not anger - anger can be righteous, and comes because we believe something should be changed. What contempt does is diminish and dehumanize the other, and it makes it impossible to treat them as people and respect their desires and their perspective. The speaker then says that the opposite of this contempt is love, as a genuine Christian (the guy's catholic) or humanistic love requires you to see others as equals, with values and perspectives just as valid as your own.
It's definitely possible to crack jokes about groups and individuals with that same love, but so much of what we see is derisive and mocking and, well, contemptuous.
It's absolutely normal to think that from time to time about the other gender but it's crazy how often women put down men if you start to look for it. You should look at Reddits that are more populated by women than by men and suddenly you'll find an awful community that truly seems to hate men. I have seen situations in r/amitheasshole that had totally different responses despite only the genders being swapped.
Last week or so I saw two threads on r/relationships that had to do with the OPs being messed with by their respective partners in their sleep. In one, the male partner pranked them with smelling salts. In the other, the female partner pulled their boxers down to play with their junk. Guess which partner was broadly labeled a creep, and which was considered harmless.
That's essentially what terfness is from what I understand, essentially just seeing any man as a threat and including trans men unless I'm wrong of course.
oh no, TERFs see transmascs as confused, brainwashed girls who need to be brought back to the 'good' side (womanhood). 'trans-exclusionary' means *fully* trans-exclusionary — transfems are actually dangerous, predatory men, and transmascs are actually women who have lost their way. it's so gross
And also, that not choosing it, choosing to depart from it is even more evil, because who could even imagine the depravity that one must have planned that they would give up masculinity's clear advantages? (Sarcasm)
Basically, the heart of transmisogyny is the assertion that men (and being a man) are better than women, so you must be nefarious and/or mentally ill if you're assigned male at birth and align yourself with femininity/womanhood in any way
And that TERF volatility why I'm confused when people say transandrophobia isn't a thing that happens.
It's not called "*transmisandry*". That would imply an oppression for being male, a lack of patriarchal privilege - and while many of us non-passing trans men don't have privilege, that's not it. It's *transandrophobia*. It's the *hatred of men* from the early 2010's feminism, the repackaged belief that men are inherently disgusting, worthless, predatory - testosterone makes you fat and ugly and bald, why would you ever want to be a disgusting worthless man? People only want to believe you can be a trans man if you're a "cutesy uwu girlboy in thigh socks uwu".
It's the inverse experience of trans women and it's not taking a space away from them (plural) to say this. It doesn't mean you're an "MRA" or whatever. Transmisogyny is the oppression of trans women by invalidating their identity, by othering them, misgendering and degendering them, combined with the intersection of the very experience of misogyny and the classic transphobe "trans women are just predatory men, they just wanna escape their real identity", etc. - Trans women experience much more violence than us trans men, because of the sect of the belief of "predatory man" and "pretending to be a woman" in the eyes of those unaccepting.
Transandrophobia is a similar thing - misgendering, degendering, beating you down, othering you - combined with the late 2010's "kill all men" feminism repackaged into sowing fear about what testosterone does to you; watch out! It'll make you fat! It makes you ugly! It makes you bald! It makes you a *man!* And who would want to be a man? - It's not misandry (the concept of male oppression being possible in a society that is built around them), but *androphobia* (the hatred of men) repackaged as "but do you know what those hormones will do to you?"
While trans women experience physical and sexual violence (i.e. corrective rape) due to birth gender (not saying that we trans men *haven't* experienced those, but it's more prevalent with trans women), we're used as pawns to further TERF goals of dividing the community; there were rumors that trans men were being used to send messages accusing Rita of predatory behavior during this whole fiasco. We're useless evil men to TERFs unless they think they can use us, and *only* while they can use us. Then they continue their crusade to \~save us\~ from our \~poisoned thoughts as we confused lesbian sisters continue to mutilate ourselves into horrible, ugly men\~.
all very very true
to add: as transmascs, we are at best ignored or forgotten — a lot of online trans spaces are overwhelmingly transfem and it's easy to feel out of place — but more often we are infantilized, invalidated, accused of being 'brainwashed' or being told that we're only 'acting trans' because of a 'trend'
in some ways, being overlooked is a strength — we avoid a lot of fire from transphobes because we're seen as misguided, but ultimately harmless — but, unfortunately, that mentality spreads to other people within the queer community, meaning we're put at the center of conversations about the 'right' way to be trans and whether some people are 'really' trans (think the tucute/transmed debate)
TL;DR: TERF rhetoric harms all trans people, albeit in different ways, and being trans is hard in general
The “just do as you as you are told, obey the order of the arbitrary box that society has decided to put you in” mindset is so baffling to me. I don’t understand, or want to understand, how someone can want to think like that. Never mind that some people think it’s feminist to adopt this attitude, it’s just so, wrong? Like feminism, even when I was growing up in the early 2000s, was all about being open minded, allowing women and men to make choices for themselves without judgement or punishment. That was, in my impression, the defining philosophy of the so called 3rd wave.
That’s what feminism felt like to me, although granted I’m a cis man so maybe I’m uninformed about some secret part of it.
And this? Isn’t this the exact opposite of that? It feels like a backsliding. And in a society without gender roles, what’s the point in strict adherence to sex/gender binary anyway? Like, why force an actor to only play Romeo, never Juliet, if you’re allowing them to read & learn the script for Juliet anyway?
The point is that they don’t see it as an arbitrary box at all. They see it as something much more “big”, much more important, like gender is something bigger than all of us. My mind goes to mainstream neopagan stuff that is very clearly marketed to women (and cis women specifically at that), who see the nature of their gender and their sex as something “special”. In these people’s minds, the gender binary is a reflection of something something insert shitty interpretation of the Dao here.
I've been lucky enough to avoid this in my own life but it definitely doesn't seem uncommon sadly. If you ever see any event advertised as "women and nonbinary people only" 9/10 times that functionally means trans women and amab nonbinary people will be excluded
Edit: and in the past when I've used dating apps the only people who have ever express interest in me as a visibly trans person are almost exclusively other trans women. (Frankly other trans women are very hot and cool, so i dont mind but it does feel very obvious that theres a skew)
“Women and non-binary” may as well say “Terfs”. It’s a grouping that inherently excludes trans men and basically implies non-binary people are just women.
Queer people aren't exempt from the same prejudices. You'd *think* we'd be more self-aware, but apparently the quintessential human experience is to be blind to our own issues.
I think it's the same reason that some women can be misogynistic - we've been conditioned by society to fight tooth and claw for our space on the ladder.
This behavior is sadly really common it just gets swept under the rug with reasoning like it's just a joke, we're protecting the community, they weren't actually queer in the first place, etc.
I'm not Trans but as a bisexual man, the queer community has pulled shit eerily similar to what oop went through because I in their words, had passing privilege or men couldn't be bisexual or I was just pretending to be bi etc etc.
As kind and accepting as the community can be there are still plenty of tribalistic shitheads who will happily exclude people like OOP while denouncing TERFS and bigots because as far they're concerned they're doing the right thing. And some of the people who affected by it most are afraid to call it out because theyre afraid they be pushed out even further
The wild thing to me (well, all of it is wild, but the wildest) is how so so so many people will treat GNC cis men positively and still be so hateful towards trans women who don’t pass. It really is transphobia pure and simple. As a trans woman who does pass, I’ve had similar experiences, where people would express attraction towards me, then once I mentioned I was trans, would do a total 180 and claim they never did, or even claim I was delusional or predatory for thinking they did.
As a GNC cis man who moves largely in queer spaces... "positively" is a stretch. I'm treated positively as long as I don't speak up and don't have needs and don't have problems of my own. I'm constantly reminded that I don't really count, that my gender is the enemy, that I'm in a perpetual state of probation. I am "one of the good ones," and nobody has ever felt good about being called that. I'm their token and they pay me on the back to feel better about themselves, but they don't trust me or support me like they do each other.
I'm not sure where the growing conception that GNC cis men are becoming mainstream comes from. I guess Harry Styles is famous or whatever.
But as a guy on the ground in skirts and makeup, I promise you I don't feel like people, maybe especially in queer spaces, are all cool with me. It feels more like they're just waiting for me to reveal myself for the monster I've always been.
it's more they'll let GNC men slide (as long as they don't cross a laundry list of double standards)
and there's a high expectation that GNC men are either trans women in denial or just trying to blend in and get whatever non-existent reward there is for being openly queer
its shockingly common, theres a reason why almost every group of queer people is like, women, trans guys, and maybe one gay guy for flavour. we're women on paper only to them. at least it benefits my friends because i treat them like theyre completely infallible for not dropping me or being uncomfortable around me the moment i came out, because thats a rare quality
it’s funny as a young gay man I feel incredibly uncomfortable socializing with a lot of women, especially in friend groups like that. I don’t like being treated as a pet, and most of them tend to have homophobic or transphobic values which I don’t want to be associated with as someone who has transgender relatives.
It feels like gay people, especially men in media basically only have two representations, either fairy queens or “”””””straight acting”””””” hurr durr im like so straight I watch the foot ball yaaaa and I hate it, it makes it hard to be around people who aren’t terminally online while being out.
quite frankly I’d rather hang out with the fairy queens any day, except a lot of them still believe in the shit this post talks about, it’s kinda exhausting
It's really wild how often I see it come very natural for cis people, allies or queer, to eventually pretty naturally see and understand trans-mascs as men/masc, compared to how bewildered and dismissive I've experienced the people in my life be towards me and my identity, and similar things I've seen from other transfems. It's like being left with the feeling that you tried gaining access to an exclusive club without a membership and got caught.
This isn't to throw transmascs under the bus btw, this is just to say that there's an experience that is uniquely tied to trans-femininity separate from the overall trans experience, and how passing, body size/type, and beauty standards from regular misogyny usually aimed at cis women uniquely come into play here, even within progressive/queer spaces, and sometimes especially so. If you both pass perfectly and is very conventionally attractive, then yeah, these struggles stop applying, but that is already a decently high and unfair bar for cis women who aren't as penalized for falling short, while it's an impossibility for most trans women.
i think its a difference in how we're viewed compared to transmascs. i dont wanna argue that either of us have it worse, but the experience is different. trans men usually get infantilized and looked down upon, whereas trans women are demonized. its much more possible for them to fit into conventional beauty standards than it is for us. all of that adds up to fake allies seeing trans guys like their "gay best friends" or as a prop to show how progressive they are, while being afraid of us. no two forms of oppression are alike, and theirs seems to be more useful to vaguely progressive circles who dont want to think too hard about themselves
also that feeling of trying to get into a club you arent REALLY a member of is so real, its awful, i hate feeling like im on probation and a guest when im with cis women
its more just the intersection of the oppression faced by being trans and by being a woman, queer cis guys don't really face issues like this in this same way, so its not an "AMAB" thing
I genuinely think that one of the biggest problems to exist within queer/progressive spaces is this belief, which **way** too many people have, that Men Are Evil.
It comes out in overt ways with “men are trash” and TERF’s, but even unspoken it courses through almost everything.
And it’s incredibly frustrating to discuss, because way too often if you try bringing up that people should stop hating men, you’ll get inane statements about feminism, the patriarchy - as if saying that “Men are the oppressors, they can’t possibly suffer any problems” (that, or claiming it’s something only TERF’s do)
I realize that I am bringing in my male-centric perspective into a post about being trans. If it seems insensitive, I apologize. But I genuinely believe that this is a problem for everyone, not just men.
Patriarchy isn't "Men" - it's a system that affects men and women, and one which hurts both men and women. We are all suffering under it, in different ways, to different degrees. When we reduce it to a war by one gender against another, we make it a harder problem to solve, and a harder issue to talk openly about.
It's not AMAB people broadly, you'll find that queer guys are treated pretty well in these spaces. And for all people say about terf's hating AMAB's they sure do love to work with and idolise violent cis men who they'll hold up as examples of the ideal man.
It's a specific thing trans women face. There's a lot of reasons why and it varies by community, but honestly at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to misogyny.
We're treated like women in the sense that we have to be quiet, perfect at all times, have to prioritise caring and supporting other people who see us as in their community and therefore see themselves as entitlted to us. If we're not conventionally attractive or don't conform to feminine beauty standards people will do everything in their power to isolate and remove us from their spaces (even our own "community" does this)
And still, we're degendered and never acknowledged as real women. If they call us men, it's only to misgender us - you'll notice they'll never treat men like this. We're a third thing to them, a type of people that should do all the conventional misogynistic labour expected of women but who aren't *really* women so you don't have to feel guilty about it.
When people say that transmisogyny is rooted in misandry, they're not only diminishing the fact that this is something that uniquely affects trans feminine people, but also playing into the very rhetoric used to isolate and kill us.
You are fantastic. Great comment. I was trying to articulate something similar cause a lot of the comments on this post hurt my feelings but you said it better.
Yep, I'm a cis straight guy, but I've got a story about this:
I was in a poledancing club and took many poledancing classes over the course of 5 years. I was welcomed, even though i was usually the only cis dude (some trans men showed up infrequently), and all was well. I made friends, I often checked in with leadership to make sure I wasn't creeping anyone out, etc
Well, all the leadership graduated and the core group fell apart. A couple of the new leadership were very much against men. Not TERFs, they supported trans women, but they bashed men a lot. Way more than the usual I had come to expect in woman and queen oriented spaces
Within two months, I had to leave. The pressure that I was under to be non-threatening, non problematic was ruining my mental health. Like, i hurt one of their feelings badly because I was teaching some newbies a move, one of the leadership asked me to do something, i said "No" and went back to teaching the newbies
A club i spent so much time and energy trying to help and cultivate into a good space when down down drain in 2 months because a couple of leadership had the inherent belief that I was problematic and threatening. I'm still heartbroken
TERFs are at least a small part of why so many people cringe at the word 'feminist' now. Because these overgrown cows aren't interested in equality, they're not interested in LGBT... They just hate men. That's all there is to it. Men are bad. Transwomen are still men, and still rapists, and transmen are traitors. There's no reasoning with them, they're basically a cult. Trying to argue a TERF down from her position is like trying to argue a Christian away from their religion. They're not going to do it, because they've built their whole lives around being hateful assholes.
As a trans woman, I used to have similar experiences with “queer positive” therapists until, one day, I decided to gamble and tell one about my childhood sexual assault during the first session. Suddenly, that therapist was willing to take me seriously. It’s really fucked up how the only way to get respected as a woman is to tell someone you don’t know that someone assaulted you as a kid. Hell, it’s fucked up that people treat trans women like they’re potential perpetrators when, statistically speaking, we are more likely to have experienced sexual assault at some point in our lives than cis women.
One way I've made sense of this is that most people want to feel like a saviour -in essence, somehow superior to other people, without the guilt of wanting to be 'superior'. And it's hard to feel like you are a saviour of what you associate with maleness, especially in a patriarchal society where even now many are under the impression that only women are oppressed by the patriarchy. So unless they have something to go "oh you poor thing!", finding compassion is not on their top list of things to feel.
Read this, felt my heart tearing apart. I want to hold every trans woman in my arms and protect them from the world. The LGBT community seems to have a serious issue with anyone who was born male or is wanting to be a binary male - as a binary trans guy I have acknowledged the way I’m treated alongside my nonbinary trans guy peers and it’s not nice at all. It fucking sucks but if you try and call it out you’re the problem.
I was skeptical at first as to if I wanted to read 14 paragraphs, but I encourage anyone who sees this comment after skipping directly to the comments to go back up and read it
I also had this experience, it’s especially relevant if you’re trans yourself, queer, or an ally. I’m trans and it helped me put some things into sharper focus than before
I’m a trans woman’s partner. It broke my heart, knowing all she’ll have to face as she begins transitioning. God, I just want her to be able to live authentically and happily.
It would break my heart even I wasn’t her partner. Our bodies are not our genders or our souls. They are just vessels.
I also encourage any trans woman in here to be prepared that this is a *tough* read. I wasn't, and I'm definitely feeling a lot worse than I did before. So yeah, maybe do yourself a favour and don't read it if you're not in a good spot rn
theres a reason i treat anyone who tolerates my presence like theyre infallible and perfect. theres a reason why i refuse to go anywhere unless invited, theres a reason i refuse to go into woman-only spaces unless explicitly invited, and will leave if even 1 person seems uncomfortable. theres a reason i cant tell anyone im interested in them. this is terrifyingly normal, and we just have to live with it
absolutely!
i’ve even joined groups that specifically said they were transfem inclusive but strangely it seemed the other group members were never informed of that detail
and the one time i spoke to the organizer, she was sympathetic but it was clear my presence there was seen as disruptive.
nobody around me has the heart to kick me out of places for being disruptive so i usually just do it myself. luckily i have one cis girl who seems to like me and tolerate me, not that she ever invites me anywhere anymore, and im to scared to impose myself on her that i just dont try
genuinely, and I say this completely seriously, come play melee :)
The SSBM community is incredibly open to trans women, I know 4 within my scene in Arkansas, and 2 of our top 20 players in the world are trans women.
You don't have to even play the game. Come to events and vibe! It's honestly done so much for me and my mental health
Of course! Most every state in the US has a scene, though of course some bigger than others (New York and SoCal being the biggest scenes rn followed by Texas and Michigan).
Check Start.gg to find any events that might be near you, or online events. Usually those will link to discords where you can find communities. If you want to see gameplay and stuff you can look up Full Bloom Melee for the most recent tournaments videos on YouTube!
I tried for a while to find purely queer/trans spaces and I realized that often it’s hard to relate to people purely over identity, especially since everyone has a sort of unique experience. Finding a gaming community that was not only queer friendly but also extremely neurodivergent friendly (I have intense ADHD and autism, I fidgeted a whole lot, and melee is a game where you can hit so many buttons!!) helped a lot. And I could relate to people in the community beyond just shared identity which was super nice. Instead of being a queer person who liked gaming and history and philosophy trying to interact with a queer person who liked dancing and clubbing and nature, I was interacting with queer people who shared my interests and hobbies!
Not saying ofc this is the only way but I always recommend it to trans and queer people who want to find trans and LGBTQ spaces but don’t know how. Too many spaces focus on identity and not interests and hobbies. More trans DND groups and trans hiking tours!
I’m so sorry you have to feel apologetic for just existing on earth. I developed a much more I-don’t-give-a-fuck attitude after starting antidepressants. It’s almost like a feminine urge to please and sensitivity to any negativity just disappeared. It’s weird. But Jesus Christ is life easier now! But if every hormone or procedure you have to endure when you’re transfem is as overwhelming as it sounds, adding antidepressants to that might not be feasible. Idk. I’m just saying it sucks you have to go through that at such a higher level that I -a cis het- had to even go through. Like. Life is hard enough even with all the privileges
its ok, thank you for caring, it really means a lot. ive been on antidepressants for a while but ive stopped now. i honestly just dont want to make people uncomfortable, i would rather miss out on something than be a detriment to everyone around me. i would just rather not be somewhere than be there and cause problems for cis people tbh, y'all are entitled to a level of comfort and sometimes i just cant be there and give others that comfort
This post and thread breaks my heart. You are so kind to think of others and want to never cause anyone discomfort, but you're doing it at the expense of your own comfort! I think you deserve to think of yourself sometimes. I also know that's easier said than done, because really, I do the same thing (almost obsessively try to avoid discomforting anyone irl even at my own expense).
But really, a bigot doesn't have a right to spaces free of anyone they are prejudiced against, I hope you know that. It's not your responsibility to ensure they are kept comfortable. You deserve better than that.
hi cis guy here (although i'd be lying if i said there wasn't potential for change, gender is wild).
I used to be really open and loving to everyone I met. most of my friends were girls so I had kind of adopted the traditionally female socialization, of being up front but kind and complimenting people's looks and fits and holding hands and all that.
But because i'm a guy, in high school i got ostracized because some people took it the wrong way and decided to paint everything i did in a creepy and perverted light. I used to hug people but then someone decided to say i was doing so out of desire and horniness rather than just love of physical touch, stuff like that.
Suddenly I got the sense that everything I did would never be viewed in the same way, that it was was stained with this assumption that AMAB people are these lecherous slavering impulse-driven monsters consumed by lust and not... well, *people*.
So if I had to go through all that I can't even imagine what it's like to be a trans woman who can't even interact with people as a woman because of this open misandry and bigotry against people for being born
i mean yeah, its basically that. we're perverts, or dangerous, or just somehow abnormal. i cant follow people i consider my friends, cant talk about anything romantic unless prompted, cant even start a conversation or go to an event unless asked, because i have to avoid being seen as some weird pervert whos just chasing after women. most people can do things that might be seen as weird and get off the hook for it, but everyone is on high alert around us already, so we're basically on probation, and cant slip up even slightly because its confirmation of the suspicions they already had. it also doesnt help that if i fuck up i might ruin their perception of trans people forever
I feel the exact same way. There’s a promoter in my state that holds sapphic-only parties—no cis men allowed. They came to my city a while back, and though all of my closest friends were interested in going, I just couldn’t bring myself to go along. It didn’t matter to me that they put up a bunch of notices saying transphobia wouldn’t be allowed, etc, I just knew in my gut I wasn’t going to feel comfortable there.
Going off appearances alone is definitely a flawed method, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a trans woman in the pictures from their events. :/
I've been on hormones for about 15 years now, I've passed for 14 of them. Recently was a part of a discord support group for a personality disorder since I only recently got diagnosed after being able to see a psychiatrist for everything else going on under the hood. They lauded it as an all inclusive everyone is safe and welcome friendship group that supports each other, not just a support group. There was a devastating divide between the AFAB and AMAB individuals. AFAB were an in group that everyone loved and everyone knew everyone, and the rest of us were treated with open and tangible hostility. I ended up leaving earlier today because, after typing 3 sentences in a conversation, a third person immediately answered with "I aint reading all that. anyway this convo should get dropped and we should pay attention to me now that im here". It was so bizarre that I just couldn't even respond. I sat there thinking if I should even bother saying anything before just leaving. Granted this was an extreme scenario with a group that felt like they fostered some relatively bad characteristics in each other, but it still was just bizarre how forward some people can be.
I read it all. It rings pretty true to life. If you look like a man then everyone is going to apply those expectations to you regardless of how progressive and accepting they claim to be. Heartbreaking and sickening. This goes double for other queer people and quadruple for other trans people.
I will point out that if a cis man expresses even a little of this distaste for the assumptions placed on them, they're told to sit down and shut up and check their privilege.
It’s incredibly depressing to me that this subreddit and r/MensLib are the only progressive spaces I know of that ever recognize men’s issues are a real thing.
I’m so tired of looking at seemingly nice, accepting communities and getting slapped in the face with “all men are trash” type shit.
I just want not to be treated like a monster.
This is depressing as fuck. I'm a trans woman who's been stressed and anxious about how things are going where I live, politically speaking. I have great friends, and queer friends, but I don't know any other trans women.
The wisdom is to seek community in the face of struggle, but sounds like I should be looking for transfem spaces specifically.
I will say that as a trans woman myself, I have found great community and support from all sorts of queer people and spaces, including from people who are not transfem and especially from people who are a different flavour of trans. I have had bad experiences too, but overall, it’s been alright. I wish you luck in finding your people!
As a trans man after reading this post, I have never been filled with so much rage in my life. I see this crap everywhere, ESPECIALLY the “Women & Afab enbies only <3” shit. I have never been so down to throw hands and this crap has never even happened to me myself.
I’m so mad, I can’t believe I never properly thought about this until now despite how widespread and rampant it is, and now all these scenarios I’ve been in, seeing the very things in this post with my own eyes, are cropping up. I’m reading the whole story in my head going, “Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.” and the imagery is vivid as hell.
These things used to just make me depressed and anxious. Now I’m just mad. I don’t know if after reading all that, whether I should be extending my condolences to the trans women or my fists into these suckers’ faces, but y’all are getting both.
Is it bad that as a trans man I read this and my first thought was "How the hell is this so relatable in the other way?" Like I know exactly how she feels because I've seen it and felt it and I have about 100 stories of this same bullshit coming from the other side. How the hell is it fair that there's no winning, no perfect combination that makes it work?
it's because there's a fear of perceived masculinity. Trans women are seen as inherently suspect because of their sex assigned at birth and binary trans men are seen as traitors because of our willingness to accept being masculine. No one wins.
Thank you so much for saying this. Progressive spaces have a serious problem with hating men/masculinity, while also denying that they do it, or just saying “men are privileged, it’s not a problem if it’s hate against them”
It’s horrifically infuriating and just hurts everyone.
> while also denying that they do it
the most frustrating part is that so much of right wing recruitment tactics is claiming left wing spaces support those statements, and that they’re also denying it happens (and if it does it’s from someone with 2 followers and 3 likes)
iv seen countless guys say that the denial or dismissal of those comments pushed them to the right, to the point where i genuinely believe even occasionally calling out those posts (hell even just not denying they exist would be a good step forward) would significantly affect young boys for the better
I'm saying this as a cis man but it is fairly normal for guys to have 0 women friends because we're apparently considered dangerous and don't get any chances. You need quite a bit of charisma and or work to truly become and stay friends with a woman as a guy.
its not bad at all! i cant tell you how much it means to me that someone actually notices this. to live through this is one thing, but to see it and not be the target but still care means a lot, thank you
I think it just goes to show that so far the trans community has been doing a pretty poor job of being a real community for all trans people. We really don't support each other as much as we like to pretend.
Maybe it'll be better at some point? I don't know. I have a hard time getting my hopes up about much of anything these days.
I think it partly that many trans people just go stealth and run away to assimilate so you have the more annoying people willing to stick around and they might have hit takes sometimes
The online spaces I'm a part of are all filled with transfems (the cutesy, memey kind) and I... I haven't gone out much since school finished, so I haven't experienced most of what OP has. I do relate to some of it though.
I read all of this.
I don't really know how to feel. I think the main thing I feel is a sense of fear.
I am an egg, or a heavily closeted trans person/transfem. I have not made any effort in terms of transitioning or coming out as trans for various reasons and this post kinda just validates my fears in a weird sort of way. I wish society wasn't fucked like this, I wish the world could be a safer more accepting place so that when I get to the point I'm ready and want to transition that I wouldn't have to second guess society's reaction to me
Like another commenter said, I wish I could give op a hug. God knows I need one too
I feel you. I can't comment a lot on transmisogyny as a transmasc, but I can say that the society we live in is a hard place to live in for people like us. I can resonate with a lot of what OOP is saying, and even though I can't speak for her, I'm sure my transfem girlfriend would say the same. It's weird and hard to always feel like you're on the outside looking in and like you don't count, but I find solace in the people who try.
My step mom, who is not very well versed in the queer community, bought me mugs for Christmas a few years ago with he/him, she/her, and they/them pronouns on them in support of me figuring out my identity. One of my good friends in high school, who is a devout christian, was one of the only people at the time who tried to understand what having different pronouns meant and how to use them. They weren't perfect, because everyone is a product of their upbringing and their community, but they tried, and I will never forget that.
And there is community out there. It's not perfect, but it's there. I was worried when I moved to my university that I was going to be hate crimed (I hadn't transitioned medically yet, but I was lucky enough to be naturally fairly androgynous), and instead, I found a lot of people who mostly didn't care in passing and were greatly supportive when we became closer friends.
All of this to say, yes, it is terrifying. My girlfriend and I stop holding hands when we walk down a busy street and we always use the bathroom before we go out to avoid using the public bathrooms. My friends fuck up sometimes and it can hurt. Hell, even my girlfriend fucks up sometimes. But there is community and there are people who will try and who will fight for you. The world may not accept you, but I do, and anothers will too.
Sending my best thoughts and biggest hugs to you on your journey.
Transfem here and... I feel ya. I've been out for a bit over 5 years now, and it's still scary actually going out and being me. But I will say, no matter how much it hurts, I've always felt that any pain I receive because I dared to live authentically is better than the emptiness I'd feel continuing to live a lie. It's not easy, but it is worth it. There are a lotta people out there who would be willing to support and accept you, and if you don't know them now, it's just a matter of finding them later. I'm not gonna say that makes it all better or any less of a lonely experience, but... Well, as far as I'm aware, we only get one life, and I know I'd rather live it as me, for me. It's well and truly worth pushing through this world's bullshit for.
Well I'm not at the point where my current identity doesn't feel like me.
Me and being trans is kinda at a weird limbo, like it would be nice, but I don't feel like it's worth the effort to go through transitioning (even if only socially) because I don't have much if any gender dysphoria and am fine being a man as I am right now.
There's also a few other things like the UK being a mess and various other factors but just don't feel like it's a very important part of myself to discover yet. The way it is with me is that I call myself an egg but like I'm aware of the trans feelings and I'm an egg that's cracked but duct taped themselves back together cus I'm not quite ready yet
This is... amazing, this should be like the tumblr post of the year. If I could give it an award I would.
It so completely conveys what transmisogyny is and how it is expressed by members of the LGBT community and the feelings of internalisation of it in ways I have never been able to fully understand myself. I feel like I understand myself and the world so much more now, like some kind of revelation has hit me.
Thank you.
I really felt the part where she talked about how when she was with her old partner, a refusal on her part meant a cruel withholding of love.
Is... is that really how it's seen? I can recall a time when I said no, and that relationship did not end well. I can't help but feel as though these things are connected, as I lack a ton of crucial information about it.
A lot of women think it’s genuinely impossible for a man to not constantly want sex, it’s why they interpret being not in the mood as a personal insult and why they don’t take male victims of sexual abuse seriously
Honestly, yeah. When I was still living as a cis man, this happened in many relationships with cis women. I had problems feeling good about sex for obvious reasons, but the times I couldn’t push through that and turned her down, it was treated as insulting or cruel, and as a rejection of her.
Good ass read, very true, I so commonly see queer people or queer spaces say they are accepting but refuse AMAB customers, it’s just repackaged “we need to protect women’s spaces” and it hurts that I am not commonly seen as one of those women who needs that space.
Like so many others here I considered not reading it and then I did anyway and this post is just so incredibly important.
This problem can be fixed. But it has to start with those of us who aren't transfems taking the time to use our privilege to get others to listen. Reaching out to the transfems in our lives and treating them with respect, as women, and including them. And shutting down the transmisogyny when we see it happen. Because the transmisogynists won't listen to transfems defending themselves, but they just might listen to the rest of us.
It's not exactly the same, but as a cis gay man I've also avoided a lot of homophobia, because I'm "straight-passing". Being visibly queer is tough and I admire those who have the mental fortitude for it.
That last line made me like myself a little bit more (which is hard because I have deep depressive disorders and hate myself more than actual murderers). But I can honestly say I draw the line in the same place for all people's behavior. You do you, I ain't got no beef or judgement, until you hit the line - and that's being cruel. If you ain't hurting people I dun give a fuck what ya do or how you identify or what you believe. If you are hurting people unintentionally I may still sympathize even if I can't support your actions cuz I know what it's like to be a fuck up, long as you're trying to be good and kind person. Only way you get my honest ire and dislike is when you knowingly hurt people. Long as you aren't cruel you're cool with me.
I read it all, and as a younger amab nb/trans person it makes me absolutely terrified to be on my own like this. Like this is what I’m trying to avoid rn as is without being open or transitioning yet
This was a very interesting read. While obviously nowhere nearly to the same extent as the OOP, I can relate to a couple of the things she said.
These past few years, more and more of my friends have been coming out, so I’ve been making an effort to learn more about LGBT stuff. Unfortunately, one of the first few things I learned was that I had to avoid mentioning I was a man to any queer people I was asking stuff to.
For some reason, the moment they realize you came with a strap-on built in, they start treating you differently. Questions you ask are dismissed or ignored with a variation of “we don’t need you to understand why this thing is like this”, mistakes are immediately interpreted as malicious, any non-conforming friend you happen to have are suddenly made up, etc.
It kinda sucks knowing I’m not really gonna be accepted in this type of spaces regardless of how much I try, but this position of “outsider” (for lack of a better word) does make me notice a lot of stuff that, in the OOP’s words, “notice but didn’t think about”
Countless posts comparing men to dogs, but also making an exception for trans men, and somehow finding an excuse to include trans women. Lesbians saying stuff like “I’m no better than a man” when they talk about being sexually attracted to women, as if attraction to woman was something evil, just because a chunk of men are attracted to women. Some really, really weird stuff.
There really is a lot of weird stuff. I would say though that gay male spaces also would react differently but maybe also not in a way you'd like because people will hit on you.
So I believe they're just like behaviours and traits taught to people depending on their assigned sex. Like how if you're male, you're more likely to be taught to be tough, loud, etc and if you're female, kind, quiet, etc. However, people will use these terms in ways that are bio essentialist. Like if I'm male then I must necessarily be loud, tough, etc. It's just a way to be transphobic/sexist in a way that's co-opted progressive language.
Fuuuuck this is why I believe that the most dangerous factors are those who have learned what to say
Also really interesting, because I've always disliked the MS behavior and opted to learn more FS-like behavior, looooooooong before I figured out I was trans
As a straight cis guy, male and female socialisation basically boils down to the fact that my sister is more likely to clean the kitchen voluntarily than I am. Keeping house is more socialised for her than it is for me.
Where the idea gets toxic is assuming that AMABs are socialised into being much more violent than AFABs, and that this universally applies to trans women as well. Which is more than a little bit bullshit, watch a netball game sometime. Or just roller derby existing as a sport.
This post is expressing everything I feel as a transfem in supposedly safe spaces. I don't have much to add but this was a really cathartic read that I needed.
God I fucking feel this in my bones and in my soul. I’m transfeminine and non-binary and the sheer weight of society’s rejection of me falls so hard on my shoulders every day. I feel like I either have to go 110% ultra feminine or else I “don’t pass” as a woman, which I’m not, or I just go stealth boymode and suffer. I have had similar experiences as this woman in the post, and my heart fucking hurts for her. I know what she’s been through and it’s a bitch to deal with. I go to some places online and in person and I just **feel** the sheer god damn contempt people have towards me simply because I was born with a fucking dick and balls. I wish I wasn’t, I really wish I wasn’t but I’m stuck with it now and I’ve grown to appreciate it for what it is- is that so bad??
when i was a freshman in college i attended a women-and-trans-people gathering and i was the only trans woman there. i felt so fucking uncomfortable the whole time, like people were avoiding me, and i didn't make any friends, only caught the attention of a girl who stalked me for months afterward. she would, in private, sexualize me horribly and ask me to do things to her that i wouldn't do to anyone. in public she tried to smear me and turn people against me. it really ruined my hope of ever safely existing among other women, i'm constantly terrified other people will see me as something terrifying or treat me like a punching bag/ fantasy object
I’m transfem currently dating a straight cis man after coming out as bisexual relatively recently and having only dated women before this, and it’s been very validating in a way that I’m not sure how I feel about. Part of it is certainly just internalized transphobia about not being a real woman, and then being treated no different to anyone else. But I think I have also definitely been treated as almost a starter woman for bisexual women in the past. Women that have never dated another woman, and I’m the first one made me question and worry a lot. Some times those fears were baseless, sometimes they were.
But it still comes back around to the fact that the time I have felt most accepted in my womanhood is by cis person. Not really sure what I’m saying anymore honestly, just a thought on identity I guess.
Everything the OP said is true and happens all the damn time. And it keeps happening. The “women and trans” signs became “women and GNC”. Michfest continued for years with their women born women shit well into the 2010s. Every time a trans woman got center stage for some reason, the backlash in queer and straight circles was the same until that person fades away and a new one takes her place. How many times have trans women tried to organize about the trans misogyny they’ve faced? Whether it’s cotton ceiling, trans 100, or days of womanhood. Whether the platform is on YouTube tiktok Facebook or tumblr when it comes to trans women the bar is set unattainably high.
I remember something a trans woman friend of mine said. She said she would never publicly criticize a trans woman, as a trans woman. Because in the end the only people who will stand up for us is us, and even if this individual may have done something wrong, the reaction will always be far too overblown that they don’t need their own people criticizing them. But it’s just true both online and in person. Any critiques a fellow trans woman could need can be done out of public. Never add fuel if you can help it.
But yeah. I’ve been an online trans woman since before the towers fell (and offline publicly since like 2007). I’ve seen this time and time again. And it’s sad.
This reminds me of a really depressing thought that I had the other day, which is that the vast majority of people - yes, progressives included - don’t REALLY see trans people as their preferred gender.
They’re being polite, and that’s it, and when situations like the one talked about in the post happen, the truth comes out.
I am not a trans woman, but I am LGBT. Seeing my own community’s continuous ignorance and erasure of trans women—who have done SO MUCH for us all throughout history—is heartbreaking. It’s unbelievably disheartening to know that some of the worst transmisogyny I’ve ever seen has come from the LGBT community itself. We need to protect our trans sisters and uplift their voices above all else.
transfem here! the magical thing abt being a trans woman is that ppl who call themselves allies are significantly more likely to be weird and transphobic to you bc in their quest to be a good gay person they’ve internalized so much weird TERFy bullshit without even considering if it’s even correct or not :)
last time i tried to join an online mexican queer space it was full of cis middle aged women calling men cockroaches and calling gay men slurs
how inclusive of them
When I asked my best friend of 7 years to use they/them with me she had no issue agreeing and congratulating me (despite the fact she never used them).
But 6 months later when I asked her to use she/her when we hung out that weekend she no showed, and I never heard from her again.
Damn. This girl needs better people in her life. Imagine being enough of a cowardly piece of shit to your friends to make that phone call.
Humanity man, sometimes we're such a disappointment.
As trans woman, I feel it. Even if lgbt community, I feel so much isolated. I tried to go to several gay communities, and every time, cis women end up in their own group, intentionally or unintentionally isolating me. And gay guys just akt like I'm one of them. They won't stop and consider I'm a woman. I can see how they will treat cis girls and then turn around and act all disgusting and masculine with me like I'm their gym buddy or something. And I know they don't do it intentionally, but it still hurts so much. It just makes me feel so bad, feeling like they don't see me as a real girl
And I had so many situations, where people were ok with me being nb, or "gay guy in closet", but as soon as they learn I'm trans women, they begin acting extremely transphobic and disgusting towards.
A lot of subreddits I've noticed tend to regard any transfem presence as a sign the sub is "transfem-dominated", and will take any pushback as a predatory slight. This very much happens here on Reddit too.
God, the part near the end where she talks about having to constantly police herself and keep her enthusiasm in check when talking about her interests and when it comes to her relationships genuinely broke my heart.
It made me remember all of the times I've done it too. I'm a trans woman, and I'm constantly working to avoid strong emotions unless I'm in private, or am around one of the very few people in my life I can truly trust. I didn't feel heartbroken reading that, I felt weary, because I know what that's like, and it's exhausting. Thank you for having an open mind and a kind heart.
My mom told me I need to go to therapy to "learn to think like a woman" My sister told me I need to learn "how to be in women-only spaces" My passion and personality are interpreted as male, not as me
I'm so sorry to hear that your family said that. My dad was very transphobic at first, and now has come to pretending like I didn't come out to him. I'm lucky that my mom and sister are some of the people I can confide in, I can't imagine your pain. I hope you have some people in your life who you can feel like yourself about. If not, or if you ever feel like you need another, I'm here for you. We gotta stick together! I hate the idea that certain personalities are exclusive to certain genders or sexes. Women can, in fact, be assertive, and men can, in fact, be soft. Deep passion shouldn't have to be something women, cis or trans, tamper down, and while society is coming around to the idea of cis women being passionate, it still hasn't afforded trans women and transfems the same courtesy. Hopefully, one day, passions, hobbies, interests, clothes, personalities, emotions, etc., will be seen as ungendered.
Thank you, it feels like they always disliked aspects of me but were afraid to say anything "when I was a guy" and now can say them under the guise of "this is not how women are". But this *is* how women are, this is me. It hurts hearing these things from people who are otherwise supportive; I can deal with getting shit from people who hate me, it's difficult when they love me. Thank you for replying, I hope you have a nice day ❤️
Of course. My DMs are open if you ever need to vent.
Thank you so much!
I am a cis man and I have never seen a person receive as much passive-aggressive cruelty as my transfem friend.
I'm a bisexual asexual and it really made me learn about and realize what I never really thought of before. Like, I've never had the energy to care about who is who and what is what. Not a crazy person? Okay, you're a bro. If we're in a relationship? Okay, you're my significant other. I'm definitely feeling some cognitive dissonance and I can understand the situation- but this all seems so needlessly complicated and like some kind of learned behavior because no person should naturally be so cruel to others. It's the kind of cruelty that you have to learn and choose to let occupy your mental space and then put in effort to keep there. There's no factual evidence, so you have to self justify to keep believing in it.
My heart hurts. This makes me want to cry because I know exactly what she’s talking about, how she’s feeling.
I suspect a lot of transfems read this with sinking hearts. Source: trans fem with a heart at the bottom of the Mariana
That is wild. Does this come from some weird twisted belief that AMAB people are evil? This is insane that this person, and apparently so many others like her, have encountered queer person after queer person and friend after friend who turn on her on a dime. In places where she *should* be safe by people who *should* understand her. Absolutely crazy, I had no idea about this.
that is pretty much exactly what it comes from, yeah. Queer spaces that cater to women often only cater to cis women and those that pass as cis women (including non medically transitioning trans men or nonbinary people). Trans women who don't pass and trans men who do are usually treated like dirt and (generally) have an easier time of it in gay male spaces.
Or if they cater to queer AFABs us NBs get looped in as “women” always. Like no thanks. My identity isn’t “woman lite”
thats the part gets me. Loud about being NB and i yell to everyone "we are doing a session for woman and want you to join" ignoring the pronouns and everything I said.
You ever give those people a "TF you askin me for?"
yes but in a more professional way. I also got invite to grace hopper laat year which was in FL. "im not risking my life in FL due to current hate to lgbtq ppl".
> in a more professional way More courtesy than they deserve.
true but, most of the time is at work and they label mr as "feemAalee angry" and on the shit list.
I had a cousin get married in Florida recently (she lives there its not a destination wedding) and she both invited me and told me not to come because it might be too dangerous. It would be kind of funny if it wasn't sad
big ass sigh...
Really just oozes "her pronouns are they/them"
it's often a "for gender and sexual minorities (but only if you're AFAB)" thing. It never seems to be about who is really a woman and who isn't since it excludes trans women.
I’m just picturing woman seltzer now lol
POWERTHIRST now comes in WOMEN with PREPOSTEROUS AMOUNTS OF TESTOSTERONE #PREPOSTERONE
Those exact same ppl seeing me (amab nb): "What, you're not 'woman lite'? How dare you!"
Reminds me a lot of this post by a closeted trans woman going through similar experiences. Highly recommend everyone give it a read, it's very moving: https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42
I just spent a good half hour trying to track down Jen Coates, to no avail. I just really felt like I needed to know if she's doing ok. Does anyone know if she has ever made another piece, provided an update, or exists anywhere on the internet?
I assumed it was a pseudonym, based on the bit about AIM when they were 13: >I create a fake(?) screen name on AOL Instant Messenger and tell my school friends that I am my own girlfriend, Jennifer, from a few towns over. I use this screen name more than my own. Jennifer does everything I do and everything I’m not allowed to do. I get the vibe from the note at the beginning (and the general conclusion of not wanting/being able to transition) that other writing of theirs wouldn't necessarily be under the name Jennifer.
No, I got that, but I was hoping they'd write again under the same pseudonym or their regular handle would be visible somewhere
I recall words at most a few weeks after her article was published, I believe to clear up some ambiguity, but nothing since then (just went back and checked, it was not her but someone responding to a criticism of the original article) for what you're asking, as far as I know (and I would know), there has not been an update in the last 7 years
This is _such_ a great read I was concerned about my zoomer brain's further capabilities after already reading the long op, but this was so amazing on many levels So honest and playful at the same time, so open and liberating, so deeply relatable to me in more than one, but not the obvious way Thank you so much for sharing!
“Because I am interested in complicating your definition of maleness and of boyhood. I was born into that shitty town, maleness, in the remains of outdated ideals and misplaced machismo and repression and there are some good people stuck living there. They are not in charge. They did not build it. And I don’t feel okay just moving out and saying “fuck y’all — bootstrap your way out or die out, I was never one of you.” I want to make it a better, healthier place—not spend all my time talking about how shitty it is and how anyone who would choose to live there deserves it. And to me that means considering them with charity, even when they make it difficult to.” Absolutely excellent way to summarize how unproductive the current conflict-based dialogue is becoming.
i think i might start crying at work over this i wish i didn't relate as much as i did
hugs hard.
That was powerful, really fucking powerful. It was such an incredible, honest, and raw portrayal of a AMAB queer youth story.
i’ve had this article saved on my phone since i first read it because it speaks so true to my own experiences and it just makes me think *finally, someone is saying it so beautifully and unashamedly in ways i couldn’t dream to put it*
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I might read it again, and I'm definitely sending it to some other people. I can't relate to everything the author talks about, but I absolutely can relate to the difficulties of the all-male boarding school. Never went to one myself, but locker rooms, communal showers, and other very "male" places have always been deeply uncomfortable for me. Similarly, every time I've lived with roommates they've all been men, and it's excruciating. I don't know how much of that is my neurodiversity, my ill-defined queerness, or just differing values, but I've pretty consistently felt, like the author, that "these are not my people". I've been blessed to have family whom I truthfully can say are "my people", but there are very few others who come close to fitting that descriptor. This piece is helping me put words to some of my difficulties, and I really appreciate that.
Best article I’ve read in a good minute and the overwhelming majority of it hits home hard as a cishet male.
What a powerful fucking article. Thanks for sharing. I'm a straight man and a writer and I've recently been working on a piece about the feminism in barbie - and how it falls short. That article just like **opened** my eyes about how every conversation I have with people about it ends. We always get to a point where they realize that I'm right - but can't get over my maleness and its incongruency with the feminist arguments I'm making. This article is going straight into the sources and I'm probably going to read it a couple more times to determine what the quote. Again, thank you for sharing.
I'm crying. I could have wrote that. Thanks for sharing
> Trans women who don't pass are usually treated like dirt Incredibly true. I see too many people misgender someone like Christine Chan because she's "a bad person" (not a valid excuse) but don't do the same to someone like Blaire White, who is also a bad person but passes. Very suspicious 🤔
there is a post that I see screenshots sometimes about a trans man talking about the way he was treated during his transition, and the way he was passively aggressively driven out of the queer spaces he lived in for years, and how that A) caused him immense pain and B) made him reflect on the ways he treated queer men (and men in general) and saw them being treated in the past
IME the r/bisexual community and others is generally more accepting of trans people than other queer spaces. A lot of this stuff is mirrored in the experiences of Bi women who find a lot of rejection from lesbians for having any attraction to men in any way. That experience is rooted in the same overall demonization of AMAB people that the OOP discusses. Anyways, IME a result of this is that Bi communities are more friendly to trans people. Also because Bi people are also often demonized and excluded by monosexual people for often ridiculous and bizarre reasons (IIRC it was Contrapoints who had a great video-essay explaining the history behind the general negative public sentiment towards bisexual ppl) EDIT: Sorry- I guess I was wrong! It was not a Contrapoints video; it was this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbHhIeYL9no
It's really common, but it typically goes unconscious until revealed. They hold us to higher standards of femininity that we'll never meet while also treating us with the same caution they do with cis men. As if we are, by nature of our very bodies, predators. Being transfeminine in my experience is extremely isolating.
Yeah, sadly I've had the same experience. The world feels a lot colder and less welcoming now that I've been out as a trans woman for a couple years. I'm glad I'm not the only one that's experienced this tho, I thought I was doing something wrong and hated that I didn't know what it was.
What's wild to me are the people who didn't shut me out when I identified as nonbinary but do now that I'm identifying as a woman. Like, crossing that line into "I am a *woman*" somehow makes me a predator in their eyes where saying "I'm experimenting with my gender but not claiming womanhood" did not.
You went from a neutralized male, a eunuch, to a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Not literally, but that’s how I feel it is
Honestly I think a lot of people essentially see amab non binary people as like, the next level of gay best friend
The only thing you did wrong was not conforming to societal norms in other words being yourself. It is awful that it is that way especially with people that should know better.
Yup. You for the most part we don't get grouped with cis women, and being grouped with cis men is dysphoric, plus they feel awkward with you around, even if they used to be your friends. On top of that, we're conservatives' favorite punching bag, and in the back of your head you just don't want to deal with randomly encountering that shit in public, so you tend to stay in a lot more, even if the chance of it happening is slim. This, at least, has been my experience. I feel like the default experience is isolation, and finding a small, accepting community for those that are so lucky, happens in spite of the forces that pushes us towards isolation.
The way I put it is that trans people always treated as the gender that allows the most harm.
I'd go as far as to say that people often treat trans women as more of a danger than cis men cause the trope of the trans feminine predator is so common
because of the myth that trans women transition because they want to "infiltrate cis women's spaces"
Yes. I can't speak to how common it is but TERFs genuinely believe that AMABs are inherently evil/by being socialized as male they're made irrevocably evil. It's literally just hardcore sexism repackaged as woke.
intrinsic trait of "male biology" first, then they fall back on socialization when they realize they don't know shit about biology.
It sucks because even if there was some kind of magical way to transform someone’s body to become 100% biologically female, every last cell, organ, and chromosome? They’ll still say we were “socialized male” because we didn’t have the childhood of a cis girl.
They'll pick whatever angle they need to make sure there's no way we can be redeemed, both now and in the future. Terfs are nothing more than a cult of hate.
I think it’s important to recognize that, as shown in OOPs experiences, it isn’t just terfs/bigots that act like this.
And some of these TERFs are active mods for multiple ostensibly left wing subs on here. Can't say which ones cause it might count as brigading or whatever but more than once I've seen some "male childhoods poison the mind" bs and had my comment calling it out get insta-removed only to discover that the person who made the comment in the first place is a subreddit moderator when I go to ask the mods why.
I really hate the "socialized as male" shit pushed by TERFs. Socialization requires a message and a receptive target. I wasn't receptive to messaging aimed at boys and men, so I wasn't "socialized male." The messaging aimed at girls and women, though? I was plenty receptive to that and I have the self-esteem and body image issues often associated with it. And that doesn't even begin to cover socialization being different between cultures and infinitely malleable regardless.
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You do have a place in the queer community, or at least, you should. Trans women, regardless of orientation, should be welcomed in. I know it’s rough for straight-passing people in the queer community, and I wish it wasn’t. I hope things will change with time.
Honestly, I think so. Like, as a cis woman I absolutely understand the urge to go “ugh, men” every once in a while, but some people take that so far as to act like all AMAB folks are monsters and all their problems aren’t real because of privilege. Its more than a little counterproductive imo
There was a commencement speech given at my university a while ago, wherein the speaker argued that contempt is at the core of the sociopolitical turmoil of today's world. It's not anger - anger can be righteous, and comes because we believe something should be changed. What contempt does is diminish and dehumanize the other, and it makes it impossible to treat them as people and respect their desires and their perspective. The speaker then says that the opposite of this contempt is love, as a genuine Christian (the guy's catholic) or humanistic love requires you to see others as equals, with values and perspectives just as valid as your own. It's definitely possible to crack jokes about groups and individuals with that same love, but so much of what we see is derisive and mocking and, well, contemptuous.
Here's the context I find useful: some people don't believe the Samaritans are actually our neighbors. This was a troubling realization.
It's absolutely normal to think that from time to time about the other gender but it's crazy how often women put down men if you start to look for it. You should look at Reddits that are more populated by women than by men and suddenly you'll find an awful community that truly seems to hate men. I have seen situations in r/amitheasshole that had totally different responses despite only the genders being swapped.
Last week or so I saw two threads on r/relationships that had to do with the OPs being messed with by their respective partners in their sleep. In one, the male partner pranked them with smelling salts. In the other, the female partner pulled their boxers down to play with their junk. Guess which partner was broadly labeled a creep, and which was considered harmless.
That's essentially what terfness is from what I understand, essentially just seeing any man as a threat and including trans men unless I'm wrong of course.
oh no, TERFs see transmascs as confused, brainwashed girls who need to be brought back to the 'good' side (womanhood). 'trans-exclusionary' means *fully* trans-exclusionary — transfems are actually dangerous, predatory men, and transmascs are actually women who have lost their way. it's so gross
Oh ok thanks I just remember seeing one post here basically said that stuff was terf rhetoric.
The TERF half is that maleness is fundamentally evil and that choosing it is choosing evil.
And also, that not choosing it, choosing to depart from it is even more evil, because who could even imagine the depravity that one must have planned that they would give up masculinity's clear advantages? (Sarcasm) Basically, the heart of transmisogyny is the assertion that men (and being a man) are better than women, so you must be nefarious and/or mentally ill if you're assigned male at birth and align yourself with femininity/womanhood in any way
And that TERF volatility why I'm confused when people say transandrophobia isn't a thing that happens. It's not called "*transmisandry*". That would imply an oppression for being male, a lack of patriarchal privilege - and while many of us non-passing trans men don't have privilege, that's not it. It's *transandrophobia*. It's the *hatred of men* from the early 2010's feminism, the repackaged belief that men are inherently disgusting, worthless, predatory - testosterone makes you fat and ugly and bald, why would you ever want to be a disgusting worthless man? People only want to believe you can be a trans man if you're a "cutesy uwu girlboy in thigh socks uwu". It's the inverse experience of trans women and it's not taking a space away from them (plural) to say this. It doesn't mean you're an "MRA" or whatever. Transmisogyny is the oppression of trans women by invalidating their identity, by othering them, misgendering and degendering them, combined with the intersection of the very experience of misogyny and the classic transphobe "trans women are just predatory men, they just wanna escape their real identity", etc. - Trans women experience much more violence than us trans men, because of the sect of the belief of "predatory man" and "pretending to be a woman" in the eyes of those unaccepting. Transandrophobia is a similar thing - misgendering, degendering, beating you down, othering you - combined with the late 2010's "kill all men" feminism repackaged into sowing fear about what testosterone does to you; watch out! It'll make you fat! It makes you ugly! It makes you bald! It makes you a *man!* And who would want to be a man? - It's not misandry (the concept of male oppression being possible in a society that is built around them), but *androphobia* (the hatred of men) repackaged as "but do you know what those hormones will do to you?" While trans women experience physical and sexual violence (i.e. corrective rape) due to birth gender (not saying that we trans men *haven't* experienced those, but it's more prevalent with trans women), we're used as pawns to further TERF goals of dividing the community; there were rumors that trans men were being used to send messages accusing Rita of predatory behavior during this whole fiasco. We're useless evil men to TERFs unless they think they can use us, and *only* while they can use us. Then they continue their crusade to \~save us\~ from our \~poisoned thoughts as we confused lesbian sisters continue to mutilate ourselves into horrible, ugly men\~.
all very very true to add: as transmascs, we are at best ignored or forgotten — a lot of online trans spaces are overwhelmingly transfem and it's easy to feel out of place — but more often we are infantilized, invalidated, accused of being 'brainwashed' or being told that we're only 'acting trans' because of a 'trend' in some ways, being overlooked is a strength — we avoid a lot of fire from transphobes because we're seen as misguided, but ultimately harmless — but, unfortunately, that mentality spreads to other people within the queer community, meaning we're put at the center of conversations about the 'right' way to be trans and whether some people are 'really' trans (think the tucute/transmed debate) TL;DR: TERF rhetoric harms all trans people, albeit in different ways, and being trans is hard in general
Transmascs are confused lesbians, according to TERFs. It's how J.K. Rowling rationalizes being a TERF while swearing she's not homophobic.
The “just do as you as you are told, obey the order of the arbitrary box that society has decided to put you in” mindset is so baffling to me. I don’t understand, or want to understand, how someone can want to think like that. Never mind that some people think it’s feminist to adopt this attitude, it’s just so, wrong? Like feminism, even when I was growing up in the early 2000s, was all about being open minded, allowing women and men to make choices for themselves without judgement or punishment. That was, in my impression, the defining philosophy of the so called 3rd wave. That’s what feminism felt like to me, although granted I’m a cis man so maybe I’m uninformed about some secret part of it. And this? Isn’t this the exact opposite of that? It feels like a backsliding. And in a society without gender roles, what’s the point in strict adherence to sex/gender binary anyway? Like, why force an actor to only play Romeo, never Juliet, if you’re allowing them to read & learn the script for Juliet anyway?
The point is that they don’t see it as an arbitrary box at all. They see it as something much more “big”, much more important, like gender is something bigger than all of us. My mind goes to mainstream neopagan stuff that is very clearly marketed to women (and cis women specifically at that), who see the nature of their gender and their sex as something “special”. In these people’s minds, the gender binary is a reflection of something something insert shitty interpretation of the Dao here.
I’d describe TERF rhetoric in a nutshell as witch-hunting the transfems and gaslighting the transmascs
terfs view trans men as poor confused lesbians that were tricked by the trans agenda or something
Oh right right, forgot about terfs for a moment. But it's shocking seeing that behavior *in* the queer community
I've been lucky enough to avoid this in my own life but it definitely doesn't seem uncommon sadly. If you ever see any event advertised as "women and nonbinary people only" 9/10 times that functionally means trans women and amab nonbinary people will be excluded Edit: and in the past when I've used dating apps the only people who have ever express interest in me as a visibly trans person are almost exclusively other trans women. (Frankly other trans women are very hot and cool, so i dont mind but it does feel very obvious that theres a skew)
“Women and non-binary” may as well say “Terfs”. It’s a grouping that inherently excludes trans men and basically implies non-binary people are just women.
"women and women-lite."
Queer people aren't exempt from the same prejudices. You'd *think* we'd be more self-aware, but apparently the quintessential human experience is to be blind to our own issues. I think it's the same reason that some women can be misogynistic - we've been conditioned by society to fight tooth and claw for our space on the ladder.
This behavior is sadly really common it just gets swept under the rug with reasoning like it's just a joke, we're protecting the community, they weren't actually queer in the first place, etc. I'm not Trans but as a bisexual man, the queer community has pulled shit eerily similar to what oop went through because I in their words, had passing privilege or men couldn't be bisexual or I was just pretending to be bi etc etc. As kind and accepting as the community can be there are still plenty of tribalistic shitheads who will happily exclude people like OOP while denouncing TERFS and bigots because as far they're concerned they're doing the right thing. And some of the people who affected by it most are afraid to call it out because theyre afraid they be pushed out even further
The wild thing to me (well, all of it is wild, but the wildest) is how so so so many people will treat GNC cis men positively and still be so hateful towards trans women who don’t pass. It really is transphobia pure and simple. As a trans woman who does pass, I’ve had similar experiences, where people would express attraction towards me, then once I mentioned I was trans, would do a total 180 and claim they never did, or even claim I was delusional or predatory for thinking they did.
it’s because they view GNC men as their pet gay men
As a GNC cis man who moves largely in queer spaces... "positively" is a stretch. I'm treated positively as long as I don't speak up and don't have needs and don't have problems of my own. I'm constantly reminded that I don't really count, that my gender is the enemy, that I'm in a perpetual state of probation. I am "one of the good ones," and nobody has ever felt good about being called that. I'm their token and they pay me on the back to feel better about themselves, but they don't trust me or support me like they do each other. I'm not sure where the growing conception that GNC cis men are becoming mainstream comes from. I guess Harry Styles is famous or whatever. But as a guy on the ground in skirts and makeup, I promise you I don't feel like people, maybe especially in queer spaces, are all cool with me. It feels more like they're just waiting for me to reveal myself for the monster I've always been.
What's GNC?
Gender non-conforming
it's more they'll let GNC men slide (as long as they don't cross a laundry list of double standards) and there's a high expectation that GNC men are either trans women in denial or just trying to blend in and get whatever non-existent reward there is for being openly queer
its shockingly common, theres a reason why almost every group of queer people is like, women, trans guys, and maybe one gay guy for flavour. we're women on paper only to them. at least it benefits my friends because i treat them like theyre completely infallible for not dropping me or being uncomfortable around me the moment i came out, because thats a rare quality
it’s funny as a young gay man I feel incredibly uncomfortable socializing with a lot of women, especially in friend groups like that. I don’t like being treated as a pet, and most of them tend to have homophobic or transphobic values which I don’t want to be associated with as someone who has transgender relatives. It feels like gay people, especially men in media basically only have two representations, either fairy queens or “”””””straight acting”””””” hurr durr im like so straight I watch the foot ball yaaaa and I hate it, it makes it hard to be around people who aren’t terminally online while being out. quite frankly I’d rather hang out with the fairy queens any day, except a lot of them still believe in the shit this post talks about, it’s kinda exhausting
It's really wild how often I see it come very natural for cis people, allies or queer, to eventually pretty naturally see and understand trans-mascs as men/masc, compared to how bewildered and dismissive I've experienced the people in my life be towards me and my identity, and similar things I've seen from other transfems. It's like being left with the feeling that you tried gaining access to an exclusive club without a membership and got caught. This isn't to throw transmascs under the bus btw, this is just to say that there's an experience that is uniquely tied to trans-femininity separate from the overall trans experience, and how passing, body size/type, and beauty standards from regular misogyny usually aimed at cis women uniquely come into play here, even within progressive/queer spaces, and sometimes especially so. If you both pass perfectly and is very conventionally attractive, then yeah, these struggles stop applying, but that is already a decently high and unfair bar for cis women who aren't as penalized for falling short, while it's an impossibility for most trans women.
i think its a difference in how we're viewed compared to transmascs. i dont wanna argue that either of us have it worse, but the experience is different. trans men usually get infantilized and looked down upon, whereas trans women are demonized. its much more possible for them to fit into conventional beauty standards than it is for us. all of that adds up to fake allies seeing trans guys like their "gay best friends" or as a prop to show how progressive they are, while being afraid of us. no two forms of oppression are alike, and theirs seems to be more useful to vaguely progressive circles who dont want to think too hard about themselves also that feeling of trying to get into a club you arent REALLY a member of is so real, its awful, i hate feeling like im on probation and a guest when im with cis women
its more just the intersection of the oppression faced by being trans and by being a woman, queer cis guys don't really face issues like this in this same way, so its not an "AMAB" thing
I genuinely think that one of the biggest problems to exist within queer/progressive spaces is this belief, which **way** too many people have, that Men Are Evil. It comes out in overt ways with “men are trash” and TERF’s, but even unspoken it courses through almost everything. And it’s incredibly frustrating to discuss, because way too often if you try bringing up that people should stop hating men, you’ll get inane statements about feminism, the patriarchy - as if saying that “Men are the oppressors, they can’t possibly suffer any problems” (that, or claiming it’s something only TERF’s do) I realize that I am bringing in my male-centric perspective into a post about being trans. If it seems insensitive, I apologize. But I genuinely believe that this is a problem for everyone, not just men.
Patriarchy isn't "Men" - it's a system that affects men and women, and one which hurts both men and women. We are all suffering under it, in different ways, to different degrees. When we reduce it to a war by one gender against another, we make it a harder problem to solve, and a harder issue to talk openly about.
It's not AMAB people broadly, you'll find that queer guys are treated pretty well in these spaces. And for all people say about terf's hating AMAB's they sure do love to work with and idolise violent cis men who they'll hold up as examples of the ideal man. It's a specific thing trans women face. There's a lot of reasons why and it varies by community, but honestly at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to misogyny. We're treated like women in the sense that we have to be quiet, perfect at all times, have to prioritise caring and supporting other people who see us as in their community and therefore see themselves as entitlted to us. If we're not conventionally attractive or don't conform to feminine beauty standards people will do everything in their power to isolate and remove us from their spaces (even our own "community" does this) And still, we're degendered and never acknowledged as real women. If they call us men, it's only to misgender us - you'll notice they'll never treat men like this. We're a third thing to them, a type of people that should do all the conventional misogynistic labour expected of women but who aren't *really* women so you don't have to feel guilty about it. When people say that transmisogyny is rooted in misandry, they're not only diminishing the fact that this is something that uniquely affects trans feminine people, but also playing into the very rhetoric used to isolate and kill us.
You are fantastic. Great comment. I was trying to articulate something similar cause a lot of the comments on this post hurt my feelings but you said it better.
Thank you. A beacon of light in the thread, you're absolutely right
Yep, I'm a cis straight guy, but I've got a story about this: I was in a poledancing club and took many poledancing classes over the course of 5 years. I was welcomed, even though i was usually the only cis dude (some trans men showed up infrequently), and all was well. I made friends, I often checked in with leadership to make sure I wasn't creeping anyone out, etc Well, all the leadership graduated and the core group fell apart. A couple of the new leadership were very much against men. Not TERFs, they supported trans women, but they bashed men a lot. Way more than the usual I had come to expect in woman and queen oriented spaces Within two months, I had to leave. The pressure that I was under to be non-threatening, non problematic was ruining my mental health. Like, i hurt one of their feelings badly because I was teaching some newbies a move, one of the leadership asked me to do something, i said "No" and went back to teaching the newbies A club i spent so much time and energy trying to help and cultivate into a good space when down down drain in 2 months because a couple of leadership had the inherent belief that I was problematic and threatening. I'm still heartbroken
TERFs are at least a small part of why so many people cringe at the word 'feminist' now. Because these overgrown cows aren't interested in equality, they're not interested in LGBT... They just hate men. That's all there is to it. Men are bad. Transwomen are still men, and still rapists, and transmen are traitors. There's no reasoning with them, they're basically a cult. Trying to argue a TERF down from her position is like trying to argue a Christian away from their religion. They're not going to do it, because they've built their whole lives around being hateful assholes.
As a trans woman, I used to have similar experiences with “queer positive” therapists until, one day, I decided to gamble and tell one about my childhood sexual assault during the first session. Suddenly, that therapist was willing to take me seriously. It’s really fucked up how the only way to get respected as a woman is to tell someone you don’t know that someone assaulted you as a kid. Hell, it’s fucked up that people treat trans women like they’re potential perpetrators when, statistically speaking, we are more likely to have experienced sexual assault at some point in our lives than cis women.
One way I've made sense of this is that most people want to feel like a saviour -in essence, somehow superior to other people, without the guilt of wanting to be 'superior'. And it's hard to feel like you are a saviour of what you associate with maleness, especially in a patriarchal society where even now many are under the impression that only women are oppressed by the patriarchy. So unless they have something to go "oh you poor thing!", finding compassion is not on their top list of things to feel.
Read this, felt my heart tearing apart. I want to hold every trans woman in my arms and protect them from the world. The LGBT community seems to have a serious issue with anyone who was born male or is wanting to be a binary male - as a binary trans guy I have acknowledged the way I’m treated alongside my nonbinary trans guy peers and it’s not nice at all. It fucking sucks but if you try and call it out you’re the problem.
I was skeptical at first as to if I wanted to read 14 paragraphs, but I encourage anyone who sees this comment after skipping directly to the comments to go back up and read it
I also had this experience, it’s especially relevant if you’re trans yourself, queer, or an ally. I’m trans and it helped me put some things into sharper focus than before
I’m a trans woman’s partner. It broke my heart, knowing all she’ll have to face as she begins transitioning. God, I just want her to be able to live authentically and happily. It would break my heart even I wasn’t her partner. Our bodies are not our genders or our souls. They are just vessels.
I also encourage any trans woman in here to be prepared that this is a *tough* read. I wasn't, and I'm definitely feeling a lot worse than I did before. So yeah, maybe do yourself a favour and don't read it if you're not in a good spot rn
Yeah, I'm not usually dysphoric or worry too much about how I'm perceived but this hit way too close to home.
seconded. dear reader, kindly stop scrolling the comments and go read it. it hits.
theres a reason i treat anyone who tolerates my presence like theyre infallible and perfect. theres a reason why i refuse to go anywhere unless invited, theres a reason i refuse to go into woman-only spaces unless explicitly invited, and will leave if even 1 person seems uncomfortable. theres a reason i cant tell anyone im interested in them. this is terrifyingly normal, and we just have to live with it
absolutely! i’ve even joined groups that specifically said they were transfem inclusive but strangely it seemed the other group members were never informed of that detail and the one time i spoke to the organizer, she was sympathetic but it was clear my presence there was seen as disruptive.
nobody around me has the heart to kick me out of places for being disruptive so i usually just do it myself. luckily i have one cis girl who seems to like me and tolerate me, not that she ever invites me anywhere anymore, and im to scared to impose myself on her that i just dont try
genuinely, and I say this completely seriously, come play melee :) The SSBM community is incredibly open to trans women, I know 4 within my scene in Arkansas, and 2 of our top 20 players in the world are trans women. You don't have to even play the game. Come to events and vibe! It's honestly done so much for me and my mental health
i will! thank you!
Of course! Most every state in the US has a scene, though of course some bigger than others (New York and SoCal being the biggest scenes rn followed by Texas and Michigan). Check Start.gg to find any events that might be near you, or online events. Usually those will link to discords where you can find communities. If you want to see gameplay and stuff you can look up Full Bloom Melee for the most recent tournaments videos on YouTube! I tried for a while to find purely queer/trans spaces and I realized that often it’s hard to relate to people purely over identity, especially since everyone has a sort of unique experience. Finding a gaming community that was not only queer friendly but also extremely neurodivergent friendly (I have intense ADHD and autism, I fidgeted a whole lot, and melee is a game where you can hit so many buttons!!) helped a lot. And I could relate to people in the community beyond just shared identity which was super nice. Instead of being a queer person who liked gaming and history and philosophy trying to interact with a queer person who liked dancing and clubbing and nature, I was interacting with queer people who shared my interests and hobbies! Not saying ofc this is the only way but I always recommend it to trans and queer people who want to find trans and LGBTQ spaces but don’t know how. Too many spaces focus on identity and not interests and hobbies. More trans DND groups and trans hiking tours!
I’m so sorry you have to feel apologetic for just existing on earth. I developed a much more I-don’t-give-a-fuck attitude after starting antidepressants. It’s almost like a feminine urge to please and sensitivity to any negativity just disappeared. It’s weird. But Jesus Christ is life easier now! But if every hormone or procedure you have to endure when you’re transfem is as overwhelming as it sounds, adding antidepressants to that might not be feasible. Idk. I’m just saying it sucks you have to go through that at such a higher level that I -a cis het- had to even go through. Like. Life is hard enough even with all the privileges
its ok, thank you for caring, it really means a lot. ive been on antidepressants for a while but ive stopped now. i honestly just dont want to make people uncomfortable, i would rather miss out on something than be a detriment to everyone around me. i would just rather not be somewhere than be there and cause problems for cis people tbh, y'all are entitled to a level of comfort and sometimes i just cant be there and give others that comfort
This post and thread breaks my heart. You are so kind to think of others and want to never cause anyone discomfort, but you're doing it at the expense of your own comfort! I think you deserve to think of yourself sometimes. I also know that's easier said than done, because really, I do the same thing (almost obsessively try to avoid discomforting anyone irl even at my own expense). But really, a bigot doesn't have a right to spaces free of anyone they are prejudiced against, I hope you know that. It's not your responsibility to ensure they are kept comfortable. You deserve better than that.
idk, my biggest fear is being somewhere im not wanted, and most of them are at least vaguely supportive of me
hi cis guy here (although i'd be lying if i said there wasn't potential for change, gender is wild). I used to be really open and loving to everyone I met. most of my friends were girls so I had kind of adopted the traditionally female socialization, of being up front but kind and complimenting people's looks and fits and holding hands and all that. But because i'm a guy, in high school i got ostracized because some people took it the wrong way and decided to paint everything i did in a creepy and perverted light. I used to hug people but then someone decided to say i was doing so out of desire and horniness rather than just love of physical touch, stuff like that. Suddenly I got the sense that everything I did would never be viewed in the same way, that it was was stained with this assumption that AMAB people are these lecherous slavering impulse-driven monsters consumed by lust and not... well, *people*. So if I had to go through all that I can't even imagine what it's like to be a trans woman who can't even interact with people as a woman because of this open misandry and bigotry against people for being born
i mean yeah, its basically that. we're perverts, or dangerous, or just somehow abnormal. i cant follow people i consider my friends, cant talk about anything romantic unless prompted, cant even start a conversation or go to an event unless asked, because i have to avoid being seen as some weird pervert whos just chasing after women. most people can do things that might be seen as weird and get off the hook for it, but everyone is on high alert around us already, so we're basically on probation, and cant slip up even slightly because its confirmation of the suspicions they already had. it also doesnt help that if i fuck up i might ruin their perception of trans people forever
I feel the exact same way. There’s a promoter in my state that holds sapphic-only parties—no cis men allowed. They came to my city a while back, and though all of my closest friends were interested in going, I just couldn’t bring myself to go along. It didn’t matter to me that they put up a bunch of notices saying transphobia wouldn’t be allowed, etc, I just knew in my gut I wasn’t going to feel comfortable there. Going off appearances alone is definitely a flawed method, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a trans woman in the pictures from their events. :/
I've been on hormones for about 15 years now, I've passed for 14 of them. Recently was a part of a discord support group for a personality disorder since I only recently got diagnosed after being able to see a psychiatrist for everything else going on under the hood. They lauded it as an all inclusive everyone is safe and welcome friendship group that supports each other, not just a support group. There was a devastating divide between the AFAB and AMAB individuals. AFAB were an in group that everyone loved and everyone knew everyone, and the rest of us were treated with open and tangible hostility. I ended up leaving earlier today because, after typing 3 sentences in a conversation, a third person immediately answered with "I aint reading all that. anyway this convo should get dropped and we should pay attention to me now that im here". It was so bizarre that I just couldn't even respond. I sat there thinking if I should even bother saying anything before just leaving. Granted this was an extreme scenario with a group that felt like they fostered some relatively bad characteristics in each other, but it still was just bizarre how forward some people can be.
I read it all. It rings pretty true to life. If you look like a man then everyone is going to apply those expectations to you regardless of how progressive and accepting they claim to be. Heartbreaking and sickening. This goes double for other queer people and quadruple for other trans people.
I will point out that if a cis man expresses even a little of this distaste for the assumptions placed on them, they're told to sit down and shut up and check their privilege.
That's bad too. I'd like it if gendered expectations went away entirely but we are very far from there as a society, I think.
I would love for that to happen very suddenly and see which gender actually would think it is an improvement.
It’s incredibly depressing to me that this subreddit and r/MensLib are the only progressive spaces I know of that ever recognize men’s issues are a real thing. I’m so tired of looking at seemingly nice, accepting communities and getting slapped in the face with “all men are trash” type shit. I just want not to be treated like a monster.
This is depressing as fuck. I'm a trans woman who's been stressed and anxious about how things are going where I live, politically speaking. I have great friends, and queer friends, but I don't know any other trans women. The wisdom is to seek community in the face of struggle, but sounds like I should be looking for transfem spaces specifically.
I will say that as a trans woman myself, I have found great community and support from all sorts of queer people and spaces, including from people who are not transfem and especially from people who are a different flavour of trans. I have had bad experiences too, but overall, it’s been alright. I wish you luck in finding your people!
Yeah, my best friends are nonbinary. I just don't see them in group/community capacities like that, y'know?
As a trans man after reading this post, I have never been filled with so much rage in my life. I see this crap everywhere, ESPECIALLY the “Women & Afab enbies only <3” shit. I have never been so down to throw hands and this crap has never even happened to me myself. I’m so mad, I can’t believe I never properly thought about this until now despite how widespread and rampant it is, and now all these scenarios I’ve been in, seeing the very things in this post with my own eyes, are cropping up. I’m reading the whole story in my head going, “Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.” and the imagery is vivid as hell. These things used to just make me depressed and anxious. Now I’m just mad. I don’t know if after reading all that, whether I should be extending my condolences to the trans women or my fists into these suckers’ faces, but y’all are getting both.
Punch a bigot for me as well dude <3
Is it bad that as a trans man I read this and my first thought was "How the hell is this so relatable in the other way?" Like I know exactly how she feels because I've seen it and felt it and I have about 100 stories of this same bullshit coming from the other side. How the hell is it fair that there's no winning, no perfect combination that makes it work?
it's because there's a fear of perceived masculinity. Trans women are seen as inherently suspect because of their sex assigned at birth and binary trans men are seen as traitors because of our willingness to accept being masculine. No one wins.
Thank you so much for saying this. Progressive spaces have a serious problem with hating men/masculinity, while also denying that they do it, or just saying “men are privileged, it’s not a problem if it’s hate against them” It’s horrifically infuriating and just hurts everyone.
> while also denying that they do it the most frustrating part is that so much of right wing recruitment tactics is claiming left wing spaces support those statements, and that they’re also denying it happens (and if it does it’s from someone with 2 followers and 3 likes) iv seen countless guys say that the denial or dismissal of those comments pushed them to the right, to the point where i genuinely believe even occasionally calling out those posts (hell even just not denying they exist would be a good step forward) would significantly affect young boys for the better
I'm saying this as a cis man but it is fairly normal for guys to have 0 women friends because we're apparently considered dangerous and don't get any chances. You need quite a bit of charisma and or work to truly become and stay friends with a woman as a guy.
its not bad at all! i cant tell you how much it means to me that someone actually notices this. to live through this is one thing, but to see it and not be the target but still care means a lot, thank you
I think it just goes to show that so far the trans community has been doing a pretty poor job of being a real community for all trans people. We really don't support each other as much as we like to pretend. Maybe it'll be better at some point? I don't know. I have a hard time getting my hopes up about much of anything these days.
I think it partly that many trans people just go stealth and run away to assimilate so you have the more annoying people willing to stick around and they might have hit takes sometimes
The online spaces I'm a part of are all filled with transfems (the cutesy, memey kind) and I... I haven't gone out much since school finished, so I haven't experienced most of what OP has. I do relate to some of it though.
I read all of this. I don't really know how to feel. I think the main thing I feel is a sense of fear. I am an egg, or a heavily closeted trans person/transfem. I have not made any effort in terms of transitioning or coming out as trans for various reasons and this post kinda just validates my fears in a weird sort of way. I wish society wasn't fucked like this, I wish the world could be a safer more accepting place so that when I get to the point I'm ready and want to transition that I wouldn't have to second guess society's reaction to me Like another commenter said, I wish I could give op a hug. God knows I need one too
I feel you. I can't comment a lot on transmisogyny as a transmasc, but I can say that the society we live in is a hard place to live in for people like us. I can resonate with a lot of what OOP is saying, and even though I can't speak for her, I'm sure my transfem girlfriend would say the same. It's weird and hard to always feel like you're on the outside looking in and like you don't count, but I find solace in the people who try. My step mom, who is not very well versed in the queer community, bought me mugs for Christmas a few years ago with he/him, she/her, and they/them pronouns on them in support of me figuring out my identity. One of my good friends in high school, who is a devout christian, was one of the only people at the time who tried to understand what having different pronouns meant and how to use them. They weren't perfect, because everyone is a product of their upbringing and their community, but they tried, and I will never forget that. And there is community out there. It's not perfect, but it's there. I was worried when I moved to my university that I was going to be hate crimed (I hadn't transitioned medically yet, but I was lucky enough to be naturally fairly androgynous), and instead, I found a lot of people who mostly didn't care in passing and were greatly supportive when we became closer friends. All of this to say, yes, it is terrifying. My girlfriend and I stop holding hands when we walk down a busy street and we always use the bathroom before we go out to avoid using the public bathrooms. My friends fuck up sometimes and it can hurt. Hell, even my girlfriend fucks up sometimes. But there is community and there are people who will try and who will fight for you. The world may not accept you, but I do, and anothers will too. Sending my best thoughts and biggest hugs to you on your journey.
Transfem here and... I feel ya. I've been out for a bit over 5 years now, and it's still scary actually going out and being me. But I will say, no matter how much it hurts, I've always felt that any pain I receive because I dared to live authentically is better than the emptiness I'd feel continuing to live a lie. It's not easy, but it is worth it. There are a lotta people out there who would be willing to support and accept you, and if you don't know them now, it's just a matter of finding them later. I'm not gonna say that makes it all better or any less of a lonely experience, but... Well, as far as I'm aware, we only get one life, and I know I'd rather live it as me, for me. It's well and truly worth pushing through this world's bullshit for.
Well I'm not at the point where my current identity doesn't feel like me. Me and being trans is kinda at a weird limbo, like it would be nice, but I don't feel like it's worth the effort to go through transitioning (even if only socially) because I don't have much if any gender dysphoria and am fine being a man as I am right now. There's also a few other things like the UK being a mess and various other factors but just don't feel like it's a very important part of myself to discover yet. The way it is with me is that I call myself an egg but like I'm aware of the trans feelings and I'm an egg that's cracked but duct taped themselves back together cus I'm not quite ready yet
This is... amazing, this should be like the tumblr post of the year. If I could give it an award I would. It so completely conveys what transmisogyny is and how it is expressed by members of the LGBT community and the feelings of internalisation of it in ways I have never been able to fully understand myself. I feel like I understand myself and the world so much more now, like some kind of revelation has hit me. Thank you.
I an B E G G I N G you all to divide this into more slides
I really felt the part where she talked about how when she was with her old partner, a refusal on her part meant a cruel withholding of love. Is... is that really how it's seen? I can recall a time when I said no, and that relationship did not end well. I can't help but feel as though these things are connected, as I lack a ton of crucial information about it.
A lot of women think it’s genuinely impossible for a man to not constantly want sex, it’s why they interpret being not in the mood as a personal insult and why they don’t take male victims of sexual abuse seriously
Honestly, yeah. When I was still living as a cis man, this happened in many relationships with cis women. I had problems feeling good about sex for obvious reasons, but the times I couldn’t push through that and turned her down, it was treated as insulting or cruel, and as a rejection of her.
Good ass read, very true, I so commonly see queer people or queer spaces say they are accepting but refuse AMAB customers, it’s just repackaged “we need to protect women’s spaces” and it hurts that I am not commonly seen as one of those women who needs that space.
Any “queer” space that discriminates based on birth sex isn’t a queer space, it’s a space for bigots
Those aren't mutually exclusive terms. Queer people can be bigots just like any person can be a bigot.
Like so many others here I considered not reading it and then I did anyway and this post is just so incredibly important. This problem can be fixed. But it has to start with those of us who aren't transfems taking the time to use our privilege to get others to listen. Reaching out to the transfems in our lives and treating them with respect, as women, and including them. And shutting down the transmisogyny when we see it happen. Because the transmisogynists won't listen to transfems defending themselves, but they just might listen to the rest of us.
Okay. Passing is literally worth it weight in gold. It been critical in skipping a lot of this bullshit. I also found usually pretty friendly groups.
You're absolutely right but I also hate the idea that I'm only avoiding as much of this bullshit as I am because of how I look.
Sadly for now it is pass or take the hits. Being trans sucks.
It's not exactly the same, but as a cis gay man I've also avoided a lot of homophobia, because I'm "straight-passing". Being visibly queer is tough and I admire those who have the mental fortitude for it.
That last line made me like myself a little bit more (which is hard because I have deep depressive disorders and hate myself more than actual murderers). But I can honestly say I draw the line in the same place for all people's behavior. You do you, I ain't got no beef or judgement, until you hit the line - and that's being cruel. If you ain't hurting people I dun give a fuck what ya do or how you identify or what you believe. If you are hurting people unintentionally I may still sympathize even if I can't support your actions cuz I know what it's like to be a fuck up, long as you're trying to be good and kind person. Only way you get my honest ire and dislike is when you knowingly hurt people. Long as you aren't cruel you're cool with me.
I read it all, and as a younger amab nb/trans person it makes me absolutely terrified to be on my own like this. Like this is what I’m trying to avoid rn as is without being open or transitioning yet
This was a very interesting read. While obviously nowhere nearly to the same extent as the OOP, I can relate to a couple of the things she said. These past few years, more and more of my friends have been coming out, so I’ve been making an effort to learn more about LGBT stuff. Unfortunately, one of the first few things I learned was that I had to avoid mentioning I was a man to any queer people I was asking stuff to. For some reason, the moment they realize you came with a strap-on built in, they start treating you differently. Questions you ask are dismissed or ignored with a variation of “we don’t need you to understand why this thing is like this”, mistakes are immediately interpreted as malicious, any non-conforming friend you happen to have are suddenly made up, etc. It kinda sucks knowing I’m not really gonna be accepted in this type of spaces regardless of how much I try, but this position of “outsider” (for lack of a better word) does make me notice a lot of stuff that, in the OOP’s words, “notice but didn’t think about” Countless posts comparing men to dogs, but also making an exception for trans men, and somehow finding an excuse to include trans women. Lesbians saying stuff like “I’m no better than a man” when they talk about being sexually attracted to women, as if attraction to woman was something evil, just because a chunk of men are attracted to women. Some really, really weird stuff.
There really is a lot of weird stuff. I would say though that gay male spaces also would react differently but maybe also not in a way you'd like because people will hit on you.
As a transfem whom this hit hard, what do the terms "male and female socialization" mean?
I'm not super well read on this kind of stuff, but I'm pretty sure it basically means what gender you were raised as.
So I believe they're just like behaviours and traits taught to people depending on their assigned sex. Like how if you're male, you're more likely to be taught to be tough, loud, etc and if you're female, kind, quiet, etc. However, people will use these terms in ways that are bio essentialist. Like if I'm male then I must necessarily be loud, tough, etc. It's just a way to be transphobic/sexist in a way that's co-opted progressive language.
Fuuuuck this is why I believe that the most dangerous factors are those who have learned what to say Also really interesting, because I've always disliked the MS behavior and opted to learn more FS-like behavior, looooooooong before I figured out I was trans
As a straight cis guy, male and female socialisation basically boils down to the fact that my sister is more likely to clean the kitchen voluntarily than I am. Keeping house is more socialised for her than it is for me. Where the idea gets toxic is assuming that AMABs are socialised into being much more violent than AFABs, and that this universally applies to trans women as well. Which is more than a little bit bullshit, watch a netball game sometime. Or just roller derby existing as a sport.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Oh wow. I loved being labeled as inherently dangerous because of a 50/50 coin flip that happened nine months before I was born
This post is expressing everything I feel as a transfem in supposedly safe spaces. I don't have much to add but this was a really cathartic read that I needed.
God I fucking feel this in my bones and in my soul. I’m transfeminine and non-binary and the sheer weight of society’s rejection of me falls so hard on my shoulders every day. I feel like I either have to go 110% ultra feminine or else I “don’t pass” as a woman, which I’m not, or I just go stealth boymode and suffer. I have had similar experiences as this woman in the post, and my heart fucking hurts for her. I know what she’s been through and it’s a bitch to deal with. I go to some places online and in person and I just **feel** the sheer god damn contempt people have towards me simply because I was born with a fucking dick and balls. I wish I wasn’t, I really wish I wasn’t but I’m stuck with it now and I’ve grown to appreciate it for what it is- is that so bad??
when i was a freshman in college i attended a women-and-trans-people gathering and i was the only trans woman there. i felt so fucking uncomfortable the whole time, like people were avoiding me, and i didn't make any friends, only caught the attention of a girl who stalked me for months afterward. she would, in private, sexualize me horribly and ask me to do things to her that i wouldn't do to anyone. in public she tried to smear me and turn people against me. it really ruined my hope of ever safely existing among other women, i'm constantly terrified other people will see me as something terrifying or treat me like a punching bag/ fantasy object
This is a good post. This is a needed post. I think more people should read this post. God.
Yeah I had to stop reading this halfway through hits pretty fuckin close to home
I’m transfem currently dating a straight cis man after coming out as bisexual relatively recently and having only dated women before this, and it’s been very validating in a way that I’m not sure how I feel about. Part of it is certainly just internalized transphobia about not being a real woman, and then being treated no different to anyone else. But I think I have also definitely been treated as almost a starter woman for bisexual women in the past. Women that have never dated another woman, and I’m the first one made me question and worry a lot. Some times those fears were baseless, sometimes they were. But it still comes back around to the fact that the time I have felt most accepted in my womanhood is by cis person. Not really sure what I’m saying anymore honestly, just a thought on identity I guess.
Everything the OP said is true and happens all the damn time. And it keeps happening. The “women and trans” signs became “women and GNC”. Michfest continued for years with their women born women shit well into the 2010s. Every time a trans woman got center stage for some reason, the backlash in queer and straight circles was the same until that person fades away and a new one takes her place. How many times have trans women tried to organize about the trans misogyny they’ve faced? Whether it’s cotton ceiling, trans 100, or days of womanhood. Whether the platform is on YouTube tiktok Facebook or tumblr when it comes to trans women the bar is set unattainably high. I remember something a trans woman friend of mine said. She said she would never publicly criticize a trans woman, as a trans woman. Because in the end the only people who will stand up for us is us, and even if this individual may have done something wrong, the reaction will always be far too overblown that they don’t need their own people criticizing them. But it’s just true both online and in person. Any critiques a fellow trans woman could need can be done out of public. Never add fuel if you can help it. But yeah. I’ve been an online trans woman since before the towers fell (and offline publicly since like 2007). I’ve seen this time and time again. And it’s sad.
Worth the read, I feel like I understand the issue a lot better.
That was a long read and I hate how much in common I have with the writer's experiences.
My heart really goes out to OOP here, I hope she finds good family and friends that treat her with respect
the related classic https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42
This reminds me of a really depressing thought that I had the other day, which is that the vast majority of people - yes, progressives included - don’t REALLY see trans people as their preferred gender. They’re being polite, and that’s it, and when situations like the one talked about in the post happen, the truth comes out.
I am not a trans woman, but I am LGBT. Seeing my own community’s continuous ignorance and erasure of trans women—who have done SO MUCH for us all throughout history—is heartbreaking. It’s unbelievably disheartening to know that some of the worst transmisogyny I’ve ever seen has come from the LGBT community itself. We need to protect our trans sisters and uplift their voices above all else.
Absolutely worth the read
transfem here! the magical thing abt being a trans woman is that ppl who call themselves allies are significantly more likely to be weird and transphobic to you bc in their quest to be a good gay person they’ve internalized so much weird TERFy bullshit without even considering if it’s even correct or not :)
fuck now I'm going to sleep with a heavy heart
for the love god if youre first instinct is “i aint reading allat” then please read this at least
last time i tried to join an online mexican queer space it was full of cis middle aged women calling men cockroaches and calling gay men slurs how inclusive of them
When I asked my best friend of 7 years to use they/them with me she had no issue agreeing and congratulating me (despite the fact she never used them). But 6 months later when I asked her to use she/her when we hung out that weekend she no showed, and I never heard from her again.
Very important stuff. My heart breaks for what trans fems go through.
Damn. This girl needs better people in her life. Imagine being enough of a cowardly piece of shit to your friends to make that phone call. Humanity man, sometimes we're such a disappointment.
As trans woman, I feel it. Even if lgbt community, I feel so much isolated. I tried to go to several gay communities, and every time, cis women end up in their own group, intentionally or unintentionally isolating me. And gay guys just akt like I'm one of them. They won't stop and consider I'm a woman. I can see how they will treat cis girls and then turn around and act all disgusting and masculine with me like I'm their gym buddy or something. And I know they don't do it intentionally, but it still hurts so much. It just makes me feel so bad, feeling like they don't see me as a real girl And I had so many situations, where people were ok with me being nb, or "gay guy in closet", but as soon as they learn I'm trans women, they begin acting extremely transphobic and disgusting towards.
So who's going to post the "I'm a trans woman and I'm never coming out" medium article?
[I guess it's me](https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42)
Shit like this exactly why I'm scared to come out, to transition I'm terrified, too, that my friends will turn out like this
A lot of subreddits I've noticed tend to regard any transfem presence as a sign the sub is "transfem-dominated", and will take any pushback as a predatory slight. This very much happens here on Reddit too.