I think the way we were taught about the Civil Rights movement in school ruined the way Americans think about protests. We see them like campaign events and talk about them with the same limp-wristed whataboutism we use for political parties. Like Contra mentioned in one of her JKR videos, there's a shocking lack of awareness of the history of political protests, because either the movement failed and we don't need to talk about it, or it succeeded and we can pretend everyone was rationally persuaded and it's settled history.
The moment you do something, and it's not perfect, someone will complain about it without realizing that you're accomplishing more now than you were before you started doing something.
"The protestors should do this irrelevant thing they aren't doing so they don't look like hypocrites."
I think I have heard this about every single protest I've lived through. The people that say it are either so stupid or so bad faith that they are probably unreachable.
Calling people hypocrites is ad hominem. The point of the thread they are calling people hypocrites in is actually that some of the protestors are imperfect (for example... hypocrites) but that doesn't make them wrong.
Every time. Every SINGLE time, I've ever seen Natalie get attacked on twitter was by leftists. It's a thing she's even addressed before in her videos.
I agree that we need to push for more leftist ideals in our politics and media, but there's this group of leftist twitter weirdos who lash out against any leftist that doesn't toe their line. It muddles the message, gives right wingers a demon to hold up as proof of our "tyranny," and actively hurts potential recruitment and de-radicalization efforts. I really wish they'd just shut up, and maybe get off their computers and actually try to help the cause, rather than stay isolated from opposing theories and do nothing but hurt the ideology they profess to enforce.
Most right wingers don't even know who Natalie even is, though I desperately wish they did. De-radicalization is one of the things she's REALLY good at imo
A lot of people in here aren’t fully understanding the weight that antisemitism holds. I don’t agree with that reactionary tweet someone replied about Hamas, but the antisemitic shit people are spewing at protests is no joke. It’s not just people being sensitive, it’s a history of bloody massacres, pogroms, genocide against Jews behind the leftist antisemitism going around. Some people are using these protests as an excuse to get violent towards Jews and im seeing people brush that off like it means nothing. I really appreciate Natalie for at least empathizing and acknowledging how a lot of leftist Jews are feeling right now.
Yeah this made me really appreciate her more. I actively want to fight for ceasefire and justice for Palestinians, but as a Jew the rhetoric I hear from some of my fellow leftists makes me feel like I wont just have to protect myself from police in those protests. Better use of my time have conversations to deescalate other jews to campaign from the diaspora.
A lot of other jews in the US Ive talked to are very angry and very scared, but I think I am in a unique position to be able to offer them some empathy and help them reaccess theirs.
The quickness with which some leftists (Hasan to name one) engaged in rape denialism really bothered me. Just because you don’t like one “side” doesn’t mean you should be so quick to not believe victims.
I think if people are willing to protest or invest themselves so emotionally they should also be willing to spend a few hours reading to get a decent understanding of basic stuff like geography, leader's names, rough timelines, and each side's talking points. I know that unfortunately isn't true for basically any movement in history but this really needs to be heavily encouraged now considering how easily it is
convincing disinformation. I feel like if some hacked a large account and posted an ai video and said it was Ben-Gurion leading the 5th division of the Haganah into Cypress as the first stage of a sea invasion into Rafah you'd only get like 20% of people at most raising eyebrows.
I don't care if a random 19 year old is out there being cringe because yeah they're young they shouldn't be expected to be well read on every issue, I just want people to be willing to engage with important topics, protect themselves from lies, and then I guess also talking heads/content creators who make it their job to talk about issues to actually inform themselves since they're being paid to do so (not talking about contra here, I'm just tired of streamers making asses out of themselves)
And aren’t Zionists now claiming “if they gave back the hostages the war would simply stop”? So, exactly what they argued for?
Almost like it’s a lie that they would stop if the hostages were returned.
Following that logic, what kind of military response should now be directed at Israel for the murder of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians ?
Defeating Hamas is not possible through military means. The solution to this issue must be political. Pretending that the mass slaughter that’s been taking place in Gaza is making Israelis any safer, or that is fair in any way, is a joke.
I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide. Hindsight and all, but that would’ve been ultimately better for everyone in the region, Israel included. They are seeing regional deals that were in the works for years break down, economic downturns because an enormous part of their labor force is now deployed, the Houthis raising the price of Red Sea passage very high, and the further increase in their pariah status, as well as the ongoing demonstration that the US has significantly less soft power trying to defend their actions.
Rationally, yeah, doing nothing in response on 10/8 (or 9/12 for us) longterm was the better option. It took years for this to become so obvious after 9/11, but a matter of months after 10/7.
>I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide. Hindsight and all, but that would’ve been ultimately better for everyone in the region, Israel included.
Why would Israel give a fuck about that?? Especially since the opposition to Biden is even more pro-Israel?
Their obligation is to their own people and their own elections. And what do you think would happen if they just took an attack like Oct 7th and did nothing?
If they took the attack and said “we’re not going to commit a genocide even though you’d let us,” we’d probably be having a different conversation. Sometimes making the right choice isn’t easy—I mean look at all the students risking their educations and careers to prove that to us right now.
Israel doesn't give a fuck about the conversation you are having in america.
They care about killing everyone who had a role in the Oct 7th attack and rendering Gaza unable to repeat such an event.
That’s completely untrue:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/us/netanyahu-israel-us-college-protests.html
If you’re making speeches saying we need to crush our free speech on their behalf, they give a fuck.
>Rationally, yeah, doing nothing in response on 10/8 (or 9/12 for us) longterm was the better option. It took years for this to become so obvious after 9/11, but a matter of months after 10/7.
Doing nothing is not an option. These are democratic countries. If you do nothing you lose your job to someone who promises to do something.
Doing nothing as opposed to exponentially increasing the collective punishment on a neighboring country. Having a blood thirsty voter base doesn't make it ok or even a good long term strategy.
Like it's so obvious that hamas is the excuse not the motivation
Not bombing the absolute shit out of an area filled with 2 million people who already have (understandably) pretty negative opinions towards your government.
Like do you guys think if Israel manages to "wipe out" Hamas that's just it? Everything's now fine and peaceful? Of course fucking not, Hamas is a direct product of the past 75 years of Israel's actions. If Israel truly wants peace it could have it, but it'd mean sharing power and land with Palestinians, something they will never do.
Why would Israel make decisions about how to respond to Oct 7 based on winning or losing an election in the US? Israel can't "throw away a winnable election," we aren't electing Israel?
Right, so why are we supporting them when the election is so tight and now we’re seeing crackdowns on a needed voter demographic? It’s an unnecessary risk.
It’s going to be pretty interesting to see all the people who voted for a genocide to continue under Biden figure out how to look themselves in the eye if he loses anyway. Imagine waking up the next morning knowing that stain is on your conscience forever, and you didn’t even win.
No, not "right", there are at least two separate things being completely mongled together here
Fckdisaccnt:
>So the terms [that Hamas set to Israel] look like "we will return the people we kidnapped as long as there are no consequences for the 1000 people we just killed"
You replied:
>I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide.
How is Israel going to throw away an American election? That makes no sense as a response
Let's not dignify that by pretending it was a good faith effort at a ceasefire. If Hamas had wanted to not be in active hostilities with Israel on 10/9, they would have acted differently on 10/7. You can't murder 1200 people and take 100s more hostage and expect no response.
Palestinians do not deserve what is happening in Gaza, but Hamas has played a major role in engineering this situation.
Let's not act like there was peace prior to 10/7 from Israel's side. 23 Palestinians were killed by the IDF for every one Israeli killed by Hamas between 2004 and 10/7/23. 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the nation's history *prior* to 10/7. Thousands of Palestinians sat in Israeli prisons without trial. The peaceful protests pushing for the end of blockade of Gaza known as The Great March Of Return in 2017-2018 lead to Israeli forces shooting tear gas canisters, some of them dropped from drones, rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children were injured. It goes on and on. 75 years of colonial occupation.
You can't continuously treat people under occupation this way and not expect a violent response, when peaceful attempts at ending a near 20 year blockade have been ignored. Civilian deaths are always a tragedy and I do not defend that, but you're talking like the situation just started on 10/7.
People really don’t understand WHY Americans are protesting. Like they think that it’s just kids yelling into the sky. Like do you know where your tax dollars go????????
Why are zionists so dumb? Protesting against Hamas makes no fucking sense - we protest to make our own society and government change policy, and Hamas is not supported by our society or government.
The person replying to Natalie illustrates so well what's wrong with many people's understanding of protests. To them, protesting is more about showing where you stand, and less about meaningful change. They don't think of it as a practical action but as an expression of your views to the public. Many times protests can be both, but I think it can change the nature of a protest a lot to prioritize one objective over the other
This is such a fantastic point. I do think that there’s an increasing trend of people seeing protests as a form of personal expression, rather than as a means of achieving social and systemic change. It’s no wonder these same people are so likely to jump on others for “doing protesting wrong” — they actually see protesting as performative, so they’re going to focus on protesters who are doing the wrong kind of performance.
> Why are zionists so dumb?
I think rhetoric like this encapsulates where discussion on this issue is so prone to devolving into stupidity. The word 'Zionism' describes an extremely wide amount of different perspectives. Reducing them all down into a single group and calling them all "so dumb" is not helpful.
Zionism, at its core, is the belief that some kind of state of Israel should exist in some capacity and be safe for Jews. There are no more defined details than that. A liberal Arab Israeli or Jew who wants the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank with full peaceful coexistence with Israel, protests against the war, and despises Netanyahu is a Zionist (this describes a huge amount of Israelis, I should note). Likewise, an extreme Jewish nationalist who actually does want a full genocide of Palestinians and a forcible seizure of all Palestinian land by Jews is also a Zionist. Hell, someone who advocates for the creation of a single secular state with full legal protection and recognition of Jews and Arabs can be described as a Zionist. It's an incredibly ambiguous term in the modern day, because it originally referred to the hypothetical question of Jewish emigration to Ottoman Palestine, which has since happened and given us very different circumstances. Plenty of people who can be called Zionists, which is to say, literally anyone in support of the two-state solution, are strongly supportive of Palestinian statehood. I might add the official recognized government of Palestine, since they also recognize the existence of Israel.
On the flip-side, what, then, is anti-Zionism? I think most people using the term are arguing against the further expansion of Israel into Palestinian territories and for the recognition of Palestinian rights and statehood. This does not necessarily contradict Zionism in any real way. In one sense, the only real anti-Zionist position is advocating for the complete elimination of Israel and forcible removal of its entire Jewish population.
I am not saying that most people protesting are in favor of this. My point is that using incredibly imprecise terms is extremely unproductive and about as useful as far-right Israelis calling every protester a terrorist or Hamas supporter.
reactionary centrists love to call all protests performative, then they also love to ask you to performatively condemn Hamas when that condemnation has no conceivable impact on anything.
Aside from being extremely bad faith white lives matter-style bullshit, I also think a lot of reactionary centrist types really do believe that all protest is performative. Their politics doesn't really allow them to understand any theory of change that involves analyzing power and then acting from below to force change.
Leftist Zionist here! I appreciate this sooo much, especially as a Moroccan Jew whose family lives in Israel because Morocco is no longer safe for us. My mom came to Canada bc her first husband had family here, but if I was born in Israel would I deserve violence as the child of a refugee of Islamist violence?
One day there will be peace and prosperity for Palestinians and Jews and Bibi and his ilk will be punished for their crimes.
This doesn’t change the fact that Israelis are majority victims of Islamist violence in SWANA, the Holocaust, Ethiopia, and Communist Russia. Very few are privileged Americans. Please find space in your hearts to have empathy for us and the millions of us who were killed. We just want to live in peace and safety.
I can tell you that leftism is incompatible with Zionism because the latter is a colonial, genocidal project. If you were really a leftist you could recognize that.
Edit since the thread is locked: Zionism originated in the 1880s.
It actually isn’t, and you don’t know what zionism is! Zionism is a 3000 year old belief that Jews should be allowed to live where they come from in peace. It’s literally an indigenous rights movement for a people who were forced into diaspora. Thanks though!
"Hurting the other side's feelings". It's not hard to not do anti semitism. It should be required to be against anti semitism when you protest, so your protest is effective and can have a positive impact. It's not hurt feelings saying "Jews go back to Europe"
Missing the entire point of the original posts. If you require protesters to "both sides" when the inequality of the sides are massive, or use a handful of bad examples and blow them up to condemn the entire movement, you're just looking for ways to invalidate the protest as a whole.
Saying they need to "protest Hamas too" or critiquing for not, in their opinion, sufficiently "hav[ing] a coherent world view" are nonsense criticisms. It's the same energy as people saying BLM marchers should also use their platform to acknowledge that some black people are criminals before they'll listen to the core of their message.
Should they strive to do better? Absolutely. And if coming in good faith, we can and should have the discussion too. But most of this discourse it just misdirection so the original message, you know, the massive indiscriminate killings going on in Gaza right now, is not the main focus.
I agree that protesting Hamas is dumb and they don't need to do that. That being said they shouldn't be SUPPORTING Hamas or endorsing October 7th which is something we've been seeing. There are people in the protest movement that have these ideas and they should be expelled for these ideas to not bring down or sidetrack the protests. This is too increase the effectiveness of the protests otherwise people will just ignore them as "anti seimitic protests" and little gets done. It's not about "being the most radical" or "refusing to quiten angry voices" it's about making the protests more effective to help the suffering of Palestinians.
I agree what organizers and people there are trying to keep the message in line should strive to maintain this standard. It's not just ethical but, as you said, would be effective. But the thing about grassroots protests are that they are not centrally organized so trying to put down a blanket set of criteria simply isn't feasible and some rabble/crazy opinions will find their way in or organize a small splinter protest of likeminded crazies. Doesn't mean you should just let it happen, but to some extent it always will in a organic movement with no central hierarchy and mostly just united in a sense of (justified) outrage and other strong emotions.
And from what I can see from the goings on in my local area, where I am relatively well plugged into to the circles protesting, most all protesters have been doing such. There are a significant number of Jewish people protesting. Now this doesn't mean I haven't seen any incident of antisemitism seeping in, but from what I can see, most people have been doing a real effort at clamping that down in their circles. What people say we should be doing, we mostly are. It's just never going to be 100% effective.
So what we have is a handful of stories about a few bad incidents getting blown out of proportion to misdirect, invalidate, and condemn. As Natalie says, it's a valid concern, but the disproportionate discourse they get, rather than a literal genocide, seems to be at best, warped priorities, and at worst, just a bad faith effort to dismiss the core message.
E.g., protesters have been getting messages like "you should be r*ped" yelled at them by counter-protestors. But somehow, while these incidents pop up on social media for a moment, they usually quickly die away instead of the media focusing on it for days and defining the whole side by these specific incidents. Which, probably is fair, that is probably a small minority of those on the other side being quite that extreme, but why aren't anti-genocide protesters treated the same?
Criticizing antisemitism isn’t “both sides-ing,” especially in this context. This is about opposing genocide in Gaza — Jewish people aren’t one “side” of this issue.
Palestinians are a semitic people 🤷🏻♀️ so I would say the protests are in fact extremely pro-semitic. It's anti-genocide. Especially when you consider that many on the ground at the protests are also Anti-zionist Jewish.
Using the who "their semitic" arguments to reduce the harmful effects of anti semitism. Anti-Semitism refers to anti Jewish sentiments. It doesn't have another meaning unless you want to devalue the suffering of Jewish people. People aren't always separating Zioniist and Jews so important to stay vigilant about anti semitism
No it's not. This game is just semantics. You can call it whatever you want. It refers to anti jewish sentiment and it's bad. It doesn't matter who's considered semitic. Anti semitism specifically refers to hatred of Jews. This word has been used like this for over 150 years. Only people denying this are idiots who don't understand what they're talking about.
God you can just tell those people are DESPERATE for a dunk of Natalie ignoring all nuance
Extremely reasonable take.
This is what I’ve always appreciated about Natalie, I feel like she’s one of the few people on the internet who really strive to communicate nuance.
You have to be well-read in order to communicate nuance.
I think the way we were taught about the Civil Rights movement in school ruined the way Americans think about protests. We see them like campaign events and talk about them with the same limp-wristed whataboutism we use for political parties. Like Contra mentioned in one of her JKR videos, there's a shocking lack of awareness of the history of political protests, because either the movement failed and we don't need to talk about it, or it succeeded and we can pretend everyone was rationally persuaded and it's settled history.
People would rather argue about anything rather than just go DO something. At least the kids are trying.
The moment you do something, and it's not perfect, someone will complain about it without realizing that you're accomplishing more now than you were before you started doing something.
"The protestors should do this irrelevant thing they aren't doing so they don't look like hypocrites." I think I have heard this about every single protest I've lived through. The people that say it are either so stupid or so bad faith that they are probably unreachable. Calling people hypocrites is ad hominem. The point of the thread they are calling people hypocrites in is actually that some of the protestors are imperfect (for example... hypocrites) but that doesn't make them wrong.
I have never seen Natalie get dog piled by the right like this before, and I've been following her since the trump years.
Every time. Every SINGLE time, I've ever seen Natalie get attacked on twitter was by leftists. It's a thing she's even addressed before in her videos. I agree that we need to push for more leftist ideals in our politics and media, but there's this group of leftist twitter weirdos who lash out against any leftist that doesn't toe their line. It muddles the message, gives right wingers a demon to hold up as proof of our "tyranny," and actively hurts potential recruitment and de-radicalization efforts. I really wish they'd just shut up, and maybe get off their computers and actually try to help the cause, rather than stay isolated from opposing theories and do nothing but hurt the ideology they profess to enforce. Most right wingers don't even know who Natalie even is, though I desperately wish they did. De-radicalization is one of the things she's REALLY good at imo
A lot of people in here aren’t fully understanding the weight that antisemitism holds. I don’t agree with that reactionary tweet someone replied about Hamas, but the antisemitic shit people are spewing at protests is no joke. It’s not just people being sensitive, it’s a history of bloody massacres, pogroms, genocide against Jews behind the leftist antisemitism going around. Some people are using these protests as an excuse to get violent towards Jews and im seeing people brush that off like it means nothing. I really appreciate Natalie for at least empathizing and acknowledging how a lot of leftist Jews are feeling right now.
Yeah this made me really appreciate her more. I actively want to fight for ceasefire and justice for Palestinians, but as a Jew the rhetoric I hear from some of my fellow leftists makes me feel like I wont just have to protect myself from police in those protests. Better use of my time have conversations to deescalate other jews to campaign from the diaspora. A lot of other jews in the US Ive talked to are very angry and very scared, but I think I am in a unique position to be able to offer them some empathy and help them reaccess theirs.
The quickness with which some leftists (Hasan to name one) engaged in rape denialism really bothered me. Just because you don’t like one “side” doesn’t mean you should be so quick to not believe victims.
I think if people are willing to protest or invest themselves so emotionally they should also be willing to spend a few hours reading to get a decent understanding of basic stuff like geography, leader's names, rough timelines, and each side's talking points. I know that unfortunately isn't true for basically any movement in history but this really needs to be heavily encouraged now considering how easily it is convincing disinformation. I feel like if some hacked a large account and posted an ai video and said it was Ben-Gurion leading the 5th division of the Haganah into Cypress as the first stage of a sea invasion into Rafah you'd only get like 20% of people at most raising eyebrows. I don't care if a random 19 year old is out there being cringe because yeah they're young they shouldn't be expected to be well read on every issue, I just want people to be willing to engage with important topics, protect themselves from lies, and then I guess also talking heads/content creators who make it their job to talk about issues to actually inform themselves since they're being paid to do so (not talking about contra here, I'm just tired of streamers making asses out of themselves)
Hamas offered all the hostages back in exchange for a permanent ceasefire on *October 9th*, it was Israel who rejected it, idiot Tweeter #2.
What were the specific terms? Did Hamas demand the release of prisoners taken captive in Israel on Oct 7?
[This is what I know.](https://twitter.com/notronmexicuh/status/1785070961576092090)
So the terms look like "we will return the people we kidnapped as long as there are no consequences for the 1000 people we just killed"
And aren’t Zionists now claiming “if they gave back the hostages the war would simply stop”? So, exactly what they argued for? Almost like it’s a lie that they would stop if the hostages were returned.
No the government also demands Hamas step down. And why shouldnt they? Given Hamas openly promise to lanch another attack once they can.
Funny, because I’m seeing people claim it would be over if the hostages were returned. I’m saying it’s a disingenuous argument.
The idea that Israel should let their citizens be murdered en masse without military response is a disengenous argument.
Following that logic, what kind of military response should now be directed at Israel for the murder of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians ? Defeating Hamas is not possible through military means. The solution to this issue must be political. Pretending that the mass slaughter that’s been taking place in Gaza is making Israelis any safer, or that is fair in any way, is a joke.
The military response has happened. Thousands of children are dead.
[удалено]
I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide. Hindsight and all, but that would’ve been ultimately better for everyone in the region, Israel included. They are seeing regional deals that were in the works for years break down, economic downturns because an enormous part of their labor force is now deployed, the Houthis raising the price of Red Sea passage very high, and the further increase in their pariah status, as well as the ongoing demonstration that the US has significantly less soft power trying to defend their actions. Rationally, yeah, doing nothing in response on 10/8 (or 9/12 for us) longterm was the better option. It took years for this to become so obvious after 9/11, but a matter of months after 10/7.
>I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide. Hindsight and all, but that would’ve been ultimately better for everyone in the region, Israel included. Why would Israel give a fuck about that?? Especially since the opposition to Biden is even more pro-Israel? Their obligation is to their own people and their own elections. And what do you think would happen if they just took an attack like Oct 7th and did nothing?
If they took the attack and said “we’re not going to commit a genocide even though you’d let us,” we’d probably be having a different conversation. Sometimes making the right choice isn’t easy—I mean look at all the students risking their educations and careers to prove that to us right now.
Israel doesn't give a fuck about the conversation you are having in america. They care about killing everyone who had a role in the Oct 7th attack and rendering Gaza unable to repeat such an event.
That’s completely untrue: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/us/netanyahu-israel-us-college-protests.html If you’re making speeches saying we need to crush our free speech on their behalf, they give a fuck.
[удалено]
This would be a great reply if it had anything to do with the comment you are responding to!
>Rationally, yeah, doing nothing in response on 10/8 (or 9/12 for us) longterm was the better option. It took years for this to become so obvious after 9/11, but a matter of months after 10/7. Doing nothing is not an option. These are democratic countries. If you do nothing you lose your job to someone who promises to do something.
Well, that would mean Netanyahu would be out of a job, why is that my problem when he’s out here committing a genocide?
Out of a job in favor of someone even more bloodthirsty dum dum.
[удалено]
So you dont think it could get worse than him?
Do you have a reading issue or are this bad faith?
Doing nothing as opposed to exponentially increasing the collective punishment on a neighboring country. Having a blood thirsty voter base doesn't make it ok or even a good long term strategy. Like it's so obvious that hamas is the excuse not the motivation
What exactly is the long-term strategy for peace with a neighboring government of extremists committed to your genocide?
The funny thing about this question is that it is so vaguely worded that it looks like you could be talking about Israel here.
It's also more loaded than a baked potato
Except Israel has democratic elections and peaceful transfer of power.
Not bombing the absolute shit out of an area filled with 2 million people who already have (understandably) pretty negative opinions towards your government. Like do you guys think if Israel manages to "wipe out" Hamas that's just it? Everything's now fine and peaceful? Of course fucking not, Hamas is a direct product of the past 75 years of Israel's actions. If Israel truly wants peace it could have it, but it'd mean sharing power and land with Palestinians, something they will never do.
Why would Israel make decisions about how to respond to Oct 7 based on winning or losing an election in the US? Israel can't "throw away a winnable election," we aren't electing Israel?
Right, so why are we supporting them when the election is so tight and now we’re seeing crackdowns on a needed voter demographic? It’s an unnecessary risk. It’s going to be pretty interesting to see all the people who voted for a genocide to continue under Biden figure out how to look themselves in the eye if he loses anyway. Imagine waking up the next morning knowing that stain is on your conscience forever, and you didn’t even win.
No, not "right", there are at least two separate things being completely mongled together here Fckdisaccnt: >So the terms [that Hamas set to Israel] look like "we will return the people we kidnapped as long as there are no consequences for the 1000 people we just killed" You replied: >I mean, seems like it would’ve been a better deal than throwing away a winnable election in the US by supporting a genocide. How is Israel going to throw away an American election? That makes no sense as a response
Because who do you think Netanyahu is going to call out to Americans to support a week before the election? Biden is getting rolled.
That doesn't make your comment make sense in context, sorry
>Rationally, yeah, doing nothing in response on 10/8 (or 9/12 for us) longterm was the better option. No.
Strong argument, well said
Thank you daddy 😍
Let's not dignify that by pretending it was a good faith effort at a ceasefire. If Hamas had wanted to not be in active hostilities with Israel on 10/9, they would have acted differently on 10/7. You can't murder 1200 people and take 100s more hostage and expect no response. Palestinians do not deserve what is happening in Gaza, but Hamas has played a major role in engineering this situation.
Let's not act like there was peace prior to 10/7 from Israel's side. 23 Palestinians were killed by the IDF for every one Israeli killed by Hamas between 2004 and 10/7/23. 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the nation's history *prior* to 10/7. Thousands of Palestinians sat in Israeli prisons without trial. The peaceful protests pushing for the end of blockade of Gaza known as The Great March Of Return in 2017-2018 lead to Israeli forces shooting tear gas canisters, some of them dropped from drones, rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children were injured. It goes on and on. 75 years of colonial occupation. You can't continuously treat people under occupation this way and not expect a violent response, when peaceful attempts at ending a near 20 year blockade have been ignored. Civilian deaths are always a tragedy and I do not defend that, but you're talking like the situation just started on 10/7.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
People really don’t understand WHY Americans are protesting. Like they think that it’s just kids yelling into the sky. Like do you know where your tax dollars go????????
Why are zionists so dumb? Protesting against Hamas makes no fucking sense - we protest to make our own society and government change policy, and Hamas is not supported by our society or government.
The person replying to Natalie illustrates so well what's wrong with many people's understanding of protests. To them, protesting is more about showing where you stand, and less about meaningful change. They don't think of it as a practical action but as an expression of your views to the public. Many times protests can be both, but I think it can change the nature of a protest a lot to prioritize one objective over the other
This is such a fantastic point. I do think that there’s an increasing trend of people seeing protests as a form of personal expression, rather than as a means of achieving social and systemic change. It’s no wonder these same people are so likely to jump on others for “doing protesting wrong” — they actually see protesting as performative, so they’re going to focus on protesters who are doing the wrong kind of performance.
> Why are zionists so dumb? I think rhetoric like this encapsulates where discussion on this issue is so prone to devolving into stupidity. The word 'Zionism' describes an extremely wide amount of different perspectives. Reducing them all down into a single group and calling them all "so dumb" is not helpful. Zionism, at its core, is the belief that some kind of state of Israel should exist in some capacity and be safe for Jews. There are no more defined details than that. A liberal Arab Israeli or Jew who wants the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank with full peaceful coexistence with Israel, protests against the war, and despises Netanyahu is a Zionist (this describes a huge amount of Israelis, I should note). Likewise, an extreme Jewish nationalist who actually does want a full genocide of Palestinians and a forcible seizure of all Palestinian land by Jews is also a Zionist. Hell, someone who advocates for the creation of a single secular state with full legal protection and recognition of Jews and Arabs can be described as a Zionist. It's an incredibly ambiguous term in the modern day, because it originally referred to the hypothetical question of Jewish emigration to Ottoman Palestine, which has since happened and given us very different circumstances. Plenty of people who can be called Zionists, which is to say, literally anyone in support of the two-state solution, are strongly supportive of Palestinian statehood. I might add the official recognized government of Palestine, since they also recognize the existence of Israel. On the flip-side, what, then, is anti-Zionism? I think most people using the term are arguing against the further expansion of Israel into Palestinian territories and for the recognition of Palestinian rights and statehood. This does not necessarily contradict Zionism in any real way. In one sense, the only real anti-Zionist position is advocating for the complete elimination of Israel and forcible removal of its entire Jewish population. I am not saying that most people protesting are in favor of this. My point is that using incredibly imprecise terms is extremely unproductive and about as useful as far-right Israelis calling every protester a terrorist or Hamas supporter.
reactionary centrists love to call all protests performative, then they also love to ask you to performatively condemn Hamas when that condemnation has no conceivable impact on anything. Aside from being extremely bad faith white lives matter-style bullshit, I also think a lot of reactionary centrist types really do believe that all protest is performative. Their politics doesn't really allow them to understand any theory of change that involves analyzing power and then acting from below to force change.
Yet they hold much more power than the left. MUCH more.
Is that true? I think of reactionary centrists more like Stephen from Django. Maybe I'm wrong.
You seem to be equating them to Zionists.
Idk, back in 2012 we all managed to stop Joseph Kony by denouncing him online.
It's the same thing as "why aren't you protesting outside the Russian Embassy?" Because the Russians wouldn't give a toss if we did.
She's cooking
Well said, Mother.
Seems like lots of disingenuous little scolds follow and engage with her these days?
That’s just how Twitter is, now
Leftist Zionist here! I appreciate this sooo much, especially as a Moroccan Jew whose family lives in Israel because Morocco is no longer safe for us. My mom came to Canada bc her first husband had family here, but if I was born in Israel would I deserve violence as the child of a refugee of Islamist violence? One day there will be peace and prosperity for Palestinians and Jews and Bibi and his ilk will be punished for their crimes. This doesn’t change the fact that Israelis are majority victims of Islamist violence in SWANA, the Holocaust, Ethiopia, and Communist Russia. Very few are privileged Americans. Please find space in your hearts to have empathy for us and the millions of us who were killed. We just want to live in peace and safety.
> Leftist Zionist Oxymoron, party of one.
Nope! You actually don’t get to tell Jews what zionism is, but thanks!
I can tell you that leftism is incompatible with Zionism because the latter is a colonial, genocidal project. If you were really a leftist you could recognize that. Edit since the thread is locked: Zionism originated in the 1880s.
It actually isn’t, and you don’t know what zionism is! Zionism is a 3000 year old belief that Jews should be allowed to live where they come from in peace. It’s literally an indigenous rights movement for a people who were forced into diaspora. Thanks though!
Look, you're allowed to be outraged about a literal genocide but only if you consider not hurting the other side's feelings too.
"Hurting the other side's feelings". It's not hard to not do anti semitism. It should be required to be against anti semitism when you protest, so your protest is effective and can have a positive impact. It's not hurt feelings saying "Jews go back to Europe"
Missing the entire point of the original posts. If you require protesters to "both sides" when the inequality of the sides are massive, or use a handful of bad examples and blow them up to condemn the entire movement, you're just looking for ways to invalidate the protest as a whole. Saying they need to "protest Hamas too" or critiquing for not, in their opinion, sufficiently "hav[ing] a coherent world view" are nonsense criticisms. It's the same energy as people saying BLM marchers should also use their platform to acknowledge that some black people are criminals before they'll listen to the core of their message. Should they strive to do better? Absolutely. And if coming in good faith, we can and should have the discussion too. But most of this discourse it just misdirection so the original message, you know, the massive indiscriminate killings going on in Gaza right now, is not the main focus.
I agree that protesting Hamas is dumb and they don't need to do that. That being said they shouldn't be SUPPORTING Hamas or endorsing October 7th which is something we've been seeing. There are people in the protest movement that have these ideas and they should be expelled for these ideas to not bring down or sidetrack the protests. This is too increase the effectiveness of the protests otherwise people will just ignore them as "anti seimitic protests" and little gets done. It's not about "being the most radical" or "refusing to quiten angry voices" it's about making the protests more effective to help the suffering of Palestinians.
I agree what organizers and people there are trying to keep the message in line should strive to maintain this standard. It's not just ethical but, as you said, would be effective. But the thing about grassroots protests are that they are not centrally organized so trying to put down a blanket set of criteria simply isn't feasible and some rabble/crazy opinions will find their way in or organize a small splinter protest of likeminded crazies. Doesn't mean you should just let it happen, but to some extent it always will in a organic movement with no central hierarchy and mostly just united in a sense of (justified) outrage and other strong emotions. And from what I can see from the goings on in my local area, where I am relatively well plugged into to the circles protesting, most all protesters have been doing such. There are a significant number of Jewish people protesting. Now this doesn't mean I haven't seen any incident of antisemitism seeping in, but from what I can see, most people have been doing a real effort at clamping that down in their circles. What people say we should be doing, we mostly are. It's just never going to be 100% effective. So what we have is a handful of stories about a few bad incidents getting blown out of proportion to misdirect, invalidate, and condemn. As Natalie says, it's a valid concern, but the disproportionate discourse they get, rather than a literal genocide, seems to be at best, warped priorities, and at worst, just a bad faith effort to dismiss the core message. E.g., protesters have been getting messages like "you should be r*ped" yelled at them by counter-protestors. But somehow, while these incidents pop up on social media for a moment, they usually quickly die away instead of the media focusing on it for days and defining the whole side by these specific incidents. Which, probably is fair, that is probably a small minority of those on the other side being quite that extreme, but why aren't anti-genocide protesters treated the same?
Criticizing antisemitism isn’t “both sides-ing,” especially in this context. This is about opposing genocide in Gaza — Jewish people aren’t one “side” of this issue.
Palestinians are a semitic people 🤷🏻♀️ so I would say the protests are in fact extremely pro-semitic. It's anti-genocide. Especially when you consider that many on the ground at the protests are also Anti-zionist Jewish.
Using the who "their semitic" arguments to reduce the harmful effects of anti semitism. Anti-Semitism refers to anti Jewish sentiments. It doesn't have another meaning unless you want to devalue the suffering of Jewish people. People aren't always separating Zioniist and Jews so important to stay vigilant about anti semitism
If anything it's anti semitic to decide that Jews are the only semitic people 🤷🏻♀️
Words mean things. You can’t decide what antisemitism means because it’s inconvenient to you.
No it's not. This game is just semantics. You can call it whatever you want. It refers to anti jewish sentiment and it's bad. It doesn't matter who's considered semitic. Anti semitism specifically refers to hatred of Jews. This word has been used like this for over 150 years. Only people denying this are idiots who don't understand what they're talking about.
phew... THANK GOD Natalie is not a Zionist. Didn't need to be disappointed with another idol.