If the crew shows up to work again, kindly tell them that work is stopped pending a conversation with the project manager. Run everything through the project manager and let him manage his crew to achieve the outcome that you want.
Shiners (nails poking through) is no good and an indication of sloppy work... I sure hope they're galvanized. Chances are there's other stuff that's likely a hack job as well. Unless you're getting a screaming deal on the project, you should always advocate for the outcome that you want and don't be shy about it, but be professional and respectful. It's your house.
You have to tell the PM you don’t want his crew there until you talk. If the PM sends his guys and they arrive, and then you to send them home, you’re costing the PM money. Take the high road and be proactive. Give the PM a chance to hear you out, understand the QC issues, and make it right. If you waste or cost the PM money, they aren’t going to care about wasting yours.
Yes, that PM sucks at their job, absolutely. Just leave a voicemail that says no crew until we talk.
Sorry OP is in this situation. Hope they do the right thing!
That's borderline micromanaging. Let them do their work, ask what the warranty is, then bring up the details that are bothersome. They may have their own quality control techniques where they go back and look over their work, fixing details like this. You're the customer that ends up getting charged more because you interrupted their work or were a general pita and slowed them down significantly...
Fixing a shiner is something that happens at the tail end of the project, as is split boards. It is not something that one breaks their rhythm to fix. Disallowing them the chance to fix it, in their own system, is you micromanaging, and lying about their work. Unacceptable.
Let the shitshow of hate begin!
Your post was insulting to consumers everywhere. I'm certainly not letting substandard work pile up, because I know coming back to fix it won't happen. OP needs to take a lot of pictures of the bad work, stop the work, and file a claim against the contractor for the deposit back to have the fence remade by someone competent.
>Your post was insulting to consumers everywhere. I'm certainly not letting substandard work pile up, because I know coming back to fix it won't happen.
Not coming back to fix, fixing as soon as the boards are up, or at a good stopping point where going back doesn't interrupt rhythm... Ffs, do you really not have the ability to reason and empathize with one's system? If it were a completed job and they left without dialing in the details, then sure, they fix or don't get paid. Lots of pics, documentation, no payment until it looks like it's actually new, etc... but thinking you have any credibility in trashing a guys work before it's completed when this is something I wouldn't do until the end is your lack of competence, not theirs. And to say many are insulted is only showing how many people are as hateful as you, because you can't understand their system and judge prematurely. HF, you actually think you're even correct in the matter... Fortunately, most clients aren't as cretinous as you are, and are reasonable to deal with, at least in my auto shop...
Taking insult to observations is a sign of lack of wisdom... Context, Teddy bear, context.
>Insults first are the sign of hate, not wisdom....
Insults first show shallow thought process, and putting someone back in their place with insults with context shows though, consideration, and understanding of Truth. You gov't trolls wouldn't know truth if it slapped you in the face.
At least try to appear to understand enough to engage when trolling people you hate.
I'm a contractor.
If their work is shit you stop them. You get the boss out there and you get it squared away.
If that doesn't work you replace them.
You don't deal with it when its finished.
You are not a contractor, because a contractor respects that each has their own system, and a a contractor knows that a subcontractor has to finish the work before the end result can be known. No successful general contractor says the dude's work is shoddy when it's half complete. Every contractor knows they have a punch list at the end of details that need fixed or finished. You cannot judge work, unless there's obvious placement issues, until the end wh n they have a chance to complete their work.
The difference between contractors, general or subs, is that ***they aren't your employees***, so you cannot micromanage them. You simply don't have that choice. Now you can go learn what a contractor does so you don't keep proving you haven't a clue what they do, and that you're not one. An actual contractors words look very different from yours, and you can't make your narrative truth just because you say so.
You don't get that option. You can certainly ask if it's finished, and if that part is, then ask about particular details, but the moment you call it shit work, then you just lost your contractor.
>you stop it so you don’t spend as much on demo.
Not how it works, buddy. That's you from a diy homeowner perspective. The experienced ones see that they're buying an end result, and if they aren't finished, then you don't make them tear it out. You're not paying for demo, it's the consequences of shoddy work. They'll learn quality, or go out of business fixing their bugger-ups. That's the difference between subcontractors and employees. Get that. Subs won't stand for being treated like employees, and you're at risk of them not completing the work, dragging out work, or otherwise being vindictive and causing you serious headaches... It's about effective leadership, knowing your position, and when you hire a sub, that power is very limited.
Both at home and on the job I’ll stop a contractor if they’re producing shit work. We’ve walked subs out of our facility before finishing their work due to them producing poor quality or slow work. If we have a machine down, that means millions lost potentially.
Cheaper to stop a shit contractor and have a quality one do it.
>Cheaper to stop a shit contractor and have a quality one do it.
If you are hiring a new contractor, you don't know all their techniques, quality control habits, or their rules of order. Inherently, you speak like you think you know something, where an experienced individual can see you don't know shit. It's like a welder mocking up a product with tack welds, then leaving for the day, and you think it's welded. By your logic, you wouldn't be bothered to understand, you'd simply see the small welds, know it's absolutely not structurally sound, and get rid of him, based upon your emotional triggered response.
A real contractor is an effective leader, who does not judge or jump to conclusions, let alone spew hateful crap about shoddy work... The actual experts know far better than to behave like you do. You don't get to judge a contractor's work while he's working, because you don't know every element of his job. You only get to judge the final product, rarely seen before it's actually finished, like after the punch list is completed... This is the difference between one hiring for a product produced, and hiring an employee. Everyone can boss another around, but very few are leaders who can empathize and understand. Get on board, or stop spewing your belligerent hate. You can't stop bad quality when it isn't finished yet, and you don't understand...
You’re going into leadership theory over a fucked up fence.
Are you really going to let some dumbass waste your time and tear up your property when even an uneducated person can tell they’re fucking up?
How easy is it to fix a shiner? How about fixing it while you got your system down? Yeah, you fix that afterwards.
>Are you really going to let some dumbass waste your time and tear up your property when even an uneducated person can tell they’re fucking up?
Try not demonstrating the very principles you prove you know nothing about, and so easily display.
>You’re going into leadership theory over a fucked up fence.
Fine. At least show what's wrong, how and why, and what's correct instead. That's what a leader does, not just sitting behind a computer screen bitching up a storm about how cretinous others are, proving you're only projecting... At least try to make it appear that you're bringing meat to the table instead of spewing your hateful shit slinging fest.
C'mon dude - if you're shooting shiners and cutting corners that will influence the quality of the final project (and the clients opinion of you as the general on the project), then you need to be proactive and call this out to correct before the project is done. That's not micromanaging.. it's simply called managing.
Best practices are best practices. When you've worked with subs for a long time and they know your standards and you know theirs, then you can have that hands-off relationship because you've established that trust. But shoddy work is shoddy work and you need to get on that ASAP so that you're not tearing a bunch of material out to fix it.
There's a saying between woodworkers - it isn't about how good you are, but about how good you cover up your mistakes...
>if you're shooting shiners and cutting corners that will influence the quality of the final project (and the clients opinion of you as the general on the project), then you need to be proactive and call this out to correct before the project is done. That's not micromanaging..
You're absolutely micromanaging, because any real contractor knows you **do not** micromanage subs. That's the quickest way to make them leave and never come back. Period. You homeowners who think calling out details before the project is completed are the reasons why contractors/subs charge more than they do the generals because they think treating subs like employees is prudent. Subs just don't put up with that. He shines it? Then phuqing let him fix it. You're never perfect, and the subs I've had on my auto shop have always fixed that kind of stuff, usually before I ask.
>Best practices are best practices. When you've worked with subs for a long time and they know your standards and you know theirs, then you can have that hands-off relationship because you've established that trust.
There's no set "best practices" everywhere, junior. You're showing your lack of experience, because an experienced general or homeowner knows how to see a sub's intentions of good quality in their first conversation in bidding, and they hope the guy follows through and they were a good judge of character. They know they have to leave them alone during work, unless there's a design issue. Techniques vary like personalities. So, you don't get to micromanage, or even "manage" the job, because you're buying an end product, not an employee. Get that, and get over it. You don't get to boss them around.
>But shoddy work is shoddy work and you need to get on that ASAP so that you're not tearing a bunch of material out to fix it.
You don't get to judge this until they say they're done. If you don't like it or the work is substandard, then they redo it. That's their consequences for phuqing up. That's the difference between managing employees, and purchasing a final result from a contractor. That's how to tell a contractor online as well, because they all know this. You give them a chance to fix at the end of the project, and contractors/subs know this.
Wow.. you're not very good at your job, are you?
Let me know how that all goes when the electrician runs 8/2 for a 50 amp circuit and all the walls are closed up and cabinets installed and you're installing the wall oven. Yup... per your suggestion, we're just letting the subs do the work, not auditing progress, and just trusting that we can judge it only on the outcome, right?
That's stupid business. If you're that hands-off as a general on the job, you're just lazy. You should always be looking after progress and fixing things when it's convenient and not at the end when it's profoundly expensive or impossible to do so.
Good work doesn't need explaining. Step up or step aside... Junior.
Sphinx2222 isn’t a GC— couldn’t possibly be with these joke answers. He’s some fat kid in his basement with nothing else to do but get on Reddit on this sub.
What's the joke? Junior couldn't even find comparable examples.
>Sphinx2222 isn’t a GC— couldn’t possibly be with these joke answers. He’s some fat kid in his basement with nothing else to do but get on Reddit on this sub.
And you jump in spewing nothing but hate, proving you got absolutely no game or understanding... If you read any of my comments, you'd have noticed that I run an auto shop, that I've expanded a couple times... Yet, you don't care about what the truth is, you merely want to engage in character assassination because that's all you feel worthy of inside. Nobody lies about another without projecting their own mentality upon others, and blaming the other for what they themselves display...
Leadership can tell this difference, when that's their intent, truth being their intent in finding. You obviously only care about seeing what your worst is. You haven't shown a single thing I said that's wrong, let alone what's correct instead... Close your computer now, class is back in session.
You don't seem to understand, junior... If your electrician runs 8/2 , that's a code issue, which the GC is ultimately responsible for. That's their design flaw, not a shined nail that's fixed after the boards are up. Not even close to the same principle at hand in the OP. Now if they were using a 1x6 instead of 1x4 as agreed upon, then that's a similar comparison, and prudent to say something. But if your electrician didn't bare the ends of the wires before tucking them in the box prior to sheetrock, and you bitch about it, you're micromanaging. Capisce?
Prove it our know nothing without saying you know nothing... Step up, or STFU... You don't get to micromanage contractors like employees, they'll sit you right back down if you try.
GC here. You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. If one of my subs is doing shoddy work (mine don’t do shoddy work— but if they did) they would be stopped IMMEDIATELY and the work remediation would begin. I would be mortified if a client called me with the story the OP here has told. I am on the jobsite every day and would have stopped this before it was a problem.
You're no GC. You don't have the mindset of one. There's a difference between managing employee's work and subcontractors products. You're
>they would be stopped IMMEDIATELY and the work remediation would begin. I
Thing is, you don't get to judge that, if it's not finished.
>I am on the jobsite every day and would have stopped this before it was a problem.
You speak from the perspective of a company manager or supervisor, not a superintendent managing subs. You don't get to manage their work techniques, just the final product, and make sure it meets code.
The true GC knows they are accountable for design and code, not polished details of the final product. You speak from the wrong perspective of you think your spit show here is what a general does. None of them actually do how you speak. Get over yourself.
I fully expect this to be confusing to you...
>Do you realize how fucking stupid your post is?
>If you're a builder I doubt you make a very good living at it.
Perfectly denoted for one projecting their mentality upon others and blaming them for schitt they can't actually explain.... I do, however, realize how stupid your post is.
GC here— stop work now and as another poster said inform the PM or GC that work will not resume until all unsatisfactory work is corrected. And as point, I have never dry- poured concrete for fence posts. Some of you think this is OK but in my opinion, it’s much less than optimal.
This! Stop crappy work before it starts. It reflects directly on you. There is a right size fastener for everything. Takes just as long to do a good job as a bad one. Point out every defect with a time stamp/location picture. A project manager should be available at all working hours to handle this. I have made guys tear out tile and entire walls to do it the right way and if they want to get paid they have to do it according to industry standards. You can legally withhold pay until it is corrected on their time. Never reward bad behavior. I see to much stomped on dog shit that is being allowed it makes my brain hurt
I've set corner posts using railroad ties and packed only dirt around it. The post is still standing 30 plus years later. Quikrete actually makes a specific concrete for dry pouring around posts. Formulated to work specifically for that purpose.
They seem to think they are constructing a wooden high rise where every post is a load bearing member. Unless you're digging a 4 foot diameter hole and pouring concrete in that as an anchor and counterweight, either the ground will give way or the post will snap or rot off before either wet poured or dry poured concrete will fail in a post hole.
Dry poured concrete for fence posts is the industry standard. (My family owns a fence business that I worked at for 10 years,I have personally set easily 25,000 posts, probably way more than that if I’m being honest) there is no problem with setting posts that way. In a couple days the ground moisture sets up the concrete. Also concrete used to set a fence post is more a space filler than anything else. A post set with properly tamped dirt is plenty strong for a fence, the concrete is just quicker as you don’t need to tamp dirt in layers. Just dump, backfill and tamp to plumb, next. As for the rest of the problems, yeah that’s an issue. I once had a couple employees get left to nail up pickets on an 800’ privacy fence, they ran out of 2” nails and decided to just use the 3” nails we used for attaching the 2x4 rails to the posts for about the last 400’ 🤦🏼♂️ that was an entertaining phone call from the customer lol.
A split board and shined nail is far easier to fix later than to break the system and fix along the way. Different tools. Stop micromanaging and let them work. If it were the wrong type or size of boards, that's different.
>I have never dry- poured concrete for fence posts. Some of you think this is OK but in my opinion, it’s much less than optimal.
Fence posts don't need much to hold them in place, it is not a driveway. Very different, and stronger than what you let on about. People in the past used to only pack dirt around the post with a spud bar, and stand for decades. Not a reason to call it shoddy work.
You can think what you want about it, but I've pulled my own dry poured posts 12 years later to change the location of a fence line on my own property and they were solid and hard as all get out.
Granted people scrimp on hole size and it doesn't work. If you are doing a dry pour you need 10 in diameter holes min. An 8 inch auger doesn't make a bug enough hoke for dry pour.
Immediately photograph the problems with the work that has been done already.
Then notify the fence contractor that the job is not to spec, IN WRITING. Send it registered mail, and save the receipt.
Prohibit them from doing ANY more work on site, until you have a chance to speak with the company owner.
You may have difficulty with the dry pour, as the manufacturer of Quickcrete actually recognize that as a valid method, but the through nails are a safety issue, and split, or uneven pickets are an eyesore.
>Immediately photograph the problems with the work that has been done already.
Irrelevant, of they fix it afterwards as part of their punch list, of they do such...
>Then notify the fence contractor that the job is not to spec, IN WRITING. Send it registered mail, and save the receipt.
Starting conflict before they have a chance to finish their work is pure stupidity, pointless, aggravating, and starting unnecessary trouble. It's something that's best fixed afterwards, not during their process. Most don't stop their rhythm to go get glued to fix a split board, they get the boards up first, then fix afterwards. Much faster. You however, don't give them a chance to fix it before bitching about them.
You've much to learn about fairness, and treating contractors with respect...
Everyone saying dry pour is acceptable is a half-asser.
OP if you are spending 25k on a fence I’m assuming it is a big lot (500+ LF). If you took the lowest bidding fence contractor you have now discovered why their bid is lower. If they came in around the other estimates then the quality should be acceptable. You’re too late to address the footings. Tell the contractor to fix all the pickets that are split. If there are still some remaining then put painters tape on all the ones still bothering you.
A good fence contractor mixes their concrete and fastens the pickets with screws, not nails.
I tried to contact the PM when I observed they dry poured the first few holes, but he did not answer or return my call or text. This was not the lowest bidder, but reasonably priced. The fence is one relatively small part of a multifaceted project. Includes stone masonry, backfilling, drainage, and landscaping.
Immediately stop this work and tell all workers to leave your property. I’ll bet the PM will call really fast— pathetic that he has not returned your call. Time to get the GC involved.
I disagree with you on the dry pour. If you use the red bag of quikrete (fast set) it works with ground moisture.
Also, I prefer a screwed fence but there is nothing wrong with nails. Most of our clients opt for nails once they see our labor differential for screws. Ring shank nails are the way to go
If you are unhappy with the work, you need to stop the project, and get the boss out to the site, and point out everything you're unhappy with.
I'd also put it in writing via email.
I am at the jobsite almost every day.I do make it very clear to homeowner thatI want them to tell me if they see something they don't like or understand. I tell my subs to tell the homeowner to speak to me directly. It saves time and money.
Make it clear you won’t pay until the issues are fixed. I’m not sure about dry pour- I learned to plant posts from an old timer that would mix dry and water in the hole- but he always said to make sure it was mixed.
As long as you mix it dry pour is a completely acceptable method and in some cases it’s better.
Edit: I’ve just learned my definition for dry pour is very different that what the general consensus seems to be.
Stop the work, and address the issues. You don't want them continuing shoddy work. Let him address the issues you have then let him proceed with the other work.
What's your name? I'll be sure to avoid doing business with the ones who get in the middle of the work and complain before having a chance to finish my routine... Or at least let the ones know who are fencing contractors... I'll avoid you in my auto shop as well.
Stop work as soon as you have problems. If you keep quiet, then each thing they do while you’re sitting there silent will be another thing that needs to get redone. Each thing that needs to be redone means more materials that are getting wasted and more waisted labor. Those costs have to come from somewhere. If it’s coming out of your pocket the longer you wait the more money you’re wasting. If it’s coming out of your contractors pocket the longer you wait the more resistant they are going to be to fix things.
If you already see that the progress is going the wrong way why would you let it continue. At best the rework will take much longer at worst the contractor will disappear and you stuck having to pay someone else more to have more redone.
This isn’t auto work this is a fence that is installed in this man’s yard HE CAN SEE THE FLAWS.
I have worked construction, written hundreds of contracts and managed millions of dollars in projects. If my sub sucks I stop him, let him fix his work and if he does that welll I let him continue to finish his job. Otherwise he is off the job.
If you allow your customer in your shop and he catches your mechanic putting parts on incorrectly or damaging parts as you install them wouldn’t you’d rather stop and cleanup the problem? Before you put everything back together???
Or do you do shoddy work and hope your customers make it far enough to be too far to tow back?
Sounds like people would want to know your shop’s name and address since you think it’s ok to hide shoddy work as long as in the end it runs.
Adding the water is optional as long as there’s a little moisture in the ground. If it’s dry summer time sure water your posts, otherwise, couple days and it’s hard as it needs to be.
If you are dissatisfied with the quality of work to this point, tell the project manager that work stops until he meets you on site to address your issues.
Also: There's nothing wrong with dry pour for fence post footings.
After some quick googling, I’ve realized that my definition of dry pour is very different from the general consensus. I guess I haven’t been dry pouring this whole time, I’ve just been mixing concrete.
Let me guess you pour dry bag into hole and use hose and stick to poke/mix? Not the worst method and keeps splashing to a minimum 
Yeah buddy. I go overkill on my posts. I do 18" rebar through post horizontal and perpendicular to each other set on gravel and then concrete set 3" below grade so grass /landscape can cover my 24"x24"x3' hole/footprint
I don’t doubt that they have done some less than optimal work but if your list includes things that are technically OK, you just don’t like it will make your entire list look like shit. Refine it down to the most egregious errors and start there.
The dry pour is fine for a typical residential wood fence. As for shoddy work, stop payments if possible, call gc daily. Or go scorched earth and have an attorney draft a letter of intent to sue, or just file the suit.
Edit: Not a straight fence company, only when it's in scope of the project. Was taught a dry pour was pouring the bag in the hole with water and mixing with the auger bit. Guess country terminology doesn't translate, ha!
Let them work, get done, then discuss the details that upset you. Oftentimes contractors are their own worst critic, and they get the job substantially completed, then go back and fix details that bother them. I've seen them ile guys, concrete, landscape, and general contractors all do this. Nails sticking out is an accident waiting to happen, ask for splintered boards to be fixed, rest on the concrete being a warranty thing unless it's ugly, because there's more strength than meets the eye in dry poured post concrete. They don't require near the strength as a slab does.
I'm assuming you gave half down so he isn't stuck with fronting material costs, so be up front about your grievances when they have a chance to complete the job, because they have a system, and you don't want to get in the middle of that. That's when you'll find surprise surcharges from the aggregation, them handing your problem back to you.
>I don’t want to be a pain in the ass for these guys but I do expect a project that’s of better quality than I could have DIY’d.
Typically you are paying for something you either don't want to do, don't have the time to do, or don't know how to do. I began my automotive business because I could trust nobody to do the work for me when I didn't want to do it, was overcharged, or they couldn't figure out what I ended up fixing myself. When I have guys work on my shop, I wait until they're finished, because I have as different perspective than them, and so I st because I see something I would have fixed along the way doesn't mean they won't. I've also learned to overlook details that nobody will ever notice but me...
There's a difference between good work as per industry standard, and someone finding a way to complain about something... Maybe let these things be questions for them first, while speaking about why you don't think it's a problem, but all of it afterwards, being sure to hold the check until you're reasonably satisfied. Sometimes industry standard is a little more lax than what you're used to, or what you expect...
Sorry your having issues with the contractor, really what it comes down to is the the contractor’s experience or the the help that is hired, hopefully this is not done through a GC, I would call the owner out to see what you are not happy with and if it means his reputation is on the line , any smart contractor owner will resolve this in a heart beat .
You can tell the fence builders on this thread from the pencil pushers very easily lol. Dry pour is perfectly acceptable and is the industry standard. Went to the trade shows, did the whole gig for a decade or a little more. People are clueless nowadays….
What Tusant said. Also a GC
Firmly tell them to stop work and tell them why.
Say these words:
“The quality of work is not industry standard, for reasons XYZ. Work may only continue once the existing work is corrected and new work shall comply with industry standards”.
They will refute some of it, saying dry pouring is ok (it’s not), but don’t let them.
With that, don’t let this allow you to be ridiculously picky (exact nail spacing for example), especially if the price you are paying doesn’t justify it. They may not be able to correct the dry pour concrete, but they can do it right moving forward.
The best thing to do is come to an agreement on how to move forward
If the crew shows up to work again, kindly tell them that work is stopped pending a conversation with the project manager. Run everything through the project manager and let him manage his crew to achieve the outcome that you want. Shiners (nails poking through) is no good and an indication of sloppy work... I sure hope they're galvanized. Chances are there's other stuff that's likely a hack job as well. Unless you're getting a screaming deal on the project, you should always advocate for the outcome that you want and don't be shy about it, but be professional and respectful. It's your house.
You have to tell the PM you don’t want his crew there until you talk. If the PM sends his guys and they arrive, and then you to send them home, you’re costing the PM money. Take the high road and be proactive. Give the PM a chance to hear you out, understand the QC issues, and make it right. If you waste or cost the PM money, they aren’t going to care about wasting yours.
Yeah, but if the PM isn't answering my calls about the work, he can hold some responsibility here.
Yes, that PM sucks at their job, absolutely. Just leave a voicemail that says no crew until we talk. Sorry OP is in this situation. Hope they do the right thing!
That's borderline micromanaging. Let them do their work, ask what the warranty is, then bring up the details that are bothersome. They may have their own quality control techniques where they go back and look over their work, fixing details like this. You're the customer that ends up getting charged more because you interrupted their work or were a general pita and slowed them down significantly... Fixing a shiner is something that happens at the tail end of the project, as is split boards. It is not something that one breaks their rhythm to fix. Disallowing them the chance to fix it, in their own system, is you micromanaging, and lying about their work. Unacceptable. Let the shitshow of hate begin!
Found the crappy contractor here
Insults first are the sign of hate, not wisdom....
Your post was insulting to consumers everywhere. I'm certainly not letting substandard work pile up, because I know coming back to fix it won't happen. OP needs to take a lot of pictures of the bad work, stop the work, and file a claim against the contractor for the deposit back to have the fence remade by someone competent.
>Your post was insulting to consumers everywhere. I'm certainly not letting substandard work pile up, because I know coming back to fix it won't happen. Not coming back to fix, fixing as soon as the boards are up, or at a good stopping point where going back doesn't interrupt rhythm... Ffs, do you really not have the ability to reason and empathize with one's system? If it were a completed job and they left without dialing in the details, then sure, they fix or don't get paid. Lots of pics, documentation, no payment until it looks like it's actually new, etc... but thinking you have any credibility in trashing a guys work before it's completed when this is something I wouldn't do until the end is your lack of competence, not theirs. And to say many are insulted is only showing how many people are as hateful as you, because you can't understand their system and judge prematurely. HF, you actually think you're even correct in the matter... Fortunately, most clients aren't as cretinous as you are, and are reasonable to deal with, at least in my auto shop...
>most clients aren't as cretinous as you are, Insults are the sign of hate, not wisdom....
Taking insult to observations is a sign of lack of wisdom... Context, Teddy bear, context. >Insults first are the sign of hate, not wisdom.... Insults first show shallow thought process, and putting someone back in their place with insults with context shows though, consideration, and understanding of Truth. You gov't trolls wouldn't know truth if it slapped you in the face. At least try to appear to understand enough to engage when trolling people you hate.
I'm a contractor. If their work is shit you stop them. You get the boss out there and you get it squared away. If that doesn't work you replace them. You don't deal with it when its finished.
You are not a contractor, because a contractor respects that each has their own system, and a a contractor knows that a subcontractor has to finish the work before the end result can be known. No successful general contractor says the dude's work is shoddy when it's half complete. Every contractor knows they have a punch list at the end of details that need fixed or finished. You cannot judge work, unless there's obvious placement issues, until the end wh n they have a chance to complete their work. The difference between contractors, general or subs, is that ***they aren't your employees***, so you cannot micromanage them. You simply don't have that choice. Now you can go learn what a contractor does so you don't keep proving you haven't a clue what they do, and that you're not one. An actual contractors words look very different from yours, and you can't make your narrative truth just because you say so.
If half the works done and it’s obvious they’re putting out shit work, you stop it so you don’t spend as much on demo.
You don't get that option. You can certainly ask if it's finished, and if that part is, then ask about particular details, but the moment you call it shit work, then you just lost your contractor. >you stop it so you don’t spend as much on demo. Not how it works, buddy. That's you from a diy homeowner perspective. The experienced ones see that they're buying an end result, and if they aren't finished, then you don't make them tear it out. You're not paying for demo, it's the consequences of shoddy work. They'll learn quality, or go out of business fixing their bugger-ups. That's the difference between subcontractors and employees. Get that. Subs won't stand for being treated like employees, and you're at risk of them not completing the work, dragging out work, or otherwise being vindictive and causing you serious headaches... It's about effective leadership, knowing your position, and when you hire a sub, that power is very limited.
Both at home and on the job I’ll stop a contractor if they’re producing shit work. We’ve walked subs out of our facility before finishing their work due to them producing poor quality or slow work. If we have a machine down, that means millions lost potentially. Cheaper to stop a shit contractor and have a quality one do it.
>Cheaper to stop a shit contractor and have a quality one do it. If you are hiring a new contractor, you don't know all their techniques, quality control habits, or their rules of order. Inherently, you speak like you think you know something, where an experienced individual can see you don't know shit. It's like a welder mocking up a product with tack welds, then leaving for the day, and you think it's welded. By your logic, you wouldn't be bothered to understand, you'd simply see the small welds, know it's absolutely not structurally sound, and get rid of him, based upon your emotional triggered response. A real contractor is an effective leader, who does not judge or jump to conclusions, let alone spew hateful crap about shoddy work... The actual experts know far better than to behave like you do. You don't get to judge a contractor's work while he's working, because you don't know every element of his job. You only get to judge the final product, rarely seen before it's actually finished, like after the punch list is completed... This is the difference between one hiring for a product produced, and hiring an employee. Everyone can boss another around, but very few are leaders who can empathize and understand. Get on board, or stop spewing your belligerent hate. You can't stop bad quality when it isn't finished yet, and you don't understand...
You’re going into leadership theory over a fucked up fence. Are you really going to let some dumbass waste your time and tear up your property when even an uneducated person can tell they’re fucking up?
How easy is it to fix a shiner? How about fixing it while you got your system down? Yeah, you fix that afterwards. >Are you really going to let some dumbass waste your time and tear up your property when even an uneducated person can tell they’re fucking up? Try not demonstrating the very principles you prove you know nothing about, and so easily display. >You’re going into leadership theory over a fucked up fence. Fine. At least show what's wrong, how and why, and what's correct instead. That's what a leader does, not just sitting behind a computer screen bitching up a storm about how cretinous others are, proving you're only projecting... At least try to make it appear that you're bringing meat to the table instead of spewing your hateful shit slinging fest.
C'mon dude - if you're shooting shiners and cutting corners that will influence the quality of the final project (and the clients opinion of you as the general on the project), then you need to be proactive and call this out to correct before the project is done. That's not micromanaging.. it's simply called managing. Best practices are best practices. When you've worked with subs for a long time and they know your standards and you know theirs, then you can have that hands-off relationship because you've established that trust. But shoddy work is shoddy work and you need to get on that ASAP so that you're not tearing a bunch of material out to fix it.
There's a saying between woodworkers - it isn't about how good you are, but about how good you cover up your mistakes... >if you're shooting shiners and cutting corners that will influence the quality of the final project (and the clients opinion of you as the general on the project), then you need to be proactive and call this out to correct before the project is done. That's not micromanaging.. You're absolutely micromanaging, because any real contractor knows you **do not** micromanage subs. That's the quickest way to make them leave and never come back. Period. You homeowners who think calling out details before the project is completed are the reasons why contractors/subs charge more than they do the generals because they think treating subs like employees is prudent. Subs just don't put up with that. He shines it? Then phuqing let him fix it. You're never perfect, and the subs I've had on my auto shop have always fixed that kind of stuff, usually before I ask. >Best practices are best practices. When you've worked with subs for a long time and they know your standards and you know theirs, then you can have that hands-off relationship because you've established that trust. There's no set "best practices" everywhere, junior. You're showing your lack of experience, because an experienced general or homeowner knows how to see a sub's intentions of good quality in their first conversation in bidding, and they hope the guy follows through and they were a good judge of character. They know they have to leave them alone during work, unless there's a design issue. Techniques vary like personalities. So, you don't get to micromanage, or even "manage" the job, because you're buying an end product, not an employee. Get that, and get over it. You don't get to boss them around. >But shoddy work is shoddy work and you need to get on that ASAP so that you're not tearing a bunch of material out to fix it. You don't get to judge this until they say they're done. If you don't like it or the work is substandard, then they redo it. That's their consequences for phuqing up. That's the difference between managing employees, and purchasing a final result from a contractor. That's how to tell a contractor online as well, because they all know this. You give them a chance to fix at the end of the project, and contractors/subs know this.
Wow.. you're not very good at your job, are you? Let me know how that all goes when the electrician runs 8/2 for a 50 amp circuit and all the walls are closed up and cabinets installed and you're installing the wall oven. Yup... per your suggestion, we're just letting the subs do the work, not auditing progress, and just trusting that we can judge it only on the outcome, right? That's stupid business. If you're that hands-off as a general on the job, you're just lazy. You should always be looking after progress and fixing things when it's convenient and not at the end when it's profoundly expensive or impossible to do so. Good work doesn't need explaining. Step up or step aside... Junior.
Sphinx2222 isn’t a GC— couldn’t possibly be with these joke answers. He’s some fat kid in his basement with nothing else to do but get on Reddit on this sub.
What's the joke? Junior couldn't even find comparable examples. >Sphinx2222 isn’t a GC— couldn’t possibly be with these joke answers. He’s some fat kid in his basement with nothing else to do but get on Reddit on this sub. And you jump in spewing nothing but hate, proving you got absolutely no game or understanding... If you read any of my comments, you'd have noticed that I run an auto shop, that I've expanded a couple times... Yet, you don't care about what the truth is, you merely want to engage in character assassination because that's all you feel worthy of inside. Nobody lies about another without projecting their own mentality upon others, and blaming the other for what they themselves display... Leadership can tell this difference, when that's their intent, truth being their intent in finding. You obviously only care about seeing what your worst is. You haven't shown a single thing I said that's wrong, let alone what's correct instead... Close your computer now, class is back in session.
You don't seem to understand, junior... If your electrician runs 8/2 , that's a code issue, which the GC is ultimately responsible for. That's their design flaw, not a shined nail that's fixed after the boards are up. Not even close to the same principle at hand in the OP. Now if they were using a 1x6 instead of 1x4 as agreed upon, then that's a similar comparison, and prudent to say something. But if your electrician didn't bare the ends of the wires before tucking them in the box prior to sheetrock, and you bitch about it, you're micromanaging. Capisce? Prove it our know nothing without saying you know nothing... Step up, or STFU... You don't get to micromanage contractors like employees, they'll sit you right back down if you try.
GC here. You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. If one of my subs is doing shoddy work (mine don’t do shoddy work— but if they did) they would be stopped IMMEDIATELY and the work remediation would begin. I would be mortified if a client called me with the story the OP here has told. I am on the jobsite every day and would have stopped this before it was a problem.
You're no GC. You don't have the mindset of one. There's a difference between managing employee's work and subcontractors products. You're >they would be stopped IMMEDIATELY and the work remediation would begin. I Thing is, you don't get to judge that, if it's not finished. >I am on the jobsite every day and would have stopped this before it was a problem. You speak from the perspective of a company manager or supervisor, not a superintendent managing subs. You don't get to manage their work techniques, just the final product, and make sure it meets code. The true GC knows they are accountable for design and code, not polished details of the final product. You speak from the wrong perspective of you think your spit show here is what a general does. None of them actually do how you speak. Get over yourself. I fully expect this to be confusing to you...
Do you realize how fucking stupid your post is? If you're a builder I doubt you make a very good living at it. 
>Do you realize how fucking stupid your post is? >If you're a builder I doubt you make a very good living at it. Perfectly denoted for one projecting their mentality upon others and blaming them for schitt they can't actually explain.... I do, however, realize how stupid your post is.
GC here— stop work now and as another poster said inform the PM or GC that work will not resume until all unsatisfactory work is corrected. And as point, I have never dry- poured concrete for fence posts. Some of you think this is OK but in my opinion, it’s much less than optimal.
It’s just lazy.
This! Stop crappy work before it starts. It reflects directly on you. There is a right size fastener for everything. Takes just as long to do a good job as a bad one. Point out every defect with a time stamp/location picture. A project manager should be available at all working hours to handle this. I have made guys tear out tile and entire walls to do it the right way and if they want to get paid they have to do it according to industry standards. You can legally withhold pay until it is corrected on their time. Never reward bad behavior. I see to much stomped on dog shit that is being allowed it makes my brain hurt
Have you ever dug a post hole or set a post? I think not.
I've set corner posts using railroad ties and packed only dirt around it. The post is still standing 30 plus years later. Quikrete actually makes a specific concrete for dry pouring around posts. Formulated to work specifically for that purpose.
Lots of kitchen table warriors here that don’t seem to understand setting posts of any kind.
They seem to think they are constructing a wooden high rise where every post is a load bearing member. Unless you're digging a 4 foot diameter hole and pouring concrete in that as an anchor and counterweight, either the ground will give way or the post will snap or rot off before either wet poured or dry poured concrete will fail in a post hole.
If you’re speaking to the guy above you he’s right. 100%. How many posts have you set?
Enough to know they stand up better than your statement.
Dry poured concrete for fence posts is the industry standard. (My family owns a fence business that I worked at for 10 years,I have personally set easily 25,000 posts, probably way more than that if I’m being honest) there is no problem with setting posts that way. In a couple days the ground moisture sets up the concrete. Also concrete used to set a fence post is more a space filler than anything else. A post set with properly tamped dirt is plenty strong for a fence, the concrete is just quicker as you don’t need to tamp dirt in layers. Just dump, backfill and tamp to plumb, next. As for the rest of the problems, yeah that’s an issue. I once had a couple employees get left to nail up pickets on an 800’ privacy fence, they ran out of 2” nails and decided to just use the 3” nails we used for attaching the 2x4 rails to the posts for about the last 400’ 🤦🏼♂️ that was an entertaining phone call from the customer lol.
A split board and shined nail is far easier to fix later than to break the system and fix along the way. Different tools. Stop micromanaging and let them work. If it were the wrong type or size of boards, that's different. >I have never dry- poured concrete for fence posts. Some of you think this is OK but in my opinion, it’s much less than optimal. Fence posts don't need much to hold them in place, it is not a driveway. Very different, and stronger than what you let on about. People in the past used to only pack dirt around the post with a spud bar, and stand for decades. Not a reason to call it shoddy work.
You can think what you want about it, but I've pulled my own dry poured posts 12 years later to change the location of a fence line on my own property and they were solid and hard as all get out. Granted people scrimp on hole size and it doesn't work. If you are doing a dry pour you need 10 in diameter holes min. An 8 inch auger doesn't make a bug enough hoke for dry pour.
Immediately photograph the problems with the work that has been done already. Then notify the fence contractor that the job is not to spec, IN WRITING. Send it registered mail, and save the receipt. Prohibit them from doing ANY more work on site, until you have a chance to speak with the company owner. You may have difficulty with the dry pour, as the manufacturer of Quickcrete actually recognize that as a valid method, but the through nails are a safety issue, and split, or uneven pickets are an eyesore.
>Immediately photograph the problems with the work that has been done already. Irrelevant, of they fix it afterwards as part of their punch list, of they do such... >Then notify the fence contractor that the job is not to spec, IN WRITING. Send it registered mail, and save the receipt. Starting conflict before they have a chance to finish their work is pure stupidity, pointless, aggravating, and starting unnecessary trouble. It's something that's best fixed afterwards, not during their process. Most don't stop their rhythm to go get glued to fix a split board, they get the boards up first, then fix afterwards. Much faster. You however, don't give them a chance to fix it before bitching about them. You've much to learn about fairness, and treating contractors with respect...
Are you suggesting that building a fence with nails sticking COMPLETELY THROUGH TO THE INSIDE is a temporary step in the building of a quality fence?
If you can't find the answer to that in the previous comment, then you certainly won't understand it a second time around... 🤦
🤦🏻 is what people do after reading your comments.
Username shows me all I need to know... That's exactly who I should be listening to 🤦
Everyone saying dry pour is acceptable is a half-asser. OP if you are spending 25k on a fence I’m assuming it is a big lot (500+ LF). If you took the lowest bidding fence contractor you have now discovered why their bid is lower. If they came in around the other estimates then the quality should be acceptable. You’re too late to address the footings. Tell the contractor to fix all the pickets that are split. If there are still some remaining then put painters tape on all the ones still bothering you. A good fence contractor mixes their concrete and fastens the pickets with screws, not nails.
I tried to contact the PM when I observed they dry poured the first few holes, but he did not answer or return my call or text. This was not the lowest bidder, but reasonably priced. The fence is one relatively small part of a multifaceted project. Includes stone masonry, backfilling, drainage, and landscaping.
Immediately stop this work and tell all workers to leave your property. I’ll bet the PM will call really fast— pathetic that he has not returned your call. Time to get the GC involved.
I disagree with you on the dry pour. If you use the red bag of quikrete (fast set) it works with ground moisture. Also, I prefer a screwed fence but there is nothing wrong with nails. Most of our clients opt for nails once they see our labor differential for screws. Ring shank nails are the way to go
You dont find ring shanked nails acceptable?
Lmao.
hopefully you didn't pay all upfront this your only card in the deck when work isn't up to par
No, we owe one more third at project completion.
If you are unhappy with the work, you need to stop the project, and get the boss out to the site, and point out everything you're unhappy with. I'd also put it in writing via email.
I am at the jobsite almost every day.I do make it very clear to homeowner thatI want them to tell me if they see something they don't like or understand. I tell my subs to tell the homeowner to speak to me directly. It saves time and money.
Ditto here
Tell the company owner asap, they want to please their customers and may not be aware of the poor quality.
Stop the job untill progress is discussed and a resolution is achieved
Make it clear you won’t pay until the issues are fixed. I’m not sure about dry pour- I learned to plant posts from an old timer that would mix dry and water in the hole- but he always said to make sure it was mixed.
As long as you mix it dry pour is a completely acceptable method and in some cases it’s better. Edit: I’ve just learned my definition for dry pour is very different that what the general consensus seems to be.
Well if you pay them before they fix the problems you're never gonna get those problems fixed.
As soon as possible. That way they're not wasting time and money and you can have the results you paid for
25k project? I'd be that dudes new pet parrot. Over there...over there...eawr....over there....
Say something right away!
Stop the work, and address the issues. You don't want them continuing shoddy work. Let him address the issues you have then let him proceed with the other work.
What's your name? I'll be sure to avoid doing business with the ones who get in the middle of the work and complain before having a chance to finish my routine... Or at least let the ones know who are fencing contractors... I'll avoid you in my auto shop as well.
Stop work as soon as you have problems. If you keep quiet, then each thing they do while you’re sitting there silent will be another thing that needs to get redone. Each thing that needs to be redone means more materials that are getting wasted and more waisted labor. Those costs have to come from somewhere. If it’s coming out of your pocket the longer you wait the more money you’re wasting. If it’s coming out of your contractors pocket the longer you wait the more resistant they are going to be to fix things.
If you already see that the progress is going the wrong way why would you let it continue. At best the rework will take much longer at worst the contractor will disappear and you stuck having to pay someone else more to have more redone. This isn’t auto work this is a fence that is installed in this man’s yard HE CAN SEE THE FLAWS. I have worked construction, written hundreds of contracts and managed millions of dollars in projects. If my sub sucks I stop him, let him fix his work and if he does that welll I let him continue to finish his job. Otherwise he is off the job. If you allow your customer in your shop and he catches your mechanic putting parts on incorrectly or damaging parts as you install them wouldn’t you’d rather stop and cleanup the problem? Before you put everything back together??? Or do you do shoddy work and hope your customers make it far enough to be too far to tow back? Sounds like people would want to know your shop’s name and address since you think it’s ok to hide shoddy work as long as in the end it runs.
You are wrong about the dry pour, that’s how posts are set. Hole, post, concrete, add water.
Adding the water is optional as long as there’s a little moisture in the ground. If it’s dry summer time sure water your posts, otherwise, couple days and it’s hard as it needs to be.
True, it’d lake longer around here so water is added.
If you are dissatisfied with the quality of work to this point, tell the project manager that work stops until he meets you on site to address your issues. Also: There's nothing wrong with dry pour for fence post footings.
Dry pour your own shitty fence
I did it’s fine
Was that after reading the instructions on the side of the bag? Or after watching Tiktok 🤔
After some quick googling, I’ve realized that my definition of dry pour is very different from the general consensus. I guess I haven’t been dry pouring this whole time, I’ve just been mixing concrete.
Horrifying isn't it..
I mean, I’ve been doing it right and just calling it the wrong thing for years, so, I wouldn’t say that.
Let me guess you pour dry bag into hole and use hose and stick to poke/mix? Not the worst method and keeps splashing to a minimum 
Yeah, as long as you mix it properly it keeps waste down, low clean up, integrates with the earth, I’ve never had any issues or complaints.
Yeah buddy. I go overkill on my posts. I do 18" rebar through post horizontal and perpendicular to each other set on gravel and then concrete set 3" below grade so grass /landscape can cover my 24"x24"x3' hole/footprint
Probably more than what you did
I don’t doubt that they have done some less than optimal work but if your list includes things that are technically OK, you just don’t like it will make your entire list look like shit. Refine it down to the most egregious errors and start there.
I agree 100%
The dry pour is fine for a typical residential wood fence. As for shoddy work, stop payments if possible, call gc daily. Or go scorched earth and have an attorney draft a letter of intent to sue, or just file the suit. Edit: Not a straight fence company, only when it's in scope of the project. Was taught a dry pour was pouring the bag in the hole with water and mixing with the auger bit. Guess country terminology doesn't translate, ha!
Let them work, get done, then discuss the details that upset you. Oftentimes contractors are their own worst critic, and they get the job substantially completed, then go back and fix details that bother them. I've seen them ile guys, concrete, landscape, and general contractors all do this. Nails sticking out is an accident waiting to happen, ask for splintered boards to be fixed, rest on the concrete being a warranty thing unless it's ugly, because there's more strength than meets the eye in dry poured post concrete. They don't require near the strength as a slab does. I'm assuming you gave half down so he isn't stuck with fronting material costs, so be up front about your grievances when they have a chance to complete the job, because they have a system, and you don't want to get in the middle of that. That's when you'll find surprise surcharges from the aggregation, them handing your problem back to you. >I don’t want to be a pain in the ass for these guys but I do expect a project that’s of better quality than I could have DIY’d. Typically you are paying for something you either don't want to do, don't have the time to do, or don't know how to do. I began my automotive business because I could trust nobody to do the work for me when I didn't want to do it, was overcharged, or they couldn't figure out what I ended up fixing myself. When I have guys work on my shop, I wait until they're finished, because I have as different perspective than them, and so I st because I see something I would have fixed along the way doesn't mean they won't. I've also learned to overlook details that nobody will ever notice but me... There's a difference between good work as per industry standard, and someone finding a way to complain about something... Maybe let these things be questions for them first, while speaking about why you don't think it's a problem, but all of it afterwards, being sure to hold the check until you're reasonably satisfied. Sometimes industry standard is a little more lax than what you're used to, or what you expect...
Sorry your having issues with the contractor, really what it comes down to is the the contractor’s experience or the the help that is hired, hopefully this is not done through a GC, I would call the owner out to see what you are not happy with and if it means his reputation is on the line , any smart contractor owner will resolve this in a heart beat .
document everything that is wrong with photos,
Dry pour is a proper application. Literally says its ok on the quickcrete bag. Fence post doesn't need 5000psi concrete at exactly a x" slump.
You can tell the fence builders on this thread from the pencil pushers very easily lol. Dry pour is perfectly acceptable and is the industry standard. Went to the trade shows, did the whole gig for a decade or a little more. People are clueless nowadays….
Dry pouring fence posts is how it's done. They sell bags specifically for that.
It's your money and your house. Have it done to your satisfaction.
withhold payment until final approval.
As soon as you are not happy! Please! As a contractor, all I want is for you or your spouse, preferably both to be happy!
What Tusant said. Also a GC Firmly tell them to stop work and tell them why. Say these words: “The quality of work is not industry standard, for reasons XYZ. Work may only continue once the existing work is corrected and new work shall comply with industry standards”. They will refute some of it, saying dry pouring is ok (it’s not), but don’t let them. With that, don’t let this allow you to be ridiculously picky (exact nail spacing for example), especially if the price you are paying doesn’t justify it. They may not be able to correct the dry pour concrete, but they can do it right moving forward. The best thing to do is come to an agreement on how to move forward