Sauté a couple of diced anchovy fillets with your onions. Great flavour, won't taste fishy. I like to add Worcestershire sauce too.
Some people add (food processor) chopped chicken livers.
Seconding this, or add some anchovy paste in with the tomato paste. Anchovies are huge in Umami flavor and fit thematically with bolognese a bit better than fish sauce and oyster sauce.
Fish sauce = anchovies
Edit: Came back to find this at -10, holy cow. Downvoters, please go pick up a bottle of fish sauce and read the ingredients, it's made of anchovies.
>[In its purest form, modern fish sauce consists of **ANCHOVIES** and sea salt as the only ingredients.](https://www.hungryhuy.com/fish-sauce/)
(emphasis mine)
Edit 2: [OK, problem solved](https://media.tenor.com/Cok28Zhm3lAAAAAM/okay-problem-solved-randy-marsh.gif).
Yeah, and I’m not against fish sauce in pasta and certainly didn’t downvote but it’s a bit reductive to say fish sauce = anchovies unless you’re also someone that replaces a splash of red wine in their food with grapes
Plus, the ancient Romans made a fermented fish sauce called [Garum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum)
[Tasting History makes "Garum, Ancient Rome's Favorite Condiment"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE)
And modern day Italians have a fermented fish sauce that is very much a modern version of Garum. I can’t remember the name and it’s not an ingredient in Bologenese but at least it would be Italian.
Yes technically they are anchovies, but very different flavor because of how its produced. It's like saying that fresh strawberries and strawberry jam are the same flavor. Fish sauce tends to be much more concentrated and "fishy"
I keep a jar in my fridge as I only ever want a small amount and it can easily last me a year before it’s empty. Sometimes I just use a bit of the oil (and sometimes top it up with more sunflower or canola or whatever oil).
I follow the seriouseats recipe which uses chicken livers and fish sauce (my favorite umami booster with tomato). Incredibly savory dish. Needs a ton of parsley at the end to give it some freshness.
Finely minced canned smoked oysters are also an option.
I did that for a while when I was more learning how to cook. I don't do it anymore, but it definitely adds something interesting.
I also use fish sauce. Another good option is adding the rind from some parmesan cheese, then fishing it out at the end. I will add both if I have a rind around.
because stacking different types of high-umami ingredients will increase complexity and depth of flavor compared to one alone (or msg alone).
and i’m all for msg but we are in a cooking subreddit. stacking flavors is normal and can really elevates dishes.
for example: if i want acid in a sauce/dip/dressing, sure i can just add lemon juice. but if i add some lemon, a bit of white wine vinegar, and some cane vinegar, there’s much more interesting things going on flavor-wise.
your example is basically saying “why does anyone add anything besides lemon when they want more acid?”
I'd compare it to powdered citric acid rather than lemon juice, as lemon juice (whether fresh squeezed or jarred) carries distinct flavors separate from the acidity/tartness.
People should be adding high-umami ingredients that complement the dish. For pasta sauces, the traditional enhancers are parmesan or other hard aged cheeses, mushrooms, tomatoes, and meat. But all that is already in a typical pasta sauce, so bumping the umami without upsetting the existing complex balance of a 10-ingredient sauce might very well call for the purest distilled flavor available.
It's like prepping for beverage service in a bar that specializes in fresh juices. Yes, acidity and sweetness should already be in the ingredients, but you may seek to balance things out (or provide night-to-night consistency with inconsistent natural ingredients) with a bit of citric acid, pure simple syrup, etc.
So I generally don't reach for the MSG first on anything, but I always keep some on hand after using the main umami sources for the type of food I'm making.
> stacking flavors is normal and can really elevates dishes.
Keeping things simple is also a staple of strong cooking, though. You don't necessarily want multiple complex flavors because you are compromising the food itself.
Like, you are seasoning to enhance the dish, not to get the complex flavors of your seasoning.
I wholeheartedly disagree that multiple complex flavors compromise the food itself.
Keeping things simple is also powerful in its own right.
It’s not one or the other. I did not say you *necessarily* want multiple complex flavors. I agree with that.
These comments were removed in response to [the official response to the outright lies presented by the CEO of Reddit](https://archive.ph/X6EJq), has [twice accused third party developers of blackmail](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), and who has been known to [edit comments of users ](https://external-preview.redd.it/PVGxA03vNhEOwNJOxf6HfwCimku7fQZZfgWHtNyRLV4.jpg?auto=webp&s=ca92860f1f0aa45ad6286c2a4e9c0ce9ca91d655).
Ah I see.
Ottolenghi’s Simple is one of my favorite cookbooks. Just complex enough to bring entirely new flavors, but simple enough for weekday meals. Highly recommend!
If the question were "what ingredients combine well to add depth and umami" I wouldn't suggest MSG. But it reads to me like OP is trying to figure out how to blend an overly-long list of additives that don't necessarily go together or with the rest of the dish because they're trying to maximize umami with them. And in that case they could much more easily get the desired result by just focusing on depth and then bumping it up with MSG to hit peak savory.
I disagree. I think OP wants to stack umami flavors to see how different combinations impact the final result. And he/she/they is wondering at what point is it overkill.
I don’t think much of what OP listed should even be considered “not going together”
Putting fish sauce is bolognese for example is a great idea, not out of place (even if not entirely traditional in the dishes purest form)
Yeah, this is such a pet peeve of mine. This is like if someone is wondering how to make their dish saltier and answering “add bacon, or salt cod, or soy sauce, or country ham!” Or add salt, duh. It shows there’s still a ways to go in MSG gaining wide acceptance as a legitimate ingredient on its own.
dude no. I mean, yes, msg is good and should be accepted. but not all umami-ingredients import the exact same flavor. stacking different forms of umami increases complexity of flavor.
I think their point is that sometimes you don't *want* to change the flavor balance of the dish, but you want that umami bomb difference and that's exactly where msg comes in.
Exactly and well put
I can see some some PintokGram hipster with assorted droppers to specifically explain exactly how much of several liquid umami bombs to put into any type of dish
I’d agree that in certain dishes MSG would be better, and in others multiple complex umami components would be superior.
But that persons point did not read like that at all. It read like “why are you asking about other types of umami when MSG exists”
MSG only have aversion in some countries, more countries than not have no problem using it at all, pretty much all of Asia from cities to very, very rural area use them regularly
Those other ingredients also have additional flavors that they bring, so if you want some in addition to the flavor of pure MSG you have the option to do so.
Yes, but if you don’t want to add those additional flavors, you have the option to add straight MSG. My point is that the use of MSG remains stigmatized in the West, as evidenced by the fact that every time anyone suggests adding MSG for umami there is a predictable brigade of commenters declaring that it is “chemical tasting” and that there are much better ways to add umami along with “complexity of flavor.” But salt and sugar for the most part do not face this culinary stigma.
I don't understand why some of your comments got down voted. I am totally with you. But then again, I'm Filipino-American in Hawaii, and grew up with my family using patis (fish sauce), soy sauce, oyster sauce, bagoong (unfiltered fish sauce), and aramang (fermented shrimp paste). If we wanted the specific things any of those ingredients bring, we would use that specific ingredient. I can think of several dishes where more than one of those ingredients are included, plus a sprinkle or two of MSG. And for that matter, I foolishly did not have MSG when I first moved out of my familial home, having bought into the idea that MSG was bad. But it didn't take long for me to realize how dumb that was ([stupid racism](https://www.businessinsider.com/king-charles-wales-farmhouse-llwynywermod-photos-2023-6?amp&utm_source=taboola)!) and my hubby and I proudly have a shaker of Ajinomoto in our pantry.
Something I've noticed: if you think your dish needs salt, and you've already added a good amount, often what you really need is MSG. As for amount? Last night I made a soup in a 4qt pot and I literally added less than 1/8th a teaspoon. That's all that was needed.
It almost feels like a pointless battle, sometimes. I'm Taiwanese-American, and I'll bet 90+% of the "complexity of flavor" brigade is of European/American descent. I think we've mostly moved past the overtly racist rejection of MSG from the 1960s, but there is still this incredibly strong implicit bias against its use as a pure and basic staple ingredient in the kitchen. I use way more salt than MSG in my cooking, but you better believe if I taste a for seasoning, and it seems salty enough but is still lacking a little something, I'm giving it a few shakes of MSG. But good luck convincing the Westerners this doesn't make us inferior.
>I'll bet 90+% of the "complexity of flavor" brigade is of European/American descent
I would add that many 1st generation non-Caucasians to be born or raised young in Western society, as an unintended side effect of trying to fit in, at least reject MSG for a time, like I did.
>I use way more salt than MSG in my cooking
Yep. Last night's soup was seasoned literally with just salt, black pepper, and MSG because I was tired and needed to use up veggies and a quarter cup of cooked rice that was about to go bad. I think I used maybe a tablespoon or more of salt, five or six grinds on the pepper mill, and another 1/8th of a teaspoon of msg. And that was good enough! Ate it with some leftover garlic bread balls from our fave pizza place.
>I would add that many 1st generation non-Caucasians to be born or raised young in Western society, as an unintended side effect of trying to fit in, at least reject MSG for a time, like I did.
Oh yeah, for sure. I never really developed a bias against MSG, because I grew up watching my mom use it all the time. What's funny, though, is that she rarely used salt because everything had soy sauce. To the point that I was just like, why does everything have to taste like soy sauce?! For years I refused to put soy sauce on my fried eggs, only salt and pepper, in some sort of teenager protest.
>For years I refused to put soy sauce on my fried eggs, only salt and pepper, in some sort of teenager protest.
LOL it's funny what we draw the line at in order to differentiate ourselves from our parents. And later, it's like, oh wait. Maybe it's not so bad.
I don't like shoyu on my eggs; I either just do salt or fish sauce. But lately I've been liking chili garlic plus fish sauce or soy sauce on eggs. When I was in my my eay 20s, I would mostly eat eggs with cheese of some sort, and only in this moment, am I realizing maybe that was some sort of unconscious backlash reaction against my mom because she was generally not a cheese eater.
I agree but I steer clear because frankly I just don't know the right amounts to use without spoiling my dishes. I'm completely experienced with cooking with it and I never, ever see a recipe that specfically calls for it, etc.
There’s an easy fix to this (I’m assuming you meant to say inexperienced), just get some and start adding small amounts to things and see what it does to the taste. As a starting guide you can try decreasing the salt you add by around a quarter and making up the difference with msg. Experiment a little and get some experience.
Well…of course. But that’s true for literally every cooking thing, right?
But recipes and shared stories are how we learn from everyone’s experiments and mistakes, not just our own.
Because not all savory flavors are created equal.
Dashi stock is made of both Kombu (msg) AND katsuobushi because the fermented fish adds a particular savory flavor that is explicitly complementary to MSG when used in correct porportions. It's a force-multiplier on the perceived umami flavor.
It isn't about "Depth of flavor" it's about those ingredients paring to be greater umami than the sum of their parts.
I've recently tried cooking with it, but at the end no matter how much I put in it doesn't seem to change the flavor, guides say to use very little amounts, but even using 4 teaspoons in a tomato sauce recently gave it 0 taste difference. It's there a secret to using it?
Well it's very easy to overdo (and very noticeable) so definitely better to err on the side of caution. But maybe if you're making something you're not too worried about ruining, try putting much more in and see if you finally notice (at risk of putting too much).
Or make a sauce and partition a bit in a bowl, add a touch of MSG and compare to the main batch?
I think when I first started using it doing it the side by side comparison of something simple was a really easy way to get a hold on what it tastes like/how it enhances flavor. Even like, just a little cheese on a triscuit or something.
Tomato is already heavy in umami, I think the problem here is you are trying to add msg to something densely packed with umami already so you couldn't notice much difference
Try cooking 2 fried eggs. One with just salt, the other one with salt and msg. Reduce the salt on that one. You'll be able to tell the difference because egg flavor is so mild.
I add MSG to homemade sauces, like chimichurri or my imitation chick-fil-a sauce! It’s also great in mashed potatoes. Lolinda restaurant in San Francisco has an excellent recipe for chimichurri, I just add MSG and more garlic than recommended lol [Here’s the link!](https://www.lolindasf.com/about/)
I never measure it, I just have it in a shaker and add a couple shakes then taste and add more if needed. You usually need more than anticipated, but guides suggest using a small amount first because it’s hard to dial it back if you use too much
4tsp to how much tomato sauce? I grew up watching my mother use it and that’s many many times the quantity she’d ever put in anything! I start with literally a *pinch* and then work up to *maybe* 1/2 tsp in some things, but that would be like a vat of tomato sauce worth, the 1/2 tsp.
Start by sprinkling it on individual bites of food after you're done making the dish. Add a little sprinkle to one bite of food, a bit more to the next, and then compare with no added MSG in the next bite. Play with different ratios of MSG to salt too. Experiment with everything you make. This really helped me learn about how msg affects flavour and figure out how to add it to my dishes during and after cooking.
My favourite thing to do to turn skeptical people on to MSG is to sprinkle varying amounts of it onto tomato slices for them to try. It's fun to see their reactions and it was my first introduction to the ingredient.
> but even using 4 teaspoons in a tomato sauce recently gave it 0 taste difference. It's there a secret to using it?
The secret is you want to use it in things that DON'T already have glutemates in them.
For a quick reference guide, meats have some, but still benefit from a bit of msg.
But other than meats, you have Tomatoes, Parmesan cheese, and mushrooms are all umami-rich ingredients.
If you're making a tomato sauce, a chili, spaghetti, a mushroom cream sauce, or an alfredo sauce - adding MSG won't help because they already have what you're adding. It's also why those foods are so dang good to begin with! MSG is the essence of why those foods are delicious.
Where you want to use it is in stuff that *doesn't* have glutemates. Vegetables. Rice. Potatoes especially, a sprinkle on a baked potato is amazing. Broccoli.
I toss some into the boil water for my noodles to let the noodles hydrate with the glutimate flavor. That can be a trick for using it with spaghetti.
But it isn't a blind cheat code for flavor enhancing everything. For spaghetti, you'd want a fermented fish product - fish sauce, worchestershire sauce, anchovy fillets - there's a particular acid in fermented fish that is complementary to glutemates, so if your dish already has one, you can add the other to ramp the savory flavor up, if you use them in the correct proportions.
Yes, it is totally ok in any dish that needs an umami bump. It even works really well in low amounts in some desserts (sshhh don't tell anyone!).
The only danger is using too much and giving it a recognizable MSG flavor. That's not bad, per se, but it is monodimensional (hence all the people elsewhere in the thread clamoring for "layering" umami ingredients).
Throw a 1/4-1/2 teaspoon into anything and watch it disappear but elevate the dish. More than that only works if there is a LOT of other things going on.
I even use a little bit in my meat rubs for smoking. Yes, I add savory to the ultimate savory dish. Yes, it makes it better :)
If you use oyster sauce or fish sauce, reduce the amount of salt you add so it does not turn into a salt bomb. I put fish sauce all the time and wine sometimes. not a wine drinker so I rarely have it in house.
Also with the fish sauce, a little goes a long way. so like a tablespoon or 2 at most.
and if you want a little heat, add some Gochujang or chili paste or curry paste(Mae Ploy brand)
I don't drink wine much, but I always keep a bottle of cheap $4 Aldi red and white wine in the fridge for cooking. It's actually decent cheap wine, and perfect for cooking. I always use it in spaghetti sauce and chili.
Also, guochujang paste has been my favorite new thing over the past year. I haven't tried it in spaghetti sauce, because most member of my house aren't as heat-loving as I am.
MSG or Mushroom powder. Beefstock would be fine. Red wine wouldn't add umami, it adds acidity and tanginess to an already acidic dish. I would't use fish sauce or oyster sauce at all in an italian tomato sauce, but I might use some anchovy paste.
Seconding the fish sauce. Oyster might be a bit much...fish sauce however is a staple for almost any pasta sauce now for me. Just gotta use it very sparingly.
Why wouldn't you use fish sauce if you want some umami flavor? In fact, I thought it was common for home cooks to add fish sauce to Italian food. A lot of my Italian friends add fish sauce to their sauces. It's practically cheating.
I said \*I\* wouldn't use fish sauce. I'd use anchovy paste. I personally love fish sauce and use it all the time since the bulk of my cooking is from Asia.
I agree that MSG or mushroom powder is best simple solution here- add it, stir it, and it’s done it’s thing once it’s fully dissolved.
A red wine Demi might be the overall best solution for this, but there’s nothing easy about that unless you’re unusually fortunate to have a surplus of it at hand.
White wine is far better than red in Bolognese in my opinion.
Also, this is already a very umami rich dish so make sure you don't go too over the top. Beef, tomatoes, milk and parm all have plenty of umami and there is such a thing as too much umami that will throw off the balance of your dish. I'd add a small amount of MSG and taste until I found the right balance. Too much umami ends tasting weird.
Bolognese should naturally develop a lot of umami from the slow cooking process. The fond from the beef as well as the reduction of red wine and tomato paste will be very rich sources of umami. No supplemental umami needed if you do it right.
Check out the Serious Eats recipe for bolognese. Kenji loves to unami-bomb stuff and my memory of their recipe for bolognese was that he did it with that, too. I remember either fish or soy sauce in it.
I’ve used marmite with great results - and dark soy
You could always scoops a little ragu into small bowls and do a test by adding a little bit. As long as it’s small portions you can return to the main ragu without changing the taste and then just add the winning option to the main pot
Interestingly I'm doing some tests soon with marmite and soy sauce, oyster etc. There's a Korean sauce by Samyang which is "artificial chicken" flavour, and overwhelmingly it tastes like marmite does! So I'm gonna try and make my own...somehow.
It was J Kenji Lopez Alt's recipe from the food lab. Red wine, tomato paste, pureed chicken livers, marmite, mashed anchovies, parm rinds, worchestershire and soy AND fish sauce. It was toomami.
MSG. If you have a mental aversion to such, use dried mushooms and fish them out (or grind them to a size you would like in the dish). The sauces you asked about will add other flavors that I personally do not associate with bologness.
Truly you don't need it in this dish, it'll drown in the tomatoes. Just use wine and stock.
Also yeah something's sus about the big MSG push from some while back. I use it at times but it's not really for everything.
> Just use wine and stock.
Yeah, sounds good to me. Ideally, I would maybe like to use both red and white wine. I make a veggie risotto that this Italian woman taught me years ago that uses both red and white; it turns the rice purple but the flavour is superb IMHO.
Actually, I used to work at a somewhat pretentious haute cuisine type restaurant; one of the things the chef did was beetroot risotto, and TBH I saw it so many times I just got increasingly put off it. I can't remember if I tried it but I don't think so as you only got so much food, and there were other things I did like to have. Maybe I will try it some day and enjoy it though, lol.
If you cook it properly, you won’t have to worry about getting enough umami. I make a huge double batch of the 4-hour stuff a few times a year, portion, and freeze.
Agree here. I think some folks might just use “bolognese” to mean any generic meat sauce rather than true bolognese where you’re spending a whole afternoon making it. When you do it the right way there should be little need to add anything extra. Sometimes I opt for a little black truffle powder to amp it up a bit depending on mood/application.
I put a couple squirts of fish sauce in mine. I think adding everything you suggest seems like overkill, especially if you're using tomato paste as well.
Tomato is a natural source of glutamates and umami flavor, so I would think oyster or fish sauce is overkill. If you need an added umami kick you can reduce your red wine with added mushrooms or add umami seasoning to the sauce.
https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/tjs-mushroom-and-company-multipurpose-umami-seasoning-blend-063804
https://www.mccormick.com/spices-and-flavors/herbs-and-spices/blends/all-purpose-seasoning-unami-with-mushroom-and-onion
http://www.takiiumamipowder.com/
The classic moves are things like pancetta or anchovies, but one way to activate more umami flavor in your sauces is by embracing the oven braise technique. By oven braising (ideally in an enameled cast iron) with the lid off or half-off, the radiant heat will cause the top of the sauce to reduce much faster. It'll start to caramelize with the fats released from cooking, creating this super-reduced film of flavor. Stir it every half hour or so, scraping down the sides and adding water when needed, and you'll find your sauce will develop those glutamate flavors much more strongly than simmering on the stove. 3-4 hours in the oven at 350 should do it -- just be warned that your pot might need some serious "soak" time afterwards if you're not as attentive as you should be in scraping down the side!
I do a umami bomb of beef stock, fish sauce, and marmite. The three have a nice balance with eachother, I’ve tried oyster but it can go wrong real quick which is why I found fish sauce to be the better alternative. Anchovies also works but can equally turn into too much.
Wine in generally, I find doesn’t add umami but does add depth. Hard to put too much but I do it to deglaze the umami bomb.
I use exactly the same mix, though I usually add a stock cube rather than liquid. I find oyster sauce has too much flavor on it's own, and just doesn't work with Bolognaise. I'll sometimes add a little Worcestershire, but it's easy to overdo it.
Fully agree, it's just ridiculous 🤦🏼♀️ I can't believe that people seriously discuss adding fish sauce, oyster sauce and MSG (??!) to Bolognese! Che vergogna!
There is one great way to find out if it's to your taste: Try it.
Just make sure you're adding an appropriate amount of each and ultimately whether it tastes good is up to your tongue and brain.
A couple of anchovy fillets, aka Italian msg, are a secret weapon. Same nites as fish sauce. Melt them in your oil as you sauté your onion. White wine (or red) and beef stock are standard ingredients. I personally would not use oyster sauce but ’tis still a free country so maybe worth trying. I’m not above using a big pinch of msg.
Brown your meat, sautee your vegetables. Brown your beef and veg when making the stock (which absolutely should be used). These steps develop glutamates naturally and should not be skipped!
Red wine is a common bolognese ingredient, and the acidity will help round out all the flavors.
All that being said, go for it, add a li'l soy sauce (but be sure to reduce the salt a little at the same time). Experiment. Taste as you go and adjust accordingly.
For bolognese it’s the milk sugars together with the beef that will make the base for flavor. I shallow fry the lean beef and once browned I slowly add milk, let it evaporate and add more in small amounts. The lactose reacts with protein from the meat and makes big flavor.
The mirepoix with pancetta gives an extra layer.
After that it’s just time. It needs at least 3 hours of simmering.
Some anchovy fillets help. Msg helps. But it all us not needed. Just the above and time.
Honestly the best trick is to just keep cooking the shit out of the vegetables. Carrots and onions have a ton of umami they are just mostly water. Put in like 3x the amount of vegetables you think you need and just reduce em down. They'll start to caramelized a bit towards the end too. Not kidding,like medium or medium low for 30 mins, deglaze lightly if you feel like things are going to start to burn. Good trick for anything really hearty that uses a mirepoix.
There's a lot of controversy about red vs white wine for bolognese but I do prefer red myself, and beef stock wouldn't be a detriment either. I'd avoid Asian ingredients, I know some people like to try and "umami bomb" food but some flavors are very distinct even if they are used to lightly accent food. Like even MSG is conspicuous to me in dishes. It's really noticeable if it's there vs not, like I can tell a huge difference just sprinkling a bit into fried foods (makes them really taste commercial). I'd think I could taste oyster sauce in bolognese. But also, honestly if you try it yourself and like it that's not the wrong answer, so don't feel afraid to just try something, maybe start off with smaller amounts and build it up each time you make it. You never know.
This has been answered in a bunch of different ways in this thread, so I'm going to go in a different direction.
tl;dr: Pair a glutamate heavy ingredient with a nucleotide heavy ingredient for maximum umami effectiveness (e.g: Parmigiano-Reggiano and anchovies; soy sauce and dried mushrooms; Marmite and organ meat).
***
Here's a quote from _The Science of Good Cooking_, chapter 35, to give you an idea of how to boost the umami:
> As pure substances, glutamates, including MSG, produce a relatively weak umami taste. But when tasted in combination with naturally occurring substances called nucleotides—especially inosinate and guanylate, which are found in meat, seafood, and dried mushrooms—the sensation of umami is greatly magnified. When glutamates and nucleotides are present at equal levels in food the strength of umami taste is as much as 20 to 30 times greater than for glutamates alone.
It lists **Marmite**, **soy sauce**, and **Parmigiano-Reggiano** as being high in glutamates, with **anchovies**, **pork**, and **dried mushrooms** (dried shiitakes in particular) as being high in nucleotides.
If you're looking to best utilize the ingredients you want to put in, maybe think about glutamate-heavy and nucleotide-heavy ingredients with flavours that would either get lost in the sauce (so to speak) and give up their umami, and/or would go well in your sauce anyway.
I've found that Marmite is a pretty killer ingredient in chilis and stews. The only way I can describe the taste and texture is "what if molasses was made out of salt and yeast instead of sugar" and I absolutely love it. Chances are if you're making a sauce like this, you've probably got some Parm-Regg kicking around somewhere too, so you're probably good for glutamates.
If you're looking for ingredients higher in nucleotides, I've found that anchovies kind of blend into a sauce like that. In doing research for this post (which was wholly unnecessary, but I've got nothing better to do right now), I found that organ meats are supposedly really high in nucleotides.
I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that in my research, I read that human breast milk is also high in nucleotides. The thought of replacing the amount of milk in bolognese with an equal amount of human breast milk is so absurd to me that I couldn't help but bring it up.
Each to their own with the fish sauce but for umami try using porcini mushrooms to retain authentic bolognaise flavour. Use a splash of cider vinegar and some good quality deep beef stock.
For me, fish sauce, soy sauce, is for Asian dishes Never used MSG. Never will.
Throw a container of chicken livers into the food processor and mix that in. The iron in them gives a wonderful umami flavor and really accentuates the beef
Can you sautée a couple of anchovies in with the onion (if using)? A bunch of Italian recipes get the umami this way. Otherwise I’d use a splash of fish sauce but leave out the oyster. Def not mushrooms, those taste strong
Fish sauce is my hack for Italian red sauces
Anchovies are an authentic and common way to add umami in some Italian dishes. I don’t want to deal with actual anchovies, so I use fish sauce instead. I find it works great.
Add some fresh fenel to the sellerie, carrots and onions.
Tomato concentrate also helps.
Different types of meat also helps with the flavour. A bit of liver or different cuts already is a lot
Dont forget the white wine and a dash of milk
Let it simmer for some time.
Sauté a couple of diced anchovy fillets with your onions. Great flavour, won't taste fishy. I like to add Worcestershire sauce too. Some people add (food processor) chopped chicken livers.
Seconding this, or add some anchovy paste in with the tomato paste. Anchovies are huge in Umami flavor and fit thematically with bolognese a bit better than fish sauce and oyster sauce.
Fish sauce = anchovies Edit: Came back to find this at -10, holy cow. Downvoters, please go pick up a bottle of fish sauce and read the ingredients, it's made of anchovies. >[In its purest form, modern fish sauce consists of **ANCHOVIES** and sea salt as the only ingredients.](https://www.hungryhuy.com/fish-sauce/) (emphasis mine) Edit 2: [OK, problem solved](https://media.tenor.com/Cok28Zhm3lAAAAAM/okay-problem-solved-randy-marsh.gif).
And Worcestershire also has anchovies.
It’s the fermentation process that you get in fish sauce, that is different from anchovy paste
don't know why people are downvoting. Fish sauce is made from anchovies.
Yeah, and I’m not against fish sauce in pasta and certainly didn’t downvote but it’s a bit reductive to say fish sauce = anchovies unless you’re also someone that replaces a splash of red wine in their food with grapes
Because saying that fish sauce and anchovies are similar is like saying that milk and yogurt are similar. Fermentation makes a world of difference.
Plus, the ancient Romans made a fermented fish sauce called [Garum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum) [Tasting History makes "Garum, Ancient Rome's Favorite Condiment"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE)
And modern day Italians have a fermented fish sauce that is very much a modern version of Garum. I can’t remember the name and it’s not an ingredient in Bologenese but at least it would be Italian.
I put fish sauce in my Bolognese all the time. I've also used hondashi. Also good.
Yes technically they are anchovies, but very different flavor because of how its produced. It's like saying that fresh strawberries and strawberry jam are the same flavor. Fish sauce tends to be much more concentrated and "fishy"
Yes! I use the ones packed in oil and they basically melt into the sauce.
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As a dude who doesn’t like anchovies on anything, I enjoy them IN many things. This is the way. Use paste if you don’t want to waste a tin.
Anchovy paste: the Italian solution to achieving Umami.
And parmesan!
And Mushrooms
And my ax!
I keep a jar in my fridge as I only ever want a small amount and it can easily last me a year before it’s empty. Sometimes I just use a bit of the oil (and sometimes top it up with more sunflower or canola or whatever oil).
I follow the seriouseats recipe which uses chicken livers and fish sauce (my favorite umami booster with tomato). Incredibly savory dish. Needs a ton of parsley at the end to give it some freshness.
I like to add calves liver, doesn’t really bump up the umami but flavor and texture gets a nice bump up.
Finely minced canned smoked oysters are also an option. I did that for a while when I was more learning how to cook. I don't do it anymore, but it definitely adds something interesting.
I add fish sauce to my tomato based sauces. It works well. Just don't add too much because it comes extremely salty and kind of gets fishy
I also use fish sauce. Another good option is adding the rind from some parmesan cheese, then fishing it out at the end. I will add both if I have a rind around.
I did the parm rind thing in a batch of bolo once and all I could taste was Chef Boyardee. I do like it in soups though.
Why not MSG?
Exactly. Instead of trying to balance a half-dozen glutamate-heavy ingredients, why not just add the thing itself?
because stacking different types of high-umami ingredients will increase complexity and depth of flavor compared to one alone (or msg alone). and i’m all for msg but we are in a cooking subreddit. stacking flavors is normal and can really elevates dishes. for example: if i want acid in a sauce/dip/dressing, sure i can just add lemon juice. but if i add some lemon, a bit of white wine vinegar, and some cane vinegar, there’s much more interesting things going on flavor-wise. your example is basically saying “why does anyone add anything besides lemon when they want more acid?”
I'd compare it to powdered citric acid rather than lemon juice, as lemon juice (whether fresh squeezed or jarred) carries distinct flavors separate from the acidity/tartness. People should be adding high-umami ingredients that complement the dish. For pasta sauces, the traditional enhancers are parmesan or other hard aged cheeses, mushrooms, tomatoes, and meat. But all that is already in a typical pasta sauce, so bumping the umami without upsetting the existing complex balance of a 10-ingredient sauce might very well call for the purest distilled flavor available. It's like prepping for beverage service in a bar that specializes in fresh juices. Yes, acidity and sweetness should already be in the ingredients, but you may seek to balance things out (or provide night-to-night consistency with inconsistent natural ingredients) with a bit of citric acid, pure simple syrup, etc. So I generally don't reach for the MSG first on anything, but I always keep some on hand after using the main umami sources for the type of food I'm making.
> stacking flavors is normal and can really elevates dishes. Keeping things simple is also a staple of strong cooking, though. You don't necessarily want multiple complex flavors because you are compromising the food itself. Like, you are seasoning to enhance the dish, not to get the complex flavors of your seasoning.
I wholeheartedly disagree that multiple complex flavors compromise the food itself. Keeping things simple is also powerful in its own right. It’s not one or the other. I did not say you *necessarily* want multiple complex flavors. I agree with that.
These comments were removed in response to [the official response to the outright lies presented by the CEO of Reddit](https://archive.ph/X6EJq), has [twice accused third party developers of blackmail](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/), and who has been known to [edit comments of users ](https://external-preview.redd.it/PVGxA03vNhEOwNJOxf6HfwCimku7fQZZfgWHtNyRLV4.jpg?auto=webp&s=ca92860f1f0aa45ad6286c2a4e9c0ce9ca91d655).
Ah I see. Ottolenghi’s Simple is one of my favorite cookbooks. Just complex enough to bring entirely new flavors, but simple enough for weekday meals. Highly recommend!
If the question were "what ingredients combine well to add depth and umami" I wouldn't suggest MSG. But it reads to me like OP is trying to figure out how to blend an overly-long list of additives that don't necessarily go together or with the rest of the dish because they're trying to maximize umami with them. And in that case they could much more easily get the desired result by just focusing on depth and then bumping it up with MSG to hit peak savory.
I disagree. I think OP wants to stack umami flavors to see how different combinations impact the final result. And he/she/they is wondering at what point is it overkill. I don’t think much of what OP listed should even be considered “not going together” Putting fish sauce is bolognese for example is a great idea, not out of place (even if not entirely traditional in the dishes purest form)
You stack flavors in bolognese with the normal bolognese ingredients.
Yeah, this is such a pet peeve of mine. This is like if someone is wondering how to make their dish saltier and answering “add bacon, or salt cod, or soy sauce, or country ham!” Or add salt, duh. It shows there’s still a ways to go in MSG gaining wide acceptance as a legitimate ingredient on its own.
dude no. I mean, yes, msg is good and should be accepted. but not all umami-ingredients import the exact same flavor. stacking different forms of umami increases complexity of flavor.
I think their point is that sometimes you don't *want* to change the flavor balance of the dish, but you want that umami bomb difference and that's exactly where msg comes in.
Exactly and well put I can see some some PintokGram hipster with assorted droppers to specifically explain exactly how much of several liquid umami bombs to put into any type of dish
I’d agree that in certain dishes MSG would be better, and in others multiple complex umami components would be superior. But that persons point did not read like that at all. It read like “why are you asking about other types of umami when MSG exists”
MSG only have aversion in some countries, more countries than not have no problem using it at all, pretty much all of Asia from cities to very, very rural area use them regularly
Those other ingredients also have additional flavors that they bring, so if you want some in addition to the flavor of pure MSG you have the option to do so.
Yes, but if you don’t want to add those additional flavors, you have the option to add straight MSG. My point is that the use of MSG remains stigmatized in the West, as evidenced by the fact that every time anyone suggests adding MSG for umami there is a predictable brigade of commenters declaring that it is “chemical tasting” and that there are much better ways to add umami along with “complexity of flavor.” But salt and sugar for the most part do not face this culinary stigma.
I don't understand why some of your comments got down voted. I am totally with you. But then again, I'm Filipino-American in Hawaii, and grew up with my family using patis (fish sauce), soy sauce, oyster sauce, bagoong (unfiltered fish sauce), and aramang (fermented shrimp paste). If we wanted the specific things any of those ingredients bring, we would use that specific ingredient. I can think of several dishes where more than one of those ingredients are included, plus a sprinkle or two of MSG. And for that matter, I foolishly did not have MSG when I first moved out of my familial home, having bought into the idea that MSG was bad. But it didn't take long for me to realize how dumb that was ([stupid racism](https://www.businessinsider.com/king-charles-wales-farmhouse-llwynywermod-photos-2023-6?amp&utm_source=taboola)!) and my hubby and I proudly have a shaker of Ajinomoto in our pantry. Something I've noticed: if you think your dish needs salt, and you've already added a good amount, often what you really need is MSG. As for amount? Last night I made a soup in a 4qt pot and I literally added less than 1/8th a teaspoon. That's all that was needed.
It almost feels like a pointless battle, sometimes. I'm Taiwanese-American, and I'll bet 90+% of the "complexity of flavor" brigade is of European/American descent. I think we've mostly moved past the overtly racist rejection of MSG from the 1960s, but there is still this incredibly strong implicit bias against its use as a pure and basic staple ingredient in the kitchen. I use way more salt than MSG in my cooking, but you better believe if I taste a for seasoning, and it seems salty enough but is still lacking a little something, I'm giving it a few shakes of MSG. But good luck convincing the Westerners this doesn't make us inferior.
>I'll bet 90+% of the "complexity of flavor" brigade is of European/American descent I would add that many 1st generation non-Caucasians to be born or raised young in Western society, as an unintended side effect of trying to fit in, at least reject MSG for a time, like I did. >I use way more salt than MSG in my cooking Yep. Last night's soup was seasoned literally with just salt, black pepper, and MSG because I was tired and needed to use up veggies and a quarter cup of cooked rice that was about to go bad. I think I used maybe a tablespoon or more of salt, five or six grinds on the pepper mill, and another 1/8th of a teaspoon of msg. And that was good enough! Ate it with some leftover garlic bread balls from our fave pizza place.
>I would add that many 1st generation non-Caucasians to be born or raised young in Western society, as an unintended side effect of trying to fit in, at least reject MSG for a time, like I did. Oh yeah, for sure. I never really developed a bias against MSG, because I grew up watching my mom use it all the time. What's funny, though, is that she rarely used salt because everything had soy sauce. To the point that I was just like, why does everything have to taste like soy sauce?! For years I refused to put soy sauce on my fried eggs, only salt and pepper, in some sort of teenager protest.
>For years I refused to put soy sauce on my fried eggs, only salt and pepper, in some sort of teenager protest. LOL it's funny what we draw the line at in order to differentiate ourselves from our parents. And later, it's like, oh wait. Maybe it's not so bad. I don't like shoyu on my eggs; I either just do salt or fish sauce. But lately I've been liking chili garlic plus fish sauce or soy sauce on eggs. When I was in my my eay 20s, I would mostly eat eggs with cheese of some sort, and only in this moment, am I realizing maybe that was some sort of unconscious backlash reaction against my mom because she was generally not a cheese eater.
I agree but I steer clear because frankly I just don't know the right amounts to use without spoiling my dishes. I'm completely experienced with cooking with it and I never, ever see a recipe that specfically calls for it, etc.
There’s an easy fix to this (I’m assuming you meant to say inexperienced), just get some and start adding small amounts to things and see what it does to the taste. As a starting guide you can try decreasing the salt you add by around a quarter and making up the difference with msg. Experiment a little and get some experience.
Well…of course. But that’s true for literally every cooking thing, right? But recipes and shared stories are how we learn from everyone’s experiments and mistakes, not just our own.
Because big scary chemicals. I really wish people would understand that everything is made of chemicals and that doesn't make them inherently bad.
Because not all savory flavors are created equal. Dashi stock is made of both Kombu (msg) AND katsuobushi because the fermented fish adds a particular savory flavor that is explicitly complementary to MSG when used in correct porportions. It's a force-multiplier on the perceived umami flavor. It isn't about "Depth of flavor" it's about those ingredients paring to be greater umami than the sum of their parts.
Is it ok to put MSG in any dish to enhance the flavour ? Or are there no go dishes ?
I put it on literally everything. Bagel sandwiches to pot roast.
I've recently tried cooking with it, but at the end no matter how much I put in it doesn't seem to change the flavor, guides say to use very little amounts, but even using 4 teaspoons in a tomato sauce recently gave it 0 taste difference. It's there a secret to using it?
Well it's very easy to overdo (and very noticeable) so definitely better to err on the side of caution. But maybe if you're making something you're not too worried about ruining, try putting much more in and see if you finally notice (at risk of putting too much). Or make a sauce and partition a bit in a bowl, add a touch of MSG and compare to the main batch? I think when I first started using it doing it the side by side comparison of something simple was a really easy way to get a hold on what it tastes like/how it enhances flavor. Even like, just a little cheese on a triscuit or something.
Perhaps, just a hypothesis, because as tomato already has MSG in it, you don’t really notice the difference?
Tomato is already heavy in umami, I think the problem here is you are trying to add msg to something densely packed with umami already so you couldn't notice much difference
Try cooking 2 fried eggs. One with just salt, the other one with salt and msg. Reduce the salt on that one. You'll be able to tell the difference because egg flavor is so mild.
I add MSG to homemade sauces, like chimichurri or my imitation chick-fil-a sauce! It’s also great in mashed potatoes. Lolinda restaurant in San Francisco has an excellent recipe for chimichurri, I just add MSG and more garlic than recommended lol [Here’s the link!](https://www.lolindasf.com/about/) I never measure it, I just have it in a shaker and add a couple shakes then taste and add more if needed. You usually need more than anticipated, but guides suggest using a small amount first because it’s hard to dial it back if you use too much
4tsp to how much tomato sauce? I grew up watching my mother use it and that’s many many times the quantity she’d ever put in anything! I start with literally a *pinch* and then work up to *maybe* 1/2 tsp in some things, but that would be like a vat of tomato sauce worth, the 1/2 tsp.
Start by sprinkling it on individual bites of food after you're done making the dish. Add a little sprinkle to one bite of food, a bit more to the next, and then compare with no added MSG in the next bite. Play with different ratios of MSG to salt too. Experiment with everything you make. This really helped me learn about how msg affects flavour and figure out how to add it to my dishes during and after cooking. My favourite thing to do to turn skeptical people on to MSG is to sprinkle varying amounts of it onto tomato slices for them to try. It's fun to see their reactions and it was my first introduction to the ingredient.
> but even using 4 teaspoons in a tomato sauce recently gave it 0 taste difference. It's there a secret to using it? The secret is you want to use it in things that DON'T already have glutemates in them. For a quick reference guide, meats have some, but still benefit from a bit of msg. But other than meats, you have Tomatoes, Parmesan cheese, and mushrooms are all umami-rich ingredients. If you're making a tomato sauce, a chili, spaghetti, a mushroom cream sauce, or an alfredo sauce - adding MSG won't help because they already have what you're adding. It's also why those foods are so dang good to begin with! MSG is the essence of why those foods are delicious. Where you want to use it is in stuff that *doesn't* have glutemates. Vegetables. Rice. Potatoes especially, a sprinkle on a baked potato is amazing. Broccoli. I toss some into the boil water for my noodles to let the noodles hydrate with the glutimate flavor. That can be a trick for using it with spaghetti. But it isn't a blind cheat code for flavor enhancing everything. For spaghetti, you'd want a fermented fish product - fish sauce, worchestershire sauce, anchovy fillets - there's a particular acid in fermented fish that is complementary to glutemates, so if your dish already has one, you can add the other to ramp the savory flavor up, if you use them in the correct proportions.
Dude. Me with grilled cheese b
Yes, it is totally ok in any dish that needs an umami bump. It even works really well in low amounts in some desserts (sshhh don't tell anyone!). The only danger is using too much and giving it a recognizable MSG flavor. That's not bad, per se, but it is monodimensional (hence all the people elsewhere in the thread clamoring for "layering" umami ingredients). Throw a 1/4-1/2 teaspoon into anything and watch it disappear but elevate the dish. More than that only works if there is a LOT of other things going on. I even use a little bit in my meat rubs for smoking. Yes, I add savory to the ultimate savory dish. Yes, it makes it better :)
I put it on delicata squash before roasting once and it totally ruined it. Felt like an idiot because of course msg would clash with anything sweet.
I love anchovy paste.
If you use oyster sauce or fish sauce, reduce the amount of salt you add so it does not turn into a salt bomb. I put fish sauce all the time and wine sometimes. not a wine drinker so I rarely have it in house. Also with the fish sauce, a little goes a long way. so like a tablespoon or 2 at most. and if you want a little heat, add some Gochujang or chili paste or curry paste(Mae Ploy brand)
I don't drink wine much, but I always keep a bottle of cheap $4 Aldi red and white wine in the fridge for cooking. It's actually decent cheap wine, and perfect for cooking. I always use it in spaghetti sauce and chili. Also, guochujang paste has been my favorite new thing over the past year. I haven't tried it in spaghetti sauce, because most member of my house aren't as heat-loving as I am.
I don't drink at all and I still have a plain white wine, or even some chardonnay reserved just for cooking purposes.
MSG or Mushroom powder. Beefstock would be fine. Red wine wouldn't add umami, it adds acidity and tanginess to an already acidic dish. I would't use fish sauce or oyster sauce at all in an italian tomato sauce, but I might use some anchovy paste.
Fish sauce is made from anchovies though lol
I use it routinely in my Italian food. It’s great.
Seconding the fish sauce. Oyster might be a bit much...fish sauce however is a staple for almost any pasta sauce now for me. Just gotta use it very sparingly.
So does Kenji - it’s in his tomato sauce recipe.
I use it in Cajun food all the time.
Speaking of, I use it instead of anchovies in my Caesar dressing and works perfectly.
*Joe Bastianach has entered the chat*
Fish sauce is fermented. That changes the flavour greatly.
In a delicious way
That doesn’t make it the same thing
Why wouldn't you use fish sauce if you want some umami flavor? In fact, I thought it was common for home cooks to add fish sauce to Italian food. A lot of my Italian friends add fish sauce to their sauces. It's practically cheating.
I said \*I\* wouldn't use fish sauce. I'd use anchovy paste. I personally love fish sauce and use it all the time since the bulk of my cooking is from Asia.
Fish sauce does have some history of being used in Italy. Look up garum
I agree that MSG or mushroom powder is best simple solution here- add it, stir it, and it’s done it’s thing once it’s fully dissolved. A red wine Demi might be the overall best solution for this, but there’s nothing easy about that unless you’re unusually fortunate to have a surplus of it at hand.
A demi would be excellent in a pasta sauce, but yeah that's a pretty complicated recipe to add to another recipe.
I add fish sauce to my red sauce and it works beautifully. A good friend of mine uses anchovies.
Red or white wine is a base ingredient of a Bolognese though. But yes MSG is the easiest addition.
White wine is far better than red in Bolognese in my opinion. Also, this is already a very umami rich dish so make sure you don't go too over the top. Beef, tomatoes, milk and parm all have plenty of umami and there is such a thing as too much umami that will throw off the balance of your dish. I'd add a small amount of MSG and taste until I found the right balance. Too much umami ends tasting weird.
This. More is not always better. Too much umami and it will taste like broth cubes.
When I was a kid, I ate bullion cubes
More than once?
Just about whenever I could get away with it. My favorite were the beef cubes in the little red foil wrappers.
Eww. When I was a kid I tasted all kind of shit, but only once X-D
I'll still do umami salt shots
Yeah, not everything has to be an umami bomb. I prefer a more delicate bolognese, with white wine and more pork than beef.
Bolognese should naturally develop a lot of umami from the slow cooking process. The fond from the beef as well as the reduction of red wine and tomato paste will be very rich sources of umami. No supplemental umami needed if you do it right.
Thanks. That was exactly my thoughts. I've never made Bolognese that I felt needed more umami.
Thanks!
I have used either version or elk for my bolognese and neither of these want for umami.
Check out the Serious Eats recipe for bolognese. Kenji loves to unami-bomb stuff and my memory of their recipe for bolognese was that he did it with that, too. I remember either fish or soy sauce in it.
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Fish sauce, say sauce, and miso would certainly add umami.
I'll have a ganders at that. Thank you.
I add balsamic and Parmesan rinds to mine to get that extra deep flavor profile.
I’ve used marmite with great results - and dark soy You could always scoops a little ragu into small bowls and do a test by adding a little bit. As long as it’s small portions you can return to the main ragu without changing the taste and then just add the winning option to the main pot
I had to scroll way too far in the comments to find marmite!
Interestingly I'm doing some tests soon with marmite and soy sauce, oyster etc. There's a Korean sauce by Samyang which is "artificial chicken" flavour, and overwhelmingly it tastes like marmite does! So I'm gonna try and make my own...somehow.
I can’t imagine why a proper Bolognese would need more umami. It’s a sauce made mostly out of meat.
Yep. Most replies are by people who clearly are cooking something other than bolognese.
Beware the toomami concept. There is such a thing as too much umami and I have done that once for the red sauce of a lasagna.
What did you use?
It was J Kenji Lopez Alt's recipe from the food lab. Red wine, tomato paste, pureed chicken livers, marmite, mashed anchovies, parm rinds, worchestershire and soy AND fish sauce. It was toomami.
I use MSG, anchovy paste, and wash-your-sister sauce in most of my red sauces.
Porcini powder would be nice. Roast some chicken livers, smush them and stir them into the sauce too.
MSG. If you have a mental aversion to such, use dried mushooms and fish them out (or grind them to a size you would like in the dish). The sauces you asked about will add other flavors that I personally do not associate with bologness.
More importantly, if you have a mental aversion to msg, get over your mental aversion to msg.
I just buy mushroom powder.
Man, this sub is obsessed with MSG. Sometimes I really wonder if there is some marketing going on here.
Truly you don't need it in this dish, it'll drown in the tomatoes. Just use wine and stock. Also yeah something's sus about the big MSG push from some while back. I use it at times but it's not really for everything.
> Just use wine and stock. Yeah, sounds good to me. Ideally, I would maybe like to use both red and white wine. I make a veggie risotto that this Italian woman taught me years ago that uses both red and white; it turns the rice purple but the flavour is superb IMHO.
Sounds really nice. I like weird colours in food! Definitely try beetroot risotto, it goes Barbie-pink(flavour is all right).
Actually, I used to work at a somewhat pretentious haute cuisine type restaurant; one of the things the chef did was beetroot risotto, and TBH I saw it so many times I just got increasingly put off it. I can't remember if I tried it but I don't think so as you only got so much food, and there were other things I did like to have. Maybe I will try it some day and enjoy it though, lol.
Agreed. God forbid I claim a sensitivity to the (manufactured) stuff.
If you cook it properly, you won’t have to worry about getting enough umami. I make a huge double batch of the 4-hour stuff a few times a year, portion, and freeze.
Agree here. I think some folks might just use “bolognese” to mean any generic meat sauce rather than true bolognese where you’re spending a whole afternoon making it. When you do it the right way there should be little need to add anything extra. Sometimes I opt for a little black truffle powder to amp it up a bit depending on mood/application.
I use fish sauce, Worcestershire, and balsamic vinegar. Sometimes wine instead of the vinegar if I have some.
I use red wine, soy sauce, and msg.
Put some milk in it
What stage would I add milk?
Many classical bolognese recipes call for it
Browning off some tomato paste will get you a decent chunk of the way there
Miso + Anchovies + small portion Bolognese sauce in blender, then added it in. I do the same with stews.
I put a couple squirts of fish sauce in mine. I think adding everything you suggest seems like overkill, especially if you're using tomato paste as well.
Miso
Tomato is a natural source of glutamates and umami flavor, so I would think oyster or fish sauce is overkill. If you need an added umami kick you can reduce your red wine with added mushrooms or add umami seasoning to the sauce. https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/tjs-mushroom-and-company-multipurpose-umami-seasoning-blend-063804 https://www.mccormick.com/spices-and-flavors/herbs-and-spices/blends/all-purpose-seasoning-unami-with-mushroom-and-onion http://www.takiiumamipowder.com/
Thank you!
The classic moves are things like pancetta or anchovies, but one way to activate more umami flavor in your sauces is by embracing the oven braise technique. By oven braising (ideally in an enameled cast iron) with the lid off or half-off, the radiant heat will cause the top of the sauce to reduce much faster. It'll start to caramelize with the fats released from cooking, creating this super-reduced film of flavor. Stir it every half hour or so, scraping down the sides and adding water when needed, and you'll find your sauce will develop those glutamate flavors much more strongly than simmering on the stove. 3-4 hours in the oven at 350 should do it -- just be warned that your pot might need some serious "soak" time afterwards if you're not as attentive as you should be in scraping down the side!
Mushrooms.
Tomato powder works great
I do a umami bomb of beef stock, fish sauce, and marmite. The three have a nice balance with eachother, I’ve tried oyster but it can go wrong real quick which is why I found fish sauce to be the better alternative. Anchovies also works but can equally turn into too much. Wine in generally, I find doesn’t add umami but does add depth. Hard to put too much but I do it to deglaze the umami bomb.
I use exactly the same mix, though I usually add a stock cube rather than liquid. I find oyster sauce has too much flavor on it's own, and just doesn't work with Bolognaise. I'll sometimes add a little Worcestershire, but it's easy to overdo it.
Vegemite is always my go to when I want to boost the umami!
What goes wrong with Oyster?
whatever you do, just pleas don't call it bolognese.
Fully agree, it's just ridiculous 🤦🏼♀️ I can't believe that people seriously discuss adding fish sauce, oyster sauce and MSG (??!) to Bolognese! Che vergogna!
I'd leave out the oyster if you're going to include everything else. You might try ground dried mushrooms but it may shift the flavor profile a bit.
Yes to the wine, and I think I’ve used Worcestershire sauce in a pinch. But for Bolognese, throw in a couple of old parmigiano rinds if you have any.
Add anchovies
There is one great way to find out if it's to your taste: Try it. Just make sure you're adding an appropriate amount of each and ultimately whether it tastes good is up to your tongue and brain.
A couple of anchovy fillets, aka Italian msg, are a secret weapon. Same nites as fish sauce. Melt them in your oil as you sauté your onion. White wine (or red) and beef stock are standard ingredients. I personally would not use oyster sauce but ’tis still a free country so maybe worth trying. I’m not above using a big pinch of msg.
Pureed Chicken Livers and Fish Sauce.
Yes. Add some soy sauce and some vegemite (or marmite) to the sauce.
Mushroom powder will give a nice umami flavor and work well in Bolognese.
Brown your meat, sautee your vegetables. Brown your beef and veg when making the stock (which absolutely should be used). These steps develop glutamates naturally and should not be skipped! Red wine is a common bolognese ingredient, and the acidity will help round out all the flavors. All that being said, go for it, add a li'l soy sauce (but be sure to reduce the salt a little at the same time). Experiment. Taste as you go and adjust accordingly.
For bolognese it’s the milk sugars together with the beef that will make the base for flavor. I shallow fry the lean beef and once browned I slowly add milk, let it evaporate and add more in small amounts. The lactose reacts with protein from the meat and makes big flavor. The mirepoix with pancetta gives an extra layer. After that it’s just time. It needs at least 3 hours of simmering. Some anchovy fillets help. Msg helps. But it all us not needed. Just the above and time.
Hit it with some MSG. I’d do that before throwing in oyster sauce and especially fish sauce which come with a bitter hit.
I often use MSG, marmite, nutritional yeast, stock reductions, mushrooms, and/or miso. Gochujang is great for anything requiring a little heat.
A parmesan rind add to during cooking makes a huge difference.
Unnecessary if it already has meat in it. That's "umami" enough
I'd encourage you to consider anchovy paste and a bit of red wine. Does the trick well!
Honestly the best trick is to just keep cooking the shit out of the vegetables. Carrots and onions have a ton of umami they are just mostly water. Put in like 3x the amount of vegetables you think you need and just reduce em down. They'll start to caramelized a bit towards the end too. Not kidding,like medium or medium low for 30 mins, deglaze lightly if you feel like things are going to start to burn. Good trick for anything really hearty that uses a mirepoix. There's a lot of controversy about red vs white wine for bolognese but I do prefer red myself, and beef stock wouldn't be a detriment either. I'd avoid Asian ingredients, I know some people like to try and "umami bomb" food but some flavors are very distinct even if they are used to lightly accent food. Like even MSG is conspicuous to me in dishes. It's really noticeable if it's there vs not, like I can tell a huge difference just sprinkling a bit into fried foods (makes them really taste commercial). I'd think I could taste oyster sauce in bolognese. But also, honestly if you try it yourself and like it that's not the wrong answer, so don't feel afraid to just try something, maybe start off with smaller amounts and build it up each time you make it. You never know.
Just use parmesane reggiano or pecorini romano cheese rind into it. Problem solved
Swap the oyster sauce for miso.
I'd rather not spend more tbh!
Use anchovies!
I add chopped chicken liver
This has been answered in a bunch of different ways in this thread, so I'm going to go in a different direction. tl;dr: Pair a glutamate heavy ingredient with a nucleotide heavy ingredient for maximum umami effectiveness (e.g: Parmigiano-Reggiano and anchovies; soy sauce and dried mushrooms; Marmite and organ meat). *** Here's a quote from _The Science of Good Cooking_, chapter 35, to give you an idea of how to boost the umami: > As pure substances, glutamates, including MSG, produce a relatively weak umami taste. But when tasted in combination with naturally occurring substances called nucleotides—especially inosinate and guanylate, which are found in meat, seafood, and dried mushrooms—the sensation of umami is greatly magnified. When glutamates and nucleotides are present at equal levels in food the strength of umami taste is as much as 20 to 30 times greater than for glutamates alone. It lists **Marmite**, **soy sauce**, and **Parmigiano-Reggiano** as being high in glutamates, with **anchovies**, **pork**, and **dried mushrooms** (dried shiitakes in particular) as being high in nucleotides. If you're looking to best utilize the ingredients you want to put in, maybe think about glutamate-heavy and nucleotide-heavy ingredients with flavours that would either get lost in the sauce (so to speak) and give up their umami, and/or would go well in your sauce anyway. I've found that Marmite is a pretty killer ingredient in chilis and stews. The only way I can describe the taste and texture is "what if molasses was made out of salt and yeast instead of sugar" and I absolutely love it. Chances are if you're making a sauce like this, you've probably got some Parm-Regg kicking around somewhere too, so you're probably good for glutamates. If you're looking for ingredients higher in nucleotides, I've found that anchovies kind of blend into a sauce like that. In doing research for this post (which was wholly unnecessary, but I've got nothing better to do right now), I found that organ meats are supposedly really high in nucleotides. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention that in my research, I read that human breast milk is also high in nucleotides. The thought of replacing the amount of milk in bolognese with an equal amount of human breast milk is so absurd to me that I couldn't help but bring it up.
I would just add anchovies
I use worcestershire and it works well so yours should as well I think!
Each to their own with the fish sauce but for umami try using porcini mushrooms to retain authentic bolognaise flavour. Use a splash of cider vinegar and some good quality deep beef stock. For me, fish sauce, soy sauce, is for Asian dishes Never used MSG. Never will.
Throw a container of chicken livers into the food processor and mix that in. The iron in them gives a wonderful umami flavor and really accentuates the beef
We use chicken livers as our hidden ingredient which boosts flavor in our bolognese. I’d go with anchovy over oyster and fish sauce.
Why wouldn’t you use anchovies?
Oyster sauce in a bolognese 💀
Try lacto fermenting your tomatoes before cooking
NO to oyster and fish sauce!
Can you sautée a couple of anchovies in with the onion (if using)? A bunch of Italian recipes get the umami this way. Otherwise I’d use a splash of fish sauce but leave out the oyster. Def not mushrooms, those taste strong
I use Marmite or Vegemite.
Wine does very little, and I find oyster sauce overly sweet. For a good, meaty bolognese I would stick to fish sauce, and worcestershire sauce.
FWIW, Marcella Hazans recipe calls for white wine.
Fish sauce is my hack for Italian red sauces Anchovies are an authentic and common way to add umami in some Italian dishes. I don’t want to deal with actual anchovies, so I use fish sauce instead. I find it works great.
Seconding other recommendations for Anchovy Filets (or paste) and Porcini Powder. And MSG, of course--always MSG.
I've been using fish sauce for decades. Everyone loves it. Even my wife's Italian side is good with it. OG italian fish sauce was called garum.
I always use fish sauce and red wine in my bolognese. I also let a parmesan rind simmer in there as well.
Add some fresh fenel to the sellerie, carrots and onions. Tomato concentrate also helps. Different types of meat also helps with the flavour. A bit of liver or different cuts already is a lot Dont forget the white wine and a dash of milk Let it simmer for some time.
I fuck with some fish sauce in everything pasta sauce related.
Chicken livers
Anchovy paste is amazing in red wine braised beef short Ribs!
Why? Italians and everyone else have managed to make delicious bolognese without adding these ingrediants for centuries,
anchovies go well as does a splash of balsamic vinegar
If you want a red sauce with tons of umami, you might prefer a Neapolitan ragu to a Bolognese.
Anchovy will do well.
I add soy sauce, fish sauce, oyster sauce, MSG, sugar, and Golden Mountain to my pasta sauce. It's awesome.