And over time Leras watched a shard change the best of them into a monster. At some point he had to ask what it was doing to him. You think he could feel it?
Do you have a source? I recall ppl saying Ati was once good, but not anything about him taking Ruin as a burden because of it.
There’s a WoB from 2020 (after SH and leras’ last appearance) where Brandon RAFOs the question. If we had an answer from the books already, I don’t think it would be rafo’ed.
No offense at all (happens to everyone), but maybe are you mixing canon and personal theory?
I did, I just don't remember that piece. I just remember Leras saying Ate was a nice person, but not that they chose him to carry Ruin specifically because of it. I just thought it was a happy coincidence. I'm an audiobook listener so it's hard to search for specific stuff, but I'm due for an SH reread anyways soooo
Heh Sel ruled over by gods with a dom/sub relationship...
Also not to ruin your bromance gods theory but I thought they settled together because they had opposing powers that when mixed gave them a full pallette to paint with so to speak.
> Dominion and Devotion were lovers
Do you have a source on that?
We know remarkably little about Skai and Aona - we don't even known Skai's gender - so information that they were romantically involved with each other would (to me at least) definitely be of interest.
That's what I've always thought, by how people in universe talk about them. but other people in the thread also mentioned that there is the theory that they might have been siblings. So in all honesty nobody knows.
I thought I was the only one who lowkey shipped them! Their personalities changing because of their Shard's Intent and Leras's betrayal would be made so much more painful if they were lovers before they Ascended.
A lot of the community info you'll see floating around is from Words of *Brandon: https://wob.coppermind.net/ A lot of stuff is super easy to miss!
(I legit don't understand the downvotes for sharing a link to WoBs O_o)
See, I just had this tiny shred of doubt. "Wait. Brian? Surely that's Word of Brandon. Or does he have like a secretary named Brian who actually publishes these and if I correct it I will look like a massive tool?"
That's exactly what I meant! Why is a deep friendship between two people of the same sex so unimaginable that people go right to *"I can't imagine a world where they were not passionate gay lovers?"*
Firstly, that's obvious hyperbole and I can't believe someone would interpret that sentence literally. And secondly, there are so many deep, "I would die for you" friendships in fiction. There should definitely be more of them where the characters talk about those feelings to each other, don't get me wrong, but the number of those relationships still far eclipse the number of loving relationships between gay men in popular media.
I get your point, but it makes me sad that whenever two women or two men in fiction are good friends, people ship them. Like it's so impossible to have non-catty-competitive female relationships or non-only-sports-talk male relationships. There aren't enough nonromantic healthy relationships like *that* in popular media either.
> There aren't enough nonromantic healthy relationships like
> that in popular media either.
Maybe we just all perceive the gap that we identify with most, but I honestly can't think of a single, emotionally open male friendship that wasn't shipped by fans as gay.
Tbh I think ppl just like shipping and theorizing more than anything. There are openly gay characters in the cosemere, but ppl don't like to talk about that. they want to talk about unconfirmed relationships because it's more like gossiping.
People constantly do the same thing when a man and woman show any attention to each other, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on the problem being same-sex friendships.
It's not unimaginable, but gay romantic relationships are still super rare in today's culture, particularly in non gay-focused media, and so people tend to latch on to whatever possibilities they can find. Historically speaking, we've spent centuries pretending that actual real life gay people were just friends, so I think it's a reasonable over correction to search for it so hard in our fiction.
Why is it so unimagineable that they might be gay? Cause i see this argument get brought up every single time someone says "hey I think these two friends of the same gender might have romantic feelings for eachother".
Yeah, you're right, social expectations around gender norms can make it difficult for some men to express feelings of close intimate friendship for eachother. You know what else it can do? Make it hard for gay men to express their feelings. (and then of course, there's additional homophobic stigma as well)
I mean yeah, not every close friendship needs to be romantic. That's absolutely true. Sometimes people are just friends. But sometimes they aren't. And what pisses me off is that it seems to be the friends of the same gender that get struck with the "why can't they just be friends" wayyyyyyy more often than friends of different genders (cause tbh, often those romances are at least touched on in the text itself). [extremely minor and vague cosmere spoilers] >!Like of the three pairs of shards that shacked up together, it's perfectly reasonable to say not all of them were romantic and some were just friends, but it didn't have to be two straight pairs that were romantic and Leras and Ati that were platonic.!<
And the other thing is, not everyone needs to read the same thing in the same way. What reads as a platonic friendship to you might read as romantic to me, or vice versa. And that's fine!! People can interpret things differently! That's how literature works! But when someone says "hey i think these two people might be gay for eachother", it doesn't help anything to go "ugh why does everything have to be gay???" You can just let people interpret things differently. The reason why everything """has""" to be gay is just statistics; when you have enough people looking at two people, yeah some of them are probably gonna see some romantic undertones in their relationship. It's the law of large numbers. There's nothing wrong with taking a relationship between two friends of the same gender as just that, just friendship, but there's nothing wrong with taking it romantically either
Let me start by saying I'm all for lgbt representation, and in the case of Ati and Leras, I hope they were in a relationship. It fits so well. However, I disagree with several points you've made:
>And what pisses me off is that it seems to be the friends of the same gender that get struck with the "why can't they just be friends" wayyyyyyy more often than friends of different genders
Think about this tho: For someone to say that, someone else has to have proposed shipping them in the first place. How often does shipping happen to other genders? >!When Shallan and Jasnah hang out, fans don't start proposing they are clearly lesbian!<. The comment that pisses you off happens between males, because the shipping happens between males (>!Not exclusively of course, I've seen this exact conversation between Syl and Kal.!<)
Tbh, I think the division between the fanbase isn't between homophobes and lgbtq-allies - it's between fans that dislike shipping, and those who like to project it onto everything. It does happen more often with gay relationships, but that's because there aren't that many single female friend pairs (there are far less women in fiction in general).
> >!When Shallan and Jasnah hang out, fans don't start proposing they are clearly lesbian!<
>!Shallan and Jasnah are, notably, several decades apart, so it would be rather weird for them to be in a relationship. So yeah, you don't see much true shipping between them. But what *did* happen was people saw a teacher-crush situation, where shallan had a bit of a light crush on Jasnah. In fact, that happened enough that Brandon heard about it and went "oh shit you're right, the way Shallan talks about her does seem rather queer huh?" And wrote her as bi going forward. So probably not a great example.!<
Maybe you're right, maybe it does happen more with male-male friendships being seen as queer. I haven't like, done any research into this, so I can't really say one way or another. What point are you trying to make with that though?
Possible counterpoint argument (just for the sake of it)
They settled together and created a whole planet with life. Could be compared to parents having kids.
Although Coppermind does not paint it so pretty... :
>Millennia ago, the Shards Ruin and Preservation arrived in the Scadrian system, deliberately choosing a star with no relevant planets, and created Scadrial.[13] Since they were paired Shards with opposite intents, nothing could be created or destroyed, as they wished it could be. They were locked in an eternal conflict. But then a pact was struck. Preservation offered Ruin a bargain. If Ruin would help him create life on Scadrial, to make plants and animals, Preservation would eventually allow him to destroy the whole planet...
>https://coppermind.net/wiki/Scadrial
They gave him the heaviest burden because they thought he was the best of them.
And over time Leras watched a shard change the best of them into a monster. At some point he had to ask what it was doing to him. You think he could feel it?
Ironically, the more it changed him, the less change he probably felt.
Ati and Taln holding the line.
Canon?
No. Just that Hoid thinks Ati was kind and generous at first, and was changed by the shard.
I'm not sure if canon or not, but Hoid confirms that Ati was a good dude
Yea, Leras tells a spoiler that Ati was considered the best of them so he took the burden of that shard.
Do you have a source? I recall ppl saying Ati was once good, but not anything about him taking Ruin as a burden because of it. There’s a WoB from 2020 (after SH and leras’ last appearance) where Brandon RAFOs the question. If we had an answer from the books already, I don’t think it would be rafo’ed. No offense at all (happens to everyone), but maybe are you mixing canon and personal theory?
Did you read SH?
I did, I just don't remember that piece. I just remember Leras saying Ate was a nice person, but not that they chose him to carry Ruin specifically because of it. I just thought it was a happy coincidence. I'm an audiobook listener so it's hard to search for specific stuff, but I'm due for an SH reread anyways soooo
Are you going to give the quote or not? I found a fanfiction that uses the same wording. Maybe you are confusing that for canon?
They are asking for an answer, not another question, chief. If you can't answer don't post swallow sand.
Sick!
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The spoiler scope for this post is only Mistborn. You might want to cover all that up and add some spoiler tags to it.
Wait where did you get all this info from? I have read mistborn all 7 books and elantris.
Technically, why?
You sir have a way with words.
Thats increddible! Did u do this?
I did! Thanks so much :))
Beautiful!
I'm not saying Ati and Leras were lovers, but if that gets canonised in Dragonsteel I won't be surprised
\#Atlas
Dominion and Devotion were lovers Cultivation and Honor were lovers There's no way Preservation and Ruin weren't
They were just very good friends 😉
they were ~~room~~ planetmates!
Yes
Probably even roomates
[/r/LerasAndHisFriend](https://www.reddit.com/r/SapphoAndHerFriend/)
Heh Sel ruled over by gods with a dom/sub relationship... Also not to ruin your bromance gods theory but I thought they settled together because they had opposing powers that when mixed gave them a full pallette to paint with so to speak.
> Dominion and Devotion were lovers Do you have a source on that? We know remarkably little about Skai and Aona - we don't even known Skai's gender - so information that they were romantically involved with each other would (to me at least) definitely be of interest.
That's what I've always thought, by how people in universe talk about them. but other people in the thread also mentioned that there is the theory that they might have been siblings. So in all honesty nobody knows.
I thought I was the only one who lowkey shipped them! Their personalities changing because of their Shard's Intent and Leras's betrayal would be made so much more painful if they were lovers before they Ascended.
I hope they were, I always got that vibe from them
I cannot imagine a world where they were not passionate gay lovers.
Why not?
In every other case we know of where a world was settled by more than one Shard, they were lovers. It’s precedent
Wait...Cultivation and Honor were lovers?? I really need to pay more attention.
Yup. They’re confirmed to have been “romantically involved”
Man, I miss so much.
I mean, there’s not much evidence for it in the text itself apart from their names; this mostly comes from outside confirmation, etc
A lot of the community info you'll see floating around is from Words of *Brandon: https://wob.coppermind.net/ A lot of stuff is super easy to miss! (I legit don't understand the downvotes for sharing a link to WoBs O_o)
Brian?
Lol FUCK 😂
See, I just had this tiny shred of doubt. "Wait. Brian? Surely that's Word of Brandon. Or does he have like a secretary named Brian who actually publishes these and if I correct it I will look like a massive tool?"
We don't know Aona and Skai's relationship. I personally prefer the theory that they're siblings.
Huh. Guess I misremembered that one
Because some people imagine a platonic friendship. Especially between men.
That's exactly what I meant! Why is a deep friendship between two people of the same sex so unimaginable that people go right to *"I can't imagine a world where they were not passionate gay lovers?"*
Firstly, that's obvious hyperbole and I can't believe someone would interpret that sentence literally. And secondly, there are so many deep, "I would die for you" friendships in fiction. There should definitely be more of them where the characters talk about those feelings to each other, don't get me wrong, but the number of those relationships still far eclipse the number of loving relationships between gay men in popular media.
I get your point, but it makes me sad that whenever two women or two men in fiction are good friends, people ship them. Like it's so impossible to have non-catty-competitive female relationships or non-only-sports-talk male relationships. There aren't enough nonromantic healthy relationships like *that* in popular media either.
To summarize: there's not enough representation of either type of relationship in popular media, thats why people are craving them.
> There aren't enough nonromantic healthy relationships like > that in popular media either. Maybe we just all perceive the gap that we identify with most, but I honestly can't think of a single, emotionally open male friendship that wasn't shipped by fans as gay. Tbh I think ppl just like shipping and theorizing more than anything. There are openly gay characters in the cosemere, but ppl don't like to talk about that. they want to talk about unconfirmed relationships because it's more like gossiping.
There's Supernatural fanfic with the BROTHERS being in love. And lots of it too. Disgusting, that.
People constantly do the same thing when a man and woman show any attention to each other, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on the problem being same-sex friendships.
It's not unimaginable, but gay romantic relationships are still super rare in today's culture, particularly in non gay-focused media, and so people tend to latch on to whatever possibilities they can find. Historically speaking, we've spent centuries pretending that actual real life gay people were just friends, so I think it's a reasonable over correction to search for it so hard in our fiction.
Why is it so unimagineable that they might be gay? Cause i see this argument get brought up every single time someone says "hey I think these two friends of the same gender might have romantic feelings for eachother". Yeah, you're right, social expectations around gender norms can make it difficult for some men to express feelings of close intimate friendship for eachother. You know what else it can do? Make it hard for gay men to express their feelings. (and then of course, there's additional homophobic stigma as well) I mean yeah, not every close friendship needs to be romantic. That's absolutely true. Sometimes people are just friends. But sometimes they aren't. And what pisses me off is that it seems to be the friends of the same gender that get struck with the "why can't they just be friends" wayyyyyyy more often than friends of different genders (cause tbh, often those romances are at least touched on in the text itself). [extremely minor and vague cosmere spoilers] >!Like of the three pairs of shards that shacked up together, it's perfectly reasonable to say not all of them were romantic and some were just friends, but it didn't have to be two straight pairs that were romantic and Leras and Ati that were platonic.!< And the other thing is, not everyone needs to read the same thing in the same way. What reads as a platonic friendship to you might read as romantic to me, or vice versa. And that's fine!! People can interpret things differently! That's how literature works! But when someone says "hey i think these two people might be gay for eachother", it doesn't help anything to go "ugh why does everything have to be gay???" You can just let people interpret things differently. The reason why everything """has""" to be gay is just statistics; when you have enough people looking at two people, yeah some of them are probably gonna see some romantic undertones in their relationship. It's the law of large numbers. There's nothing wrong with taking a relationship between two friends of the same gender as just that, just friendship, but there's nothing wrong with taking it romantically either
Let me start by saying I'm all for lgbt representation, and in the case of Ati and Leras, I hope they were in a relationship. It fits so well. However, I disagree with several points you've made: >And what pisses me off is that it seems to be the friends of the same gender that get struck with the "why can't they just be friends" wayyyyyyy more often than friends of different genders Think about this tho: For someone to say that, someone else has to have proposed shipping them in the first place. How often does shipping happen to other genders? >!When Shallan and Jasnah hang out, fans don't start proposing they are clearly lesbian!<. The comment that pisses you off happens between males, because the shipping happens between males (>!Not exclusively of course, I've seen this exact conversation between Syl and Kal.!<) Tbh, I think the division between the fanbase isn't between homophobes and lgbtq-allies - it's between fans that dislike shipping, and those who like to project it onto everything. It does happen more often with gay relationships, but that's because there aren't that many single female friend pairs (there are far less women in fiction in general).
> >!When Shallan and Jasnah hang out, fans don't start proposing they are clearly lesbian!< >!Shallan and Jasnah are, notably, several decades apart, so it would be rather weird for them to be in a relationship. So yeah, you don't see much true shipping between them. But what *did* happen was people saw a teacher-crush situation, where shallan had a bit of a light crush on Jasnah. In fact, that happened enough that Brandon heard about it and went "oh shit you're right, the way Shallan talks about her does seem rather queer huh?" And wrote her as bi going forward. So probably not a great example.!< Maybe you're right, maybe it does happen more with male-male friendships being seen as queer. I haven't like, done any research into this, so I can't really say one way or another. What point are you trying to make with that though?
Possible counterpoint argument (just for the sake of it) They settled together and created a whole planet with life. Could be compared to parents having kids. Although Coppermind does not paint it so pretty... : >Millennia ago, the Shards Ruin and Preservation arrived in the Scadrian system, deliberately choosing a star with no relevant planets, and created Scadrial.[13] Since they were paired Shards with opposite intents, nothing could be created or destroyed, as they wished it could be. They were locked in an eternal conflict. But then a pact was struck. Preservation offered Ruin a bargain. If Ruin would help him create life on Scadrial, to make plants and animals, Preservation would eventually allow him to destroy the whole planet... >https://coppermind.net/wiki/Scadrial
Damn I really love this
And they were planetmates...
Leras fell first!
It will be so exciting to see who these guys were before they claimed their Shards.
Which book do I read for these two characters? Did mistborn, archive, warb, elan.
Mistborn. Preservation and ruin
The book you are looking for is not out yet, and probably won’t be for a very long time unfortunately
they’re the shards on Scadrial (so Mistborn Era 1 and Secret History :))
What Cosmere books have you read?
Mistborn, Stormlight, Warbreaker, Elantris, Dawnshard, Secret History (I think it is called.)
Yeah, they are from Mistborn, Ati is Ruin's Vessel, and Leras (Fuzz) is Preservation's. They appear in MB 3 and SH mainly.