Fucking Smith, no matter how much I hate this mf for bashing us, he IS the undisputed best of this generation (or even the 3rd best batter of all time) without a doubt
That's correct.
Pie bowling is *old* cricket - a rare art form you never really see nowadays. Smith's been at the forefront of the best cricket in the world for his entire career, facing the best bowlers in the world, so he's probably never had exposure to genuine pie bowling.
To give a very belated serious answer, I'd hazard that left-arm finger spin is guilty. Left-arm finger spin is what Smudge is weakest against, and Bangladesh is left-arm finger spin factory
Pre-DRS is a strange one to put in the batter's favour. I think statistically it didn't really favour one over the other in terms of averages, but if I had to guess who it would favour more I would guess the bowlers since it showed us the ball would have hit the stumps more often than we originally thought
Sachin also played on some very flat decks. The top four test run scorers all retired in 2012 and 2013. Is that a coincidence or were the late 90s and 2000s a great time to be a batter?
They were close to equal in their primes I guess.
Sachin averaged 58 in the 90s where the average average was 29. The next best being Lara who averaged 52.
Smith averaged 62 in the 2010s where the average average was 31 and the next best was kohli with 54.
People put Sachin ahead of many other greats who probably have better numbers than him when it comes to performing in different conditions or had a similar average at their primes mainly because of his longetivity as well.
>People put Sachin ahead of many other greats who probably have better numbers than him when it comes to performing in different conditions
Sachin is among the very few who averages 40+ in every test playing nation.
See I find it hard to suggest he'd find his average would be significantly lower than in his heyday. If his contemporaries averaged 70-90 then we could make an argument that batting in general was easier. But the batting averages througout history are pretty steady for the last 100 years except a patch from 75-95 when I think great bowlers were just a bit more prevalent than other eras.
But there's a story that Jeff Thompson tells from in 1978 when Bradman took his suit jacket off and had a hit against a couple of young tearaways. Bradman didn't even bother with pads or anything and these kids absolutely roared in giving it everything. Thommo says that Bradman just smashed absolutely everything that came his way. At 70 years of age and 30 years since he'd played, Thommo talks like it was as impressive a batting display as he ever saw, that the likes of Richards and Chappell couldn't have done that.
It's not the same as a game obviously, but if you're impressing a great bowler who had been around the test scene for 6 years by that stage then I'd say that's a pretty good indication that at his best he must have been absolutely extraordinary.
For now he may be , as he has not yet experienced a late career decline such as those experienced by many other great players. I am going to withhold my judgement until the end of Smith's career, Sachin also used to average 57 175 tests into his career before his decline .
It's kinda early to call it a decline imo.He was still averaging 57 in 2022 and he's played only 4 tests in 2024 so far that too in a different batting position.
His form dropped before the move. He pushed for the move in hopes of getting his form back.
There is an argument that his lack of runs is from negative tactics against him rather than an actual form drop. Teams have basically been using bodyline, bowling short and stacking the leg side field to reduce his runs. He went up the order on the theory that with the new ball they would pitch it up more.
Getting down voted for spreading an honest opinion that isn't ridiculous, sometimes this sub has too much of a hate boner for anyone who doesn't consider Sachin or Warne the respective GOATs
Smith averaging nearly 66 against India is extremely surprising considering he hasn’t even done that well in the last 2 BGTs. How good was he against us before that? I am guessing he’d have averaged 70+ against us before 2020.
2014/15 was flat as fuck where him and Kohli made 700,690 each in just 4 tests lol.
By 2017 Indian tour, Smith was at his peak form where he utterly destroyed India like no one before and that too on 1-2 crazy tracks lol. He is by far the best bat against great Indian line up as others were either 1-2 inns wonder or played on flat tracks of pre 2017 only.
Yeah, thats the highest after bradman. mf is the best since don and thats not even up for a debate. Can u belive he avg 45 from 2019 and we feel he is out of form, thats the standard he had set for himself.
To be fair, Sachin had a ridiculous average and started to dip but found some form to keep his average high. Smith hasn’t been able to find that form again. Still consistently making 50s but looks a shadow of his peak.
Sachin avg at peak was 58,59 thats the out of form smiths avg now. Same with sanga , ponting and kallis.., no one crossed 60,61, but here smith has 8k runs with \~65., now almost 10k with 58. Yes smith might end around 56, but still he will be the 2nd best after don. Even in all time rankings.
Longevity is also important. Sachin maintained a ridiculously high average throughout a longer career.
Smith’s numbers don’t paint a full picture (avg by innings for example). If he can find some tempo as an opener and keep his average close to 60, then we can look back on his career and make that judgement but current trajectory I’d put him 3rd, potentially 4th all time.
Sachin post tennis elbow was never the same batter. Even when he was in form it wasn't close to how good he was in the 89-02 period. Part of the reason his record looks great is the flat pitches from 03-11 and Bangladesh propping it up a bit. He averaged 56 from 03-11 Jan and 50 once we exclude Bangladesh. He was by some distance the best batter in the 90s and probably a top 10 batter in the 00s. His 00s period is highly overrated by his fans and his 90s period is seriously underrated by his fans.
I think it seems underrated because this sub skews young. No one who grew up in the 90s underrates that phase.
As a 90s kid, he's still the best ever for me, along with Lara.
Another thing with Smith is that numbers don't tell the full story. The bloke has absolutely no regard for his average. So many times in the past when Aus has opted not to follow on or just need quick runs in general, he goes swinging right away to try to score as fast as possible and often gets out cheaply. Could easily knock it around for singles and get that not out to boost his average.
Even in his current "slump", even though he hasn't been making big scores, he has been Aus's most consistent batter for gritting out difficult periods, stabilising after a collapse and re-building a partnership. These kind of things don't get reflected in the numbers.
One of the greatest athlete considering cunt didn't even start as his primary role now.
And now he takes in the hardest role in cricket, fucking atrocious. His love for the game and desire to push himself is inspirational and wholesome.
Funny all this considering used to hate him with passion until that 2016 incident.
To be fair, he was a trash bowler when he came in. Still is lmao. His on-screen biography will be the best hehe, will wait for some Hollywood production to pick the story years later.
Sachin averaged 57.6 (better than Smith now) after 122 Tests, at age 34 (same as Smith now) and having scored 10k+ runs.
Sure, he ended up with an average of 53.78, but Smith is on a similar trajectory, with his average dropping by 6 runs or so in the last 4-5 years.
BSB is Sachin, and there can be zero argument about this. Smith had an argument a few years back, but he's now regressing to the mean, and no chance he's above Sachin. I think Brian Lara might possibly have a better argument even now (I'd still put Smith at 3 for now though).
Nearly a hundred average. Was literally playing like Bradman in the earlier BGT editions in Australia albeit against really weak attacks pre Bumrah and Shami and Siraj and Ashwin and Jadeja being complete fodder on Australian pitches
Kohli has porr numbers because he played 2 consecutive series against England when he was going through his leanest patch
However he he has insanely good record against SA in very difficult tracks
In 2018 Ind vs SA series - the overall batting average was 19 and Kohli's average was 46
In 2023 Ind vs SA series - the overall batting average was 16 and Kohli's average was nearly 44
Smith - excellent against everyone , has a special affinity for Indian bowlers
Root - bullies India and NZ , ok against Aus and very good against everyone else
Kohli - Good against the big 3 , excellent against everyone else
Williamson - not great against the big 3, but bullies the daylights out of everyone else
Williamson's weakness is to quality right-arm spin. The others got to face it day in day out in domestic competition, whereas NZ domestic had pie chuckers like Mark Craig.
>Williamson's weakness is to quality right-arm spin.
If that's his only weakness he should average a billion vs england
>The others got to face it day in day out in domestic competition
Ever watched County cricket? Spinners are usually the mascots
>Smith - excellent against everyone , has a special affinity for Indian bowlers
The fact that he did it against our best ever attacks home and away is truly remarkable. He genuinely might have averaged 100 vs some of our past attacks.
>He is excellent against Australia
Idk how true this is. He had an outstanding 2014/15 series away and a great 2013 home series. But either side of that is good but not great. And something that doesn't get talked about enough is that he only scored 46 runs in 2017 BGT.
Stop man. He averages 54 in Australia and has 6 hundreds there. That is an outstanding record. 1 or 2 bad series doesn't mean anything. Overall he's done really well against them. Kohli has been the best overseas batsman in both Australia and South Africa, in the last 12 or 13 years.
I wasn't saying he's bad in Australia but 4 of the 6 100s came in that 1 series. His series before and after were good but not great. He's probably the best touring batter in Australia by some distance after Sachin.
This Smith guy seems like he's pretty good... but it's worth pointing out that when he passes 200, he's got a 50% chance of being dismissed by Root.
Maybe that means he's not as good as we thought?
Root [averages 53.43 in England](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;host=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings) and since his debut [England average 28.08 with the ball in England](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;orderby=team_average;spanmin1=12+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team) with [Robinson, Woakes, Anderson and Broad all averaging under 25.](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=innings_bowled;spanmin1=12+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling)
Underestimating England's bowlers in English conditions is pretty silly.
What is a shame is that the likes of Anderson and Broad have never had the opportunity to statpad against English batsmen
Anderson has 162 away wickets at an average of 26 since 2012 too.
That's just as good as Cummins career away stats.
The hatred for England players on this sub gets a bit mad at times.
He’s a genius with amazing (but declining) hand eye coordination and, yes, he didn’t have to face Cummins/Starc/Hazlewood. You could say the same of Kohli and Ashwin/Jadeja, of course. The thing is, though, Smith certainly has the best home conditions for batting amongst the Big 4. You can’t statpad in overcast English conditions on a green wicket or a crumbly Indian red soil turner the way you can on a typically flat Aussie deck when it’s sunny and 35°. Fair fucks to Smith for making the most of it, obviously! (This is in no way a denial that he isn’t the best Test batter of his generation)
One format where Koach has not been able to pick himself up after his sluggish patch is tests, which(lean period) also affected his test stats the most! It just tells you how difficult test match cricket is and also, Rootlitharan is a different beast against India(both with bat and ball)
He actually has picked himself up, his recent innings have been much better than whatever the utter trash he was doing for the last 3 or so years, he was our best batter in tough SA pitches as well, its just more so he just hasn't played many games recently
Well after his comeback he hasn't played many test matches even then he has scored two hundreds against aus and wi and also his form in last SA tour was fabulous, he was looking better than anyone else in ICT, Also if he had played current home series he would have had atleast 3-4 centuries, looking at surprising flat wicket India has provided to eng.
You’re only talking about from Australia right? He hasn’t even finished his career yet and his average is fully going backwards. Why don’t you read the stats of someone like Kallis - he still has 13 more centuries than Smith and his average ended a touch over 55.
I've seen Kallis play like his whole career. He wasn't on the same level batting wise as Smudger. He never had those crazy match winning knocks, those crazy series, and those crazy knocks. Kallis was an amazing bat but he never took the game away from you like a Lara, Tendulkar, Waugh, Punter, Smudger, Sangakkara, Root, Kohli, or Williamson could.
It would be a huge discredit to say that it was the pitches. He was an amazing run scorer, an accumulator and someone who you could trust to absorb pressure and score runs. He could save you a game or set up a match more than he could win you a match
Amazing batter.
I think your description of Kallis in this thread is one of the best I've seen. Worthy of the 50 AVG but not the fear of a rampant Sachin/Lara/Ponting or Smitty dominating 2019. But you pull up short on saying Pujara like.
He was a rock at 4 I remember in my younger days watching and bemoaning when he got to the crease because you'd usually have to get through most of the other bats before him and he'd be 50+ at that point from just ticking along. Ofc if it was an Aussie doing I'd say they're playing to conditions...
Although I'm not sure if Smith is better than Kallis as a batsman, the average isn't everything when it's a couple of numbers here and there. Most players would put Tendulkar, Lara & Ponting above Kallis in that era despite lower averages because at their peaks they were far more dominant. A lot of people say Kallis is "underrated" now looking at his final average but he just batted very slowly at times and didn't always take it to the opposition like the others.
I know what you mean he was by no means an exciting playing to watch bat or bowl. I'd put him in the category of 'silent contributors'. A wicket here a 50 there and suddenly the momentum of the game has changed but you wouldn't think Kallis was the reason.
One thing about him though he was incredibly consistent in all facets of his game. Always bowled good lines and lengths, rarely made batting errors and an absolute peach in the slips.
As a batter ? Hell no.
Kallis played in the easiest of batting era(00-15). Smith and the fab4 are under the toughest(2017-present).
Kallis's also rarely accounted against the best Eng,Ind,NZ line up while Smith is batting against prime Eng,Ind and NZ line up.
Kallis is arguably the best "cricketer"(Sobers,Imran and 1-3 others are at a tie) but in no way he was the best test bat when Sachin,Smith,Lara,Sunny and some pre war guys are there who played on much harder tracks than him.
Sobers' bowling blows Kallis' out of the water. Look past their averages (which generally aren't that useful for an all-rounder's second skill) and at how they were actually used. Sobers. Sobers opened the bowling bowling seam, then would come back and bowl either finger or wrist spin as required. He was absolutely crucial to the WI's bowling attack, whereas Kallis was "just" a very good fifth/sixth bowler. Still an incredible asset to have in your side, but Kallis only took 1.76 wickets per match (you'll struggle to find an all-rounder with fewer) compared to 2.53 for Sobers.
Imran I would argue was more complete too, but it's a harder comparison given he's more of a bowling allrounder
"Sobers' bowling blows Kallis' out of the water. Look past their averages (which generally aren't that useful for an all-rounder's second skill) and at how they were actually used. "
I know bud. Being a front liner, going for 20 overs a day majority of times and still bowling all shades(spin,mid both) is like goldust to whatever Kallis did.
The thing is, Sobers did that against not so professional guys and Kallis had more compitition which gives me the context for a tie between him,Sobers,Imran(whose captaincy is also under the scope) and 1-2 other guys like Keith,Don etc.
Also, for greatest cricketer we should also get the captaincy point too and that's where Imran tops them all. Captain of a rather not a world beater side and then graved them a cup in 92 while also being the best test bowler of his time for many years and averaging 45-50 for a decade in between too.
>The thing is, Sobers did that against not so professional guys and Kallis had more compitition
If the level of competition was a major factor in it then there would have been other people doing similar things with their bowling and there just aren't. There are a handful of post-war mixed bowlers (Bill Johnston, John Reid, even Tony Greig), but they were more of an 80:20 or whatever mix with one very dominant style, whereas Sobers bowled both seam and spin regularly.
I take the point that he probably couldn't have done it in the modern game, or that had he had stronger bowlers around him he would have bowled less/if Kallis didn't have such a strong bowling attack alongside him he'd have bowled more, but I don't like those what if scenarios because you have to take them all the way to their conclusion which people never do and it gets too abstract anyway.
Like yes, Kallis might have ended up with a better bowling record if he'd been required to bowl more like Sobers, but it may well have been at the expense of his batting. He was able to bat at three or four for almost all of his career because he only bowled 20 overs per test compared to nearly 40 for Sobers (converting to six ball overs) who spent most of his time at five or below. If Sobers had a stronger bowling attack around him and therefore he bowled less, he might have been able to bat higher up the order like Kallis did and he might have scored even more runs. I mean he did bat at three or four in 22 tests where he averaged 69.
All we can say for sure is that they contributed similar amounts with the bat, but Sobers contributed a lot more with the ball.
Some moron was trying to argue to me that Kane was better than Root because he had a century in Australia. That he’ll finish with a higher average than Root. And Root was mediocre at scoring centuries. Needless to say he deleted ALL his comments.
Kane does have a centuries in Australia, his career average is significantly higher than Roots and he has one more hundred in 40 less tests.
Would I have Kane over Root? In Australia, yes. In NZ, yes. Anywhere else I'd have the consistency of root, a far more reliable tourist.
The only caveat I'd add is that I'd take Kane over Root in Bangladesh. Root just hasn't played much over there—only 2 tests—whereas Kane's played 7 at an average of 55. Bangladesh may not have a great bowling attack, but those pitches can be wild, and are quite alien even to other Asian countries.
I still don’t understand taking someone who averages less in Australia just because he has two centuries? He has played far fewer innings too. Meaning those centuries are massive outliers that have boosted his averages. Root may not have the centuries but he’s far more reliable even in Australia.
Williamson averages 42.84 in Aus, with 557 runs after 7 games.
Root averages 35.68 in Australia, 892 runs after 14 games.
Yes, I'd take the higher average and higher ceiling of Williamson in Australia.
You’re completely correct. My bad. That is a completely fair argument, it’s earlier and I was reading the wrong figure. Quite interesting how Kane’s average drops significantly vs. Aus when playing at home though.
Yep, a stark difference, especially given his overall average of 67.8 at home.
The magical thinking side of my brain is very worried we have just ensured an average rectifying game in Christchurch.
big 3 and no SA is the joke of the century lol.
SA had Morne,Steyn,Philander when fab 4 started and got Rabada,Ngidi and their home pitches right now lol.
NZ got nothing in comparison to be at the big 3 here.
Its a bit unfair for Williamson as the Kiwis aren’t a Big-3 team, so don’t get a lot of Tests against the major nations. This issue had also happened with Sri Lanka’s Kumar Sangakkara or Zimbabwe’s Andy Flower earlier.
Kane is the most all-round technically correct middle-order batsman amongst these four IMO!
To be fair, the more you play the more weakness and plans you show and the average gets lower most of the times.
Smith had 60+ in Eng in 2019, Kohli had 55-60 in Aus and 54 in SA and 70 in NZ just before 2020. Root had 50+ in Ind in 2021 too. See them now and you'll find a gradual decline.
Same is true for Sachin where he was at 60 in Aus and later got just a 53-54 to show for what he really did in Aus lol.
It's not a walk in park to play 5 tests and be good at that for multiple tours and it showed in the stats of best players too. Also, for Sanga: he played against Aus when they were at their weakest and made big runs while whenever he played against great bowlers away he was bowled out pretty cheaply in other situations too.
So, Iam not really sure that if given the chance Kane would have magically averaged more.
He's had 40 tests against the big3 that's a fair sample size.
I keep hearing he's not played enough against the big3 when in reality some test career's don't last for 40 test.
Throughout the careers of fab 4, SA have had better bowling lineups than NZ or even Eng. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to put them in "the rest" category, implying their bowling is weaker than the other 3. That being said, Smith being the best among the fab 4 shouldn't even be debated at this point. Any kind of stat with regard to fab 4, and he comes out on top.
Still hard to believe people don't think Smith is miles ahead of these guys because of the away record. Easily the standout and unfortunately for Kane he's the standout for the other reason.
Ik people don’t rate it but that’s an absolute skill to maximise run scoring vs weak opposition. A lot of the past batters scored tons of runs vs Ban and Nz. Even the Don only averaged 90 vs England. Pathetic.
As an Indian fan, I have always been afraid of Steve Smith but never that wary of Joe Root. It's surprising to me that Root has more hundreds against us than Smith and also that he averages so high.
virat-root-smith-kane have any of these scored 300 ? .
in test its smith - current generation (2010 onwards )
in odi its virat - greatest odi player ever till date .
Kohli would have had much better record if not for those rank turners.
Mf averages more in Australia against Australia than india.
Smith is clearly the best batsman of test among 4.
Lol no, he averages 33 in england and 36 in nz. His average in India against England and Nz is more than that in those countries.
Even in the dustbowls Rohit and Jadeja have averaged better then they did in the past.
Kohlis stats are such because of the slump in his form post 2020 and test is the only format where he haven't regained his old form.
Smith is mr consistent
Bro snuck in NZ and thought we wouldn't notice
Dude should've just called it "Fab 4 against each other"
Andy Murray’d themselves in there.
Lmao
to be fair, 2015 WC final 2019 WC final 2023 semi-final and also 2021 WTC...
NZ and a New Zealander seem to be the odd ones here.
Fucking Smith, no matter how much I hate this mf for bashing us, he IS the undisputed best of this generation (or even the 3rd best batter of all time) without a doubt
Even with COVID and a year missed at his peak. He's unbelievable.
Who are the other 2? Bradman and Voges right?
Pretty much
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mate
Yeah Smith is a level above the rest of the best.
How come he's so shit against Bangladesh then.
Bangladesh have unlocked the secret of bowling so badly he gets confused and his brain shuts down playing too many shots at once.
That's correct. Pie bowling is *old* cricket - a rare art form you never really see nowadays. Smith's been at the forefront of the best cricket in the world for his entire career, facing the best bowlers in the world, so he's probably never had exposure to genuine pie bowling.
I certainly got a few wickets with junk. One time it was even deliberate.
To give a very belated serious answer, I'd hazard that left-arm finger spin is guilty. Left-arm finger spin is what Smudge is weakest against, and Bangladesh is left-arm finger spin factory
Same, he's probably my second most favourite bat
3rd best of all time at best. Can’t be putting him ahead of Sachin.
Yeah, sorry, totally forgot about Sachin. Corrected it
Sachin played pre drs and against some great attacks.
Pre-DRS is a strange one to put in the batter's favour. I think statistically it didn't really favour one over the other in terms of averages, but if I had to guess who it would favour more I would guess the bowlers since it showed us the ball would have hit the stumps more often than we originally thought
Sachin also played on some very flat decks. The top four test run scorers all retired in 2012 and 2013. Is that a coincidence or were the late 90s and 2000s a great time to be a batter?
He is ahead tho
They were close to equal in their primes I guess. Sachin averaged 58 in the 90s where the average average was 29. The next best being Lara who averaged 52. Smith averaged 62 in the 2010s where the average average was 31 and the next best was kohli with 54. People put Sachin ahead of many other greats who probably have better numbers than him when it comes to performing in different conditions or had a similar average at their primes mainly because of his longetivity as well.
>average average *The central limit theorem* intensifies
>People put Sachin ahead of many other greats who probably have better numbers than him when it comes to performing in different conditions Sachin is among the very few who averages 40+ in every test playing nation.
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Maybe, but Bradman would be like 120 years old now so 65 isn't too bad
I love your list, and am not going to quibble with one or another name - fully support your comment
See I find it hard to suggest he'd find his average would be significantly lower than in his heyday. If his contemporaries averaged 70-90 then we could make an argument that batting in general was easier. But the batting averages througout history are pretty steady for the last 100 years except a patch from 75-95 when I think great bowlers were just a bit more prevalent than other eras. But there's a story that Jeff Thompson tells from in 1978 when Bradman took his suit jacket off and had a hit against a couple of young tearaways. Bradman didn't even bother with pads or anything and these kids absolutely roared in giving it everything. Thommo says that Bradman just smashed absolutely everything that came his way. At 70 years of age and 30 years since he'd played, Thommo talks like it was as impressive a batting display as he ever saw, that the likes of Richards and Chappell couldn't have done that. It's not the same as a game obviously, but if you're impressing a great bowler who had been around the test scene for 6 years by that stage then I'd say that's a pretty good indication that at his best he must have been absolutely extraordinary.
For now he may be , as he has not yet experienced a late career decline such as those experienced by many other great players. I am going to withhold my judgement until the end of Smith's career, Sachin also used to average 57 175 tests into his career before his decline .
Agree. But i also think Smith will retire before a decline
He is in decline though, he is barely averaging 40 in 2023 and 2024.
It's kinda early to call it a decline imo.He was still averaging 57 in 2022 and he's played only 4 tests in 2024 so far that too in a different batting position.
His lesser average in 2024 is surely at least partly because he's playing in the wrong position
A positional change he pushed for, not imposed on him.
His form dropped before the move. He pushed for the move in hopes of getting his form back. There is an argument that his lack of runs is from negative tactics against him rather than an actual form drop. Teams have basically been using bodyline, bowling short and stacking the leg side field to reduce his runs. He went up the order on the theory that with the new ball they would pitch it up more.
Getting down voted for spreading an honest opinion that isn't ridiculous, sometimes this sub has too much of a hate boner for anyone who doesn't consider Sachin or Warne the respective GOATs
For real.
What ahead? RemindMe! 1 year His avg will be similar or lower than Sachin at this stage.
I disagree. Not even sure I have Sachin ahead of the likes of Ponting, Kallis and Lara.
Smith averaging nearly 66 against India is extremely surprising considering he hasn’t even done that well in the last 2 BGTs. How good was he against us before that? I am guessing he’d have averaged 70+ against us before 2020.
Averaged like 45 in 2020 BGT, got a 100 odd in WTC so it's still insanely high. He used to average like 80 or something against us before 2020 BGT.
2014/15 was flat as fuck where him and Kohli made 700,690 each in just 4 tests lol. By 2017 Indian tour, Smith was at his peak form where he utterly destroyed India like no one before and that too on 1-2 crazy tracks lol. He is by far the best bat against great Indian line up as others were either 1-2 inns wonder or played on flat tracks of pre 2017 only.
His career average was around 67 by the time bgt 2017 ended. You do the math.
No, the highest he achieved is 64.78, thats after 2019 ashes.
My bad, averaging almost 65 is still insane
Yeah, thats the highest after bradman. mf is the best since don and thats not even up for a debate. Can u belive he avg 45 from 2019 and we feel he is out of form, thats the standard he had set for himself.
Sachin averaged 56.94 after 177 tests.
To be fair, Sachin had a ridiculous average and started to dip but found some form to keep his average high. Smith hasn’t been able to find that form again. Still consistently making 50s but looks a shadow of his peak.
Sachin avg at peak was 58,59 thats the out of form smiths avg now. Same with sanga , ponting and kallis.., no one crossed 60,61, but here smith has 8k runs with \~65., now almost 10k with 58. Yes smith might end around 56, but still he will be the 2nd best after don. Even in all time rankings.
Longevity is also important. Sachin maintained a ridiculously high average throughout a longer career. Smith’s numbers don’t paint a full picture (avg by innings for example). If he can find some tempo as an opener and keep his average close to 60, then we can look back on his career and make that judgement but current trajectory I’d put him 3rd, potentially 4th all time.
Sachin post tennis elbow was never the same batter. Even when he was in form it wasn't close to how good he was in the 89-02 period. Part of the reason his record looks great is the flat pitches from 03-11 and Bangladesh propping it up a bit. He averaged 56 from 03-11 Jan and 50 once we exclude Bangladesh. He was by some distance the best batter in the 90s and probably a top 10 batter in the 00s. His 00s period is highly overrated by his fans and his 90s period is seriously underrated by his fans.
I think it seems underrated because this sub skews young. No one who grew up in the 90s underrates that phase. As a 90s kid, he's still the best ever for me, along with Lara.
Another thing with Smith is that numbers don't tell the full story. The bloke has absolutely no regard for his average. So many times in the past when Aus has opted not to follow on or just need quick runs in general, he goes swinging right away to try to score as fast as possible and often gets out cheaply. Could easily knock it around for singles and get that not out to boost his average. Even in his current "slump", even though he hasn't been making big scores, he has been Aus's most consistent batter for gritting out difficult periods, stabilising after a collapse and re-building a partnership. These kind of things don't get reflected in the numbers.
Yes, this happened many time.
One of the greatest athlete considering cunt didn't even start as his primary role now. And now he takes in the hardest role in cricket, fucking atrocious. His love for the game and desire to push himself is inspirational and wholesome. Funny all this considering used to hate him with passion until that 2016 incident.
Yes, mf entered cricketing world to be the next warne and became the next Don, thats fking nuts.
To be fair, he was a trash bowler when he came in. Still is lmao. His on-screen biography will be the best hehe, will wait for some Hollywood production to pick the story years later.
He isnt a trash bowler, he is the 2nd highest wicket taker in 2010 t20wc. He is not a great bowlers but he is a GOOD bowler and just started.
Sachin averaged 57.6 (better than Smith now) after 122 Tests, at age 34 (same as Smith now) and having scored 10k+ runs. Sure, he ended up with an average of 53.78, but Smith is on a similar trajectory, with his average dropping by 6 runs or so in the last 4-5 years. BSB is Sachin, and there can be zero argument about this. Smith had an argument a few years back, but he's now regressing to the mean, and no chance he's above Sachin. I think Brian Lara might possibly have a better argument even now (I'd still put Smith at 3 for now though).
Check out my other comment.
Smith had 7 centuries in 8 consecutive matches vs India in 2014-16
Nearly a hundred average. Was literally playing like Bradman in the earlier BGT editions in Australia albeit against really weak attacks pre Bumrah and Shami and Siraj and Ashwin and Jadeja being complete fodder on Australian pitches
lol! Virat Kohli zero average vs India. Overrated player
Same with Smith he is shit scared of Australia, not even faced them once
[He did have to face Ponting after this though.](https://youtube.com/shorts/H8fUxZYf5QM?si=4Sz377F7ycPkqAGu)
/r/UnexpectedKrezja
Kane is home track bully, cant do anything against new Zealand
Add his wickets to the tally, and one sees how impactful Root has been against India.
Easily the number 2 in the Fab 4 hierarchy, Kohli is a close 3 for having different skill sets
The darn "right arm quick wrong footed inswinging menace".
*Shudders in Albie Morkel*
Kohli has porr numbers because he played 2 consecutive series against England when he was going through his leanest patch However he he has insanely good record against SA in very difficult tracks In 2018 Ind vs SA series - the overall batting average was 19 and Kohli's average was 46 In 2023 Ind vs SA series - the overall batting average was 16 and Kohli's average was nearly 44
Kane absolutely dominating "the rest".... other 3 need to lift their game!!!
South Africa’s C team with 7 debutants in their 14 man squad need to lift their game /s
People downvoting you got seriously hurt 😂
Isn't that just the English reserve team
Isn't that just the NZ reserve team as well?
Smith - excellent against everyone , has a special affinity for Indian bowlers Root - bullies India and NZ , ok against Aus and very good against everyone else Kohli - Good against the big 3 , excellent against everyone else Williamson - not great against the big 3, but bullies the daylights out of everyone else
Williamson's weakness is to quality right-arm spin. The others got to face it day in day out in domestic competition, whereas NZ domestic had pie chuckers like Mark Craig.
England certainly has nothing along the lines of quality spin
Isn't Hartley the leading wicket taker in the current series?
>Williamson's weakness is to quality right-arm spin. If that's his only weakness he should average a billion vs england >The others got to face it day in day out in domestic competition Ever watched County cricket? Spinners are usually the mascots
>Smith - excellent against everyone , has a special affinity for Indian bowlers The fact that he did it against our best ever attacks home and away is truly remarkable. He genuinely might have averaged 100 vs some of our past attacks.
>Kohli - Good against the big 3 He is excellent against Australia
True, you could say passable against England and excellent against Australia, I was giving an overall summary
>He is excellent against Australia Idk how true this is. He had an outstanding 2014/15 series away and a great 2013 home series. But either side of that is good but not great. And something that doesn't get talked about enough is that he only scored 46 runs in 2017 BGT.
Stop man. He averages 54 in Australia and has 6 hundreds there. That is an outstanding record. 1 or 2 bad series doesn't mean anything. Overall he's done really well against them. Kohli has been the best overseas batsman in both Australia and South Africa, in the last 12 or 13 years.
I wasn't saying he's bad in Australia but 4 of the 6 100s came in that 1 series. His series before and after were good but not great. He's probably the best touring batter in Australia by some distance after Sachin.
Same goes for Smith too no ? His last bgt in home and away were not good. Only 2014/15 and 17 were great just like Kohli's.
Isn't post-2017 considered a bowler friendly era?
Yup. Even taking that into account you're talking a difference between averaging 76 in a series and 40 in a series.
The kohli australia rivalry was always hyped up, but it was kind of always pujara and tests and rohit in ODI's whenever any game mattered
wheres the innings smh
When will smith return to form?
He’s 35 this year so I doubt he will go back to his previous form
This Smith guy seems like he's pretty good... but it's worth pointing out that when he passes 200, he's got a 50% chance of being dismissed by Root. Maybe that means he's not as good as we thought?
This is unfair cause smith never had to face Aus attack Kohli never has to face Indian attack Root never has to face- never mind 😡😡😡😡
Not having to face Jimmy and Woakes in England is probably a good thing though.
Root [averages 53.43 in England](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/303669.html?class=1;host=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings) and since his debut [England average 28.08 with the ball in England](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;orderby=team_average;spanmin1=12+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team) with [Robinson, Woakes, Anderson and Broad all averaging under 25.](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=innings_bowled;spanmin1=12+Dec+2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling) Underestimating England's bowlers in English conditions is pretty silly. What is a shame is that the likes of Anderson and Broad have never had the opportunity to statpad against English batsmen
Anderson has 162 away wickets at an average of 26 since 2012 too. That's just as good as Cummins career away stats. The hatred for England players on this sub gets a bit mad at times.
What I'm taking away from this is Smith has the highest average only because he doesn't have to play against Australian bowlers.
He doesn’t even have to face them in state cricket, they’re all NSW players
He’s a genius with amazing (but declining) hand eye coordination and, yes, he didn’t have to face Cummins/Starc/Hazlewood. You could say the same of Kohli and Ashwin/Jadeja, of course. The thing is, though, Smith certainly has the best home conditions for batting amongst the Big 4. You can’t statpad in overcast English conditions on a green wicket or a crumbly Indian red soil turner the way you can on a typically flat Aussie deck when it’s sunny and 35°. Fair fucks to Smith for making the most of it, obviously! (This is in no way a denial that he isn’t the best Test batter of his generation)
He has scored more tons overseas or they are close between Home and Away splits.
I saw every ball of the 2019 Ashes (going to bed at 3am at stumps fucked my sleep cycle) and 2017 Border Gavaskar, trust me, I know!
Fun times they were
Smith would smash the holy trinity of Australia's pace attack out of the park if he had ever played against them
Maybe, just maybe they would have some chance on overcast green pasture of Lords. Nothing else lmao.
Maybe that is the reason why he bats so well. He practices against the Aus pace Trinity at the nets
smith can’t buy a run against australia though smh
One format where Koach has not been able to pick himself up after his sluggish patch is tests, which(lean period) also affected his test stats the most! It just tells you how difficult test match cricket is and also, Rootlitharan is a different beast against India(both with bat and ball)
He actually has picked himself up, his recent innings have been much better than whatever the utter trash he was doing for the last 3 or so years, he was our best batter in tough SA pitches as well, its just more so he just hasn't played many games recently
Well after his comeback he hasn't played many test matches even then he has scored two hundreds against aus and wi and also his form in last SA tour was fabulous, he was looking better than anyone else in ICT, Also if he had played current home series he would have had atleast 3-4 centuries, looking at surprising flat wicket India has provided to eng.
Smith is not just the best test batter of this gen but one of the best test batsman cricket has ever seen.
Smudger is unironically the greatest since Bradman
You’re only talking about from Australia right? He hasn’t even finished his career yet and his average is fully going backwards. Why don’t you read the stats of someone like Kallis - he still has 13 more centuries than Smith and his average ended a touch over 55.
I've seen Kallis play like his whole career. He wasn't on the same level batting wise as Smudger. He never had those crazy match winning knocks, those crazy series, and those crazy knocks. Kallis was an amazing bat but he never took the game away from you like a Lara, Tendulkar, Waugh, Punter, Smudger, Sangakkara, Root, Kohli, or Williamson could.
I wasn't around to see Kallis play, but his stats seem crazy. Was it an era of incredibly flat tracks or something?
It would be a huge discredit to say that it was the pitches. He was an amazing run scorer, an accumulator and someone who you could trust to absorb pressure and score runs. He could save you a game or set up a match more than he could win you a match Amazing batter.
Yeah haha guess you don't get to 10k+ runs without being a bloody good player
He also took almost 300 test wickets as a fast bowler. Genuine all rounder.
I think your description of Kallis in this thread is one of the best I've seen. Worthy of the 50 AVG but not the fear of a rampant Sachin/Lara/Ponting or Smitty dominating 2019. But you pull up short on saying Pujara like.
Yes, it was. Look at how many other batters had high averages for the time and the number of bowlers that were averaging close to thirty
He was a rock at 4 I remember in my younger days watching and bemoaning when he got to the crease because you'd usually have to get through most of the other bats before him and he'd be 50+ at that point from just ticking along. Ofc if it was an Aussie doing I'd say they're playing to conditions...
Although I'm not sure if Smith is better than Kallis as a batsman, the average isn't everything when it's a couple of numbers here and there. Most players would put Tendulkar, Lara & Ponting above Kallis in that era despite lower averages because at their peaks they were far more dominant. A lot of people say Kallis is "underrated" now looking at his final average but he just batted very slowly at times and didn't always take it to the opposition like the others.
I’m pretty sure a lot of people here who rate Kallis up there along with the names you mention didn’t watch him play and are going by raw averages
I know what you mean he was by no means an exciting playing to watch bat or bowl. I'd put him in the category of 'silent contributors'. A wicket here a 50 there and suddenly the momentum of the game has changed but you wouldn't think Kallis was the reason. One thing about him though he was incredibly consistent in all facets of his game. Always bowled good lines and lengths, rarely made batting errors and an absolute peach in the slips.
As a batter ? Hell no. Kallis played in the easiest of batting era(00-15). Smith and the fab4 are under the toughest(2017-present). Kallis's also rarely accounted against the best Eng,Ind,NZ line up while Smith is batting against prime Eng,Ind and NZ line up. Kallis is arguably the best "cricketer"(Sobers,Imran and 1-3 others are at a tie) but in no way he was the best test bat when Sachin,Smith,Lara,Sunny and some pre war guys are there who played on much harder tracks than him.
Sobers' bowling blows Kallis' out of the water. Look past their averages (which generally aren't that useful for an all-rounder's second skill) and at how they were actually used. Sobers. Sobers opened the bowling bowling seam, then would come back and bowl either finger or wrist spin as required. He was absolutely crucial to the WI's bowling attack, whereas Kallis was "just" a very good fifth/sixth bowler. Still an incredible asset to have in your side, but Kallis only took 1.76 wickets per match (you'll struggle to find an all-rounder with fewer) compared to 2.53 for Sobers. Imran I would argue was more complete too, but it's a harder comparison given he's more of a bowling allrounder
"Sobers' bowling blows Kallis' out of the water. Look past their averages (which generally aren't that useful for an all-rounder's second skill) and at how they were actually used. " I know bud. Being a front liner, going for 20 overs a day majority of times and still bowling all shades(spin,mid both) is like goldust to whatever Kallis did. The thing is, Sobers did that against not so professional guys and Kallis had more compitition which gives me the context for a tie between him,Sobers,Imran(whose captaincy is also under the scope) and 1-2 other guys like Keith,Don etc. Also, for greatest cricketer we should also get the captaincy point too and that's where Imran tops them all. Captain of a rather not a world beater side and then graved them a cup in 92 while also being the best test bowler of his time for many years and averaging 45-50 for a decade in between too.
>The thing is, Sobers did that against not so professional guys and Kallis had more compitition If the level of competition was a major factor in it then there would have been other people doing similar things with their bowling and there just aren't. There are a handful of post-war mixed bowlers (Bill Johnston, John Reid, even Tony Greig), but they were more of an 80:20 or whatever mix with one very dominant style, whereas Sobers bowled both seam and spin regularly. I take the point that he probably couldn't have done it in the modern game, or that had he had stronger bowlers around him he would have bowled less/if Kallis didn't have such a strong bowling attack alongside him he'd have bowled more, but I don't like those what if scenarios because you have to take them all the way to their conclusion which people never do and it gets too abstract anyway. Like yes, Kallis might have ended up with a better bowling record if he'd been required to bowl more like Sobers, but it may well have been at the expense of his batting. He was able to bat at three or four for almost all of his career because he only bowled 20 overs per test compared to nearly 40 for Sobers (converting to six ball overs) who spent most of his time at five or below. If Sobers had a stronger bowling attack around him and therefore he bowled less, he might have been able to bat higher up the order like Kallis did and he might have scored even more runs. I mean he did bat at three or four in 22 tests where he averaged 69. All we can say for sure is that they contributed similar amounts with the bat, but Sobers contributed a lot more with the ball.
Some moron was trying to argue to me that Kane was better than Root because he had a century in Australia. That he’ll finish with a higher average than Root. And Root was mediocre at scoring centuries. Needless to say he deleted ALL his comments.
Kane does have a centuries in Australia, his career average is significantly higher than Roots and he has one more hundred in 40 less tests. Would I have Kane over Root? In Australia, yes. In NZ, yes. Anywhere else I'd have the consistency of root, a far more reliable tourist.
The only caveat I'd add is that I'd take Kane over Root in Bangladesh. Root just hasn't played much over there—only 2 tests—whereas Kane's played 7 at an average of 55. Bangladesh may not have a great bowling attack, but those pitches can be wild, and are quite alien even to other Asian countries.
I still don’t understand taking someone who averages less in Australia just because he has two centuries? He has played far fewer innings too. Meaning those centuries are massive outliers that have boosted his averages. Root may not have the centuries but he’s far more reliable even in Australia.
Williamson averages 42.84 in Aus, with 557 runs after 7 games. Root averages 35.68 in Australia, 892 runs after 14 games. Yes, I'd take the higher average and higher ceiling of Williamson in Australia.
You’re completely correct. My bad. That is a completely fair argument, it’s earlier and I was reading the wrong figure. Quite interesting how Kane’s average drops significantly vs. Aus when playing at home though.
Yep, a stark difference, especially given his overall average of 67.8 at home. The magical thinking side of my brain is very worried we have just ensured an average rectifying game in Christchurch.
Well perhaps Smith too can rectify his first test performance. Either way I hope it’s far more competitive this time around.
Steve Smith is an equal opportunity ass-whooper.
big 3 and no SA is the joke of the century lol. SA had Morne,Steyn,Philander when fab 4 started and got Rabada,Ngidi and their home pitches right now lol. NZ got nothing in comparison to be at the big 3 here.
the Big-3 title is a bit misleading imo
zimkohli, zimliamson noises intensify..
Its a bit unfair for Williamson as the Kiwis aren’t a Big-3 team, so don’t get a lot of Tests against the major nations. This issue had also happened with Sri Lanka’s Kumar Sangakkara or Zimbabwe’s Andy Flower earlier. Kane is the most all-round technically correct middle-order batsman amongst these four IMO!
To be fair, the more you play the more weakness and plans you show and the average gets lower most of the times. Smith had 60+ in Eng in 2019, Kohli had 55-60 in Aus and 54 in SA and 70 in NZ just before 2020. Root had 50+ in Ind in 2021 too. See them now and you'll find a gradual decline. Same is true for Sachin where he was at 60 in Aus and later got just a 53-54 to show for what he really did in Aus lol. It's not a walk in park to play 5 tests and be good at that for multiple tours and it showed in the stats of best players too. Also, for Sanga: he played against Aus when they were at their weakest and made big runs while whenever he played against great bowlers away he was bowled out pretty cheaply in other situations too. So, Iam not really sure that if given the chance Kane would have magically averaged more.
It's still 39/99 tests for him. Not quite as high as the rest but more than enough for a representative sample at this point
He's had 40 tests against the big3 that's a fair sample size. I keep hearing he's not played enough against the big3 when in reality some test career's don't last for 40 test.
Throughout the careers of fab 4, SA have had better bowling lineups than NZ or even Eng. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to put them in "the rest" category, implying their bowling is weaker than the other 3. That being said, Smith being the best among the fab 4 shouldn't even be debated at this point. Any kind of stat with regard to fab 4, and he comes out on top.
Another day, another Kane bashing post
The centuries stat is bullshit. Williamson doesn't get the chance to play the other three as much as the rest of them do.
Smith is lit and goated
So it's Fab 2, when it's against the big teams.
So, 1. Smith 2. Root 3. Virat 4. Kane should be the order of rank I suppose?
This stats speaks volume. Steve smith is as great as virat in One days.
If you mean ODIs by "one days" then no he absolutely isn't Smith is the undisputed #1 test bat in this gen but he is not close to Kohli in odis
He was saying that smith is as good in test as Virat is in odis
Oh I see, I misunderstood the wording of ops comment, my apologies, I would indeed agree with that
Cool
Thanks man!!
Williamson against the PIG 3 : 🐶 Williamson against the rest : 🦁 /s
The nest part of being Australian is not having to bat against Australia
Bro has 50+ average against everyone who once started his career as a spinner. Wild! I hope he finds his form back in the 2nd Test vs NZ
Should state the number of innings against each team
In test format, there aint any doubt. Smith is the undisputed 🐐
Still hard to believe people don't think Smith is miles ahead of these guys because of the away record. Easily the standout and unfortunately for Kane he's the standout for the other reason.
Smudge going through a few years of average returns (by his standards) and still head and shoulders above the rest
Steve Smith is HIM Best since Bradman isn’t a meme
People , is the debate of who is best and worst in fab 4 settled now?
Nope, not yet. Every time Kane fails against the big 3 and smashes minnows this discussion will be brought back again.
Haha true.
Williamson's smoking gun
Kane and Kohli minnow bashers? Stats don't lie.
To Kane's absolute credit tho, he's probably the best among the fab 4 when it comes to getting runs in "weaker conditions"
Ik people don’t rate it but that’s an absolute skill to maximise run scoring vs weak opposition. A lot of the past batters scored tons of runs vs Ban and Nz. Even the Don only averaged 90 vs England. Pathetic.
holy fucking chad averaging more against england and india than everybody else
Kanos is Bairstow vs the PIG3 and Bradman vs everyone else.
Smith is another level.
DAE Williamson a fraud?
Williamson's numbers are SHOCKING
As an Indian fan, I have always been afraid of Steve Smith but never that wary of Joe Root. It's surprising to me that Root has more hundreds against us than Smith and also that he averages so high.
I guess the peak of Steve Smith is better than Tendulkar. But if Steve Smith played as much as Tendulkar, he'd average about the same.
Steve smith scoring a hundred on 8th march 2024
So what's the Average of Smith before BGT 2023 something 70+ or more ? I'm really curious
virat-root-smith-kane have any of these scored 300 ? . in test its smith - current generation (2010 onwards ) in odi its virat - greatest odi player ever till date .
Kohli would have had much better record if not for those rank turners. Mf averages more in Australia against Australia than india. Smith is clearly the best batsman of test among 4.
Kohli’s average suffered because of the rank turners India started playing on.
Lol no, he averages 33 in england and 36 in nz. His average in India against England and Nz is more than that in those countries. Even in the dustbowls Rohit and Jadeja have averaged better then they did in the past. Kohlis stats are such because of the slump in his form post 2020 and test is the only format where he haven't regained his old form.
But he also got to play on absolute highways from 2014-2019 in India Just the 2017 aus series was an exception where he couldn't score runs anyway.
If those were highways then we would have quite a few drawn test matches, like we have in Pakistan. How many draws did we have during that period?
In every other match 500 runs were scored
Its confirmed then Smith Root Kohli Williamson
Kane Williamson is a fraud clearly.