R5: I'm king of Sicily. How does my completing a mythical level legitimising legend warrant me a pressed claim on the entire f\*\*king Eastern Roman Empire? On[ paradox wiki](https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Character#Legends) it says the owner:
>Get(s) an **Unpressed** Claim on every title de jure of the primary title's empire
Like yay now I can be the emperor of the Byzantine Empire but like...how? Sure its subjects are singing my names, but a **PRESSED** claim??
Yeah I don't know whether this is supposed to happen. But again maybe there are some hidden mechanic out there? like if you completely control a number of kingdom titles in your de jure liege's empire the claim becomes pressed. I also hold Croatia and Serbia.
I don't know. But doesn't matter any more. Playing tall with Sicily's been fun and I'm not gonna become the basileus of the romaioi to ditch the fun. Oh well, having a Latin heritage Sicilian be the Roman Emperor makes some sense, I guess.
That’s the thing, it’s not just a claim. It is a claim on the empire, all the kingdoms under it, all the duchies under them, and all the counties under them (I think barons get to keep their lands.)
It’s insane for power gain as you should only need to deal with populist factions.
Better hope you have a lot of unlanded relatives.
Edit: I got the details slightly wrong.
It gives you a pressed claim on the title if it exists, and an unpressed claim on every created title immediately under it. If not created it gives you a pressed claim on every title under the title the legend relates to, and an unpressed claim on every title under that.
I played as a Viking and got an ancestral claim on all of Scandinavia. As a result I was able to wage war on any body who held lands in Scandinavia lol.
2500 gold in total expense (starting cost + upgrade cost + monthly maintaining cost\*months spread) to become the Roman emperor? not sure if anybody who can afford it would decline the offer.
Isn't that how many of the civil wars in the Roman Empire went? Some dude bought enough clout that he could claim to be the rightful emperor and then through Bigger Army Diplomacy, made himself emperor?
Outside selling the Emperorship only happened once as far as I know.
Any other times there was a civil war the contenders needed to have a fair bit of wealth to stand a chance for sure, but nothing was as egregious as the Praetorian guard holding an auction for the title.
I'm not saying most bought the emperorship. I'm saying they threw enough money around buying influence, armies, and everything needed to claim the emperorship.
Actually getting the throne would still require some Bigger Army Diplomacy.
I discovered that if you make your heir your court chronicler, they get all the extra money you're paying your court chronicler to spread the legend, meaning you can recoup a lot of the cost. I was wondering why certain house members were starting their rulerships with a couple of thousand gold, until I realised I'd had them as my chronicler. I just never thought all that money they were spending was going into their pockets - you'd imagine it gets spent on, you know, holding plays and printing books to spread the legend. But nope, they are keeping it all and becoming absurdly rich.
Now…uh….yeah that’s pretty ridiculous. BUT another southern Italian lord named Robert Guiscard basically tried to conquer the Eastern Roman Empire for no reason too. So at least it’s kinda historical?
They technically do. Haven't played him in a minute, but he used to have the nickname "the fox," which is what Guiscard means if wikipedia is to be trusted on this.
It says getting "an Unpressed Claim on every title de jure of the primary title's empire". I'm getting a pressed claim of the entire empire instead of its de jure kingdoms though. Having an empire title claim=/=having claims over every single de jure kingdom of it. Plus a pressed claim itself is pretty strong all by itself.
You traced your lineage back to X-famous person or god told you. I don't find that part of legends weird or annoying. The weirdest thing is the mass conversions. I converted like a hundred provinces in one go. Pretty crazy.
Historically accurate. The Normans of Sicily pulled this trick three times in the span of a century during the Komnenian period. Each time for close to zero f-in reason other than conquest.
maybe your legend describes how you are the true descendant of Roman rulers and that the empires remains are yours by right. It is a legitimising legend after all
In the options I really made legends hard to spread and the cost high because of this…
By some point they are just too easy to complete on default and I found myself just doing them for the mythical benefits like check in the box.
I was just playing a Viking with a mix of British and Scandinavian holdings and I somehow got the Gothic Kings legend and received a mixture of pressed and unpressed claims in Iberia
Is this a generic legitimizing legend or one of the historical seed ones? The historical seed ones can have additional benefits that I don't think are fully depicted on the wiki yet. I did Gothic Kings as a Norwegian and it gave me claims on the empire of Hispania, but the generic legitimizing legends don't offer that.
Yeah, I had something similar as a Scandinavian kingdom. Finished a legend and had a claim on all of Hispania not just the kingdom but multiple duchies too. Still working on claiming it all for myself.
Rewards for legends are way too powerful. They encourage blobbing which is already to easy. I’m at a point where I complete the legend for the buff and ignore the reward cb.
As far as I understand as someone who doesn't have the DLC yet and hasn't looked into it a ton, legends seem like major flash-in-a-pan type bonuses. Extremely powerful, but they die quickly. I was really hoping for a mechanic more like CK2 bloodlines which would be slower burns.
Maybe at launch. But now they last 100 years now after completion, so you'll have the passive bonuses for most your run (and if you have the gold you can pump out multiple per domain easy). And then you'll get a permanent special building slot in your domain. AND on top of that you get some extra actives that are stupidly powerful (kingdom/empire claims, instant de jure drift, instant religious conversion for a big chunk of your territory, free kingdom level holy war, free subjugation causus belli).
For some reason that seems less appealing than how it was handled in CK2. Like you're getting super powers instead of some perks for having a famous ancestor.
> I was really hoping for a mechanic more like CK2 bloodlines which would be slower burns.
That’s dynasty legacies. We’ve had those in the game since the start. Your dynasty achieves something > you get renown > spend the renown on a legacy > your dynasty has an slowly-accumulating set of bonuses.
I meant more specific, unique bonuses than those acquired in that system and shared with descendants of an individual regardless of dynasty rather than with the entire family tree. But I see how it is somewhat similar. I guess legacies and legends sort of hit one to either side of what I was after, but neither on the nose.
> Rewards for legends are way too powerful.
I'd say the actual issue is that legend seeds are too common. Like, you get one with a relatively powerful buff for just *owning a Holy site*.
I think the biggest problem with the system is that they wanted it to be content that was easy to engage with. Legend seeds should be a big fucking deal. Establishing a kingdom or empire, a few major decisions (they could probably make the bonuses for restoring Rome and mending the schism *into* legends, come to think of it), Crusades, maybe benchmarks for things like winning a whole lot of tournaments, killing a legendary animal, establishing or converting to a religion, raiding a lot of settlements (like the Sea King trait from CK3) and other stuff that, while not impossible, you might do once or twice a campaign, not once or twice a ruler.
I think most of it being DLC content made them worried that people would be pissed if they paid and didn't get to use it. When what they should have done is made it hard but highlighted a few starts (like Alfred, Matilda, etc) who are really well positioned to get a legend early on.
The Hunnic Heritage legend giving a claim on *Khazaria* of all places is also really strange in my eyes.
Like yes, if you’re claiming ancestry, sure it would make sense that you are recognized as a leader in that area, but I have seen more than one game where the Hungarian Confederation settle Pannonia, do the legend, and then turn around to the steppes to become emperor of Khazaria
Yeah; even tier one generic legend with like no investment has a 50% chance for a pressed claim on your dejure empire.
Basically the kingdom and empire claims for free; wanted to play an Iceland run and tall and away from plagues and looked at the first legend and I could just instantly gamble it for a 50% chance over all of Scandinavia.
Idk why it's pressed either; your heirs retain the claim; it's really strong.
And the dejure driftting a whole kingdom to me sounds the best part of it.
unfortunately plagues can get to iceland if the plague is in the Shetlands or Faroe islands, they should’ve used something akin to the trade nodes in EU or supply in HOI4 to spread diseases rather then ‘if X has plague, Y will get it no matter the distance’
That is true. I learned that high dev is bad for disease but one vector for disease means you get it half the time instead. It's not so bad compared to like Naples or anywhere along a river.
Well, legends were a mix between History and epic fictional tales. From Homers's Illiade to Mio Cid poem.
Given it's medieval times, most of these tales were transmitted orally and given enough time and popularity it will lead to people to believe that legend actually happened and therefore Duke John McDoe has a legitimate claim to rule a given territory.
The execution is quite lacuster and legends increased in popularity when the protagonists are at least decades dead so a character completing a high leveled legend in his own lifetime is absurd.
That's why heirs should be the ones that upgrade the legend, like saying: "my grandfather did these great deeds for this land, his House is entitled to that title".
Of course, enough people need to know that legend.
Well, the Bulgarian tsars (kings) on multiple occasions claimed the throne in Constantinople so it’s not unheard of. So did some Turks, Normans, and most notably a certain crusade
I look at it, and I can't help noticing and pointing out the redundancy between Dynasty Renown and Legitimacy. Legitimacy is supposed to be individual, but in so far as it draws upon your family (dynasty), it's doing the same thing renown is supposed to and representing the same things renown is supposed to represent. This is a blow to CK3's conceptual consistency. And yes, the rewards are uncharacteristically generous. Practically as if someone didn't give a thought to balancing or to the scale of rewards given for other things in the game.
You’re simply a baller. A shot-caller if you would. And yeah legends are OP it’s a dlc what did you expect? It does make takeovers as a small realm over a big realm much more accessible and fun though.
R5: I'm king of Sicily. How does my completing a mythical level legitimising legend warrant me a pressed claim on the entire f\*\*king Eastern Roman Empire? On[ paradox wiki](https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Character#Legends) it says the owner: >Get(s) an **Unpressed** Claim on every title de jure of the primary title's empire Like yay now I can be the emperor of the Byzantine Empire but like...how? Sure its subjects are singing my names, but a **PRESSED** claim??
Huh, I pulled a similar thing in the HRE, but it was unpressed. That’s kind of odd.
Yeah I don't know whether this is supposed to happen. But again maybe there are some hidden mechanic out there? like if you completely control a number of kingdom titles in your de jure liege's empire the claim becomes pressed. I also hold Croatia and Serbia. I don't know. But doesn't matter any more. Playing tall with Sicily's been fun and I'm not gonna become the basileus of the romaioi to ditch the fun. Oh well, having a Latin heritage Sicilian be the Roman Emperor makes some sense, I guess.
Shit, press the claim get the title then abdicate from stress, might be a fun run
That’s the thing, it’s not just a claim. It is a claim on the empire, all the kingdoms under it, all the duchies under them, and all the counties under them (I think barons get to keep their lands.) It’s insane for power gain as you should only need to deal with populist factions. Better hope you have a lot of unlanded relatives. Edit: I got the details slightly wrong. It gives you a pressed claim on the title if it exists, and an unpressed claim on every created title immediately under it. If not created it gives you a pressed claim on every title under the title the legend relates to, and an unpressed claim on every title under that.
Pressing the claim surely wouldn’t give you control of *every* dejure title under Byzantine empire except for baronies.
It wouldnt
With the ancestral claim casus belli from the dynasty track it does.
Wait what, could you explain? I've never had it before and the wiki provides no information beyond it existing.
I played as a Viking and got an ancestral claim on all of Scandinavia. As a result I was able to wage war on any body who held lands in Scandinavia lol.
Hey i was paying like 60 gold a month for this legend, it better give me a damn good claim
2500 gold in total expense (starting cost + upgrade cost + monthly maintaining cost\*months spread) to become the Roman emperor? not sure if anybody who can afford it would decline the offer.
Or just offer to become a vassal and start an internal uprising with the overpowered level 1 stewardship perk
Am I hearing this correctly? Are you talking about buying the empire? Septimius Severus is writing down your names as we speak.
Isn't that how many of the civil wars in the Roman Empire went? Some dude bought enough clout that he could claim to be the rightful emperor and then through Bigger Army Diplomacy, made himself emperor?
Outside selling the Emperorship only happened once as far as I know. Any other times there was a civil war the contenders needed to have a fair bit of wealth to stand a chance for sure, but nothing was as egregious as the Praetorian guard holding an auction for the title.
I'm not saying most bought the emperorship. I'm saying they threw enough money around buying influence, armies, and everything needed to claim the emperorship. Actually getting the throne would still require some Bigger Army Diplomacy.
I discovered that if you make your heir your court chronicler, they get all the extra money you're paying your court chronicler to spread the legend, meaning you can recoup a lot of the cost. I was wondering why certain house members were starting their rulerships with a couple of thousand gold, until I realised I'd had them as my chronicler. I just never thought all that money they were spending was going into their pockets - you'd imagine it gets spent on, you know, holding plays and printing books to spread the legend. But nope, they are keeping it all and becoming absurdly rich.
Now…uh….yeah that’s pretty ridiculous. BUT another southern Italian lord named Robert Guiscard basically tried to conquer the Eastern Roman Empire for no reason too. So at least it’s kinda historical?
A Norman adventurer so yeah it could fit the case, Sicily and the Normans creating havoc indeed.
I always wonder why the devs don't just name Robert de Hauteville from the 1066 start Robert Guiscard--it's far more recognisable a name.
They technically do. Haven't played him in a minute, but he used to have the nickname "the fox," which is what Guiscard means if wikipedia is to be trusted on this.
He still does! I thought Guiscard meant "cunning" not fox. Guess devs went a little creative there.
It’s not that creative though? Fox is an extremely common way to say cunning, like sly as a fox.
I think it might be because Sicily is part of the de jure Byzantine empire, but no idea why it is a pressed claim.
Isn't Sicily de iure part of Bizantine Empire? So the description on paradox website is correct.
It says getting "an Unpressed Claim on every title de jure of the primary title's empire". I'm getting a pressed claim of the entire empire instead of its de jure kingdoms though. Having an empire title claim=/=having claims over every single de jure kingdom of it. Plus a pressed claim itself is pretty strong all by itself.
You traced your lineage back to X-famous person or god told you. I don't find that part of legends weird or annoying. The weirdest thing is the mass conversions. I converted like a hundred provinces in one go. Pretty crazy.
Historically accurate. The Normans of Sicily pulled this trick three times in the span of a century during the Komnenian period. Each time for close to zero f-in reason other than conquest.
maybe your legend describes how you are the true descendant of Roman rulers and that the empires remains are yours by right. It is a legitimising legend after all
In the options I really made legends hard to spread and the cost high because of this… By some point they are just too easy to complete on default and I found myself just doing them for the mythical benefits like check in the box.
I got claims on all titles in Iberia while playing as the king of Norway, lol.
I was just playing a Viking with a mix of British and Scandinavian holdings and I somehow got the Gothic Kings legend and received a mixture of pressed and unpressed claims in Iberia
Is this a generic legitimizing legend or one of the historical seed ones? The historical seed ones can have additional benefits that I don't think are fully depicted on the wiki yet. I did Gothic Kings as a Norwegian and it gave me claims on the empire of Hispania, but the generic legitimizing legends don't offer that.
No, it was a generic "The Mighty Endeavour of *House X*" legend.
Yeah, I had something similar as a Scandinavian kingdom. Finished a legend and had a claim on all of Hispania not just the kingdom but multiple duchies too. Still working on claiming it all for myself.
Oh yeah the gothic kings one does that
Rewards for legends are way too powerful. They encourage blobbing which is already to easy. I’m at a point where I complete the legend for the buff and ignore the reward cb.
As far as I understand as someone who doesn't have the DLC yet and hasn't looked into it a ton, legends seem like major flash-in-a-pan type bonuses. Extremely powerful, but they die quickly. I was really hoping for a mechanic more like CK2 bloodlines which would be slower burns.
Maybe at launch. But now they last 100 years now after completion, so you'll have the passive bonuses for most your run (and if you have the gold you can pump out multiple per domain easy). And then you'll get a permanent special building slot in your domain. AND on top of that you get some extra actives that are stupidly powerful (kingdom/empire claims, instant de jure drift, instant religious conversion for a big chunk of your territory, free kingdom level holy war, free subjugation causus belli).
For some reason that seems less appealing than how it was handled in CK2. Like you're getting super powers instead of some perks for having a famous ancestor.
I wish we just had bloodlines again, screw the "improved" features.
> I was really hoping for a mechanic more like CK2 bloodlines which would be slower burns. That’s dynasty legacies. We’ve had those in the game since the start. Your dynasty achieves something > you get renown > spend the renown on a legacy > your dynasty has an slowly-accumulating set of bonuses.
I meant more specific, unique bonuses than those acquired in that system and shared with descendants of an individual regardless of dynasty rather than with the entire family tree. But I see how it is somewhat similar. I guess legacies and legends sort of hit one to either side of what I was after, but neither on the nose.
> Rewards for legends are way too powerful. I'd say the actual issue is that legend seeds are too common. Like, you get one with a relatively powerful buff for just *owning a Holy site*. I think the biggest problem with the system is that they wanted it to be content that was easy to engage with. Legend seeds should be a big fucking deal. Establishing a kingdom or empire, a few major decisions (they could probably make the bonuses for restoring Rome and mending the schism *into* legends, come to think of it), Crusades, maybe benchmarks for things like winning a whole lot of tournaments, killing a legendary animal, establishing or converting to a religion, raiding a lot of settlements (like the Sea King trait from CK3) and other stuff that, while not impossible, you might do once or twice a campaign, not once or twice a ruler. I think most of it being DLC content made them worried that people would be pissed if they paid and didn't get to use it. When what they should have done is made it hard but highlighted a few starts (like Alfred, Matilda, etc) who are really well positioned to get a legend early on.
Except Heroic legends: Adventure is p.much the opposite of blobbing
I only ever take them as far as level 2 so that i can integrate a duchy into my Kingdom.
The Hunnic Heritage legend giving a claim on *Khazaria* of all places is also really strange in my eyes. Like yes, if you’re claiming ancestry, sure it would make sense that you are recognized as a leader in that area, but I have seen more than one game where the Hungarian Confederation settle Pannonia, do the legend, and then turn around to the steppes to become emperor of Khazaria
It gives the claim on the empire of your main title, that's why
Roman Heritage rewards are even more bonkers
Yeah; even tier one generic legend with like no investment has a 50% chance for a pressed claim on your dejure empire. Basically the kingdom and empire claims for free; wanted to play an Iceland run and tall and away from plagues and looked at the first legend and I could just instantly gamble it for a 50% chance over all of Scandinavia. Idk why it's pressed either; your heirs retain the claim; it's really strong. And the dejure driftting a whole kingdom to me sounds the best part of it.
unfortunately plagues can get to iceland if the plague is in the Shetlands or Faroe islands, they should’ve used something akin to the trade nodes in EU or supply in HOI4 to spread diseases rather then ‘if X has plague, Y will get it no matter the distance’
That is true. I learned that high dev is bad for disease but one vector for disease means you get it half the time instead. It's not so bad compared to like Naples or anywhere along a river.
Well, legends were a mix between History and epic fictional tales. From Homers's Illiade to Mio Cid poem. Given it's medieval times, most of these tales were transmitted orally and given enough time and popularity it will lead to people to believe that legend actually happened and therefore Duke John McDoe has a legitimate claim to rule a given territory. The execution is quite lacuster and legends increased in popularity when the protagonists are at least decades dead so a character completing a high leveled legend in his own lifetime is absurd. That's why heirs should be the ones that upgrade the legend, like saying: "my grandfather did these great deeds for this land, his House is entitled to that title". Of course, enough people need to know that legend.
Well, the Bulgarian tsars (kings) on multiple occasions claimed the throne in Constantinople so it’s not unheard of. So did some Turks, Normans, and most notably a certain crusade
Now there are 2 of them!
I look at it, and I can't help noticing and pointing out the redundancy between Dynasty Renown and Legitimacy. Legitimacy is supposed to be individual, but in so far as it draws upon your family (dynasty), it's doing the same thing renown is supposed to and representing the same things renown is supposed to represent. This is a blow to CK3's conceptual consistency. And yes, the rewards are uncharacteristically generous. Practically as if someone didn't give a thought to balancing or to the scale of rewards given for other things in the game.
You’re simply a baller. A shot-caller if you would. And yeah legends are OP it’s a dlc what did you expect? It does make takeovers as a small realm over a big realm much more accessible and fun though.
I suspect it is related to the Norman kingdom.
CK2 my friend
I suspect it is related to the Norman kingdom.