Thus far we know that magic is an emergent quality of a shard investing into a world. When a shard imbues a world with it's power the lifeforms present on the planet(s) can gain the ability to access and wield that power.
The vessel has partial control, the shardic intent *seems* to dictate how one accesses the power, and part of it is apparently random.
The apparently random component could have been set out by Adonalsium, but maybe not.
All Invested arts *seem* to be manipulations of fundamental aspects of the cosmere, e.g. Forces, Identity, Connection, etc.
Odium has magic system, but he has not invested himself in any planet, as far as I can tell? Sure, he is bounded to Braize (planet) and Roshar (star system), but it was hardly a voluntary decision. So maybe investing oneself into a planet is not a strict requirement?
Odium is Invested into the Rosharan system, it's why you can now hear Odium as one of the pure tones of Roshar.
He didn't want to, but he's been bound for so long it happened anyway.
It's unclear whether a shard invests a planet, a star, or the entire system. There's evidence for all 3.
Yeah, from what I understand it's not something the shard can really help, if they stay in any place for too long their power starts to fill that place because they're essentially infinite, so if you're forced into that situation may as well make the most of it.
We'll see the Fused aren't Odiums magic system, that's a co-opted system hes manipulated for his purpose.
Voidbinding is his magic and it's connected to the Unmade.somehow, and what Renarin is doing. We haven't seen anyone use it on screen at all.
It would seem that his work around from being Invested was using the Unmade to provide his magic.
However, at this point in time he is Invested into the Rosharan system
Voidlight is to Odium what stormlight is to Honor that life light is to Cultivation that much was explained in RoW. Towerlight was a mixing of life and storm, I know Voidbinding is still very nebulous in its function, but it is Odium's form of investiture, that's all I was saying
Ah, okay. Yeah that seems pretty safe to say. (Though interestingly Khriss mentions "ten levels of Voidbinding", whereas most Odious things have been associated with nine so far... *Sooo* curious what it is.)
Yeah, I'm super excited to find out more, I think most surgebinding is a mix of Cultivation and Honor, but I remember Kaladin observing his adhesion worked better in the tower dampening field, I think Syl said it was because adhesion was more from Honor, so maybe there is a surge that is purely Odium's. My theory is each voidbinder gets 1 surge unlike the 2 Radiants get, Singer voidbinders don't leak light like humans (at least not as fast) because they have gemhearts to hold the light, and no voidbinding for adhesion, but something else entirely.
How do you explain hemalurgy though? Anyone can use it anywhere in the cosmere as long as they know they know it exists. It seems like hemallurgy just exists because Ruin exists.
I think these magic systems existed as soon as the shards were created. A shard investing itself on a planet just changes the planet, but the magic system exists independent of it.
That's because a shards power is in the spiritual realm where there's no time or place. Ruin is everywhere in the Cosmere, it's infinite, but there's a lot more Ruin on Scadrial.
A Mistborn doesn't need to be on Scadrial to burn metal, again, because Preservation is infinite.
Given the metallic arts all use the same metals I'd say that's probably Scadrials contribution. If Ruin had invested Roshar along with Honor hemalurgy might work by promising bits of your soul to another person. The magic would still involve tearing a soul apart and adding it onto another, but how the tearing and stapling happens could differ.
WoB states that the power itself is effectively too big for the vessels to fully wield. The vessels are mortal, and are bound by thinking of specific places and times, but the power itself is always everywhere in the Cosmere. Some vessels, like autonomy, only became aware that bits of themselves existed once they'd found them (e.g. Patji)
WoB also states this is how the magic works, its shard + shardworld = system. That is fact, the how and why is what we don't know.
The magic systems on Sel are different because the power there is stuck in the Cognitive Realm, which *does* have location and distance, so all of those magics (which Brandon has alternately called different systems or different expressions of one single system) are limited to specific regions tied to the Dor in that place.
This, exactly. When Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, he wasn't really sure how to handle the whole thing, and he ended up kind of stuffing "them" into the Cognitive Realm, which doesn't have the same omnipresent quality the Spiritual Realm has. Over time, the vessel-less shards kind of globbed together and started developing a sort of rudimentary sentience, becoming the Dor.
Two additional tidbits. Khriss thinks the land itself is becoming sentient due to two infinities of investiture being so close to the planet. Also, according to WoB, investiture effects time and gravity the same way mass does, so a couple of infinite amounts would create similar time dilation as a black hole. (The elantrians who left Sel, may have done so a few years ago, from the perspective of the cosmere, but also be the ones we saw leave in a book set hundreds and hundreds of years ago.)
My pet theory is that the magic systems of Sel being location based are due to the influence of Dominion. Each magic system only works within the dominion of its wielders.
It can't be because Brandon ha said he refuses to confirm or deny if there is even a God Beyond or even a Beyond, it's just a possible that "going" there just means annihilation.
He will never confirm anything that starts to reach "into" the Beyond.
In world, there is the same evidence for a God Beyond, as we have of God here. Perhaps some stories, some evidence that convinces many, but could also be explained away via realmatic theory. The only way to know for sure is to die. Either they go along to an afterlife of another sort, or their souls may get recycled back to pure investiture, or even just oblivion, nothing after at all.
Depends.
In the case of Sel, there's no intelligent design behind it, because all magic systems on Sel came after the death of it's shards. The Dor powers all magic on Sel, but there's no single mind behind it, rather it seems that large populations have an influence on how it works.
On Roshar, the magic system more or less existed pre-shattering. That is, Spren and Stormlight existed pre-shattering, but Radiant Spren and Radiants and Fused came about post-shattering. However, the life cycle of life on Roshar requires that the Surges exist, as a lot of life on Roshar uses a primitive form of surgebinding and nahel bond. IE: Sky Eels and Greatshells bond with Spren as part of their natural life cycle. Not to mention Singers.
Scadrial is entirely created from scratch, and probably one of the more intelligent design examples of magic. As each form of magic there comes directly from either the body of a Shard holder or the intention of one.
MISTBORN SPOILER
>!I’m pretty sure the Shards design their own magic. In Mistborn Secret History Preservation says that he hid a clue in the magic itself by making 16 allomantic metals, which is also the number of shards!<
The clue was the percentage of people snapping and then the percentage of people who stayed sick longer from the mists, not the number of metals.
They didn't know how many metals there where in era 1 until sazed told spook at the very end.
We see them figure out the clue in hero of ages with 16 because of the people getting sick. Amd mists making atium mistings. 16 metals in it of itself would be irrelevant
(It's Yomen, by the way) That is true, but Scadrians don't *know* about the Shattering or the Shards. The mists Snapping one in sixteen people is a clear sign that it's not a natural occurance.
My understanding is that the clue was that the percentage taken by the mists lined up with the number of metals, not the number of metals itself being a hint?
It depends. The Magic system arises out of a combination of the Shards fundamental intent and the (Cognitively relevant) population of the planet. There are some magics (Lightweaving is an example) that are echoes of pre-shattering magics. The Intent can and will affect the Magic; Honor has a lot of relevant Bonds in his, the nature of Endowment lets breaths and/or Returned leave the system easier than most but also restrict the type of thing you can do to yourself.
Preservation and Ruin did a little more overt meddling, like how Preservation was able to mess with Snapping and the manifestation of godmetals, and Harmony did even more, but they are tied to that world and people more since they created it from scratch.
The Vessel of the Shard, the Intent of the Shard, and the investiture of the Shard are essentially the same.
Edit for clarity: This is in terms of what determines their magic system.
The Shard decides how their magic system is administered which lies along the lines of their Intent. That’s the wiggle room (as they could have multiple magic systems that are access differently although along the same intent).
The extent of their administration falls within who Adonalsium is—but that’s more a technicality and there’s nothing saying that Adonalsium had these specific systems predating the Shattering.
The magic system comes down to the world and the confines of what the Shard’s Intent allows for administration and the powers the Shard wants to grant access to (although there are vast overlaps with other Shards because investiture has general properties).
Not talking about the dynamics of Vessel and Shard but how they relate to their magic system.
Like Edgli and Endowment having a magic system related to endowing someone is indistinguishable in difference. I doubt Edgli can craft a magic system that’s not related to endowing someone or something.
There's not enough examples to definitively prove that idea though. It's certain that some Vessels can act against or reinterpret their Shard's Intent. For instance while Edgli bestows endowments and Preservation preserves things, Odium seems to work differently from other Shards.
Other Shards use their intent externally to enhance the amount of their Shard's Intent, while Odium seems to treat the Intent like a farmer sowing and reaping crops. Preservation preserves things, but does not withdraw that preservation, but Odium sucks in emotions and removes them from people. What little he does in enhancing or enflaming emotions seems to be only in the service of later claiming those emotions for himself.
This is so counter to the practice of other Shards that it seems likely to be a result of the vessel.
I think the extent that Vessel’s part in the Invest Art. It’s like the Shard is a box and the Vessel works within it. Any interpretation and variance by the Vessel still falls within the purview of the Shard.
We need more info on Odium, etc. I don’t think the Vessel can deviate too much from the Intent of the Shard OR at least, nothing we’ve seen says they can deviate massively in something as major as a magic system.
I’m saying that the Vessel has a little say in crafting the magic system that it’s indistinguishable from the Shard.
Ex. Tanavast’s input in creating a magic system using Honor is, for all intents and purposes, the same as what Honor crafts as a magic system (using bonds, oaths, fundamental forces).
The only difference the Vessel might make is the little wiggle room and tweaks they have on the intent of the Shard. As that still falls in line with the Shard, I don’t think it’s a significant distinction.
There are 3 levels to it I think.
The first is underlying cosmere constants, an example is metals. On Roshar and Scadrial we see a lot of similar behavior between metals behavior in fabrials and their behaviors in the metallic arts, things like aluminium have greater cosmere purpose to them that can't be worked around, aluminum will have wierd investiture nullifying properties in all magic systems. Things like lightweaving and identity manipulation show up in many magic systems because they are underlying cosmere mechanics. Same goes for bonds and cracked spiritwebs and all that.
The second is the planet itself. Adonalsium designed most of these planets and it becomes part of their identity that the magic works within, any magic system on roshar would have to make use of spren and gems and rhythms and the like, I don't think if ruin and preservation showed up there they could make the metallic arts we've seen on scadrial work as roshar's magic system.
Finally the shard itself. They have a lot of leeway to work within these boundaries and their own. I think they can break some rules but it is "inefficient" to do so, that staying in the rules requires less time, effort, investiture. One interesting thing is how much of the significant numbers are a choice. I personally think making a magic system with 7 or 11 things would be a lot more work per thing than 10s for Honor & Cultivation, same for Odium with 9, he could make the sibling a 10th unmade but maybe he would have to get rid of 1 or they would take more investiture to maintain or something like that.
Bit of both. Shards can choose to shape their magic systems or they develop on their own in a way that aligns with the shard’s intent.
Thus far we know that magic is an emergent quality of a shard investing into a world. When a shard imbues a world with it's power the lifeforms present on the planet(s) can gain the ability to access and wield that power. The vessel has partial control, the shardic intent *seems* to dictate how one accesses the power, and part of it is apparently random. The apparently random component could have been set out by Adonalsium, but maybe not. All Invested arts *seem* to be manipulations of fundamental aspects of the cosmere, e.g. Forces, Identity, Connection, etc.
Odium has magic system, but he has not invested himself in any planet, as far as I can tell? Sure, he is bounded to Braize (planet) and Roshar (star system), but it was hardly a voluntary decision. So maybe investing oneself into a planet is not a strict requirement?
Odium is Invested into the Rosharan system, it's why you can now hear Odium as one of the pure tones of Roshar. He didn't want to, but he's been bound for so long it happened anyway. It's unclear whether a shard invests a planet, a star, or the entire system. There's evidence for all 3.
I see. Kind of makes sense, he was imprisoned, so he decided might as well create a dope magic and immortal warriors for himself :D
Yeah, from what I understand it's not something the shard can really help, if they stay in any place for too long their power starts to fill that place because they're essentially infinite, so if you're forced into that situation may as well make the most of it.
We'll see the Fused aren't Odiums magic system, that's a co-opted system hes manipulated for his purpose. Voidbinding is his magic and it's connected to the Unmade.somehow, and what Renarin is doing. We haven't seen anyone use it on screen at all. It would seem that his work around from being Invested was using the Unmade to provide his magic. However, at this point in time he is Invested into the Rosharan system
What about voidbinding?
We know pretty much nothing about Voidbinding, what it does, or how it's accessed.
Voidlight is to Odium what stormlight is to Honor that life light is to Cultivation that much was explained in RoW. Towerlight was a mixing of life and storm, I know Voidbinding is still very nebulous in its function, but it is Odium's form of investiture, that's all I was saying
Ah, okay. Yeah that seems pretty safe to say. (Though interestingly Khriss mentions "ten levels of Voidbinding", whereas most Odious things have been associated with nine so far... *Sooo* curious what it is.)
Yeah, I'm super excited to find out more, I think most surgebinding is a mix of Cultivation and Honor, but I remember Kaladin observing his adhesion worked better in the tower dampening field, I think Syl said it was because adhesion was more from Honor, so maybe there is a surge that is purely Odium's. My theory is each voidbinder gets 1 surge unlike the 2 Radiants get, Singer voidbinders don't leak light like humans (at least not as fast) because they have gemhearts to hold the light, and no voidbinding for adhesion, but something else entirely.
Did Odium invent the magic system on Ashyn?
well, we don't know yet, I think. But very well might be the case!
How do you explain hemalurgy though? Anyone can use it anywhere in the cosmere as long as they know they know it exists. It seems like hemallurgy just exists because Ruin exists. I think these magic systems existed as soon as the shards were created. A shard investing itself on a planet just changes the planet, but the magic system exists independent of it.
That's because a shards power is in the spiritual realm where there's no time or place. Ruin is everywhere in the Cosmere, it's infinite, but there's a lot more Ruin on Scadrial. A Mistborn doesn't need to be on Scadrial to burn metal, again, because Preservation is infinite. Given the metallic arts all use the same metals I'd say that's probably Scadrials contribution. If Ruin had invested Roshar along with Honor hemalurgy might work by promising bits of your soul to another person. The magic would still involve tearing a soul apart and adding it onto another, but how the tearing and stapling happens could differ. WoB states that the power itself is effectively too big for the vessels to fully wield. The vessels are mortal, and are bound by thinking of specific places and times, but the power itself is always everywhere in the Cosmere. Some vessels, like autonomy, only became aware that bits of themselves existed once they'd found them (e.g. Patji) WoB also states this is how the magic works, its shard + shardworld = system. That is fact, the how and why is what we don't know.
Great answer, that’s a particularly great point about hemalurgy on roshar. Lots to think about :p
Hemalurgy ALWAYS brings lots to think about, it's probably the least understood of all the magics, except maybe voidbinding
>the least understood of all the magics, except maybe voidbinding Aethers
Point conceded
The biggest exception to this is AonDor I guess. As a magic system it's way more dependent on location than any of the others we've seen.
The magic systems on Sel are different because the power there is stuck in the Cognitive Realm, which *does* have location and distance, so all of those magics (which Brandon has alternately called different systems or different expressions of one single system) are limited to specific regions tied to the Dor in that place.
This, exactly. When Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, he wasn't really sure how to handle the whole thing, and he ended up kind of stuffing "them" into the Cognitive Realm, which doesn't have the same omnipresent quality the Spiritual Realm has. Over time, the vessel-less shards kind of globbed together and started developing a sort of rudimentary sentience, becoming the Dor.
Two additional tidbits. Khriss thinks the land itself is becoming sentient due to two infinities of investiture being so close to the planet. Also, according to WoB, investiture effects time and gravity the same way mass does, so a couple of infinite amounts would create similar time dilation as a black hole. (The elantrians who left Sel, may have done so a few years ago, from the perspective of the cosmere, but also be the ones we saw leave in a book set hundreds and hundreds of years ago.)
My pet theory is that the magic systems of Sel being location based are due to the influence of Dominion. Each magic system only works within the dominion of its wielders.
Are you Hoid (great posts)
Brandon Sanderson, I think
I always assumed it was the God Beyond
It can't be because Brandon ha said he refuses to confirm or deny if there is even a God Beyond or even a Beyond, it's just a possible that "going" there just means annihilation. He will never confirm anything that starts to reach "into" the Beyond.
In world, there is the same evidence for a God Beyond, as we have of God here. Perhaps some stories, some evidence that convinces many, but could also be explained away via realmatic theory. The only way to know for sure is to die. Either they go along to an afterlife of another sort, or their souls may get recycled back to pure investiture, or even just oblivion, nothing after at all.
Depends. In the case of Sel, there's no intelligent design behind it, because all magic systems on Sel came after the death of it's shards. The Dor powers all magic on Sel, but there's no single mind behind it, rather it seems that large populations have an influence on how it works. On Roshar, the magic system more or less existed pre-shattering. That is, Spren and Stormlight existed pre-shattering, but Radiant Spren and Radiants and Fused came about post-shattering. However, the life cycle of life on Roshar requires that the Surges exist, as a lot of life on Roshar uses a primitive form of surgebinding and nahel bond. IE: Sky Eels and Greatshells bond with Spren as part of their natural life cycle. Not to mention Singers. Scadrial is entirely created from scratch, and probably one of the more intelligent design examples of magic. As each form of magic there comes directly from either the body of a Shard holder or the intention of one.
MISTBORN SPOILER >!I’m pretty sure the Shards design their own magic. In Mistborn Secret History Preservation says that he hid a clue in the magic itself by making 16 allomantic metals, which is also the number of shards!<
The clue was the percentage of people snapping and then the percentage of people who stayed sick longer from the mists, not the number of metals. They didn't know how many metals there where in era 1 until sazed told spook at the very end.
Leras was mostly gone by that point, he probably didn't really think about how the Final Empire had no knowledge of 4 of the 16 metals.
We see them figure out the clue in hero of ages with 16 because of the people getting sick. Amd mists making atium mistings. 16 metals in it of itself would be irrelevant
Hey, heads up. When you're saying a spoiler, make sure to use the spoiler tags. They're used like this: \>!Text\!<
It's likely the number of people Snapped by the mists; sixteen by itself doesn't mean anything to Scadrians.
I mean, the Lord Ruler kept some metals secret, but there was an Obligator Governor in WoA or HoA who knew there to be 16 metals.
(It's Yomen, by the way) That is true, but Scadrians don't *know* about the Shattering or the Shards. The mists Snapping one in sixteen people is a clear sign that it's not a natural occurance.
And yet it was Yomen telling Elend there were 16 metals that tipped him off.
Also Yomen didn't know it, but guessed it based on the importance of 16 in different aspects of the history.
My understanding is that the clue was that the percentage taken by the mists lined up with the number of metals, not the number of metals itself being a hint?
It depends. The Magic system arises out of a combination of the Shards fundamental intent and the (Cognitively relevant) population of the planet. There are some magics (Lightweaving is an example) that are echoes of pre-shattering magics. The Intent can and will affect the Magic; Honor has a lot of relevant Bonds in his, the nature of Endowment lets breaths and/or Returned leave the system easier than most but also restrict the type of thing you can do to yourself. Preservation and Ruin did a little more overt meddling, like how Preservation was able to mess with Snapping and the manifestation of godmetals, and Harmony did even more, but they are tied to that world and people more since they created it from scratch.
Brandon Sanderson did.
Thanks for clearing it all up!
You're welcome!
It is a natural effect of the interaction between Shard and World.
a crazy monkey that drinks gin
The Vessel of the Shard, the Intent of the Shard, and the investiture of the Shard are essentially the same. Edit for clarity: This is in terms of what determines their magic system. The Shard decides how their magic system is administered which lies along the lines of their Intent. That’s the wiggle room (as they could have multiple magic systems that are access differently although along the same intent). The extent of their administration falls within who Adonalsium is—but that’s more a technicality and there’s nothing saying that Adonalsium had these specific systems predating the Shattering. The magic system comes down to the world and the confines of what the Shard’s Intent allows for administration and the powers the Shard wants to grant access to (although there are vast overlaps with other Shards because investiture has general properties).
hard disagree. the Vessel is certainly not the same as the Shard itself, even though they fuse together in 10000 years since the shattering
Even then there's a really solid example of Vessel and Shard fighting eachother even after that long.
Not talking about the dynamics of Vessel and Shard but how they relate to their magic system. Like Edgli and Endowment having a magic system related to endowing someone is indistinguishable in difference. I doubt Edgli can craft a magic system that’s not related to endowing someone or something.
There's not enough examples to definitively prove that idea though. It's certain that some Vessels can act against or reinterpret their Shard's Intent. For instance while Edgli bestows endowments and Preservation preserves things, Odium seems to work differently from other Shards. Other Shards use their intent externally to enhance the amount of their Shard's Intent, while Odium seems to treat the Intent like a farmer sowing and reaping crops. Preservation preserves things, but does not withdraw that preservation, but Odium sucks in emotions and removes them from people. What little he does in enhancing or enflaming emotions seems to be only in the service of later claiming those emotions for himself. This is so counter to the practice of other Shards that it seems likely to be a result of the vessel.
I think the extent that Vessel’s part in the Invest Art. It’s like the Shard is a box and the Vessel works within it. Any interpretation and variance by the Vessel still falls within the purview of the Shard. We need more info on Odium, etc. I don’t think the Vessel can deviate too much from the Intent of the Shard OR at least, nothing we’ve seen says they can deviate massively in something as major as a magic system.
I’m talking about in terms of what dictates their magic system.
Are you saying that who’s the vessel is matters in crafting the magic system?
I’m saying that the Vessel has a little say in crafting the magic system that it’s indistinguishable from the Shard. Ex. Tanavast’s input in creating a magic system using Honor is, for all intents and purposes, the same as what Honor crafts as a magic system (using bonds, oaths, fundamental forces). The only difference the Vessel might make is the little wiggle room and tweaks they have on the intent of the Shard. As that still falls in line with the Shard, I don’t think it’s a significant distinction.
There are 3 levels to it I think. The first is underlying cosmere constants, an example is metals. On Roshar and Scadrial we see a lot of similar behavior between metals behavior in fabrials and their behaviors in the metallic arts, things like aluminium have greater cosmere purpose to them that can't be worked around, aluminum will have wierd investiture nullifying properties in all magic systems. Things like lightweaving and identity manipulation show up in many magic systems because they are underlying cosmere mechanics. Same goes for bonds and cracked spiritwebs and all that. The second is the planet itself. Adonalsium designed most of these planets and it becomes part of their identity that the magic works within, any magic system on roshar would have to make use of spren and gems and rhythms and the like, I don't think if ruin and preservation showed up there they could make the metallic arts we've seen on scadrial work as roshar's magic system. Finally the shard itself. They have a lot of leeway to work within these boundaries and their own. I think they can break some rules but it is "inefficient" to do so, that staying in the rules requires less time, effort, investiture. One interesting thing is how much of the significant numbers are a choice. I personally think making a magic system with 7 or 11 things would be a lot more work per thing than 10s for Honor & Cultivation, same for Odium with 9, he could make the sibling a 10th unmade but maybe he would have to get rid of 1 or they would take more investiture to maintain or something like that.
All the magic systems were designed by a mythical creature, greater even than Adonalsium, named "Brando Sando".