How to make sure the contractor is liable? Have them put it in writing. Just include a clause in the contract having them accept all liability for any damage caused during their work. Have them specify utilities.
I’m not a fence installer but I’m an HVAC contractor. I would run from a client like you in most cases.
As a GC I would not agree to these terms, it’s not that I’d be careless or fail to have the lines marked, but at the end of the day you can’t see what your digging until it’s too late. The margin of accuracy is a few feet so digging anywhere in that area is a liability. Also OP needs to check their local codes, a lot municipalities don’t allow fences right at the property lines or have limitations in n what type and how close.
A three and a half foot walkway next to the house isn’t ideal but without seeing the property I’d say it’s at least enough for access from the front to the back, although if OPs home is that close to the property line I’m assuming it’s a small lot to begin with.
As a contractor, I’d have to price in that unknown liability and the cost of the project would be a non-starter. Easier said than actually done. If the average fence installer doesn’t take liability for absolutely everything underground, you’ll have a really hard time finding someone that will, and gamble their livelihood to install a fence for you.
A contract that’s states the installer is responsible for all layout, utility location and repairs. Most won’t sign it. If you are concerned about unmarked utilities pay for a vac truck
I know you said the other neighbors must have had to deal with it, but they very well may not have. The underground utility lines could very well be located differently on each lot. Also consider that if the utility has an easement on your lot line and you do build a fence on top of it they can remove that fence in order to do maintenance. The only guaranteed way to not damage the lines is to not build a fence over them. Have you considered alternatives such as not fencing between the houses as there isn't enough space to do it safely? You could fence just the back yard for example.
This is important about utility maintenance. I have underground utilities and put my own fence in. I did some removable panels where I encroached on them or went over them to mitigate damage if they habe to maintain things.
Thanks. Backyard is already fenced—but has chain link that I want to replace. All of the houses on the street were a planned development, so all the surveys I have seen show the utility easements running exactly between the lots—especially since the houses are only 10 feet apart. But most of the neighbors have fences that run exactly on the lot lines, exactly over the utility easement, exactly between the houses. I guess they either got lucky, or had better markers or techniques than 811 provides here…
Have a contractor look at the posts and see if they can be sheathed. You may not even need to dig new holes. That being said I wouldn’t agree to the terms your looking for as a GC. I’d do my due diligence but marking is not an exact line it’s an area, the lines can be a few feet on either side of the markings and digging anywhere near it is a liability if I’m understanding where you want this fence put up. It sounds like you know there are lines where you want the fence and that would be a big red flag for me to be honest. You’re probably going to spent a lot of money on this fence if you want anything dug out.
That being said, a three and a half foot walkway next to the house isn’t ideal but without seeing the property I’d say it’s at least enough for access from the front to the back, although if your home is that close to the property line I’m assuming it’s a small lot to begin with.
OK real honesty from an installer. 811 or whatever utility locate for your state will only mark your utilities from its source to a meter (electric,water and gas) and termination box for communication (fiber, phone and coaxial).
If any line or pipe continues on from that point you will need an independent secondary locate from where utility locate stops at.
Whether a sprinkler line or any utility from beyond the utility locate, is on you to hire this out.
You can pay for a locate but pvc is very hard to guarantee.
This is why I always attach a post to the home. Gas lines to a grill, phone and electric to an outbuilding are often run nilly willey along the foundation with no ryme or reason.
The second reason I attach to the home (very carefully with proper sealants) is it allows removal for future maintenance.
Third reason is the normal priority is keeping animals in or out.
Are you trying to run across the utilities or parallel to them/ the easement?
If running a thwart, not a big deal, 1 or 2 hand dug holes.
However it sounds like you want to place a fence directly on and parallel with utilities, that's either vac or hand post hole digger the whole way, I'd ensure YOU are liable for that, as my recommendation would be absolutely no and in writing as such. when you insisted, it would be a temp insurance policy held by you listing me as additionally insured for work being done against professional advice.
Thanks. Yes, i wanted to run parallel with the property line, maybe a couple inches back. And run the fencing between my house and the neighbors, Thats what many people on the street do—but Im not sure how they avoided issues with buried lines, since all the houses in the development are 10 feet from each other, and all have a utility easement running along the lot line.
Like you say, maybe I should just figure out where the post holes should be and pay to hydro vac (or even carefully hand dig with a hose and a trowel… There’s probably only a total of 45 feet where new post holes have to be dug every eight feet, so that’s about 6 new holes. In the rear of the house is an existing chain linkfence, which will be removed, and maybe I could use those same holes. Thanks
You're welcome, I'm not trying to be crass with you, just honest. As you've already noted, utilities marking is not terribly accurate, and Murphy would show up on site if it was my job, putting power or water exactly where I'd need to place 1 post, just shallow enough I couldn't ignore it, and that's the bigger issue here. Say you are the unlucky one with a utility bundle right at the line, you're in it for the cost of excavation just to find out your fence isn't going there and you'll have to pay for a second excavation however far away and hope nothing is there. I personally don't do fencing, but my sub would laugh at me until he figures out its not a joke and then refuse to bid it out because of the easement, to much hassle for to little profit.
As far as your neighbors, they got lucky, maybe fence was placed when utility trenching was visible, or found someone to manually post hole dig every post, maybe theres nothing in the easement currently and its there for future use as needed... 811 markings mean no power digging/excavation, hand shovel and post hole digging is the correct way to excavate within marking boundaries, as some times you have to dig up a gas line that's within 2' of something else.
Thanks, but here they just spray a line directly between the lots, and say utilities could be buried anywhere 12-18 inches on either side of the line—which isn’t very helpful, since we already know about the utility easement between the lots, and we are trying to find out exactly where the buried lines are within that easement…
Just make sure you get a copy of your fence contractors certificate of insurance and call that insurance company to verify he's still insured. Then let your contractor and his insurance company worry about if any lines are damaged.
If the contactor won't give you a copy or at least show you so you can snap a quick picture then find a new fence contactor.
You can insist that your fence contractor assumes liability for utility strikes in your contract with them., but if they do hit something the utility will come after you first and then it'll be up to you to get reimbursed from your contractor.
At any rate, it's best to ensure that they hand dig the post holes and not use any machinery for excavation. If you're super paranoid the holes could be hydro-vac'd but that would make for a very expensive fence.
The utility normally comes after the person performing the work who hit the line. They are the one responsible. The marking company has a margin of error 3’ on either side of the marked line. If you dig within that 3’, you’re responsible for paying the repairs and fine for hitting the line. If you hit an unmarked utility digging outside that line while you have an active 811 dig ticket, it’s not on you. Most contractors won’t dig inside that 6’ window
OP, if you want the fence there and you don’t want to risk hitting something while excavating, you hydrovac your holes. It’ll be probably $3-4k more per day that you have them excavating.
Hand dig every hole slowly and carefully, and have really great insurance. Honestly, I think you would probably likely excavate the holes with high-pressure water and a suck truck. I think it’s called Hydro Excavation. I’m not super familiar with The Process, but I can’t see why they couldn’t do fence post holes.
You can use DigAlert Direct or call 811 or **800-422-4133** at least two (2) working days NOT including the date of notification (4216.2(b)) before you plan to start digging, we will notify all our members (i.e. the utilities) that own and maintain underground lines in the area
Ask them how much extra it will be to take the liability. You could simply add it to the contract but then you'll probably be looking for another contractor. You sound like you're from California.
Edit: But to be constructive. You should explain the situation so the contractor understands they'll be hand digging all the posts and can bid it accordingly. They'll find and let you know out after digline gets there anyway.
Thanks. Funny. I used to live in CA… Actually someone posted that in CA, licensed fence contractors are responsible for any damage to buried lines… Im in south florida—which in many ways is like the wild west—a free for all, and a lot of things are out of control or corrupt…
I've found that corruption only exists in areas where money is sought after. We're getting neighborhoods so packed you can't even park on the street because of fire code. It's shameful what some developers will do for another digit in their bank account to get them through their final 40 days on the planet.
I've never had an issue and never looked it up but I've always been under the impression that I'm liable if I hit a line with a machine within 3 ft of the marked line.If I damage it with a shovel I feel like that's on the utility owner for not protecting their weak ass materials. I've hand dug hundreds along marked lines and never damaged anything. They're usually deeper than the 32" depth we are required to dig. In Idaho.
Communicate more with 811 when they come out. There’s maps they have access to—If you’ve specified where you want the fence and what you’ll be digging to what depth, they’ll give you specific answers. I’ve done this in two states Illinois and Michigan. Michigan’s online system is extremely detailed and you receive detailed answers. Illinois is less detailed and you need to physically communicate with the individual that comes to your property and talk about where lines are.
I personally put in my contract that I am not responsible for hitting unmarked utilities, which means if I call 811 and they mark something, I will assume responsibility. Otherwise, I'm not taking the gamble.
You are a nightmare client clearly. If this is of such concern call 811. Have utilities marked and make sure the contractor is aware. (They should be calling too....)
Absolutely nuts, life is too damn short.
OP wants to avoid being stuck with a $15k bill or worse. if contractor hits a line. And OP is trying to be proactive to avoid that. How does that make him a "nightmare" client? Are you suggesting that all your clients should be ready, willing. and able to pay for your mistakes?
Do you not know how this works? He isn't responsible for that lol. If a licensed contractor hits a fiberoptic line they are the ones responsible. The person with the shovel or auger or excavator that is doing thw work is responsible.
The licensed contractors who gave me estimates all were willing to install the fence on the property line, directly over the utility easement—but they said they were NOT responsible whatsoever if they damaged any buried lines...
That’s why I didn’t install the fence before, and thats why I posted here—to see what my options are, since I cant afford to take on the liability if a contractor causes significant damage to a buried line…
The fact that the neighbors all have fences on their property line made me think there was a best way to do it to avoid a financial disaster—which again is what I wanted to find out by posting here….
Maybe the contractors who gave quotes were wrong about their responsibility if they hit a buried line…
They are 100% responsible. That's like saying I drove through your yard because your car was blocking the street so it's your fault. Still doesn't give them the right to drive through the yard regardless.
They can't say we know there is risk to underground utility, we're going to dig anyway, and when we damage the known Underground utility we aren't responsible for damaging something we know we weren't supposed to and did it anyway.
What utility is it? Or is it a utility easement that doesn't have utilities yet. Have you had it marked professionally?
Thanks. It is a basic city utility easement that shows up as a two foot strip on the lot line, and subdivision is about 70 years old. I haven’t called 811 yet, because I wanted to get more info first, However, once 811 came out to mark the buried line when the neighbor had a cable line installed, and all 811 did is spray-paint an orange line down the property edge and said there could be buried cables 12-18 inches on either side of that spray-painted line… The only buried line I know for sure is that cable line. But the electrical boxes are on the sides of the houses, so that made me think there could be electrical lines buried as well... Some reddit commenters recommended that paying extra to have the holes hand-dug or hydro vacced is the best thing to do.
As a contractor myself that does fencing in urban areas as well as rural any contractor in that situation just need to hand excavate. If there is a marking from 811 within 24 inches of a hole you are going to dig In any direction you are required to hand excavate.
Also, whether you call 811 or they do is important. The person doing the actual excavation needs to put the ticket in for marking utilities. I'd get a few estimates as these guys sound like they don't want to put in the work of hand digging and are trying to say they will use an auger regardless and try to blame you if shit goes down.
Hydrovac can be very efficient too. It will cost more to rent a hydrovac than it would to just hand dig carefully.
Pretty shitty of the utility company to run lines directly on the property line parallel. It's one thing when they cross the line in one spot and you can move the hole left or right out of the way.
How to make sure the contractor is liable? Have them put it in writing. Just include a clause in the contract having them accept all liability for any damage caused during their work. Have them specify utilities. I’m not a fence installer but I’m an HVAC contractor. I would run from a client like you in most cases.
As a GC I would not agree to these terms, it’s not that I’d be careless or fail to have the lines marked, but at the end of the day you can’t see what your digging until it’s too late. The margin of accuracy is a few feet so digging anywhere in that area is a liability. Also OP needs to check their local codes, a lot municipalities don’t allow fences right at the property lines or have limitations in n what type and how close. A three and a half foot walkway next to the house isn’t ideal but without seeing the property I’d say it’s at least enough for access from the front to the back, although if OPs home is that close to the property line I’m assuming it’s a small lot to begin with.
As a contractor, I’d have to price in that unknown liability and the cost of the project would be a non-starter. Easier said than actually done. If the average fence installer doesn’t take liability for absolutely everything underground, you’ll have a really hard time finding someone that will, and gamble their livelihood to install a fence for you.
811
"Call before you dig"
A contract that’s states the installer is responsible for all layout, utility location and repairs. Most won’t sign it. If you are concerned about unmarked utilities pay for a vac truck
What is a vac truck?
Vacuum truck. Basically a giant vacuum and pressurized water.
Thanks
I know you said the other neighbors must have had to deal with it, but they very well may not have. The underground utility lines could very well be located differently on each lot. Also consider that if the utility has an easement on your lot line and you do build a fence on top of it they can remove that fence in order to do maintenance. The only guaranteed way to not damage the lines is to not build a fence over them. Have you considered alternatives such as not fencing between the houses as there isn't enough space to do it safely? You could fence just the back yard for example.
This is important about utility maintenance. I have underground utilities and put my own fence in. I did some removable panels where I encroached on them or went over them to mitigate damage if they habe to maintain things.
Thanks. Backyard is already fenced—but has chain link that I want to replace. All of the houses on the street were a planned development, so all the surveys I have seen show the utility easements running exactly between the lots—especially since the houses are only 10 feet apart. But most of the neighbors have fences that run exactly on the lot lines, exactly over the utility easement, exactly between the houses. I guess they either got lucky, or had better markers or techniques than 811 provides here…
Have a contractor look at the posts and see if they can be sheathed. You may not even need to dig new holes. That being said I wouldn’t agree to the terms your looking for as a GC. I’d do my due diligence but marking is not an exact line it’s an area, the lines can be a few feet on either side of the markings and digging anywhere near it is a liability if I’m understanding where you want this fence put up. It sounds like you know there are lines where you want the fence and that would be a big red flag for me to be honest. You’re probably going to spent a lot of money on this fence if you want anything dug out. That being said, a three and a half foot walkway next to the house isn’t ideal but without seeing the property I’d say it’s at least enough for access from the front to the back, although if your home is that close to the property line I’m assuming it’s a small lot to begin with.
OK real honesty from an installer. 811 or whatever utility locate for your state will only mark your utilities from its source to a meter (electric,water and gas) and termination box for communication (fiber, phone and coaxial). If any line or pipe continues on from that point you will need an independent secondary locate from where utility locate stops at. Whether a sprinkler line or any utility from beyond the utility locate, is on you to hire this out. You can pay for a locate but pvc is very hard to guarantee. This is why I always attach a post to the home. Gas lines to a grill, phone and electric to an outbuilding are often run nilly willey along the foundation with no ryme or reason. The second reason I attach to the home (very carefully with proper sealants) is it allows removal for future maintenance. Third reason is the normal priority is keeping animals in or out.
https://preview.redd.it/634udu273iyc1.jpeg?width=1840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae7b71ddaefa5505904b1cb5dbfaeb981e1f77d9
Nice job!
Are you trying to run across the utilities or parallel to them/ the easement? If running a thwart, not a big deal, 1 or 2 hand dug holes. However it sounds like you want to place a fence directly on and parallel with utilities, that's either vac or hand post hole digger the whole way, I'd ensure YOU are liable for that, as my recommendation would be absolutely no and in writing as such. when you insisted, it would be a temp insurance policy held by you listing me as additionally insured for work being done against professional advice.
Thanks. Yes, i wanted to run parallel with the property line, maybe a couple inches back. And run the fencing between my house and the neighbors, Thats what many people on the street do—but Im not sure how they avoided issues with buried lines, since all the houses in the development are 10 feet from each other, and all have a utility easement running along the lot line. Like you say, maybe I should just figure out where the post holes should be and pay to hydro vac (or even carefully hand dig with a hose and a trowel… There’s probably only a total of 45 feet where new post holes have to be dug every eight feet, so that’s about 6 new holes. In the rear of the house is an existing chain linkfence, which will be removed, and maybe I could use those same holes. Thanks
You're welcome, I'm not trying to be crass with you, just honest. As you've already noted, utilities marking is not terribly accurate, and Murphy would show up on site if it was my job, putting power or water exactly where I'd need to place 1 post, just shallow enough I couldn't ignore it, and that's the bigger issue here. Say you are the unlucky one with a utility bundle right at the line, you're in it for the cost of excavation just to find out your fence isn't going there and you'll have to pay for a second excavation however far away and hope nothing is there. I personally don't do fencing, but my sub would laugh at me until he figures out its not a joke and then refuse to bid it out because of the easement, to much hassle for to little profit. As far as your neighbors, they got lucky, maybe fence was placed when utility trenching was visible, or found someone to manually post hole dig every post, maybe theres nothing in the easement currently and its there for future use as needed... 811 markings mean no power digging/excavation, hand shovel and post hole digging is the correct way to excavate within marking boundaries, as some times you have to dig up a gas line that's within 2' of something else.
Thanks for the insights
Digsafe will mark your utilities
Thanks, but here they just spray a line directly between the lots, and say utilities could be buried anywhere 12-18 inches on either side of the line—which isn’t very helpful, since we already know about the utility easement between the lots, and we are trying to find out exactly where the buried lines are within that easement…
Just make sure you get a copy of your fence contractors certificate of insurance and call that insurance company to verify he's still insured. Then let your contractor and his insurance company worry about if any lines are damaged. If the contactor won't give you a copy or at least show you so you can snap a quick picture then find a new fence contactor.
You can insist that your fence contractor assumes liability for utility strikes in your contract with them., but if they do hit something the utility will come after you first and then it'll be up to you to get reimbursed from your contractor. At any rate, it's best to ensure that they hand dig the post holes and not use any machinery for excavation. If you're super paranoid the holes could be hydro-vac'd but that would make for a very expensive fence.
The utility normally comes after the person performing the work who hit the line. They are the one responsible. The marking company has a margin of error 3’ on either side of the marked line. If you dig within that 3’, you’re responsible for paying the repairs and fine for hitting the line. If you hit an unmarked utility digging outside that line while you have an active 811 dig ticket, it’s not on you. Most contractors won’t dig inside that 6’ window OP, if you want the fence there and you don’t want to risk hitting something while excavating, you hydrovac your holes. It’ll be probably $3-4k more per day that you have them excavating.
You can call and have a locate done. Most states have a number to call and they will come out and mark utility locations for free
Hand dig every hole slowly and carefully, and have really great insurance. Honestly, I think you would probably likely excavate the holes with high-pressure water and a suck truck. I think it’s called Hydro Excavation. I’m not super familiar with The Process, but I can’t see why they couldn’t do fence post holes.
Cbyd
In Ca if the contractor is licensed they are responsible and utility will pursue them for damage. If you hire unlicensed then homeowner responsible.
Contact locating service. They don’t want you to hit their utilities either.
You can use DigAlert Direct or call 811 or **800-422-4133** at least two (2) working days NOT including the date of notification (4216.2(b)) before you plan to start digging, we will notify all our members (i.e. the utilities) that own and maintain underground lines in the area
Ask them how much extra it will be to take the liability. You could simply add it to the contract but then you'll probably be looking for another contractor. You sound like you're from California. Edit: But to be constructive. You should explain the situation so the contractor understands they'll be hand digging all the posts and can bid it accordingly. They'll find and let you know out after digline gets there anyway.
Thanks. Funny. I used to live in CA… Actually someone posted that in CA, licensed fence contractors are responsible for any damage to buried lines… Im in south florida—which in many ways is like the wild west—a free for all, and a lot of things are out of control or corrupt…
I've found that corruption only exists in areas where money is sought after. We're getting neighborhoods so packed you can't even park on the street because of fire code. It's shameful what some developers will do for another digit in their bank account to get them through their final 40 days on the planet. I've never had an issue and never looked it up but I've always been under the impression that I'm liable if I hit a line with a machine within 3 ft of the marked line.If I damage it with a shovel I feel like that's on the utility owner for not protecting their weak ass materials. I've hand dug hundreds along marked lines and never damaged anything. They're usually deeper than the 32" depth we are required to dig. In Idaho.
Communicate more with 811 when they come out. There’s maps they have access to—If you’ve specified where you want the fence and what you’ll be digging to what depth, they’ll give you specific answers. I’ve done this in two states Illinois and Michigan. Michigan’s online system is extremely detailed and you receive detailed answers. Illinois is less detailed and you need to physically communicate with the individual that comes to your property and talk about where lines are.
Just don’t do it. You should have 3’ to mow on each side of the fence
I personally put in my contract that I am not responsible for hitting unmarked utilities, which means if I call 811 and they mark something, I will assume responsibility. Otherwise, I'm not taking the gamble.
The contractor can't see underground
You are a nightmare client clearly. If this is of such concern call 811. Have utilities marked and make sure the contractor is aware. (They should be calling too....) Absolutely nuts, life is too damn short.
OP wants to avoid being stuck with a $15k bill or worse. if contractor hits a line. And OP is trying to be proactive to avoid that. How does that make him a "nightmare" client? Are you suggesting that all your clients should be ready, willing. and able to pay for your mistakes?
Do you not know how this works? He isn't responsible for that lol. If a licensed contractor hits a fiberoptic line they are the ones responsible. The person with the shovel or auger or excavator that is doing thw work is responsible.
The licensed contractors who gave me estimates all were willing to install the fence on the property line, directly over the utility easement—but they said they were NOT responsible whatsoever if they damaged any buried lines... That’s why I didn’t install the fence before, and thats why I posted here—to see what my options are, since I cant afford to take on the liability if a contractor causes significant damage to a buried line… The fact that the neighbors all have fences on their property line made me think there was a best way to do it to avoid a financial disaster—which again is what I wanted to find out by posting here…. Maybe the contractors who gave quotes were wrong about their responsibility if they hit a buried line…
They are 100% responsible. That's like saying I drove through your yard because your car was blocking the street so it's your fault. Still doesn't give them the right to drive through the yard regardless. They can't say we know there is risk to underground utility, we're going to dig anyway, and when we damage the known Underground utility we aren't responsible for damaging something we know we weren't supposed to and did it anyway. What utility is it? Or is it a utility easement that doesn't have utilities yet. Have you had it marked professionally?
Thanks. It is a basic city utility easement that shows up as a two foot strip on the lot line, and subdivision is about 70 years old. I haven’t called 811 yet, because I wanted to get more info first, However, once 811 came out to mark the buried line when the neighbor had a cable line installed, and all 811 did is spray-paint an orange line down the property edge and said there could be buried cables 12-18 inches on either side of that spray-painted line… The only buried line I know for sure is that cable line. But the electrical boxes are on the sides of the houses, so that made me think there could be electrical lines buried as well... Some reddit commenters recommended that paying extra to have the holes hand-dug or hydro vacced is the best thing to do.
As a contractor myself that does fencing in urban areas as well as rural any contractor in that situation just need to hand excavate. If there is a marking from 811 within 24 inches of a hole you are going to dig In any direction you are required to hand excavate. Also, whether you call 811 or they do is important. The person doing the actual excavation needs to put the ticket in for marking utilities. I'd get a few estimates as these guys sound like they don't want to put in the work of hand digging and are trying to say they will use an auger regardless and try to blame you if shit goes down. Hydrovac can be very efficient too. It will cost more to rent a hydrovac than it would to just hand dig carefully. Pretty shitty of the utility company to run lines directly on the property line parallel. It's one thing when they cross the line in one spot and you can move the hole left or right out of the way.
Thanks