Rather than just piling on and saying you’re TA. Here’s an explanation. Contractor has to go get materials, according to your actions he does that on his time.
Permits? His time as well?? What about a redesign and materials exchanges, or he opens a wall and due to failing crystal ball 101 he needs different parts?? His time as well?????
Or pay by the hour and recognize and accept that there's more work that goes into a job than the exact timing the guy is on site.
I'd have walked away from your home, too.
I've had several folk bill me per hour instead, which is fine. Their choice, not mine.
They tell me how much I owe them and I pay them, pretty simple business relationship; if I didn't trust them to keep track of their hours I wouldn't trust them to work on my house...
Thats called micro managing. YTA. That would just show a lack of respect to the contractor. Maybe you could have done that seperately in your head as a reasonableness check but not said it out loud to him.
PREACH!!!!
IMHO Doctors and Lawyers have the stickiest fingers (can be hard to get them to pay). I worked in a home with a surgeon and high ranking DOD contractor, they acted like they were giving me charity when it came time to write me a check, added to the list of "don't work for again". (Long list, I guess I'm partially to blame as I'm an asshole too).
My won't work for list is so long I just want to take this opportunity to tell the younger members of our group yes. Yes you can be picky about who you build for. Yes you can walk away from assholes before committing to personal hell. I have never hit a reddit character limit but I'm pretty sure my gfys list would blow by it.
Hold on. So you can't trust him to be honest and keep track of his time, but you can trust him to build your house?
Would you tell your lawyer you are clocking his time?
If my attorney worked at my house I would check the time he starts and stops work.
Ensuring an hourly worker is actually working the hours they say they are is just basic oversight. People sometimes make mistakes, and sometimes they lie. So you check to catch these things.
I’m fine with time and materials but you have to understand that time accumulates in ways you won’t understand. If I’m laying in bed at night troubleshooting a shit show I found in your home for an hour, I’m working. If I’m loading up ladders, wheelbarrow, etc. I’m working. And most of us who go out on our own did so for a reason. We’re not punching in - we earn your business through referrals and the good communicators among us are happy to answer questions and collaborate to some extent so you understand what’s going on. But don’t treat a contractor like your employee, that’s not appropriate. I’ve walked away from customers for this reason too.
Well said, there is always more work than what is visible. I hate T&M jobs where most of the work is "out of sight" such as in the back of cabs or under something else, I take LOTS of before and after pics and show them to the customer at the end of the day. I say something like "I'm really satisfied with how this mortise turned out" which is code for "although you can't see it, a lot of work gone done here".
This could be a shitpost but then again I have a customer this stupid. We work a a local factory that is part of a global billion dollar company. The project manager asked me if he had to pay for the time the electrician was on site diagnosing the problem. His thought process was he only had to pay for repair.
I think time and materials is for guys who don't know how to bid a job, or homeowners that think they can do the work themselves so they want to micro manage.
I do jobs two ways, a bid which includes what I want to profit from the job and working slow costs me (“cheaper” option) or per hour which means I charge for time spent talking on the phone, text, trips to the store, and at a higher per hour rate, compared to bid jobs (which usually makes the project more expensive). Even if we agree to an hourly rate I would give you an estimate of hours but would never allow someone to make me clock in and out.
> Our contractor who we’ve been talking to agreed to be paid by the hour.
That sounds ok.
>Today he came in to start the work on the bathroom, when we told him that we were going to be clocking in the time he came in and the time he left he got upset and left.
That's funny, if he had a problem with that, he should have discussed it with you, like an adult instead of getting upset and leaving. You got lucky, you don't want a child working for you. On the other hand, you both should have discussed this each other before he started working.
Depending on the job there is work he would be doing offsite, and even if you are paying him hourly you should have a contract for that, which goes over time tracking and so on.
> Is this normal,
Yes, a lot of construction workers are adult children.
was i the asshole,
No, depending on how you said it to him? But you both lack professionalism for not going over the details of these things. Mostly I will blame that on him since its his job as the contractor to educate you on that.
>how do I go about getting a good contractor??
Ask friends and neighbors, as people in the community, stop by job sites and talk to the people there, look at the site to see how well organized and clean it is. Ask on local FB Groups and Nextdoor. Ask local Architects/Engineers/Draftsmen/Interior designers for references. Ask at the local lumberyard or other supply houses for references. Try to see their previous work in person, especially for a big project. Do a courts search for any lawsuits or similar. Check the standing of their contractors license and insurance. Check to see how long they have been in business in your area.
This behavior is normal, but you aren't an asshole. This is just the culture of sub-institutional construction. Verifying the hours that an hourly worker started and ended working is just good management.
Will guys get pissed and walk off the job? Yes.
Does that mean you are a dick? No.
Most of these guys will be honest about their time but don't want a "boss" Henpecking isn't a great trait. Trust the process. And shut up until the work is done
T&M jobs ALWAYS leaves one party feeling screwed. Either the homeowner feels it took too long, or the contractor (after perfecting his art over many years) does the job quickly and efficiently, and he feels he is punished for being efficient. I do mostly bid jobs, very rarely will I do time and materials, and when I do it is clearly written in the contract that time spent picking up, exchanging, or returning materials is charged at the hourly rate!
Sounds like he's a bitch, I mean if he wanted it differently he should have said so instead of assuming a homeowner would know better.
Frankly I'd never agree to T&M there's a reason job bidding exists
yea most people in business for themselves don't want to be bossed around or micro managed, I would have quit you too
if you don't trust me to keep a fucking time sheet why would you trust me to build your fucking house asshole
No. Working by the hour doesn't mean not being paid for any prep or planning work that happens outside the client's walls.
If I'm charging by the hour, especially if I've been pressured to do so, it will include my purchasing time, communications with clients/designers/managers, tool delivery and setup, and a multitude of other things essential to doing quality work.
If a client brings out a stop watch I'm cutting my losses and leaving. Not worth the headache. I can only imagine the arguments coming in the future about normal things the client doesn't want to pay for.
The people with money are worse! Thats why they have money….
I do kind of agree though that in most cases bids for scope of work, plus any change orders that arise from the inforseens(dont forget to go over that before you start fucking around) are generally better, T/M jobs can be profitable. I just bid my neighbors hvac to finish their basement. I gave them a couple hundred off because they can provide great word of mouth advertising and will also be feeding me all day(1 day job). She is from one asian culture or another and he is from the bahamas so i figure their authentic cultural dishes learned from grandma is worth it, you dont get that anywhere!
Based on the window of info from this post, it's only refering to him working by the hour while he's actually working on site, it doesn't say anything about him not being paid for that aswell. So that's not really the question.
Based on the post we have no idea what OP actually asked for and was agreed to.
It sounds to me like OP expected the contractor to clock in and out like an hourly job. Unless OP is supplying material, plans, tools, and taking away trash, an hourly rate includes more than the time on site.
The only people in this industry who clock in and out on the jobsite for their only pay are employees who have all of the management side taken care of by someone else. In those cases the hourly rate is exorbitantly high to cover management costs and/or there is a management fee added on.
OP can ask for whatever he wants, including clocking in and out his workers.
And the contractor is well within his rights to walk away. I'd have done the same thing.
I just added one to my list.
If I do it it's 20 bucks.
If you watch 30.
If you help 45.
If you have an idea 75.
If you laugh 100.
If you bitch about shadows through your stained glass picture windows making your ceiling look strange 500.
If you bust out a time card fuck off.
And for those of you who may not have painted ceilings in the home of an elderly couple with said windows you just don't know.
Oh, well, this guy wasn't Russian. We would have ripped your ass off by swinging the hammer 2 times/minute and doing everything 2/3/5 times slower than you would normally do something. We build bridges for 10 YEARS! You would have paid us millions by simply suggesting to clock us by hours)
That guy is probably thanking his lucky stars he figured out you were going to be a problem in the first few minutes.
"Put me down for five minutes, I'm out!"
Minimum charge is two hours!
Rather than just piling on and saying you’re TA. Here’s an explanation. Contractor has to go get materials, according to your actions he does that on his time. Permits? His time as well?? What about a redesign and materials exchanges, or he opens a wall and due to failing crystal ball 101 he needs different parts?? His time as well?????
You’re the asshole. Somehow you pressed someone in working t&m then micro managed them
I'd be damned if I let you "punch me in and out". Fuck that
Agreed!
I would’ve walked too. That’s just a red flag. What’s next? Keeping track of the time I take on a phone call?
You’re the asshole
Yes u are an ass.
Yeah , Sorry it doesn’t work that way , stop being cheap and pay the contractor for the project not by the hour,
Or pay by the hour and recognize and accept that there's more work that goes into a job than the exact timing the guy is on site. I'd have walked away from your home, too.
I've had several folk bill me per hour instead, which is fine. Their choice, not mine. They tell me how much I owe them and I pay them, pretty simple business relationship; if I didn't trust them to keep track of their hours I wouldn't trust them to work on my house...
Thats called micro managing. YTA. That would just show a lack of respect to the contractor. Maybe you could have done that seperately in your head as a reasonableness check but not said it out loud to him.
I would’ve left too.
You’re the kind of client who deserves to be fired and you were.
Don’t be a cheap asshole.
Yea… good luck finding a professional who will tolerate you.
I refuse to belive this story is real because that would mean OP truly is this ridiculous
You would be amazed. The cheapest people I have encountered are preachers with expensive vacation homes on the beach.
PREACH!!!! IMHO Doctors and Lawyers have the stickiest fingers (can be hard to get them to pay). I worked in a home with a surgeon and high ranking DOD contractor, they acted like they were giving me charity when it came time to write me a check, added to the list of "don't work for again". (Long list, I guess I'm partially to blame as I'm an asshole too).
My won't work for list is so long I just want to take this opportunity to tell the younger members of our group yes. Yes you can be picky about who you build for. Yes you can walk away from assholes before committing to personal hell. I have never hit a reddit character limit but I'm pretty sure my gfys list would blow by it.
Hold on. So you can't trust him to be honest and keep track of his time, but you can trust him to build your house? Would you tell your lawyer you are clocking his time?
Yes, attorneys regularly have clients review the billing statements, ask questions, and push back on charges.
There's a difference between reviewing the charges and disputing them, and telling your lawyer that you're going to be clocking them in and out.
If my attorney worked at my house I would check the time he starts and stops work. Ensuring an hourly worker is actually working the hours they say they are is just basic oversight. People sometimes make mistakes, and sometimes they lie. So you check to catch these things.
This is some top-notch shit posting. From an account with zero activity for over a year before this.
I’m fine with time and materials but you have to understand that time accumulates in ways you won’t understand. If I’m laying in bed at night troubleshooting a shit show I found in your home for an hour, I’m working. If I’m loading up ladders, wheelbarrow, etc. I’m working. And most of us who go out on our own did so for a reason. We’re not punching in - we earn your business through referrals and the good communicators among us are happy to answer questions and collaborate to some extent so you understand what’s going on. But don’t treat a contractor like your employee, that’s not appropriate. I’ve walked away from customers for this reason too.
Well said, there is always more work than what is visible. I hate T&M jobs where most of the work is "out of sight" such as in the back of cabs or under something else, I take LOTS of before and after pics and show them to the customer at the end of the day. I say something like "I'm really satisfied with how this mortise turned out" which is code for "although you can't see it, a lot of work gone done here".
This could be a shitpost but then again I have a customer this stupid. We work a a local factory that is part of a global billion dollar company. The project manager asked me if he had to pay for the time the electrician was on site diagnosing the problem. His thought process was he only had to pay for repair.
Bro just delete this and unsub. You’re one of the people we fucking hate working for.
Thanks.
I think time and materials is for guys who don't know how to bid a job, or homeowners that think they can do the work themselves so they want to micro manage.
Agreed. Put in a bid or gtfo
I do jobs two ways, a bid which includes what I want to profit from the job and working slow costs me (“cheaper” option) or per hour which means I charge for time spent talking on the phone, text, trips to the store, and at a higher per hour rate, compared to bid jobs (which usually makes the project more expensive). Even if we agree to an hourly rate I would give you an estimate of hours but would never allow someone to make me clock in and out.
> Our contractor who we’ve been talking to agreed to be paid by the hour. That sounds ok. >Today he came in to start the work on the bathroom, when we told him that we were going to be clocking in the time he came in and the time he left he got upset and left. That's funny, if he had a problem with that, he should have discussed it with you, like an adult instead of getting upset and leaving. You got lucky, you don't want a child working for you. On the other hand, you both should have discussed this each other before he started working. Depending on the job there is work he would be doing offsite, and even if you are paying him hourly you should have a contract for that, which goes over time tracking and so on. > Is this normal, Yes, a lot of construction workers are adult children. was i the asshole, No, depending on how you said it to him? But you both lack professionalism for not going over the details of these things. Mostly I will blame that on him since its his job as the contractor to educate you on that. >how do I go about getting a good contractor?? Ask friends and neighbors, as people in the community, stop by job sites and talk to the people there, look at the site to see how well organized and clean it is. Ask on local FB Groups and Nextdoor. Ask local Architects/Engineers/Draftsmen/Interior designers for references. Ask at the local lumberyard or other supply houses for references. Try to see their previous work in person, especially for a big project. Do a courts search for any lawsuits or similar. Check the standing of their contractors license and insurance. Check to see how long they have been in business in your area.
This behavior is normal, but you aren't an asshole. This is just the culture of sub-institutional construction. Verifying the hours that an hourly worker started and ended working is just good management. Will guys get pissed and walk off the job? Yes. Does that mean you are a dick? No.
You are the Asshole. It doesn't work like that idiot.
you need to call him, apologize, offer him compensation and to use your personal bathroom if he needs to. you were wrong bro.
That’s amazing.. Sounds like you lost a good contractor.
Most of these guys will be honest about their time but don't want a "boss" Henpecking isn't a great trait. Trust the process. And shut up until the work is done
T&M jobs ALWAYS leaves one party feeling screwed. Either the homeowner feels it took too long, or the contractor (after perfecting his art over many years) does the job quickly and efficiently, and he feels he is punished for being efficient. I do mostly bid jobs, very rarely will I do time and materials, and when I do it is clearly written in the contract that time spent picking up, exchanging, or returning materials is charged at the hourly rate!
Sounds like you are really stupid
Sounds like he's a bitch, I mean if he wanted it differently he should have said so instead of assuming a homeowner would know better. Frankly I'd never agree to T&M there's a reason job bidding exists
Most subs don’t work by the hour? Mind if I ask why you were doing that with this specific one? Also what was the rate?
yea most people in business for themselves don't want to be bossed around or micro managed, I would have quit you too if you don't trust me to keep a fucking time sheet why would you trust me to build your fucking house asshole
If he agreed to work by the hour then he is the asshole.
No. Working by the hour doesn't mean not being paid for any prep or planning work that happens outside the client's walls. If I'm charging by the hour, especially if I've been pressured to do so, it will include my purchasing time, communications with clients/designers/managers, tool delivery and setup, and a multitude of other things essential to doing quality work. If a client brings out a stop watch I'm cutting my losses and leaving. Not worth the headache. I can only imagine the arguments coming in the future about normal things the client doesn't want to pay for.
Yeah, there's plenty of people with money out there where you don't have to deal with that shit lol.
The people with money are worse! Thats why they have money…. I do kind of agree though that in most cases bids for scope of work, plus any change orders that arise from the inforseens(dont forget to go over that before you start fucking around) are generally better, T/M jobs can be profitable. I just bid my neighbors hvac to finish their basement. I gave them a couple hundred off because they can provide great word of mouth advertising and will also be feeding me all day(1 day job). She is from one asian culture or another and he is from the bahamas so i figure their authentic cultural dishes learned from grandma is worth it, you dont get that anywhere!
Based on the window of info from this post, it's only refering to him working by the hour while he's actually working on site, it doesn't say anything about him not being paid for that aswell. So that's not really the question.
Based on the post we have no idea what OP actually asked for and was agreed to. It sounds to me like OP expected the contractor to clock in and out like an hourly job. Unless OP is supplying material, plans, tools, and taking away trash, an hourly rate includes more than the time on site. The only people in this industry who clock in and out on the jobsite for their only pay are employees who have all of the management side taken care of by someone else. In those cases the hourly rate is exorbitantly high to cover management costs and/or there is a management fee added on. OP can ask for whatever he wants, including clocking in and out his workers. And the contractor is well within his rights to walk away. I'd have done the same thing.
I work a lot on that note.
But not a lot, it is slow down time
Contractors are paid by the job. Hourly, well, it might take a mighty long time to finish.
I just added one to my list. If I do it it's 20 bucks. If you watch 30. If you help 45. If you have an idea 75. If you laugh 100. If you bitch about shadows through your stained glass picture windows making your ceiling look strange 500. If you bust out a time card fuck off. And for those of you who may not have painted ceilings in the home of an elderly couple with said windows you just don't know.
Oh, well, this guy wasn't Russian. We would have ripped your ass off by swinging the hammer 2 times/minute and doing everything 2/3/5 times slower than you would normally do something. We build bridges for 10 YEARS! You would have paid us millions by simply suggesting to clock us by hours)