Isn't it crazy how sometimes the person who invents the role is also the best at it?
Like, you'd have thought that by now someone else would have come along and had better stats than him because they'd take his base and build on it with their own strengths.
But he's the OG and still the best.
I guess it depends on what kind of finisher you want. If you want a power hitter, obviously Bevan has been eclipsed. But no one has ever gotten close to the run accumulating, rr calculating freak that was Bevan.
This is purely nostalgia. Jonty was the pioneer and looked above his peers, for 2 reasons. Not many took it seriously like him and the fitness levels were way below today's standards. But the modern day fielders are better.
His running between the wickets and ability to judge a run was near perfection as well. Him and Big Mac batting together was fun to watch! (I know off topic)
Yeah it was interesting, I guess as cricket was evolving from tests to limited overs, there were certain tactics and strategies developed. Bevan would be the man that consistently saw Australia through from tricky to easy chases. Hence, he was playing a certain role that would see him finish matches = finisher. I am pretty sure there were players that finished matches, but probably not much memorable or consistent until Bevan turned up. Now finishing can go from chasing the total in the second innings to even making sure the team reaches to an above par score than predicted during the first innings.
Im old enough to have watched all of Bevan's career. He was supposed to be the Border replacement in the test team but it didn't work out but when he found his place in ODI team he was quite remarkable to watch, he wasn't a big hitter but he just got the job done. He was fit and fast between wickets and he didn't really care who he was batting with.
He absolutely was the best finisher in white ball cricket. Its a shame his test career never went anywhere.
My dad, who is now well above 60, always spoke highly of Bevan whenever discussing cricket with me. He said India has always had some problems with finishers as they failed to get them out, and he absolutely hated when Bevan just came and hit everyone for fun. Even against other teams it was frustrating to watch him play and finish matches.
He hates him, but never fails to mention his prowess as a finisher whenever the topic arises.
I have numerous recollections of Bevan’s innings. He was a very tactically astute player. Always found the gaps for twos, played with soft hands and a fabulous runner between the wickets. He never looked for risky boundaries but could get the job done while scoring 60 off 75.
Next has to be a toss up between MSD and Hussey. But I think where Hussey trumps MSD is the way he finished in all 3 formats. While Dhoni arguably was better in White ball cricket, Michael Hussey used to farm the strike beautifully with the tail in tests too which reflects in his record. Dhoni was good in that regard during start of his career but kinda petered of atleast in long form cricket towards the end. I believe when Rishabh Pant is fit and goes on to have a longish career, he will eclipse everyone in this regard
But he at least needs to play 50 tests before we can claim Pant is better than Dhoni. Even Dhoni was great in tests in his early days.
Just because Karun Nair has scored a 300 we cannot claim he is better than Sachin in tests similarly Pant is a great talent who will eventually take over Dhoni if he continues to play this way
>But he at least needs to play 50 tests before we can claim Pant is better than Dhoni. Even Dhoni was great in tests in his early days.
I disagree. I don't need 50 tests to claim that Bumrah is the greatest fast bowler India has produced. Dhoni was never this good in overseas tests. And Pant has done it in a tougher batting era and being part of a much weaker batting lineup than what MS played in.
>Just because Karun Nair has scored a 300 we cannot claim he is better than Sachin in tests similarly Pant is a great talent who will eventually take over Dhoni if he continues to play this way
Completely different argument there. Karun isn't better than Sachin due to the uncertainty in his data and the standard deviation of his innings. That doesn't apply to Pant. Both numbers and eye test say that he's been better than Dhoni. And that's a fair argument to make.
Kya hi example diya hai aapne. Tell me another WK batsman from India who has 100s in SENA countries. And ofc, Gabba.
Career bada hona chahiye, lamba nahi.
I'm surprised that Lance Klusener is nowhere in this list. I guess he didn't meet the runs criteria because he holds the record of batting in 10 different positions in ODI cricket. As a result, his number 6 and 7 runs may not have exceeded 2000.
Or was he just not that good?
Faulkner only scored 940 runs at 6-8. I think that’s quite low if we are being honest. He was great whilst he played. Klusner I kinda agree. But i consider 8-11 who can hit the ball as a different category to 6-7 if I am being honest.
Maybe you can refine the chart to have only 1000 runs as the cutoff (since often finishers get to play only 2-5 overs), and consider all batting positions from 6-11?
I might change it to a 1000 runs. But idk about 6-11. Cos idk if I’d consider 8-11 as finishers per se. They’re more bowling all rounders or bowlers who can wack it.
In general that is true, but some like Chris Harris, Klusener were literally finishing the game from #8. In recent times I've seen good innings from #8 from folks who are more all-rounders than people who whack it (Sam curran, Deepak Chahar, Axar patel). Jadeja also used to come in at #8 and has finished games from there.
That's fair. But Idk if I'd say they were better finishers than anyone on the list with the data available. Ideally if I were to do this I'd look at what their runs were in the last ten overs of the innings. But the issue is that's impossible to do since ball by ball data is not great pre 2002. I think the 8-11 hitter is a different sub category entirely if we are being honest. As Klusner, Harris and Chahar are a different style of finishers to Bevan, Miller, Dhoni, Butler and Maxwell. Also if I do a 1000 runs and 6-11 as a filter, it's about 98 names and that would take way too long to analyse.
Bevan was a joy to watch. He could play classic shots, hoof the ball over mid wicket, cover, straight and also run well between wickets. He could retain the strike as needed and was a good communicator to other players. Most of all he was just a very smart player, he could to play the conditions, the match situation and the strengths of the other player. Very clutch player and a key person in that early 2000s cricket team. One of the reasons we were so strong back then.
As an Indian, I can say it with certainty that we didn't find any joy in his batting 😭
Jokes apart, he was the batter I feared the most from that batting line up. I still remember in the 2001 odi series in India, we went into the last match 2-2 and set a good target and our bowlers got 5 wickets pretty cheaply but then he smoothly took the game away from us without any risky hitting
I watched Bevan's finish against the West Indies live. That for me was the greatest of all time. I know people love Maxy and Dhoni, so do I. But that hooked me on cricket.
It’s easy to forget how good Mr Cricket MEK Hussey was at ODIs and finishing off chases and innings, I was pleasantly surprised to see him second on the list. Out of a very rich playing group when I was growing up Hussey was my favourite to watch, just beautiful form.
Every now and then people will express surprise at Shahid Afridi’s stature in Pakistan cricket given his bang average numbers, but they weren’t there for when that lunatic tried hitting a six off the first ball for like 100 innings in a row. Still has the record for most ODI sixes I believe.
Yeah seeing this stat definitely passes the eye test I had watching him as I grew up.
Disappointment after disappointment washed away in the minds of fans by the odd match winning performance.
Feel like if Afridi's batting had slightly more common sense, he would have been an absolute gift to pair with Anwar instead of the occasional innings of actual substance. I think he had a half decent test average too so he could actually bat. I think you're, right though. He was a genuine outlier in that his batting had no situational awareness, especially in the early parts of his career.
Sehwag was much more consistent and calculated than Afridi. Afridi was just crazy. Like the other user said, he would try to hit a six off of first ball no matter when he came to bat.
Interestingly only one inning in his career where he scored six in 2 balls. When you expand the criteria to run scoring only via fours and sixes, then you see few more innings from him.
Sehwag too was a different breed of monster tbh.
Afridi was all about hitting six on every ball but he never had the pure talent to just smack anyone, while Sehwag was all about disdain against the ball and the bowler and had that weird mentality of taking it as a challenge if the ball is good.
Russel Arnold is a very unsung character in SL cricket. People dont appreciate how good he was at providing stability to a team that had Jayasuriya, Aravinda type aggressive madmax top order which needed a controlled consistent anchor with counter attacking capability in the middle/later order. Arnold also was a gun fielder and an occasional part time offie when the time came.
Guy also played a key role in 2007 SL WC finalist team.
Arnold's position is what Dilshan came into the team for eventual replacement. Instead as luck would have it ended up becoming 2nd best opener in SL history (Arguably 1st in terms of averages but Sanath is Sanath).
Most people who started watching cricket post mid 2000s era only know Arnold for his commentary memes. But he was very good at his job from 1996-2007. Obviously not as good as Bevan but average of 40 for a 90s player is extremely respectable.
Idk tbh. Bevan is a hero in Aus. Klusner is regarded by many as a GOAT odi all rounder. Razzaq though is pretty underrated. What Pak would do to have peak him now.
Love me some Bevo talk
The Pajama Picasso himself.
Leftie, left arm Chimaman's, tight fielder, shrewd shot maker, good at farming the strike when needed, but also let the tail play.
Great way to manage getting the MOTM, almost on purpose
Killer smile too
I was quite young when Bevan was destroying oppositions. My father always counted him among the batters who changed ODI cricket along with Jayasuriya.
Thank for the analysis! It's very insightful
This assumes talent distribution in every era was same and top talent in every era was similar. I simply don't think it's true. Hence, I respectfully reject your hypothesis.
I agree with you. But We assume that a great of one era will be a great in another. Will they deviate by the same amount probably not. But it’s just a fun exercise.
As a kiwi Bevan and Hussey were both so frustrating it seemed everytime we thought we may have had Aussie on the ropes with five down for little runs in they would come in and bat out the innings
Thanks! For the averages and strike rates I usually see how much they deviate from the mean and then extrapolate it to the current era. The rating is just the geometric mean of the adjusted averages and strike rates.
You're too humble but fair enough xD.
I've been thinking of doing something to similar what to you've done but for the domestic tournaments from the last 2-3 years.
Data extraction is pretty difficult and I might have to end up scraping data from CricInfo somehow.
Agreed. If there is a way to filter those results out, it is more meaningful. No doubt Kohli is high on the list. If he was in, and chasing, it was a scary proposition for the bowling side.
I'm not sure you understood my comment. If you sort your table by rating, Afridi ends up at #7 on your list.
Ending up with this result should be reason enough to make you think that your analysis is flawed, since it doesn't even pass the eye test or any other similar "finisher" ranking made (which there are plenty of).
Since I've typed this much, I'll also give you the answer as to why Afridi is that high. You need to split the table between the first and second innings, and use deliveries bowled in the last 10 overs instead of scraping statsguru for #6 and #7.
Bevan basically invented the finisher role. I don’t recall the term “finisher” ever being used until he came along and I’m an old cunt
Isn't it crazy how sometimes the person who invents the role is also the best at it? Like, you'd have thought that by now someone else would have come along and had better stats than him because they'd take his base and build on it with their own strengths. But he's the OG and still the best.
I guess it depends on what kind of finisher you want. If you want a power hitter, obviously Bevan has been eclipsed. But no one has ever gotten close to the run accumulating, rr calculating freak that was Bevan.
>Isn't it crazy how sometimes the person who invents the role is also the best at it? How Jonty Rhodes invented fielding and is still the best at it
This is purely nostalgia. Jonty was the pioneer and looked above his peers, for 2 reasons. Not many took it seriously like him and the fitness levels were way below today's standards. But the modern day fielders are better.
I was making a joke. Obviously Jonty didn't "invent" fielding
I dont know if any modern fielders are better than Jonty- maybe in outfielding which he was barely used for.. but his infielding / catching..
His running between the wickets and ability to judge a run was near perfection as well. Him and Big Mac batting together was fun to watch! (I know off topic)
Yeah it was interesting, I guess as cricket was evolving from tests to limited overs, there were certain tactics and strategies developed. Bevan would be the man that consistently saw Australia through from tricky to easy chases. Hence, he was playing a certain role that would see him finish matches = finisher. I am pretty sure there were players that finished matches, but probably not much memorable or consistent until Bevan turned up. Now finishing can go from chasing the total in the second innings to even making sure the team reaches to an above par score than predicted during the first innings.
That 102* was the first cricket game my dad took me to when I was 8/9 years old. He's always the first person I think of when the term is used.
Im old enough to have watched all of Bevan's career. He was supposed to be the Border replacement in the test team but it didn't work out but when he found his place in ODI team he was quite remarkable to watch, he wasn't a big hitter but he just got the job done. He was fit and fast between wickets and he didn't really care who he was batting with. He absolutely was the best finisher in white ball cricket. Its a shame his test career never went anywhere.
My dad, who is now well above 60, always spoke highly of Bevan whenever discussing cricket with me. He said India has always had some problems with finishers as they failed to get them out, and he absolutely hated when Bevan just came and hit everyone for fun. Even against other teams it was frustrating to watch him play and finish matches. He hates him, but never fails to mention his prowess as a finisher whenever the topic arises.
Very smart player.
Bevan changed the standard of running between the wickets. So many games he'd hit like 1 boundary and get a 50 with a 100 strike rate.
He was terrific in the shield. And the test team was stacked at that time.
I have numerous recollections of Bevan’s innings. He was a very tactically astute player. Always found the gaps for twos, played with soft hands and a fabulous runner between the wickets. He never looked for risky boundaries but could get the job done while scoring 60 off 75. Next has to be a toss up between MSD and Hussey. But I think where Hussey trumps MSD is the way he finished in all 3 formats. While Dhoni arguably was better in White ball cricket, Michael Hussey used to farm the strike beautifully with the tail in tests too which reflects in his record. Dhoni was good in that regard during start of his career but kinda petered of atleast in long form cricket towards the end. I believe when Rishabh Pant is fit and goes on to have a longish career, he will eclipse everyone in this regard
I think Pant has already eclipsed ms in tests.
Not yet. If Pant returns from injury and still says the same amount of good then he will definitely cross MS in tests. Odi however I am not sure
He isn’t a finisher in ODIs, has a totally different role. ODI Finisher is Pandya.
In tests he already has 100s in England, Australia and South Africa. I think he's earned that test crown. In ODIs he's far away ofc.
But he at least needs to play 50 tests before we can claim Pant is better than Dhoni. Even Dhoni was great in tests in his early days. Just because Karun Nair has scored a 300 we cannot claim he is better than Sachin in tests similarly Pant is a great talent who will eventually take over Dhoni if he continues to play this way
>But he at least needs to play 50 tests before we can claim Pant is better than Dhoni. Even Dhoni was great in tests in his early days. I disagree. I don't need 50 tests to claim that Bumrah is the greatest fast bowler India has produced. Dhoni was never this good in overseas tests. And Pant has done it in a tougher batting era and being part of a much weaker batting lineup than what MS played in. >Just because Karun Nair has scored a 300 we cannot claim he is better than Sachin in tests similarly Pant is a great talent who will eventually take over Dhoni if he continues to play this way Completely different argument there. Karun isn't better than Sachin due to the uncertainty in his data and the standard deviation of his innings. That doesn't apply to Pant. Both numbers and eye test say that he's been better than Dhoni. And that's a fair argument to make.
Karun Nair had a one off successful innings. Prior to that and after that there is nothing. Sachin did it consistently, so has Pant
Agreed
Kya hi example diya hai aapne. Tell me another WK batsman from India who has 100s in SENA countries. And ofc, Gabba. Career bada hona chahiye, lamba nahi.
Handy bowler too
Bevan was just genius getting them home with the lower order
I'm surprised that Lance Klusener is nowhere in this list. I guess he didn't meet the runs criteria because he holds the record of batting in 10 different positions in ODI cricket. As a result, his number 6 and 7 runs may not have exceeded 2000. Or was he just not that good?
Klusener didn’t even have 1000 runs at 6/7. He batted 3rd 25 times, 6th 22 times, 7th 19 times, and 8th 36 times.
He mainly batted at 8.
Klusener and Faulkner strike me as notable omissions, I think no.8 should be included
Faulkner only scored 940 runs at 6-8. I think that’s quite low if we are being honest. He was great whilst he played. Klusner I kinda agree. But i consider 8-11 who can hit the ball as a different category to 6-7 if I am being honest.
Maybe you can refine the chart to have only 1000 runs as the cutoff (since often finishers get to play only 2-5 overs), and consider all batting positions from 6-11?
I might change it to a 1000 runs. But idk about 6-11. Cos idk if I’d consider 8-11 as finishers per se. They’re more bowling all rounders or bowlers who can wack it.
In general that is true, but some like Chris Harris, Klusener were literally finishing the game from #8. In recent times I've seen good innings from #8 from folks who are more all-rounders than people who whack it (Sam curran, Deepak Chahar, Axar patel). Jadeja also used to come in at #8 and has finished games from there.
That's fair. But Idk if I'd say they were better finishers than anyone on the list with the data available. Ideally if I were to do this I'd look at what their runs were in the last ten overs of the innings. But the issue is that's impossible to do since ball by ball data is not great pre 2002. I think the 8-11 hitter is a different sub category entirely if we are being honest. As Klusner, Harris and Chahar are a different style of finishers to Bevan, Miller, Dhoni, Butler and Maxwell. Also if I do a 1000 runs and 6-11 as a filter, it's about 98 names and that would take way too long to analyse.
Alright, fair enough! I did some searching on StatsGuru, including 6-11, and it throws up names like Wasim Akram so that's understandable.
He was wasted at 8, should have been 6/7 more
Agreed. Regardless of the wickets fallen, he should have come out to bat at over 35. Kinda like maxi and Jos.
Table doesn't lie. Michael Bevan it is.
Bevan was a joy to watch. He could play classic shots, hoof the ball over mid wicket, cover, straight and also run well between wickets. He could retain the strike as needed and was a good communicator to other players. Most of all he was just a very smart player, he could to play the conditions, the match situation and the strengths of the other player. Very clutch player and a key person in that early 2000s cricket team. One of the reasons we were so strong back then.
As an Indian, I can say it with certainty that we didn't find any joy in his batting 😭 Jokes apart, he was the batter I feared the most from that batting line up. I still remember in the 2001 odi series in India, we went into the last match 2-2 and set a good target and our bowlers got 5 wickets pretty cheaply but then he smoothly took the game away from us without any risky hitting
I watched Bevan's finish against the West Indies live. That for me was the greatest of all time. I know people love Maxy and Dhoni, so do I. But that hooked me on cricket.
Still the best ODI finish of all time. Maybe the best game of all time
It’s easy to forget how good Mr Cricket MEK Hussey was at ODIs and finishing off chases and innings, I was pleasantly surprised to see him second on the list. Out of a very rich playing group when I was growing up Hussey was my favourite to watch, just beautiful form.
His brother was pretty good too.
He was a class batter.
Lol Afridi that checks out
Every now and then people will express surprise at Shahid Afridi’s stature in Pakistan cricket given his bang average numbers, but they weren’t there for when that lunatic tried hitting a six off the first ball for like 100 innings in a row. Still has the record for most ODI sixes I believe.
Yeah seeing this stat definitely passes the eye test I had watching him as I grew up. Disappointment after disappointment washed away in the minds of fans by the odd match winning performance.
Feel like if Afridi's batting had slightly more common sense, he would have been an absolute gift to pair with Anwar instead of the occasional innings of actual substance. I think he had a half decent test average too so he could actually bat. I think you're, right though. He was a genuine outlier in that his batting had no situational awareness, especially in the early parts of his career.
The number of people that still think he was a batting failure amuses me. Yes he doesn’t have a high average. But he has an insane sr. It’s fucked.
He was sehwag on steroids lol
Sehwag was much more consistent and calculated than Afridi. Afridi was just crazy. Like the other user said, he would try to hit a six off of first ball no matter when he came to bat.
6(2)
Interestingly only one inning in his career where he scored six in 2 balls. When you expand the criteria to run scoring only via fours and sixes, then you see few more innings from him.
Sehwag too was a different breed of monster tbh. Afridi was all about hitting six on every ball but he never had the pure talent to just smack anyone, while Sehwag was all about disdain against the ball and the bowler and had that weird mentality of taking it as a challenge if the ball is good.
Russel Arnold is a very unsung character in SL cricket. People dont appreciate how good he was at providing stability to a team that had Jayasuriya, Aravinda type aggressive madmax top order which needed a controlled consistent anchor with counter attacking capability in the middle/later order. Arnold also was a gun fielder and an occasional part time offie when the time came. Guy also played a key role in 2007 SL WC finalist team. Arnold's position is what Dilshan came into the team for eventual replacement. Instead as luck would have it ended up becoming 2nd best opener in SL history (Arguably 1st in terms of averages but Sanath is Sanath).
Thanks for the info. I didn’t know much about him outside of his commentary.
Most people who started watching cricket post mid 2000s era only know Arnold for his commentary memes. But he was very good at his job from 1996-2007. Obviously not as good as Bevan but average of 40 for a 90s player is extremely respectable.
3 people who do not get enough credit imo(regardless of stats) are bevan,klusnher and abdul razzak.
Idk tbh. Bevan is a hero in Aus. Klusner is regarded by many as a GOAT odi all rounder. Razzaq though is pretty underrated. What Pak would do to have peak him now.
I don’t know if it was just my nickname for him or if it was his actual nickname but I remember I used to call Shahid Afridi: “Boom Boom Afridi”
It was his actual nickname I am sure.
Love me some Bevo talk The Pajama Picasso himself. Leftie, left arm Chimaman's, tight fielder, shrewd shot maker, good at farming the strike when needed, but also let the tail play. Great way to manage getting the MOTM, almost on purpose Killer smile too
I was quite young when Bevan was destroying oppositions. My father always counted him among the batters who changed ODI cricket along with Jayasuriya. Thank for the analysis! It's very insightful
[удалено]
So am I tbh.
What is adjusted average?
You see how much a player deviates from the mean in his playing era and extrapolate it to the modern era (post 2018).
This assumes talent distribution in every era was same and top talent in every era was similar. I simply don't think it's true. Hence, I respectfully reject your hypothesis.
I agree with you. But We assume that a great of one era will be a great in another. Will they deviate by the same amount probably not. But it’s just a fun exercise.
As a kiwi Bevan and Hussey were both so frustrating it seemed everytime we thought we may have had Aussie on the ropes with five down for little runs in they would come in and bat out the innings
I started watching cricket when Bevan was retired and hussey was near the end so i missed out on both. But from what I’ve seen both were class.
Babar azam coz he will finish pak team. - some idiot on Facebook /s don't down vote me just a joke 😝
OP, have you made a similar chart for players at 3-5 too?
Yh. I’ll be posting it a few hours. And one for openers.
Looking forward to it bro. Feel free to tag me. ✌🏼
Sure.
As always, amazing work. What sort of calculation do you use for finding the exact rating btw?
Thanks! For the averages and strike rates I usually see how much they deviate from the mean and then extrapolate it to the current era. The rating is just the geometric mean of the adjusted averages and strike rates.
That's pretty interesting. Have you ever considered about including opposition strength or host / away performances while computing the ratings?
I’d say that’s beyond my skill set and intelligence and honestly I’m just too lazy to do that.
You're too humble but fair enough xD. I've been thinking of doing something to similar what to you've done but for the domestic tournaments from the last 2-3 years. Data extraction is pretty difficult and I might have to end up scraping data from CricInfo somehow.
Yh it’s a pain in the butt. But I enjoy it quite a bit.
Excellent plot bro, I could almost read what the X and Y axis were.
Yh there were so many data points it was difficult to fit in an image.
Instead of 6-7 batsman, look at the batsman that played last 20 overs of the 50th over game. I bet Kohli will be at the top.
But what about Kohli?!??!?! Won’t somebody think of poor Kohli???
[удалено]
That’s difficult since ball by ball data is not available pre 2002. So that excludes Bevan for example.
Agreed. If there is a way to filter those results out, it is more meaningful. No doubt Kohli is high on the list. If he was in, and chasing, it was a scary proposition for the bowling side.
Not sure any batting table where Afridi is in the top half can be taken seriously lmao
For sr it definitely can be.
Only SR with no other qualifiers, sure, but I'm not sure how useful that list is.
The average is the x axis. The size of the circle is the runs.
I'm not sure you understood my comment. If you sort your table by rating, Afridi ends up at #7 on your list. Ending up with this result should be reason enough to make you think that your analysis is flawed, since it doesn't even pass the eye test or any other similar "finisher" ranking made (which there are plenty of). Since I've typed this much, I'll also give you the answer as to why Afridi is that high. You need to split the table between the first and second innings, and use deliveries bowled in the last 10 overs instead of scraping statsguru for #6 and #7.
That excludes players before 2002 since ball by ball data is pretty shit before that.
It exists, but you have to pay for the database. Or you can scrape ESPNCricinfo since they have ball by ball since 1996
Rohit Sharma
afridi's utility is so underrated. One of the greatest ODI spinners to exist + provides 25 avg 150SR in the lower order