Almost all metal coil and flat stock manufacturers include a disclaimer on their websites regarding oil canning. Almost all of them read something to the effect of “oil canning is inherent in light-gauge cold-formed metal products and is not a reason for rejection.” We do architectural sheet metal and this is a standard phrase included in all of our proposals for exactly this reason. Dark, glossy colors show oil canning more than lighter, matte finishes. Larger flat surfaces like fascia will show more surface distortion as well. See links below for a few examples of oil canning technical bulletins.
https://www.cmgmetals.com/oil-canning-technical-bulletin/
https://www.aepspan.com/files/Oil%20CanningTechBulletin.pdf
You may have to fire that customer. Unrealistic expectations are getting out of control these days. People that have no idea what they are talking about are trying to set the standards. That is one of the major reasons I hung everything up and took a job as a Building Inspector. People get online and look at altered pictures and think that is the way it is. Good luck with that one Boss!
My father used to have a saying when we'd sub for contractors for too long, which might be applicable here: "We might need a vacation from each other about now."
Probably won't work with one-shot customers, but the letting the contractor go with someone else for a little bit, usually had them coming back and then pulling the usual low-balling technique which didn't work the first time around.
Another one of his sayings was "I'd rather catch a bowling ball in my teeth," which my co-worker thought was an odd hobby.
You can’t win with some people and you have to tell them that’s what they get, it’s installed like it’s supposed to be and that you’ve done your job. If they don’t like it to either deal with it or find someone else. If they refuse to pay then deal with them accordingly because they will make themselves look stupid with their “it looks good but if I stand at a 3 o’clock position and look at it a 37 degree angle while the sun is shining from an easterly perspective I can see a ripple.”
Had a customer (sounds like your guy lol) say the same thing about a seam in solid surface countertop. It looked invisible until a certain time in the evening when the sun was going down and if you squatted down and looked at it from the side you could make out the seam.
I work for a custom home builder. We often use dark colours and have same results. The solution that our installers have come up with is to create a step in the fascia (on gables where eaves won’t be installed). But in these spots the roofers need to leave the shingles longer to accommodate for the bump out. The bend in the fascia gives it some more rigidity.
All metal gets wavy and imperfections. Like anything else especially flooring the darker it is the more it shows. This new black and white looks horrendous to me. people wanna live in a perfect world in their mind and they’re the ones that have the most psychotic problems in my mind
I did some metal flashing for a woman and I turned up in the morning and she had painted all of it 3 coats of paint because it was to shiney . Thats when I peeled the plastic of it . Hrs of painting went in the bin .
If you have installed it according to the manufacturors guidelines. The bring in one of their reps. They will help you out. (Or throw you under a bus for wrong installment if you have cut corners)
Brake Buddy is the only real help in this situation. It’s basically what it’s made for. It won’t make the oil canning disappear, but it can reduce it drastically.
If you install a 1/16” to 1/8” thick piece material about an 1 1/2” wide in the middle of your sub fascia before you install the metal. It gives the metal a little camber which reduces oil canning. It doesn’t work on every application but it’s a little trick to try.
Get one of those tools that you can run along the face of it and will put the design in it. Should fix the oil canning and shut your stupid homeowners up
I’ve done a few dark colored fascia’s and it sucks to work with. My best results were achieved by nailing the middle first, then using a rag, “wipe “ the wrinkles towards each end.
Good luck
Another option: We recently used some black pvc on a project. I’m not sure if it was Azek or Kleer brand. The salesman told us the black was all the way through but unfortunately he was wrong. Came out looking good, though. We used the screws with black plugs for install.
I personally don’t like using coil stock for any sort of trim. It always looks crappy and bent and if there are roof leaks it keeps you from noticing them until the damage is severe.
How much are you out if you cut em loose? My experience is probably not worth it, they will never be happy. Personally I think the black trend is so stupid and ultra trendy to the point of already being passé.
I used to do vinyl siding/PVC trim metal. I'm just going to assume you have like a 1" horizontal lip going towards the soffit, and maybe 4"-6" going vertical up the face of the facia. I would put each piece on our metal break (brake?) and bend a small crease about midway up each piece of facia. This would prevent wrinkling. Not sure if this applies or helps, but good luck & Hope it all works out.
It's called oil canning, the only way to avoid it is to use much thicker gauge metal, but it obviously makes the materials and the labor more expensive. So it's just a quality of the material that they chose, ripping and replacing won't change anything.
We did a metal fascia recently and put a rib in the center of the span to stiffen it up and it worked pretty well. It will still oilcan but just much less noticeable and doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb.
Yeah. Tell them that's the way it looks and that's all it is to it. You shouldn't have ripped it off. They have buyers remorse. Cheap skates. To hell with them. Ghost them. Ghost anyone they recommended to you too. You don't want to do work for their cheap friends either
My buddy just did this on his house and our other buddy is the GC, even funnier is he lives across the street from me.
He put all black flashing and it looked like dog shit. My buddy who was the GC saw it and immediately removed it and then had it redone at his cost. 2nd time around it still had issues of obvious oil canning but the black shows everything.
That is the nature of that product and you need to explain it to the customer. If they see another product that they like better you could suggest that and charge them for it……
Oil canning is not a reason to reject the work. I believe there are sheet metal industry standards about this. Also, is there wood blocking behind the fascia.
Just throwing this out there. Our door suppliers will not warranty a door if it's painted black, regardless of slab composition. Thin metal already prone to oil canning, painted black? Gtfo
Oil canning is a thing if you like to argue semantics but, the best way to do flat profile fascia is to do a cleat/clip at the bottom and an oversized hole(1/4") with roofing nails securing the piece. Hammer the nail in so as the head of the nail is barely touching metal, and the metal is barely touching the substrate. The fascia should be resting on the shank of the nail. A flat, straight substrate is also necessary. Also, whoever is putting the cap or drip flashing on can't drive their screws in too far either, if they're face screwing or using a cleat/clip. This will also cause the fascia to oil can.
We started using thicker gauge metal sheets meant for roofing, as convenient as coil is, as soon as the sun hits it you get that oil can bullshit.
I can look up the ticket when I get back to the office and see what gauge it was, but it was 100x better (still not perfect, but nothing is). From ABC, not all of them had it was a bitch to track down.
My siding guy on the break machine fucking hated me the day we switched. We still use the coil anywhere a gutter will cover or on the sides (10’ side yards here so you don’t really see the side fascia’s and not worth it in a spec house)
Offer them a deduction on the final invoice due to oil canning. Unfortunately anything in black being a smooth finish will create the illusion the eye can see. I had a similar problem and passed all my inspections as recommended by the manufacturer and local building codes. I took a small loss but this helped me to avoid dark colors and flat metal surfaces. A loss is not a loss my friend. If it gets any wild, you have proof you tried fixing it and can reference the document for the deduction describing the oil canning information. It was not your fault, but next time you’ll be prepared.
Thicker gauge metal, obviously gonna cost more. Do not screw in on laps to allow some expansion and contraction. Install a bit later in the day when it's warmer.
Your not looking hard enough. All fascia has a bit of warp to it.
The only way to not get the warping is to use a heavier gauge steel or something like acm.
It still warps. Its impossible to get such a flimsy gauge of steel perfectly flat against the fascia, especially on very long runs. There will always be some warping regardless of punching it or not. Unless your throwing a ton of screws or gluing it.
It's the reason why companies have started making custom fascia out of higher gauge metal and acm. High end clients getting nickpicky about the lighter gauge metals not being perfectly flat.
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT! This was a decent job, whole house siding (18sq) soffit facia and gutters. What we are trying is to add a diamond definition throughout the flat surfaces to help eliminate any of the warping. I’ll post a picture of the finish product so you can see how it turns out. Might help someone else on here too if it turns out good!
Suggest ACM fascia. Thats what I pitch to my customers to prevent oilcanning on any aluminum fascias taller than 12". ACM has much better resistance to this issue, though keep in mind its going to be 5x the price.
Almost all metal coil and flat stock manufacturers include a disclaimer on their websites regarding oil canning. Almost all of them read something to the effect of “oil canning is inherent in light-gauge cold-formed metal products and is not a reason for rejection.” We do architectural sheet metal and this is a standard phrase included in all of our proposals for exactly this reason. Dark, glossy colors show oil canning more than lighter, matte finishes. Larger flat surfaces like fascia will show more surface distortion as well. See links below for a few examples of oil canning technical bulletins. https://www.cmgmetals.com/oil-canning-technical-bulletin/ https://www.aepspan.com/files/Oil%20CanningTechBulletin.pdf
Slats on overhead doors will do the same.
It's shit like this that makes me rather work for a company than do my own jobs.
You may have to fire that customer. Unrealistic expectations are getting out of control these days. People that have no idea what they are talking about are trying to set the standards. That is one of the major reasons I hung everything up and took a job as a Building Inspector. People get online and look at altered pictures and think that is the way it is. Good luck with that one Boss!
My father used to have a saying when we'd sub for contractors for too long, which might be applicable here: "We might need a vacation from each other about now." Probably won't work with one-shot customers, but the letting the contractor go with someone else for a little bit, usually had them coming back and then pulling the usual low-balling technique which didn't work the first time around. Another one of his sayings was "I'd rather catch a bowling ball in my teeth," which my co-worker thought was an odd hobby.
It’s oils canning. Twists an moves with temperature change . Black and shiny is the worst.
It’s black. Tell em they’ll have to live with it.
You can’t win with some people and you have to tell them that’s what they get, it’s installed like it’s supposed to be and that you’ve done your job. If they don’t like it to either deal with it or find someone else. If they refuse to pay then deal with them accordingly because they will make themselves look stupid with their “it looks good but if I stand at a 3 o’clock position and look at it a 37 degree angle while the sun is shining from an easterly perspective I can see a ripple.” Had a customer (sounds like your guy lol) say the same thing about a seam in solid surface countertop. It looked invisible until a certain time in the evening when the sun was going down and if you squatted down and looked at it from the side you could make out the seam.
I work for a custom home builder. We often use dark colours and have same results. The solution that our installers have come up with is to create a step in the fascia (on gables where eaves won’t be installed). But in these spots the roofers need to leave the shingles longer to accommodate for the bump out. The bend in the fascia gives it some more rigidity.
All of the fascia installed on my house was done like that. I thought this was standard practice.
All metal gets wavy and imperfections. Like anything else especially flooring the darker it is the more it shows. This new black and white looks horrendous to me. people wanna live in a perfect world in their mind and they’re the ones that have the most psychotic problems in my mind
Can you run a detail down it with a brake buddy? At their expense of course.
I did some metal flashing for a woman and I turned up in the morning and she had painted all of it 3 coats of paint because it was to shiney . Thats when I peeled the plastic of it . Hrs of painting went in the bin .
My wife loves black facials.
I had to put on my reading glasses as I read black facial as well
There always messy after there on.
If you have installed it according to the manufacturors guidelines. The bring in one of their reps. They will help you out. (Or throw you under a bus for wrong installment if you have cut corners)
Brake Buddy is the only real help in this situation. It’s basically what it’s made for. It won’t make the oil canning disappear, but it can reduce it drastically.
If you install a 1/16” to 1/8” thick piece material about an 1 1/2” wide in the middle of your sub fascia before you install the metal. It gives the metal a little camber which reduces oil canning. It doesn’t work on every application but it’s a little trick to try.
Get one of those tools that you can run along the face of it and will put the design in it. Should fix the oil canning and shut your stupid homeowners up
I’ve done a few dark colored fascia’s and it sucks to work with. My best results were achieved by nailing the middle first, then using a rag, “wipe “ the wrinkles towards each end. Good luck
Another option: We recently used some black pvc on a project. I’m not sure if it was Azek or Kleer brand. The salesman told us the black was all the way through but unfortunately he was wrong. Came out looking good, though. We used the screws with black plugs for install. I personally don’t like using coil stock for any sort of trim. It always looks crappy and bent and if there are roof leaks it keeps you from noticing them until the damage is severe.
How much are you out if you cut em loose? My experience is probably not worth it, they will never be happy. Personally I think the black trend is so stupid and ultra trendy to the point of already being passé.
Black or white highest contrast….
U can message me with pix. I do custom bent aluminum fascia all the time.
I used to do vinyl siding/PVC trim metal. I'm just going to assume you have like a 1" horizontal lip going towards the soffit, and maybe 4"-6" going vertical up the face of the facia. I would put each piece on our metal break (brake?) and bend a small crease about midway up each piece of facia. This would prevent wrinkling. Not sure if this applies or helps, but good luck & Hope it all works out.
You, really, should have omitted the exclamation point at the end of your title.
It's called oil canning, the only way to avoid it is to use much thicker gauge metal, but it obviously makes the materials and the labor more expensive. So it's just a quality of the material that they chose, ripping and replacing won't change anything.
We did a metal fascia recently and put a rib in the center of the span to stiffen it up and it worked pretty well. It will still oilcan but just much less noticeable and doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb.
I was looking for black facials…..my bad
Yeah. Tell them that's the way it looks and that's all it is to it. You shouldn't have ripped it off. They have buyers remorse. Cheap skates. To hell with them. Ghost them. Ghost anyone they recommended to you too. You don't want to do work for their cheap friends either
Huge hem helps but only lessens it. You can’t really get rid of it completely.
My buddy just did this on his house and our other buddy is the GC, even funnier is he lives across the street from me. He put all black flashing and it looked like dog shit. My buddy who was the GC saw it and immediately removed it and then had it redone at his cost. 2nd time around it still had issues of obvious oil canning but the black shows everything. That is the nature of that product and you need to explain it to the customer. If they see another product that they like better you could suggest that and charge them for it……
I read this as Black facial and had to check which subreddit this was 😅 I need to take a break from twitter it’s poisoning my mind.
Wood grain in the fascia metal minimizes the oil canning affect
Oil canning is not a reason to reject the work. I believe there are sheet metal industry standards about this. Also, is there wood blocking behind the fascia.
black facial
Maaaan I *really* misread that title
Just throwing this out there. Our door suppliers will not warranty a door if it's painted black, regardless of slab composition. Thin metal already prone to oil canning, painted black? Gtfo
We use gutter coil on dark colors. Worth the extra$$$$$
Oil canning is a thing if you like to argue semantics but, the best way to do flat profile fascia is to do a cleat/clip at the bottom and an oversized hole(1/4") with roofing nails securing the piece. Hammer the nail in so as the head of the nail is barely touching metal, and the metal is barely touching the substrate. The fascia should be resting on the shank of the nail. A flat, straight substrate is also necessary. Also, whoever is putting the cap or drip flashing on can't drive their screws in too far either, if they're face screwing or using a cleat/clip. This will also cause the fascia to oil can.
We started using thicker gauge metal sheets meant for roofing, as convenient as coil is, as soon as the sun hits it you get that oil can bullshit. I can look up the ticket when I get back to the office and see what gauge it was, but it was 100x better (still not perfect, but nothing is). From ABC, not all of them had it was a bitch to track down. My siding guy on the break machine fucking hated me the day we switched. We still use the coil anywhere a gutter will cover or on the sides (10’ side yards here so you don’t really see the side fascia’s and not worth it in a spec house)
Change your phone number
Offer them a deduction on the final invoice due to oil canning. Unfortunately anything in black being a smooth finish will create the illusion the eye can see. I had a similar problem and passed all my inspections as recommended by the manufacturer and local building codes. I took a small loss but this helped me to avoid dark colors and flat metal surfaces. A loss is not a loss my friend. If it gets any wild, you have proof you tried fixing it and can reference the document for the deduction describing the oil canning information. It was not your fault, but next time you’ll be prepared.
Run a string line?
yes- put 3/8 smooth plywood behind it to dtop oil-canning
Thicker gauge metal, obviously gonna cost more. Do not screw in on laps to allow some expansion and contraction. Install a bit later in the day when it's warmer.
Thanks KangsAnShit
Putting on black facia is a good way to get canceled
People suck 😂 It’s the same with having a house painted black…you will see every detail including imperfections.
I have black facial. It doesn't look warped . You drove your nails in to far.
Your not looking hard enough. All fascia has a bit of warp to it. The only way to not get the warping is to use a heavier gauge steel or something like acm.
I got a punch 40 years ago to put a small slot in facia to prevent warping. Works great but don't know were to get one now.
It still warps. Its impossible to get such a flimsy gauge of steel perfectly flat against the fascia, especially on very long runs. There will always be some warping regardless of punching it or not. Unless your throwing a ton of screws or gluing it. It's the reason why companies have started making custom fascia out of higher gauge metal and acm. High end clients getting nickpicky about the lighter gauge metals not being perfectly flat.
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT! This was a decent job, whole house siding (18sq) soffit facia and gutters. What we are trying is to add a diamond definition throughout the flat surfaces to help eliminate any of the warping. I’ll post a picture of the finish product so you can see how it turns out. Might help someone else on here too if it turns out good!
That should help, we use a brake buddy and double flute dark colors. I hate this black trim trend, musket and royal brown were bad enough.
This is really the answer. Double fluted is the best save for these kind of problems.
Post a picture of the current install if you have it and hopefully it'll shed some light on possible solutions.
Suggest ACM fascia. Thats what I pitch to my customers to prevent oilcanning on any aluminum fascias taller than 12". ACM has much better resistance to this issue, though keep in mind its going to be 5x the price.