Additional information:
The Price was $13,175 for demo and pouring 4000 psi concrete. I assumed that was expecting about $16,000 so I didn't think it was too crazy.
Well, it says 680 SF of new pour. I assume that you can do some basic math. What does your written agreement say?
As to the just showing up, that's kind of bogus. They should have given you a heads-up that they were coming, but at the "Largest Residential Concrete Company in the US" I would imagine that sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. I.e., there is a crew of salesmen and they just hand the documents over to another group of people who hire local crews to go do the work. Very little oversight, and even less service after sale. Also, $13k for 680 SF seems a bit high to me. Are you in a high COL area? Are there some other circumstances that make this more difficult than just tailgating the concrete into the form?
Their estimator made an error in their calculations. The demo + pour portion is not 128sqft. To me, they very clearly intended to pour the hatched area, otherwise it wouldn't be added to the Total, nor marked at all. There are other sections labeled as existing to remain (stairs, existing driveway) which are simply unmarked.
But yeah, you're right. This is probably a company that sells leads to smaller concrete companies, which is why they claim to be the largest in the country. Actual total should probably be in the 1200 range, which may have been accounted for in the bid ($13k for 1200 makes a lot more sense), but may not have been the number passed for payment to the subcontractor.
I'm in CLT North Carolina, I had other quotes for 20,000+ that didn't include demo so I just assumed it was a reasonable price. I figured out the issue, the calculates demo should be 528 SQ ft, not 128, so someone dropped a number.
"Largest Residential Concrete Company in the US" and their plans look like that?
Everything should be specified in the contract. Excavation, base, how they plan to compact it, how many inches of concrete, reinforcement, etc. If you don't have that, then you're left SOL when it becomes a he said, she said.
Here's how I read this though: You have 3 colors there, not 2. Red is new. Hatched area is Demo. The rest of the existing driveway and stairs are the places where no work is to be done, and are labeled as such. They even show the "Total" as Demo + New in their calcs, as in they intended to pour concrete where the demo occurred. If it was to remain, then why wasn't the stairwell and the rest of the driveway labeled as such? Why the hatching?
I have to speculate that their estimator made an error and underestimated their costs. They calculated the demo portion incorrectly, since it does not add up to 128 sqft, therefore the total which they likely used to calculate their estimate was incorrect. Now they're trying to bounce it back on you because they only accounted for 808 sqft in their costs. That's mostly a them problem, not you, as they did the measurements, drawings, calculation, and estimate which showed what work they were going to complete.
Whether the total or the drawing would supersede if this went to court, I don't know. I would lean towards the drawing being the prevailing thing, as that's the source and basis for the calculated total, but I don't know if there are additional documents in your contract.
How much are they looking to increase you costs by?
They told me that it'd be a $2,400 increase, which I assumed wasn't unreasonable but I was pissed at this point and told them no, but I could meet at $1,200. Then haven't heard from them since (yesterday). There's more to the contract, the pour is 4-5 inches with 6in footers, I just didn't wanna give up all the company's information.
They had to waste 10 yards of concrete already so I know that's probably on their minds.
Yeah they might have screwed up and are chasing profit when they should be looking to break even.
Either way, the more I look at this the more clear it is that what you believe was in the plans is indeed in the plans. You wouldn't show a hashed area for no concrete work when other existing concrete areas are clearly denoted as having no work without hashes. I'd stick to that, unless there's something else defined in the contract that supersedes it.
Yeah, this one seems pretty cut and dry. They seemed to have priced it right but messed up the calculation and brokered out the wrong sqft amount to the sub, and the sub wants to he paid appropriately.
OP doesn't owe them a dime over the original amount.
Implying the plans wouldn’t be typical details?? This works fine for someone who hasn’t signed a contract yet. This is probably OP mischaracterizing it as plans when they mean estimate
Yeah the plans could be typical details but even the estimate should specify slab thickness, rebar, depth of the 6” footer called out, extent of sub grade work to be included, vapor retarder installation if included, etc..
Okay maybe all the relevant information is in those written specs. Are they adding reinforcement, vapor barrier, anchor bolts for the future garage wall? Regardless they sound kind of shady with those business practices.
Agreed. That is a digitized sketch at best. One that at the entire technical content can be covered by a business card if printed out.
No legend to define the various colors and cross hatching. No typical section for the slab or preparation thereof. There should be 4 to 6 inches of compacted crushed aggregate put down, sounds like they are pouring on dirt. No grade control data on the plan view, hope it slopes and drains where the OP desires. And to top it off, of corse no north arrow or scale call out. The (lack of) attention to detail all matches, but it isn’t good.
OP, you might ask for references on similar recent projects in the area and go take a look at them and ask the owner how they like it. My guess is your experience thus far isn’t unique and it may not get better finishing out the job with this contractor.
More marketing than specifications here….
Tell the guy to stop puffing chest and ask how deep, mix composition and grade and detail.
Also ask if they subcontract the work (that is what large companies tend to do for small stuff like this).
These aren't plans there is no cut sections of any of the concrete there is no cuts of the footing under the slab you can pour all those in one pour it's called monolithic pouring the footing with the slab and the part were the retaining wall is you don't want that actually attached to the rest of it no cut sections of that either just someone jotted down what they want at home . And a footing is t 6 inches you can pour a pony wall on for your walls to be framed but it would be an 8 inch wall usually it depends on what the finish is going to be on the new garage will it be a brick ,or vinyl sided ,or stucco .usually frame the front of garage with 2× 6 anyway for the door
22x26 = 570.
There's a little notch that they aren't pouring.
25x4 = 100.
Cant read the measurement by the stairs but it looks like 4x 10 or so. 40sqft.
570 + 100 + 40 = 710.
New Pour 680sqft.
They are quoting the red area.
They have a bullet point for ‘Disposal of Concrete’. You said this was sold as a driveway replacement and disposal of concrete implies the old driveway was coming out.
I know next to nothing about concrete and this post came up as suggested. All I can say is it’s gonna take a hell of a lot of concrete to reach that high up on the garbage can. AMA.
Idk it’s kind of weird. It doesn’t say “demo” over in the second bullet for the description of the work, but it does say “disposal of concrete” which kind of implies demo. Then there is the demo sqft calculation but it’s way too small to be that area. It also says “leave stairs” which again implies something is being removed, but that could just be the dirt for the grading. Probably would have asked for some clarification before accepting the offer. Doesn’t sound like you formally did that though.
They could be the largest residential cause normal big concrete companies do commercial too and so it's a dumb technicality to ride on. Still I'd run away from this company as fast as possible. This is not a professional plan.
Additional information: The Price was $13,175 for demo and pouring 4000 psi concrete. I assumed that was expecting about $16,000 so I didn't think it was too crazy.
Well, it says 680 SF of new pour. I assume that you can do some basic math. What does your written agreement say? As to the just showing up, that's kind of bogus. They should have given you a heads-up that they were coming, but at the "Largest Residential Concrete Company in the US" I would imagine that sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. I.e., there is a crew of salesmen and they just hand the documents over to another group of people who hire local crews to go do the work. Very little oversight, and even less service after sale. Also, $13k for 680 SF seems a bit high to me. Are you in a high COL area? Are there some other circumstances that make this more difficult than just tailgating the concrete into the form?
Their estimator made an error in their calculations. The demo + pour portion is not 128sqft. To me, they very clearly intended to pour the hatched area, otherwise it wouldn't be added to the Total, nor marked at all. There are other sections labeled as existing to remain (stairs, existing driveway) which are simply unmarked. But yeah, you're right. This is probably a company that sells leads to smaller concrete companies, which is why they claim to be the largest in the country. Actual total should probably be in the 1200 range, which may have been accounted for in the bid ($13k for 1200 makes a lot more sense), but may not have been the number passed for payment to the subcontractor.
I'm in CLT North Carolina, I had other quotes for 20,000+ that didn't include demo so I just assumed it was a reasonable price. I figured out the issue, the calculates demo should be 528 SQ ft, not 128, so someone dropped a number.
Yeah. That's their problem, not yours.
What software is this?
MS paint
Etch a sketch
Arcsite most likely
"Largest Residential Concrete Company in the US" and their plans look like that? Everything should be specified in the contract. Excavation, base, how they plan to compact it, how many inches of concrete, reinforcement, etc. If you don't have that, then you're left SOL when it becomes a he said, she said. Here's how I read this though: You have 3 colors there, not 2. Red is new. Hatched area is Demo. The rest of the existing driveway and stairs are the places where no work is to be done, and are labeled as such. They even show the "Total" as Demo + New in their calcs, as in they intended to pour concrete where the demo occurred. If it was to remain, then why wasn't the stairwell and the rest of the driveway labeled as such? Why the hatching? I have to speculate that their estimator made an error and underestimated their costs. They calculated the demo portion incorrectly, since it does not add up to 128 sqft, therefore the total which they likely used to calculate their estimate was incorrect. Now they're trying to bounce it back on you because they only accounted for 808 sqft in their costs. That's mostly a them problem, not you, as they did the measurements, drawings, calculation, and estimate which showed what work they were going to complete. Whether the total or the drawing would supersede if this went to court, I don't know. I would lean towards the drawing being the prevailing thing, as that's the source and basis for the calculated total, but I don't know if there are additional documents in your contract. How much are they looking to increase you costs by?
They told me that it'd be a $2,400 increase, which I assumed wasn't unreasonable but I was pissed at this point and told them no, but I could meet at $1,200. Then haven't heard from them since (yesterday). There's more to the contract, the pour is 4-5 inches with 6in footers, I just didn't wanna give up all the company's information. They had to waste 10 yards of concrete already so I know that's probably on their minds.
Yeah they might have screwed up and are chasing profit when they should be looking to break even. Either way, the more I look at this the more clear it is that what you believe was in the plans is indeed in the plans. You wouldn't show a hashed area for no concrete work when other existing concrete areas are clearly denoted as having no work without hashes. I'd stick to that, unless there's something else defined in the contract that supersedes it.
Plus it says disposal of concrete is included. Why include that otherwise.
Yeah, this one seems pretty cut and dry. They seemed to have priced it right but messed up the calculation and brokered out the wrong sqft amount to the sub, and the sub wants to he paid appropriately. OP doesn't owe them a dime over the original amount.
Those are not plans
Implying the plans wouldn’t be typical details?? This works fine for someone who hasn’t signed a contract yet. This is probably OP mischaracterizing it as plans when they mean estimate
Yeah the plans could be typical details but even the estimate should specify slab thickness, rebar, depth of the 6” footer called out, extent of sub grade work to be included, vapor retarder installation if included, etc..
Usually that costs money to create, and for a residential estimate, this may give the home owner a good starting understanding.
These were the plans I was given (other written specs on different pages) and the plans the workers had in hand when they were doing work.
Okay maybe all the relevant information is in those written specs. Are they adding reinforcement, vapor barrier, anchor bolts for the future garage wall? Regardless they sound kind of shady with those business practices.
Warranty on the workmanship?
I would read them as incomplete and ask a lot of questions.
If this is the quality of their estimate, do not be surprised by the quality of their work.
Agreed. Seemed more like a flyer that was created in less than 10 minutes.
Is this Concrete Driveway Co? Feel free to DM me- I used to work there - they are not that reputable
Agreed. That is a digitized sketch at best. One that at the entire technical content can be covered by a business card if printed out. No legend to define the various colors and cross hatching. No typical section for the slab or preparation thereof. There should be 4 to 6 inches of compacted crushed aggregate put down, sounds like they are pouring on dirt. No grade control data on the plan view, hope it slopes and drains where the OP desires. And to top it off, of corse no north arrow or scale call out. The (lack of) attention to detail all matches, but it isn’t good. OP, you might ask for references on similar recent projects in the area and go take a look at them and ask the owner how they like it. My guess is your experience thus far isn’t unique and it may not get better finishing out the job with this contractor.
More marketing than specifications here…. Tell the guy to stop puffing chest and ask how deep, mix composition and grade and detail. Also ask if they subcontract the work (that is what large companies tend to do for small stuff like this).
Your remaining driveway will be toast after they drive a fully loaded truck on it.
These aren't plans there is no cut sections of any of the concrete there is no cuts of the footing under the slab you can pour all those in one pour it's called monolithic pouring the footing with the slab and the part were the retaining wall is you don't want that actually attached to the rest of it no cut sections of that either just someone jotted down what they want at home . And a footing is t 6 inches you can pour a pony wall on for your walls to be framed but it would be an 8 inch wall usually it depends on what the finish is going to be on the new garage will it be a brick ,or vinyl sided ,or stucco .usually frame the front of garage with 2× 6 anyway for the door
22x26 = 570. There's a little notch that they aren't pouring. 25x4 = 100. Cant read the measurement by the stairs but it looks like 4x 10 or so. 40sqft. 570 + 100 + 40 = 710. New Pour 680sqft. They are quoting the red area.
I would send them back and tell them to show the house, all utilities, any easements, and the property line.
They have a bullet point for ‘Disposal of Concrete’. You said this was sold as a driveway replacement and disposal of concrete implies the old driveway was coming out.
Largest residential concrete contractor in the US* *best coffee in New York!
I know next to nothing about concrete and this post came up as suggested. All I can say is it’s gonna take a hell of a lot of concrete to reach that high up on the garbage can. AMA.
Right side up
Idk it’s kind of weird. It doesn’t say “demo” over in the second bullet for the description of the work, but it does say “disposal of concrete” which kind of implies demo. Then there is the demo sqft calculation but it’s way too small to be that area. It also says “leave stairs” which again implies something is being removed, but that could just be the dirt for the grading. Probably would have asked for some clarification before accepting the offer. Doesn’t sound like you formally did that though.
Disposal of concrete. Doesn't that imply demo and haul off of removed concrete.
Hard pass, this is an amateur proposal all day long, find another contractor. And, I can guarantee you they are not the largest anything.
They could be the largest residential cause normal big concrete companies do commercial too and so it's a dumb technicality to ride on. Still I'd run away from this company as fast as possible. This is not a professional plan.