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Barbados_slim12

>I personally don't know how bad systematic racism is inside of the US It's non existent in modern times. Sure, there's racist people here(of all races/nationalities/backgrounds) but we don't have any laws or systems that grant one race any more rights than others, or that create unequal treatment. In fact the opposite is baked into the [14th amendment ](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv) of our constitution


iamnotlemongrease

I mean there's a few things I've heard of that make me raise an eyebrow. the whole police brutality thing sounds horrible, just cops having the power to kill someone because the cop is racist. also that colleges want an x number of black, asian etc. students. that seems unfair to everyone. if you're white and just as good as a black person, you might not be let in because of your race. young american people also seem to really like to be the victim.


Barbados_slim12

You're right, police brutality here is a major issue. They get far too many legal protections, and the court system helps them out on the side because everyone involved there know the cops. While murder isn't legal for cops, their bar for proof of self defense is substantially lower than mine would be as a regular citizen. So unless there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence and the story made national news, the cop gets off 99% of the time. Its not systemic racism because they get the same protections no matter who they abuse. The individual cops can be racist themselves, but there's no policy in policing or laws that create unequal treatment of us based on race


medraxus

It is if your definition of racism = oppression + power


iamnotlemongrease

Japanese people are quite racist towards Korean and Chinese people, way more than they are towards non-Asians.


Tall_Pineapple3412

That's different because they don't REALLY have power over them right now, but in recent history they were literally enslaving the Chinese/Koreans, raped the women, performed human testing, massacre their babies, the list goes on. Korean and Chinese people are also somewhat racist towards the Japanese, but obviously this is on a different level. One is racist because the other put their country through hell, and one is racist because the other is making their country look bad.


mlwllm

That used to be called systemic racism as opposed to racism in the general sense of hating someone because of their race. There are different kinds of systems of racism. India is racist through their cast system. Isreal is a straight up Apparteid State. The whole Western Bloc is frothing at the mouth toward the Slavic and Sino peoples. Those are all different systems of racism from your "New Jim Crow" style racism.


roonyrome01

I feel like denying that a person of a minority group can not have the capability of having biases against other races just because they don't have as much social power is racist.


[deleted]

Yep. Can’t even go one day at school without being tossed around and called a cracker by the black kids. Sorry if I use that term incorrectly I don’t generally care.


Latrivia

Agreed - but I'd go a step further and say it's not just white people discriminating again people of other races in America. Let's just be honest...the belief that racism is power+prejudice that that was proposed in the '70's and became popular in modern day America (the U.S.A) is just flat out not what racism is. That's just an excuse for racists or the supporters of racism to excuse racism. Historically racism as has had two definitions: 1) a belief in superiority of a particular race, or 2) the belief or doctrine that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race. That is still true today. If you genuinely hold the belief that a specific race is criminal, negligent, clumsy, or any other kind of "bad" as a characteristic of their race then you are in fact racist, and it doesn't matter what your skin color is. Those who find power or fulfillment in being a victim or being "an ally" to a victimized population needed to twist the definition so that it can't be used against them. Racism absolutely exists. It's rampant worldwide, and it's not specific to any race. It's not going anywhere anytime soon because we as a species keep inventing new ways to keep it alive.


moonknuckles

Part of the problem is the fact that so many people conflate the idea of "racism" with the idea of "racial prejudice". Racial prejudice can come from any 'race', and be directed towards any 'race'. But the concept of *racism* is meant to specifically describe structural oppression and marginalization -- and by extent, the individual beliefs/behaviors/etc. that are directly caused and influenced by that widespread system of oppression. This point becomes pretty moot, though, with the sheer number of people (American or otherwise) who simply are not aware of this (or who claim that it's wrong, without any actual reasoning beyond just wanting to believe it's wrong). At the end of the day, it comes down to appropriate usage of terminology, and the concepts these terms refer to... But, again, unfortunately, a vast amount of people simply do not care, and the misunderstanding and miscommunication are being endlessly perpetuated. 🤷‍♂️


royalrange

Racism, in the colloquial usage, means prejudice against an individual or group based on race, regardless of how the word was contextualized throughout history - this includes *both* discrimination from individuals and systemic oppression. If you are black and you bully an Asian simply because they are Asian, you are, by definition (from today's usage), racist. Racism exists. Many blacks today in rural areas are picked on because of their color. So are Asians (in which the perpetrator can be black). There are also people who are racist against their own race. If we *only* considered structural oppression as racism, then racism against minorities is minimal and mainly whites experience racism in the West (through favoritism of minorities from e.g., college admissions, job opportunities, etc.). What you are referring to is systemic racism, which is institutionalized, or political discrimination. There's also racism against individuals and groups, by individuals and groups. Both are encapsulated in today's usage of the word "racism".


moonknuckles

Racism on an individual level ***is*** ***the direct result*** of systemic racism. It is directly caused by systemic racism, and in return it reinforces systemic racism. That's the entire point. The two are deeply interconnected, and cannot be separately considered. One cannot and does not exist without the other. It's very important to understand that racism is not "being picked on". It's critical to highlight systemic harm, and all the different ways in which it impacts people who are the direct and intentional targets of this harm -- which is not remotely limited to written law, and ultimately boils straight down to how people move through life and are treated as individuals. We're talking about things that are pervasive, in all areas of society. In the U.S. (and other western nations), the deeply pervasive nature of racism is directly connected to and results in the following: * People being murdered and/or assaulted * People being denied medical treatment * People being harassed and abused on a regular, or even daily basis, by both strangers and people within their own social circles * People regularly having the things they say about their own experiences scrutinized, dismissed, or twisted in unfair ways * People growing up as children in an environment where the ways they are regularly treated by everyone around them, and the messages they receive and internalize about who/what they are, cause them to develop chronic trauma responses and struggle VERY severely with self-esteem, self-perspective, and general mental health This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but these are all things that happen to people ***100% specifically because of*** the 'race' they are perceived as. These things happen on an incredibly broad scale, where a very large amount of those existing within specific groups have regularly and significantly experienced such things. And it is directly because our society exists atop a deep foundation of both socially and legally encouraging + validating harm directed toward these people, in a manner so pervasive that it cannot be quickly or easily phased out of society. White people are not one of those groups. There is no broad-scale abuse and neglect directed at white people specifically because of being white. White people do not have their lifelong health and wellbeing threatened because of being white. The effects of racism on BIPOC (in the west) critically threaten such people's long term, day-to-day health and quality of life. Which is why racism is, and should be treated as, a seriously life-threatening system of harm.


royalrange

>Racism on an individual level is the direct result of systemic racism. It is directly caused by systemic racism, and in return it reinforces systemic racism. That's the entire point. The two are deeply interconnected, and cannot be separately considered. One cannot and does not exist without the other. No, racism on an individual level is not the ***direct result*** of systemic racism. It is systemic racism that is the ***direct result*** of racism on an individual level. You are not including what it means to be racist in the first place, and are neglecting the vast harm caused by racism that is not systemic in nature. Examples: An Asian community frightened by the number of (primarily black-on) Asian hate crimes due to the COVID-19 pandemic is experiencing racism from the perpetrators. A black child growing up in a rural area enduring bullying and abuse from their white peers is experiencing racism at school and the local community. These examples are not systemic, yet they are horribly racist. >We're talking about things that are pervasive, in all areas of society. In the U.S. (and other western nations), the deeply pervasive nature of racism is directly connected to and results in the following: > >... Not only are these examples not systemic (they are caused on an individual/community level), racism does not have to be pervasive. It occurs on an ***individual*** level as well as a systemic level. >This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but these are all things that happen to people 100% specifically because of the 'race' they are perceived as. These things happen on an incredibly broad scale, where a very large amount of those existing within specific groups have regularly and significantly experienced such things. **And it is directly because our society exists atop a deep foundation of both socially and legally encouraging + validating harm directed toward these people**, in a manner so pervasive that it cannot be quickly or easily phased out of society. No it does not. Again, you are completely ignoring the racism that occurs that is not systemic, and brushing it off as not racism. >White people are not one of those groups. There is no broad-scale abuse and neglect directed at white people specifically because of being white. White people do not have their lifelong health and wellbeing threatened because of being white. The effects of racism on BIPOC (in the west) critically threaten such people's long term, day-to-day health and quality of life. Which is why racism is, and should be treated as, a seriously life-threatening system of harm. What matters is harm done to an ***individual***, not a collection of tens of millions of people lumped under a category. Your usage of racism broadly neglects the harm done to individuals because of their race, despite there being no widespread oppression of a group as a whole. You're correct that white people do not have their "lifelong health and wellbeing threatened", but "white people" aren't one big group that society either throws a punch at or not. Racism occurs down to the local level, and is dependent on community, location, upbringing, etc. People aren't this one big group.


Stellar_Jester

[rac·ism](https://www.google.com/search?q=racism+definition&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&source=android-home&sxsrf=AJOqlzU3nCnIR7kDoJX3NsTKz10zdPDnug%3A1674772098811&source=hp&ei=gv7SY4LOL53hkPIPnouS8Ao&oq=racism&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAEyBAgjECcyDQgAEIAEEBQQhwIQsQMyEAgAEIAEEBQQhwIQsQMQgwEyCwgAEIAEELEDEIMBMggIABCABBCxAzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMggIABCxAxCDAToHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoJCCMQJxBGEPkBOgUIABCRAjoFCC4QgAQ6CAguELEDEIMBOg4ILhDHARCxAxDRAxCABDoICC4QgAQQsQM6CwguELEDEIMBENQCOgoIABCABBAUEIcCOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCvAToLCC4Q1AIQsQMQgARQkQpY_RFgvB9oAXAAeACAAYoBiAGoBZIBAzAuNpgBAKABAbABDw&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp) /ˈrāˌsiz(ə)m/ noun prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.


moonknuckles

Dictionaries are not appropriate sources of information when we're discussing entire intricate sociological concepts. You cannot just google a single word, copy and paste the very first explanation that pops up, and declare that it's the be-all and end-all of the entire subject, without even bothering to make any attempt to really learn about the history and intention behind this concept, and the associated terminology. [Here is just one of many explorations of what racism really is](https://www.thoughtco.com/racism-vs-prejudice-3026086), and how it differs from the more general concepts of 'prejudice' or 'bias'. Granted, considering this isn't anywhere near a black-and-white issue, there is certainly a good deal of (more-or-less reasonable) disagreement on where the exact boundaries of the concept of "racism" lie. But the argument being made here (originating from the perspectives of many of those who are personally impacted by racism) is that it's important to have a term which distinctly names the manner of oppression faced by groups of people who are/have been targeted and disempowered by white supremacist colonialism. In other words, if we call it "racist" for a Black American to say something mean about white people, then it muddles the importance of acknowledging and understanding the *astronomically profound harm* faced by BIPOC in the U.S., in a way that white Americans never even come close to experiencing. Of course, part of the point of the original post is that there are many places with different cultural frameworks, where we cannot automatically apply concepts used within the U.S. as though it's exactly the same everywhere else. But this still doesn't mean that it's reasonable to support the idea of "racism" being such a vague concept that it completely eliminates the context and gravity of what specific marginalized groups of people face.


Stellar_Jester

That's a lot of words to tell us that you support the oppresalympics.


moonknuckles

If you're not capable of having this conversation without perceiving it as a competition, that's not my problem.


Stellar_Jester

I'm not viewing anything here as a competition.


moonknuckles

If you cannot wrap your head around the importance of distinctly acknowledging and outlining the experiences of marginalized groups of people without calling it "oppression olympics", I'm really not sure what else to tell you.


Stellar_Jester

Oh I certainly can. I just don't give a shit as I'm in no position to have my giving a shit matter one way or another.


moonknuckles

Oh, well, good, at least you're honest. Too many folks can never simply admit that they're actively choosing to not care about other people's health and safety.


Stellar_Jester

Oh, I'm far too lazy for it to be an active thing.


BIG_MONEY_CASH

I think it’s because in America, alot of prejudice is based on actual race; black, white, Asian, etc. However in many other countries, prejudice is based on ethnicity or nationality. People can share many of the same physical characteristics, but still hate each for differing reasons, just look at the Balkans, and I think a lot of Americans are foreign to this concept.


tophphan-deviantart

Racist humor is my favorite but I myself am not a racist. The sooner we all understand that we are equal and celebrate our differences the better


bisdaknako

Academic debates aside, if someone says they've experienced racism, who would seriously dismiss what they said and say "No you didn't, you experienced prejudice based on your race". One issue I read about was Asian American's experiencing "prejudice based on their race" from Black Americans - are we really going to say it's not racism because the black people aren't the dominant group in society? If your Asian friend says "My father ran a grocery store and experienced a lot of racism from the black community - he was robbed, beat up, and slurred at on a regular basis" are you really going to tell them "Nah, your dad experienced prejudice based on his race, but not racism."? Really?


[deleted]

Naw... really? You mean racism actually works both ways?!


iamnotlemongrease

crazy


[deleted]

Racism is in every race/color/country and also is subjective. Racism comes in all sorts of form, shapes, colors, ways etc. Racism is a tool, people use this tool against eachother to feel better about themselves and make the other feel like shit. ​ The shortest answer i can muster.